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Sojourn
02-08-2014, 04:07 PM
Peace be with you all,

For some time I have been perplexed by the verse in the Qur'an stating Jesus was not crucified but it was only "made to appear" to be so. I read Ibn Kathir's commentary on the verse and he suggests that another disciple of Jesus was made to look like him, and that this disciple took the place of Jesus on the cross, although there is no source that reveals where Ibn Kathir got this notion from. Is there anything in Islamic tradition that serves to elucidate what happened to Jesus in this verse?

Pax et bonum
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greenhill
02-08-2014, 04:55 PM
It is just that. Nothing to be perplexed about. Jesus was never crucified. Whatever the 'means' Allah employed to make His plan happen is by Hill Will.

The main difference (imo) between Christianity and Islam is the original sin and Jesus dying at the cross to absolve his followers from hell. Whereas Islam does not believe in the original sin, and that every human is by himself accountable for his deeds.


"And they said we have killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God. They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him. On the contrary, God raised him unto himself. God is almighty and wise."
Quran surah 4 (An-Nisa النساء) ayah 157-158[22]


......God raised him unto Himself...


It's hard, if not impossible to believe if you are of a Roman Catholic derivative faith. It just cannot fit. It tears into the fabric of the Christian faith to have Jesus not dying at the cross.


:peace:
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Sojourn
02-08-2014, 06:08 PM
Peace be with you,

Originally Posted by greenhill
It is just that. Nothing to be perplexed about. Jesus was never crucified. Whatever the 'means' Allah employed to make His plan happen is by Hill Will.


I can understand your perspective, you believe the Quran is the word of God and therefore believe as a matter of faith that Jesus was not crucified. I respect your fidelity to what you believe to be true, however I do not share your belief in the Quran, rather I am approaching it as an outsider with the knowledge that Jesus was crucified. We have a lot of evidence that points to this fact, and nothing that casts doubt on it, to the point that even scholars who disagree with many points of Christianity admit that the crucifixion is beyond dispute (cf EP Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus), even the Quran admits that at least the semblance of a crucifixion occurred, and in this matter it agrees with a group collectively known as the Gnostics. They predate Christianity but soon took Christ as part of their pantheon of divine manifestations, and being that they rejected matter as evil, they believed him to be pure spirit without body. Consequently, the crucifixion could not have been a real crucifixion, but only an illusion. That the Qur'an seems to confirm their view is rather perplexing! So I am interested in understanding exactly what it is that Muslims believe.

Originally Posted by greenhill
The main difference (imo) between Christianity and Islam is the original sin and Jesus dying at the cross to absolve his followers from hell. Whereas Islam does not believe in the original sin, and that every human is by himself accountable for his deeds.
Original sin refers to the fact that we are born into a state we were not intended for. We were created in communion with God but this was ruptured by the first man's sin. Consequently mankind was separated from that intimate union with God, and all those born of the first man share in this deprived state. The real difference between us is that Muslims believe salvation can be obtained through works, so long as one's good deeds outweigh their bad ones. We believe rather that it is impossible for man to appease God by works, and that only an act of God could remedy our situation. That remedy was Christ's sacrificial act which being the work of a Divine person bearing human nature was solely capable of redeeming us and make available an even greater unity than Adam experienced.

This of course is all theological, and I don't mind discussing this topic but the main issue at hand is a historical event, namely the crucifixion.

Originally Posted by greenhill
It's hard, if not impossible to believe if you are of a Roman Catholic derivative faith. It just cannot fit. It tears into the fabric of the Christian faith to have Jesus not dying at the cross.
It may also be impossible for you to believe that Jesus was crucified, for if the Quran is wrong about this, what else can it be wrong of?
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crimsontide06
02-08-2014, 06:33 PM
I am not wanting to debate but I'm curious what Islam says happened to the person "crucified" in Jesus's place...did the person get raised back alive? or did they stay dead...
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greenhill
02-09-2014, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
The real difference between us is that Muslims believe salvation can be obtained through works, so long as one's good deeds outweigh their bad ones. We believe rather that it is impossible for man to appease God by works, and that only an act of God could remedy our situation.
That is why Allah is the Most Forgiving and Most Merciful. Sincere repentance and remembrance of Him helps to absolve minor sins.



Originally Posted by Sojourn
It may also be impossible for you to believe that Jesus was crucified, for if the Quran is wrong about this, what else can it be wrong of?
As you said, the Gnostic (that predate Christianity) believed the same as what is propagated by the Quran, and along comes a belief formed at a later date that contradicts the earlier belief (and the words of the Qur'an) and has somehow becomes the 'new reality' when actually is false.

:peace:
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MustafaMc
02-09-2014, 03:57 AM
And peace be upon you as well, Sojurn. I wanted to quote the ayat 4:157 you reference in context:

—No! God has sealed them in their disbelief, so they believe only a little and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.’ They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him— God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise. There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in [Jesus] before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.

Haleem, M. A. S. Abdel (2005-05-12). The Qur'an (Oxford World's Classics) (p. 65). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

I can relate to your assessment of Ibn Kathir's commentary that the likeness of Jesus (as) was put on another person (Judas?) being based on unclear evidence. I have not seen a hadith where this explanation for the ayat is offered by Prophet Muhammad (saaws). I have read 'The Gospel of Barnabas' and this particular story is conveyed in detail. I do not accept this book as an unadulterated source of knowledge, but neither do I reject it as entirely fabricated. However, it is doubtful that Ibn Kathir would have had access to the Gospel of Barnabas as the reference for his assessment.

This passage is addressed to the Jews and it negates several of their beliefs about Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them both). The slander against Mary is such that I refuse to even repeat it for I believe the Qur'an when it says that Mary conceived miraculously as a virgin and that she was a chaste woman. The slander follows to Jesus (as) as her son who was not the 'son (as was supposed) of Joseph' per Luke 3:23, but rather he has the likeness of Adam when God said 'Be!' and he was. The passage negates their claim to have killed Jesus (as) and thereby dishonored him. The passage leaves the means and methodology unclear, but makes it clear that Jesus was not killed or crucified in the same manner that other ayah make it clear that he was neither God nor the Son of God. The part about Jesus' (as) ascension is actually similar to the Bible making reference to a miraculous event that does not seem to be appreciated by most who read it. I see a distinct similarity to Prophet Muhammad's (saaws) night journey to Jerusalem and ascension from there to receive instructions for the Islamic prayer. This relates to another Islamic belief that Jesus (as) will return during the last day to rule as the title 'Messiah' implies this role that has as of yet not been actualized.

We agree on the birth and ascension of Jesus, but we disagree on his essential nature and on Calvary. If it is as the Qur'an claimed that Jesus was neither God nor the Son of God and that he did not die on the cross, then what is left as the central truth of Christianity?
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Woodrow
02-09-2014, 04:44 AM
We really do not know. Even the attempts by the greatest scholars are simply giving their opinion.

Reading the ayyat carefully:

"And they said we have killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God. They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him. On the contrary, God raised him unto himself. God is almighty and wise."
We can not say with certainty and proof that anyone was crucified. Although we can be reasonably certain The witnesses did believe somebody was crucified.

All we know and need to know is Isa(as) was not crucified.
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Sojourn
02-09-2014, 06:11 AM
Peace be with you,

Originally Posted by greenhill

As you said, the Gnostic (that predate Christianity) believed the same as what is propagated by the Quran, and along comes a belief formed at a later date that contradicts the earlier belief (and the words of the Qur'an) and has somehow becomes the 'new reality' when actually is false.
Let me address this one point so as to avoid any confusion. When I said that Gnosticism predates Christianity, I meant that it predates Jesus himself. Some of it's followers incorporated Christian elements into their teachings and then began proposing that they possessed the true teachings of Jesus, teachings which explicitly contradicted what Jesus was known to have taught.

They believed for example that the God of the Old Testament (i.e. the God of Abraham, Moses, David, etc) was actually a different god from the God of the New Testament. In fact, they believed the Old Testament God was an evil deity because he created matter, which in their worldview imprisoned the soul and was therefore evil. They believed in a cosmic battle between the Evil God who created the world, and the Good God ("The Father") who is attempting to liberate people spiritually, and the solution the Gnostics proposed was contained in the name of their movement, "Gnosis", or knowledge (specifically the so called secret knowledge they claimed to possess) was necessary for liberation. Jesus was seen as one of many manifestations of God, almost akin to a Hindu avatar, with the specific exception that he did not bear flesh and was pure spirit, and consequently why his crucifixion was an illusion.

Now it's rather interesting to note that the big emphasis among many early Christian writers was that Jesus possessed flesh and that his suffering was real. Here is one example from Saint Ignatius of Antioch (c 110 AD), who was the third leader after St Peter the Apostle in Antioch, one of the earliest Christian communities, and himself a disciple of St John the Apostle. He was gloriously martyred in Rome by being fed to beasts (his iconography depicts him being mauled by lions) but prior to his martyrdom, he wrote several letters to the existing Christian communities of his time, and in these letters he often attacked the errors of Gnostic teaching. I point this out because it has some relevance to the discussion at hand:

"Stop your ears, therefore, when any one speaks to you at variance with Jesus Christ, who was descended from David, and was also of Mary; who was truly born, and ate and drank. He was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate; He was truly crucified, and [truly] died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. He was also truly raised from the dead, His Father quickening Him, even as after the same manner His Father will so raise up us who believe in Him by Christ Jesus, apart from whom we do not possess the true life.

"But if, as some that are without God, that is, the unbelieving, say, that He only seemed to suffer (they themselves only seeming to exist), then why am I in bonds? Why do I long to be exposed to the wild beasts? Do I therefore die in vain? Am I not then guilty of falsehood against [the cross of] the Lord?

"Flee, therefore, those evil offshoots [of Satan], which produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies. For these men are not the planting of the Father. For if they were, they would appear as branches of the cross, and their fruit would be incorruptible. By it He calls you through His passion, as being His members. The head, therefore, cannot be born by itself, without its members; God, who is [the Saviour] Himself, having promised their union.
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians, sections 9-11, c 110 AD
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0106.htm


I hope it is becoming ever more clear why the Quran supporting the Gnostic concept of an illusory crucifixion is as perplexing as it is problematic. Though once again, it is unclear to me as to how the verse in question is actually interpreted, and I would like to have a proper Islamic understanding of it (that is, I don't want to approach the verse with an preconceived notion, and want to understand it as Muhammad and his followers would have understood it.)


Peace be with you all
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greenhill
02-10-2014, 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
When I said that Gnosticism predates Christianity, I meant that it predates Jesus himself.
Sorry, my bad!

Originally Posted by Sojourn
why the Quran supporting the Gnostic concept of an illusory crucifixion is as perplexing as it is problematic.
.... in which case, I think any similarities between the Gnostic concept and the Qur'an may be purely coincidental.

Originally Posted by Sojourn
it is unclear to me as to how the verse in question is actually interpreted, and I would like to have a proper Islamic understanding of it (that is, I don't want to approach the verse with an preconceived notion, and want to understand it as Muhammad and his followers would have understood it.)
I hope I can be considered to be amongst the prophet Muhammad s a w and his followers and I understood it as being Jesus was never put to the cross. No preconceived notion here. That is the proper islamic understanding. As far as I know, there is no other versions of Jesus being put to the cross in any islamic documentation.


:peace:
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Ahmad H
02-10-2014, 03:40 PM
I wonder about what the explanations for this verse say on the substitution theory on Jesus (as) for the crucifixion. There is no confirmed report on what happened, and I have not seen any explanations which stem from the Holy Prophet (saw) on this. Doesn't this mean that there is no exact story on what exactly occurred? In one case Judas is mentioned, and in another Tatianos (don't even know who this is) is mentioned. These are conflicting reports which make no sense from what I have read. Where exactly do these originate from?
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greenhill
02-10-2014, 04:56 PM
I missed this earlier...:embarrass

Originally Posted by Sojourn
The real difference between us is that Muslims believe salvation can be obtained through works, so long as one's good deeds outweigh their bad ones.
It is hard work, but very possible. Allah is Most Forgiving and Most Merciful. We can repent, seek forgiveness. Avoid temptations, be charitable, protect the weak etc. It is only of two things, submit or not.


Originally Posted by Sojourn
We believe rather that it is impossible for man to appease God by works, and that only an act of God could remedy our situation.
This is the easy way out. It is easier to believe it is impossible to appease God for our failings. You do not believe in a Merciful God? Allah knows we will make mistakes. But we will have to learn from the mistake and ask for forgiveness and still worship Him. It is your effort in up keeping the faith that will speak for you on the day of reckoning. The cold sweat you suffered from fighting the temptations to the deadly sins/vices (figuratively speaking).

This life is a test. It is up to us to find the path.

We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. Qur'an (2:38)

When Adam as was sent to earth, these were the words spoken. The message is there. The parting message from Allah to Adam as. Where does these words appear? Here in the Qur'an. Stating that here is the guidance that comes to you (me) from Him. Do we not see?


:peace:
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greenhill
02-10-2014, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
I am not wanting to debate but I'm curious what Islam says happened to the person "crucified" in Jesus's place...did the person get raised back alive? or did they stay dead...
:D

Don't think I have come across anything about the 'substitute' but Allah is Most Wise. If it was a person in Jesus' like, then may he be given a martyr's death. imsad
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syed_z
02-10-2014, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
Originally Posted by Sojourn
The real difference between us is that Muslims believe salvation can be obtained through works, so long as one's good deeds outweigh their bad ones.
It is hard work, but very possible. Allah is Most Forgiving and Most Merciful. We can repent, seek forgiveness. Avoid temptations, be charitable, protect the weak etc. It is only of two things, submit or not.
Salaam to every one....

Thanks for starting this thread Sojourn.... in addition to what Brother Greenhill has mentioned that it is not only good works on the basis of which Muslims can claim Paradise, rather it is only and only Mercy of Allah (swt) through which we would enter the abode of peace .....This is what Islam teaches us and the Prophet (saw) in one of the traditions have mentioned that even he himself cannot enter paradise would it not be for the Mercy of Allah (swt)....



Narrated by Abu Huraira Allah's Apostle said, "The deeds of anyone of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)." They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Apostle?" He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His mercy on me. Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)." (Sahih Bukhari)

The Quran in Chapter 6 Verse 12 gives us a message that it is Only the Grace and Mercy of Allah (swt) through which subsists His entire creation and it would not have been possible for them to exist had it not been there....

(06:12) Say "Unto whom belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth?" Say: "Unto God, who has willed upon Himself the law of gracy and mercy."
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Sojourn
02-10-2014, 08:00 PM
Peace be with you,

I'm at work right now but I'm eager to address this erroneous view which two posters have endorsed, namely salvation by faith alone, and essentially one can do what they want and make it to heaven if they just believe. This is an erroneous theological opinion, and I repeat again it is wrong. As I said I would like to address the misconception but I have been already labeled a missionary, and so my addressing the issue may be interpreted as my attempt to convert you. I'll probably just send you both a private message regarding this unless a mod gives me the green light :)

Pax et bonum
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Muhammad
02-10-2014, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
As I said I would like to address the misconception but I have been already labeled a missionary, and so my addressing the issue may be interpreted as my attempt to convert you. I'll probably just send you both a private message regarding this unless a mod gives me the green light :)
I explained in my private message that it was particular actions that were interpreted as missionary activity rather than those posts where you are clarifying something about Christianity. Please avoid sending anyone private messages on this subject - you should respond on the public forum and if it is not allowed there, then in general, taking it to private message would also not be allowed.
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Scimitar
02-10-2014, 10:43 PM
the following video was made by Christians and uploaded by a Muslim, it claims that Jesus pbuh never died on the cross and presents evidences to back up its claim:

contains background music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJj_vyDBMUk

Scimi
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MustafaMc
02-11-2014, 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
I'm eager to address this erroneous view which two posters have endorsed, namely salvation by faith alone, and essentially one can do what they want and make it to heaven if they just believe.
I don't see how these questions are related to the "The Crucifixion and the Quran", nor do I see how they can be clarification of Islamic beliefs.
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MustafaMc
02-11-2014, 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I wonder about what the explanations for this verse say on the substitution theory on Jesus (as) for the crucifixion.
I don't believe there is any hadith that indicates a substitution being made for Jesus. The commentary, "Towards Understanding the Qur'an" by Mawdudi states, "We are not in a position now to find out how and why such a confusion arose. As no authentic source of information is available to us, it would be inappropriate to conjecture and speculate about the cause of the misapprehension which led the Jews to believe that they had crucified Jesus, the son of Mary, whereas he had already passed far beyond their grasp."
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Sojourn
02-11-2014, 01:05 AM
Peace be with you,

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I don't see how these questions are related to the "The Crucifixion and the Quran", nor do I see how they can be clarification of Islamic beliefs.
Just so that I'm on the same page here, is it against the rules or would it cause a post removal to address a misconception a poster may have on a non-Islamic topic?
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Sojourn
02-11-2014, 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I don't believe there is any hadith that indicates a substitution being made for Jesus. The commentary, "Towards Understanding the Qur'an" by Mawdudi states, "We are not in a position now to find out how and why such a confusion arose. As no authentic source of information is available to us, it would be inappropriate to conjecture and speculate about the cause of the misapprehension which led the Jews to believe that they had crucified Jesus, the son of Mary, whereas he had already passed far beyond their grasp."
It's a very cryptic verse and does not bring any clarity to what really happened. A Muslim once suggested to me that perhaps Jesus was crucified but did not die. I suppose in the end for whatever reason this verse was left vague, and not even the Muslim scholars have knowledge of it but only conjecture.
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greenhill
02-11-2014, 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Just so that I'm on the same page here, is it against the rules or would it cause a post removal to address a misconception a poster may have on a non-Islamic topic?
Apologies, but I really cannot answer that question...:hmm:

Originally Posted by Sojourn
It's a very cryptic verse and does not bring any clarity to what really happened. A Muslim once suggested to me that perhaps Jesus was crucified but did not die. I suppose in the end for whatever reason this verse was left vague, and not even the Muslim scholars have knowledge of it but only conjecture.
All that is really said about the matter of crucifixion was that Jesus was never crucified. However else it was described the message remains the same, that Jesus was not crucified and that is all we need to know as muslims because we are now told to follow the teachings of the latest messenger of Allah, prophet Muhammad pbuh just as the Jews were told to follow the teachings of Jesus a.s. back then but they refused, similar to the Jews and Christians when prophet Muhammad pbuh was sent with the Scripture.

As you said, 'a muslim once suggested..' considering that there over a billion muslims in this world there will be those who will say whatever they feel which may not be in keeping. The message in the Qur'an was just to clarify that Jesus was not crucified despite what was believed. It only becomes vague when we try to read what is not there. But the essence of the message is vey clear. Jesus was brought unto Him and not killed at the cross.

:peace:
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MustafaMc
02-11-2014, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Just so that I'm on the same page here, is it against the rules or would it cause a post removal to address a misconception a poster may have on a non-Islamic topic?
The point is that this is not a comparative religion section to debate salvation from the Christian and Islamic perspectives, but if you would like to briefly clarify what you perceive as misconceptions conveyed on this thread and think you can shed new light on the matter, then give it a go. We should quickly bring the discussion back to the opening topic though.
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MustafaMc
02-11-2014, 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
It's a very cryptic verse and does not bring any clarity to what really happened.
No, that was not a verse/ayat that I quoted, but rather what Sayyid Abul A'la Mawdudi wrote as a commentary. It does no good for us to speculate on what may or may not have happen, but I think we have made it clear that the Islamic belief on the matter is that Jesus did not die on the cross. If Jesus did not die, then he could not have been raised from the dead, which brings to my mind words written by Paul in I Corinthians 15:16-17 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. From this Biblical passage we see that the Qur'anic negation of the crucifixion is as relevant and as important as its denial of Jesus being God or the Son of God, for without the crucifixion Christianity collapses like a house of cards.
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Ahmad H
02-11-2014, 04:38 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
"We are not in a position now to find out how and why such a confusion arose. As no authentic source of information is available to us, it would be inappropriate to conjecture and speculate about the cause of the misapprehension which led the Jews to believe that they had crucified Jesus, the son of Mary, whereas he had already passed far beyond their grasp."
Wait, doesn't that last part just say that he was substituted even though he said that it is not authentic that he was necessarily substituted? What does he mean by "whereas he had already passed far beyond their grasp"?
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Sojourn
02-11-2014, 05:22 AM
Peace be with you all,

I am very grateful to the mod team for allowing me to respond to these periphery issues, this will be my last post on these subjects.

Originally Posted by greenhill
It is hard work, but very possible. Allah is Most Forgiving and Most Merciful. We can repent, seek forgiveness. Avoid temptations, be charitable, protect the weak etc. It is only of two things, submit or not.

This is the easy way out. It is easier to believe it is impossible to appease God for our failings. You do not believe in a Merciful God? Allah knows we will make mistakes. But we will have to learn from the mistake and ask for forgiveness and still worship Him. It is your effort in up keeping the faith that will speak for you on the day of reckoning. The cold sweat you suffered from fighting the temptations to the deadly sins/vices (figuratively speaking).
We got on this subject when the necessity of the crucifixion was questioned, and I had mentioned that the real issue boils down to believing whether works can close the gap between us and God. Now the interesting thing about this, and I was thinking of creating a new thread but since it touches upon the crucifixion aspect Ill start it here, is that Muslims and Christians share similar views about human origins, and there are some profound things that deserve reflection here.

We both believe that God created Adam and Eve in a perfect world called paradise, where our parents were free from suffering, possessed full bliss, and most importantly had an intimate union with God. Now what did our first parents do to deserve this? The answer is nothing, Allah had given it to them out of the goodness of his will, it was the greatest gift that could be offered to a creature. And so we realize the gravity of their sin when they acted against him, which led to their being casting out from paradise and entering the temporal and difficult world we live in.

Now here is a question to ponder, why must we suffer the fallen fate Adam and Eve? Why were we not given a chance at paradise first, after all, God is merciful is he not? This is a mysterious question, one that deserves the Islamic response Allahu'alim, but it is wrong to say that he is not merciful. The fact is, we deserved not only to lose our state in paradise, but also our existence! The fact that God preserved our race despite such a transgression is a sign of great love and mercy indeed!

So the point of all this discussion is to lead to the following point: if the great God had offered us a gift we did not deserve, what can we do to gain it back? It's not a matter of mercy, for we were not worthy of paradise to begin with. What can I as a limited, finite, human being offer to the perfect God that would motivate him to give me what my parents had lost? There is nothing, absolutely nothing that could motivate a perfect being to give us what we did not deserve in the first place. It's first this the afterlife in the Old Testament was seen as a very gloomy place called sheol, all that one could hope for was a blessed life on earth, there was no paradise as the Quran depicts or heaven that Christians believe. That was not available to man at that point.

This life is a test. It is up to us to find the path.
I agree.


Pax et bonum
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Scimitar
02-11-2014, 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
It's a very cryptic verse and does not bring any clarity to what really happened. A Muslim once suggested to me that perhaps Jesus was crucified but did not die. I suppose in the end for whatever reason this verse was left vague, and not even the Muslim scholars have knowledge of it but only conjecture.
indeed, as Muslims, we take Allahs word. He has informed us already of plenty of things. Some things require faith also - maybe the biggest matters of conscience require faith in a creator, thus certain verses are left ambiguous in order to test faith. And none know the meanings of these except the Author, in this case - Allah.

And He tells us so in the same verse. being very clear about it.

Further elaboration has never been necessary for a Muslim to undertake. However, the anonymity the internet affords us, has seen the odd curious Muslim engage in research into these things. I must admit, I am one. I posted a video earlier in this thread where a Christian produced documentary claims that Jesus didn't die on the cross but survived also - I only posted this in order to know if you have explored this avenue of research and if so - what did it turn up?

The Quran makes it clear "they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him" - so in my opinion, Jesus pbuh was not even on the cross.

Who it was who took his place (if anyone), or if such an event even took place - are the questions which seem more important to me on this subject.

Scimi
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MustafaMc
02-11-2014, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
What does he mean by "whereas he had already passed far beyond their grasp"?
That he was raised up to the heavens.
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Muhammad
02-11-2014, 04:23 PM
Greetings Sojourn,

Originally Posted by Sojourn
There is nothing, absolutely nothing that could motivate a perfect being to give us what we did not deserve in the first place.
Can't an All-Loving, All-Merciful God grant to His servants whatever He pleases? Or do you limit God's Love and Mercy?

And so we realize the gravity of their sin when they acted against him, which led to their being casting out from paradise and entering the temporal and difficult world we live in.

Now here is a question to ponder, why must we suffer the fallen fate Adam and Eve? Why were we not given a chance at paradise first, after all, God is merciful is he not? This is a mysterious question, one that deserves the Islamic response Allahu'alim, but it is wrong to say that he is not merciful.
It was Satan who disobeyed God out of arrogance and pride, not Adam and Eve. Satan even blamed his Lord for his disbelief and stubbornness. On the other hand, Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan, and regretted their action. Adam admitted his sin, declared his repentance and turned to Allah :swt:, and Allaah :swt: accepted it from him.

Moreover, Allaah :swt: had already decreed that man was to be sent to Earth:

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know." [Qur'an 2:30]

Interestingly, this verse is at the beginning of the passage regarding the first mention of the story of Adam and Eve in the Qur'an, before any mention of the tree they were forbidden to eat from.

You ask concerning our fate on Earth:


Allaah is the All-Knowing and Most Wise. He created Aadam (Adam icon2 1 - ) and his descendants as inheritors of the earth to see their deeds. Allaah ordained that Aadam would eat from the tree and that would be reason for him to be brought down to earth. Allaah did not make him live on the earth from the beginning so that the devil's enmity toward him would become evident and so that he would be wary of him.

Aadam along with his descendants being brought down to earth is one of the greatest favors of Allaah to him and his descendants. Allaah has great wisdom in doing so, wisdom that would not have been achieved if Aadam had remained in Paradise.

Ibn Al-Qayyim icon6 1 - pointed out some of this wisdom as per the following:

1. Aadam would return to Paradise in the best condition. Allaah, The Almighty, wanted to make him and his descendants taste the hardship of the worldly life - its distress, its concerns, its grief, and this would make them know the honor of going to Paradise.

2. It is only by knowing the opposite of something that one appreciates it, and if they were brought up in Paradise, they would not have known its value.

3. Allaah wanted to command, forbid and test them. Paradise is not a place of Takleef (i.e. imposition of religious obligations), so Allaah brought them down to earth and made them experience those things so that they get a reward that could not be attained without commands and prohibitions.

4. Allaah wanted to select from among them (sons of Aadam) prophets, messengers, martyrs and allies of Allaah, those who would love Him and He would love them, so He put them with their enemies and tested them by doing so.

5. The effects of the Names and Attributes of Allaah would become evident to them. His Wisdom necessitated that He bring down Aadam and his descendants to a place where He would show them the effects of His beautiful Names and Attributes: He forgives whom He wills and has mercy upon whom He wills, He humbles whom He wills and honors whom He wills, He avenges whom He wills, He gives to whom He wills and holds from whom He wills, and Allaah provides for whom He wills, and so on. These are the effects of His Names and Attributes.

Allaah Knows best.

https://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/i...waId&Id=231709


Please also read the following post:

Originally Posted by Insaanah
Originally Posted by arh1
I was wondering how you ascribe value to his perfection if it does not cost anything to forgive man for his imperfection.
Addressing the latter words of your sentence first, as I mentioned above, in Islam, there is no concept of God demanding perfection from us, and us having to be forgiven for not being able to live up to that perfection. God is so Kind and Loving, that perfection has never been demanded of us, and we are not punished for being imperfect.

We are required to obey God, and the messengers He sent with His message, and we have been told which things are forbidden for us and what we should avoid. When we do those things that we shouldn't, then we repent and seek God's forgiveness, being truly sorry for what we have done, trying our best not to repeat it, and acknowledging Allah as being the only One on Whom we depend, for the forgiveness of our sins.

God is so Forgiving and relenting towards us, that He loves forgiving:

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them".

[Saheeh Muslim] Arabic/English book reference : Book 1, Hadith 422

That is not to say that we should deliberately sin, in fact we should resolve not to repeat past sins. However Allah loves forgiving, and this is to show how forgiving Allah is, even knowing that we will sin.

Originally Posted by arh1
I was wondering how you ascribe value to his perfection if it does not cost anything to forgive man for his imperfection.
Addressing your middle words about cost, it seems that if God gives you something free, you do not attach value to it because there was no cost. I've never heard those thoughts before. It is like viewing Allah as a human being that gave you a present that cost nothing, and you view that as being stingy and not generous. We seek Allah's refuge from that. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, never ending forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it.

Originally Posted by arh1
I was wondering how you ascribe value to his perfection if it does not cost anything to forgive man for his imperfection.
Addressing your first words, it is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection.

What you describe above is not truly forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another.

*Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf.

*In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

If newborns are not born sinful, when do they become sinful? Is it just when they do bad things?
From my understanding, children become accountable from puberty.

“The Pen has been lifted from three: from the child until he reaches puberty, from the sleeper until he wakes up, and from the one who has lost his mind until he recovers.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4402)

We do not refer to people as "sinful". Someone could have committed a big sin, but then sought forgiveness from Allah and made it up to the one he wronged against. It is nobody's prerogative to label another as sinful.

Can we outweigh bad with good?
Yes, in Islam we believe this is the case. On the day of judgement our good and bad deeds will be on each side of a weighing scale. Obviously, the more good deeds we have, the better. And the more chance of the bad deeds being outweighed.

If so, what does god's forgiveness mean and is it really necessary?
Deeds alone do not determine the outcome. If we think our deeds alone are going to make us successful, then we are wrong.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
"There is none whose deeds alone can secure salvation for him". They said: "Allah's Messenger, not even you?" Thereupon he said: "Not even I, but that the Mercy of Allah should take hold of me."

Saheeh Muslim USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 39, Hadith 6763
Arabic reference : Book 53, Hadith 7293

Is there any assurance of salvation?
None of us can say, "We are saved". This is what the day of judgement is for. We strive with faith and deeds and obedience to God, do our best, and trust in His Promise, and His Justice, and hoping for His Mercy.

For Christians, this may be hard. They believe that by accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour they have an assurance of salvation, and view the Islamic position on salvation as being one of uncertainty. As a rough (not exact) analogy, the Christian position, is like one sitting an exam, but somebody has said they'll take all your bad marks for you, and if you let them do that, you'll pass. In the world, this would be viewed as cheating and as unjust. Injustice cannot be ascribed to God. The Islamic position is that of one sitting an exam, doing their best, and then awaiting their results, based on what they've done, and of course hoping for the mercy of God.

Please also be aware that Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the most noble and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we deify him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, was divine, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He will return to earth near the end of time.

Hope that helped a bit.

Any errors contained in the post are from me. And Allah knows best in all matters.

* Quoted from Uncle Woodrow.
From: http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...ation-sin.html
Reply

Muhammad
02-11-2014, 04:37 PM
:salamext:
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I wonder about what the explanations for this verse say on the substitution theory on Jesus (as) for the crucifixion. There is no confirmed report on what happened, and I have not seen any explanations which stem from the Holy Prophet (saw) on this.
In the online abdriged version of Tafir ibn Kathir, it mentions:

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised `Isa to the heavens, `Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, `There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.' He then asked, `Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise)' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered and `Isa asked him to sit down. `Isa again asked for a volunteer, and the young man kept volunteering and `Isa asking him to sit down. Then the young man volunteered again and `Isa said, `You will be that man,' and the resemblance of `Isa was cast over that man while `Isa ascended to heaven from a hole in the house. When the Jews came looking for `Isa, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of `Isa's followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, Al-Ya`qubiyyah (Jacobites), said, `Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to heaven.' Another group, An-Nasturiyyah (Nestorians), said, `The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to heaven.' Another group, Muslims, said, `The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad .'' This statement has an authentic chain of narration leading to Ibn `Abbas, and An-Nasa'i narrated it through Abu Kurayb who reported it from Abu Mu`awiyah. Many among the Salaf stated that `Isa asked if someone would volunteer for his appearance to be cast over him, and that he will be killed instead of `Isa, for which he would be his companion in Paradise.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...=585&Itemid=59

It appears that there is a source for the suggestion about someone else being killed in the place of Prophet Isa :as:.


Originally Posted by Sojourn
I read Ibn Kathir's commentary on the verse and he suggests that another disciple of Jesus was made to look like him, and that this disciple took the place of Jesus on the cross, although there is no source that reveals where Ibn Kathir got this notion from.
I think this has been addressed now, so let us end the thread here to prevent unnecessary speculation or going off-topic.
Reply

MustafaMc
03-02-2014, 06:04 PM
As the opening posts so notes, Ibn Kathir makes the case in "Stories of the Prophets" that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus - Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, “Just before Allah raised `Isa to the heavens, `Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, ‘There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.’ He then asked, ‘Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise).’ One of the youngest ones among them volunteered... WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL SOURCE FOR THIS HADITH?

Is this also the basis for Mohsin/Khan "Noble Qur'an" translation to interject the portion in brackets that another person was killed instead of Jesus in ayat 4:157? And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of 'Îsa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام]:

The Saheeh International puts 'another' in brackets to imply the same meaning: And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

The Nawawi Foundation "Majestic Qur'an" translation does not: And because of their saying: "We slew the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, Allah's Messenger." They slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared to them; and those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge of it except the pursuit of a conjecture; [but] certainly they slew him not., but the footnote notes "... It was Judas Iscariot, who sought to betray Jesus, who was arrested instead and crucified."

The Sayyid Abul A'la Mawdudi "Towards Understand the Qur'an" translation states: and their saying: "We slew the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah' - whereas in fact they had neither slain him nor crucified him but the matter was made dubious to them - and those who differ about it too were in a state of doubt. They have no definite knowledge of it, but merely follow conjecture; and they surely slew him not, but the footnote notes "... the person whom the Jews subsequently crucified was someone else rather than Jesus, someone who for one reason or another was mistaken as Jesus."

The Abdel Haleem translation does not make this supposition: and said, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.’ (They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him—

Neither does the Markaduke Pickthall translation: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Neither does the Ahmad Zaki Hamad "Gracious Qur'an" translation: And for their saying: Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God! However, they did not kill him. Nor did they crucify him. Rather it was made to appear to them as so. And as to those who are in dispute with regard to the crucifixion, they themselves remain in doubt about it. They have no sure knowledge of it except the following of mere conjecture. Yet for a certainty they did not kill him!

And neither does the Yusuf Ali "Holy Qur'an":That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- and the footnote notes: "...it is not profitable to discuss the many doubts and conjectures among the early Christian sects and Muslim theologians..."

From my perspective, Muslims loose credibility with Christians when a supposition is made about the crucifixion without basis in the Qur'an or authentic hadith tracing back to Muhammad (saaws). Why can we not leave it as the Qur'an states and leave the details of the 'how' unspecified?
Reply

MustafaMc
04-23-2014, 04:01 AM
Christians celebrated Easter last Sunday. The supposed resurrection of Jesus after his supposed crucifixion is a critical element of the Christian faith. The Qur'an states unequivocally that Jesus was not crucified, but that it was made to appear so. The belief that Judas Iscariot was crucified instead of Jesus is common among Muslims. This story is found in the Gospel of Barnabas, but I would like to have a hadith that traces back directly to Prophet Muhammad (saaws) to use as evidence. Does anyone have a reference for such a hadith that the likeness of Jesus was put on another (such as Judas), or that someone else volunteered to be crucified instead of Jesus?
Reply

letusreason
07-02-2014, 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc;n2231396
Christians celebrated Easter last Sunday. The supposed resurrection of Jesus after his supposed crucifixion is a critical element of the Christian faith. The Qur'an states unequivocally that Jesus was not crucified, but that it was made to appear so. The belief that Judas Iscariot was crucified instead of Jesus is common among Muslims. This story is found in the Gospel of Barnabas, but I would like to have a hadith that traces back directly to Prophet Muhammad (saaws) to use as evidence. Does anyone have a reference for such a hadith that the likeness of Jesus was put on another (such as Judas), or that someone else volunteered to be crucified instead of Jesus?
WOW So in islam judas is a saint. WHre as in christianity he is a devil.
Reply

greenhill
07-26-2014, 08:12 AM
Peace to you letusreason..

I think you have jumped to conclusions.. Not reasoning at all.

MustaffaMC was just saying that he believed from what he has read that it may have been Judas that was crucified but as far as I know, we do not know who it was. As such we cannot hastilty say that Judas is what ever you have said, model example. And then develop implications on existence of sin and stuff from this. How easily it is to go astray this way.

Peace

:shade:
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