Muslim-Christian Dialogue

[christianuk]

I am a born-again Christian of many years.

It is obvious that Islam and Christianity contradict one another so both can't be true.

I would like to explore this issue.

:shade:

[christianuk]

So, while I find ALL the NT makes perfect sense
Muslims claim the NT is corrupted.

At the end of the day if a motor repair manual fixes your car every time who can say it is no good and must be rejected as wrong,
then that doesn't make sense.

I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in "other tongues" every day.

Your comments?

[YusufNoor]

So, while I find ALL the NT makes perfect sense
Muslims claim the NT is corrupted.

At the end of the day if a motor repair manual fixes your car every time who can say it is no good and must be rejected as wrong,
then that doesn't make sense.

I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in "other tongues" every day.

Your comments?

the fact that you are delusional and feel that you speak in "tongues every day", just means that you should see a doctor. it has nothing to do with religion.

it isn't just Muslims who say the NT is corrupted, it happens to be an established fact.

if you have questions about Islam, perchance there are those willing to discuss them with you.

if you are here to proselytize, you've come to the wrong place!

[Scimitar]

oh dear, paranoid delusional Christian comes to Islamic forum ... speaking of NT, not realising that book has many "versions" each fundamentally different in content
...rich claim from him. OP shoulda put way more though into that one lol.

Speaking in tongues huh? Lalilulelololololol - what does that mean? :D

Scimi

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[muslimah bird]

So, while I find ALL the NT makes perfect senseMuslims claim the NT is corrupted.At the end of the day if a motor repair manual fixes your car every time who can say it is no good and must be rejected as wrong,then that doesn't make sense.I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in "other tongues" every day.Your comments?

as bro yusuf noor said , proselytising isnt allowed in the forum. If you have questions regarding islam , feel free to ask

[greenhill]

The major one is the concept of God.

What is your belief?

Muslims believe in Allah as The God, the One and Only, the Supreme, the Judge the Eternal and the list goes on.... and Jesus, like Muhammad, Moses, Adam peace be to them all and the rest are prophets of Allah who had specific tasks to carry out.


:peace:

[christianuk]

What are your qualifications?

[christianuk]

I am a christian.
Born again in 1978
Filled with the Holy Spirit roughly 18 months later.
Blessed beyond what any non-Christian could/can imagine.
Full of Life!

Tell me this:

Where are the sayings of Jesus that Islam accepts?
After all, He (PBUH) is one of your prophets.

Regards

Neil

[Insaanah]

Muslim-Christian Dialogue

Believe it or not, there's a book with the very same name. Here it is, you should read it:

http://www.sultan.org/books/muslimchristianialogue.pdf

At the end of the day if a motor repair manual fixes your car every time who can say it is no good and must be rejected as wrong

That is because you think it's fixed, but the major fault is still there. It is entirely possible to drive an unroadworthy car, thinking it's ok, or it's been fixed, but the major underlying problem hasn't gone away, and is a dangerous threat to the car.

Your comments?

Our comments, are to invite you to belief in one true God, with no associates whatsoever in His Exclusive Divinity, be that in the form of a son, or incarnations of God (something Christianity and Hinduism share in common), or in any other way. No sons, no 3-in-1's, Just purely One. Glorified and Exalted be He above all that is falsely attributed to Him.

• There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.
• He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.
• He is eternal and does not die, in any way.
• He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.
• There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.
• He did not and does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.
• He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.
• There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense of the word One.

Where are the sayings of Jesus that Islam accepts?

In the translations of verses from the Qur'an below, I have highlighted the words of Jesus (peace be upon him) in red.

And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): "Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.

And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."

But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: "Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah?" The disciples said: "We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Our Lord! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him whom Thou hast sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth)". (3:49-53)

**********************************************

And when I inspired the disciples, (saying): "Believe in Me and in My messenger", they said: "We believe. Bear witness that we are Muslims."

When the disciples said: "O Jesus, son of Mary! Is thy Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven?" He said: "Fear Allah, if ye are true believers."

(They said: ) "We wish to eat thereof, that we may satisfy our hearts and know that thou hast spoken truth to us, and that thereof we may be witnesses."

Jesus, son of Mary, said: "O Allah, our Lord! Send down for us a table spread with food from heaven, that it may be a feast for us, for the first of us and for the last of us, and a sign from Thee. Give us sustenance, for Thou art the Best of Sustainers."

Allah said: "Lo! I send it down for you. And whoso disbelieves afterwards from amongst you, him surely will I punish with a punishment wherewith I have not punished any of (My) creatures."

And when Allah will say: "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?"

He will say: "Be Glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then You knew it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your Mind. Lo! You, only You, are the Knower of Things Hidden.

I spoke unto them only that which You commanded me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me, You were the Watcher over them. You are Witness over all things.

If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! you, only You, are the Mighty, the Wise." (5:111-118)

**********************************************

They surely disbelieve who say: "Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary." The Messiah (himself) said: "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Lo! whoso ascribes partners unto Allah, for him Allah has forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For the wrong-doers there will be no helpers. (5:72)

**********************************************

He spoke: "Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and has appointed me a Prophet, and has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, and (has made me) dutiful toward my mother, and has not made me arrogant, unblest. Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"

Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: Be! and it is.

[Jesus said],: "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the right path."(19:30-36)

**********************************************

When Jesus came with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), he said: "I have come unto you with wisdom, and to make plain some of that concerning which ye differ. So fear Allah, and obey me. Lo! Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him. This is a right path."
But the factions among them differed. Then woe unto those who do wrong from the doom of a painful day. (43:63-65)

**********************************************

And when Jesus son of Mary said: "O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name is the Praised One - Ahmad." Yet when he has come unto them with clear proofs, they say: "This is mere magic." (61:6)

**********************************************

O ye who believe! Be Allah's helpers, even as Jesus son of Mary said unto the disciples: "Who are my helpers for Allah?" They said: "We are Allah's helpers." And a party of the Children of Israel believed, while a party disbelieved. Then We strengthened those who believed against their foe, and they became the uppermost. (61:14)

End of quotes from Qur'an.

Allah has sent a succession of prophets to people throughout the ages, to convey His message to them, and with guidance to show people how He wants them to live and worship Him. Muslims believe in all the prophets God sent, and do not reject or blaspheme any of them, from Adam, to the last and final prophet, Muhammad, peace be on them all. They were the purest and noblest of humanity and were not divine in any way. God sent all the prophets with the same message and not different messages. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to God and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to God as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying God and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from God.

So Islam is not a new faith but is the same Ultimate Truth that God revealed to all prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them). Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, and the meaning loosely translates as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, all races and all peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

With time, the message got forgotten or corrupted. So people started worshipping other gods along with Him, made idols, said that God begot a son, said that certain people were incarnations of God, some rejected belief in God altogether, while others elevated the status of some prophets to divine, or at the other end rejected or blasphemed some of the prophets. Whenever God's message got distorted by people, or forgotten, a new messenger was sent, not with any new or changed message, but reinforcing the actual message that God sent all the messengers with, the actual core beliefs that people were taught from the beginning of humanity, confirming the true parts of previous teachings and scriptures, and correcting wrong beliefs and misconceptions that had crept in.

God required that whenever He sent a new messenger, that messenger should be followed along with any new scripture given to him. This chain of messengers culminates in prophet Muhammad (peace on him), who is the last and final prophet and messenger. Since his prophethood, Gods message is available unchanged and unadulterated, for the entire world, until the end of time. He wasn't sent as prophet and messenger for a specific group of people and specific time (e.g. as Moses and Jesus were to the Children of Israel), but he was sent for all the world, for all time, until the Day of Judgement. Thus he is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind, for now, and for all time to come.

Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the most noble and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we deify him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he was crucified. He'll return to earth near the end of time.

Peace.

[christianuk]

Well that's a lot of work!
And that's it?

So you have confined the 4 Bible Gospels to the bin?

Why do Muslims then comment on the "Comforter" as being Mohammed if it's not included your "scripture"?

It doesn't make sense to me.

Neil

[Mango]

You asked about 'Isa (Jesus), we gave you the verses of the Quran that talk about him. Mohammad is included in the Quran, but not in those verses because they are about 'Isa

[dcalling]

•There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.

Agreed

•He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

Quran did say that Allah can have a son.

•He is eternal and does not die, in any way.

Agree

•He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

Agree with first part, the second part is your own assertion. I think Quran talk about he want us to worship him.

•There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.

Here comes the joke I have with my christian friends when I was an athesit. If God is all powerful, can he kill himself? NO! So God is the most powerful, but not all powerful.

•He did not and does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

Again, that is your own assertion. God is very powerful and he can do almost anything (aside from killing himself, or do unholly stuff).

•He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.

I think Quran also talk about holy spirit. It is not Angle, not jinn, so what is it? God is so powerfull yet unknown, he can do many things we don't understand.

•There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense of the word One.

Yet both the OT and Quran use "WE" when God speaks. I would say follow the rules of God and don't try to understand God totally.

[Zafran]

The only thing I can say is that this has been done many times before - Maybe looking at previous threads of "christian-Muslim dialogues" and seeing where they usually end might stop you from wasting your time. Most of what you say has been talked about before. This wont be a nice thread.

bye.

[greenhill]

Where are the sayings of Jesus that Islam accepts?

Sis Insaanah listed some items ...

And that's it?

So you have confined the 4 Bible Gospels to the bin?

We have confined nothing anywhere. You asked what the Qur'an says about Jesus and that is some of it (not all of it). Please look up the Qur'an and find it yourself. We are just saying that the OTs are not entirely accurate.

:peace:

[Muhaba]

Your book (the Bible) is full of contradictions, inconsistencies, and vulgar statements that prove that it is not the uncorrupt Word of God and is therefore not reliable. The following is from Wikipedia:

The study of inconsistencies in the Bible has a long history. In the 17th century, Spinoza considered the Bible to be, "...a book rich in contradictions."[38] In the 18th century, Thomas Paine in his Age of Reason compiled many of the Bible's self-contradictions. And in 1860, William Henry Burr produced a list of 144 self-contradictions in the Bible.

Biblical Criticim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...y_of_the_Bible

authors such as Raymond Brown have presented arguments that the Gospels actually contradict each other in various important respects and on various important details.[20] W. D. Davies and E. P. Sanders state that: "on many points, especially about Jesus’ early life, the evangelists were ignorant … they simply did not know, and, guided by rumour, hope or supposition, did the best they could".[21] More critical scholars see the nativity stories either as completely fictional accounts,[22] or at least constructed from traditions that predate the Gospels.[23][24]

For example, many versions of the Bible specifically point out that the most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses did not include Mark 16:9-20, i.e., the Gospel of Mark originally ended at Mark 16:8, and additional verses were added a few hundred years later. This is known as the "Markan Appendix.

Internal Consistency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible

The average NT manuscript is about 200 pages, and in all, there are about 1.3 million pages of text. No two manuscripts are identical, except in the smallest fragments, and the many manuscripts which preserve New Testament texts differ among themselves in many respects, with some estimates of 200,000 to 300,000 differences among the various manuscripts.[20] According to Bart Ehrman:


Most changes are careless errors that are easily recognized and corrected. Christian scribes often made mistakes simply because they were tired or inattentive or, sometimes, inept. Indeed, the single most common mistake in our manuscripts involves "orthography", significant for little more than showing that scribes in antiquity could spell no better than most of us can today. In addition, we have numerous manuscripts in which scribes have left out entire words, verses, or even pages of a book, presumably by accident. Sometimes scribes rearranged the words on the page, for example, by leaving out a word and then reinserting it later in the sentence.[21]

Textual tradition of the New Testament

Biblical inerrancy has been criticized on the grounds that many statements that are found in Scripture, if taken literally, rather than phenomenologically, are untenable or contradictory. Many (although not all) of these instances, involve the Bible's relationship with history or science. Inerrancy is argued to be a falsifiable proposition: if the Bible is found to contain any mistakes or contradictions, the proposition of strict inerrancy has been refuted.

Criticism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

See also 1000 contradictions in the bible http://wardoons.wordpress.com/debate/

So, the bible is full of contradictions and isn't reliable. There are clear errors in the bible. Can the book of God contain errors? If it does, then how do you know which part is correct and can be trusted and which is an error? How do you know that the doctrine of trinity is correct? How do you know anything in the bible is correct???

Basing one's faith on such a book is clearly a terrible mistake.

[Muhaba]

Here is a debate about inconsistencies in the Bible. http://www.debate.org/debates/The-Bi...butes-et-al/1/

[greenhill]

Why do Muslims then comment on the "Comforter" as being Mohammed if it's not included your "scripture"?

The prophet is known by many names.

"And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds." (21:107)

To give them glad tidings and show them the way to the rewards of the hereafter in a way that showed patience, fairness and humane.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you christianuk; welcome to the forum from a Catholic,

I have a great respect for the Muslims on this forum, they take prayer, fasting, modesty, charity and putting Allah first in all things. When I saw the title, I had hoped to see a thread that talked about, how we can get on together, despite our differences.

When we use our scriptures to change ourselves, we struggle towards a greater good, when we bash other people on the head with our book, we seem to head for a greater conflict.

Beyond a doubt, we are all created by the same God, we will be judged by the way we judge other people, somehow, there must be a path towards peace, despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding,

Eric

[ardianto]

There are many things in Christianity that make me so curious. Sometime I asked my Christian relatives or friends when I had a question, but I never want to intervene Christian belief.

There are many differences between one religion and other religions. If we have a question about other religion we can ask directly to a believer in this religion, but we must ask with clean heart without intention to intervene other people belief.

Of course, there are similarities too between one religion and other religions such as kindness to the other, obligation to help the needy people, etc. this is the area where we can build a dialogue and co-operation.

:)

[christianuk]

I will get back to you later.
Thank you

Neil

[dcalling]

Most of those have simple explanations, some hard to explain ones (how many people are in the grave) doesn't contradict the meaning of the Bible (i.e. Love God and Love your neighbors). It will be a huge blow if you can find anything that contradicts that. There are many contradictions in the Quran like that too, but most of them are easy to explain.

I had many PM with Woodrow, who think Torah is almost correct but NT is totally corrupt, I am researching the stuff from Woodrow, but I doubt anything will really contradict the ultimate law of God. It is very easy to understand the 10 commandments on the Love God Love Others rule, and you can see how consistent God is. Any book/saying contradicts that is not from God.

Your book (the Bible) is full of contradictions, inconsistencies, and vulgar statements that prove that it is not the uncorrupt Word of God and is therefore not reliable. The following is from Wikipedia:

See also 1000 contradictions in the bible No LINK ALLOWED
So, the bible is full of contradictions and isn't reliable. There are clear errors in the bible. Can the book of God contain errors? If it does, then how do you know which part is correct and can be trusted and which is an error? How do you know that the doctrine of trinity is correct? How do you know anything in the bible is correct???

Basing one's faith on such a book is clearly a terrible mistake.

[Mango]

The Quran did not say that Allah can have a son. Please read the Quran before you make assumptions. Thank you

[dcalling]

The Quran did not say that Allah can have a son. Please read the Quran before you make assumptions. Thank you

From Quran.com, 39.4: If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah , the One, the Prevailing.

Allah can do what ever he wants, including who goes to heaven and hell (the second part is according to the board members, have not verified from Quran yet).

[christianuk]

dear dreamin
wake up!
IF YOUR BROTHER DIED AND A PILE OF WILLS were found at his bedside
could it be that his last will and testament could be in the pile?

the answer can only be yes or no.
yes?

neil

[christianuk]

leaving aside the extreme doctrinal differences between islam and christianity which of these are obnoxious to muslims?

7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not
given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tts 1:8
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

seems good to me.

regards

neil

[Insaanah]

Greetings christianuk

Well that's a lot of work!

What is?

And that's it?

Meaning?

So you have confined the 4 Bible Gospels to the bin?

The original scripture, given to Jesus (peace be upon him) by God, was called the Injeel. This was the word of God, not the words of any human. The ones we have today, are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not God. The injeel is no longer in existence, having being mixed with the words of man, parts changed/edited/deleted/forgotten/corrupted. There may be fragments of the truth remaining interspersed with what else is there. Some people, of their own volition, will perceive as a rough guide, whatever agrees with the Qur'an, as having an element of truth. But Allah knows best.

Fact is, we now have an unchanged scripture with us, from God, 100% the word of God, no word from any man or any scribe in it. It is the last and final scripture of God, the last and final testament, the exact words revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel. It's message is for the entire world, until the world ends. It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, intact. Thus it is fully preserved with no word in it coming from any human. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans - thus it supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form. It has no versions or editions. Millions of people from all over the world have memorised and they all recite word for word the same thing. It contains practical guidance on how to live our life, how to worship God, stories of previous prophets from which to learn lessons, warnings, rules, comfort, solace, good tidings, and in it God corrects any misconceptions people may have about Him or His prophets. It tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what He told His prophets to teach people since the very beginning. That message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original and only message.

This is the criterion, and this is the book which must now be followed. As Muslims, we believe in the original Scriptures given to Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them), i.e. the Torah, and the Injeel, as well as the book given to David (peace be upon him), and any revelations given to any Prophet from their Lord, even though we may never have seen these scriptures. Indeed this is an article of faith for a Muslim. To not believe in these, renders one outside the fold of Islam, it is that important. Now that the last and final testament is with us, (and has been for the past 1400 years), we have no need to look at scriptures that have been corrupted.

As to the issue of the comforter, it's mentioned on page 94 of the link I gave you. I believe there's one reference in the bible to the comforter being "in you", but many other references which outweigh this, which Prophet Muhammad (peace, salutations and blessings of Allah be upon him) fulfils. Remember, when you say "comforter", you're not looking at the original Biblical language, but an English translation. "Comforter" is one meaning, but it has other meanings as other translations of the same verses show, including advocate, helper, and others.

There may have been threads on this in the past. If I find any, I'll post the links, and others may have links on paraclete/comforter too.

Peace.

[dcalling]

The injeel is no longer in existence ....

Not even the Quran has such claims. If you go to muslim-reponse.com (a Muslim site), muslim-responses.com/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book_
you will find Ibn kather's comment about how Muhammad passed a mourning Jew and asked him if the Tawrah talk about him, and the son of the Jewish man said yes, in witness of multiple people (including Abu Bkar etc). So at least in Muhammad's time the Tawrah is not corrupted (verified by Muhammad himself).

And the comment below that one, "Ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d.311 A.H.-923 A.D.) comments on the verse: "God says to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that if you are in doubt about the truthfulness of what We told you in Revelations - that the children of Israel had not differed concerning your prophet hood before you were sent by God as an Apostle to His people, for they found you prophesied in their scripture, and they knew you from the description of you given in the Torah and Injil - you must confer with those who read the sacred book before you, that is, the people of the Torah and the people of the Gospel, such as Abdullah Ibn Salam and those who, like him, were honest and had faith in you: do not ask those who are dishonest or are unbelievers." (At-Tabari, Jami', vol. II, p. 115)

If the Injeel is indeed corrupt beyond reorganization, the whole comment is wrong (how can Muhammad confirm with a corrupted Injil?)

I would say a lot of the Torah/Gospel is totally corrupted is added by later Muslims, not by Muhammad and the people of his generation (not even at 923 AD when at-Tabari made the comment).

[YusufNoor]

Not even the Quran has such claims. If you go to muslim-reponse.com (a Muslim site), muslim-responses.com/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book_
you will find Ibn kather's comment about how Muhammad passed a mourning Jew and asked him if the Tawrah talk about him, and the son of the Jewish man said yes, in witness of multiple people (including Abu Bkar etc). So at least in Muhammad's time the Tawrah is not corrupted (verified by Muhammad himself).

And the comment below that one, "Ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d.311 A.H.-923 A.D.) comments on the verse: "God says to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that if you are in doubt about the truthfulness of what We told you in Revelations - that the children of Israel had not differed concerning your prophet hood before you were sent by God as an Apostle to His people, for they found you prophesied in their scripture, and they knew you from the description of you given in the Torah and Injil - you must confer with those who read the sacred book before you, that is, the people of the Torah and the people of the Gospel, such as Abdullah Ibn Salam and those who, like him, were honest and had faith in you: do not ask those who are dishonest or are unbelievers." (At-Tabari, Jami', vol. II, p. 115)

If the Injeel is indeed corrupt beyond reorganization, the whole comment is wrong (how can Muhammad confirm with a corrupted Injil?)

I would say a lot of the Torah/Gospel is totally corrupted is added by later Muslims, not by Muhammad and the people of his generation (not even at 923 AD when at-Tabari made the comment).

that's not correct.

[YusufNoor]

dear dreamin
wake up!
IF YOUR BROTHER DIED AND A PILE OF WILLS were found at his bedside
could it be that his last will and testament could be in the pile?

the answer can only be yes or no.
yes?

neil

unless it was witnessed to, it could be anything.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Mark was not written 'till between 65 and 75 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Matthew was not written 'till around 85 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Luke was not written 'till around 85 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) John was not written 'till around 95 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

there are only 7 letters in the NT believed to be "authentic", the were written by Saul. Saul claims to have preached a different gospel than that taught by Jesus and the apostles.

it's elementary, my dear Watson, the NT is a fabrication.

[dcalling]

Not even the Quran has such claims. If you go to muslim-reponse.com (a Muslim site), muslim-responses.com/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book_
you will find Ibn kather's comment about how Muhammad passed a mourning Jew and asked him if the Tawrah talk about him, and the son of the Jewish man said yes, in witness of multiple people (including Abu Bkar etc). So at least in Muhammad's time the Tawrah is not corrupted (verified by Muhammad himself).

And the comment below that one, "Ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d.311 A.H.-923 A.D.) comments on the verse: "God says to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that if you are in doubt about the truthfulness of what We told you in Revelations - that the children of Israel had not differed concerning your prophet hood before you were sent by God as an Apostle to His people, for they found you prophesied in their scripture, and they knew you from the description of you given in the Torah and Injil - you must confer with those who read the sacred book before you, that is, the people of the Torah and the people of the Gospel, such as Abdullah Ibn Salam and those who, like him, were honest and had faith in you: do not ask those who are dishonest or are unbelievers." (At-Tabari, Jami', vol. II, p. 115)

If the Injeel is indeed corrupt beyond reorganization, the whole comment is wrong (how can Muhammad confirm with a corrupted Injil?)

I would say a lot of the Torah/Gospel is totally corrupted is added by later Muslims, not by Muhammad and the people of his generation (not even at 923 AD when at-Tabari made the comment).

that's not correct.

Are you saying the quoted texts are incorrect?

[dcalling]

Again all that is your word (or you got that from somewhere other than Quran or Hadith).

I found another site, quranfromallah.com/Topics/Quran-Gospel.html, that is also an Islam site.

I only copied a couple of what the Quran says about the people of the book, all of them are asking people of the book to follow their scripture and judge by their scripture:


Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)
And if only they had acted according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course, but many of them do evil deeds. (Quran 5:66)
Say "O people of the Scripture! You have nothing till you act according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord." Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Quran 5:68)
Say: "O people of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed from the Right Path." (Quran 5:77)

There are some others, but none of Muhammad's sayings resemble what you said. I would say the stuff you said are not based upon the Quran and Hadith, but something else you researched yourself. So while Muhammad clearly states that people of the book should not exceed the limits of their book, should act according to the scripture, you are saying all that is corrupt (so basically contradicting him).

unless it was witnessed to, it could be anything.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Mark was not written 'till between 65 and 75 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Matthew was not written 'till around 85 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Luke was not written 'till around 85 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) John was not written 'till around 95 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

there are only 7 letters in the NT believed to be "authentic", the were written by Saul. Saul claims to have preached a different gospel than that taught by Jesus and the apostles.

it's elementary, my dear Watson, the NT is a fabrication.

[Signor]

From Quran.com, 39.4: If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah , the One, the Prevailing.

Allah has also made it clear:

112:3 "He begets not, nor was He begotten;

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all;

Do we bring glory to God by arguing?

How do we strive to live together in peace with our differences?

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding,

Eric

[YusufNoor]

Again all that is your word (or you got that from somewhere other than Quran or Hadith).

if you are talking about my post, it is the concurrence of the majority of Christian Bible scholars.

[Karl]

I am a born-again Christian of many years.

It is obvious that Islam and Christianity contradict one another so both can't be true.

I would like to explore this issue.

:shade:

Monotheism is like a tree with one trunk, it has many roots and branches. Allah is Arabic for "The God" meaning the Almighty the Greatest. So I don't see a point in fighting over who is God. The Almighty is God. Jesus (PBUH) was a man and he was mortal. We don't really know what happened to him, some believe he went to Rome and settled down and had a family. If he had the power to turn water into wine, raise the dead, cure the sick and do other miraculous things he is not going to let a bunch of nutters execute him is he?

[dcalling]

if you are talking about my post, it is the concurrence of the majority of Christian Bible scholars.

I am quoting Quran while you are quoting from majority of Christian Bible scholars :-) I think we have archived what Eric was asking for.

[greenhill]

I only copied a couple of what the Quran says about the people of the book, all of them are asking people of the book to follow their scripture and judge by their scripture:


"Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)
And if only they had acted according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course, but many of them do evil deeds. "(Quran 5:66)

Yes, for the times before the next scripture was sent down. For those who followed the Torah (in its unadulterated form) before the arrival of the Bible after which it is no longer valid and again for those who followed the Bible until the arrival of the Qur'an after which it is no longer valid.

Sahih International
"That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. "(2:141)

The above talks about the previous scriptures and how they will be judged.

Sahih International
"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed."(2:87)

So each messenger had a message to deliver and it according to the verse, it largely fell on deaf ears and they decided to maintain the old scriptures as opposed to embrace the new ones.


:peace:

[dcalling]

Thank you Green hill

Yes, for the times before the next scripture was sent down. For those who followed the Torah (in its unadulterated form) before the arrival of the Bible after which it is no longer valid and again for those who followed the Bible until the arrival of the Qur'an after which it is no longer valid.

Again that is your own explanation, almost like inserting that in force into Quran (all my quotes of Quran clearly shown that Muhammad himself think the Bible is not corrupt). The other poster is worse, put the Christian scholars above Quran (I have no problem with it of course :p, it is all research, but are Muslims supposed to do that? other books above Quran?)

Sahih International
"That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. "(2:141)

I will check the context on this. from the text alone it looks like it confirm the parts I quoted, i.e. people of the book will be judged by their book.

The above talks about the previous scriptures and how they will be judged.

Sahih International
"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed."(2:87)

So each messenger had a message to deliver and it according to the verse, it largely fell on deaf ears and they decided to maintain the old scriptures as opposed to embrace the new ones.


:peace:

Again it almost sounds like you are trying to twist scripture. The message of God is uniform, contains nothing new (I believe it is said in Quran). The verse simply said people rejected some prophets and killed others while God let them to warn the worlds.

Thank you and Peace be upon you.

[greenhill]

...put the Christian scholars above Quran

I don't think so. He is merely quoting what Christian scholars have said about the Bible and when it was put together (or something like that). ^o)


:peace:

[greenhill]

Again it almost sounds like you are trying to twist scripture. The message of God is uniform, contains nothing new

Yes uniform, yet progressive. Each according to the times and the development of the human race especially with regard to reasoning.


:peace:

[YusufNoor]

I am quoting Quran while you are quoting from majority of Christian Bible scholars :-) I think we have archived what Eric was asking for.

not being a Muslim, "quoting sources" isn't going to help you. when it comes to translations, you have no idea what is accurate. when it comes to "other sources", you have no idea what is correct and what is misguidance.

my advice to you is to ignore other sites. if you have questions, ask people here. they will give you answers, but those won't be based on your "other sites".

based upon your comments and quotes, you have no idea what the Qur'an or the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, says about "the scriptures". NONE! you are way off base.

it is a given fact that what what you call the Torah and Gospel ARE NOT the Taurat and the Injeel. those terms refer to the Messages of Moses, pbuh, and Jesus, pbuh, as they delivered them and NOT the written form they now have.

as 1 example, consider An Nisa(4) ayah 157:

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

while that is NOT the best translation, the Qur'an SPECIFICALLY states that Jesus, pbuh, WAS NOT crucified! therefore, NEITHER the Qur'an NOR the Prophet, pbuh, CONFIRM what you call the gospel. the only confirm the Injeel of Jesus, pbuh. the crux of what you call "Chritianity", the cruci"fiction", is NOT part of the Injeel.

as i have said, there is scholarship that shows that neither is the Torah from the time of Moses, pbuh, nor is the NT from the time of Jesus, pbuh.

therefore, "the other poster", me, is not worse! i am just telling you the truth.

[Muhammad]

dcalling,

Please refrain from picking and choosing verses of the Qur'an and interpreting them as you wish. If you want clarification on any aspect, you can ask, but making judgements about what it contains without any knowledge, using this to argue with Muslims, is unacceptable.

An example of this is quoting verses without bothering to read the verses before and after which offer important clarification:

I only copied a couple of what the Quran says about the people of the book, all of them are asking people of the book to follow their scripture and judge by their scripture:

Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)

The very next verse reads, (translation of which is):

And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) . So judge among them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ. [5:48]

I would say a lot of the Torah/Gospel is totally corrupted is added by later Muslims, not by Muhammad and the people of his generation (not even at 923 AD when at-Tabari made the comment).

If you are asking for evidences regarding corruption of former scriptures, please see:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/do...se_the_bible__

We have also had many previous threads on this issue:

Corruption of former scriptures


1. why the old books, coming from God, are not followed. - Muslims' belief regarding the Gospel of Jesus
2. Please help with Christan arguments - Muslims' belief regarding the Gospel of Jesus
3. [post] Qur'an: Does it say the Bible is inerrant - Muslims' belief regarding the Gospel of Jesus

4. Authority of the Scriptures
5. [post] Questionnaire for the Christians
6. One night at farmer's market....!
7. Qur'an: Does it say the Bible is inerrant
8. What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?
9. Corruption of Other Scriptures
10. Christianity is Man made! PROOF!
11. Proof that the Bible is ‘Corrupted’
12. The Bible not corrupted?
13. A Question Relating to the Bible being changed
14. Why do muslims use the bible if they don't 'believe' in it?
15. In search of the Injeel
16. Is the Qur'an Preserved? - Refutation - (No change can there be in the Words of Allah.)
17. What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?


Other links
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/do...se_the_bible__
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/MuhBible.html
[Islamqa] The Gospels that are extant nowadays were written after the time of ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) and have been tampered with a great deal
[Islamqa] Does the Gospel that was written in Aramaic exist today?

If the thread is simply going to be attacks back and forth then it will be closed.

[sugaray21]

muslims like yusef estes and dr zakir naik, and also ahmad deedat are known to be extremely knowledgeable about Christianity and the bible, in fact, that's what many of their talks on youtube are about I really recommend you watch some of them because there have given talks on this very subject that you mentioned.

[dcalling]

not being a Muslim, "quoting sources" isn't going to help you. when it comes to translations, you have no idea what is accurate.

Of the verses I quoted, do you have better translation?

when it comes to "other sources", you have no idea what is correct and what is misguidance.

Both other sources are muslim site, and they quoted Quran an hadith, you can argue the hadith is not trustworthy, but Quran? They won't be too different from Quran.com, the translations can't be that far off.

my advice to you is to ignore other sites. if you have questions, ask people here. they will give you answers, but those won't be based on your "other sites".

based upon your comments and quotes, you have no idea what the Qur'an or the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, says about "the scriptures". NONE! you are way off base.

Again I am quoting Quran, the other sites Quran is also Quran, unless you can show me they are far off. And I don't blindly trust what people here told me, I trust the scriptures more.

it is a given fact that what what you call the Torah and Gospel ARE NOT the Taurat and the Injeel. those terms refer to the Messages of Moses, pbuh, and Jesus, pbuh, as they delivered them and NOT the written form they now have.

as 1 example, consider An Nisa(4) ayah 157:



while that is NOT the best translation, the Qur'an SPECIFICALLY states that Jesus, pbuh, WAS NOT crucified! therefore, NEITHER the Qur'an NOR the Prophet, pbuh, CONFIRM what you call the gospel. the only confirm the Injeel of Jesus, pbuh. the crux of what you call "Chritianity", the cruci"fiction", is NOT part of the Injeel.

Thank you, you are finally quoting the Quran. The translations doesn't affect the meaning much. Now by reading the verse you provided, what do we have? Jesus is not crucified and people have no knowledge of that (till Mohammad's time). In that case the people of Jesus' time still saw he was crucified because God make it seem so, and they wrote it in the Gospel accordingly.

as i have said, there is scholarship that shows that neither is the Torah from the time of Moses, pbuh, nor is the NT from the time of Jesus, pbuh.

therefore, "the other poster", me, is not worse! i am just telling you the truth.

Again, that is the "truth" told to you by "the other posters", not Quran, you did not provide that information to me through Quran, but from other sources.

[dcalling]

muslims like yusef estes and dr zakir naik, and also ahmad deedat are known to be extremely knowledgeable about Christianity and the bible, in fact, that's what many of their talks on youtube are about I really recommend you watch some of them because there have given talks on this very subject that you mentioned.

Thanks sugaray, I watched them before, but I think the best way is instead of trusting on some expert Christians or Muslims, ponder on the scriptures.

[dcalling]

dcalling,

Please refrain from picking and choosing verses of the Qur'an and interpreting them as you wish. If you want clarification on any aspect, you can ask, but making judgements about what it contains without any knowledge, using this to argue with Muslims, is unacceptable.

An example of this is quoting verses without bothering to read the verses before and after which offer important clarification:

The very next verse reads, (translation of which is):

And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) . So judge among them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ. [5:48]

I fund the muslim site with all the quotes regarding Bible, and I quoted only from that source and didn't quote the before/after ones, that doesn't mean I am dishonest.
And the next verse you posted, I don't understand how it says that Gospel and Torah is corrupt (if it does mean it than maybe I am hiding it intensionally, else hiding it doesn't make sense). I think the verse said God give Muhammad Quran, confirming the scripture came before and Muhaymin over old scripture.

I would think the vain desires is their desire to alter the word of God (so they can live in corrupted lifes, i.e. money, and other worldly desires).

If you are asking for evidences regarding corruption of former scriptures, please see:

LINK NOT ALLOWED

We have also had many previous threads on this issue:



If the thread is simply going to be attacks back and forth then it will be closed.

I will check all links one by one. I hope they have strong references to the scripture, because what evidence is better than the Word of God?

[sugaray21]

Ok, fair enough. But I thought they were quoting scriptures? No? You could of course assume that they were being biased, I suppose it is possible. But then would they get up in public and present the information the way they do, and be biased towards islam, when they know there are Christians in the audience who could easily contradict them, surely? There are rules for that kind of thing at those talks, especially the ones that go out for dvd etc etc. I mean, Yusef Estes was a Christi..an for decades, he knows his stuff.

[Woodrow]

So, while I find ALL the NT makes perfect sense
Muslims claim the NT is corrupted.

At the end of the day if a motor repair manual fixes your car every time who can say it is no good and must be rejected as wrong,
then that doesn't make sense.

I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in "other tongues" every day.

Your comments?

I spent 45 years as a Christian. 25 of those years as a Devout Roman Catholic and a one time seminarian. Then 20 years as a "Born Again" Assembly of God Preacher, Evangelist and Pastor. I too was filled with the Holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I lead many people to Jesus(as) with my preaching and Missionary work in the Mideast and other parts of the world.

I not only believed I led others to believe. Than one day after much prayer I came to realize I was living a lie and an error. I tried for 3 more years and continued to preach, but eventually had to admit that was hypocrisy. I had to admit I was an Atheist, no matter how deeply I wanted to believe. I hated to leave Christianity, but could not believe and could no longer bring myself to preach what I came to believe was a Lie.

I lived the next 20 years as an atheist with occasional Agnostic thoughts. At the age of 65 Allaah(swt) led me to the path of Islam and then I discovered how to truly Love Jesus(as) and live what he actually taught.

My point being do not assume that Muslims are naive and unaware of Christianity. Many of us have strong Christian roots and have Christian friends and relatives.

We are willing to live alongside Christians and even share thoughts with them in the interest of mutual respect and understanding. We are not Muslim because we hate Jesus(as) but because we Love him and do our best to live what he actually taught, which is the same message that is found in the Qur'an.

In the interest of peace among all people, let us understand that each of us alone is responsible for the results of our beliefs. We all have the duty to question all things and only follow that which we our self have verified to be true. Allaah(swt) will lead those who desire to be led. No human has the power or the right to cause another person to believe anything.

With that said I find very few things in the NT to be the Actual teachings of Jesus(as). I can not follow that which I can not verify to be true.

I do not expect you to follow that which you do not believe, grant me the same right to not follow that which I do not believe.

[dcalling]

Ok, fair enough. But I thought they were quoting scriptures? No? You could of course assume that they were being biased, I suppose it is possible. But then would they get up in public and present the information the way they do, and be biased towards islam, when they know there are Christians in the audience who could easily contradict them, surely? There are rules for that kind of thing at those talks, especially the ones that go out for dvd etc etc. I mean, Yusef Estes was a Christi..an for decades, he knows his stuff.

They quote remarkable less scripture and argue on a lot of not so useful information (in my mind), and a lot of time their argument seems way too opinionated or too board. A lot of the historic things can't be verified (i.e. the Christians were persecuted in the 1st century and can't possible preserve the Bible, or Umr burned Qurans etc., all pure speculation). We are no longer the unbelievers who needs third party evidence to prove God exists, we are people who believe in the word of God, we should be back to the fundamentals and use the word of God as our bases, because that is what we believe in.

[dcalling]

I got a huge surprise by Woodrow after I come on the board. He got a beautiful story and I would strongly encourage him to post the link so you guys can see it. It actual changed my mind about Islam. Our path were actual similar (only that I started as atheist, spend many years argue with Christians try to drag them out, and only became devoted in recent years, still have many questions, but researching the Mishnah and Quran right now).

If he did post the link to his story, I recommend everyone to take a look, I think God must have a purpose to make that story happen.

As much as I respect Woodrow, I do disagree with him that he think the entire Gospel is lost. If it is just from a Knowledge perspective, he knows more than I do (I am doing the research now on his leads, which surprise me about how much I don't know about the stuff I thought I know), however if you add in the Quran, I can't find anything in there that hints the entire Gospel is lost.

I spent 45 years as a Christian. 25 of those years as a Devout Roman Catholic and a one time seminarian. Then 20 years as a "Born Again" Assembly of God Preacher, Evangelist and Pastor. I too was filled with the Holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I lead many people to Jesus(as) with my preaching and Missionary work in the Mideast and other parts of the world.

I not only believed I led others to believe. Than one day after much prayer I came to realize I was living a lie and an error. I tried for 3 more years and continued to preach, but eventually had to admit that was hypocrisy. I had to admit I was an Atheist, no matter how deeply I wanted to believe. I hated to leave Christianity, but could not believe and could no longer bring myself to preach what I came to believe was a Lie.

I lived the next 20 years as an atheist with occasional Agnostic thoughts. At the age of 65 Allaah(swt) led me to the path of Islam and then I discovered how to truly Love Jesus(as) and live what he actually taught.

My point being do not assume that Muslims are naive and unaware of Christianity. Many of us have strong Christian roots and have Christian friends and relatives.

We are willing to live alongside Christians and even share thoughts with them in the interest of mutual respect and understanding. We are not Muslim because we hate Jesus(as) but because we Love him and do our best to live what he actually taught, which is the same message that is found in the Qur'an.

In the interest of peace among all people, let us understand that each of us alone is responsible for the results of our beliefs. We all have the duty to question all things and only follow that which we our self have verified to be true. Allaah(swt) will lead those who desire to be led. No human has the power or the right to cause another person to believe anything.

With that said I find very few things in the NT to be the Actual teachings of Jesus(as). I can not follow that which I can not verify to be true.

I do not expect you to follow that which you do not believe, grant me the same right to not follow that which I do not believe.

[Muhammad]

Greetings dcalling,

I fund the muslim site with all the quotes regarding Bible, and I quoted only from that source and didn't quote the before/after ones, that doesn't mean I am dishonest.

The problem in your approach is that you are interpreting the Qur'an using very limited knowledge and an incorrect methodology, which obviously leads to the wrong conclusions. The interpretation of the Qur'an is a vast science in the field of Islamic studies, and it makes sense that a person who is qualified in this science will be better able to grasp the intended meanings of a verse and derive rulings from it, just as a person giving you medical treatment should be a qualified doctor who has studied medicine.

As an example, the Qur'an was revealed in the Arabic language. Translations of the Qur'an are not considered to be the Qur'an - they are simply interpretations of it. When you base your conclusion on a translation, you are giving us your interpretation of an interpretation. Clearly, this is not an accurate or correct way to study the Qur'an let alone with which to contend with Muslims. You cannot use this approach to confirm or disregard a particular meaning of a verse.

There are many other aspects too, such as gathering all the related evidence on an issue, including from the hadith, which are also considered to be an authoritative source in Islam. That is why quoting one verse on its own and relying on a particular translation is unscholarly and can easily be misleading. There will often be other verses and hadith which shed more light and must be considered simultaneously for a correct understanding. Hence referring to experts (scholars of Qur'anic interpretation) is important, because they will possess the pre-requisites that many of us are lacking. Interestingly, you did quote from Islamic scholars (Ibn Kathir and Ibn Jarir at-Tabari) in your earlier post, so I hope you will not be selective in choosing the quotes that match pre-conceived conclusions.

And the next verse you posted, I don't understand how it says that Gospel and Torah is corrupt (if it does mean it than maybe I am hiding it intensionally, else hiding it doesn't make sense). I think the verse said God give Muhammad Quran, confirming the scripture came before and Muhaymin over old scripture.

I would think the vain desires is their desire to alter the word of God (so they can live in corrupted lifes, i.e. money, and other worldly desires).

Please see the earlier post by sister Insaanah, post #26, explaining how the Qur'an 'supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form'.

In the abridged tafsir of ibn Kathir it mentions:

(and Muhayminan over it) means entrusted over it, according to Sufyan Ath-Thawri who narrated it from Abu Ishaq from At-Tamimi from Ibn `Abbas. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Muhaymin is, `the Trustworthy'. Allah says that the Qur'an is trustworthy over every Divine Book that preceded it.'' This was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b, `Atiyyah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd. Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Al-Walibi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `Witness'. Mujahid, Qatadah and As-Suddi said the same. Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `dominant over the previous Scriptures'. These meanings are similar, as the word Muhaymin includes them all. Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Qur'an includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures. Allah promised that He will protect the Qur'an...
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...=768&Itemid=60

In response to what you replied to brother YusufNoor:

Now by reading the verse you provided, what do we have? Jesus is not crucified and people have no knowledge of that (till Mohammad's time). In that case the people of Jesus' time still saw he was crucified because God make it seem so, and they wrote it in the Gospel accordingly.

From the first link I gave you earlier:


Surah 4:157

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

The verse is making it clear that the crucifixion of Jesus is conjecture or corruption. The crucifixion of Jesus is clearly taught in the Gospels that we have today, thus the Qur'an is clearly in an indirect way saying that this is corrupted.

It is hilarious how some Christians try to argue back that the author of the Qur'an probably did not know that the crucifixion was mentioned in the Gospel and if he had then he probably would not have denied it.

Are Christians seriously asking us to believe that none of the Muslims during the Prophet's time knew that the gospels taught that Jesus was crucified yet at the same time believed that Islam told them to believe that the gospels in the possession of the Christians were pure and undistorted? Couldn't the Prophet have easily been exposed by Christian converts to Islam such as Salmaan al Faarisi or Maryam the Coptic slave girl sent from Egypt to the Prophet peace be upon him who would have known that the gospels taught the crucifixion while at the same time believed that Islam taught them that the gospels were undistorted? How about being exposed Christians and Jews at the time who knew what the gospels contained and should have known that Islam taught their scriptures are uncorrupted (assuming Islam teaches this) and then go expose the Prophet? Why don't we have any of these accusations from the Prophet's enemies at that time? This is something truly ridiculous to believe and requires evidence by Christian missionaries who would issue such a response.

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/ev...ish_scriptures

[جوري]

If the basic tenet of Christianity isn't something that speaks to me heart and mind then it doesn't matter the volumes of literature based on that. I am not convinced at the core then we're building a castle on water!
I don't believe in men gods or self immolating gods or gods that can't choose appropriately their apostles so they appear before charlatans.
End of story truly Christianity is monolithic in its approach to 'monotheism' not sure how much longer it can sustain the charade of monotheism when it's clearly very paganistic very multi goded!

[dcalling]

I understand what you mean, because to this day the concept of trinity is still a mystery to me. My understanding is God send his holy spirit to us, and the people full of it are prophets (Moses, etc.), Jesus stands as a special one because he is the word of God and is created directly by God almost like Adam (where Adam has no mother).

The reason I like Bible is because of the simple principals, i.e. Love God with all your heart and soul (I am sure Muslims follow this as well), and the manifest of that is that you love your neighbors.

If the basic tenet of Christianity isn't something that speaks to me heart and mind then it doesn't matter the volumes of literature based on that. I am not convinced at the core then we're building a castle on water!
I don't believe in men gods or self immolating gods or gods that can't choose appropriately their apostles so they appear before charlatans.
End of story truly Christianity is monolithic in its approach to 'monotheism' not sure how much longer it can sustain the charade of monotheism when it's clearly very paganistic very multi goded!

[dcalling]

Greetings dcalling,

The problem in your approach is that you are interpreting the Qur'an using very limited knowledge and an incorrect methodology, which obviously leads to the wrong conclusions. The interpretation of the Qur'an is a vast science in the field of Islamic studies, and it makes sense that a person who is qualified in this science will be better able to grasp the intended meanings of a verse and derive rulings from it, just as a person giving you medical treatment should be a qualified doctor who has studied medicine.

As an example, the Qur'an was revealed in the Arabic language. Translations of the Qur'an are not considered to be the Qur'an - they are simply interpretations of it. When you base your conclusion on a translation, you are giving us your interpretation of an interpretation. Clearly, this is not an accurate or correct way to study the Qur'an let alone with which to contend with Muslims. You cannot use this approach to confirm or disregard a particular meaning of a verse.

There are many other aspects too, such as gathering all the related evidence on an issue, including from the hadith, which are also considered to be an authoritative source in Islam. That is why quoting one verse on its own and relying on a particular translation is unscholarly and can easily be misleading. There will often be other verses and hadith which shed more light and must be considered simultaneously for a correct understanding. Hence referring to experts (scholars of Qur'anic interpretation) is important, because they will possess the pre-requisites that many of us are lacking. Interestingly, you did quote from Islamic scholars (Ibn Kathir and Ibn Jarir at-Tabari) in your earlier post, so I hope you will not be selective in choosing the quotes that match pre-conceived conclusions.

You are very welcome to quote what I have missed from Quran and Hadith. And if my version of the translation is not good enough, please help with more precsis translations. I can understand that sometimes it "feels" different after translation. However good translations does retain most of the meaning (I use Quran.com's translation, if you have better ones please let me know).

Please see the earlier post by sister Insaanah, post #26, explaining how the Qur'an 'supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form'.

In the abridged tafsir of ibn Kathir it mentions:

(and Muhayminan over it) means entrusted over it, according to Sufyan Ath-Thawri who narrated it from Abu Ishaq from At-Tamimi from Ibn `Abbas. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Muhaymin is, `the Trustworthy'. Allah says that the Qur'an is trustworthy over every Divine Book that preceded it.'' This was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b, `Atiyyah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd. Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Al-Walibi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `Witness'. Mujahid, Qatadah and As-Suddi said the same. Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `dominant over the previous Scriptures'. These meanings are similar, as the word Muhaymin includes them all. Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Qur'an includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures. Allah promised that He will protect the Qur'an...
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...=768&Itemid=60

Let's agree on that Quran is trustworthy, dominant over all scriptures, still, from the Quran verses talking about Torah and Gospel, it might indicate change of words, additions, mis-interpert of meanings, but no where it says Torah is totally corrupt or Gospel is lost.

In response to what you replied to brother YusufNoor:


From the first link I gave you earlier:


Surah 4:157

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

The verse is making it clear that the crucifixion of Jesus is conjecture or corruption. The crucifixion of Jesus is clearly taught in the Gospels that we have today, thus the Qur'an is clearly in an indirect way saying that this is corrupted.

It is hilarious how some Christians try to argue back that the author of the Qur'an probably did not know that the crucifixion was mentioned in the Gospel and if he had then he probably would not have denied it.

Are Christians seriously asking us to believe that none of the Muslims during the Prophet's time knew that the gospels taught that Jesus was crucified yet at the same time believed that Islam told them to believe that the gospels in the possession of the Christians were pure and undistorted? Couldn't the Prophet have easily been exposed by Christian converts to Islam such as Salmaan al Faarisi or Maryam the Coptic slave girl sent from Egypt to the Prophet peace be upon him who would have known that the gospels taught the crucifixion while at the same time believed that Islam taught them that the gospels were undistorted? How about being exposed Christians and Jews at the time who knew what the gospels contained and should have known that Islam taught their scriptures are uncorrupted (assuming Islam teaches this) and then go expose the Prophet? Why don't we have any of these accusations from the Prophet's enemies at that time? This is something truly ridiculous to believe and requires evidence by Christian missionaries who would issue such a response.

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/ev...ish_scriptures

Maybe others claim the above, I never claim that Muhammad doesn't kown Crucifixion. I will even say that Gospel might be mis-translated, small parts might be missing, small parts might be added, but if you trust the Quran, from all the Quran's saying on Torah or Gospel (from that muslim site I provided, so there might be more, please add if you have them), none says Gospel is lost or Torah is totally corrupt. It does state that they are still able to use it to judge themselves (while might be partially changed).

[Muhaba]

From Quran.com, 39.4: If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah , the One, the Prevailing.

Allah can do what ever he wants, including who goes to heaven and hell (the second part is according to the board members, have not verified from Quran yet).

ِAllah has no need to hide anything. If He wanted to take a son from His creatures, He would've been open about it from the beginning instead of hiding the news for centuries and than several centuries after Jesus, He suddenly got the courage to inspire Paul and other men to bring the news into the open. But that wasn't what happened. Through every Prophet and every Holy scripture, mankind has been taught that God was One and had no partners. Abraham taught this, Moses taught this, Muhammad (Peace be upon all of them) taught this, then how can you expect that all of a sudden, between Prophet Moses (PBUH) and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) the message changed? A name that was never heard before was inserted into the basic religious belief? All of a sudden people were told a totally different faith, that God had a son and He sacrificed that son for mankind's sins, etc etc??? Had any of this been true, it would've been present clearly and unambiguously in every scripture revealed by God from the beginning of time, from the time of Adam (PBUH)!!! But it wasn't. God's message doesn't change. It remains the same. When there is a change, it is caused by humans. Humans like Paul made up the lies about Jesus being God, Jesus being son of God, etc etc. That is why Prophet Moses never taught it and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and the Quran refutes it.

Don't take the verses out of context. The verse doesn't mean that God has a son. In fact it refutes the idea that God has a son.
In another verse, chapter 43, verses 81-82 it is stated:

Say, [O Muhammad], "If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of [his] worshippers."
Exalted is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe.

[Muhaba]

And is followed by:

So leave them to converse vainly and amuse themselves until they meet their Day which they are promised.
And it is Allah who is [the only] deity in the heaven, and on the earth [the only] deity. And He is the Wise, the Knowing.
And blessed is He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them and with whom is knowledge of the Hour and to whom you will be returned.
And those they invoke besides Him do not possess [power of] intercession; but only those who testify to the truth [can benefit], and they know.
And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, " Allah ." So how are they deluded? (43: 83-87)

[Muhaba]

dear dreamin
wake up!
IF YOUR BROTHER DIED AND A PILE OF WILLS were found at his bedside
could it be that his last will and testament could be in the pile?

the answer can only be yes or no.
yes?

neil

Are you talking in your many tongues? I do not understand what you mean.

[Muhaba]

Again all that is your word (or you got that from somewhere other than Quran or Hadith).

I found another site, quranfromallah.com/Topics/Quran-Gospel.html, that is also an Islam site.

I only copied a couple of what the Quran says about the people of the book, all of them are asking people of the book to follow their scripture and judge by their scripture:


Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)
And if only they had acted according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course, but many of them do evil deeds. (Quran 5:66)
Say "O people of the Scripture! You have nothing till you act according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord." Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Quran 5:68)
Say: "O people of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed from the Right Path." (Quran 5:77)

There are some others, but none of Muhammad's sayings resemble what you said. I would say the stuff you said are not based upon the Quran and Hadith, but something else you researched yourself. So while Muhammad clearly states that people of the book should not exceed the limits of their book, should act according to the scripture, you are saying all that is corrupt (so basically contradicting him).

Stop taking the verses out of context and picking and choosing only those verses that you can use to strengthen your argument while leaving out those verses that weaken your argument. The verse following the one you quoted (verse 48 of chapter 5) states:
And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Note the word "criterion." It means the following: a standard of judgment or criticism; a rule or principle for evaluating or testing something. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/criterion?s=t)
That means that the Quran is the book with which we can evaluate and test what is present in previous scriptures. There would be no reason to present the Quran as the criterion over the previous books had the previous books been in their original unchanged form. Furthermore, since the Quran is the criterion over the previous books, whenever something doesn't agree with the Quran, we know that it is not from God but added by men later on. Since there are many things in the bible which don't agree with the Quran, that is proof that the bible and other scriptures are not in their original form but have been changed.

[dcalling]

You are putting my quote out of context. I was replay to manor who said "The Quran did not say that Allah can have a son. Please read the Quran before you make assumptions. Thank you ",
which I replied a verse from Quran that says Allah can pick any from among his creations a son. I did not state he has a son or hides a son (which he can do if he wishes, don't you agree?).

And there is no other in power from preventing him from doing so either before or after the reveal of Quran, he is God he can do whatever he pleases. In fact I could even say that if he wishes he can pick all of us as his sons, and when I pray I pray to our heavenly father, because our relationship with God should be like son and father.

ِAllah has no need to hide anything. If He wanted to take a son from His creatures, He would've been open about it from the beginning instead of hiding the news for centuries and than several centuries after Jesus, He suddenly got the courage to inspire Paul and other men to bring the news into the open. But that wasn't what happened. Through every Prophet and every Holy scripture, mankind has been taught that God was One and had no partners. Abraham taught this, Moses taught this, Muhammad (Peace be upon all of them) taught this, then how can you expect that all of a sudden, between Prophet Moses (PBUH) and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) the message changed? A name that was never heard before was inserted into the basic religious belief? All of a sudden people were told a totally different faith, that God had a son and He sacrificed that son for mankind's sins, etc etc??? Had any of this been true, it would've been present clearly and unambiguously in every scripture revealed by God from the beginning of time, from the time of Adam (PBUH)!!! But it wasn't. God's message doesn't change. It remains the same. When there is a change, it is caused by humans. Humans like Paul made up the lies about Jesus being God, Jesus being son of God, etc etc. That is why Prophet Moses never taught it and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and the Quran refutes it.

Don't take the verses out of context. The verse doesn't mean that God has a son. In fact it refutes the idea that God has a son.
In another verse, chapter 43, verses 81-82 it is stated:

Say, [O Muhammad], "If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of [his] worshippers."
Exalted is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe.

[dcalling]

My context is that Insaanah (and later YusufNoor supported with evidences from Christian scholars) said "The injeel is no longer in existence ...."
And I quoted Quran that clearly shows the opposite. So far I have not found anything in Quran that approves that the Gospel is lost and Torah is corrupt beyond use, and I don't see how the verses you quoted or your explanation states otherwise.

The Torah and Gospel might have errors, but they are definitely not lost or corrupt beyond use, and you can go through all the quotes from the Muslim website I provided about the previous scriptures and they confirm that (Unless the site didn't list all and there are other verses not mentioned). In fact I think if you look through the Torah and Gospel, excluding a few conflicts that doesn't affect its message, and a few verses about Jesus is the son of God and cruxfied, not much is in conflict with Quran (there might be more, feel free to add them). I don't care much about you think Muhammad witness, criterion, confirm over Torah/Gospel, but I feel the statement "The injeel is no longer in existence ...." is in conflict with what the Quran teaches.

Stop taking the verses out of context and picking and choosing only those verses that you can use to strengthen your argument while leaving out those verses that weaken your argument. The verse following the one you
quoted (verse 48 of chapter 5) states:
And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Note the word "criterion." It means the following: a standard of judgment or criticism; a rule or principle for evaluating or testing something. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/criterion?s=t)
That means that the Quran is the book with which we can evaluate and test what is present in previous scriptures. There would be no reason to present the Quran as the criterion over the previous books had the previous books been in their original unchanged form. Furthermore, since the Quran is the criterion over the previous books, whenever something doesn't agree with the Quran, we know that it is not from God but added by men later on. Since there are many things in the bible which don't agree with the Quran, that is proof that the bible and other scriptures are not in their original form but have been changed.

[greenhill]

The Torah and Gospel might have errors, but they are definitely not lost or corrupt beyond use,

I read a post by a new member which mentioned a youtube talk by Jeffrey Lang on "the Purpose of Life'. It is over an hour long but I managed to listen to the end quite willingly. Now here he describes the creation of man as he interprets it (and he gives very good explanations). How does that differ from the belief that is extracted from the Bible? It is poles apart. That is a major concern.

You do not need the Qur'an to specifically say the Bible is corrupted. You need to use your own intellect and homework to seek the truth. This is one glaring example.


:peace:

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

I can understand that sometimes it "feels" different after translation. However good translations does retain most of the meaning (I use Quran.com's translation, if you have better ones please let me know).

It is not simply a case of feeling different, but can imply different meanings or leave out information.

Let's agree on that Quran is trustworthy, dominant over all scriptures, still, from the Quran verses talking about Torah and Gospel, it might indicate change of words, additions, mis-interpert of meanings, but no where it says Torah is totally corrupt or Gospel is lost.

It is possible that the Torah and Bible contain some truth and some of Allaah's words. But the original, complete books have been lost:

In the Quran, Allaah informs us that He revealed a number of books, including the scrolls of Prophet Abraham, the Psalms of Prophet David, the Torah of Prophet Moses, the Injeel (Gospel) of Prophet Jesus, and finally, the Quran of Prophet Muhammad, may Allaah exalt the mention of them all. Of these revealed texts, only the Quran remains intact in its original form. All of the others (as complete books) have been lost; their remains have survived only as fragments or tampered with in some way so as to make their authenticity doubtful. Nowhere in the Quran is the Bible even mentioned, to say nothing of its being among the revealed texts of Allaah, or as Christian's claim, 'The word of God.' Further, we know from respected scholars that although some fragments of the Psalms, the Torah, and the Injeel (the teachings of Prophet Jesus) may be found in the Bible, comprised of the Old and New Testaments, the Bible can not rightfully be called, 'The word of God.'...

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...ang=E&Id=90449

It does state that they are still able to use it to judge themselves (while might be partially changed).

No, it does not. You may see the following for more on this:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/re...eir_scriptures
http://islamqa.info/en/159831

These two links will provide verses and hadith regarding textual corruption:
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/ev...ish_scriptures
http://islamqa.info/en/2001


And Allaah :swt: knows best.

[dcalling]

I googled him and his story is similar to that of Woodrow (but less the life and death part, and also he was touched in a dream), but they are very similar in the feeling of peace :-)

Have not watch the video yet (don't have time tonight), will try to watch it. But the creation of man should be similar between Quran and Torah, God created Adam. How can it be poles apart? Is it just his interpretation of it? If you could give me a few details will be greatly appreciated, really don't want to spend an hour on a video :-(

Anyway, my problem is not only the verses of Quran (the list I have from the site) on Bible not saying anything about Gospel is totally lost or Torah is corrupted beyond of use, some of them strongly suggests that the Bible is useful. If Quran said something and someone else suggested otherwise (or give other interpretation), which would you trust?

I have attached some of it below (not all, you can see all of them from my link to the Muslim site) as well as some other verses posted by Muhammad (board admin, not the prophet) and others (to give context):

Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)
And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) . So judge among them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ. [5:48]

And if only they had acted according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course, but many of them do evil deeds. (Quran 5:66)
Say "O people of the Scripture! You have nothing till you act according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord." Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Quran 5:68)
Say: "O people of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed from the Right Path." (Quran 5:77)
"That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. "(2:141)
"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed."(2:87)

I read a post by a new member which mentioned a youtube talk by Jeffrey Lang on "the Purpose of Life'. It is over an hour long but I managed to listen to the end quite willingly. Now here he describes the creation of man as he interprets it (and he gives very good explanations). How does that differ from the belief that is extracted from the Bible? It is poles apart. That is a major concern.

You do not need the Qur'an to specifically say the Bible is corrupted. You need to use your own intellect and homework to seek the truth. This is one glaring example.


:peace:

[Muhaba]

My context is that Insaanah (and later YusufNoor supported with evidences from Christian scholars) said "The injeel is no longer in existence ...."
And I quoted Quran that clearly shows the opposite. So far I have not found anything in Quran that approves that the Gospel is lost and Torah is corrupt beyond use, and I don't see how the verses you quoted or your explanation states otherwise.

The Torah and Gospel might have errors, but they are definitely not lost or corrupt beyond use, and you can go through all the quotes from the Muslim website I provided about the previous scriptures and they confirm that (Unless the site didn't list all and there are other verses not mentioned). In fact I think if you look through the Torah and Gospel, excluding a few conflicts that doesn't affect its message, and a few verses about Jesus is the son of God and cruxfied, not much is in conflict with Quran (there might be more, feel free to add them). I don't care much about you think Muhammad witness, criterion, confirm over Torah/Gospel, but I feel the statement "The injeel is no longer in existence ...." is in conflict with what the Quran teaches.

There are hadith that show that the previous scriptures are now obsolete and should not be read for guidance. one hadith is as follows:

Jabir Bin Abdullah reports that once Umar Bin al-Khattab read a book, which he had received from a Jew, to the Prophet who got angry and said: “O the son of al-Khattab, ar you embarrased? By the One in whose hands is my life, I have brought to you something which is pure and immaculate. Don’t ask them(the Jews) anything. There is a possibility that they tell you the truth and you refute it, or they tell you the false and you confirm it. By the One in whose hands is my life, even if Musa were alive today he would have followed me.”

(Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Hadith no. 4736)

As for the law in the bible, I don't know how accurate it is. It's possible that it's unchanged so might be still used by Christians and Jews. Note that the verse you quoted asked to judge by the Injeel (use the law) and did not ask to follow the Injeel. When the Prophet first went to Madina, he gave the Jews autonomy and allowed them to use their own law.

commentary of verse 68 of chapter 5 states:

By 'establishing the Torah and the Gospel' is meant observing them honestly and making them the law of life.
It should be noted here that the Scriptures which comprise the Bible consist of two kinds of writings. One was composed by the Jewish and Christian authors themselves. The second consists of those portions which have been recorded as either the injunctions of God or as the utterances of Moses, Jesus and other Prophets. Such portions are those in which it has been categorically stated that God said so and so, or that a particular Prophet said so and so. If we were to exclude the portions belonging to the first category and carefully study those belonging to the second we would notice that their teachings are not perceptibly different from those of the Qur'an. It is true that the second category has not altogether escaped the tamperings of translators, scribes and exegetes, and the errors of oral transmitters. Nevertheless, one cannot help feeling that the teachings embodied in the second category call man to the same pure monotheism as the Qur'an, that they propound those very beliefs propounded by the Qur'an and that they direct man to the same way of life as that to which the Qur'an seeks to direct him. Hence, had the Jews and the Christians adhered to the teaching attributed in their Scriptures to God and the Prophets they would certainly have become a truth-loving and truth-oriented group of people and would have been able to see in the Qur'an that very light which illuminates the earlier divine Scriptures. There would then have been no question of their abandoning their religion in order to follow the Prophet (peace be on him). To follow him would have caused neither break nor discontinuity; they would simply have gone one stage further along the same road.
http://www.tafheem.net/tafheem.html

Whenever you quote something, make sure it is from authentic Islamic sources and authentic websites and not some unknown interpretation that may have been done by anyone. Quote commentaries from the known commentaries directly. It's possible that the various commentaries you quoted were misinterpretations of the commentaries.

There are parts of the bible that have been clearly tampered with and can not be used. If you look sincerely, you will be able to tell what a parts are from God and what are additions of men. For example, one can realize with a bit of straight thinking that God's Prophets were the best of men and were not capable of doing any of the horrible sins attributed to them by the bible. Do you think that God would say such things about His Prophets? Or do you think that the Prophets could be such sinning men? neither is acceptable and it's obvious that such statements were added by people.

God's teaching about monotheism and Godhood doesn't change. Either trinity was always the case or it never was the case. For centuries all prophets preached about One God and no one heard the name of trinity. After Jesus we heard about the trinity. When Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came, he taught once again that God was One and Single and that the trinity was a wrong concept. One can clearly understand from this that the trinity and divinity of Jesus was an addition by people and not a fact.

You are putting my quote out of context. I was replay to manor who said "The Quran did not say that Allah can have a son. Please read the Quran before you make assumptions. Thank you ",
which I replied a verse from Quran that says Allah can pick any from among his creations a son. I did not state he has a son or hides a son (which he can do if he wishes, don't you agree?).

In a previous post you wrote that the Quran says that God can have a son. My reply was to that. the Quran does not say that God can have a son. The Quran clearly states that God does not have a son. It is further stated that if God had a son, the Prophets would be the first to acknowledge it. There was no reason for it to be hidden. God is not embarrassed to disclose the truth. The Quran tells us that God is High above the need for a son or partner.

[Signor]

It is possible that the Torah and Bible contain some truth and some of Allaah's words. But the original, complete books have been lost:

In the Quran, Allaah informs us that He revealed a number of books, including the scrolls of Prophet Abraham, the Psalms of Prophet David, the Torah of Prophet Moses, the Injeel (Gospel) of Prophet Jesus, and finally, the Quran of Prophet Muhammad, may Allaah exalt the mention of them all. Of these revealed texts, only the Quran remains intact in its original form. All of the others (as complete books) have been lost; their remains have survived only as fragments or tampered with in some way so as to make their authenticity doubtful. Nowhere in the Quran is the Bible even mentioned, to say nothing of its being among the revealed texts of Allaah, or as Christian's claim, 'The word of God.' Further, we know from respected scholars that although some fragments of the Psalms, the Torah, and the Injeel (the teachings of Prophet Jesus) may be found in the Bible, comprised of the Old and New Testaments, the Bible can not rightfully be called, 'The word of God.'...

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...aId&lang=E&Id= 90449

An example of Islam's stance from my research on Noah's(A.S) Place In Allah's Eyes from Biblical and Quranic sources

and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;Peter 2:5

(In the days of old), Noah cried to Us, and We are the best to hear prayer.And We delivered him and his people from the Great Calamity,And made his progeny to endure (on this earth);And We left (this blessing) for him among generations to come in later times:"Peace and salutation to Noah among the nations!"Holy Quran,(37:75-79)

Verily he was a devotee most grateful Holy Quran,(17:3)

Biblical Contradiction(An Alteration)

And Noah the husbandman began, and planted a vineyard. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. Genesis 20-21

Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)

And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) . So judge among them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ. [5:48]

And if only they had acted according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course, but many of them do evil deeds. (Quran 5:66)

Say "O people of the Scripture! You have nothing till you act according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord." Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Quran 5:68)

Say: "O people of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed from the Right Path." (Quran 5:77)

"That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. "(2:141)

"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed."(2:87)

If we say,It was Islam all along from Adam(A.S) to Muhammad(A.S),WHO WILL GONNA OWN THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING WHAT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO THEM?Can you name Muhammad(PBUH) as Prophet and Messenger in Church or Start shutting those mouths who say Jesus(A.S) was an illegitimate son(Naoudubillah min zalik)?Name any other religion which can declare such a statement besides Islam?

Lo! those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad(SAAWS), and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (Al Baqarah:62)

We are of the view Torah and Injeel were corrupted later on,not at the time of revelation.I will post later Insha Allah what Quran has to offer in this context.

[Muhammad]

Anyway, my problem is not only the verses of Quran (the list I have from the site) on Bible not saying anything about Gospel is totally lost or Torah is corrupted beyond of use, some of them strongly suggests that the Bible is useful. If Quran said something and someone else suggested otherwise (or give other interpretation), which would you trust?

As pointed out a number of times, there is confusion in how you use the terms here. The revelation given to Prophet Isa :as: was the Injeel; the Qur'an does not mention 'Bible' anywhere. It is erroneous to equate the Bible with the Injeel mentioned in the Quran. This goes back to my earlier post about problems with relying on translations - just because the word Injeel has been translated as Gospel, does not mean it is talking about the New Testament. The Gospel/Injeel that was revealed to Prophet Isa :as: is not the Gospels which the Christians have today. This much should be very clear because Christians themselves do not believe that the books they have before them were revealed in that form from God, nor do they claim that the Messiah wrote the Gospel, or at least that it was written during his lifetime.

From one of the links I gave you earlier (the third time I am linking from this site):

The main problem with Christians who put forth these arguments is that they fail to identify and understand how the Qur'an uses the terms 'Torah' and 'Gospel' in the Qur'an. When the Qur'an talks about the Torah and Gospel, one of its intentions is to speak about the original revelations sent to Moses and Jesus peace be upon them both respectively. Sometimes the Qur'an or authentic hadith might appear to be speaking about the Torah and Gospel, which Jews and Christians refer to.

For example, when I debate the topic 'Did Jesus Claim Divinity' with Christians, I usually issue this challenge 'Show me where Jesus claimed divinity in the Gospel'. Now, my intention here is that I am referring to the Gospel referred to by Christians and that is the combined four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. However, my intention is not to state that this is the actual Gospel that God revealed to Jesus peace be upon him. So the word is used in different contexts and Christians fail to identify this when it comes to studying the Qur'an and authentic hadith.

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/re...eir_scriptures

I have attached some of it below (not all, you can see all of them from my link to the Muslim site) as well as some other verses posted by Muhammad (board admin, not the prophet) and others (to give context):

Please read the links I gave in my previous post for a full discussion. The thread cannot continue if you choose to ignore everyone's replies and keep repeating your own.

[Muhaba]

Did Moses preach the trinity? If not, then how can you Christians think that Jesus would? Jesus followed the Mosaic law and faith. He didn't bring a different religion. The faith he taught would be the same as taught by Prophet Moses. Something to think about!

What Prophet Muhammd (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) taught was the same that taught by Prophet Moses, that there is One Unique God with no partners, no son, no share in divinity. So who is closer to the truth? What Christians have today or what Muslims believe?

You've got to consider this question sincerely and with an open mind. Could Jesus have taught a faith different from Moses (peace be upon them)?

[Insaanah]

Reading this thread, I am amazed at how much word twisting, using quotes out of context and without any degree of understanding, is going on. Ignoring those parts of posts you wish to, inserting words in other peoples quotes that they didn't use and using that to say that what they said was wrong, and thus I have really had no inclination to reply. However with some things that have been said, I feel I must.

Here is just one example:

He does not beget, nor is He begotten.

Quran did say that Allah can have a son.

You changed the word "does", which I used, to "can". I did talk not about can/cannot, I said does/does not. One small word changed can alter the whole meaning ( as has happened with the previous scriptures).

This is very reminiscent of the people of the book Allah talks about in the Qur'an twisting those parts of scripture as it suited them, ignoring others etc. Another example is here, where you also make wrong assertions about the Qur'an:

He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

Agree with first part, the second part is your own assertion. I think Quran talk about he want us to worship him.

Please stop talking and making your own faulty and misinformed statements about the Qur'an.

....But whoever disbelieves - then indeed, Allah is free from need of the worlds. (3:97, part)

Interesting, again, how you twist my words. I said "need", and you change that to "want", and reply to a different point that I didn't make.

Irrespective of this, the Qur'an is clear.

Allah tells us to worship Him, but our not doing so does not diminish Him in the least, it is our own loss.

An example of a post on a topic, where you take one point, and make the entire thread about that one point, ignoring the other points made in the same post, which put that point into context, and ignoring what everyone else has to say, is here:

The original scripture, given to Jesus (peace be upon him) by God, was called the Injeel. This was the word of God, not the words of any human. The ones we have today, are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not God. The injeel is no longer in existence, having being mixed with the words of man, parts changed/edited/deleted/forgotten/corrupted. There may be fragments of the truth remaining interspersed with what else is there. Some people, of their own volition, will perceive as a rough guide, whatever agrees with the Qur'an, as having an element of truth. But Allah knows best.

The part I have above highlighted in bold, has been completely ignored, and the same repeated claims made:

I can't find anything in there that hints the entire Gospel is lost.

none says Gospel is lost or Torah is totally corrupt

My context is that Insaanah (and later YusufNoor supported with evidences from Christian scholars) said "The injeel is no longer in existence ...."
And I quoted Quran that clearly shows the opposite. So far I have not found anything in Quran that approves that the Gospel is lost and Torah is corrupt beyond use, and I don't see how the verses you quoted or your explanation states otherwise.

Anyway, my problem is not only the verses of Quran (the list I have from the site) on Bible not saying anything about Gospel is totally lost or Torah is corrupted beyond of use

Whether the entire Gospel is lost is irrelevant. the point is, once even a minor change is made, it is no longer the original book as revealed by God. End of. Period. Now, it is not even a minor change, but entire books are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not the words of God, the word of God having been lost, or being very few and far between.

Allah tells the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) that even in the period when the Qur'an wasn't yet revealed, they still did not follow whatever scriptures they had with them. If they did not follow even the true parts of what they had with them, then how would they follow the Qur'an? If they followed the parts of their scriptures which were true, they included those parts which told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and that they should follow him, and thus following the Qur'an would be the natural progression. So there is nothing contradictory nor dubious about such verses in the Qur'an as much as Christian missionaries may try to misquote verses to do so. Nor is there any dispensation for following the previous scriptures now.

Read these verses:

O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished. (4:47)

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful. (7:156-7)

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path. (5:15-16)

And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of what they have recognized of the truth. They say, "Our Lord, we have believed, so register us among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah and what has come to us of the truth? And we aspire that our Lord will admit us [to Paradise] with the righteous people." (5:83-84)

Did these righteous Christians, stubbornly insist that they must follow their previous scriptures? No. Did they look for any personal interpretations they might be able to make of the Qur'an that might excuse them from following it? No. The Bible was probably less changed then that it is even now. But still Allah condemns the people who changed the previous scriptures which were His word, and rightfully so. Those Christians and Jews who recognized that parts of the Bible or Torah could in no way have been from God, recognized the Qur'an as containing their same original message. They were overjoyed when the Qur'an was revealed. They didn't see it as changing their faith, but as coming back to the true teachings of Jesus and Moses, and submitting to God.

Since you are so insistent on the use of Qur'anic verses, saying this:

what evidence is better than the Word of God?

How about the ones that order you to follow the Qur'an? Not pick and choose style, but in it's totality? Since the current day Gospels are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not God, whereas the Qur'an on the other hand, is 100% the word of God.

The Qur'an has many verses which tell us that the previous scriptures have been

Changed
Parts Omitted
Words added and attributed to Allaah - words that He did not say
Twisting/Misinterpreting the words of Allaah.

Also:

I prefer base scripture instead of any human interpretation over it.

All you have done throughout this thread, is take human interpretation, your own twisted and misguided and erroneous personal interpretation.

Please read the links I gave in my previous post for a full discussion. The thread cannot continue if you choose to ignore everyone's replies and keep repeating your own.

I think we should very strongly stick to this. Part of the reason we closed comparative religion, was to avoid prolonged debates like this where the intention does not appear to be to learn, to avoid wasting everyone's time.

Thus I am closing this thread. There is plenty of material here to be pondered over, sincerely, with intent to learn, should you wish to do so.