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Frazer
08-23-2014, 07:29 PM
I'm an atheist with an interest in secularist and humanist affairs. I sometimes find it interesting to talk to religious people about these matters but I've rarely ever spoken to a Muslim about them. I'm not sure where to start so I thought I'd openly invite you (a Muslim) to make the first move and ask me anything you'd like regarding me views on things as an atheist.
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Saja
08-23-2014, 08:18 PM
Hello there, you’re not the first atheist I speak with, and I too find it interesting to discuss religion with religious people from other religion or atheists, it’s really fun. Were you religious before you become atheist? If yes what made you disbelieve/leave religion?
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Frazer
08-23-2014, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Saja
Hello there, you’re not the first atheist I speak with, and I too find it interesting to discuss religion with religious people from other religion or atheists, it’s really fun. Were you religious before you become atheist? If yes what made you disbelieve/leave religion?
I did believe in the Christian God for a short while as a child but I didn't give it much thought and I didn't practice the religion. There wasn't anything in particular that made me stop believing, the more I thought about it as I grew up the less I believed it.
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Iceee
08-23-2014, 11:45 PM
Salaam / Hello (Peace be upon you).

1. If your child asked you if there is a God, what would you say?

2. Were you raised in a religious home where both your parents took you to Church on a regular basis? What is your families stance on religion?

3. If you were to die today and was standing right in front of Allah, what would you say?
(The only thing I know atheists can say is, "You know, I didn't believe in you but I was a nice person and donated and helped.... etc.)

4. What is your opinion on Islam?
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Muhaba
08-24-2014, 07:49 AM
Have you studied human anatomy? Do you really think such a complex system could come into being by itself?
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Frazer
08-24-2014, 10:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Salaam / Hello (Peace be upon you).

1. If your child asked you if there is a God, what would you say?

2. Were you raised in a religious home where both your parents took you to Church on a regular basis? What is your families stance on religion?

3. If you were to die today and was standing right in front of Allah, what would you say?
(The only thing I know atheists can say is, "You know, I didn't believe in you but I was a nice person and donated and helped.... etc.)

4. What is your opinion on Islam?
1. I wouldn't just say no I would explain why I don't believe and discuss there thoughts on it.

2. I wasn't raised religiously but I was taught about religion at school and we sung Christian songs and did celebrated Christian holidays etc. no one in my family is particularly religious although some believe in an afterlife and spirits. For a long time I held similar spiritual beliefs in things such as an afterlife, spirits and the paranormal. I don't believe in any of these things any more either.

3. I think I'd be skeptical about what I was experiencing, I would wonder whether it was a dream or some sort of hallucination. If Allah could explain everything to me and fully convince me then I still don't think I would regret never believing in him because nothing up until that point had convinced me. I'm sure I would have many questions, I'd probably start with how everything began and how Allah himself came into existence.

4. I don't like Islam or any other religion on the basis that I'm convinced they are false and are ultimately holding people back. I'm not hostile towards religion or religious people, I try to be understanding and I don't force my views on any one. I believe there are good religious people but I think they could be just as good if not better without it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dreamin
Have you studied human anatomy? Do you really think such a complex system could come into being by itself?
I studied human anatomy and biology at school and I have watched and read things in my own time too. The complex human body didn't just happen by chance or appear from nothing, life started at a much simpler level, it grew in complexity and diversity over time as it adapts to its surrounding through natural selection. I have some links to more info on evolution if you are interested.
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Muhammad Waqqas
08-24-2014, 11:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Frazer
I studied human anatomy and biology at school and I have watched and read things in my own time too. The complex human body didn't just happen by chance or appear from nothing, life started at a much simpler level, it grew in complexity and diversity over time as it adapts to its surrounding through natural selection. I have some links to more info on evolution if you are interested.
Evolution isn't the only problem here. I have much simpler questions. How does a chicken get formed inside of an egg? How do the white and the yolk work together form a chicken.. and in just 21 days the same white and the yolk of an egg end up into blood, veins, bones, fur, respiratory system, reproductive system, senses (fear, anger, love, hate), how are two cameras developed (eyes), the colors of chickens, and best of all, the central processing unit (brain).
The respiratory system has such small tiny little sacs that transfer oxygen into blood (cell by cell).. and how does the product that comes out of the same white and yolk know that it has to make another machine that produces more eggs which have the same white and yolk that allows production of more units.

The question here is not that how did the hen or egg evolve to produce such a mechanism, the question is, do you think human beings with all the technology they have today, can create a fly? (let alone a chicken). Are you suggesting that all the technology cannot replicate the effect of a 'chance'. And that's not just one of the products of 'chance' there are millions.

How do the white and the yolk of an egg make such a complicated (allow me to call it) robot?
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jkekeis
08-24-2014, 11:49 AM
Mine is a simple question, have you ever read, in full, the Torah, Bible or Qur'an?
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Frazer
08-24-2014, 12:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by jkekeis
Mine is a simple question, have you ever read, in full, the Torah, Bible or Qur'an?
In full, no but I don't reject the idea of a God based on what I know about religion, I don't believe the concept of God regardless of religion.
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Frazer
08-24-2014, 12:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad Waqqas
Evolution isn't the only problem here. I have much simpler questions. How does a chicken get formed inside of an egg? How do the white and the yolk work together form a chicken.. and in just 21 days the same white and the yolk of an egg end up into blood, veins, bones, fur, respiratory system, reproductive system, senses (fear, anger, love, hate), how are two cameras developed (eyes), the colors of chickens, and best of all, the central processing unit (brain).
The respiratory system has such small tiny little sacs that transfer oxygen into blood (cell by cell).. and how does the product that comes out of the same white and yolk know that it has to make another machine that produces more eggs which have the same white and yolk that allows production of more units.

The question here is not that how did the hen or egg evolve to produce such a mechanism, the question is, do you think human beings with all the technology they have today, can create a fly? (let alone a chicken). Are you suggesting that all the technology cannot replicate the effect of a 'chance'. And that's not just one of the products of 'chance' there are millions.

How do the white and the yolk of an egg make such a complicated (allow me to call it) robot?
We have technology to observe and explain these things but no we cannot yet recreate it ourselves or create a fly.
I'm not sure what you mean by technology replicating 'chance', could you explain that a little more please?
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greenhill
08-24-2014, 12:39 PM
Welcome to the forum.

I see the members have gotten straight to questions :D

Do read historical posts and ask anything you want.

Peace
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Frazer
08-24-2014, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad Waqqas
How do the white and the yolk of an egg make such a complicated (allow me to call it) robot?
The egg white and yolk don't create the bird alone, the egg is fertilised in the bird by the male birds semen. Contents of the egg act as nourishment for growing the bird rather than through an umbilical chord like in a human or other mammal.
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Muhammad Waqqas
08-27-2014, 07:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill
Welcome to the forum.

I see the members have gotten straight to questions :D

Do read historical posts and ask anything you want.

Peace
Yes, this is because the topic is about 'asking' so anything other than that should be off topic! :D
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Muhammad Waqqas
08-27-2014, 07:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Frazer
The egg white and yolk don't create the bird alone, the egg is fertilised in the bird by the male birds semen. Contents of the egg act as nourishment for growing the bird rather than through an umbilical chord like in a human or other mammal.
Well,that makes it even more complex, doesn't it?

It is like someone asks you: "How does the letter "A" appear on the screen when we press it on the keyboard?" and someone replies: "Well, the keyboard is connected with the USB port, that's why.."

Does it really explain it?!? Of course not.
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Muhammad Waqqas
08-27-2014, 08:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Frazer
We have technology to observe and explain these things but no we cannot yet recreate it ourselves or create a fly.
I'm not sure what you mean by technology replicating 'chance', could you explain that a little more please?
You see I'm not going to say: "Hey look, I have PROOF! YOU MUST NOW START BELIEVING In GOD!!" -- that's just.. immature..
What I meant by writing all of these things above was something like: "let me tell you what I have come to appreciate among the hundreds of thousands of signs of God that surround us." So that's purely a educational discussion, not an argument.

I basically come from a background with computer programming which has really helped me understanding how miraculous everything is. What I meat by 'replicating 'chance'' was that something was created (as suggested by atheists) without an intelligent designer (the earth, the skies, the living things in it etc.) and today with all the intelligence we have cannot repeat the affect created without intelligence. You see what I am saying?

You see, I personally believe every single piece of sand itself is enough for a person with an average amount of common sense to realize who Allah is. Eggs and animals are way way too much complex for someone to remain blind.

And this is why I was really interested when I read the topic "Ask an atheist anything" because I have these questions in my mind, how do Atheists convince themselves that there is no god? its a difficult thing.
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daveyats
08-27-2014, 10:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Frazer
I studied human anatomy and biology at school and I have watched and read things in my own time too. The complex human body didn't just happen by chance or appear from nothing, life started at a much simpler level, it grew in complexity and diversity over time as it adapts to its surrounding through natural selection. I have some links to more info on evolution if you are interested.
Interesting thread you started my friend! I would like to ask -

1. For you, does life ultimately have any objective meaning if it is true that everything started with a big bang for no reason and came together by random chance?

2. If everything exist without purpose, meaning or reason, why are we even discussing or mentioning it. Those shouldn't even exist...wonder if you have any opinion on this.
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InToTheRain
08-27-2014, 02:24 PM
How is it that we can dream of what will happen in future; how do you explain this "de javu"? It is when the senses and concious are dormant yet we see and feel things we have never seen or imagined. From an Islamic perspective it is the times the "soul" takes flight. What are your thoughts on the soul?


Mohammad :saws: informed us :
True dreams are one of the forty-six parts of Prophethood.” (al-Bukhaari, 6472;

Dreams marked the onset of Revelation (al-Bukhaari, 3; Muslim, 231).

The truthfulness of the dream is related to the sincerity of the dreamer. Those who have the most truthful dreams are those who are the most truthful in speech. (Muslim, 4200)

Dreams are of three types: rahmaani (those that come from Allaah), nafsaani (psychological, they come from within a person) and shaytaani (those that come from the Shaytaan). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Dreams are of three types: a dream from Allaah, a dream which causes distress and which comes from the Shaytaan, and a dream which comes from what a person thinks about when he is awake, and he sees it when he is asleep.” (al-Bukhaari, 6499; Muslim, 4200)

Towards the end of time, hardly any dreams will be untrue. The Prophet :saws: said: “That will be because the Prophethood and its effects will be so far away in time, so the believers will be given some compensation in the form of dreams which will bring them some good news or will help them to be patient and steadfast in their faith.” (al-Bukhaari, 6499; Muslim, 4200)

goodnight and thank you for listening (reading) :)
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Samiun
08-27-2014, 02:46 PM
Is it true that Atheists think something like 'Wars occur because of religion', 'Religion is evil' and 'Religion is backwards'?

Also if you claim that God doesn't exist, where would you go when you die? Are you not afraid that someday you'll be awaken again or that you're questioned by something out of the ordinary in the grave?
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Frazer
08-29-2014, 05:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad Waqqas
Well,that makes it even more complex, doesn't it?

It is like someone asks you: "How does the letter "A" appear on the screen when we press it on the keyboard?" and someone replies: "Well, the keyboard is connected with the USB port, that's why.."

Does it really explain it?!? Of course not.
It doesn't fully explain it but it's not incorrect either. It is very complex and I'd be lying if I said I or anyone else could explain everything about it.
We are only human, there are things we are yet to know or may never know.
Can you explain on a cellular and molecular level how your God creates such creatures? I very much doubt it but you still believe he does right, so is this not double standards?
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad Waqqas
You see I'm not going to say: "Hey look, I have PROOF! YOU MUST NOW START BELIEVING In GOD!!" -- that's just.. immature..
What I meant by writing all of these things above was something like: "let me tell you what I have come to appreciate among the hundreds of thousands of signs of God that surround us." So that's purely a educational discussion, not an argument.

I basically come from a background with computer programming which has really helped me understanding how miraculous everything is. What I meat by 'replicating 'chance'' was that something was created (as suggested by atheists) without an intelligent designer (the earth, the skies, the living things in it etc.) and today with all the intelligence we have cannot repeat the affect created without intelligence. You see what I am saying?

You see, I personally believe every single piece of sand itself is enough for a person with an average amount of common sense to realize who Allah is. Eggs and animals are way way too much complex for someone to remain blind.

And this is why I was really interested when I read the topic "Ask an atheist anything" because I have these questions in my mind, how do Atheists convince themselves that there is no god? its a difficult thing.
Having the intelligence to understand how something works doesn't mean we therefore have the ability to replicate it, these are two different things.
We have limits to our abilities both mentally and physically even with the aid of technology.
We cannot simply turn around and say therefore that a God must have done it with some sort of magical ability and infinite knowledge because that in itself is an even bigger mystery than the one you are trying to answer it with.
This is called the 'God of Gaps' argument and it's a logic fallacy, I can give you more info on this if you wish or you could Google it.
format_quote Originally Posted by daveyats
Interesting thread you started my friend! I would like to ask -

1. For you, does life ultimately have any objective meaning if it is true that everything started with a big bang for no reason and came together by random chance?

2. If everything exist without purpose, meaning or reason, why are we even discussing or mentioning it. Those shouldn't even exist...wonder if you have any opinion on this.
I think my ambitions, relationships and experiences etc. give my life meaning, my life is what I make of it.
Not every atheist believes in the big bang, being an atheist simply means you don't believe in God, thats it. Sure, many do believe in the big bang but for me personally I don't believe this explains everything, the big bang isn't a final explanation of how the universe began it is simply the best scientific explanation we have so far. The Big Bang theory doesn't state that everything in its complex present form came about by random chance, as if a storm in junkyard could randomly assemble a working car, its more to do with the chaotic nature of how things work and happen, chains of events which occur naturally if given the chance. For example, an acorn and an oak tree are not the same thing, the oak tree is much more complex, but with the right natural conditions alone one thing becomes another.
format_quote Originally Posted by InToTheRain
How is it that we can dream of what will happen in future; how do you explain this "de javu"? It is when the senses and concious are dormant yet we see and feel things we have never seen or imagined. From an Islamic perspective it is the times the "soul" takes flight. What are your thoughts on the soul?


Mohammad :saws: informed us :
True dreams are one of the forty-six parts of Prophethood.” (al-Bukhaari, 6472;

Dreams marked the onset of Revelation (al-Bukhaari, 3; Muslim, 231).

The truthfulness of the dream is related to the sincerity of the dreamer. Those who have the most truthful dreams are those who are the most truthful in speech. (Muslim, 4200)

Dreams are of three types: rahmaani (those that come from Allaah), nafsaani (psychological, they come from within a person) and shaytaani (those that come from the Shaytaan). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Dreams are of three types: a dream from Allaah, a dream which causes distress and which comes from the Shaytaan, and a dream which comes from what a person thinks about when he is awake, and he sees it when he is asleep.” (al-Bukhaari, 6499; Muslim, 4200)

Towards the end of time, hardly any dreams will be untrue. The Prophet :saws: said: “That will be because the Prophethood and its effects will be so far away in time, so the believers will be given some compensation in the form of dreams which will bring them some good news or will help them to be patient and steadfast in their faith.” (al-Bukhaari, 6499; Muslim, 4200)

goodnight and thank you for listening (reading) :)
I don't believe in psychic ability, some atheists do and I did too a few years ago but the more I thought about it the more I was convinced that most (if not all) claims had more a rational explanation such as subliminal suggestion, a large coincidence and some are simply not true. Its not really that difficult to find connections between our dreams and our real life when you are wilfully trying to make those connections and then ignore all the things which don't happen.
format_quote Originally Posted by Samiun
Is it true that Atheists think something like 'Wars occur because of religion', 'Religion is evil' and 'Religion is backwards'?

Also if you claim that God doesn't exist, where would you go when you die? Are you not afraid that someday you'll be awaken again or that you're questioned by something out of the ordinary in the grave?
An Atheist by definition is someone who doesn't believe in God, thats all it means, other than that our beliefs vary alot, I strongly object to some atheists views yet respect others and the same goes for religious people.

Most wars start when two or more sides have a conflict of interests or have a difference in opinion over something, religion usually play a large part in this but there are other factor too such as politics, culture and business etc. I wouldn't say religion is the cause of all war or violence but I think most people would agree that it has played a large part throughout history and still today.

I dislike religion in the same sense I dislike anyone believing anything that isn't true, I want people to succeed and progress. I don't dislike people just because they are religious but if their beliefs and actions have an affect on how I want to live my life then I have a problem with that.

I don't believe in an afterlife, I believe we simply stop existing just as we didn't exist before we were born. Thats not necersarily what I want to happen but from logical rational thought thats what I conclude, I see no evidence to suggest otherwise, other than wishy washy claims, hope and faith.
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ardianto
08-30-2014, 04:22 AM
Hello Frazer,

I know, if I tell you to worship God, you will not listen to me. But if you fell in love to a religious girl, and she told you that you should worship God if you want to be with her, would you worship God although just pretend?. Or you prefer to lose her because you could not compromising your Atheism belief with worship God although just pretend?.

I ask this question because I've ever met an Atheist guy who told me that if he could meet a girl who made him fell in love, he would worship God if this girl asked him to do it.
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Frazer
08-30-2014, 09:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Hello Frazer,

I know, if I tell you to worship God, you will not listen to me. But if you fell in love to a religious girl, and she told you that you should worship God if you want to be with her, would you worship God although just pretend?. Or you prefer to lose her because you could not compromising your Atheism belief with worship God although just pretend?.

I ask this question because I've ever met an Atheist guy who told me that if he could meet a girl who made him fell in love, he would worship God if this girl asked him to do it.
If a woman could not tolerate my atheism then I very much doubt I would fall in love with her in the first place but even if I did I would not be able to spend the rest of my life pretending to be religious, so no.

I know this does happen and I find it very strange because surely the woman would realise the man is pretending, I don't know if it's even possible to force someone to believe something, they have to be convinced somehow.
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Futuwwa
08-30-2014, 04:37 PM
Do you ever get annoyed by the intellectual arrogance of other atheists?
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public
08-30-2014, 04:48 PM
As-salam ala man ittaba al huda... None disputes concerning the signs of Allah except those who disbelieve, so do not be deceived by their strutting in the land.(quran:40:4)
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Frazer
08-30-2014, 05:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Do you ever get annoyed by the intellectual arrogance of other atheists?
Yes sometimes people can have a bad attitude even if they are correct.

format_quote Originally Posted by public
As-salam ala man ittaba al huda... None disputes concerning the signs of Allah except those who disbelieve, so do not be deceived by their strutting in the land.(quran:40:4)
I don't understand why you have posted that to me.
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Muhaba
08-30-2014, 08:12 PM
Tell us about your journey to atheism. Were you always atheist or did you become one later in life and what made you choose atheism.

Have you studied other religions? Have you read the Quran? Do you want to?

Do you ever wonder if there is God? that is, Do you ever ask yourself 'Does God exist?'
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jalal lee
08-30-2014, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Frazer
Yes sometimes people can have a bad attitude even if they are correct.




I don't understand why you have posted that to me.
I think you are being very dishonest.
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Frazer
08-30-2014, 09:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dreamin
Tell us about your journey to atheism. Were you always atheist or did you become one later in life and what made you choose atheism.

Have you studied other religions? Have you read the Quran? Do you want to?

Do you ever wonder if there is God? that is, Do you ever ask yourself 'Does God exist?'
I was mostly on the fence when I was young, I think I had a vague belief in God at one point. In my teenage years I had spiritual beliefs, I believed in the soul, an afterlife and powerful spirits but not a God. I gained an interest in religious and political debate and then towards philosophy, logic, critical thinking and rationality etc. I've have come to the conclusion that there is insufficient evidence or reason to believe in God. I haven't read every major religious text in full but I have read some. However my disbelief in God is not solely down to my knowledge of religion, I don't believe in God on a theistic level so religion isn't a major factor for me. I do how ever have a strong interest in religious, secular and humanist topics.
format_quote Originally Posted by jalal lee
I think you are being very dishonest.
Why do you think that?
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Iceee
08-30-2014, 09:38 PM
Hello / Peace Be Upon You.

Thank you for answering my previous questions. Here are a few more.

1. What do you want to happen to your body after you pass away? Donate your organs? Have a funeral at a church? Cremate your body?

2. A family friend once had everything going for him; A good job, lots of money, a nice home, and a beautiful wife. He didn't believe in God until the day that his son was born with Cancer
(I forgot the name of it, but it was a really rare kind). So my question is to you; who do you turn to when something terrible strikes you or the people closest to you? (ex. your SO getting really sick or your child committing suicide or even a tornado striking your home and destroying everything you have).
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Frazer
08-30-2014, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Hello / Peace Be Upon You.

Thank you for answering my previous questions. Here are a few more.

1. What do you want to happen to your body after you pass away? Donate your organs? Have a funeral at a church? Cremate your body?

2. A family friend once had everything going for him; A good job, lots of money, a nice home, and a beautiful wife. He didn't believe in God until the day that his son was born with Cancer
(I forgot the name of it, but it was a really rare kind). So my question is to you; who do you turn to when something terrible strikes you or the people closest to you? (ex. your SO getting really sick or your child committing suicide or even a tornado striking your home and destroying everything you have).
1. I've never given organ donation much thought but I do like the idea. I wouldn't want a religious service but I don't care too much if it is a church because I don't know anywhere which offers this service which is not a religiously affiliated building of some sort. I want to be cremated, I don't see the point in my body being preserved under the ground in a box. It less practical and expensive for my relatives also.

2. My beliefs by no means rule out terrible things happening so I don't see how anything like this would cause we to believe a higher power was responsible. The only reason I can see somebody becoming a believer after experiencing something so horrific is if psychologically they needed a crutch of sort, some desperate search for a happier ending to it all.
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ardianto
08-31-2014, 03:34 AM
One day I was in problem and didn't know how to solve. Then I pray, wish God help me. Few days later suddenly I got a feeling that I should go to a place. I went to that place and met someone who coincidentally visited that place too. I talked with him, and immediately I got an idea to solve my problem. Then my problem solved. Note: I didn't tell him that I was in problem.

I believe my feeling that I should go to that place was the answer from God who had arranged a meeting with someone.

Okay Frazer. Have you ever had experience when you were in problem, suddenly you got a feeling that you should do something, and then it solve your problem?. If you ever had experience like this, what you think about the feeling that 'told' you what you should do?.

Edit: I mean, not the feeling that tell you how to solve your problem, but feeling like you should go to a place and then you see something that gives you an idea.
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Pygoscelis
08-31-2014, 07:06 AM
Don't mean to leap in on Frazer's thread, but just feel I have to mention, that Frazer's responses are his responses alone, and Atheism is not like religions in that it has no common dogma. Frazer's responses to many of your questions may be the polar opposite of mine or those of other atheists.

We do have tendencies to reach some similar conclusions in absence of belief in Gods, but we don't have any common creed to share.

1. Atheism in itself is no more than a lack of belief in God(s).

2. Atheism is no more a religion than bald is a hairstyle or off is a TV show.

3. Atheists can be complete materialists, or they can be very spiritual, believe in reincarnation and spirits, etc.

4. Atheists can reject or endorse Evolution and other scientific theories.

5. Not all atheists are humanists. Not all atheists are anti-religious.
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Muhammad Waqqas
08-31-2014, 07:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Frazer
It doesn't fully explain it but it's not incorrect either. It is very complex and I'd be lying if I said I or anyone else could explain everything about it.
We are only human, there are things we are yet to know or may never know.
Can you explain on a cellular and molecular level how your God creates such creatures? I very much doubt it but you still believe he does right, so is this not double standards?

Having the intelligence to understand how something works doesn't mean we therefore have the ability to replicate it, these are two different things.
We have limits to our abilities both mentally and physically even with the aid of technology.
We cannot simply turn around and say therefore that a God must have done it with some sort of magical ability and infinite knowledge because that in itself is an even bigger mystery than the one you are trying to answer it with.
This is called the 'God of Gaps' argument and it's a logic fallacy, I can give you more info on this if you wish or you could Google it.
Right, so in short, you are suggesting that we cannot explain how things around us were created.

And in reality this is the truth. Science has no explanation today as to how the first cell could have formed together, and which was created first: DNA or Protein? The code for each protein is contained in the DNA/RNA system. However, proteins are required in order to manufacture DNA. So which came first: proteins or DNA? The ONLY explanation is that they were created together.

For evolutionists, the chicken or egg dilemma goes even deeper. (Request Rejected)

Some people confuse RNA with DNA saying first RNA was created and DNA is a better form of RNA. But is a deception. RNA is formed from DNA by a process called transcription. This uses enzymes like RNA polymerases. RNA is central to protein synthesis.

I'm sorry for going into technicalities because this is really not the place to write these stuff, my personal approach is generally based on 'common-sense' because I know finding the way to God is (and technically should be) possible for everyone alive on the earth and I don't think everyone will have access to such information in their life span of 50 to 60 years.

You see, saying that who God is and how endless his knowledge and wisdom is, is another mystery -- is very irrelevant. Even the smallest cell is far much more complex than all the computers and all the technology we have today.

Please consider this:
IF we know, that things cannot have come from nothingness (because they are way too complex for that) then we do know someone is responsible for creating these. Now if the one responsible for these is someone who is out of our comprehension, is entirely a different topic, this doesn't negate Him from being the maker of these things.. I mean we do know He is there because we see the things He created. Are you suggesting that we don't believe in God only because we cannot comprehend who He is?

I don't think we have to be philosophical about it. Do you think the Stonehenge was there because.. nobody made it? (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2007_07_30.jpg) or because of climatic changes it was produced (http://images.nationalgeographic.com...72_600x450.jpg )?

This is really amazing, because no one ever argues that. They say someone has made it. How complex is it the thing that we are talking about? ZERO. No complexity at all. But common-sense would make you realize no someone has made it. Now we don't know did it.. does that make you think that since we don't know who did it, we'll reject its creation all together?

Take it a step further, if someone tells you that the Eiffel tower was there because there was a huge reserve of iron at that place and after millions of years, the Eiffel tower (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...r_at_Night.jpg) was created because of the climatic and environmental changes.

Any sane person would call it.. absurd. Of course its absurd.

I don't know who made the Eiffel tower and how they made it.. I don't plan on Googling it, does that direct me to thinking "Oh well, lets just call it evolution." No body made it because I don't know that person, or cannot comprehend how they did it.

The DNA (created naturally) is billions of times more complex than any of the things man has ever created. But they are all still convinced so firmly that it has evolved.

Please reflect on the excerpt from the book:
It is hard to fathom, but the amount of information in human DNA is roughly equivalent to 12 sets of The Encyclopaedia Britannica— an incredible 384 volumes" worth of detailed information that would fill 48 feet of library shelves!
Yet in their actual size—which is only two millionths of a millimeter thick—a teaspoon of DNA, according to molecular biologist Michael Denton, could contain all the information needed to build the proteins for all the species of organisms that have ever lived on the earth, and "there would still be enough room left for all the information in every book ever written" ( Evolution: A Theory in Crisis , 1996, p. 334).


And this is why I say that I am really amazed at people who find it difficult to understand that Allah is the one who created everything that's in the heavens and the earth and everything between these.
Reply

Muhammad Waqqas
08-31-2014, 08:21 AM
Posted my reply twice by mistake.
Reply

Frazer
08-31-2014, 11:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
One day I was in problem and didn't know how to solve. Then I pray, wish God help me. Few days later suddenly I got a feeling that I should go to a place. I went to that place and met someone who coincidentally visited that place too. I talked with him, and immediately I got an idea to solve my problem. Then my problem solved. Note: I didn't tell him that I was in problem.

I believe my feeling that I should go to that place was the answer from God who had arranged a meeting with someone.

Okay Frazer. Have you ever had experience when you were in problem, suddenly you got a feeling that you should do something, and then it solve your problem?. If you ever had experience like this, what you think about the feeling that 'told' you what you should do?.

Edit: I mean, not the feeling that tell you how to solve your problem, but feeling like you should go to a place and then you see something that gives you an idea.
I've not been compelled to go something like that no but I have had strange urges or feelings about things which have paid off and I was not fully aware where it came from, I would say the most rational explanation would be that its down to the subconscious. I can understand why someone might mistake this for a seperate consciousness but I don't see how its evidence for God. A personal experience which cannot be demonstrated to others cannot serve as evidence. Its also difficult for us to have debates based on personal experiences.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Don't mean to leap in on Frazer's thread, but just feel I have to mention, that Frazer's responses are his responses alone, and Atheism is not like religions in that it has no common dogma. Frazer's responses to many of your questions may be the polar opposite of mine or those of other atheists.

We do have tendencies to reach some similar conclusions in absence of belief in Gods, but we don't have any common creed to share.

1. Atheism in itself is no more than a lack of belief in God(s).

2. Atheism is no more a religion than bald is a hairstyle or off is a TV show.

3. Atheists can be complete materialists, or they can be very spiritual, believe in reincarnation and spirits, etc.

4. Atheists can reject or endorse Evolution and other scientific theories.

5. Not all atheists are humanists. Not all atheists are anti-religious.
True, worth pointing out, thanks.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad Waqqas
Right, so in short, you are suggesting that we cannot explain how things around us were created.

And in reality this is the truth. Science has no explanation today as to how the first cell could have formed together, and which was created first: DNA or Protein? The code for each protein is contained in the DNA/RNA system. However, proteins are required in order to manufacture DNA. So which came first: proteins or DNA? The ONLY explanation is that they were created together.

For evolutionists, the chicken or egg dilemma goes even deeper. (Request Rejected)

Some people confuse RNA with DNA saying first RNA was created and DNA is a better form of RNA. But is a deception. RNA is formed from DNA by a process called transcription. This uses enzymes like RNA polymerases. RNA is central to protein synthesis.

I'm sorry for going into technicalities because this is really not the place to write these stuff, my personal approach is generally based on 'common-sense' because I know finding the way to God is (and technically should be) possible for everyone alive on the earth and I don't think everyone will have access to such information in their life span of 50 to 60 years.

You see, saying that who God is and how endless his knowledge and wisdom is, is another mystery -- is very irrelevant. Even the smallest cell is far much more complex than all the computers and all the technology we have today.

Please consider this:
IF we know, that things cannot have come from nothingness (because they are way too complex for that) then we do know someone is responsible for creating these. Now if the one responsible for these is someone who is out of our comprehension, is entirely a different topic, this doesn't negate Him from being the maker of these things.. I mean we do know He is there because we see the things He created. Are you suggesting that we don't believe in God only because we cannot comprehend who He is?

I don't think we have to be philosophical about it. Do you think the Stonehenge was there because.. nobody made it? () or because of climatic changes it was produced ()?

This is really amazing, because no one ever argues that. They say someone has made it. How complex is it the thing that we are talking about? ZERO. No complexity at all. But common-sense would make you realize no someone has made it. Now we don't know did it.. does that make you think that since we don't know who did it, we'll reject its creation all together?

Take it a step further, if someone tells you that the Eiffel tower was there because there was a huge reserve of iron at that place and after millions of years, the Eiffel tower () was created because of the climatic and environmental changes.

Any sane person would call it.. absurd. Of course its absurd.

I don't know who made the Eiffel tower and how they made it.. I don't plan on Googling it, does that direct me to thinking "Oh well, lets just call it evolution." No body made it because I don't know that person, or cannot comprehend how they did it.

The DNA (created naturally) is billions of times more complex than any of the things man has ever created. But they are all still convinced so firmly that it has evolved.

Please reflect on the excerpt from the book:
It is hard to fathom, but the amount of information in human DNA is roughly equivalent to 12 sets of The Encyclopaedia Britannica— an incredible 384 volumes" worth of detailed information that would fill 48 feet of library shelves!
Yet in their actual size—which is only two millionths of a millimeter thick—a teaspoon of DNA, according to molecular biologist Michael Denton, could contain all the information needed to build the proteins for all the species of organisms that have ever lived on the earth, and "there would still be enough room left for all the information in every book ever written" ( Evolution: A Theory in Crisis , 1996, p. 334).


And this is why I say that I am really amazed at people who find it difficult to understand that Allah is the one who created everything that's in the heavens and the earth and everything between these.
Yes in short I believe there is insufficient evidence for us to say exactly how life and the universe began.
The chicken and egg problem has actually been explained. I think what you are getting at is more of a first cause type argument.
If we demand an explanation on how life began they we must demand an equally detailed explanation of how God came to be. It's not enough to say he has the magical powers to do this. This all needs explaining before it can serve as an explanation itself.
The fact we cannot fully explain the origin of life does not mean evolution is therefore flawed but it does have its gaps.
Reply

Muhammad Waqqas
08-31-2014, 12:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Frazer
Yes in short I believe there is insufficient evidence for us to say exactly how life and the universe began.
The chicken and egg problem has actually been explained. I think what you are getting at is more of a first cause type argument.
If we demand an explanation on how life began they we must demand an equally detailed explanation of how God came to be. It's not enough to say he has the magical powers to do this. This all needs explaining before it can serve as an explanation itself.
The fact we cannot fully explain the origin of life does not mean evolution is therefore flawed but it does have its gaps.
Right, so we are together this far that we don't know how everything came into existence. The only point where we differ is you and I disagree that God did it.

I already talked about this in the post you quoted. If you come back from a vacation and see that your house is completely renovated. Walls are colored, new furniture, new TV everything is looking beautiful.

You know that the first question that will rise in your mind will be: "Who did it?"

Are you suggesting that just because you don't know any one who would do it, you never did it for anyone, why would anyone spend so much money.. and since we don't have answers to these questions, we'll come to the conclusion that it happened all by itself?

My argument is this: If we don't know who did it and how someone did something, HOW DOES THAT PREVENT YOU to BELIEVE that he did it?? Its completely unrelated.

If you cannot understand how God did all of these things.. IT in no possible rational way cause you to stop believing everything He did?

Do you understand my question?
Reply

Frazer
08-31-2014, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad Waqqas
Right, so we are together this far that we don't know how everything came into existence. The only point where we differ is you and I disagree that God did it.

I already talked about this in the post you quoted. If you come back from a vacation and see that your house is completely renovated. Walls are colored, new furniture, new TV everything is looking beautiful.

You know that the first question that will rise in your mind will be: "Who did it?"

Are you suggesting that just because you don't know any one who would do it, you never did it for anyone, why would anyone spend so much money.. and since we don't have answers to these questions, we'll come to the conclusion that it happened all by itself?

My argument is this: If we don't know who did it and how someone did something, HOW DOES THAT PREVENT YOU to BELIEVE that he did it?? Its completely unrelated.

If you cannot understand how God did all of these things.. IT in no possible rational way cause you to stop believing everything He did?

Do you understand my question?
I understand your question.

Using your example we know that homes can be and are renovated by people, we know this is possible and yet no of nothing else which can do this.
This doesn't completely rule out that something else could have done it but it leaves us with the only rational explanation that a person/people have done this for whatever reason it may be. If you were to suggest a God did it you would first have to explain God before offering it as an explanation to this. This often causes a circular argument whereby the believer explains the mystery using God and at the same time use God to explain the mystery.

Something such as life or a planet is different because we have no evidence of a human or any other intelligence being capable of creating such a thing. For this reason we cannot compare the creation of a new home to the creation of life.
Reply

ardianto
08-31-2014, 05:55 PM
After I read again few last posts which I've written for a Christian and for you, I begin to realize that I have double standard. I could tolerate Christianity, but I urged you to believe in God. But actually, this is an inevitable attitude of religious person that when talk about God with an Atheist. It's because religious people have an instinct to tell about God to those who do not believe.

Okay, Frazer, I want to know your view about religious tolerance. Have you ever questioning why there are religious people who can coexist, can tolerate each other belief, but cannot tolerate Atheism as a belief too?.
@Pygoscelis . You can answer this question too.

:)
Reply

Frazer
08-31-2014, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
After I read again few last posts which I've written for a Christian and for you, I begin to realize that I have double standard. I could tolerate Christianity, but I urged you to believe in God. But actually, this is an inevitable attitude of religious person that when talk about God with an Atheist. It's because religious people have an instinct to tell about God to those who do not believe.

Okay, Frazer, I want to know your view about religious tolerance. Have you ever questioning why there are religious people who can coexist, can tolerate each other belief, but cannot tolerate Atheism as a belief too?.
@Pygoscelis. You can answer this question too.

:)
Some religious people are just as intolerant towards people of the same religion too though, sunnis/shiites, catholics/protestants etc.
Some religious people are very tolerant, some aren't and the same goes for atheists too.
Reply

Muhaba
08-31-2014, 08:33 PM
Here listen to this
Reply

Scimitar
09-01-2014, 02:23 AM
I really hate appeals to emotions... I get the feeling bro Fraser does too.

Scimi
Reply

Pygoscelis
09-01-2014, 04:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
After I read again few last posts which I've written for a Christian and for you, I begin to realize that I have double standard. I could tolerate Christianity, but I urged you to believe in God. But actually, this is an inevitable attitude of religious person that when talk about God with an Atheist. It's because religious people have an instinct to tell about God to those who do not believe.

Okay, Frazer, I want to know your view about religious tolerance. Have you ever questioning why there are religious people who can coexist, can tolerate each other belief, but cannot tolerate Atheism as a belief too?.
@Pygoscelis . You can answer this question too.

:)
I agree with Frazer that there are people in ALL groups who are intolerant of outsiders. But your question seems to be why are theists especially intolerant of atheists as opposed to people of other (competing religions). I think if that is so, it would be because at least people of other religions believe God(s) exist, even if they disagree with you on who or what that means. Atheists may be especially alien and threatening.

I also think it may be related to the trend amongst many theists to disbelieve in disbelievers. I have met many who will tell me flat out that I do believe, that all atheists do believe, and that we reject God, not simply disbelieve in god. This tendency to accuse us of "rejecting" what we don't believe to exist always fascinated me.

Consider this if you are open to something from an Atheist viewpoint

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU
Reply

ardianto
09-01-2014, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I agree with Frazer that there are people in ALL groups who are intolerant of outsiders. But your question seems to be why are theists especially intolerant of atheists as opposed to people of other (competing religions). I think if that is so, it would be because at least people of other religions believe God(s) exist, even if they disagree with you on who or what that means. Atheists may be especially alien and threatening.

I also think it may be related to the trend amongst many theists to disbelieve in disbelievers. I have met many who will tell me flat out that I do believe, that all atheists do believe, and that we reject God, not simply disbelieve in god. This tendency to accuse us of "rejecting" what we don't believe to exist always fascinated me.

Consider this if you are open to something from an Atheist viewpoint

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU
Thanks for the response and the video, Pygo. :)

Every religion believe that there is life after death. This is why people embrace religion although in various different religions. Fear of life after death is the reason for it. That's why Theists often wonder about Atheists. "Don't they afraid if their belief that there's no life after death is wrong?".

I have taught about religious tolerance since I was kid, and I still learn how to build it until now. But I notice, religious tolerance is only for Theists, not include Atheists. I think it's because the big gap in believe in God.

So I was curious, do Atheists notice this Theists stance?.
Reply

Newly Born
09-01-2014, 07:05 PM
Hello Frazer,
I am not as knowledgeable as a scholar of Islam since I have been practising it for the last 9 months but would you please watch the video below to try to see how a man 1400 years ago write such a great book consisting so many miracles in it.



islamictube.com/5246/miracle-word-count-quran-gems
Reply

Pygoscelis
09-01-2014, 09:07 PM
"Don't they afraid if their belief that there's no life after death is wrong?"

From what I have read of most religions, the Gods depicted seem to care as much if not mor about people worshiping false gods than none at all.

Also, I admit I could be wrong, and God or Gods may Exist, but I see no reason to think any established religion truly knows what that would be or what he, she, it or they may want of me. It is as plausible to me that they would dislike prayer and worship than that they would like it.

I also cant imagine why any God, especially a just God, would punish me for something unintentional. Atheists dont choose to be Atheists. I dont get to choose if I believe. I suppose I could lie and pretend to believe, but surely a God would know it.

When you don't believe there is anything after death, you literally have nothing to fear. I don't have any sense of existence before I was born. I don't believe that will be any different after I die.

Atheists probably have less fear of death than most theists, except perhaps for those who are absolutely sure they are headed for the paradise and not hell when they die. Those ones I would think should actually be eager to die and get there.
Reply

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