format_quote Originally Posted by
Traditio
1. My apologies for not getting around to answering you sooner.
2. You are mistaken. My objections don't arise in the context of Christianity.
A. I think that angels and demons don't have bodies. I think that they are finite, incorporeal, spiritual, intellectual substances. They don't naturally have bodies. As such, they occupy a middle place in the heirarchy between human beings (spiritual and corporeal) and God (spiritual, infinite and uncreated). Claiming that there are rational animals composed of fire or light or air or...to sum up, anything other than primarily of earth...is simply unreasonable and unnecessary.
B. I think that God does not promise a carnal reward in the afterlife. What He offers is the face to face vision of Himself, the Supreme Good. A carnal reward would be an excellent reward for us...if we were pigs, and the best thing about us were our animality. But we aren't. We are human beings with reason and will. We are persons, intellectual universes of knowledge and love, and have a natural longing for infinite being, truth and goodness which only the face to face vision of God can satisfy, but which only God can freely offer to us by grace (which, I say, He has made possible by grace through Jesus).
Yes, it's true that, after the final resurrection, we will get our bodies back again, either to join our souls in unending punishment, or else, in everlasting glory. But for all that, the chief pains of Hell will not be bodily, nor will the real delights of Heaven be bodily. The chief pain of Hell is the loss of God and knowing that you will never see God because of your own sins. The pleasure of Heaven is knowing and loving God face to face, in being caught up in His love and clinging to Him forever. Yes, this delight will overflow into the body as well, but the delight of seeing God face to face is intellectual, not carnal.
C. I think that it's always wrong to lie. As Jesus says, Satan is the father of lies, whereas God is Truth Itself.
This makes sense in the context of the ancient theory of the four elements. If we assume that theory, then it's still evident that we are primarily made of earth. Our bodies are apparently held together by solid, firm stuff. But it makes no sense to speak of an animal made of fire, air or water. That stuff doesn't "stay put," so to speak.
Again, this is just wrong. If you read books II and III of Aristotle's De Anima (On the Soul), Aristotle think that it's pretty obvious that our bodies are made up of a great deal of earth (if you want to call it "clay," then that's fine). We are made up of a great deal of firm, solid stuff that stays put, plus a suitable admixture of the other elements (air, fire and water) to enable us to sense and interact with our environment.
I thought that they're supposed to be invisible?
I don't think that we can see the demons (fallen angels) because they don't naturally have bodies. Incorporeal realities aren't sensible.
Fair enough. I thought the invisible fire/light people, and it occurs to me that this doesn't work. I believe that, after the resurrection, the bodies of the ****ed will be tormented by a fire that doesn't give off any light. Why? In order to torment both the senses of sight (with darkness) and touch (with fiery pain).
This is another objection I have to Islam. Do you really think that you can "earn" your way to Heaven?
Let's get this straight. Are you telling me that, whereas human beings are composed of body and soul, demons and angels, even though they have bodies, don't also have souls?
There are different things I could say about this, but I'll rest here: that there's a disproportion between man's beginning (what man is capable of and given by nature) and end (that to which he is called as his final perfection).
If you are correct, then there can be no rewards or punishments until the final resurrection. Unless you want to say that they have different bodies now, and will be given another set of bodies at the resurrection, which is just patently wrong (for reasons Aristotle gives in the De Anima). That involves the error of thinking that any soul can go into any body. That's wrong. My soul naturally is suited to actuated my body! Note here that we find a correlate of this in the Christian faith. Jesus didn't "hop" from one body to another. No! When Jesus appeared to his apostles, the tomb was empty.
Contemplate that.
Even in this life, not all delights are bodily. Plato makes this point outstandingly in the Symposium and in other places, Plotinus fastens onto it excellently. Yes, there are beauties and pleasures of bodies and of the senses. But don't these pale in comparison with the beauties and pleasures of good and morally fine ways of life? With the beauties and pleasures of thoughts and sciences? Of contemplation of divine things?
The greatest pleasures are contemplative, not carnal.
In this life, it is fitting for human beings, as animals, to eat and drink (to preserve their bodies) and to get married and have children (in order to keep the human race going). But these things have no place in the next life. For the ****ed, it would be would be inconsistent with their punishment. For the Blessed, it would be unnecessary and superfluous: they have attained true immortality. They have attained the original, the reality, of which marriage and the begetting of children here is but a dim reflection and shadow.
I have a vague idea of what you're talking about, but not entirely. Would you explain the question more?
Yes, this doesn't make any sense to me. How can a Muslim, in one and the same breath, claim that Allah wants him or her to restrain himself in this life, but also offers him a reward of everlasting gluttony and debauchery in the next? Or am I misunderstanding the claim?
I'm not a Jehovah's witness.
Food and drink are naturally ordered to survival. Sex is naturally ordered to bearing children. Of course, people go to excess. The fact of the matter is that people have disordered and unruly desires and appetites. Humanity is fallen because of original sin.
I'm afraid that you don't understand our doctrine. How do you understand this claim, that "God has taken himself a son"? What do you think we mean by it?
1. Then as I am not always around forums, if you don't always get a reply-you'll need to continue to do your own research. Also your or over the place, asking questions like an atheist, then using Christianity to say what you believe-with no religious understanding of the basics, so happy to use the term Christianity, so its normal to reply with why are you asking such and such when this is even agreed by Christianity etc.
2. A-You use the word "think"-we are not interested in what you think-either give us factual evidence which you have non on what angels are, I have provided details that they have bodies and don't just float around but are physical beings carrying on the duties of God.
B. Here you use the word "think", again provide factual evidence, when I the proof is that Prophet Adam peace be upon him got thrown out of Paradise that he was enjoying with his wife.
C. Again does Aristotle or Plato have revelations from God-are they Prophets?? I don't care at all what they think.
Are you saying that God cannot create something out of fire and light? As that is itself going against the fact that God is All-Powerful. He is able to make fire stay and do what he wishes to it, it is a fact that the Jinn are made out of fire.
Can you see the devils now?? No you can't.
Can you see the angels right now? No you can't
Can you see God right now? No you can't
Just because you can't see something in this world, of course doesn't mean that they don't exist.
The devils exist with physical bodies, they can come into this world too. Just because you cannot see something that doesn't mean that it exists as a whisp of light, Paradise is a physical world.
How many times you denied the above, by saying you don't "think"-well that is not good enough.
It is a fact that people do good deeds and earn a place in Paradise with God's mercy. Why is this so wrong??? How should people's reward be earned, then why should people go to Hell??
The jinn are known to change shape, there are some who can quickly cover large distances, why do you assume that everything else is working at a starting point of how humans are made?? The jinn existed before human. If you think again this is flawed, that they are made out of fire, you need to give factual evidence, not what some people who are not Prophet came up with.
Again where is your religious documents, proof, are you saying that it doesn't say in the bible that there is a Paradise??? Where does it say that Paradise has been destroyed, where does it say that it wasn't a good enough reward??
Again bring religious documents to support your views. The soul can also see, here and feel. We see the angel of death when he takes our soul. There is punishment in the grave-which you need to read up on seperately. So the soul is not dead and lifeless. But the fact is that we will be resurrected back into our bodies. People will have the reward that they have earned after the Day of Judgement. A soul is actually something that we have little information about-so if to question something that you have no hope of further information, doesn't mean that your clever but foolish. We are not expected to know everything that God knows.
Prophet Jesus peace be upon him didn't appear to the apostles, it was Satan who led them astray. Why would he come back after the people rejected the authorites?? They left him and thought he went through an act of being killed and now you say he came back, its ridiculous. After all he done for them, he spoke when he was a baby, had the table of food spreadth from Heaven, no-the people had already too much and they were not good enough. Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is believed to be taken to Heaven, body and soul, he will not be getting a new body made for him when he returns back into this world, two angels will be bringing him down to Damascas-where Muslims will be waiting for him.
You say "beauties and pleasures of good and morally fine ways of life? With the beauties and pleasures of thoughts and sciences? Of contemplation of divine things?
The greatest pleasures are contemplative, not carnal."
Here the statement as above is broad and actually meaningless as you have not an example, but a thought, so where is it, where is the religious proof of what you will have in the next world and how you will live. Will you not be speaking to another human ever again?? Will you not be speaking to an angel?? Will you not even be speaking to creatures, whether they be birds or lions?? So what is that you will be doing?? As everything that God creates is an act of him mercy, we are the created and we enjoy what our Lord provides. So instead of making broad statements, you need to note down more detail on what and how you will be living in the hereafter, backed with religious documents.
We never said that the wicked would be getting married or having children, but they will be getting drinks of boiling water, and eating pus, and foul things. They wished to devour interest, and gossip etc, and live by consuming what isn't there's then what they took was evil and foul and foul is what they get in the hereafter.
Then you state;-
They have attained the original, the reality, of which marriage and the begetting of children here is but a dim reflection and shadow.
Again as previously it is a broad statement, which is meaningless, marriage is a blessed thing, you need to provide more details, ie will anyone be communicating with each other? what would former husbands/wives be saying to each other?? what then would children be doing around their mothers-or are you saying that they will treat them as if they mean nothing to them??
There are Christians today, who believe that they will become angel like, if you say that this isn't true, but anyway by what you are stating, you think you are going to be angelic like. We are humans not angels. We are part of Mankind, God created us well.
So you say that you disbelieve that the former Prophets ie King David peace be upon him fasted?? Even in judaism fasted, it is showing that we value God. Do you see the majority of Muslims as obese that we consume more food then is necessary?? Do you see us involved in running our lives by sex?? The fact is that you have provided no religious documents, or admit that the bible actually states there is a Paradise.
Again need to show religious proof, of what you say, people just don't get married to have children, they get married because they love each other. Are you then saying that when people love each other, that is not going to be anything of value in the next world??
I do understand, you say that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a son of God. Whatever you like to quote ie the son is the father, the father is the son etc. It is idol worship. Plenty of Christians don' understand it either-if you deny this, when I know its true, will just have to see what you say about it on the Day of Judgement.
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What this is rather showing is the claim of
INDEPENDENCE that people like to live by. They think they don't need anyone's help or that they are independent from others, then they wish to reject that they have anything to do with anyone else in the hereafter because of
ARROGANCE. It is a huge lie that people like to live by, and wish to see themselves as. So to ultimately say that you are not going to be living in Paradise, need to associate yourself with others, isn't because their is something wrong with it or goes against your religious beliefs, but rather that you don't wish it, so to be away from people.
There are many people in the west now who think they can do what they like, that no one can tell them what to do. There was even a case of an old woman telling teenage girls to quieten, and she was beaten by them. Anytime you mention some sort of advice, its who the hell do you think you are.
When they buy something, they have the attitude "because we paid for it", it somehow absolves all responsibility to society. For example buying a bottle of milk for a pound-do you really think that sufficiently pays for that bottle of milk?? What about all the work the farmer puts into it?? This is where you thank God and help other people.
This "because we paid for it" attitude is were people just by their produce and some (not all) don't help and give anything back. Because they have little interaction with people, ie buy their products at supermarkets, instead of growing crop and needing help of others, they view themselves arrogantly as independent.
So you just spent your time talking questioning things as an Atheist, using then Christian jargon ie the trinity, then talking about Plato and Aristotle and largely by what you "think" (all over the place). God has clearly given the message, so why would we need to think about what you think when you don't have any revelations by God, God did not speak to you from a burning bush, he didn't send any angel to give you a message, neither have you ever seen one. You have provided borad meaningless statements to the factual ones given by myself, with no real information from yourself on how people will be living and really what they will be doing.
This is where people who accept the one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell cannot be corrupted, are sincere in their intentions, if you take out one, you know that person has not the best intentions, here you take out Paradise for arrogance. We can only live as humans, which was not deplorable for Prophet Jesus peace be upon him to do so, neither was it awful for his Mother.
Either repent and become a Muslim, or stay as you are that is your choice of course, but what can be different is not posting your meaningless jargon on what you "think". As you can understand, people are not going to base facts and on what God says on what you think, when he has already revealed the truth, and where you have not brought a shred of religious verse to say that Paradise will not exist etc.
We will see each other on the Day of Judgement, and if you have chosen not to repent, so remember that everything that you write and say, isn't about my responses, but of how God All-Mighty will be responding to them.