Taking scripture literally

[kkawohl1]

The Holy Books (Qur’an, Torah, Bible) should be used as inspirational stories of the past and should not be taken literally. Allah's/God's intellect is not stagnant; it is as progressive as he wants ours to be.

One must keep an open mind in order to grasp the truth. Fiction and fantasy cloud the mind when one believes that supernaturalism can occur in our universe; that would violate Allah's/God's own laws of nature.

[syed_z]

The Holy Books (Qur’an, Torah, Bible) should be used as inspirational stories of the past and should not be taken literally. Allah's/God's intellect is not stagnant; it is as progressive as he wants ours to be.

One must keep an open mind in order to grasp the truth. Fiction and fantasy cloud the mind when one believes that supernaturalism can occur in our universe; that would violate Allah's/God's own laws of nature.

Greetings,

The Holy Quran is a Book of Guidance, not stories, you'll be surprised to know that Prophet Joseph (a.s) story is the only one that is mentioned as a narrative you can say, rest of the incidents are just part of the actual stories and Allah (swt) in His Pure Wisdom has chosen to mention only parts of those as again the Purpose of the Quran is to provide parables, teach lessons of truth.

As for the Supernatural or basic Laws of nature that we witness every day come from the same One and Only AlMighty. So what you or I might consider as supernatural in fact has its source in the same for He is directing both.

(10:03) Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things.

[kkawohl1]

Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that Allah/God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. Man cannot physically hear God's words therefore any claims of having heard God's words are incorrect. God does not contradict himself, it is man's claims of having heard God's instructions physically that is contradictory.

Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were "messengers of God" whose mind interpreted their spirit's interaction with the Spirit of God according to their conditioning in that time period. Subsequent messengers were Muhammad, Ahmad, and Bah'u'llh. A messenger's spirit's interaction with Allah/God in our present time period, if that person's mind has voided all superstitions, would interpret the "Will of God" somewhat different than what is written in the Holy Books.

There will always be subsequent messengers as long as mankind exists. One must question if the goal was accomplished...& establish therefore that all religions are basically correct. Prophets of past who claimed having a personal contact with God had been inspired by the spiritual existence, thereby interpreting this ecstasy to the best of their ability and applying this wisdom to a time and date when kings, dictators and tribal leaders ruled the masses.


During our short lives here, can we all get along as children of Allah/God?

Everyone’s existence is logical and has a purpose. We are basically tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called earth; that is within an even larger energy bubble that is our universe. Our main purpose in life is to accumulate new positive experiences that will add to the glory of the ultimate spiritual existence that guides the development of the universe like a master planner; call it God, Allah, Jehovah or whatever you wish.

The DNA within us controls our spirituality and is tied to this force, it is converted to spiritual energy when we die and added to the progressive and accumulative energy that is used to create other forces within the universe. The law of nature in the “physical” universe binds everything with this energy or force. It is invisible to us, yet it is the most powerful, ultimate creator, but it nevertheless cannot invade our physical existence.

During our physical existence our spirit can tap into this spiritual energy and receive inspirations and blessings to accomplish inestimable feats that can make our existence very pleasurable.

[syed_z]

Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that Allah/God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. Man cannot physically hear God's words therefore any claims of having heard God's words are incorrect. God does not contradict himself, it is man's claims of having heard God's instructions physically that is contradictory.

Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were "messengers of God" whose mind interpreted their spirit's interaction with the Spirit of God according to their conditioning in that time period. Subsequent messengers were Muhammad, Ahmad, and Bah'u'llh. A messenger's spirit's interaction with Allah/God in our present time period, if that person's mind has voided all superstitions, would interpret the "Will of God" somewhat different than what is written in the Holy Books.

There will always be subsequent messengers as long as mankind exists. One must question if the goal was accomplished...& establish therefore that all religions are basically correct. Prophets of past who claimed having a personal contact with God had been inspired by the spiritual existence, thereby interpreting this ecstasy to the best of their ability and applying this wisdom to a time and date when kings, dictators and tribal leaders ruled the masses.


During our short lives here, can we all get along as children of Allah/God?

Everyone’s existence is logical and has a purpose. We are basically tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called earth; that is within an even larger energy bubble that is our universe. Our main purpose in life is to accumulate new positive experiences that will add to the glory of the ultimate spiritual existence that guides the development of the universe like a master planner; call it God, Allah, Jehovah or whatever you wish.

The DNA within us controls our spirituality and is tied to this force, it is converted to spiritual energy when we die and added to the progressive and accumulative energy that is used to create other forces within the universe. The law of nature in the “physical” universe binds everything with this energy or force. It is invisible to us, yet it is the most powerful, ultimate creator, but it nevertheless cannot invade our physical existence.

During our physical existence our spirit can tap into this spiritual energy and receive inspirations and blessings to accomplish inestimable feats that can make our existence very pleasurable.

Thank you very much. I don't agree with part about persons you mentioned Ahmad and Bahullah, however all Prophet's of Allah (swt) you mentioned taught the same, whether Abraham,Jesus or Muhammad (saw), compare their teachings and see for your self.

As for your detailed explanation about the spiritual existence, I don't understand what is it your trying to tell exactly?

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[kkawohl1]

Thank you very much. I don't agree with part about persons you mentioned Ahmad and Bahullah, however all Prophet's of Allah (swt) you mentioned taught the same, whether Abraham,Jesus or Muhammad (saw), compare their teachings and see for your self.

As for your detailed explanation about the spiritual existence, I don't understand what is it your trying to tell exactly?

There will always be subsequent messengers as long as mankind exists. No man can dictate to, or restrict Allah's wishes or desires. If Allah desires to send new messengers, he will do so regardless of what is written by fallible men in their Holy Books.

The spiritual existence has been given a name by mankind. Some call him/it God, Allah, Jehovah etc.

[kkawohl1]

Greetings,

The Holy Quran is a Book of Guidance, not stories, you'll be surprised to know that Prophet Joseph (a.s) story is the only one that is mentioned as a narrative you can say, rest of the incidents are just part of the actual stories and Allah (swt) in His Pure Wisdom has chosen to mention only parts of those as again the Purpose of the Quran is to provide parables, teach lessons of truth.

As for the Supernatural or basic Laws of nature that we witness every day come from the same One and Only AlMighty. So what you or I might consider as supernatural in fact has its source in the same for He is directing both.

(10:03) Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things.

Six days for Allah could be six trillion years for us.

God set the laws of nature, which assert that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be incorrect. It is a doctrine and proclamation that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring. (Transcendology) If God were to interfere in the natural existence he would violate his own infallible laws of nature, which is an impossibility. God created man and the universe and guides its development like a Master Planner, without any physical interference.

[MuslimInshallah]

Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that Allah/God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an.

...

There will always be subsequent messengers as long as mankind exists

...

Our main purpose in life is to accumulate new positive experiences that will add to the glory of the ultimate spiritual existence that guides the development of the universe like a master planner; call it God, Allah, Jehovah or whatever you wish.

Greetings kkawohl,

Actually, Muslims believe that it was the angel Gabriel who relayed the message of the Qur'an to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings upon him). But yes, we believe that it is God's Word to humanity. And (smile) as God Himself said there would be no further messengers, we trust that this is true.

Mmm. About adding to God's Glory. God has absolutely no need of us. He Created us out of His Compassion.

May you enjoy your visit to this Forum, and may God Guide you ever closer to Himself.

[kkawohl1]

My spiritual encounter guided me to compose the following poem.

The Intelligent Designer proclaims

I am the Intelligent Designer;
I am what mankind has decided to call God.
I did not come from nowhere.
I play no magic tricks on man.
I did not create the earth by casting spells.
I had a humble beginning the same as man;
My beginning was at the dawn of spirituality.
My wisdom grows as more spirits unite
After the cessation of life after much physical strife.
Throughout time I have been named God,
Allah, Jehovah, The Great Spirit, and many more.
I do not judge man for his vanity or naivety
To be the one who claims to please me the most.
I am easy to please. I require very little.
I only want you to do what is best for mankind.
I will bless you and wish you well.
I will inspire your mind and you will
Accomplish the unfathomable.
I require no worship. I need nothing from man.
I am self-sufficient. I am spirit.

Develop your spirit wisely, the best that you can.
Live your life for the betterment of man.
Your spirit will soon be with me and then
Together we will see and traverse the universe.
There are many wonders to behold,
Your spirit will soar.
You will partake in all the wisdom
That has been gathered from the beginning of time.
The stars will be your playgrounds.
You can play with the animals,
Be with your loved ones,
Listen to the greatest opera,
Stage or musical performances,
Or you can just relax next to a bubbling brook
And enjoy the scenery.
You feel no pain, despair,
Heartache, or negative emotions.
You are now One with me.
You are with the Intelligent Designer
You are with God my child.

[syed_z]

Six days for Allah could be six trillion years for us.

God set the laws of nature, which assert that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be incorrect. It is a doctrine and proclamation that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring. (Transcendology) If God were to interfere in the natural existence he would violate his own infallible laws of nature, which is an impossibility. God created man and the universe and guides its development like a Master Planner, without any physical interference.

Thank you. Actually MuslimInshalla has already made it clear what Quran says about the revelation, so nothing further to be added.

Proof of our Belief in the system of revelation and spiritual truths is the Quran. What is your proof for all that you have typed?

Allah (swt) has informed us several places in the Quran that the nations of the past created their own beliefs but had no hard evidence to back it to show that it truly comes from the AlMighty Lord God Himself. So I would ask you to bring a revelation that informs you of all of what you've mentioned.

[kkawohl1]

Claiming that because it is written in the Qur'an...is not proof.

As I stated above:
Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that Allah/God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. Man cannot physically hear God's words therefore any claims of having heard God's words are incorrect. God does not contradict himself, it is man's claims of having heard God's instructions physically that is contradictory. Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were "messengers of God" whose mind interpreted their spirit's interaction with the Spirit of God according to their conditioning in that time period. Subsequent messenger was Muhammad...but since Allah's wishes cannot be restricted, we will have other messengers. Peace.

[syed_z]

Claiming that because it is written in the Qur'an...is not proof.

As I stated above:
Christians, Jews and Muslims ALL claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that Allah/God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an. Man cannot physically hear God's words therefore any claims of having heard God's words are incorrect. God does not contradict himself, it is man's claims of having heard God's instructions physically that is contradictory. Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were "messengers of God" whose mind interpreted their spirit's interaction with the Spirit of God according to their conditioning in that time period. Subsequent messenger was Muhammad...but since Allah's wishes cannot be restricted, we will have other messengers. Peace.

Thanks for explaining that once again.

Proof of Musa (a.s) and Muhammad (saw) receiving revelations is to be found in their scriptures and Jesus (a.s) as well, my question is where is your proof for what you have concluded that their mind interpreted this spiritual interaction and thought it to be God's word?

Our proof of our Belief that revelation came down to all the Prophets through the medium of Angel Gabriel (a.s) is explicitly mentioned in the Quran. Where is your proof for that belief of yours?

[Signor]

Hello kkawohl1

Allah's wishes cannot be restricted, we will have other messengers

I would like to know more,Do you have some knowledge about them?

[M.I.A.]

i think im going to walk around in a circle again.

by your own understanding you would want religion to take progress and knowledge into account, a couple thousand years of developing has changed our understanding of the universe.

and yet you have to understand that give it a couple hundred years and you wont recognise the place. ours is by no means a complete understanding.


but you would have a hard time thinking it was not.

to think there was anything other than flesh and bone is like disregarding the whole point of the thing... probably.

[Hulk]

Do you even know the basis of the muslim's belief in Islam? If you don't, then why are you even trying to tell muslims what and how to believe?

You're talking about claims and proofs and at the same time you make all these claims without actually providing any proof for your own claims.

The DNA within us controls our spirituality and is tied to this force, it is converted to spiritual energy when we die and added to the progressive and accumulative energy that is used to create other forces within the universe.

Ok, I know a Star Wars reference when I see it.

[kkawohl1]

Faith in a declaration claiming a revelation isn't exactly proof. It may very well be true but there can never be physical proof because it is a supernatural interaction between man's spirit and the spirit of God/Allah. No one can see man's spirit, touch it, photograph it; it is supernatural. No man can physically hear the supernatural. If the spirit hears it, it must still be translated by a preconditioned mind which is like a 2 year old child translating his father's wishes.

Spiritual energy is expended from the body at death; it is transmitted from the life form and received by another, the spiritual existence. There is proof that the life that has existed is no longer there, but there is no proof where this energy has gone. In the same way, there can never be proof of a spiritual interaction; so all faith is belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another. All religions and religious beliefs were thereby formed. The declarant who has had a true spiritual interaction does not need faith in God; he knows that God, the spiritual existence is a reality.

Any physical action required by Allah/God is a fallacy. God is spirit and has never meddled in the physical affairs of mankind; it would be contrary to his own laws of nature.

[Hulk]

Proof for what? No one is presenting something to you asking you to believe it. We are muslims and the Quran is our book of guidance. The one making claims here is you so if anything the burden of proof is on you. Is there any reason why we should accept your claims?

[kkawohl1]

Do you even know the basis of the muslim's belief in Islam? If you don't, then why are you even trying to tell muslims what and how to believe?

You're talking about claims and proofs and at the same time you make all these claims without actually providing any proof for your own claims.

Ok, I know a Star Wars reference when I see it.

Most religions have more interesting science fiction hallucinations than Star Wars. :exhausted

IMHO, all religions need to bring their beliefs into the 21st Century. Anyone can believe whatever they wish and as long as a religion abides by and promotes peace, love and compassion, they are all equally valid.

Do I even know the basis of the Muslim's belief in Islam?

I know that Mohammad was persecuted much in the same way Jesus was persecuted, both suffered for their religious beliefs. What makes their situations so unique is that they both lived devoted to the same God, the God of Moses, and Abraham. Mohammad claimed to have been brought to heaven by the Angel Gabriel; in heaven he reportedly saw Abraham, and Jesus. Mohammad held Jesus as a much-respected prophet of God. When Mohammad began preaching Jews persecuted him for his strong belief in Jesus and his teachings. Mohammad repeatedly was prosecuted for his faith in God and his backing of Jesus.

Mohammad’s’ last public sermon decried that Muslims, and followers of all religions with the belief in the one true God, should live in brotherhood and tolerance. Soon after this sermon Mohammad passed on. So what has happened to this message? Have the politically driven Islamic leaders of today hijacked and *******ized a religion, and its religious decree, meant to preserve peace and harmony? How can Mohammad have preached so much about tolerance yet radical Muslim leaders of today spout nothing but hate and hate filled rhetoric?

If you read about Mohammad’s teachings you will see that he was disgusted in issues that involved persecution, or discrimination based on religion. Conversely, you have some Muslim leaders around the world crying out that Jews should be destroyed, or Christians should be obliterated.

Don’t most Muslims remember that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are all considered faiths of the book ? Don’t they see how similar our beliefs are? Have they forgotten how hallowed Mohammad held Jesus and his teachings? How can these Radical Islamic individuals spout so much hatred in the name of Islam when it is so contradictory to its belief base? I ask you now, who is the real enemy of Islam, is it the brothers and sisters of believers or is it the Imams, and Islamic Presidents, who use Islam as a sword when it cuts to their needs?

I love Muslims and their beliefs; I despise the leaders who hi-jack this religion to further their own needs and desires. It’s time the Muslim populations take a look at the real teachings of Islam and then ask themselves, who is the real enemy of Mohammad’s’ teachings?

[kkawohl1]

Proof for what? No one is presenting something to you asking you to believe it. We are muslims and the Quran is our book of guidance. The one making claims here is you so if anything the burden of proof is on you. Is there any reason why we should accept your claims?

Can our subconscious, our spirit interact with a spiritual existence or is this just our imagination going haywire? Please consider the following.

In 1956, when I was fifteen years old, I had pneumonia and thought I was dying. My father took me to a doctor who gave me a penicillin injection and recommended immediate hospitalization. We had no medical insurance or money, so my father took me home to recuperate. I remember the drive home vividly. Every breath was painful and my chest felt as though a great weight was upon it. I watched cars and trucks drive by and wondered how people could make long-term plans when life was so unpredictable.

Several nights later, it felt as if my spirit left my body and it experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I sensed great peace, tranquility and ecstasy, a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone. There were some of my deceased acquaintances and relatives and many of the prophets of the bible and historical people I had read about were also there. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out with spirits engaged in mental interactions like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.

When I told my father who was a preacher of the Lutheran Faith about my experience he dismissed it abruptly and told me that this "supreme spirit," this God that my spirit had witnessed, was not the God of the bible and he told me to pray for my salvation. We never talked about it afterwards.

Since that time I never really gave it much thought until the New York World Trade Center tragedy on 9-11-01. I went into deep meditation. I wanted to find an answer to how some misguided individuals could believe that their actions of killing other people would be rewarded with their soul's eternal life with God.

I then had a couple of experiences similar to the one I had at age fifteen of my spirit communicating with the "ultimate spirit." (God, Allah or whatever one desires to call him/her/it) My spiritual experiences seemed to last throughout the entire night. My spirit observed the entire history and the evolution of the universe and our varying perceptions of God, as if in a fast-forward film.

The experiences I encountered after the 9-11 tragedy helped me come to the following conclusions:
1. In this Age of Technology, our 21st Century, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are a contributing cause toward terrorism, killings and wars between nations.
2. Belief in a deity who causes catastrophes, punishes people and created the universe out of nothingness as if by magic was brought about by passed-on stories and superstitions. These thought processes would need to be reassessed and brought up to date.
3. Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this so-called deity, our God, was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era.

Some will say that my personal experience of oneness with a supreme spirit is nothing but a dream or a vivid imagination. It doesn't matter whether you accept or totally reject my story. What does matter is that we evolve to a point whereby we can encourage open-minded people to offer feedback on how our religious beliefs can be brought into the 21st century.

[greenhill]

Mohammad’s’ last public sermon decried that Muslims, and followers of all religions with the belief in the one true God, should live in brotherhood and tolerance. Soon after this sermon Mohammad passed on. So what has happened to this message? Have the politically driven Islamic leaders of today hijacked and *******ized a religion, and its religious decree, meant to preserve peace and harmony? How can Mohammad have preached so much about tolerance yet radical Muslim leaders of today spout nothing but hate and hate filled rhetoric?

As the saying goes, -islam is perfect, but the people are not. Despite the faith and the guidelines and the laws, people are people, all tempted by the same things, see the same things, want the same things. The only difference is how they go about it. Even better, to define the intention behind their action in the first place (as that is the predetermining factor) for how the 'reward' is to be given. If I give away to charity so that I may publicise my generosity or I give it away quietly because I want to help. The rewards are different for both.

Unfortunately, the the 'good nature' that people should follow (to promote peace and kindness etc) are not truly followed by those who aspire to leadership. Rather than 'selfless and fair' people being elected, we have 'selfish and dominating' people reaching the top. and the saying about 'nice guys finishing last' has great bearings with regards to what happens. Hence the what you are saying above....


:peace:

[saif-uddin]

Christianity and Judaism were never revealed by God,

there is no such claim in the books of the Jews and Christians either, (Neither the Bible nor the Jewish Torah) make any such claim,

these religions are unfortunately concocted.

[kkawohl1]

Christianity and Judaism were never revealed by God,

there is no such claim in the books of the Jews and Christians either, (Neither the Bible nor the Jewish Torah) make any such claim,

these religions are unfortunately concocted.

ALL religions claim that theirs is the correct one...and many originators have probably correctly claimed spiritual interaction....but, physically seeing or hearing God, angels, devils etc. is wherein concoctions arose....that is against God's own laws of nature.

[saif-uddin]

ALL religions claim that theirs is the correct one...and many originators have probably correctly claimed spiritual interaction....but, physically seeing or hearing God, angels, devils etc. is wherein concoctions arose....that is against God's own laws of nature.

perhaps I did not make my self Plain,

The Quran states Explicitely that Allah ta'ala revealed the Religion of Islam, and that all of the Anbiya (alayhi wa salam) from Adam down to Muhammad :saws: are Muslims,

the Bible of the Christians or Jews have no such claims,

Nowhere in their Books does God All-Mighty claim that he Revealed these two Religions (Judaism & Christianity)

rather interesting to note,

regards

[kkawohl1]

The Quran states Explicitely that Allah ta'ala revealed the Religion of Islam, and that all of the Anbiya (alayhi wa salam) from Adam down to Muhammad :saws: are Muslims,

the Bible of the Christians or Jews have no such claims,

Nowhere in their Books does God All-Mighty claim that he Revealed these two Religions (Judaism & Christianity)

rather interesting to note,

regards

Any Holy Book claiming that God All-Mighty revealed a religion does not necessitate the absolute truth...it is the spiritual recipient's perception of God All-Mighty's truth....yet, ALL men are fallible. And again, any spiritual interaction has to be translated by a preconditioned mind, so its translation is determined differently in different time periods.

[Hulk]

kkawohl1, just because you do not know why Islam is the truth does not mean that it is it is not the truth. As I mentioned before, you don't even know what the basis of our beliefs are.

You have been making plenty of claims in this thread, and yet nothing to back up your claims.

We are muslims and the Quran is thus our Holy Book and we believe in it. You are trying to persuade us to accept your claims instead but yet you cannot offer any good reasons as to why we should. Please point out to me where someone in the thread says that "We should believe that a book is from God based solely on the fact that it claims to be from God.", otherwise you're merely arguing against something nobody said.

[Eshai]

Man cannot physically hear God's words therefore any claims of having heard God's words are incorrect.

In order to know what is incorrect in this regard, you must know what is correct.
For how can you know what is wrong if you don't know what is right?
And for you to assume that you know what is correct and right equally assumes that you understand and know the nature of God.

That is quite the proclamation.

What is more likely true: that you understand the nature of God and have equal bearing as did the prophets, or that you, like the rest of us, can really only speculate as to the nature of God? Let's face it: only God understands God. Therefore, how can you say what is incorrect regarding how God delivers his messages, when you yourself do not understand God's nature?

[kkawohl1]

Hello Eshai,

We, as mere mortals, attempting to understand Allah/God is like a 3 year old child attempting to comprehend his father's intellect. God has given us free will to do as we please and we will be rewarded if we live righteously.

Religions definitely have their useful purposes as long as they promote peace, love and compassion. Any religion that says one can kill another person is definitely wrong and 100% against the will of their peace loving Allah/God...even if it defies what is written in the Holy Books...they were written by fallible men and should not be interpreted literally.

[link removed]

The picture shows the entire history and the evolution of the universe and peoples varying perceptions of Allah/God; the beginning of physical rational life in the universe, the bonding of the first two souls that was the beginning of a spiritual unity; the development of mankind and man’s first perception of God from the story of Adam & Eve; Abraham & Moses, their quest into spirituality, their interaction with God and the beginning of Judaism; God’s interaction with Jesus & his life and death; the beginning of Christianity & the senseless killings in the Crusades; God’s interaction with Muhammad, the beginning of the Islam faith & the Arab struggles. The Transcendologist’s spirit also witnessed the Twin Towers tragedy of 9-11-01.

[Eshai]

Well, personally I do not know what is true when it comes to what God wants. I can't say anything about God with 100% certainty. But I believe that if God wants to do something, God will do it, whether or not we think it is good or bad, right or wrong.

[Hulk]

Seems that your position is not exactly one that is based on logic.

You say that you believe we will be rewarded if we live righteously. This then begs the question as to what is right? How do you know that what you think is right is in accordance to what God commands? You want to talk about peace, love, compassion. Can there be true peace when there is injustice? Oppression? Your idea of belief is one that is not rooted with the nature of this world.

You want us to dismiss our Holy Book as something that is only to be taken "lightly", and yet you cannot offer any proper reason to do so. Trying to back up your claim with another claim is a fallacy.

[kkawohl1]

Hello Hulk,

We are all energy bubbles living within a larger energy bubble within this universe. Allah/God is the supreme energy. When one lives righteously, upon our physical demise the energy within our spirit is transmitted, cleansed (born-again) and then received to be a part of God where our spirit can operate individually or in unison and access all of the wonders and knowledge of the universe.

A deserving (clean) spirit consists of ethics, morality, good deeds, kindness, consideration for and helping others; being "righteous" insures the survival of the soul. The conscience is guided by its capacity to disseminate between pure and improper acceptable social norms. A determination is made by the conscience to abide by either the pure or proper, or to stretch the norm.

Deeds contrary to purity eventually anesthetizes the conscience and lines of communication with the spirit and God are severed. Evil is not adaptable to, or compatible with Pure Intelligence. The cultural norm deduces acceptable proper behavior. If one lives thereby, the conscience is clear and no deity in the spiritual realm will judge or condemn anyone.

People often believe they will be condemned if they do not believe a certain way. When peoples' concept of God is flawed, corrections, truth, logic and common sense thereof must eventually prevail. Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled God for past millennia as one who interferes with the natural forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who disobey his bidding.

The God of our ancestors had to be humanized in order to have the masses adapt the thought processes to that time period. God does not change with the times but our perception of who God is should change as societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. God, the Ultimate Spirit consists of Supreme Purity, Pure Intelligence, Pure Logic, etc., is not encumbered by human attributes and has no needs, or a desire to be worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else that we have to offer.

Human characteristics are to exercise upon others: power, control, dominance, destruction, punishment, revenge, and judgment. Everyone is individually and personally totally responsible for his own soul's destiny. The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths are due to human frailties, stupidity or imperfections and are not God's doings. God, exists in a spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything on earth or in the universe.

God is interested in and is involved in humanity, but does not interfere in any way in our physical lives. God guides the development of the universe and everything thereon like a Master Planner. Our relationship and interaction of our spirit with the Spirit of God is for our, not God's benefit.

God Will Not Condemn Anyone

Our intelligence compared to God is like that of a 2-year-old child. God will make allowances for our ignorance.

It doesn't matter to God whether we believe that God is/was:

1. Created by the spirit and soul and evolved to be the supreme intelligence.
2. The beginning, always was, came out of nowhere and created the heavens
and earth.
3 The one supreme ruler who dominates the universe.
4. Called God, God Almighty, Jehovah, God of Abraham, Allah or whatever.

It doesn't matter to God whether we:
1. Think that Jesus is God or a prophet.
2. Believe that the Bible or the Qur'an is the word of God or man.
3. Eat pork, dress or pray a certain way.
4. Are straight, gay, white, black, or whatever.

It is of no importance during our physical life whether God exists or not if one so chooses. Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference to God. Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul.

Our life on earth is to prepare us and to give us examples of the hereafter. Everything is progressive and accumulative. We are here to accumulate experiences of feelings, the beauty of every organism that surrounds us, the landscape that adds to our perception; then we can begin our next journey. We should live our life to its fullest. One hundred years from now, almost every single person alive today will have died. Several billion people wiped off the face of this earth. Our life is but a blip on the radar screen of time.

[Insaanah]

Greetings kkawohl1

I'd just like to draw your attention to the forum rules, which state:

15.Promoting Religions other than Islam
While interfaith discussions are allowed promoting another religion is not allowed on the discussion board. This discussion board was created to promote Islam, not another religion. There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam.

http://www.islamicboard.com/faq.php?..._liforum_rules

At the moment, there is a lot of promoting your own theories as the truth, and anything contrary to that, as being wrong. You are welcome to ask questions on Islam to help you understand Islam better, but I would request you from hereon to refrain from promoting your own theories. Thanking you for your understanding.

[kkawohl1]

Greetings Insaanah,

I have always attemted to keep the subject of my postings about “Taking scripture literally” and have never promoted any religion other than Islam.

Is it against your policy for anyone to question whether the Qu’ran should be taken literally? If that is the case and you wish me to move on to other discussion boards on the Web, even though I truly enjoyed the interaction here, I will oblige and wish to thank everyone for their courtesy. Peace.

[Eshai]

User Insaanah was not telling you to leave. She was saying you are not welcomed to push your beliefs on those here. In your posts, kkawohl1, you are asking very few questions (if any) and simply making your own proclamations (this is proselytizing). I would urge you to re-read your posts and consider the perspective of those who read it who may not agree with you.

Consider what is "right" and what is "wrong" from the individual perspective. The fact that we, as individuals, may like something does not make it good for us. For instance, indulging in mind altering drugs, so I have been told, is a very pleasurable experience. But they are not good for the body. So however "right" something may feel, or seem, it is not necessarily good, and may be entirely wrong.

Our intelligence compared to God is like that of a 2-year-old child.

And yet you speak as though you truly understand what God wants, and what God does and does not care about. Yet you are as a 2 year old child, who cannot understand the greater implications of God's commands. And your situation may be even more precarious, as you appear to have no interest in heeding any command God would give, and instead rely on your own 2 year-old judgement which you mistakenly think to be right because... it feels right.

I agree with Hulk. You are not being logical or rational in the slightest.

If you have interest in speaking about the subject of taking certain things in the Qur'an literally/figuratively, then perhaps you should ask questions concerning the verses you have questions about.

[Insaanah]

kkawohl1,

It is entirely possible to have fruitful and beneficial discussions without repeatedly asserting one's own beliefs as being correct. Nobody here wants you to leave. I suspected you may not have seen the rules so thought it might be beneficial for attention to be drawn to them.

Peace.

[kkawohl1]

And yet you speak as though you truly understand what God wants, and what God does and does not care about. Yet you are as a 2 year old child, who cannot understand the greater implications of God's commands. And your situation may be even more precarious, as you appear to have no interest in heeding any command God would give, and instead rely on your own 2 year-old judgement which you mistakenly think to be right because... it feels right.

I agree with Hulk. You are not being logical or rational in the slightest.

If you have interest in speaking about the subject of taking certain things in the Qur'an literally/figuratively, then perhaps you should ask questions concerning the verses you have questions about.

I love Muslims and their beliefs; I despise the leaders who hi-jack this religion to further their own needs and desires. It’s time the Muslim populations take a look at the real teachings of Islam and then ask themselves, who is the real enemy of Mohammad’s’ teachings? Do I believe that certain things in the Qur'an should not be taken literally/figuratively? Can any rational being really believe that a peace-loving Allah would condone killings?

[Eshai]

While I am interested in what some of the more learned members here have to say about these verses, I have a feeling that in some of these verses were written in a specific historical context. This is certainly something that I plan on studying in detail before making any conclusive statements.

[greenhill]

I am not learned, but yes, some of them have historical context to them. I remember them as verses revealed during battles.

[kkawohl1]

ANYONE can have his or her spirit interact with the Spirit of Allah/God if that is his or her greatest desire to the exclusion of everything else. They must first prepare their mind via intense meditation by placing it in a state of stasis.

All “Holy Books” were written about someone whose spirit interacted with the spirit of God. The mind translation of this spiritual interaction depended on the prior conditioning of that person; hence you have various religions all claiming to live by the Word of God. In reality, it’s the word of fallible men attempting to interpreting the mind of God.

Spiritual interactions are dumbfounding and immensely puzzling. After the spirit of God interacted with the spirit of Jesus during his baptism, it took Jesus 40 days to analyze and interpret its meaning.

My own spiritual journey has revealed to me that God is the ultimate pure love and wants only the best for mankind. Everyone is personally responsible for the survival of his own soul and this is assured by attempting to live righteously. Evil anesthetizes the conscience/soul and continued evil eventually kills the conscience/soul.

Is it the power of persuasion or human power how world peace will eventually be attained? Will mankind awaken before it destroys itself?

Namaste

[Signor]

Hello kkawohl1

Are you a devotee of Hare Krishna temple?You very much sounds like one?

[kkawohl1]

Hello kkawohl1

Are you a devotee of Hare Krishna temple?You very much sounds like one?

Negative, I am not affiliated with any religion...I am a simple Transcendologist who had a spiritual journey.

[Hulk]

The concept of transcendental unity of religions is not in line with the beliefs of Islam, you are free to believe whatever you want but promoting such ideas is against forum rules and I hope that you will respect that.

[kkawohl1]

I am not learned, but yes, some of them have historical context to them. I remember them as verses revealed during battles.

Since terrorist leaders use the above Qur'an verses to hi-jack this religion in order to further their own needs and desires rather than seeing them in a historical context, should the Qur'an then be interpreted literally or should it be used for historical referencing?

[ardianto]

While I am interested in what some of the more learned members here have to say about these verses, I have a feeling that in some of these verses were written in a specific historical context. This is certainly something that I plan on studying in detail before making any conclusive statements.

There are "asbabun nuzul" (cause of revelation) behind many verses. It's related to specific event that happened in that time.

[h-n]

Since terrorist leaders use the above Qur'an verses to hi-jack this religion in order to further their own needs and desires rather than seeing them in a historical context, should the Qur'an then be interpreted literally or should it be used for historical referencing?

You say that you believe in God, but then go on to say that you don't think he created the world in a short space of time, you say that its up to people how they wish to live and do well and that God has nothing to do with this journey. You say you become part of God-which is abhorrent to us. You say that the Prophets made up religion and so that is why we are wrong. Then you say that its up to us to live in harmony without discrimination.

You make broad statements of being good, when this includes in Islam to forbid evil and to enjoin what is good so we believe-

-in the death penalty for murder (do you disagree with this??)
-we believe in being good is not being lewd, which is to dress modestly and to not have sex outside of marriage
-to be good is to worship God and to thank him for everything


God is All Powerful, and he has created us, as he SPECIFICALLY CREATED US, he also wanted us to do well in our limited existence which we need God's help to get our food, to have our home, to overcome illnesses if we can.

God has chosen Prophets where he has given direct message to them, so the following examples are treated as fact;-

- Prophet Noah peace be upon him came and told people to worship God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell -this same message was given to all the Prophets up and till the last one-Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. This is the message of God.

- The events of the plagues of Egypt, the flood at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him, the death of the homosexuals at the time of Prophet Lut peace be upon him are ALL factual events.

You are not better then the Prophets Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad peace be upon them that we would ever listen to you over them.

You say that religion needs to change with the times-in what way?? When life is the same, people sleep, eat, have children, have illnesses and die, regardless of what people do. I'm not always on forums, but the answer is there, it is a fact that the Prophets are messengers of God, and that God has ie Archangel Gabriel bowing down to him in worship, where even Archangel Gabriel isn't a part of God-so who the hell are you to say such a thing.

The verses about war in the Quran is about fighting against those those who fight the Muslims and who prevent Muslims from practising their religion. So if you wish to discuss those versee-then you should quote the events surrounding them instead of claiming that your speaking from an intellectual standpoint-where your picking and choosing.

As we are coming to the Major signs of the Day of Judgement, where Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is returning, as God is bringing him back into this world-this is also a factual event that every Muslim believes in as we would never take someone, who may even be having sex outside of marriage, accepting homosexuality splashing about in pools with barely dressed females/males. So instead of waffling on, need to give examples on how you live your life-were we have the examples of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his companions.

[greenhill]

Kkawohl1,

Can't do the quote thing in the mobile device..

The Quran is not just that. It has plenty of elements in there scattered about all over the book. It has guidance, it has warnings, prayers (dua), it has praises (tasbih), statements (can be science or signs), advice, guidance, history (not his - story but Allah's story) and more.

So really, we can't bundle the Quran to being just a specific thing but a general guide to life.

:peace:

[greenhill]

Eshai,

That is why we need to study it. Not on our own but with various teachers.

What makes it difficult is that it is very concise and no word is superfluous and written to such a high standard (not possible by man) it would not be a stroll in the park to fully digest it.

It starts to make more sense the more it is read. Like any book, if it is not read properly, it too would be confusing.

Add to the fact that there are people who read it with a fixed perspective and when they come across statements that goes contrary, confusion results. Worse still, rather than to seek clarification in the proper place, they inject these so called 'findings' into their casual conversation with people who are not in the know.

:peace:

[ardianto]

deleted post

Not the Qur'an itself which is confusing me, but behavior of some Muslims that interpret qur'an according to their own way, for the sake of their own.

I always realize that Qur'an is a holy book that contain metaphorical words, not math book that should be read always literally. That's why I never confused.

[kkawohl1]

I believe that the Holy Books serve as a guide and the Holy Spirit fills out the rest and reveals what is relevant.