Corruptions of other scriptures..

[Shasid]

:sl:

I've a question about earlier scriptures.. We Muslims believe that some part of the Injil and Torah can be in the Bible.
But.. the entire Bible is not the word of God. I've been trying to explain to a Christian friend. He love the teachings
of Islam but he is not sure if he will convert/revert to Islam.

He asked me some questions that I had no answers for.. Maybe someone can help me here.

1) Where and when did Bible get corrupted??

2) Who corrupted it ?

3) why would God let his books get corrupted?

Jazakallahu khair!

[greenhill]

There were many versions until the Roman decided to standardise the Bible when they made Christianity the official religion. All other version were destroyed.

They were the major corruptors imo when they infused many pagan celebrations into the religion.

That is as brief as I can put it.


:peace:

[greenhill]

But it was not without the help from the Jews. . . .:p

[Shasid]

Thank you brother!!

:thumbs_up

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[Nur Student]

The words of the Torah, the Bible, and the Psalms do not have the miraculousness of those of the Qur’an.

They have also been translated again and again, and a great many alien words have become intermingled with them.

Also, the words of commentators and their false interpretations have been confused with their verses.

In addition, the distortions of the ignorant and the hostile have been incorporated into them. In these ways, the corruptions and alterations have multiplied in those Books.

In fact, Shaikh Rahmatullah al-Hindi, the well-known scholar, proved to Jewish and Christian scholars and priests thousands of corruptions in them, and silenced them. Nevertheless, despite these corruptions, in our times the celebrated Husain Jisri (May God have mercy on him) found one hundred and fourteen allusions to the prophethood of Muhammad (UWBP), and included them in his al-Risala al-Hamidiya.

[syed_z]

3) why would God let his books get corrupted?

Allah (swt) says in the Quran:

Surah An Nahl 16:101

And Now that We replace one message by another - since God is fully aware of what He bestows from on High Step by Step - they (who deny the truth) are wont to say, "Thou but inventest it!" Nay but most of them do not understand!"


Allah (swt) replaces one scripture with another within one community or have sent multiple scriptures to different communities around the world is due to the social aspects and cultural trends guiding that particular community and therefore those scriptures were short lived and related to the intellectual development of that community.

When Mankind had evolved socially, intellectually to a point where they were developed to receive a complete revelation which would cover all aspects of their individual and collective lives, that is when Allah (swt) sent Propeht Muhammad (saw) and a Last/Final Testament for all mankind.

Allah (swt) has also said in the Quran that he discontinued the old process:

Surah Al Furqan Verse 51

"Now had We so willed, We (could have continued as before and) raised a (separate) warner in every single community...."

[sister herb]

Remind your friend also about the fact what kind of influence were the earliest synods to the Christianity (from the First Council of Nicaea for example).

[Shasid]

The words of the Torah, the Bible, and the Psalms do not have the miraculousness of those of the Qur’an.

They have also been translated again and again, and a great many alien words have become intermingled with them.

Also, the words of commentators and their false interpretations have been confused with their verses.

In addition, the distortions of the ignorant and the hostile have been incorporated into them. In these ways, the corruptions and alterations have multiplied in those Books.

In fact, Shaikh Rahmatullah al-Hindi, the well-known scholar, proved to Jewish and Christian scholars and priests thousands of corruptions in them, and silenced them. Nevertheless, despite these corruptions, in our times the celebrated Husain Jisri (May God have mercy on him) found one hundred and fourteen allusions to the prophethood of Muhammad (UWBP), and included them in his al-Risala al-Hamidiya.

Thank you brother :D

[Shasid]

Allah (swt) says in the Quran:

Surah An Nahl 16:101

And Now that We replace one message by another - since God is fully aware of what He bestows from on High Step by Step - they (who deny the truth) are wont to say, "Thou but inventest it!" Nay but most of them do not understand!"


Allah (swt) replaces one scripture with another within one community or have sent multiple scriptures to different communities around the world is due to the social aspects and cultural trends guiding that particular community and therefore those scriptures were short lived and related to the intellectual development of that community.

When Mankind had evolved socially, intellectually to a point where they were developed to receive a complete revelation which would cover all aspects of their individual and collective lives, that is when Allah (swt) sent Propeht Muhammad (saw) and a Last/Final Testament for all mankind.

Allah (swt) has also said in the Quran that he discontinued the old process:

Surah Al Furqan Verse 51

"Now had We so willed, We (could have continued as before and) raised a (separate) warner in every single community...."

Thank you.. :)

[Nur Student]

Good point sister herb!

Also check this link:

http://www.questionsonislam.com/node/12356



Question: Will you give information about the distortion process of the Bible (New Testament)?

The Answer: There are numerous proofs that the Bible (New Testament) has been distorted. However, it is necessary to accept that there are some unchanged truth it in though very few.
The Distortion Process of the Bible

The Bible is essentially a divine book revealed to Hazrat Eesa (Jesus) by Allah. The Quran states many times that the Bible is a divine book revealed to Jesus. According to what internal and foreign sources inform us unanimously, Jesus did not write the Bible himself; he could not find time to have it written, either. The proclamation (conveying the message) period of Jesus lasted very short (three years), and the ordeal and pursuit was too much at that period. However, the number of the apostles that believed in Christ was twelve before he was raised to the sky; however, most of them were illiterate. Therefore, there was not an appropriate opportunity to write the Bible. Besides, since the first Christians thought Jesus was going to return, they did not feel the need of writing the Bible.

It is necessary to mention one more thing regarding the issue: the New Testament was not sent down as a written book. The Torah (Old Testament) was sent down to Hazrat Musa (Moses) in the form of tablets; the Old Testament, like the Quran, was not sent down in the form of written texts; it was revealed to Jesus orally.

After Jesus was raised to the sky, Christians constantly waited for him to come back; when his return was delayed, they tried to write down the verses of the New Testament as they remembered. However, the number of those that saw Jesus and heard his message had decreased. Consequently, the Bibles started to be written 30-40 years after Jesus was raised to the sky. The number of people that believed in Jesus had partly increased and Christianity had started to spread to the other nations thought not very much. Those that had listened to Jesus directly wanted to convey the message of Jesus in order to meet their own needs and to convey the message of Jesus to those who had not received his message. Therefore, they started to write the Bible as much as they remembered.

In the first periods, the number of the Bibles that were also called “Reminiscences” was too many... (Continue reading)

[Muhaba]

It was mankind's habit to change the message sent by God. It was God's Mercy to keep sending Prophets and Books for mankind's guidance though mankind kept erring and changing scriptures. One reason God didn't preserve former scriptures is because God sent a new Prophet to revive the Message and guide people. Because the world was divided (lack of communication) sometimes multiple Prophets were sent to different areas. Because Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم is the last Prophet and the Quran the last Holy Book, so Allah preserved it so people could get guidance forever.

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

be careful trying to answer these questions if you do not possess the understanding of the question. just say that you do not know.

the Torah, today, are the books believed to be written in the 2nd millenia BCE. this is hundreds of years after Moses, pbuh. the Torah is the Message delivered by Moses, pbuh, not some books. those books have a history. studying that history is a waste of your time.

the Injeel, is the Message brought by Jesus, pbuh. the "Gospels" we have are NOT the injeel, though they contain elements. the Injeel was changed before it was put into writing. yes, the NT has a history. studying that history is a waste of your time.

people corrupted God's Message. books, outside the Qur'an are a human product, thus they are imperfect.

the history of the Jewish books and the Christian books is a complicated subject. rather than give someone quotes that you have no idea whatsoever as to their truthfulness, leave the subject to someone who knows it. or just leave it alone.

your job is to teach Tawheed and Islam. that is our job.

ma salaama

[Scimitar]

just a point about the Injeel... it does not exist - that was the kitaab of Isa AS... instead, what we got today are the kitaabs of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - so these would be ahadeeth, not revelation far as I understand it.

However, that is not to say that the new testament doesn't contain truths, for in my research i've found some verses which do not contradict the Quran also.

The truth is, if the OP wants his questions truly answered - I don't believe they are to be found in our posts. He will have to study the historicity of the bible (NT) and their versions - why those versions exist, and the fundamental differences in articles of faith - after which, a cross comparative of the NT's and the OT has to be addressed, this requires delving deeper into the historicity of the Torah - which is even more difficult, considering that at one time - the book had ceased to exist on earth and was not returned til 100 years later (Jewish history of the Torah)... and a whole host of other nuances that will take up any mans (or womans) time... and once that is done, can he (or she) finally start the comparatives to Quran.

And that's just only the beginning.

Scimi

[Shasid]

Good point sister herb!

Question: Will you give information about the distortion process of the Bible (New Testament)?

The Answer: There are numerous proofs that the Bible (New Testament) has been distorted. However, it is necessary to accept that there are some unchanged truth it in though very few.
The Distortion Process of the Bible

The Bible is essentially a divine book revealed to Hazrat Eesa (Jesus) by Allah. The Quran states many times that the Bible is a divine book revealed to Jesus. According to what internal and foreign sources inform us unanimously, Jesus did not write the Bible himself; he could not find time to have it written, either. The proclamation (conveying the message) period of Jesus lasted very short (three years), and the ordeal and pursuit was too much at that period. However, the number of the apostles that believed in Christ was twelve before he was raised to the sky; however, most of them were illiterate. Therefore, there was not an appropriate opportunity to write the Bible. Besides, since the first Christians thought Jesus was going to return, they did not feel the need of writing the Bible.

It is necessary to mention one more thing regarding the issue: the New Testament was not sent down as a written book. The Torah (Old Testament) was sent down to Hazrat Musa (Moses) in the form of tablets; the Old Testament, like the Quran, was not sent down in the form of written texts; it was revealed to Jesus orally.

After Jesus was raised to the sky, Christians constantly waited for him to come back; when his return was delayed, they tried to write down the verses of the New Testament as they remembered. However, the number of those that saw Jesus and heard his message had decreased. Consequently, the Bibles started to be written 30-40 years after Jesus was raised to the sky. The number of people that believed in Jesus had partly increased and Christianity had started to spread to the other nations thought not very much. Those that had listened to Jesus directly wanted to convey the message of Jesus in order to meet their own needs and to convey the message of Jesus to those who had not received his message. Therefore, they started to write the Bible as much as they remembered.

In the first periods, the number of the Bibles that were also called “Reminiscences” was too many..

Thank you brother.. but let me correct some things. The Bible was not divine in anyway. It maybe contains some portions that match with the Qur'an, But i will not accept nor reject those portions from the Bible, that is what our beloved Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said. Now the Bible is not in the Bible at all nor in the Qur'an. The Qur'an speaks of a Injil revealed to 'Isa 'Alayhi Salam. Injil is the Gospel or Evangelist in English. As you see the word Injil is singular while the Bible contains four different gospelS from different authors that never met 'Isa 'Alayhi Salam. So you can say that Injil was a divine book. But the Bible, No I don't think so.

[Scimitar]

to say they've never met is a falsity, that can neither be verified nor refuted... and given the context of the language spoken in the hebrew aramaic, it does seem that at least 2 of the four authors/contributors to the bible may have actually been companions of Isa AS.

Scimi

[Shasid]

1) Where and when did Bible get corrupted??

2) Who corrupted it ?

3) why would God let his books get corrupted?

I'm asking this questions because a friend of mine asked them and I didn't have any answer!
Now some Muslims think that Bible is the Injil and vice versa.

And also one thing is that the four gospels were selected from 100 of Gospels, and the remaining was declared as APOCRYPHA.

Now we Muslims claim that the Bible is/was corrupted.. and I said it to my friend and he gave me the 3 questions above.

[Scimitar]

whoever is asking, can get their own answers by reading the very books they claim are uncorrupted:

Jeremiah 8:8
"How can you say, 'We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,' when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

And you go from there. Method bro.

Scimi

[M.I.A.]

i feel that both christianity and judaism faced the same problems as islam faces.. that is my objectionable opinion.

they must both retain some resemblance to the truth of god.. but corruption is inherent in all things.

outside influences from within the religion.


i cant tell you where they were corrupted... im no scholer, but if you have something you cant change.. you just surround it with things you can.

as they gain importance, emphasis can be removed from what was important.

..and so on.



in the infinite scheme of things, god has no need of us..

he is constantly replacing peoples and nations with others and an ever repeating message is present..god allows for things to stand for there own time.. and then they change.

back to the islamic example.

1400 years on.. and an original unchanged scripture is still with us and yet there are so many divisions of understanding and interpretation that it is beyond belief.

but there is still a god and im sure he would be accepting of religious action rather than intent to oppose it.

im not sure if religious action is interpreted as "worshiping" or worshiping while working... probably a middle ground of both.


i guess thats the whole point of religion, if not then you would have just got one copy and it would have never had to be replaced.

peace and blessings be upon them all.

[YusufNoor]

to say they've never met is a falsity, that can neither be verified nor refuted... and given the context of the language spoken in the hebrew aramaic, it does seem that at least 2 of the four authors/contributors to the bible may have actually been companions of Isa AS.

Scimi

:sl:

not to pick on you, brother, but this is not accepted by the majority of Biblical scholars. the 4 gospels were written in Greek and not Aramaic. the accepted dates for the gospels are Mark, 65-75 CE, Matthew and Luke 80-85CE and John 90-95CE. all the books were written anonymously and the names the bear today were not assigned until the middle of the 2nd century CE. we're Muslims and we have an obligation to speak the truth. falsehood isn't true.

dawah should be based upon truth, and not lies and misinformation.

ma salama

[Shasid]

to say they've never met is a falsity, that can neither be verified nor refuted... and given the context of the language spoken in the hebrew aramaic, it does seem that at least 2 of the four authors/contributors to the bible may have actually been companions of Isa AS.

Scimi

Thanks for your post brother!
Sorry, but I disagree with you. Firstly the authors of the Bible are unknown, the Bible scholar admit and agree that the authors of the Bible are unknown and we don't know who wrote the gospels. Now if you say that Matthew, Luke, John and Mark met 'Isa Alayhi Salam can be right or even false, We know that the Gospels were written much after 'Isa Alayhi Salam so it can be that they did not know 'Isa Alayhi Salam. Allahu 'Alam. Same goes for the old testament, now the Bible Scholars don't know who the authors of the OT are. They think that Musa 'Alayhi Salam wrote the five books. They THINK but are not sure and to disapprove the fact that Musa 'Alayhi Salam "wrote" the five books of the OT is the verse that goes like this "He DIED when he was 120 years old..."

And... in the NT, if you read the Gospel according to Matthew, one verse goes like this "Matthew saw Jesus, Matthew followed Jesus etc.." Now if Matthew is writing all this why is he writing in 3rd person? It makes no sense. But when we give this facts to the Christians, they come up with funny excuses and ask questions like my friend did. Yet this people don't want the truth!

The four gospels were choosen out of hundred other Gospels and books, now the questions we must ask is who chose what books/gospels to be in the Bible or not to be. Man or God? The other hundred Gospels were declared unaunthenthic. Weird!

[YusufNoor]

Thanks for your post brother!
Sorry, but I disagree with you. Firstly the authors of the Bible are unknown, the Bible scholar admit and agree that the authors of the Bible are unknown and we don't know who wrote the gospels. Now if you say that Matthew, Luke, John and Mark met 'Isa Alayhi Salam can be right or even false, We know that the Gospels were written much after 'Isa Alayhi Salam so it can be that they did not know 'Isa Alayhi Salam. Allahu 'Alam. Same goes for the old testament, now the Bible Scholars don't know who the authors of the OT are. They think that Musa 'Alayhi Salam wrote the five books. They THINK but are not sure and to disapprove the fact that Musa 'Alayhi Salam "wrote" the five books of the OT is the verse that goes like this "He DIED when he was 120 years old..."

actually, Jewish scholars believe that Moses, pbuh, wrote that. they say he wept as he wrote. i'm not say that is true, i'm just saying what the Torah scholars say. it sounds like you are quoting Khalid Yasin. i would point you to other evidence, but you can search my posts, if you like. i'll post an easier response below.

And... in the NT, if you read the Gospel according to Matthew, one verse goes like this "Matthew saw Jesus, Matthew followed Jesus etc.." Now if Matthew is writing all this why is he writing in 3rd person? It makes no sense. But when we give this facts to the Christians, they come up with funny excuses and ask questions like my friend did. Yet this people don't want the truth!

The four gospels were choosen out of hundred other Gospels and books, now the questions we must ask is who chose what books/gospels to be in the Bible or not to be. Man or God? The other hundred Gospels were declared unaunthenthic. Weird!

again, i would like to see your evidence. if you said dozens or scores, i might be inclined to agree with you. as for unauthentic books, we have a lot of them. books that might have been destroyed would be those that belong to, what we later refer to as Gnostics. when and where, were these "hundreds" of gospels and books declared to be not authentic, and by whom? what is your evidence.

:sl:

there is evidence in the Tanakh itself, that the Torah was not written by Moses, pbuh. Jeremiah and Baruch ben Nariah may well be the "authors" of the Book of Deuteronomy. see Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote The Bible.

as for the book of Deuteronomy, consider the opening verse:

1 These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the wilderness east of the Jordan—that is, in the Arabah—opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. 2 (It takes eleven days to go from Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by the Mount Seir road.)

these are the words Moses spoke on the east of the Jordan. think about that. according to the Torah, Moses, pbuh, NEVER made it WEST of the Jordan. where, according to the author, were those words written? the only conclusion can be that Moses, pbuh dit NOT write those words. IF he did, then some other words HAVE to be wrong!

can you see how that is a much stronger argument? you can use that 1 verse, alone.

ma salaaama