The Evidence that the Koran is the Word of God

[daveyats]

"Qur'an was not revealed in form of tablet. But Allah told verses to angel Gabriel, and then angel Gabriel told again to prophet Muhammad"

I came across this quote while browsing the forum and It sparked off some questions for me. Please treat these questions as coming from a person who has very limited knowledge about Islam.

1. How do muslims know that Muhammad is a true prophet? Meaning what is the proof that his message was divine and infallible?

From watching youtube debates etc...I gather that the main evidence is that the Koran (his message) is unique. It is a book that we can't reproduce or create today hence it is divine. I personally think this is a very strange reasoning because I'm pretty sure no one can reproduce something like the Sanskrit manuscripts, the Bible or the Buddhist texts as well. The Koran is also not entirely original because it "borrowed" from the Bible and Torah. I mean "borrowed" in the sense that it is a continuation/correction of information/facts that were already there.

2. If Allah could not prevent the previous books - Bible and Torah from being corrupted, what guarantee is there that the Koran is not corrupted?
In the first place, why didn't Allah protect His previous revelations? was he unable to protect it or didn't care that much that men will read a corrupted message?

The other thing is, I understand the Old testament (including the Torah) and New Testament are complementary. meaning the corruption didn't just occur at the new testament, it had to occur with the old testament in order to complement the new testament.

That represents a good 500 if not 1000 years where the revelation of Allah was allowed to be corrupted.

3. Did Mohammed write down the messages himself? Or did someone else record it for him?

Appreciate any responses. Internet links will do but personal responses preferred. I'll keep my responses to a minimum to avoid potentially adding any fuel to this "fire".

[greenhill]

Peace to you.

How do I put it? When we take a look at something from a portion of it, then we tend not to see the whole picture.

Yes, it is a continuation hence the similarities. But even in some cases, the same stories are different. If one says it happened one way and the other says it happens the other way, then both cannot be correct. So, hence the alterations or the inaccuracies and at worst, man filling up the gaps with his own ideas. The story of Adam is a good difference, in terms of perspective.

I believe there are threads in the past that speaks on this subject.

Don't ask me why, but the previous Books were sent for the Jews. Hence it was for them to preserve it. They chose to corrupt it. The Quran was sent for all humanity. Hence it had to be protected. How? So many people have learnt it by heart. Over generations. This is just an example.


Peace

[daveyats]

Yes, it is a continuation hence the similarities. But even in some cases, the same stories are different. If one says it happened one way and the other says it happens the other way, then both cannot be correct. So, hence the alterations or the inaccuracies and at worst, man filling up the gaps with his own ideas. The story of Adam is a good difference, in terms of perspective.

thats the problem. from what I can see, there are 3 books - the Old Testament (OT), New Testament (NT), and the Koran. The OT and NT do not contradict each other but the Koran does. I'm just wondering how do muslims resolve this?

The other thing is, the formation of the Koran reminded me of how the Mormon Bible came to be. A person called Joseph Smith claimed to have received a message from God, in the form of a gold tablet from an angel Moroni. Christians reject him as a false prophet because his message contradicts the previous ones. I have to say though, it was much easier to dismiss Joseph Smith's as a fraud because he didn't claim to do any miracles and no one else but him actually saw the gold tablets!

Don't ask me why, but the previous Books were sent for the Jews. Hence it was for them to preserve it. They chose to corrupt it. The Quran was sent for all humanity. Hence it had to be protected. How? So many people have learnt it by heart. Over generations. This is just an example.

What if this is just a misconception? What if the Bible was entrusted to the Jews but the message was meant for all humanity? having read the Bible I wish to say that it is actually addressed not only to Jews but to non-Jews...but my usual disclaimer: don't hear it from me! you can ask your christian friends or read it to evaluate it for yourself.

Just to add on, I just learnt that muslims hold the view that the Koran is not corrupted because it was perfectly copied from the time it was compiled. (This is my understanding, that the Koran did not exist as a single unity until some person decided to compile it into one version and burn all other versions). The Bible was not copied perfectly hence it was corrupted.

[ardianto]

Greeting and peace be with you, Daveyats.

I am just a lay Muslim, but I will try to answer your question. And I am really sorry if there are words that maybe can offend you although I don't intend to it.

Okay, my answers are ........

1] It's not easy to find the words to explain why I believe in Islam. But it's like the reason why you believe in Christianity. And of course, since I believe in Islam, I believe that Muhammad is the true prophet, and the last prophet.

About Qur'an, here the verse that explain that Allah guard the Qur'an to guarantee its originality
"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian."
(Al-Hijr: 9)

About messages in Qur'an that "borrowed" from Bible and Torah. These books are holly books that come from Allah. Of course, the book that come later related to book that came earlier.


2] I am sure you know that God (Allah) can do anything, but He is not always do. Like when He didn't give what you hope after you pray because you hope something. Yes, God could protect Bible and Torah, but He didn't do it.

Why?. I will answer from a Muslim point of view.

Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last prophet and there were many prophets before. Few of those prophets brought "shariat" or law (in wider context) that we know as "religion". And these shariat came in order. When the new prophet who bring shariat has come, the the previous shariat become 'expired'.

Frankly, if someone ask me, is Christianity religion that came from Allah?, I will answer "yes!". And if he ask again why don't I convert to Christianity if I believe that Christianity is religion of Allah?. My answer is simple, Christianity has been replaced by the newest religion, Islam. So I follow the newest religion.

Back to the question question, why Allah protect Qur'an but didn't protect Bible and Torah?. It's because Bible and Torah would be replaced by Qur'an.


3] Prophet Muhammad didn't write down Qur'an into book or other medias. He just memorized the verses in Qur'an, And he also told his companions to memorize. So, there were many people who memorized Qur'an in that time.

Qur'an started to written down in form of book (officially) after prophet Muhammad passed away. But memorize Qur'an is still be a unique skill of Muslims that maintained well until now. You can find many hufaz or those who memorize Qur'an in many Muslim communities. Even few members in this forum are hufaz.

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[daveyats]

I believe that Muhammad is the true prophet, and the last prophet

Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet? The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death. So at that time, before the Koran, what made the people that follow him believe that he was a true prophet?

It's because Bible and Torah would be replaced by Qur'an

How do you know for sure that the Quran is the last one? The Bible also claim to be the final revelation so either it is corrupted by man, or Allah change his mind.

I apologize because I know I'm being critical with my questioning....I'm just really curious to know why do muslims believe so strongly in Islam. In engineering terms, we have to do stress testing to make sure the parts we put into a lift or car can withstand the pressure/wear & tear. So that the lift or car is safe for people to use. Hope you can treat my questioning as sort of a stress test for the claims of Islam.

[InToTheRain]

Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet? The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death. So at that time, before the Koran, what made the people that follow him believe that he was a true prophet?



How do you know for sure that the Quran is the last one? The Bible also claim to be the final revelation so either it is corrupted by man, or Allah change his mind.

I apologize because I know I'm being critical with my questioning....I'm just really curious to know why do muslims believe so strongly in Islam. In engineering terms, we have to do stress testing to make sure the parts we put into a lift or car can withstand the pressure/wear & tear. So that the lift or car is safe for people to use. Hope you can treat my questioning as sort of a stress test for the claims of Islam.

We know Mohammad :saws: as we know Isa(AS) and Musa(AS) were prophets of Allah Most High. Because of the countless number of people who attested to that fact during their time. It's no coincidence that there are similarities in their message as it is after all from the same source. They were the elect of Allah Most High and innocents who only sought to rekindle our relationship with Allah Most High.

Even if the Torah and Bible were preserved it doesn't mean it will be accepted by Allah Most High as Sharia changes with time and believers in God are expected to conform to the Messengers sent to them.

There are many reasons why the Qur'an is preserved and not the other scriptures:

1) The millions of Hafiz who have memorised the Qur'an cover to cover. This means that even if you were to burn every copy of the Qur'an in the world; we will easily reproduce it.

2) Qur'an was always recited and Allah Most High provided Muslims incentives to memorize and recite it. The word Qur'an is a derivative of Iqra(read) and Qari (recitor)

3) Qur'an was always recited as soon as it was revealed. It was not left in the confines of scribes or a select few to manage its preservation. The Qur'an mentions the scribes adulterated the previous scriptures. For example the scribes kept the bible and revealed it to Christians 300 years after Isa(AS) ascended. This was never the case with Islam.

4) To date even though Mohammad(SAW) prophececised that Muslims will split into 73 secs and the Majority will always be on truth. To date despite the number of secterian devision there has never been a dispute regarding what should be contained in the Qur'an. However there are always a minority who misinterpret them due to their arrogance and ignorance.

5) The grammar and rules of Arabic language is dictated by the Qur'an. So the language itself is being preserved. However this is not the case with other scriptures for example the Isa(AS) spoke and wrote the bible in Aramaic. Even if the translators intentions are sincere there will be transliteration problems as the language itself is non-existent thus bringing variances each time it's translated:
Race to save the language of Jesus: Aramaic in danger of becoming extinct as number of speakers of ancient tongue plummets | Mail Online


6) The Qur'an is as the Author of the book claims...

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah
Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,
And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]."

from Allah Most High; and we see no reason to believe otherwise. In it are revelations also regarding previous Prophets of Allah Most High who are innocent and sinless. And the coming of the leader of the Prophets and Massengers Mohammad :saws: has been foretold in the previous scriptures so it would have been better for Humanity had the Torah, Injil and other previous scriptures been preserved so they know who Mohammad :saws: was.

We cannot blame Allah Most High for the corruption of previous scriptures no more then we can blame God for allowing atrocities on earth; it's a result of people disobeying Allah Most high and practice of our free will to choose. But we are grateful for His mercy in guaranteeing the preservation of Qur'an by putting it in the hands of people who understood its importance and helping us learn from the mistakes of our forefathers.

regards

[Ahmad H]

2. If Allah could not prevent the previous books - Bible and Torah from being corrupted, what guarantee is there that the Koran is not corrupted?
In the first place, why didn't Allah protect His previous revelations? was he unable to protect it or didn't care that much that men will read a corrupted message?

I came across a clear answer for this and thought that it is the most important point to address first. For if the Qur'an is tampered with, then what assurance is there that Muslims will be guided for later on? The Holy Qur'an states:

15:9 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

This is Allah's assurance. So this is what we believe. As for the Torah being corrupted, I do not hold that the actual text was corrupted, but only the teachings were. I am going to quote an extract from the book Al-Fauz Al-Kabir, by Hazrat Shah Waliyullah (ra), who explained the sciences of the commentary of the Qur'an. He states:

[BEGIN QUOTE]
It should be kept in mind that the Jews would modify the translation of Pentateuch and not the original text. This is what has been ascertained by me on the authority of Ibn Abbas. By a change in the meaning is meant their corrupt interpretation; this they did by imparting a meaning different from what the verse originally denoted. In fact, this was a display of their violence and deviation from the right course.
[END QUOTE]
(from page 9 of the book.)

Thus, the revelation of the Torah is not considered to be changed by Muslims, just the translation of it. The significance of this is that the Muslims would follow the ways of the Jews and do exactly as they have done. Meaning, the Qur'an would not be corrupted by Muslims, but Muslims would corrupt the meanings of the Qur'an and would modify translations in order to fit their own agendas. This was prophesied by the Holy Prophet (saw), that the Muslims would become like the Jews, step by step, inch by inch, cubit by cubit. They would do exactly as they had done.

[ardianto]

Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet? The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death. So at that time, before the Koran, what made the people that follow him believe that he was a true prophet?

In the time of prophet Muhammad, actually few of his companions started to write down Qur'an verses although just as personal note. And Qur'an started to written down officialy in form of book in the year 25 hijriah, 14 years after prophet Muhammad passed away.

There were many things that made people in that time follow prophet Muhammad, like his miracle, etc. I hope someone in this forum can give you link to stories about prophet Muhammad and his companions.

How do you know for sure that the Quran is the last one? The Bible also claim to be the final revelation so either it is corrupted by man, or Allah change his mind.

"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing."
(Al-Ahzab: 40)

Prophet Muhammad is the last of the prophets. It's means, Qur'an is the last holy book because if there's no the next prophet, then who will bring the next holy book?

I apologize because I know I'm being critical with my questioning....I'm just really curious to know why do muslims believe so strongly in Islam. In engineering terms, we have to do stress testing to make sure the parts we put into a lift or car can withstand the pressure/wear & tear. So that the lift or car is safe for people to use. Hope you can treat my questioning as sort of a stress test for the claims of Islam.

Before you ride a lift in tall building, did you do stress testing on this lift?. I am sure you didn't. But you still ride because you believe this lift is safe. And after you arrived on the destination floor you are sure that this lift is safe to be ridden again. If we use the lift analogy, then our position is not on those who make this lift, but on those who use this lift.

The cause why I become Muslim was simple, I was born in Muslim family. I didn't do a test to know is Islam the right religion or not. I just accepted the religion that I must accept. And then after I lived as practicing Muslim, I am convinced that I am on the right path.

As we know, life is not always easy. Often I got problem in my life. When I am in trouble, I always pray and bring myself closer to Allah, and I always feel His power. This is what make me sure that I already on the right path and I should not leave this path.

Daveyats, I very appreciate your critical attitude because it will make us can understand each other better and will make us can respect each other better too. I apologize too if you feel I offend you.

:)

[Scimitar]

1. How do muslims know that Muhammad is a true prophet? Meaning what is the proof that his message was divine and infallible?

From watching youtube debates etc...I gather that the main evidence is that the Koran (his message) is unique. It is a book that we can't reproduce or create today hence it is divine. I personally think this is a very strange reasoning because I'm pretty sure no one can reproduce something like the Sanskrit manuscripts, the Bible or the Buddhist texts as well. The Koran is also not entirely original because it "borrowed" from the Bible and Torah. I mean "borrowed" in the sense that it is a continuation/correction of information/facts that were already there.

then you mean a "continuation" not a borrowing. A better term would be "completion" because it corrects the human inserted corruptions in the previous scriptures.

As for the bible - well there are "versions" of it, so you'd be wrong there - anyone can formulate a bible in the modern age - plenty of already groups do.

2. If Allah could not prevent the previous books - Bible and Torah from being corrupted, what guarantee is there that the Koran is not corrupted?
In the first place, why didn't Allah protect His previous revelations? was he unable to protect it or didn't care that much that men will read a corrupted message?

The other thing is, I understand the Old testament (including the Torah) and New Testament are complementary. meaning the corruption didn't just occur at the new testament, it had to occur with the old testament in order to complement the new testament.

That represents a good 500 if not 1000 years where the revelation of Allah was allowed to be corrupted.

First of all, nowhere in the previous scriptures does God tell the believers that HE will protect the scripture... only when the Quran is revealed do we find this:

“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)” (15:9).

No such verse exists in the Torah or Gospel. And the Quran remains uncorrupted - So here is one proof - the other is in the fact that the Quran is still in its original form - memorized to heart by millions and millions of Muslims since the 7th century to date. Not even a letter has been changed, removed, inserted etc - it is as it was in the 7th century

3. Did Mohammed write down the messages himself? Or did someone else record it for him?

Appreciate any responses. Internet links will do but personal responses preferred. I'll keep my responses to a minimum to avoid potentially adding any fuel to this "fire".

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh could not read nor write - he spoke what God commanded him to speak... does this sound familiar to you?

Look:

18 I will raise up for them a prophet (Prophet) from among their brethren like you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 And whoever will not hearken to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. —Deuteronomy 18:18-20

I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like you - obviously refers to prophet Muhammad pbuh
He shall speak to them what I command him - The Quran was revealed to Muhammad from God through the arch angel Gabriel, and thus it was revealed as a perfected scripture which has withstood the test of time and proven itself to be the penultimate word of God as revealed to Muhammad pbuh.
Muhammad pbuh was the final prophet and messenger of God and he completed his mission given to him by God, and thus completes the seal of Prophethood.

"He said,
“The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us;
he shone forth from Mount Paran; he came from the ten thousand of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand." Deuteronomy 33:2

Samau-al al Maghribi (A Jewish mathematician who converted to Islam) referred to this verse in his book as a prophecy of Muhammad pbuh. He said that Mount Sinai refers to Moses, Mount Seir refers to Jesus, and Mount Paran refers to Muhammad peace be upon them. Some contemporary Muslim scholars have also pointed to the similarity between Deuteronomy 33:2 and Qur'an 95:1-3 where "the Fig and the Olive" refers to Jesus, "Mount Sinai" refers to Moses, and "Mecca" refers to Muhammad.
"the ten thousand of holy ones" are the ten thousand Companions of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

"Behold! My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect One, in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. He shall not cry out, nor raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench. In truth He shall bring forth justice. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He has established justice in the earth; and the islands shall wait for His law." —Isaiah 42:1

Muhammad is believed by Muslims to be the Chosen Servant of God and his Light, while Christians believe that Jesus was the begotten God of God, not the servant of God. Thus, Christians have no right, argue some Muslim writers, to call Isaiah 42 a prophecy of Jesus. Qur'an 3:159, Qur'an 9:128 and Qur'an 68:4 shed a light on the gentle character of Muhammad, and from the time they knew him, Muslims looked at Muhammad as the mercy sent by God to all the creation. He did not cut down trees and made it law that cutting down trees during times of conquest was to be made illegal.

Sing unto the Lord a new song, and His praise from the ends of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that is therein, the islands, and the inhabitants thereof! Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar inhabits. Let the inhabitants of Sela sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory to the Lord, and declare His praise in the islands. The Lord shall go forth like a mighty man; He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea, roar; He shall prevail against His enemies. —Isaiah 42:10

Isaiah 42:13 is believed to be a prophecy of the Muslim conquests. "the new song" is often interpreted as a reference to the Arabic Qur'an or to the Adhan "the Islamic call to prayer". The Islands could be a reference to Indonesia and Malaysia - housing the largest populous of Muslims in the world.
The mention of Mount Sela, "the mountain of Medina" and the mention of Kedar "the forefather of Muhammad", in verse 11, is also considered by Muslims to be a proof.

"Sing, O Barren, You who have not borne! Break ye forth into singing and cry aloud, You who have not laboured with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman," says the Lord. - Isaiah 54:1

The "Barren One" is Mecca, since no prophet was born to it before Muhammad pbuh.

"Have not labored with child" means "have not received a prophet".
According to theologists - "Desolate woman" refers to Hagar and "Married woman" refers to Sarah
"Enlarge the place of your tent, Stretch your Curtains wide, do not hold back; lengthen your cords, strengthen your stakes, for you will spread out to the right and to the left"
This passage refers to the Muslim conquests.

The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
"Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert
A highway for our God. - Isaiah 40:3

Isaiah 40:3-5 as a prophecy of Muhammad is also common among Muslims. The Kaaba is the direction all Muslims face in prayer and we make the pilgrimage to it once in a lifetime if possible. The Kaaba is in Mecca, a city built in a desert valley, surrounded by deserts.
God will come from the south, and the holy one from mount Pharan: His glory covered the heavens, and the earth is full of his praise. - Habakkuk 3:3
Since there is no connection between Jesus pbuh and Mount Paran "the Mount of Ishmael", the "holy one" in this verse is Muhammad pbuh.

I can go on and on and on... but you get the idea.

Scimi

[MuslimInshallah]

[QUOTE=daveyats;2833039]Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet?

Smile. Ah Daveyats! This is a bit like saying: apart from the US having the most terrifying military capacity on the planet, why should we listen to the Americans?


The Qur'an is a most amazing book! Unfortunately, you've probably just read bits of it, and perhaps from a translation of questionable quality. There are, unfortunately, ideologically-driven translations out there. And there is also the fact that even the most sincere believer has his or her own weaknesses and persectives.


The Qur'an is a most amazing Book! I have read the Bible (both old and new testaments), various Hindu and Buddhist scriptures, Bahai texts, I've had a look at the Book of Mormon, I've heard speak, and talked with Native Canadians about their spiritual ideas... I have looked for God everywhere, and you you know what? I have seen Him in many places. The Book of Mormon was dead to me. Some Bahai texts are beautifully written. Poetic, even. But somehow, flavourless. But I heard God in the words of an Algonquin woman, and I saw some of His Words shining out at me from amongst the text of the Baghavad Gita. And I saw many more Words calling to me from the Bible.


But the Qur'an... even in translation, the words seemed brighter, more filled with His Colour. Yes, it was a mystical experience. I believe that God did this for me because I could not directly access His Words with my mind. So He strengthened the message through my Heart.


But the more I accessed the Qur'an with my mind... Oh Daveyats! It is so amazingly Beautiful! It's like looking at a fractal. It is beautiful even from a distance. But it is breathtaking to look more closely at the fractal, and see the intricate pattern repeating into infinity...


The more I study the Qur'an (in Arabic), the more I find I am being told. I have read the same surah many times, and each time I examine it more closely, I find something new. And so very clever! I've read Shakespeare and Chaucer, and I enjoy them. And it is fun to look at their texts more closely to tease out the subtleties within. But they are nothing close to the Qur'an! No human could have written this.


So when you say “Other than the Qur'an... what proof...?”, it is just plain funny.

[QUOTE=daveyats;2833039]The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death.


As for the Qur'an being written hundreds of years after the Prophet (PBUH)... This is just simply false (where are you getting your information from?!). The Prophet (PBUH) recited it and the Companions memorized it. And they also wrote it down on loose pieces of palm leaves, and bones and bits of wood. After the Prophet died (PBUH), and the Qur'an started to spread outside of the local Arabic-speaking people, there was a concern that the non-native speakers might start to drift from the original, and write down erroneous texts (in fact, this started to happen). So the ruler at the time (I don't recall exactly whom off the top of my head, but it was one of the first 4 ruling Companions) asked one of the wives of the Prophet (May He be Pleased with her) to help another Companion to put together the original text (she had a complete copy on loose leaf, as I recall). The text was carefully gone over by various of the Companions of the Prophet (May God Bless them all), and several copies were eventually produced (this was in the days before the printing press...). Two of them are still extant, I believe. One is in Turkey, if I'm not mistaken, and another in Kazakhstan or Kyrgyzstan (sorry, I tend to mix the two). [I don't have the particular reference at hand, but try The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an edited by Jane Dammen McAuliffe, Chapter 7: From palm leaves to the internet. It's missing some information I've seen elsewhere, but it makes an honest effort. It also notes that a particular (non-Muslim, I deeply suspect) scholar is trying to make the argument that the Qur'an was written much later than evidence suggests. You should know that many "experts" in Islamic Studies in the so-called "West" are not Muslims, and some have frankly hostile agendas. It's getting better than it was, but still…it must be borne in mind when reading these texts].



Though you know... smile... the oral memorized version is considered the authoritative one. And that has never been lost.

[Insaanah]

As for the Torah being corrupted, I do not hold that the actual text was corrupted, but only the teachings were.

Thus, the revelation of the Torah is not considered to be changed by Muslims, just the translation of it.

:sl: brother Ahmad H,

The Qur'an states that both the words themselves, and the meanings were also changed. Both types of changes went on. This ayah tells us the the text was also changed.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [2:79]

Changing/twisting meanings is mentioned separately. Concealing also went on. This post has some relevant verses:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1531055

If you believe that the text of the Torah wasn't changed, and is what Allah revealed, then the implications of that must be considered carefully, as the Torah as it stands says that Nuh alyhissalaam became drunken, and that Lut alayhissalaam committed incest (we seek Allah's refuge from such words or beliefs).

[daveyats]

Before you ride a lift in tall building, did you do stress testing on this lift?. I am sure you didn't. But you still ride because you believe this lift is safe. And after you arrived on the destination floor you are sure that this lift is safe to be ridden again. If we use the lift analogy, then our position is not on those who make this lift, but on those who use this lift.

The cause why I become Muslim was simple, I was born in Muslim family. I didn't do a test to know is Islam the right religion or not. I just accepted the religion that I must accept. And then after I lived as practicing Muslim, I am convinced that I am on the right path.

As we know, life is not always easy. Often I got problem in my life. When I am in trouble, I always pray and bring myself closer to Allah, and I always feel His power. This is what make me sure that I already on the right path and I should not leave this path.

Daveyats, I very appreciate your critical attitude because it will make us can understand each other better and will make us can respect each other better too. I apologize too if you feel I offend you.

I enjoy talking with you Ardi. I agree with you that most people won't take the lift and question whether it is safe. We just take it on good faith that the people who certified the lift safe for use have done the stress testing and done their job with integrity. But if there are any doubts, there is a certificate in the lift that tells you when the testing was done, and done by whom. If the company that did the testing has a history of lift accidents, then you might not want to put your faith in their lift. If the company that tested the lift is reliable, then you can reasonably believe that nothing will happen to you even if you take the lift everyday... i think that is how we should approach matters of faith and religion. (I'm not suggesting that islam is like a bad company, this is just an example)

my story is quite similar to yours. I was born into a christian family and for most part of my life I considered myself a christian. until I encountered Jesus Christ myself...and I realised that there is no such thing as a born-christian. even as a christian for many years, I still ask or encounter critical questions about my own faith...e.g. if God is good why does he allow suffering? etc. and it is such questions that cause me to search for answers and strengthen my faith..

[Muhaba]

One of the greatest miracles of the Quran is that it is unchanged. God promised to preserve it and He has kept His promise for more than 1400 years. The Quran in Arabic (which is the original) can not be altered. Every Arabic Quran in the world (and there are billions) is exactly the same as every other Quran. Not a difference of a single letter! And that is proof enough that the Quran is the Word of God.

There are other proofs too. But this is one great proof. for more than 1400 years, no one has been able to change the Quran!

[Muhaba]

Qur'an started to written down in form of book (officially) after prophet Muhammad passed away.

You are wrong about that. The Quran was written down from the start. The Prophet (SAW) had more than 40 scribes and he would call them whenever a verse or Surah was revealed. He would then recite the verse(s) (or Surah) and tell the scribes where to place it in the written Quran, before such a Surah / after such a Surah / before such and such verse / after such and suce verse. Thus the Quran was not only written in the time of the Prophet (SAW) but was also compiled in order. Furthermore, the Prophet (SAW) would send the written Quran along with a reciter (Qari) and not just send a Qari to a people to teach them the Quran. This proves that the Quran was in book form from the beginning and only the memorization was not depended on.

[syed_z]

You are wrong about that. The Quran was written down from the start. The Prophet (SAW) had more than 40 scribes and he would call them whenever a verse or Surah was revealed. He would then recite the verse(s) (or Surah) and tell the scribes where to place it in the written Quran, before such a Surah / after such a Surah / before such and such verse / after such and suce verse. Thus the Quran was not only written in the time of the Prophet (SAW) but was also compiled in order. Furthermore, the Prophet (SAW) would send the written Quran along with a reciter (Qari) and not just send a Qari to a people to teach them the Quran. This proves that the Quran was in book form from the beginning and only the memorization was not depended on.

Salaam Sister, would like to correct you here :)

The Quran was revealed over a period of 23 Hundred Years of Prophet's ministry and it was memorized by several of his companions. These revelations till the passing away of Prophet (saw) were compiled in the order and arrangement on the instructions of the Prophet himself, exactly as we have the arrangements of the Surahs/Chapters today but only existed in the form of Suhuf (loose pieces of writing materials) for example on paper, dry animal skin, date skins, papyrus etc.

When many of the Huffaz i.e. who memorized the Quran by heart died in the Battle of Yamamah it became utmost imp to compile the Quran in to a Mushaf i.e. Book form before it gets lost in the past. Thus a Mushaf was prepared which was kept with Ayesha (r.a) during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr (r.a) and with Hafsa (r.a), wife of the Prophet (saw), during the time of Caliphate of Umar (r.a).

As Islam kept spreading and other lands came under the dominion of Islam, people in Iraq and Syria who had met a companion of Prophet began to recite their own reading of the Quran because they held that their's was correct because they had learnt from an eminent companion such as Abdullah Ibn Masud (r.a) or Miqdad (r.a). This could have become a cause of division and So during the Caliphate of Uthman (r.a) the copy with Hafsa (r.a) was officially published and spread throughout the Muslim world and all other readings of the Quran which Muslims from a particular city or tribe held 'as the only sacred one' were ordered to be collected and burned. It is this copy that we have in our possession today, the entire Muslim world.

So it was never compiled in a Mushaf form till after the passing away of Prophet (saw).

[daveyats]

I won't dispute that the Quran is perfectly preserved since its creation. Like I said, I don't have much knowledge of Islam and I'm not here to cynically challenge muslims here. I didn't even read the Koran. I'm just asking the theological questions that I might have asked if I were a skeptic. and it just happens that I'm a Christian so there is some comparison between the claims made by our two religions.

Firstly, I'm not blaming God for allowing the bible to be corrupted by men. I'm asking who is the God of the Koran - what is his character and nature - by examining why God would allow the bible to be corrupted.

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.
2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.
3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.
4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? (bear in mind that the Koran came 600 years after the Bible...i read this in another thread) if yes, then what guarantee is there that the Koran does not contain any corruption? It may be perfectly preserved in its current form but what if mistakes were introduced from the very start?

just my critical questions...like I said, its not a challenge to muslims here. just my 2 cts, you can treat it as food for thought or just ramblings from a non-believer if you want.

[daveyats]

[QUOTE=MuslimInshallah;2833074][QUOTE=daveyats;2833039]Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet?

Smile. Ah Daveyats! This is a bit like saying: apart from the US having the most terrifying military capacity on the planet, why should we listen to the Americans?


The Qur'an is a most amazing book! Unfortunately, you've probably just read bits of it, and perhaps from a translation of questionable quality. There are, unfortunately, ideologically-driven translations out there. And there is also the fact that even the most sincere believer has his or her own weaknesses and persectives.


The Qur'an is a most amazing Book! I have read the Bible (both old and new testaments), various Hindu and Buddhist scriptures, Bahai texts, I've had a look at the Book of Mormon, I've heard speak, and talked with Native Canadians about their spiritual ideas... I have looked for God everywhere, and you you know what? I have seen Him in many places. The Book of Mormon was dead to me. Some Bahai texts are beautifully written. Poetic, even. But somehow, flavourless. But I heard God in the words of an Algonquin woman, and I saw some of His Words shining out at me from amongst the text of the Baghavad Gita. And I saw many more Words calling to me from the Bible.


But the Qur'an... even in translation, the words seemed brighter, more filled with His Colour. Yes, it was a mystical experience. I believe that God did this for me because I could not directly access His Words with my mind. So He strengthened the message through my Heart.


But the more I accessed the Qur'an with my mind... Oh Daveyats! It is so amazingly Beautiful! It's like looking at a fractal. It is beautiful even from a distance. But it is breathtaking to look more closely at the fractal, and see the intricate pattern repeating into infinity...


The more I study the Qur'an (in Arabic), the more I find I am being told. I have read the same surah many times, and each time I examine it more closely, I find something new. And so very clever! I've read Shakespeare and Chaucer, and I enjoy them. And it is fun to look at their texts more closely to tease out the subtleties within. But they are nothing close to the Qur'an! No human could have written this.


So when you say “Other than the Qur'an... what proof...?”, it is just plain funny.

The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death.


As for the Qur'an being written hundreds of years after the Prophet (PBUH)... This is just simply false (where are you getting your information from?!). The Prophet (PBUH) recited it and the Companions memorized it. And they also wrote it down on loose pieces of palm leaves, and bones and bits of wood. After the Prophet died (PBUH), and the Qur'an started to spread outside of the local Arabic-speaking people, there was a concern that the non-native speakers might start to drift from the original, and write down erroneous texts (in fact, this started to happen). So the ruler at the time (I don't recall exactly whom off the top of my head, but it was one of the first 4 ruling Companions) asked one of the wives of the Prophet (May He be Pleased with her) to help another Companion to put together the original text (she had a complete copy on loose leaf, as I recall). The text was carefully gone over by various of the Companions of the Prophet (May God Bless them all), and several copies were eventually produced (this was in the days before the printing press...). Two of them are still extant, I believe. One is in Turkey, if I'm not mistaken, and another in Kazakhstan or Kyrgyzstan (sorry, I tend to mix the two). [I don't have the particular reference at hand, but try The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an edited by Jane Dammen McAuliffe, Chapter 7: From palm leaves to the internet. It's missing some information I've seen elsewhere, but it makes an honest effort. It also notes that a particular (non-Muslim, I deeply suspect) scholar is trying to make the argument that the Qur'an was written much later than evidence suggests. You should know that many "experts" in Islamic Studies in the so-called "West" are not Muslims, and some have frankly hostile agendas. It's getting better than it was, but still…it must be borne in mind when reading these texts].



Though you know... smile... the oral memorized version is considered the authoritative one. And that has never been lost.

What would you say to a person who after your thread says -"I have the exact same experience as you. I've read many religious text but none spoke so personally and deeply as ________ (insert your choice of religious text)"

I don't doubt the reality of your experience with the Koran...and personally I admire your effort to read all those text...sometimes I even fall asleep while reading the bible at bedtime :embarrass

but i think a skeptic would say that the Koran is only experientially real to you. It is your personal preference and not necessarilty objectively true. Someone might pick up the Koran and have a completely different experience from you.

[daveyats]

then you mean a "continuation" not a borrowing. A better term would be "completion" because it corrects the human inserted corruptions in the previous scriptures.

As for the bible - well there are "versions" of it, so you'd be wrong there - anyone can formulate a bible in the modern age - plenty of already groups do.

I'm being really critical and skeptical here...it could very well be a borrowing and alteration of the bible. just like what Joseph Smith did with the mormon bible. but to determine that would take some effort in comparing the reliability of the bible vs the koran.

I'm not sure if you're saying that there are many 'versions' of the bible out of ignorance because there is only one version with many translations. I don't think you mean that, because i googled the koran verses (Quran 2:256) and it brought me to a webpage with 9 different english translations of the original text. I'm not sure if you're referring to chapters that were left out of it? cos those were written by gnostics and rejected by the early church (disclaimer: don't hear it from me). I read one of those before, I think it was the book of Enoch and its quite apparent to me why the claim to be divinely inspired was rejected.

First of all, nowhere in the previous scriptures does God tell the believers that HE will protect the scripture... only when the Quran is revealed do we find this:

“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)” (15:9).

No such verse exists in the Torah or Gospel. And the Quran remains uncorrupted - So here is one proof - the other is in the fact that the Quran is still in its original form - memorized to heart by millions and millions of Muslims since the 7th century to date. Not even a letter has been changed, removed, inserted etc - it is as it was in the 7th century

but what if the bible does say that it is the complete revelation of God? then logically, you'll have to say that it is the work of men who corrupted it...yes?

[Scimitar]

I'm being really critical and skeptical here...it could very well be a borrowing and alteration of the bible. just like what Joseph Smith did with the mormon bible. but to determine that would take some effort in comparing the reliability of the bible vs the koran.

I'm not sure if you're saying that there are many 'versions' of the bible out of ignorance because there is only one version with many translations. I don't think you mean that, because i googled the koran verses (Quran 2:256) and it brought me to a webpage with 9 different english translations of the original text. I'm not sure if you're referring to chapters that were left out of it? cos those were written by gnostics and rejected by the early church (disclaimer: don't hear it from me). I read one of those before, I think it was the book of Enoch and its quite apparent to me why the claim to be divinely inspired was rejected.

No... there are many versions of the bible - and I am not referring to translations.

Even the versions have been translated into many languages so you need to work out that when I say "versions" I do mean "versions".

For example, which version do you follow? KJV? NIV? which one? pick any from these "versions" and you will also find them "translated" into other languages.

King James Version (KJV)
New International Version (NIV)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
New King James Version (NKJV)
English Standard Version (ESV)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
New Century Version (NCV)
New English Bible (NEB)
American Standard Version (ASV)
Good News Bible (GNB) / Today’s English Version (TEV)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Today’s New International Version (TNIV)
New English Translation (NET)
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
God’s Word Translation (GW)
Common English Bible (CEB)
New International Readers Version (NIrV)
Easy-To-Read Version (ERV)
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Bible in Basic English (BBE)
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
World English Bible (WEB)
Revised English Bible (REB)
Jerusalem Bible (JB)
New American Bible (NAB)
The Living Bible (TLB)
The Message (MSG)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
The Bishops' Bible
Douay-Rheims Version (DRV)
Tyndale Bible
Geneva Bible

NOTE: A "version" is not a "translation", dig?

but what if the bible does say that it is the complete revelation of God? then logically, you'll have to say that it is the work of men who corrupted it...yes?

No I wouldn't - look, it's really simple - the Torah was literally burned into the rock and handed to Moses pbuh - what did the Jews do to it? Made mince pies out of it.

No holy book has ever been given the promise of God that HE will protect it from corruption except for the Quran.

Scimi

[syed_z]

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.
2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.
3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.
4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? (bear in mind that the Koran came 600 years after the Bible...i read this in another thread) if yes, then what guarantee is there that the Koran does not contain any corruption? It may be perfectly preserved in its current form but what if mistakes were introduced from the very start?

Hi Daveyats,

I would like to share a Verse of the Quran explaining why Allah (swt) has sent different books to different nations and why has He decided to send down the Quran as the Final Message, but before I can do that, if we for a moment keep aside the discussion and the tampering of Bible, I would like to know from you, What is the Guidance that Allah (swt) has provided for other nations around the world? Is it the Bible then? Has it been sent for all mankind? If yes then how is that correct, does it say in the Bible? Also If Bible is the last and final guidance from God, Al Mighty then did He decide to cease the process of revelation with Jesus (a.s)? Why did God decide to cease the process of revelation?

[InToTheRain]

I won't dispute that the Quran is perfectly preserved since its creation. Like I said, I don't have much knowledge of Islam and I'm not here to cynically challenge muslims here. I didn't even read the Koran. I'm just asking the theological questions that I might have asked if I were a skeptic. and it just happens that I'm a Christian so there is some comparison between the claims made by our two religions...

:)

I think these questions occur naturally and it did so to me also. After all true conviction comes from experience and not theory which is left in the realms of possibility.

I recommend you read this book as it is a translation of Imam Ghazali(RA)'s book by a Christian author.
Al-Ghazali's Deliverance from Error and Other Works: Amazon.co.uk: Al-Munqidh min Al-Dalal, Imam Abu Hamid Al Ghazali, R.J. McCarthy: Books

It's an autobiography in which Imam Ghazali(RA) poses many philosophical questions and answers. Imam Ghazali(RA) himself was critical thinker of everything including Islam from the outset as he read the sayings of Mohammad(SAW):
“Each child is born in a state of Fitrah (Islam). Then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian.” (Saheeh al-Bukhari)

So to him it was about returning back to the state of the Fitrah and not simply following those around him. As he says, he drove into the depths of other ways of life like a roaring lion and not a cautious coward.

I also think this is relevant to the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gjp3hCCTwc


My thoughts on your questions:

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.

He allowed it to be corrupted as he allows those who disobey him to practice their free will on Earth. If there remains no one among the people to worship Allah Most High then that civilisation is distroyed just like the people of Nuh(AS) and Lot(AS). Isa(AS) had true disciples who were still guiding mankind for example the Gospel of Barnabas. Also We see evidence of the existence of the true message of Isa(AS) during the time of Mohammad(SAW) because it was a Preists that guided one of his companions named Salman al Farsi(RA) towards Mohammad :saws: as they spoke of the imminent arrival of a new Massenger of God in Madinah. It is an amazing story and exemplary story of a Seeker Going from fire worshipping to Christianity and Islam!
THE STORY OF SALMAN AL FARSI (RA) AND HIS AMAZING QUEST FOR KNOWLEDGE | Rashadi Foundation


2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.

Allah Most High is aware of everything; Him allowing certain events to occur doesn't necessarily mean He didn't see it coming.

3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.

Shariah changes with time. Prophets are those that repeat the message of the previous Massenger of God and Massengers are those that come with new Laws. It doesn't show that God changes, but rather our way of life or circumstances change and God makes laws to allow us to adapt to those changes while keeping our faith intact for our own benefit.

4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? (bear in mind that the Koran came 600 years after the Bible...i read this in another thread) if yes, then what guarantee is there that the Koran does not contain any corruption? It may be perfectly preserved in its current form but what if mistakes were introduced from the very start?

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying Mohammad(SAW) made a mistake whilst conveying the Message? As Muslims we know this is not possible because God himself supervises His Prophets and Massengers. He has chosen them to represant Him. Revelations only come to prophets and massengers of God. A Prophet is one who repeats the message of the Last Massenger that came and a Massenger is a prophet that comes with New Shariah. However later on it is corrupted by man who are not Chosen by God.

If you are saying what if it was corrupted after the Death of Mohammad(SAW) then it would have been obvious as we would have had multiple versions of the Qur'an due to the dispute over what should be contained in it.


Regards

[ardianto]

I enjoy talking with you Ardi. I agree with you that most people won't take the lift and question whether it is safe. We just take it on good faith that the people who certified the lift safe for use have done the stress testing and done their job with integrity. But if there are any doubts, there is a certificate in the lift that tells you when the testing was done, and done by whom. If the company that did the testing has a history of lift accidents, then you might not want to put your faith in their lift. If the company that tested the lift is reliable, then you can reasonably believe that nothing will happen to you even if you take the lift everyday... i think that is how we should approach matters of faith and religion. (I'm not suggesting that islam is like a bad company, this is just an example)

my story is quite similar to yours. I was born into a christian family and for most part of my life I considered myself a christian. until I encountered Jesus Christ myself...and I realised that there is no such thing as a born-christian. even as a christian for many years, I still ask or encounter critical questions about my own faith...e.g. if God is good why does he allow suffering? etc. and it is such questions that cause me to search for answers and strengthen my faith..

One day when I drove my car I saw an accident that happened on a car with type that same as mine. But I didn't think '"Oh no! my car is unsafe! I should replace it with other type!". I didn't think like this because from my experience in driving my car everyday, I knew that my car was safe if I drove it in safe way. But if I drove it in dangerous way, very possible I would get accident". The problem lies not on the car, but on the driver.

So, is Islam safe?. Yes, if Muslims follow Islam in the correct understanding. But if Muslims follow Islam in incorrect understanding?. ....... Suicide bombing, killing innocent people, oppression, .... just few example of what could be done by Muslims who follow Islam with incorrect understanding.

So, the problem with Islam does not lies on Islam itself, but lies on Muslims. If the problem lies on Islam, must be every Muslim would be radical.

The biggest threat that faced by Muslim world nowaday is radicalism, and the worst habit of Muslims is use Islam as justification. The problem with Islam happen because combination of these two things. Those radical do action that actually against Islamic values, but they quote Qur'an and hadith to make their action look justified by Islam.

I am glad to discuss with you, Dave. :)

[ardianto]

I am not a Muslim who regard Qur'an as book of science and claim 'scientific miracle' in it as evidence that Qur'an is the word of Allah.

For me, Qur'an is a holy book that become my guidance of life. Then, how do I know that Qur'an is the Word of Allah?. I know it when I recite Qur'an because I can feel it with my heart.

[MuslimInshallah]

What would you say to a person who after your thread says -"I have the exact same experience as you. I've read many religious text but none spoke so personally and deeply as ________ (insert your choice of religious text)"

I don't doubt the reality of your experience with the Koran...and personally I admire your effort to read all those text...sometimes I even fall asleep while reading the bible at bedtime :embarrass

but i think a skeptic would say that the Koran is only experientially real to you. It is your personal preference and not necessarilty objectively true. Someone might pick up the Koran and have a completely different experience from you.

May God Bless you with inner peace and harmony Daveyats. I believe you are a true seeker.


If someone has had the same experience as I when reading a text, or admiring the sunset, or looking in wonder at the miracle of a newborn child, or feeling awe before the vastness and intricacy of Creation, or feeling delighted at the simple set of instructions, that when iterated, produces a beautiful tree... if someone has felt this transcendence, then I cannot doubt that it comes from God.


We all have an inner compass that calls us to Him. This is something that the English language obscures, but that is very clear in the Arabic. In English we talk of “not believing” something. Belief is something, apparently, that we can take on, or take off. It can be something instilled in us by the people around us. Like the tooth fairy. But it is something that we can dispose of, like realizing that the tooth fairy is just a pretty story for children.


But in the Qur'an, we learn that we have a Heart. And that it can be covered. The Heart is always there, but it can be covered over. The root k-f-r captures this idea very well. The verb kafara means: to cover, conceal, hide... and to be ungrateful. We can choose to cover our Hearts. He Gave us this possibility. Then we become a person who covers his/her Heart. We become the active participle of the verb (it's an active choice...): kaafir. It is the ultimate ingratitude to our Creator.


The opposite of one who covers, is one who struggles to surrender him/herself to God. It is one who seeks God. How do we seek? With our minds that He Gave us (how many times in the Qur'an God exhorts us to use our reason!). With our Hearts that He Gave us.


We seek God, and then we surrender our Selves to Him. And in so doing, we find inner peace and harmony. We find a safe harbour. (Smile) Of course, this struggle is a continuous one in this life. We have things we need to learn in this life, and the struggle to know God's Will and submit to it (which is actually what is best for us, if only we realized it...), is how we are going to learn these things, I believe.


What things? Well, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, kindness... but also strength, self-restraint, self-sufficiency... all the divine qualities (in Islam, we talk of the 99 Names of God). We need to learn these, I believe, so that we may receive these from him.


I suspect, Daveyats, that you have read the Narnia books by C.S. Lewis? In The Last Battle, you have the dwarfs who are so convinced that they are in a smelly, dark stable, that they cannot see the wonders of Paradise. They are completely sense-less to the Reality around them: they can't taste the wonderful food, nor see the beauties of the world around them,nor hear anything except those things they'd expect in the stable they had formerly been in...


I believe that if we want to be able to receive God's Mercy (for instance), we need to have developed a way to sense this quality, by having a little bit of it ourselves. The more mercy we have learnt how to give, the more we are able to receive it. And conversely... pity the poor soul who had smothered mercy within him/herself. How can he/she be able to even sense His Beautiful Mercy and Compassion?


The root s-l-m yields the verb aslama,and its active participle muslim (we choose and struggle with this actively!).


We have two poles in our lives, it seems to me. We can open our Hearts to Him, or we can cover our Hearts. And it seems to me that there is a little of both in us all.That we live somewhere on a spectrum: some closer to being open,others closer to being covered. And that we move back and forth upon this line during our lives. The more we struggle, the closer to perfect Islam (peace/surrender/harmony/security) we become. And the more we cover our Hearts, the closer to the ultimate pain/loneliness/dissonance/utter loss we become. Hell, if you will.


If you have felt God's immanence, then I believe you. God, after all, can speak to us how He Wishes. And Creation is an expression of His Will. It seems to me that we ought to be able to sense this Will everywhere (if we open our Hearts to seeing it).


Might a skeptic have problems with this? Well, I imagine so! Qualities are not quantities. Science deals in the quantitative. It's a great tool, but that's all it is: a tool.And as the saying goes: if the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems start to look like nails... The scientific method is a way of exploring the universe. And it's a useful method (I use it professionally). But it cannot be used to explore the qualitative.How do you measure the beauty of a rainbow? A child's smile? A symphony? How do you quantify the feeling when your voice blends into a choir? When you smell the sea you have not been near for years?When someone touches you with compassion?


How can you quantify the infinite?


Finally, you stated that someone else might have a different experience with the Qur'an than myself. Well,of course. As the Classical thinkers pointed out: the Qur'an is the mirror of the soul. God Tells us that the Qur'an is a Guide… for those who are looking for Him (Al-Baqarah 2). But if I'm not looking for God, it's not going to mean much to me: my Heart is covered, and I cannot sense Him (al-Baqarah 6-7). If I'm not looking for Him, He'll make my Heart impervious to His Guidance (we couldn't be impervious, if He didn't Give us the choice. Really, all the freedom we have, comes from His Active Support of our choice. If I choose not to find Him, He'll Give me that choice; I won't find Him!).


If I read the Qur'an looking to find something to justify my bad behaviour, or to hit someone with in an argument, or to impress someone with... whatever...I'm not using it for what it was designed.


But if I open the Qur'an looking for how I, myself, can come to some understanding of who/what God IS and find out how I, myself, can reach Him... He Will Actively Support me in my choice. I will find Him.

[Ahmad H]

If you believe that the text of the Torah wasn't changed, and is what Allah revealed, then the implications of that must be considered carefully, as the Torah as it stands says that Nuh alyhissalaam became drunken, and that Lut alayhissalaam committed incest (we seek Allah's refuge from such words or beliefs).

Very true. I overlooked that. Ibn Abbas' statement then must have had some other meaning to it. Jazakallah for the clarification.

[Futuwwa]

I won't dispute that the Quran is perfectly preserved since its creation. Like I said, I don't have much knowledge of Islam and I'm not here to cynically challenge muslims here. I didn't even read the Koran. I'm just asking the theological questions that I might have asked if I were a skeptic. and it just happens that I'm a Christian so there is some comparison between the claims made by our two religions.

Firstly, I'm not blaming God for allowing the bible to be corrupted by men. I'm asking who is the God of the Koran - what is his character and nature - by examining why God would allow the bible to be corrupted.

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.
2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.
3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.
4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? (bear in mind that the Koran came 600 years after the Bible...i read this in another thread) if yes, then what guarantee is there that the Koran does not contain any corruption? It may be perfectly preserved in its current form but what if mistakes were introduced from the very start?

just my critical questions...like I said, its not a challenge to muslims here. just my 2 cts, you can treat it as food for thought or just ramblings from a non-believer if you want.

First of all, this is a straw man. The Islamic position is not that there once was a "true" uncorrupted Bible that then got corrupted. The Quran uses the word "injil" (evangelion, gospel) to refer to Jesus's message and the sum total of the revelation he got, not to any actual physical book that has ever been compiled in any form.

Point 4 would still be valid if one would change the question, more generally, to why God would allow the message of earlier prophets to be lost or distorted but not allow that of Muhammed. Well, Muhammed was the last prophet, so God had to promise that his message would be preserved. There wouldn't be any later prophet to lead back humanity to the straight path if Muhammed's message would end up being lost.

[daveyats]

No... there are many versions of the bible - and I am not referring to translations.

Even the versions have been translated into many languages so you need to work out that when I say "versions" I do mean "versions".

For example, which version do you follow? KJV? NIV? which one? pick any from these "versions" and you will also find them "translated" into other languages.

King James Version (KJV)
New International Version (NIV)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
New King James Version (NKJV)
English Standard Version (ESV)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
New Century Version (NCV)
New English Bible (NEB)
American Standard Version (ASV)
Good News Bible (GNB) / Today’s English Version (TEV)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Today’s New International Version (TNIV)
New English Translation (NET)
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
God’s Word Translation (GW)
Common English Bible (CEB)
New International Readers Version (NIrV)
Easy-To-Read Version (ERV)
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Bible in Basic English (BBE)
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
World English Bible (WEB)
Revised English Bible (REB)
Jerusalem Bible (JB)
New American Bible (NAB)
The Living Bible (TLB)
The Message (MSG)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
The Bishops' Bible
Douay-Rheims Version (DRV)
Tyndale Bible
Geneva Bible

NOTE: A "version" is not a "translation", dig?




No I wouldn't - look, it's really simple - the Torah was literally burned into the rock and handed to Moses pbuh - what did the Jews do to it? Made mince pies out of it.

No holy book has ever been given the promise of God that HE will protect it from corruption except for the Quran.

Scimi

I think you have a bad case of misunderstanding. these are different versions of english translations. Just like the 9 different versions of english translations of the Koran. there are no english equivalents for certain words and expressions in other languages. add to the mix literary styles, new information from archeology...you see why one book can be translated so many ways.

the 10 commandments were carved onto stone tablets not the torah. moses broke them and they were carved again.
it would have taken a hell lot of stone tablets and carving to inscribe the torah on stones lol!

[daveyats]

First of all, this is a straw man. The Islamic position is not that there once was a "true" uncorrupted Bible that then got corrupted. The Quran uses the word "injil" (evangelion, gospel) to refer to Jesus's message and the sum total of the revelation he got, not to any actual physical book that has ever been compiled in any form.

Point 4 would still be valid if one would change the question, more generally, to why God would allow the message of earlier prophets to be lost or distorted but not allow that of Muhammed. Well, Muhammed was the last prophet, so God had to promise that his message would be preserved. There wouldn't be any later prophet to lead back humanity to the straight path if Muhammed's message would end up being lost.

that makes completely no sense at all my friend. are you trying to say that previous revelations were untrue or that previous revelations were recorded with errors

[ardianto]

that makes completely no sense at all my friend. are you trying to say that previous revelations were untrue or that previous revelations were recorded with errors

I've never read Bible, but I often read Biblical verses which appear in Christians articles that written by churches. From what I've noticed, those Biblical verses are true messages from God. But, ...... I also found verses that clearly written by human and added later, like verses about crucifixion.

There is a difference between Christians and Muslims in this matter. Christians wrote something, and added it to Bible. Muslims wrote something, but wrote it down in separate books. Ever heard about "Tafsir Qur'an" (Quranic interpretation)?. This is a book that contain explanation of some verses in Qur'an. Not every Muslim can understand what a verse mean. So, Muslim scholars made explanation without added this explanation into Qur'an. And there are books of hadith, there are books that tell about events that happened during prophet Muhammad time.

Actually, the secret why Qur'an is still original is because Muslims did not add something, or change something in Qur'an, but wrote separate books.

Then the role of God in this matter?. He makes Muslims afraid to change Qur'an. To be honest, if God did not gives this fear, Muslims would change Qur'an too.

[greenhill]

Interesting read....

Just to add a different dimension to this topic, seeing as we are talking about 'corruption' and the Word of God, and the importance of keeping the Book (al Quran) in its original text, here are the results of 'tangent' research on the Book. How does this increase the belief that the Book has not changed? Because if it did, then the results will not be as the attachment below...

(The below diagram comparing of words is only part of it, where the words are referred to in comparison like night is equal to day then the word night will appear the exact number of times as the word day... (I cannot find another one where it illustrates that when something is described as 'not equal to' then the number of times it appears will have the difference of being one less and where the it is described as being different, then the number of times it appears will be 2 or 3 less)).


Read the astonishing result of the words mentioned number of times in Qur'an: (Arranged Alphabetically)

Left Words comparing to Right Words
Aakhirat (Life after this world)	115	Dunia (one name for life)	115
Benefit (Profit)	50	Corrupt (Loss)	50
Deeds	108	Reward	108
Eblees (King of devils)	11	Seek refuge from Eblees	11
Gold	8	Easy life	8
Hardship	114	Patience	114
Humanity	65	Stages of Human Birth	65
Life	145	Death	145
Love	83	Faithfulness	83
Magic	60	Fitnah (Dissuasion, Misleading)	60
Malaika (Angels)	88	Shayateen (Satan)	88
Man	24	Woman	24
Mind	49	Noor (Light)	49
Muhammed	4	Sharee'ah (Muhammad's teachings)	4
Museebah (Calamity)	75	Thanks	75
Muslimeen	41	Jihad	41
People	50	Messengers	50
People who are mislead	17	Dead people	17
Speaking publicly	18	Publicising	18
Spending (Sadaqah)	73	Satisfaction	73
Tongue	25	Sermon	25
Tree	26	Plant	26
Winter	5	Summer	5
Zakat (Muslim Tax pay to the poors)	32	Barakah (Increasing of wealth)	32

And amazingly have a look how many times the following words appear:
Sea 32, Land 13
Sea + land = 32+13= 45
Sea = 32/45*100=71.11111111%
Land = 13/45*100 = 28.88888889%
Sea + land =100.00%

Modern science has recently proven that the water covers 71.111% of the earth, while the land covers 28.889%.

Salat:	5
Month:	12
Day (singular)	365
Day (plural)	30
Sky	7

• The word "month" (shahr) occurs 12 times.
• The word "day" (yawm) occurs 365 times.
• The word "days" (eyyam, yawmeyn) occurs 30 times.
• The words "satan" (shaytan) & "angel" (malak), each occur 88 times.
• The words "this world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (akhirah), each occur 115 times.

This is apart from the obvious 'scientific discoveries' that was already stated in the Quran some 1400 years ago.

Peace :shade:

[Futuwwa]

that makes completely no sense at all my friend. are you trying to say that previous revelations were untrue or that previous revelations were recorded with errors

No. Pay attention and stop assuming. The only thing you should assume is that if something doesn't make sense to you, it's you who are misunderstanding things.

Jesus got a revelation from God. This revelation is called the Injil. The Injil is *not* any of the following things: the Bible, any part of it, or any earlier uncorrupted version of any Biblical text.

[daveyats]

No. Pay attention and stop assuming. The only thing you should assume is that if something doesn't make sense to you, it's you who are misunderstanding things.

Jesus got a revelation from God. This revelation is called the Injil. The Injil is *not* any of the following things: the Bible, any part of it, or any earlier uncorrupted version of any Biblical text.

you are contradicting your own koran and your own fellow muslims my friend.

[MuslimInshallah]

Hello Daveyats,

Perhaps what Futuwwa means is that the Revelation given to Jesus (PBUH), the Injil, did not survive. What is in the New Testament is translated fragments of other people's accounts of what Jesus (PBUH) said and did. It is not God's Intact Word directly in the form and language in which God Transmitted it to Jesus (PBUH).

I hope this helps.

May God Bless you.

[daveyats]

Hello Daveyats,

Perhaps what Futuwwa means is that the Revelation given to Jesus (PBUH), the Injil, did not survive. What is in the New Testament is translated fragments of other people's accounts of what Jesus (PBUH) said and did. It is not God's Intact Word directly in the form and language in which God Transmitted it to Jesus (PBUH).

I hope this helps.

May God Bless you.

if thats the case, it still comes back to the same questions and problems

Was God too weak to ensure the faithful survival of Jesus revelation? if God was too weak to do it with Jesus what guarantee do you have that the final revelation was recorded faithfully by Mohammed's followers?
Did he choose not to care?
Was it unimportant to God?

[Futuwwa]

you are contradicting your own koran and your own fellow muslims my friend.

I'm "contradicting" a strawman of the Quran that you and other Christian polemicists have made up to create a Quranic contradiction where there is none.

Whether I contradict other Muslims, let's say for the sake of argument that I am. So? Does something become the official position of all Muslims just because one Muslim says it?

[daveyats]

I'm "contradicting" a strawman of the Quran that you and other Christian polemicists have made up to create a Quranic contradiction where there is none.

Whether I contradict other Muslims, let's say for the sake of argument that I am. So? Does something become the official position of all Muslims just because one Muslim says it?

Corrupt:

change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.

"a backup copy will be needed if the original copy becomes corrupted"

synonyms:

alter, falsify, manipulate, tamper with, interfere with, tinker with, doctor, distort; More

I really dont know how I've misrepresented Islam because that is the definition of "corruption". you can't corrupt something that wasn't there or something that was untrue to begin with. anyway, for the sake of argument, ill concede that I've created a straw man.

yes, you got me, I confess, these arguments are part of my devious plan to confuse you guys but alas you saw through it....I cannot surpass your intellect and righteousness...i concede defeat! :haha:

[Futuwwa]

Whether what any Muslims de facto mean by "corrupted" in the context of the Bible matches up with some dictionary definition you have been able to drudge up is utterly irrelevant, and has absolutely no implication on the validity or the truth value of any argument made.

[Insaanah]

In the first place, why didn't Allah protect His previous revelations? was he unable to protect it or didn't care that much that men will read a corrupted message?

Firstly, I'm not blaming God for allowing the bible to be corrupted by men. I'm asking who is the God of the Koran - what is his character and nature - by examining why God would allow the bible to be corrupted.

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.
2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.
3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.
4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? [...]

just my critical questions...

Was God too weak to ensure the faithful survival of Jesus revelation? if God was too weak to do it with Jesus what guarantee do you have that the final revelation was recorded faithfully by Mohammed's followers?
Did he choose not to care?
Was it unimportant to God?

Greetings daveyats.

I do find your questions to be couched in language that's not befitting when referring to or describing God, Glorified and Exalted be He.

You see, one can ask, why didn't God protect the previous scriptures?. That is a question.

Then you add, "Was He too weak?", "If He was too weak to do xyz, then abc..." - for which there is no need.

That aside, I notice this theme throughout your question:

apologize because I know I'm being critical with my questioning...

Hope you can treat my questioning as sort of a stress test for the claims of Islam.

just my critical questions...like I said, its not a challenge to muslims here. just my 2 cts, you can treat it as food for thought or just ramblings from a non-believer if you want.

I'm being really critical and skeptical here...

just my critical questions...

These sorts of questions have been asked before, so it's no stress test for Islam as far as Musims are concerned, nor do we see it as somebody putting us to the test etc.

It's akin to asking, why did God need to send Abraham when He'd already sent Noah before?

Why if the Qur'an is perfect, did God not make everyone who reads it Muslim? etc etc.

Indeed, in the Qur'an, we are told similar questions/objections that people asked re: why didn't God do this, could He not have done that? etc:

They say: "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" If we did send down an angel, the matter would be settled at once, and no respite would be granted them. (6:8)

...they say, "Why has there not been sent down to him a treasure or come with him an angel?" But you are only a warner. And Allah is Disposer of all things. (11:12)

And the disbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide. (13:7)

And they say: "Why does this Messenger eat food, and walk about in the markets (like ourselves). Why is not an angel sent down to him to be a warner with him? (25:7)

And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" (25:32)

And they said, "Why was this Qur'an not sent down upon a great man from [one of] the two cities?" (43:31)

So you see, why couldn't God do this, why didn't He do that etc, is nothing new for us.

I'm asking who is the God of the Koran - what is his character and nature

Thank you for asking this very important question.

The God of the Qur'an is the God of the Universe and everything and everybody in it, even if they do not acknowledge Him. He is the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be on them all).

He is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.

He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, spouses, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

He is eternal and does not die. He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, all Wise, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

Now to address the actual question which you seem to be wanting to ask.

God has given humans free will. He doesn't force us to do anything. He revealed the Torah and Injeel, as guidance and light. He didn't force people to protect them. Nor promise to preserve them. Indeed, many Christians and Jews still, despite the books they ended up with, knew that God was One, without partner or son, and that he'd sent prophets, and when Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came, they recognised him as being a Prophet sent by God, and the revelation given to him as being the original message given to their prophets in it's pristine form. And of course, some chose not to believe. Allah in His wisdom knew this would be the last and final messenger, for all mankind, until the day of judgement. Allah promised to preserve this book Himself, which He, in His wisdom, chose not to do with the previous scriptures. Note, not "he couldn't", but he didn't. Allah is "Doer of what He wills" (85:16). "Allah is most knowing of where He places His message." (6:124, part) This book doesn't contain a different message, but it is a continuation, confirmation, and culmination of the original core message contained within the Torah and Injeel and any other previous divinely revealed scriptures, in it's last and final form. "Nothing is said to you, [O Muhammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you. " (41:43) Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was always going to be the last and final messenger for mankind, and the fact that God has promised to protect the Qur'an himself, means it won't get corrupted and therefore no need for any new messenger, because the message is, and will remain intact. He, in His Wisdom, and Foreknowledge chose not to do that with the previous scriptures. Not "couldn't", not was "too weak to", or any other of the words used.

Hope that helps to answer that particular question.

Peace.

[MuslimInshallah]

La haoula wa la quwatta illa billah!

Your analysis and exposition is beautiful, Insaanah. Inspired.

May you always walk in His Shade.

[daveyats]

Insaanah, thank you for that reply. Essentially, you've said God has allowed this corruption to take place and it is part of His will and wisdom, which we do not understand. Firstly i think that is an acceptable reason though one might ask what wisdom is there in such a will? I think the biggest question that remains is, how do you know that the Koran is protected and free from corruption? I mean, how do you know the verses that say it is uncorrupted and preserved are truly from God and not inserted by men?

[greenhill]

I think the biggest question that remains is, how do you know that the Koran is protected and free from corruption? I mean, how do you know the verses that say it is uncorrupted and preserved are truly from God and not inserted by men?

I have to answer this for myself. I believe many people have touched on this question above but it seems to have passed over you. We can look but do not see as much as we can listen but do not hear....

Aside from the claims that Allah has made in the Quran with regards to His protection of the Quran, it seems that you still doubt. I will take it at face value.

So what other matters can illustrate or demonstrate the claim further? One area will be to look at the claims and statement that has been found scattered throughout the Quran. The 'scientific' discoveries made over recent times. You can find these in the net. Many discoveries were made using modern technology that confirms what the Quran has said over 1400 years ago. Are they all 'fluke'? The fact that it probably made absolutely no sense to them then, they did not try to change any statements or verse that described to them things they could not comprehend until such time that the meaning was revealed. This is an obvious sign that it is divine in contents. What other literature can claim this?

To add, my previous post about the mathematical miracles (somewhere above) about the word counts etc, further confirms that no corruption has occured because if it did, then the word counts would have not given the same results. Please read that post.

What I have stated above are just samples of how we can justify what we as muslims believe because the results show that it has been untampered. What is so hard to believe when the findings have pointed to it. Not only looking at it from one dimension, but multiple angles and dimensions.

So we can (as sister insanaah has said), keep up with the question resembling 'Can God create a rock bigger than He can carry? What is your answer? Or is it relevant at all considering the scientific miracles, the mathematical miracles, the prophecies given and historical accounts all point to show that it was not made up but divinely revealed.

My only conclusion is that some people look but do not see and/or listen but do not hear.. I hope you can start to appreciate a bit more the miracles of the Quran.. It is simply amazing. Just open your heart and mind to see its true miracle.


Peace :shade:

[Insaanah]

how do you know that the Koran is protected and free from corruption? I mean, how do you know the verses that say it is uncorrupted and preserved are truly from God and not inserted by men?

Have a look at these two posts to begin with:

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...s-changed.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...tml#post785930

[.muslim girl.]

my brother
Quran is diffferent
if you read it in Arabic language
it's different

that's fist

second :
Allah said if you are not sure that Quran is the word of god
so show me word like Quran , and you can't

it's over

[Ahmad H]

Insaanah, thank you for that reply. Essentially, you've said God has allowed this corruption to take place and it is part of His will and wisdom, which we do not understand. Firstly i think that is an acceptable reason though one might ask what wisdom is there in such a will? I think the biggest question that remains is, how do you know that the Koran is protected and free from corruption? I mean, how do you know the verses that say it is uncorrupted and preserved are truly from God and not inserted by men?

The reason why the Qur'an is kept uncorrupt is because there was only one copy by Hazrat Uthman (ra), where he compiled the Qur'an into one official copy. This official copy is the one which all Muslims memorize.

Every Muslim, the thousands that converted, worshipped Allah with these very same verses they memorized, five times daily, in which they repeated the first chapter in every prayer cycle, Fajr prayer has 4 cycles, Zuhr has 10 cycles, Asr has 4 cycles, Maghrib has 5 cycles, and Isha has 6 cycles, then there is Witr, and at night time there is Tahajjud. In Tahajjud, there are at least 8 cycles which are added as supererogatory prayers.

Add to this, Muslims pray Nafl prayers (voluntary prayers), each of them being 2 cycles each. We can do as many of these cycles as we want. In all of these cycles, the first chapter of the Qur'an is recited, and then after that chapter, we recite a chapter from the Holy Qur'an.

In order for the memorization of the Qur'an to be solidified, Muslims would recite these chapters of the Holy Qur'an on many different occasions. Daily they would recite the Qur'an, and ensure that they knew it. The Holy Prophet (saw) recited Chapter 50 during his Friday sermons, he urged Muslims to recite chapter 18 on Fridays, he urged Muslims to memorize and recite chapter 67 daily for protection from the grave, he said we should recite chapter 36 over the dying people, etc.

There were certain chapters he read on certain prayer cycles, then on 'Eids he would recite chapters 87 and 88, or other Surahs at times. He would recite the long ones and the short ones on various occasions.

Not to mention that the Muslims have continuously recited the verses of chapters to each other and held discussions about them pondering over their meanings. They recite them when they hold prayers for each other, when an Imaam stands in front of them and recites the chapters of the Qur'an out loud. Then the Imaams sit with students who learn the Qur'an and memorize it and ensure the correct and proper recitation is followed. This has continued since the inception of Islam.

The Holy Prophet (saw) told Muslims to make sure they always recite the Holy Qur'an, because it is like a bird that flies away when you don't keep it trapped. (I am paraphrasing here, not the exact words, but just giving the general meaning here). The Holy Prophet (saw) was taught the Qur'an over again each month of Ramadan by the angel Gabriel (as) himself, and then twice on his last Ramadan in this world.

The Holy Qur'an was not just recorded through the oral transmission, it was written upon leave stalks, bones, parchments, etc. Anything that the Muslims who could write could find, they would write it down on there. Hazrat Umar (ra) heard some verses of Chapter 20 which his sister was reading on paper written down when he went in on her and he got angry at her being Muslim. Then he read it from that parchment of paper, and he broke down in tears and exclaimed that such words could not be the word of a man! Then he converted to Islam, even though he was on his way to go and attempt to murder the Holy Prophet (saw) with a sword, of which he poisoned the blade.

The companions (ra), would recite the Qur'an to each other when they gathered together. In fact, I remember reading somewhere that they would recite Chapter 103 to each other when they met, due to its short length. Imagine how many times people meet each other, and yet they recited the verses of the Qur'an!

And how did the Holy Prophet (saw) ensure that he never forgot verses of the Holy Qur'an? He stayed up for the most part of each night, and he would be standing for long periods of time reciting the Holy Qur'an. He would constantly repeat the revelations as time went on.

Don't forget that the whole of the Holy Qur'an was also not revealed all at once. The Holy Qur'an was revealed piecemeal. It was revealed gradually over time, so all the verses that were revealed were recited again and again and they became solidified slogans which the companions (ra) could recite often and in their prayers. The 114 Chapters of the Holy Qur'an were not all at once memorized, they were revealed gradually over a period of 23 years, and during those years the verses related to many matters. The companions (ra) had verses relating to them, verses relating to the battles they fought, verses relating to the fear of punishment from God, verses about Heaven, Hell, the Day of Judgment, the stories of the Prophets of God, other narrations and prayers which God wanted Muslims to know to recite daily and in all kinds of situations.

So besides even the daily prayers, voluntary prayers and night prayers (Tahajjud) - Muslims even recited verses of the Holy Qur'an on their tongues and thus in their hearts on a whim, because there were many prayers which they used to recite from for their spiritual welfare. The Holy Qur'an would flow like water from their tongues, and it would melt their hearts, and make hairs in their necks stand on end.

The Holy Qur'an was never a book at any point in Muslim history, which was relegated to the book shelves to be forgotten. It is a book which Muslims recite from five times daily, reciting a chapter from the Book in over 50 cycles of prayer, meaning potentially 50 different chapters. They would go to sleep reciting them, wake up reciting them, and wake up specially at night to recite them. During Ramadan Muslims try to finish the whole of the Qur'an at least once, the least amount of days allowed to finish it being around 7 days. Thus, in one month, meaning during Ramadan especially, Muslims could finish the Book up to 3 times. If you multiply this by hundreds of times, then that is how many times it was recited in the beginning of Islam, when it was still being revealed, and continuing until even after, and until now. It has never ceased.

Now, compare this to other Holy Books of God. Muslims have sat down to memorize the whole Qur'an. They recite this Qur'an during the prayers lead by the Imaam for the Tarawih prayers, which happens every night. They listen to these verses in that month. Many Muslims have continuously memorized the Holy Qur'an, the EXACT SAME copy as Hazrat Uthman (ra) had compiled and fixed after collecting the Book and bringing it into the order it was supposed to be in.

After all of this, how can anyone doubt that this one Book, which is recited more than any other Book on the face of the earth, has been changed? If the Illiad or the Odyssey, which the West reveres so much was recited to the extent that the Holy Qur'an has been recited, then no one would have doubted Homer's existence and they would have never doubted the authenticity of a text which was taken care of so rigorously.

The Holy Qur'an is a Book which is knowledge that has been known among Muslims to the letter and perfectly to the vowel in pronunciation, by both literate and illiterate Muslims alike. Simply because it is revered so highly and recited so often with great care and love. So much compassion has been given to this Book that no one can claim the same for any other Book in the history of the world. No other religion has had so many illiterates learn one Book as the Muslims have learned theirs. Compare this to the Holy Bible, for which Christians compiled it and remained largely illiterate, but never knew what their Book said from cover to cover.

Christians don't recite their Book five times daily, they don't wake up at night and sacrifice their sleep to recite the Bible, they do not recite the Bible during a holy month as Muslims do, they do not rigorously take care of their text by claiming that there is one authentic text which exists in all copies side by side with the translation of the Book, so that they can ensure that their understanding is correct in the original language in which Jesus (as) spoke. Christians have no means of declaring themselves as having a text which was well-guarded by Allah, because there is not even one verse in the Bible which claims this. Only the Qur'an contains this verse, where Allah said, "Verily, We have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian." (Surah Al-Hijr, Verse 9, Holy Qur'an)

Now who in their right mind can get in between Allah and His Book when He has given the means for its protection? Ultimately, He is its Guardian.

I challenge you to bring a verse of the Bible which says something which is the like of this. Know that you can't meet this challenge. Try as you might, there is no such verse in the Bible claiming Divine protection against change.

[Amat Allah]

بسم الله توكلنا على الله

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
As for the Torah being corrupted, I do not hold that the actual text was corrupted, but only the teachings were.
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Thus, the revelation of the Torah is not considered to be changed by Muslims, just the translation of it.
brother Ahmad H,

The Qur'an states that both the words themselves, and the meanings were also changed. Both types of changes went on. This ayah tells us the the text was also changed.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [2:79]

Changing/twisting meanings is mentioned separately. Concealing also went on. This post has some relevant verses:

Evidence that the Quran is the true world of Allah.

If you believe that the text of the Torah wasn't changed, and is what Allah revealed, then the implications of that must be considered carefully, as the Torah as it stands says that Nuh alyhissalaam became drunken, and that Lut alayhissalaam committed incest (we seek Allah's refuge from such words or beliefs).

I agree with dear sister Insaanah and wanna add that if the Torah wasn't corrupted (and the same thing for the bible here) why would we need the Qur'aan for?

And my respected brother daveyats;

Allah delegated the preservation of the Torah and Gospel to their scholars and monks, based on the evidence of the verse (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily, We did send down the Tawrat, therein was guidance and light, by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah’s Will, judged for the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged for the Jews by the Tawrat after those prophets], for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah’s Book, and they were witnesses thereto.” [5:44].

That it was to be a test for those who had been given the Book – would they play their role in preserving the Scripture? Would they believe in what it said? Would they follow the Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, whom they found mentioned in the Torah and Gospel? Or would they persist in their stubbornness and distort, conceal and falsify?

Then Allah wanted the Quraan to remain the eternal Book and the law that would abide until the Day of Resurrection a preserved source of guidance for all humanity. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)) the Book (this Quran) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures).” [5:48].

So the blame is not on Allah but those who got caught of the beautiful worldly life surrendering themselves to the whispers of satan ; daring to change Allah's word and misguiding their followers...but there will be a day which none will run or hide from the Justice of The Lord of The world; there we all will be standing for reckoning where there will be the truth and only The Truth. May God guide us all and keep us firm on His straight path before the end Aaameeen

We all should be grateful to Allah sending us a preserved book of guidance which can not be changed by our evil selves to keep us on track and whenever we slip then we find it there advising us reminding us and guiding us to Him The Exalted and His love and pleasure.

Allah wrongs not people but we do wrong ourselves by sins and whatever befalls us then it is the price of our hands made and work not because Allah wants to punish us for no reason unjustly...

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Can we Prove Quran is From God?

Muslims have something that offers the clearest proof of all - The Holy Quran. There is no other book like it anywhere on earth. It is absolutely perfect in the Arabic language. It has no mistakes in grammar, meanings or context. The scientific evidences are well known around the entire world, even amongst non-Muslim scholars. Predictions in the Quran have come true; and its teachings are clearly for all people, all places and all times.

Surprisingly enough, the Quran itself provides us with the test of authenticity and offers challenges against itself to prove its veracity. Allah tells us in the Quran:

Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions?


[Noble Quran 4:82]



Another amazing challenge from Allah's Book:

If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it.


[Noble Quran 2:23]



And Allah challenges us with:

Bring ten chapters like it.

[Noble Quran 11:13]



And finally:

Bring one chapter like it.

[Noble Quran 10:38]

No one has been able to produce a book like it, nor ten chapters like it, nor even one chapter like it. It was memorized by thousands of people during the lifetime of Muhammad (peace be upon him) and then this memorization was passed down from teacher to student for generation after generation, from mouth to ear and from one nation to another. Today every single Muslim has memorized some part of the Quran in the original Arabic language that it was revealed in over 1,400 years ago, even though most of them are not Arabs. There are over nine million (9,000,000) Muslims living on the earth today who have totally memorized the entire Quran, word for word, and can recite the entire Quran, in Arabic just as Muhammad (peace be upon him) did 14 centuries ago.

Source:

God Allah - Can We Prove Quran is from God?

above mentioned that Qur'aan still be recited the same at this time of ours since been revealed...the same words the same stories the same rules and legislation ..nothing changed until this very moment and nothing will; while other books have versions, copies, different stories and not even been read in its original language...

God not only challenged us to make a whole book like Qur'aan; He even made it easier telling us to only make one chapter if we can and do you know how many verses the shortest chapter in Qur'aan has? only three verses...now if you would gather all smart and genius people from different languages backgrounds and sides of the world whether speaking Arabic or not and even the best of people speaking Arabic to make only three verses like Qur'aan in its language and wisdom then you won't and will never be able too not even one verse ...not a verse.

Qur'aan Is The Word of God and no creature can be like The Creator (Praise and Glory be to The One Who belongs to Him All Might and Majesty)

Qur'aan has something that other books do not have...evidences ...things wouldn't ever be known before 1400 years without the technology and Modern science...

if you really wanna know about Qur'aan read here:

Allah's Quran - All About The Quran

and this site about the scientific miracles in the Qur'aan and not only that but in the speech of The prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah Be upon him):

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you can search for more by yourself too and you will find so much In Shaa Allah

May The Creator of heavens, earth and all creatures give you the best of this life and the afterlife too Aameen

With all respect in this world, your sister:

Amat Allah.