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Eien
09-12-2014, 02:55 AM
Asalamu Alaikum All!

I have a question, not to be debated, but just to have opinions shared. For women it is (as agreed upon by the majority of scholars) required that they cover all but their hands and face.
I personally do not wear the hijab, and one reason for that (though not the only) is because I believe the hijab in many cases makes women actually more attractive because of the way it highlights the face.
Some may argue that this is why niqab is necessary...

I am aware of the beauty of my hair, so in public I pull it back in a tight bun which doesn't allow its natural curve, full length to be seen.
In this way, the hair does not frame my face in any way.

I'd like honest opinions, which do you find more modest? The typical head wrapping hijab or my hair style choice?

Allow me to also mention that my clothes are not tight/revealing at all, and my necklines do not reveal more than the base of my neck. I also wear no makeup or perfume. (just for reference)

**I openly acknowledge that whatever is said here does not change/have any impact upon what is said in the Quran and sunnah, and that there maybe be more reasons for wearing the hijab that are outside of standard modesty. Only Allah Subhana-wa-t'ala knows for what reasons he has decreed that which he has.
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drac16
09-12-2014, 04:50 AM
:wa:

I praise God that you asked this. You're right inasmuch as there are some disagreements among the ulema and laymen/laywomen as to how far to take it. Some sisters even wear gloves, to cover their hands. It's encouraging to hear that you're taking steps to dress modestly. I don't see how a woman's beauty is relevant to the wearing of the hijab, though. Wearing the hijab, abaya, niqab or any other kind of islamic clothing is, ideally, to be worn out of love for Allah azza wa jall-- not so that you look better/worse to other people.

It's for Him :swt1: alone. When I wear a thobe, I rock it with confidence. Not because I think I look better, but because it's a symbol of my love for God. Yeah sure, I get a few strange looks, but they're probably just not used to seeing a white guy rocking the thobe (or at least that's the excuse I'm going with :shade:).

It comes down to the intention, as with every other thing a muslim is called to do. I encourage you to wear a hijab, but only for the pleasure of Allah. That's not to say it's wrong to want to look nice, but the point is, Allah comes first.
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Eien
09-12-2014, 04:20 PM
Drac16 I'm very glad that you responded, though you neglected to answer my question. ;)

Yes, I try to dress as modestly as necessary, though as I mentioned it is not my only reason for not wearing it. In fact my primary reason is a rather uncommon one, like a fellow sister of mine (though not the same reason). She has had cancer and lost her hair, and she choses not to wear a wig (or aything covering her head) to raise awareness for cancer. I believe it is quite effective and a 'good' reason for not wearing hijab. But you have indirectly helped me a bit personally, by reminding me of the fact that whatever possible reason(s) one may have, good or bad, we must obey Allah Subhana wa ta'ala. That is the most important thing. It is good to be reminded of this, several times a day! :D
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drac16
09-13-2014, 03:22 AM
I don't feel like I neglected the question. In my last paragraph, I said "I encourage you to wear a hijab, but only for the pleasure of Allah". In other words, it is about obediance to Allah azza wa jal. Yes, I consider it more modest for a woman to wear a hijab, but how I personally see the hijab is not relevant to whether it ought to be worn or not. Sorry if I was unclear.
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ardianto
09-13-2014, 02:57 PM
:sl:

My late wife always had argument to not wear hijab, but she hid the true reason. Her arguments included "I already dressed modestly!" and "Which better, those who don't wear hijab but dress modestly? or those who wear hijab with tight dress?". Actually I knew her true reason to not wear hijab, but I decided to wait until she know the truth.

However, something happened. She attacked by breast cancer that later she must got surgery and chemotherapy. She lost her hair. Then after her condition was getting better she could go out, but her hair still to short. So she wore hijab. But I noticed, she looked uncomfortable with hijab. Until that afternoon.

I will never forget that afternoon when I entered our room and I saw her sat in front of dressing table. She wore hijab which combined with her modest dress. I stood behind her for few moment until finally she looked at me and ask "Do I look beautiful with hijab?". I smile at her and said "Yes! you look beautiful with hijab!". She asked me again, and I answered again. Then she smile at me and ask "Do you want me to always look beautiful?". I answer with smile and I looked at her eyes. I saw the eyes of a wife who wanted to be pampered by her husband.

So, in the evening, me, her, and our children went to mall where she shopped Muslimah dress. That was the time when she decided to start to wear hijab as her daily fashion. And still wore hijab after her hair lenght grow normally. She already found the reason why she must wear hijab.

"Do I look beautiful with hijab?". That was the question that always appeared in her mind. Yes, she had many arguments to not wear hijab. But I knew her true reason which she always hide. She was afraid, hijab would reduce her beauty!

Hijab will highlight the face because it cover the hair. And she was afraid, without support from hair, her beauty would be reduced. This was her true reason to not wear hijab, this was the true reason of other women too.

Finally she knew the truth that hijab does not reduce her beauty, but change her beauty into the better beauty. She knew it after I told her in that afternoon. And then she found the good reason why she must wear hijab. Hijab made her look beautiful.

I will never forget that evening after we back from mall. She wore her Muslimah dress and smile at me. Yeah, beauty is in the eyes of beholder, and my eyes said I saw the most beautiful woman in the world.

That was my beautiful memory with my beloved wife before cancer attacked her again. Now she has gone from my side. But I still keep her hijab, her Muslimah dresses as memories of my lovely hijabi, the mother of my children.
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Eien
09-15-2014, 11:33 AM
ardianto, that was a beautiful recollection, thank you for sharing it :)

I originally asked the question out of curiosity, because to my eyes it is sometimes more modest (or at least just as) to wear the hair as I do in a tight bun. However, as drac mentioned whatever should or should not be done must coincide with the ordinance of Allah(SWT). This is the most important thing, and something I am so grateful to be reminded of.

It may go unsaid, but I am unsure of whether it is mandatory to wear the hijab in the first place. I have recieved mixed interpretations, saying yay and nay. My question lies here: In Surat An-Nur, a.31, it says to tell the believing women to cover their bosoms with their khimar rather than 'tell the believing women to wear/observe khimar and cover their bosoms with it'. As I understand, the women were already wearing khimar but their bosoms weren't sufficiently covered. If they were wearing khimar because it was ordained by Allah to do so, then it is clear. Though, if it was simply the dress of the time it needs more clarification. I have recently sought the opinion of scholars versed in all 3 canonical books (Torah, Bible, Quran) to help my understanding. InshaAllah, I will be guided to what Allah requires of me.

If any are familiar with a scholar on the 3 texts (or one that has studied that period in time heavily) that would be willing to discuss with me on this issue, I would appreciate the reference!
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Insaanah
09-15-2014, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eien
I personally do not wear the hijab, and one reason for that (though not the only) is because I believe the hijab in many cases makes women actually more attractive because of the way it highlights the face.
format_quote Originally Posted by Eien
I am aware of the beauty of my hair, so in public I pull it back in a tight bun which doesn't allow its natural curve, full length to be seen.
In this way, the hair does not frame my face in any way.
format_quote Originally Posted by Eien
It may go unsaid, but I am unsure of whether it is mandatory to wear the hijab in the first place. I have recieved mixed interpretations, saying yay and nay. My question lies here: In Surat An-Nur, a.31, it says to tell the believing women to cover their bosoms with their khimar rather than 'tell the believing women to wear/observe khimar and cover their bosoms with it'. As I understand, the women were already wearing khimar but their bosoms weren't sufficiently covered. If they were wearing khimar because it was ordained by Allah to do so, then it is clear. Though, if it was simply the dress of the time it needs more clarification. I have recently sought the opinion of scholars versed in all 3 canonical books (Torah, Bible, Quran) to help my understanding. InshaAllah, I will be guided to what Allah requires of me.

If any are familiar with a scholar on the 3 texts (or one that has studied that period in time heavily) that would be willing to discuss with me on this issue, I would appreciate the reference!
Assalaamu alaikum sister

A couple of points I'd like to make. Throughout history, Islamic scholars, even if of different viewpoints, have all agreed, that hijaab is mandatory for Muslim women, and there has been no disagreement on this. The phenomenon of not wearing hijaab, or of doubting whether it should be worn, or that it is counter-intuitive to protecting ones modesty, is a relatively recent one. The only issue where some have disagreed, is the wearing of niqaab. All have said it is good, but some have said it is not mandatory. Hijaab itself has never been up for debate. The only groups that would differ on this are those who reject the ahadeeth, or "progressive" groups, and their views have now caused doubt in the minds of some unfortunately.

Secondly, as Muslims, we don't take any laws, rules, regulations, from the Bible or the Torah. Our laws, rules, regulations, and guidance, come from the Qur'an, and also, from the sunnah of the Prophet sallallaahu alyhi wa sallam (as preserved in the authentic ahadeeth), both of which go hand in hand, and represent complete and perfect guidance for us.

Have a look at the following links, they should make clear in shaa Allah:

Hijab: Fard (Obligation) or Fiction?
Hijab, Recommended or Mandatory? - Aspects of Worship - counsels - OnIslam.net
Hijab: Cultural or Religious? - Fiqh - counsels - OnIslam.net
Hijab is Obligatory Evidences from the Quran and Sunnah - Islam web - English
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MuslimInshallah
09-15-2014, 08:01 PM
Assalaamu alaikum Eien,


You asked a question about modesty. And it rang a bell with me. So I thought I might share my story with you (with references! I also like to make informed decisions!), in the hope that perhaps it may be of interest to you.


When I was 19 years old, I decided to wear a headscarf. I knew very little about Islam (smile. It was very different about 28 years ago. There was no internet, many fewer Muslims, and virtually nothing in the way of books in the libraries or bookshops that I knew of.). But I did know that Muslim women wore headscarves, and that it was a question of modesty. I didn't at all like to be looked at by men (it made me deeply uncomfortable), and I wanted to be accepted as a Muslim and be part of a community.


Having no woman to help me with this (my Muslim friends actually knew very little about Islam also, and no one wore a headscarf), I improvised. I tried a turban-like look (gosh, I looked odd!), but then, after seeing a cancer survivor in the metro (underground/subway), I decided to wear a kerchief. It covered my hair, but not my neck.


I wore this for about a year. And I felt very uncomfortable. People kept looking at me (there weren't many women wearing headscarves in those days. It was very rare), and they would ask me why I was covering my hair. And I was really unsure as to what to say. Because I didn't feel at all modest with all the attention I was garnering. And it doesn't actually specifically say in the Qur'an to cover your hair (and I knew nothing about the ahadith in those days). So I would duck the question and say that I wore it because I felt like it. But in the end, I took it off. I just felt too weird. So instead, I did like you, and tied my hair back (and kept my loose clothes).


Well, time passed. And my knowledge of Islam slowly grew. I studied Arabic for a couple of years (until I could take no more summer classes), read every serious book on Islam I could lay my hands on (no matter how awful the translation…), obtained various translations of the Qur'an, and finally started to realize that I could slowly read and translate the original. I also started meeting Muslim women who wore scarves. By the time I was 32, I started to have the inner strength to take on the challenge that the headscarf represented. Because it is a huge challenge in our society.


I thought about the headscarf, but I felt torn. Because I wasn't sure if it was really necessary. And because it evoked a subtle revulsion in me.


While pondering this one day, I happened to miss my bus, and another wasn't due for half an hour. So I went into a nearby second-hand bookstore (lovely places!!!), and I “happened” (smile. Allah Sends us what we need...) to come across the Ancient Greek play by Aristophanes, Lysistrata.


It looked rather entertaining. It was about a fictitious revolt of the women of Athens, who want to end the wars that their husbands keep being called away on. And I came upon the following passage:




LYSISTRATA (the leading woman)


...Now in turn you're to hold tongue, as we did, and listen while we show
the way to recover the nation.


MAGISTRATE (a man)


_You_talk to _us!_ Why, you're mad. I'll not stand it.


LYSISTRATA


Cease babbling, you fool; till I end, hold your tongue.


MAGISTRATE


If I should take orders from one who wears veils, may my
neck straightaway be deservedly wrung.


LYSISTRATA


O if that keeps pestering you,
I've a veil here for your hair,
I'll fit you out in everything
As is only fair.


http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7700/pg7700.txt




And a light flashed in my mind. And I remembered a scene from the Disney cartoon Beauty and the Beast, where the main female character Belle is being courted by the local lout and he is offering her the “privilege” of being his wife. Contemplating her dismal future as the overworked, disrespected and silent wife of the lout, she puts on a headscarf. But then she gains her inner strength, and says: No! And simultaneously whips off her headscarf, while detailing her desire for freedom and expression.


I realized that well before the advent of the Qur'an (by at least athousand years), the idea was firmly anchored in Greek culture (which was to be adopted by the Romans, and then across Europe), that a woman was inferior. And that the sign of her inferiority was her veil. If she removed it, then, she was free. She was equal. She could think (the ancient Greeks didn't tconsider women as quite human). She could act.


No wonder I felt a subtle revulsion! I did not want to be stripped of my dignity!


I pursued the question. I next asked myself: well, how is this scarf viewed by Arabs and/or Muslims? Is it symbolically the same? Because through my life experiences, I had learnt that different cultures attach different symbolic meanings to things. An owl, for instance, may be a symbol of wisdom in one culture... and a symbol of stupidity in another!


The internet was now available to search for books on amazon. I scoured this new resource. And found Veil:Modesty, Privacy and Resistance by Fadwa El Guindi. It was very interesting. Covering one's body (for men as well as women, incidentally), at least historically (and somewhat in the present, as there is an ancient Greek influence in post-colonial times, I find), was viewed as a symbol of the upperclass. Of the free woman. Of autonomy, dignity and strength. Of the woman's body as a sacred space.


Now ,turning over these ideas in my mind, I asked myself the next question: What is Allah's Will?


So I started to read a lot of different materials, from the passages quoted from the Qur'an (and multiple commentaries on these passages), to Jeffrey Lang's Even Angels Ask (he has a very interesting perspective. I think you'd enjoy it. He discusses the khimar. And yes, he is a Muslim), to feminist tracts, to booklets in English and Urdu, trying to convince me that as the word “hijab” occurs in the Qur'an, that this meant the Qur'an clearly was stating that a headscarf was mandatory (note: the word hijab means something else than it's modern-day connotation).


The commotion in my head was deafening. I felt like covering my ears and crying out: enough!!!


It was necessary to clear all the noise away, and quietly search for His Will. I read the Qur'an. By myself. And asked Allah for some help.


And the answer was simple: the real question was actually: Is hair a sexual marker? That is, does it play a role in human sexuality? Because if it doesn't, there is no need to cover it. But if it does, I could see no reason not to wear one. Eyes need to see. Hands need to work (actually, forearms, too in some situations, and this has been studied and approved of by scholars in the past). The nose and mouth are debatable. But hair? You can see and sense the world around you perfectly well with a headscarf. You can talk, no problem. You can run marathons. You can do anything you like.


So is hair a sexual marker? Well, there are reams of poetry and descriptive passages in literature of all genres that would certainly lead one to think so. There is also the tendency of women to expend a great deal of effort to highlight their hair in some way (colour, thickness, styles...).


But what about science? And then I came across a study (and I'm very sorry, but I don't have the reference for this, it was just a paper article, and I believe I saw a video clip on this, too. But you can google the topic. There's a lot of info out there on sexual signalling, including regarding a woman's hair). The researchers had noted that when women were attracted to a man, they played with their hair more.


And I asked myself: why is this so?


And it was clear to me that my hair was a sexual marker.


And just as I do not wear make-up, or decorations, or peek-a-boo clothes (outside of marital contexts), I realized that I did not want to have my hair on display. (smile) Actually, I was seized by a sudden, and unexpected, wish to wear a niqab! I really liked the idea of having my own private sacred space! But I knew my society. And I felt that I could push the envelope of acceptability with a headscarf (just!), but that the niqab would evoke too much revulsion.


And so, when I was about 33, I started to wear a headscarf.


And that is my story, Eien. (smile) I hope it may be of some use to you.


May Allah Guide us all.
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hisnameiszzz
09-15-2014, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eien
I'd like honest opinions, which do you find more modest? The typical head wrapping hijab or my hair style choice?
Salaams.

This is just my opinion so if someone does not agree with it, please do not rip my head off.

It really depends on what kind of hijab the female is wearing. If it's just a simple head wrapping hijab, no flashy colours screaming "look at me" and no fancy designs, then I would personally think the head wrapping hijab would be more modest.

However, as you have pointed out also, there are a lot of women that use the head wrapping hijab as an accessory to make themselves look more attractive. Lots of fancy colours which will catch your eye, big fancy patterns, little jangly bits here and there. Now if this was compared to your bun hairstyle, I would say your bun would be more modest.
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ardianto
09-15-2014, 10:50 PM
Assalamualaikum, sister Eien.

Wearing hijab is mandatory for women. This is why my wife wore hijab. This is not about modesty because women don't have to wear hijab if just want to look modest, and wear hijab does not automatically make a woman look modest.

This is not about modesty, but about obedience to Allah.

I wrote the story of my wife because I wanted to show that the cause why there are women who reluctant to wear hijab is because they afraid wearing hijab will reduce their beauty, and it will makes them lose their confidence.

Not everyone knows that there are women who their confidence really rests on their beauty. My wife was one of them. It's because people always praised her beauty since she was child. But then she began to confident to wear hijab after I told her that she look beautiful with hijab.

Look beautiful is not forbidden, as long as look beautiful in correct manner, look elegant that will make people respect, not look sexy.

I know that currently you feel not confident to leave your comfort zone in your current appearance. I know too that your situation is different than my wife. My wife was married woman who older than you, and she lived in Muslim majority country where many women wear hijab. While you are a young woman who live in non-Muslim country. I am sure, you are still unmarried.

Sis, although wear hijab is mandatory, I will not tell you to wear hijab today because I know you still feel hard to start wear hijab for this time. So my advice is, start build your confidence, and wear hijab after you gain your confidence. Believe me, hijab does not reduce beauty.

:)
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Eien
09-16-2014, 12:24 AM
Thank you very much for sharing your personal experience in the thread :)

MuslimInshallah, I too have a repulsion towards the hijab (and the niqab greatly so!) and it's the main reason why I don't want to wear one. I didn't find it necessary to explain my reasons in the thread, but I'd just like to share it with you as thanks (and being a limited member still I can't pm).

Truthfully, I'm a masculine female. I acknowledge this about myself. Whenever I bring this up (especially within the family) it is met with opposition. Especially that of the sort of 'I was created female for a reason, and the only reason for one to be female is to bear children'. ... I believe I was made female for a reason, and I have accepted that it is because of just the opposite. Though, of course, one can not be sure to have knowledge of the intentions of Allah! Had I been born a male, I likely would have had a VERY different life than my current one, and I most likely would have had a normal life with children. Being a female of my nature, I can tell you that by my will I will not give birth to children. ;)

There are things I can live easily with. Needless to say, I don't particularly like sexual attention from males so putting my hair in a bun isn't a problem, save for when it becomes uncomfortable! But wearing the hijab is a symbol of femininity, and with it on I know I'll feel the difference between my male friends and myself. For that reason, drac16 helped me so much when he shifted the emphasis to doing something for the sake of Allah, rather than because of Allah (if you notice the difference). And you helped me as well when you explained your reasoning for not wanting to wear it. Indeed, it seems like there are few females I have to relate to on this!

I am still unsure if it is mandatory, but I feel that I'm likely just going to wear it. Saying 'enough of this, I give!' :D Really, whatever I go through in this life is nothing compared to what I might go through for disobeying Allah azza wa jal!
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MuslimInshallah
09-16-2014, 04:17 AM
May He Bless you Eien.

There are so many things in your reply… I do hope you stay with us on this Forum and get up to the necessary 50 posts to pm. (twinkle) I was considered an awful tomboy as a child. (chuckle) And somehow, I ended up with 6 children!

But I still enjoy some traditionally "male" things. As well as some traditionally "female" things. We're all unique, my dear. Allah made us in a beautiful riot of difference. Mmm, you might enjoy this small, simple song: Flowers are Red https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrNGL2Sm4tQ

Don't believe too much (consider, but don't blindly accept) what you "ought" to do, according to other people. Look to your Heart and meditate on the Qur'an. And do what you think would Please Allah.

And thank you for your kind words.
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ardianto
09-17-2014, 12:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eien
I'd like honest opinions, which do you find more modest? The typical head wrapping hijab or my hair style choice?
Modest is not a kind of fashion style, but an attitude which you are able to maintain your honor and dignity, and it makes people look at you with respect.

format_quote Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
It really depends on what kind of hijab the female is wearing. If it's just a simple head wrapping hijab, no flashy colours screaming "look at me" and no fancy designs, then I would personally think the head wrapping hijab would be more modest.
Whatever worn by a woman, if you can control your gaze and your attitude toward her, then you are modest.
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Ali Mujahidin
09-17-2014, 01:58 AM
To wear or not to wear the hijab? Sorry, but as far as I know, this is not the question to ask. Not if you are a Muslim. Not if you want to practice Islam. The question should, perhaps, be "What is the right way to wear the hijab?"

Consider this scenario.

You choose to become a nurse. As a nurse, you have to wear a uniform. Do you have any say in what your uniform looks like? No. You have chosen to become a nurse. So you wear the uniform of a nurse. There is absolutely no question of whether you look good or you do not look good in the uniform of a nurse.

Ditto for the hijab. You choose to be a Muslim. You are a woman. So you wear the hijab. There is absolutely no question of whether you look good or you do not look good in a hijab.
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