Islam's stance on gaining entry into Heaven

[illumination]

What is Islams stance on gaining entry into heaven?

[Hulk]

I speak based on my own limited understanding. In short, no one shall enter Heaven except by the Mercy of God. In regards to muslims and non-muslims, the one who sees the truth in Islam and yet still reject it will be going the other direction.

I believe that God has made it easy to get to Heaven, but we humans tend to sometimes push ourselves the other way.

[greenhill]

In essence to associate no other deity to Allah and to follow His commands.

That is the basic passport to heaven. The question of when you get in is a different one :D

[Ahmad H]

Allah is the Best of Judges. The Traditions mention some very surprising instances about how people get entry into Heaven. Just remember this, that whatever you do, Allah will judge you in the most just manner, and you will know when He does that that whatever you were judged to go to, you were judged most fairly in the end.

We don't remember everything in our lives, on the Day of Judgment, everything will be brought out to the open and then that will show you just how well or badly you did in this world. You don't take anything with you when you die except your deeds. All will be very clear in the end. That is the most important thing to keep in mind. Every single person is different.

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[fatimataybia46]

Just do the good deeds and avoid the bad deeds, if you really want to enter into heaven.

[saif-uddin]

What is Islams stance on gaining entry into heaven?

Peace be Upon those who recieve Guidance!

Summarised in Surah Al-Asr (113 Chapter of the Quran)

Ayah 1 : By Al-'Asr (the time).

Ayah 2 : Verily! Man is in loss,

Ayah 3 : Except those who believe (in Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, and recommend one another to the truth (i.e. order one another to perform all kinds of good deeds (Al-Ma'ruf) which Allah has ordained, and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds (Al-Munkar) which Allah has forbidden), and recommend one another to patience (for the sufferings, harms, and injuries which one may encounter in Allah's Cause during preaching His religion of Islamic Monotheism or Jihad, etc.).

minimum requirement for Entry to Jannah

1. Must have Imaan = Belief in Allah ta'ala his Messenger :saws: and all of the Prophets (peace be upon them), the Angels, Paradise, Jahannam, Qadr, Judgement Day, etc

2. Must have Righteous Deeds, (these back up ones Imaan, mre Belief/Lip-service isn't good enough)

3. Recommend one another to the Haqq/Truth

4. Have Patience and Perseverance

regards

[gurufabbes]

Could I ask the obvious point why Gd in his infinite wisdom cares whether you believe in "all" of the prophets?

That you'd need to believe in monotheism, and that you'd need to live a just life, following a moral code is one thing, but why on earth he follows which of the prophets you believe in or not doesn't exactly follow.

[Insaanah]

Could I ask the obvious point why Gd in his infinite wisdom cares whether you believe in "all" of the prophets?

That you'd need to believe in monotheism, and that you'd need to live a just life, following a moral code is one thing, but why on earth he follows which of the prophets you believe in or not doesn't exactly follow.

It very much does.

The Prophets are messengers of God. When God sends guidance for human beings, it is through messengers and Prophets, the last of whom was Muhammad (peace, blessings, grace, and salutations of Allah be upon him). God chooses whom He will amongst the noblest and upright of humanity.

When you rebel against a prophet, reject him, blaspheme him, or kill him, you are in effect, rebelling against God. Not because that human being was God, no no no, but because God sent him for you, and you reject him and the guidance he was sent with, for you. You are rejecting Gods choice of human being, rejecting Gods guidance. To then say but we believe in God is irrelevant. You can't pick and choose what you like about God and what you don't, what you accept from God and what you don't.

Allah has sent a succession of prophets to people throughout the ages, to convey His message to them, and with guidance to show people how He wants them to live and worship Him. Muslims believe in all the prophets Allah sent, and do not reject or blaspheme any of them, from the first, to the last and final prophet, Muhammad, peace be on them all. They were the purest and noblest of humanity and were not divine in any way.

Allah sent all the prophets with the same message and not different messages. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

So Islam is not a new faith, but is the same ultimate universal truth that God revealed to all the prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be on them), and the same thing they all taught. Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, the meaning loosely translating as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, places and peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

With time, the message got forgotten or corrupted. So people started worshipping other gods along with Him, made idols, said that God begot a son, said that certain people were incarnations of God, some rejected belief in God altogether, while others elevated the status of some prophets to divine, or at the other end, rejected or blasphemed some of the prophets.

Whenever God's message got distorted by people, or forgotten, a new messenger was sent, not with any new or changed message, but reinforcing the actual message that God sent all the messengers with, the actual core beliefs that people were taught from the beginning of humanity, confirming the true parts of previous teachings and scriptures, and correcting wrong beliefs and misconceptions that had crept in.

God required that whenever He sent a new messenger, that messenger should be followed along with any new scripture given to him. This chain of messengers culminates in prophet Muhammad (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be upon him), who is the last and final prophet and messenger. Since his prophethood, God's message is available unchanged and unadulterated, for the entire world, until the end of time. He wasn't sent as prophet and messenger for a specific group of people and specific time (e.g. as Moses and Jesus were to the Children of Israel), but he was sent for all the world, for all time, until the Day of Judgement. Thus he is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind, for now, and for all time to come. He is the messenger who must now be followed.

JESUS - Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the noblest and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we deify him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He'll return to earth near the end of time.

Hope that helps a bit.

Peace.

[gurufabbes]

Thanks for the long reply.

Nevertheless, I still differ with what you've said.

To then say but we believe in God is irrelevant. You can't pick and choose what you like about God and what you don't, what you accept from God and what you don't.

That it's perhaps a problem and needs rectification, is one thing (particularly as it would deviate from the "full message" of Islam, from your perspective) but it seems to be a matter that is theological/historical, and connected with non-divine individuals. Especially when you're not of that generation that apparently "rejected" them when clearly if it had been true, you would have had more reason to believe it if the signs were there.

That it would be apart of the necessary conditions to attain salvation seems well, selective.
As you've presented through your message (the story and raison d'être of Islam) it is a "universal" message, as Christianity is. The problem with "universal" is that it extends over all and has an answer for everything, leaving no room for others.

Hence why this condition seems to me almost like a party line: get behind it or else. That a sceptic would wonder, well is there as a stipulation by its theologians to justify the place of Islam above the other religions, and why ultimately everyone, including the ahl-al-kitab need to convert and not stick to their old ways? Rather than having multiple ways towards salvation.

As I am fully aware, you're simply repeating and trying to explain the rulings and conclusions that are apart of Islam, answering my question, which I am grateful for. I am giving my perspective of why I think this stands out.

[Insaanah]

Greetings gurufabbes,

Firstly, I just remembered we had a similar question some time ago about prophets from one of your brothers in faith, so I'm posting the link here for you as you may find some of the answers given there informative:

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...ets-islam.html

Secondly, just to point out, that ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy.

As you've presented through your message (the story and raison d'être of Islam) it is a "universal" message, as Christianity is.

Christianity is not universal. It did not exist before Christ (peace be upon him). Different story that current day Christianity is not what Christ (peace be on him) preached. Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion, the only message. Submission and surrender to Allah, and obeying His commands and guidance sent to us through His messengers. It is what Noah (peace be upon him) preached, what all the prophets and messengers preached, culminating in the last messenger Muhammad (may the peace, salutations and blessings of Allah be upon him), who was sent not just for a specific people at a specific time, but for the whole world, for all time to come.

That a sceptic would wonder, well is there as a stipulation by its theologians to justify the place of Islam above the other religions,

No, this is not a stipulation originated from theologians. This is from God Himself, as He has stated/commanded many times in the Qur'an, though I have only picked very few quotes here for brevity, and through the Prophet (peace be upon him), as taught to him by God through angel Gabriel (peace be upon him),and recorded in the hadeeth.

God says in the Qur'an (translation):

"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous." (2:177)

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."" (2:285)

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray." (4:136)

"Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."" (2:136)

The famous hadeeth of Gabriel (peace be upon him), abbreviated for relevance:

Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) reported:
One day the Messenger of Allah (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) appeared before the public that a man came to him and said: Prophet of Allah, (tell me) what is Iman (faith). Upon this he (the Prophet) replied: That you believe in Allah, His angels, His Books, His meeting, His Messengers and that you believe in the Resurrection hereafter. He (again) said: Messenger of Allah, (tell me) what does al-Islam signify. He (the Prophet) replied: Al-Islam signifies that you worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him and you establish obligatory prayer and you pay the obligatory poor-rate (Zakat) and you observe the fast of Ramadan. He (the inquirer) again said: Messenger of Allah, what does al-Ihsan imply? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, and in case you fail to see Him, then observe prayer (with this idea in your mind) that (at least) He is seeing you. ....[part removed for brevity]... He (the narrator, Abu Huraira) said: Then the person turned back and went away. The Messenger of Allah (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) said: Bring that man back to me. They (the Companions of the Prophet present there) went to bring him back, but they saw nothing there. Upon this the Messenger of Allah (peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) remarked: he was Gabriel, who came to teach the people their religion.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 8 e
In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 5
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 1, Hadith 4
(deprecated numbering scheme)

Hence why this condition seems to me almost like a party line: get behind it or else.

Belief in all the prophets and messengers, is a part of the Islamic creed. Disbelief in one prophet, immediately takes one outside the fold of Islam. This is not a party line, or a line of Muslims only, but of all, who at their time obeyed their messengers, be that at the time of Noah, or Moses, or Jesus or Muhammad (peace be on them all). It is God's line, not ours.

The way to salvation has always been one, since Adam (peace be upon him). Islam is that message in pristine, preserved, unadulterated form. If a person obeyed the teachings from God that Noah (peace be upon him) preached at Noahs time, that person submitted to Allah (translated as Muslim). Same for any other prophet. So there will be many in heaven who will not even have heard of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Also, to point out, that ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy.

We believe in all the Prophets we've been told about in the Qur'an and hadeeth, and all the ones also whose names/stories we haven't been told about. All were from God, with the same essential message.

and why ultimately everyone, including the ahl-al-kitab need to convert and not stick to their old ways? Rather than having multiple ways towards salvation.

Yes the ahl al kitaab do need to become Muslims, as explained in my previous post, and we warmly, openly and urgently invite them to do so. When God sends a new messenger (there won't be one now), it becomes incumbent on those following the previous scriptures, to follow. Because the messenger is sent when the previous teachings have been corrupted/forgotten. That then is the message anew and unchanged, for people to follow. And indeed, many Christians and Jews at the time of the Prophet became Muslims when they saw that what he was teaching was the original message of their own scriptures and that he was the prophet to come foretold in them. They didn't see themselves as changing faiths, but as finding their original true faith. Since the time of Prophet Muhammad peace be on him, he is the messenger who must now be followed.

Especially when you're not of that generation that apparently "rejected" them when clearly if it had been true, you would have had more reason to believe it if the signs were there.

The Quran addresses verses directly to the Children of Israil, beginning them, "O Children of Israil". And some verses are about them, so that we do not repeat the same mistakes. In some verses, they are chastised for their killing and rejection of some of the Prophets.

"[They are] those who said, "Indeed, Allah has taken our promise not to believe any messenger until he brings us an offering which fire [from heaven] will consume." Say, "There have already come to you messengers before me with clear proofs and [even] that of which you speak. So why did you kill them, if you should be truthful?" Then if they deny you, [O Muhammad] - so were messengers denied before you, who brought clear proofs and written ordinances and the enlightening Scripture." (3:183-184)

You may not be of that generation, but you are here, here and now, and you are responsible for your own belief, and for the choices you make with regard to that. Some of your ancestors in faith were guilty of open rebellion against God and his messengers. But you don't have to be. The next natural step, is to accept Islam. The Qur'an states that it confirms the Torah, and the Injeel given to Jesus (Peace be upon him), and to believe in all the scriptures that God revealed, including the Torah and Injeel, is part of our articles of faith, even if we weren't around at the time those books were in their unadulterated original forms. Moses (peace be upon him) is the most mentioned Prophet in the Qur'an. You will feel like you have come home.

Peace.

[gurufabbes]

Thank you insaanah, I had a perusal of the thread you posted which discussed the status of prophets in Islam.

The fundamental thing that I gather from this is that Islam is about faith and not just practice.

Christianity is not universal. It did not exist before Christ (peace be upon him). Different story that current day Christianity is not what Christ (peace be on him) preached. Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion, the only message. Submission and surrender to Allah, and obeying His commands and guidance sent to us through His messengers. It is what Noah (peace be upon him) preached, what all the prophets and messengers preached, culminating in the last messenger Muhammad (may the peace, salutations and blessings of Allah be upon him), who was sent not just for a specific people at a specific time, but for the whole world, for all time to come.

I understand your position, but it is "universal" in the sense that it bases itself on a message that is for all mankind, and that all mankind should cling to to achieve salvation.
It is every bit as universalist in its presentation of complete package that is necessary condition for acceptance by the Almighty by "replacing" the previous messages.

No, this is not a stipulation originated from theologians. This is from God Himself, as He has stated/commanded many times in the Qur'an, though I have only picked very few quotes here for brevity, and through the Prophet (peace be upon him), as taught to him by God through angel Gabriel (peace be upon him),and recorded in the hadeeth.

Belief in all the prophets and messengers, is a part of the Islamic creed. Disbelief in one prophet, immediately takes one outside the fold of Islam. This is not a party line, or a line of Muslims only, but of all, who at their time obeyed their messengers, be that at the time of Noah, or Moses, or Jesus or Muhammad (peace be on them all). It is God's line, not ours.

Also, to point out, that ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy.

Thank you for the sources to back up what you're saying.

They clearly mention "messengers" as one would expect, but what in each context implies that one has to believe in all of them as a package? More precisely that, again, not believing in one of them is as bad disbelieving everything else?
As far as I can read from the sources, it could simply be gleaned that one has to believe that Gd sends messengers, and that they exist, not that you have to believe in all of them?

My discussions throughout my life with Muslims (a terrible source I admit, least of all because its hearsay, and also because not all Muslims are knowledgable) seems to show that some believe that there is no such requirement, that all monotheistic followers have some chance at salvation, based on their acts and character, rather than their adherence to the Islamic line and theology.
Indeed, I am not the first person to ask this question, and I do remember Muslims themselves asking this question to scholars as well.

I am also aware of some claiming that this a particularlist position, particularly of the more hardline schools of Islam which has gained more prominence over the years.

Again, I do not know, but this is what I've heard. (I'll probably provide more as I come across it)

The Quran addresses verses directly to the Children of Israil, beginning them, "O Children of Israil". And some verses are about them, so that we do not repeat the same mistakes. In some verses, they are chastised for their killing and rejection of some of the Prophets.

I will probably post another topic on this one.

You may not be of that generation, but you are here, here and now, and you are responsible for your own belief, and for the choices you make with regard to that. Some of your ancestors in faith were guilty of open rebellion against God and his messengers. But you don't have to be. The next natural step, is to accept Islam. The Qur'an states that it confirms the Torah, and the Injeel given to Jesus (Peace be upon him), and to believe in all the scriptures that God revealed, including the Torah and Injeel, is part of our articles of faith, even if we weren't around at the time those books were in their unadulterated original forms. Moses (peace be upon him) is the most mentioned Prophet in the Qur'an. You will feel like you have come home.

The bottom line will always be down to what seems more plausible, and where the evidence leads.
For some, certain arguments and evidence weigh more than others.

Blind faith I think (and probably will mention during my time on here) is a factor for all religions, as, as you've pointed out, it is impossible to have been a witness to every event in history and to know the plausibility or truth of testimonies of what one has not witnessed.

What one nevertheless has to go by is a mix of personal satisfaction with the arguments, backed up by evidence for the claims that are being put forward.
Given these things, and the mix with doubt that ensues, I personally find the faith vs practice to be skewed against certain people who may be more critical, or in the case of certain religions, are quite convinced that their own is equally or even more plausible.

This perhaps may explain in some ways, my logical discomfort with the insistence that only those who follow the full line, nomatter their good deeds, their good character, their sound faith in the One Gd, still have no hope for salvation.

Again, you've laid out the points and thank you.

[Insaanah]

The fundamental thing that I gather from this is that Islam is about faith and not just practice.

That is correct. Faith and practice must go hand in hand. This is why there are many verses which begin, "Indeed those who believe and do good deeds...".

I understand your position, but it is "universal" in the sense that it bases itself on a message that is for all mankind, and that all mankind should cling to to achieve salvation.
It is every bit as universalist in its presentation of complete package that is necessary condition for acceptance by the Almighty by "replacing" the previous messages.

I'd still respectfully disagree. The way I see it, a universal message from God has to be applicable to all times, all people and all places. If we take Christianity as it is today, it is about God begetting Christ (peace be upon him) and Christ (peace be upon him) being saviour. Did Noah (peace be upon him) preach that? No. Did Abraham (peace be upon him) preach that? No. Does God change his mind about the essential message for humanity? No. As for it being for all mankind, in the Bible, there is a statement attributed to Jesus (peace be upon him) saying, "And I was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) He is also said to have instructed the disciples : "These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)

The Qur'an also states that he was sent as a messenger to the Children of Israel:

"And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." (61:6)

"And He will [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.
And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.
Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path." (3:49-51)

Jesus's mission was not as a messenger to all mankind, as Prophet Muhammad peace be on him was, but to the Children of Israel.

Contrast with (continued from a longer passage about Moses and the Israelites):

...And Moses chose from his people seventy men for Our appointment. And when the earthquake seized them, he said, "My Lord, if You had willed, You could have destroyed them before and me [as well]. Would You destroy us for what the foolish among us have done? This is not but Your trial by which You send astray whom You will and guide whom You will. You are our Protector, so forgive us and have mercy upon us; and You are the best of forgivers.
And ordain for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter. Certainly we have turned unto You." [Allah] said, "My punishment - I afflict with it whom I will, but My mercy encompasses all things." So I will decree it for those who are pious and give zakah and those who believe in Our verses -
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.
Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:155-158)

They clearly mention "messengers" as one would expect, but what in each context implies that one has to believe in all of them as a package? More precisely that, again, not believing in one of them is as bad disbelieving everything else?
As far as I can read from the sources, it could simply be gleaned that one has to believe that Gd sends messengers, and that they exist, not that you have to believe in all of them?

The messengers implies all, without exception. Otherwise it would be "the messengers except..." . Also, if you look at 2:285 which I quoted in my previous post, and 3:84 which I have quoted later in this post, it says, "We make no distinction between any of them". What this means, is that we do not discriminate between them. We do not accept some, but reject others. We do not honour some, but blaspheme others. We believe in and wholeheartedly accept them all, as honoured and chosen servants of God, sent by God, with His guidance and instruction, to guide people, warn them , and give good tidings. So yes, one has to believe in them all, without any exception:

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment. But they who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not discriminate between any of them - to those He is going to give their rewards. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. (4:150-152

To reiterate, rejection of any Prophet, is rebellion against God who sent that Prophet, and rebellion against God's guidance and instruction. And since they all came with the same essential message, and based on the above verse, rejection of one is rejection of them all, no matter how much you may claim to accept and follow others. It is a very serious matter. We don't need to have been witness at a material time to see if such and such a prophet really existed or what the circumstances were or if there were any signs. We know it to be true, because we have the unchanged word of God. From their characters and the message they brought, it was not difficult for righteous people at their respective times to know that they were true prophets from God. You still have a chance to accept all the Prophets that God sent, and say, yes, I believe in all the honoured messengers God sent, without rejecting or discriminating against any of them, culminating in Muhammad (peace be on him).

My discussions throughout my life with Muslims (a terrible source I admit, least of all because its hearsay, and also because not all Muslims are knowledgable) seems to show that some believe that there is no such requirement, that all monotheistic followers have some chance at salvation, based on their acts and character, rather than their adherence to the Islamic line and theology.
Indeed, I am not the first person to ask this question, and I do remember Muslims themselves asking this question to scholars as well.

I am also aware of some claiming that this a particularlist position, particularly of the more hardline schools of Islam which has gained more prominence over the years.

Again, I do not know, but this is what I've heard. (I'll probably provide more as I come across it)

After the coming of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, Gods guidance is preserved and available and must be followed, and supersedes all other of the scriptures altered by man. However, some may, after receiving the message and understanding it, still decide not to follow it. That then is their prerogative. In a verse very similar to one I quoted in my previous post, Allah says:

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. (3:84-85)

Some may call that hardline, and increasingly the average practising Muslim is being labelled hardline, or particularist, or any other labels. Allah will judge between His servants, and nobody will be wronged even by an amount equal to the dot on a date stone. Our job is to convey the message, to convey the truth.

[gurufabbes]

I'd still respectfully disagree. The way I see it, a universal message from God has to be applicable to all times, all people and all places. If we take Christianity as it is today, it is about God begetting Christ (peace be upon him) and Christ (peace be upon him) being saviour. Did Noah (peace be upon him) preach that? No. Did Abraham (peace be upon him) preach that? No. Does God change his mind about the essential message for humanity? No. As for it being for all mankind, in the Bible, there is a statement attributed to Jesus (peace be upon him) saying, "And I was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) He is also said to have instructed the disciples : "These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)

Correct, but there's Jesus, and there's Christianity. What we now commonly know as Christianity and Christian teaching is a universal message that proposes salvation to all mankind through believing in the sacrifice on the cross, by which all the sins of mankind were forgiven. This was obviously the product of both the later Councils of early organized Christianity and its contact with the pagan traditions of the populations that did join the Christian flock. Ultimately Christianity, the only one that exists today in its various forms, is one salvation uniquely through faith in Jesus as the son of Gd who died for the sins of humanity.
Christian theology equally connects itself with the previous "covenant" and prophets (with Jesus apparently being descended in 2 different geneologies to King David), and makes references to Messianic prophesies that was supposed to fulfill.
It plays the double game of connecting to an ethnocentric religion, while bringing forth a 'new convenant' with is universal.
All stuff you know I'm sure.

Jesus's mission was not as a messenger to all mankind, as Prophet Muhammad peace be on him was, but to the Children of Israel.

According to Islamic teaching then, every nation was sent a prophet (all of which I assume were unsuccesful), before finally sending Mohammed who was for all of mankind.

Jesus however, I assume alongside some others, was sent just to the Children of Israel, not to everyone else. Why exactly?
Why wait so long for a final one, while constantly sending ones that are only meant for one particular people, with a message particular for them? Or was the Jewish people special in this?

More to come...

[gurufabbes]

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment. But they who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not discriminate between any of them - to those He is going to give their rewards. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. (4:150-152

Yes, that's a good source backing it up, but on the question of salvation it could be different. But this particular quote does seem to indicate as you've said.

I'm no expert on Islam, but those that are seem to say that you have different quotes when it comes to non-Muslim monotheists that point in different directions, "contradictions". Based on where the prophet apparently was when it was written down, whether he was in Medina or Mecca.

To reiterate, rejection of any Prophet, is rebellion against God who sent that Prophet, and rebellion against God's guidance and instruction. And since they all came with the same essential message, and based on the above verse, rejection of one is rejection of them all, no matter how much you may claim to accept and follow others. It is a very serious matter. We don't need to have been witness at a material time to see if such and such a prophet really existed or what the circumstances were or if there were any signs. We know it to be true, because we have the unchanged word of God.

Indeed. But that's what the other religions think as well, that they have the unchanged word of Gd. This is what I meant earlier when it comes to conflicting testimonies, and trying to decide which one is true.

I cannot really put an equivalency between the actual rejection that took place during the time of a particular prophet as the people present and that of not believing one millenium later.

From their characters and the message they brought, it was not difficult for righteous people at their respective times to know that they were true prophets from God. You still have a chance to accept all the Prophets that God sent, and say, yes, I believe in all the honoured messengers God sent, without rejecting or discriminating against any of them, culminating in Muhammad (peace be on him).

It's blind faith though.
Also blind faith to assume that at that particular time it was a black and white division of the righteous that recognized them and that none of those that didn't were righteous, particularly the closer one gets to the present day.

Equally, except for the Islamic stipulation that there will be no other prophet following Mohammed, what would make you or not make you believe a certain person in your time and place who claimed prophesy? Would it be the person's popularity, his message, some flukes?

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. (3:84-85)

Another good quote supporting your position and which lead me again to believe that what I've been told by these people was either wishful thinking or they simply didn't know.

[MuslimInshallah]

This perhaps may explain in some ways, my logical discomfort with the insistence that only those who follow the full line, nomatter their good deeds, their good character, their sound faith in the One Gd, still have no hope for salvation.

Greetings gurufabbes and Insaanah,

I have been reading your discussion with pleasure. While you both are coming from slightly different places, this conversation is respectful and informative of both your positions.

This quote needs a little comment, I think. Gurufabbes, you know, there is not a single serious Islamic scholar of whom I'm aware who would state that anyone has no hope of salvation (or I would say: God's Mercy), unless God Himself has Revealed that that particular person has no hope. Frankly, the question of who is destined for Paradise, and who for Hell, is not for us humans to say. We can give the general outlines that God had Given us, and the interpretations we make of these guidelines, but in the end, we do not know. Only God truly Knows.

(smile) But I still invite you to continue opening this door of dialogue with Muslims. Because whatever you understand from these conversations, would you agree that the more we humans struggle and try to understand His Will and get close to Him (and considering these things with others, and examining ourselves through others, is part of this struggle), the better it is for us, both in this life and the Next?

May God, Whose Names are the Most Beautiful, whether Known or Unknown, Bless all those who care enough to teach one another.

[Insaanah]

Jesus however, I assume alongside some others, was sent just to the Children of Israel, not to everyone else. Why exactly?

Allah, the All Knowing, the All Wise, in His Infinite Wisdom, knows best:

And when a sign comes to them, they say, "Never will we believe until we are given like that which was given to the messengers of Allah." Allah is most knowing of where (and with whom) He places His message... (6:124, part)

Why wait so long for a final one, while constantly sending ones that are only meant for one particular people, with a message particular for them? Or was the Jewish people special in this?

Again, Allah knows best:

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and passing over much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path. [5:15-16]

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But now there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent. [5:19]

[MuslimInshallah]

According to Islamic teaching then, every nation was sent a prophet (all of which I assume were unsuccesful), before finally sending Mohammed who was for all of mankind.

Greetings Gurufabbes,

Why do you assume this? (smile) And indeed, it is not a correct assumption. We actually don't know for sure the identity of all of the prophets. But those few of whom we are aware (those specified in the Qur'an and ahadith), at least some prophets had small followings who believed, and one (Yunus, or Jonah (Peace be on him)) was definitely successful in preaching to the whole community of people to whom he was sent.

Qur'an 10:98

Sahih International: Then has there not been a [single] city that believed so its faith benefited it except the people of Jonah? When they believed, We removed from them the punishment of disgrace in worldly life and gave them enjoyment for a time.

Here the word "quariah" is used. It means a town or village (here it is translated as city). It does not say "nations" or "tribes". It may, therefore, be possible, that some non-town-based peoples were receptive to His Guidance, it seems to me (but I am not a scholar).

(smile) If there have been some people who have responded to God's Teachings, how can we say that the prophets were unsuccessful?

May God's Mercy and Blessings be upon all the prophets He, in His Kindness, Sent to us.

[syed_z]

Jesus however, I assume alongside some others, was sent just to the Children of Israel, not to everyone else. Why exactly?
Why wait so long for a final one, while constantly sending ones that are only meant for one particular people, with a message particular for them? Or was the Jewish people special in this?

Thank you for your questions.

The answer to this question has been explained best by Germany Jewish Revert Muhammad Asad (formerly known as Leopold Weiss) in his commentary 'Message of the Quran'. The following Verse of the Quran and his commentary best answers this very important question that comes to the minds of not only non Muslims like yourself but even Muslims:


(05:48) And unto thee [O Prophet] have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein.64 Judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high,65 and do not follow their errant views, forsaking the truth that has come unto thee. Unto every one of you have We appointed a [different] law and way of life.66 And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community: but [He willed it otherwise] in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto, you.67 Vie, then, with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ.68


64 The participle muhaymin is derived from the quadriliteral verb haymana, "he watched [over a thing]" or "controlled [it]", and is used here to describe the Qur'an as the determinant factor in deciding what is genuine and what is false in the earlier scriptures (see Manar VI, 410 ff.).

65 Lit., "judge, then, between them...", etc. This apparently applies not merely to judicial cases but also to opinions as to what is right or wrong in the ethical sense (see note 55 above). As is evident from the mention of the "followers of the Gospel" in the preceding verse, and of the Torah in the earlier passages, the people spoken of here are both the Jews and the Christians.

66 The expression "every one of you" denotes the various communities of which mankind is composed. The term shir'ah (or shari ah) signifies, literally, "the way to a watering-place" (from which men and animals derive the element indispensable to their life), and is used in the Qur'an to denote a system of law necessary for a community's social and spiritual welfare. The term minhaj, on the other hand, denotes an "open road", usually in an abstract sense: that is, "a way of life". The terms shir'ah and minhaj are more restricted in their meaning than the term din, which comprises not merely the laws relating to a particular religion but also the basic, unchanging spiritual truths which, according to the Qur'an, have been preached by every one of God's apostles, while the particular body of laws (shir'ah or shari'ah) promulgated through them, and the way of life (minhaj) recommended by them, varied in accordance with the exigencies of the time and of each community's cultural development. This "unity in diversity" is frequently stressed in the Qur'an (e.g., in the first sentence of 2:148, in 21:92-93, or in 23:52 ff.). Because of the universal applicability and textual incorruptibility of its teachings - as well as of the fact that the Prophet Muhammad is "the seal of all prophets", i.e., the last of them (see 33:40) - the Qur'an represents the culminating point of all revelation and offers the final, perfect way to spiritual fulfilment. This uniqueness of the Qur'anic message does not, however, preclude all adherents of earlier faiths from attaining to God's grace: for - as the Qur'an so often points out - those among them who believe uncompromisingly in the One God and the Day of Judgment (i.e., in individual moral responsibility) and live righteously "need have no fear, and neither shall they grieve".

67 I.e., "in order to test, by means of the various religious laws imposed on you, your willingness to surrender yourselves to God and to obey Him" (Zamakhshari, Razi), "and thus to enable you to grow, spiritually and socially, in accordance with the God-willed law of evolution" (Manar VI, 418 f.).

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...ammad_Asad.pdf

It's blind faith though.
Also blind faith to assume that at that particular time it was a black and white division of the righteous that recognized them and that none of those that didn't were righteous, particularly the closer one gets to the present day.

Equally, except for the Islamic stipulation that there will be no other prophet following Mohammed, what would make you or not make you believe a certain person in your time and place who claimed prophesy? Would it be the person's popularity, his message, some flukes?

For this Quran addresses and condemns those who do not use their reason so Quran does not accept blind faith...

(08:22) Verily the Vilest, the Vilest of all creatures in the sight of God are those deaf, those dumb ones who do not use their Reason.


....to answer it in a very simple way, God has never said in any one of the previous scriptures He sent on earth that He would promise to preserve them, but for Quran He did say that and therefore it is a promise fulfilled (Surah Al Hijr 15:09)...

Since your a Jew I believe, can you confirm if Bible or Torah has been unchanged, or has God promised to protect it?

[gurufabbes]

This quote needs a little comment, I think. Gurufabbes, you know, there is not a single serious Islamic scholar of whom I'm aware who would state that anyone has no hope of salvation (or I would say: God's Mercy), unless God Himself has Revealed that that particular person has no hope. Frankly, the question of who is destined for Paradise, and who for Hell, is not for us humans to say. We can give the general outlines that God had Given us, and the interpretations we make of these guidelines, but in the end, we do not know. Only God truly Knows.

Maybe this is the point by which those I've spoken were referring to.
As is obvious, Muslims have the Koran, Sunna and Hadith to go by to look for the answers to their questions and those are the sources I am interested in hearing from. The Moderator and the other members of the forum did well to quote them.

(smile) But I still invite you to continue opening this door of dialogue with Muslims. Because whatever you understand from these conversations, would you agree that the more we humans struggle and try to understand His Will and get close to Him (and considering these things with others, and examining ourselves through others, is part of this struggle), the better it is for us, both in this life and the Next?

That and self-improvement, yes. We all need more of those and a reminder of our place.

Why do you assume this? (smile) And indeed, it is not a correct assumption. We actually don't know for sure the identity of all of the prophets. But those few of whom we are aware (those specified in the Qur'an and ahadith), at least some prophets had small followings who believed, and one (Yunus, or Jonah (Peace be on him)) was definitely successful in preaching to the whole community of people to whom he was sent.

Well, I assume this because we have few other records of these. And if it only reached a small number of them, when it was supposed to reach more, then the purpose seemingly was not fulfilled.

Jonah was a Jewish prophet, again.

[CalmPassenger]

Make a friendship with Allah... that's the ticket to heaven...Enjoy your journey...