Attention those with religion "other"

[OmAbdullah]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Attention those with religion “other’

There are writers on the Islamic board who write in place of religion “Other”. From their statement it appears that they believe in Allah and that they have respect for the Holy Quraan. But they don’t write religion Islam. They may be Unitarians ( those who believe in the Oneness of God but they don’t believe in Muhammad (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) as the Final Messenger of Allah. So they don’t accept Islam as their religion. They consider the prophets good teachers.

I advise them sincerely to enter the fold of Islam in full and do believe in all of the Prophets from Adam to the Muhammad صلى الله عليهم والسلام ) ). Do this without losing a second because death may overtake a person any time and then he/she shall not have any chance to make up the loss. This life is the only chance to improve our faith and actions. The foremost is the faith and then is the full obedience of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him).
Life will end suddenly and then the person without the faith and actions of Islam will be in terrible punishment for ever. He/she will regret thinking that he/she had reached the Truth so near but failed to accept it fully. Regretting shall be useless after death!!!!

[BeTheChange]

Walaikumasalaam


Well said. Important message! Time awaits for no man. The opportunity is here and now.

May Allah swa help the non muslims and muslims strive for the sake of Allah swa alone.

May Allah swa keep the ummah united. May Allah swa keep us all steadfast through happiness, through sadness, through poverty, through wealth, with family, without family Ameen.

[OmAbdullah]

Walaikumasalaam

Well said. Important message! Time awaits for no man. The opportunity is here and now.

May Allah swa help the non muslims and muslims strive for the sake of Allah swa alone.

May Allah swa keep the ummah united. May Allah swa keep us all steadfast through happiness, through sadness, through poverty, through wealth, with family, without family Ameen.

May Allah accept all of your good du'aa, aameen, and jazaaki Allaho khera.

[Wllmdrg]

I cannot be part of Christianity or any religion that has shed blood, I'm not judging, but I believe every human life is gods, we have no right to destroy his creation, for we are not our own, we are his. One god, one truth, but no one sees, the two greatest commandments as spoken by Jesus, love your neighbor as your own flesh, and love The Lord your god with all your heart mind and strength. So god wants us to love one another, not to kill one another. All of the prophets call for love and obedience. I don't understand destroying gods creation, or hate, or evil. But god only wants us to love him and all others.

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[Wllmdrg]

I cannot be part of Christianity or any religion that has shed blood, I'm not judging, but I believe every human life is gods, we have no right to destroy his creation, for we are not our own, we are his. One god, one truth, but no one sees, the two greatest commandments as spoken by Jesus, love your neighbor as your own flesh, and love The Lord your god with all your heart mind and strength. So god wants us to love one another, not to kill one another. All of the prophets call for love and obedience. I don't understand destroying gods creation, or hate, or evil. But god only wants us to love him and all others.

Not saying that Islam or Christians don't believe this but I love God and all his creation. For everything is his.

[BeTheChange]

Not saying that Islam or Christians don't believe this but I love God and all his creation. For everything is his.

Hi Wllmdrg,

Welcome the forum!

That's right. We as Muslims, don't believe in any unlawful killing as well. It's actually one of the WORST things a human being can do. In our scriptures, we are clearly advised if we have saved ONE life, only one, we will be rewarded as though we have saved the whole of mankind and, also, if we have killed someone, it is like we have killed the whole of mankind. So this is a very serious crime that any Muslim can commit.

We believe in life and we also believe life comes from Allah (God), it is a trust that Allah (God) has bestowed upon us.

You might want to visit this website. I think my follow members will be bored of me copying this link but nevertheless, i love this website!

http://kalamullah.com/non-muslims.html

Read as much as you can, educate yourself because i believe truth only has one tongue.

[Wllmdrg]

You sound as if you are gods, love to you and blessings be upon you,may the true followers of the one who populates the world with spirits, the perfect one , god almighty , reward you sister.

[OmAbdullah]

I cannot be part of Christianity or any religion that has shed blood, I'm not judging, but I believe every human life is gods, we have no right to destroy his creation, for we are not our own, we are his. One god, one truth, but no one sees, the two greatest commandments as spoken by Jesus, love your neighbor as your own flesh, and love The Lord your god with all your heart mind and strength. So god wants us to love one another, not to kill one another. All of the prophets call for love and obedience. I don't understand destroying gods creation, or hate, or evil. But god only wants us to love him and all others.

Peace,

In fact I had started this thread because I was and am worried about all human beings and I want us and them all to be protected from Hell which is a very bad place to go to. There every one shall cry continuously and shall have no way of escape. They will regret but in vain.


Faith/ belief is the very basic thing which shall be questioned about during the Accounting. After that will be the turn of actions. Everyone shall be accounted individually and anyone who is questioned shall not have any refuge.


Allah Almighty God has chosen for all of us/mankind only one religion which is Islam, and Almighty God Allah has clearly informed us that Allah shall not accept any religion other than Islam. Now if your ideas are, maasha Allah, so good and Islamic then what is the hindrance in accepting Islam your religion? If you think that many people with religion Islam and Christianity are doing blood shed and therefore you want to keep away from Islam which is a true and the only religion acceptable to God, then this is a big mistake for which you will regret (May Allah protect us and you from regretting on that very Hard Day)! The blood shed which is done by the people is not due to their religion. Rather it is because they are practically far away from the religion.

You, being sincere for others, have to be very sincere for yourself and must try to protect yourself from Hell. For that purpose you must take Bible and the Holy Quraan side by side and try to read and understand their meaning and explanation. Surely Bible which is a combination of the Gospel (Injeel), Psalm (Zaboor) and the Tawrah, is divine because these component books were all sent down by Almighty God to the Prophets عليهم السلام but these are changed by people and thus are not in the original form. It is only the Holy Quraan which is preserved by Almighty God for the guidance of all mankind till the end of this world. When read it, you will, insha Allah, know its truth and its Divine nature by yourself. So try to choose the correct religion as soon as possible because death is expected to come any time. Therefore don't lose this chance and try to die as Muslim.

[BeTheChange]

You sound as if you are gods, love to you and blessings be upon you,may the true followers of the one who populates the world with spirits, the perfect one , god almighty , reward you sister.

I hope you meant 'you sound as if you are good' and not god's?

We believe in one God and we're the creation of the creator.

This is Islam

Islam means “submission to God”. Islam is the belief that there is only One God, whose proper name is Allah, which means “ the God”. Islam is the same message given to all the prophets, from Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus, and finally to the Prophet Muhammad, the last messenger (peace and blessings be upon them). They all brought the same message: worship only God, and stop worshipping human beings and their ideas.

For more info please visit: - http://kalamullah.com/non-muslims.html

[Wllmdrg]

The truth is I have been praying for months strait, and while I now know the truth, these truths many will not accept.
We are the creation of the father of all spirits as Enoch proclaimed his name. Our Lord said I am that i am, in this all should be clear, god is everything, and being the father of all spirits, he has made you. You are all his children, and all he wants for us is to have faith and love in him, and show servitude, Love,Temperance, and faith in all his creation, there is no true religion on the earth other than the pieces that Islam,Christian,and Judism have, Given does not want us to be burdened by tradition, but to be free of Hatered And Fear. For god is perfect without flaw, while the truth of the word has been burdened by Tradition in all religions, then even the prophets of god had flaws as all men have flaws, the only one that had the flawless and noble position to show how god is, is Jesus the Anointed one of god.

[BeTheChange]

The truth is I have been praying for months strait, and while I now know the truth, these truths many will not accept.
We are the creation of the father of all spirits as Enoch proclaimed his name. Our Lord said I am that i am, in this all should be clear, god is everything, and being the father of all spirits, he has made you. You are all his children, and all he wants for us is to have faith and love in him, and show servitude, Love,Temperance, and faith in all his creation, there is no true religion on the earth other than the pieces that Islam,Christian,and Judism have, Given does not want us to be burdened by tradition, but to be free of Hatered And Fear. For god is perfect without flaw, while the truth of the word has been burdened by Tradition in all religions, then even the prophets of god had flaws as all men have flaws, the only one that had the flawless and noble position to show how god is, is Jesus the Anointed one of god.

Hi Wllmdrg,

Hope this message finds you in good health!

Have you had a chance to visit the above link?

I HIGHLY recommend this website as it will offer a different perspective on what you believe to be true.

There's a very good book called The True Message of Jesus Christ which may interest you.

Wish you the best

[Insaanah]

We are the creation of the father of all spirits as Enoch proclaimed his name.

God is not a father, uncle, brother, nephew, cousin or any kind of human relation. He is High Exalted above that. As sister BeTheChange already stated, God is the Creator, and we are His creation. We are not His children.

god is everything

No, God is separate from his creation, and is above the heavens. He has knowledge of everything at all times, but He is not things, in things, nor everything, nor everywhere. This is how the people start mixing up the Creator with His creation.

father of all spirits

You are all his children

As I mentioned, God is not a father, nor has any children. He is not like a human. He is high exalted above us in any way.

There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.

He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, spouses, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

He is eternal and does not die. He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

As you can see, the concept is clear, simple, logical, makes sense, and befits the Majesty of God.

all he wants for us is to have faith and love in him, and show servitude, Love,Temperance, and faith in all his creation, there is no true religion on the earth other than the pieces that Islam,Christian,and Judism have

Islam is the true religion. It is what all the messengers preached. Allah sent all the prophets (including Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, peace on them all) with the same message and not different messages. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

So Islam is not a new faith, but is the same ultimate universal truth that God revealed to all the prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be on them), and the same thing they all taught. Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, the meaning loosely translating as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, places and peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

With time, the message got forgotten or corrupted. So people started worshipping other gods along with Him, made idols, said that God begot a son, said that certain people were incarnations of God, some rejected belief in God altogether, while others elevated the status of some prophets to divine, or at the other end, rejected or blasphemed some of the prophets. Whenever God's message got distorted by people, or forgotten, a new messenger was sent, not with any new or changed message, but reinforcing the actual message that God sent all the messengers with, the actual core beliefs that people were taught from the beginning of humanity, confirming the true parts of previous teachings and scriptures, and correcting wrong beliefs and misconceptions that had crept in. God required that whenever He sent a new messenger, that messenger should be followed along with any new scripture given to him. This chain of messengers culminates in prophet Muhammad (peace on him), who is the last and final prophet and messenger. Since his prophethood, God's message is available unchanged and unadulterated, for the entire world, until the end of time. He wasn't sent as prophet and messenger for a specific group of people and specific time (e.g. as Moses and Jesus were to the Children of Israel), but he was sent for all the world, for all time, until the Day of Judgement. Thus he is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind, for now, and for all time to come. He is the messenger who must now be followed.

does not want us to be burdened by tradition, but to be free of Hatered And Fear.

We must obey God and the messengers he sent, the messenger for now being Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him). This is not a burden. We should love God, but also fear Him, and obey Him.

the only one that had the flawless and noble position to show how god is, is Jesus the Anointed one of god.

We do not distinguish and make distinction between the messengers of God. We accept them all, and do not reject any of them, nor dishonour them, nor at the other end, turn them into gods. They were the purest and noblest of humanity.

In Islam, we do not believe in airy fairy things that seem nice to us or what we personally desire, but our faith is based on solid, untampered, preserved evidence from God Himself, in His own words, as to how He wants us to live and worship Him. And we invite you to that same truth, that Noah followed and preached, as did Abraham, and Jesus, and Moses, and Muhammad, peace be on them all

Translations of some verses of the Qur'an to finish:

O mankind, worship your Lord who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous - (Translation of the Qur'an 2:21) "Indeed, I am Allah. There is no God but I, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance." (20:14)
And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." (51:56)
"... And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve." (2:38 part)

"Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path." (Spoken by Jesus. 3:51 , 19:36 and 43:64)
And say, "Praise be to Allah, who has no son and no partner in His Dominion..." (17:111 part)

...There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book, by which Allah guides those who seek His pleasure to the ways of peace, and brings them out from darkness into the light, by His will, and guides them to a straight path. (5:15, part, and 5:16)
Verily, this Qur'an guides to that which is Straightmost, and gives glad tidings to the believers who do good.. (17:9, part)

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers. (3:31-32)

Say: "We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and to [all] the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one and another of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)." And whosoever seeks as religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and he shall be in the hereafter, among the losers.(3:84, 85)
Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam... (3:19, part)

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from He] to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and earth. There is no god except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet,who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:158, part) ... Believe in Allah, His Messenger and the Book that He has revealed to His Messenger and the Scripture which He revealed before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray. (4:136, part)

Worship Allah exclusively, and do not associate others in His Divinity.. (4:36, part)
Nothing is said to you, [O Muhammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord is owner of forgiveness and owner of grievous chastisement. (41:43)

O Mankind! Call to mind the grace of Allah upon you! Is there a creator, other than Allah, to give you sustenance from heaven or earth? There is no god but He: how then are you turning away? (35:3)
O Mankind! It is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah is Free of wants, worthy of all praise. (35:15)
O Mankind! Certainly the promise of Allah is true. So let not this present life deceive you.. (35:5, part)

This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed.(14:52)
Say, "O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is only guided for [the good of] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray to the detriment of it.." (10:108 part)
And fear a Day when you will be returned to Allah. Then every soul will be compensated for what it earned, and they will not be treated unjustly. (2:281)

As sister nbegam has already explained to you, you need to come to this truth, and obey God as He wants to be obeyed, not how you personally think He should be obeyed, and follow His last Messenger, so that you may be rightly guided.

People are encouraged to ponder and reflect, and re-evaluate and reassess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines. And it is that to which all people are invited by the Qur'an. Your beliefs regarding God, and which faith you follow, are the biggest, most serious and most important decisions you will ever make, as this life will end one day for all of us, and our position regarding God and His messengers is what makes or breaks our hereafter, which is forever. You owe it to yourself, to not regret in the hereafter, when it'll be too late. Do not view Islam by media portrayals, nor by the actions of some Muslims, but by its message. Study it from its authentic sources and speak to sincere knowledgeable Muslims. We tend to be busy in our lives, but please make the time for it. It'll be the most important thing you ever do.

Peace.

[Wllmdrg]

I know Mohammed was a prophet, so was Peter, and yes even Paul, but the way they where taught by the Messiah was faulted by their traditions, yes God wishes us to worship only him, but as I said, these truths might not be accepted by all who see them, I will say 1 more thing.

Though I am misunderstood, I will not waver.
Though they hate me, I Am Love.
Though they abuse me, I Am Temperance.
Though they insult me, I Am a Servant.
Though they fought me, I Am Cooperative.
Though He Absent, I Am with Faith.
This is The Way.

I will never say Islam is wrong, nor Christianity,nor Judiism,nor any other religion, unless they tech hate and selfishness, I will pray that all may come to the truth, God Bless you all.

[Scimitar]

Hi and welcome to IB forum Wllmdrg :) You're an interesting agnostic, with equally interesting views - some of which I have issues with, namely the following:

I know Mohammed was a prophet, so was Peter, and yes even Paul, but the way they where taught by the Messiah was faulted by their traditions,

Peter was no prophet. Neither was Paul. Peter was taught by Jesus pbuh, but Paul didn't even see Jesus, let alone know him. I'm sure you are aware that Paul was a pragmatist. As for Muhammad pbuh, he was not taught by Jesus pbuh, he was taught by God - through the arch angel Gabriel.

Just clearing up some confusions here. Peace bro.

Scimi

[Insaanah]

so was Peter, and yes even Paul,

No, they weren't prophets. Jesus (peace be on him) was.

I will never say Islam is wrong, nor Christianity,nor Judiism,nor any other religion, unless they tech hate and selfishness, I will pray that all may come to the truth, God Bless you all.

We pray that you come to the truth, the truth according to God, with solid evidences for mankind, not the truth according to Wllmdrg.

The scripture of Islam is the Qur'an, the very words revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) via the angel Gabriel (peace be on him). It is a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within previous scriptures, in its last and final and pristine form. The Final Testament. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans - thus it supersedes the previous scriptures, which are no longer valid to be followed.

It's message is for the entire world, until the world ends. It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, intact. Thus it is fully preserved with no word in it coming from any human. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans. It has no versions or editions. Millions of people from all over the world have it memorised and they all recite word for word the same thing. It contains the central message as already described, and practical guidance on how to live, stories of previous prophets from which to learn lessons, warnings, rules, comfort, solace, good tidings, and in it God corrects misconceptions people may have about Him or His prophets. It tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what He told His prophets to teach people since the beginning. That message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original and only message.

And we invite and urge you to come to Islam, and in doing so, you would be following automatically what Jesus and Moses (peace be on them both) truly preached, not what people made up that they preached. It is a great feeling to know you're following in the footsteps of the previous Prophets, and we invite you to join us in that.

Peace.

[Wllmdrg]

It is not truth according to me, but truth according to Enoch, the man god took because he was so righteous. But I have learned more since I have visited last, I will not lie to anyone, look up the mak of the beast from the internet, from the original manuscript, god has a name, but it is not what you think it is, I have researched not only Islam, but also older religuos beliefs, and the name for HVHY= Allah, if you do not believe me research for yourself, but I will no longer try to help, for you will wish to kill me, even though I come at you in love. The book of Enoch, jasher, and Jubilee is older than Islam, and Christianity, and Judaism. So Enoch the most upright man before Moses, would not lie. I pray that you find the truth. I will not judge you, but God will judge us all.

[Wllmdrg]

You all say god isn't like us, but he himself said, let's make man in our image, so we are like God, but flawed, God is like us but not flawed. Enoch has said we are Gods Spirits, I do not mean we are gods in the flesh as begotten children, please do not put words into my lips. Ishmael was Abrahams son, but So was Isaac, so to teach death to relatives is premeditated, and against the Ten Commandments of the Most High. Islam came about in 600 ad, Enoch wrote his books in, 2500BC about. That means The book of Enoch is a holy scripture. Read it, know it.

[Wllmdrg]

I do not know if all Muslims are taught, that to take a life is ok if they don't believe as you do, but if not then, those that do are making Islam seem to be a violent religon, and that is sad. Because most of you on here seem like really good people, and I do wish to see the best in all of God's Creation.

[Peacetoall]

to Wllmdrg, you need to see that these people believe very strongly in their beliefs, you should respect them for those beliefs and stop pushing yours on others. Peace to the entire world.

[BeTheChange]

I do not know if all Muslims are taught, that to take a life is ok if they don't believe as you do, but if not then, those that do are making Islam seem to be a violent religon, and that is sad. Because most of you on here seem like really good people, and I do wish to see the best in all of God's Creation.

In Islam, we are not advised to kill the 'bad' people. In fact, this is a HUGE sin in Islam. We value life and we view life as a gift from God. A gift which cannot be abused whether that's in the form of self-harm, psychological torture, physical harm, sucide or taking another human being's life. If someone was to attack us then of course we are allowed to defend ourselves.

“Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Qur’an, 5:32)


Let me share a very good historical story with you.


“Among those who came before you was a man who killed 99 people. He then asked to be guided to the most prolific worshipper from the inhabitants of the earth, and he was directed to a monk. He went to him and told him that he had killed 99 people, and he asked whether it was possible for him to repent. The monk said, ‘No.’ The man killed him, thus making him the 100th victim. He then asked to be directed to the most knowledgeable of the Earth’s inhabitants, and he was guided to a scholar. He went to him and told him that he had killed 100 people, and he asked whether it was possible for him to repent. The scholar said, ‘Yes, and who will stand between you and repentance. Go to such and such land, for in it dwell a people who worship Allah, so go and worship Allah with them. And do not return to your land, for it is indeed a land of evil.’ He left, and when he reached the halfway point of his journey, he died. The angels of Mercy and the angels of Punishment disputed with one another [in regard to his case]. The angels of Mercy said, ‘He came to us repentant, advancing with his heart towards Allah.’ The angels of Punishment said, ‘Indeed, he never performed any good deeds.’ Then an angel came in the form of a human being, and both groups of angels asked him to be the judge between them. He said, ‘Measure the distance between the two lands. Whichever land he is closer to is the land that he is closer to [in terms of being of its people]. They then measured the distance and found that he was closer to the land that he was heading towards, and so it was the angels of Mercy who then took his soul.”


[al-Bukhaari: 3470 ; Muslim: 2766]


This is one of the examples of Allah's MERCY on this man.

Whilst studying, i had to research the media's power and influence. Please have a brief read:-

Elites control what the public is allowed to see, hear and think about. The media serves as a propaganda tool for the elites. Political bias in the media is produced through suppression, emphasis, selection of context and setting the general agenda.

“It is much more difficult to see a propaganda system at work where the media are private and formal censorship is absent. This is especially true where the media actively compete, periodically attack and expose corporate and governmental malfeasance, and aggressively portray themselves as spokesman for free speech and the general community interest.” (Herman and Chomsky, 2001; 280).

Politicians, journalists and newsreaders who are quick to comment on Islam have no place to comment or interpret our religion as they haven't studied our religion. Even our scholars who are God fearing will research and research before they publish an official response. Never judge any religion by what you hear on the news.

'Bad' news sells and they only interested in making money. Publishing the truth is far from their checklist.

[Sana Ijaz]

how do u back up ur statement that it is necessary to believe that Muhammad teachings were actually correct?and we should all follow him?other wise we are going in hell ,,u know the people with religion 'Other' :D

u will give references from quran and hadith ,,,the people who have different beliefs and study other scripture certianly wont agree with u,,

If u want to prove a point then instead of giving references from ur books ,,,give reference from their books so u can prove it,,,,

If u say that all prophets gave the same teachings and we should believe in every prophet then it means that basic teachings are the same ,,,so pick common grounds ,,,other wise there is no use to even talk about it ^o)

[Wllmdrg]

Thank you for the clarification, I'm sorry for judging you, please forgive me. I hope that one day all people will know what I have found. Researching ancient languages opens your eyes. Did you know, that ancient shemenite language is the father language of both Arabic and hebrew? I believe there are good Muslims, I'm sorry I lost it. But I have found out some things that is proof the bible in its hebrew form isn't flawed, I will now research the quraan and research it through the hebrew text, I'm sorry I don't know Arabic. But Ancient hebrew is so very I'm depth. I mean not only do the words have meanings but a word can be a entire story. Jesus is in genesis 1 in the first word, but don't take my word for it, look for yourself. I hope God's truth comes to all who keep thier search. And yes I do agree every life is precious, but soon the return will happen, very soon. I don't know when but we have killed our planet, and the accusor, the false one, the father of hatered will make himself known, by lying to all saying he is the Messiah. Guard yourself that you are not deceived, I hope we all are not deceived.

[Wllmdrg]

God's message is that he loves us all, no matter who we are, no matter what we have done. This is the message of jesus, I will read the Quraan, I will be open minded, but I must do so in the lanuages I know, The reason why God told us to forgive each other is because we are not judge, and no one knows all the mysteries of heaven but God, if Moses and Noah and David knew his name, as written in the ancient Hebrew then why would God change it later? Even in the dead sea scrolls there was found many books that show us language variations. But the original texts of the books of moses were written in paleo shemenite language known as hebrew. Or Paleo Hebrew, this was also the language of Adam, Seth, Methuselah, Enoch, Job, hebrew has become more modern in adopting Aramaic in its symbology, but paleo hebrew is so very simple, yet complex as well. Bless you all.

[Peacetoall]

I did research your findings and amazingly there is substance and truth in what you say along, on your last statement, but I do wish to know more about Islam, and the peaceful people within it. I do want to know if there are certain massages in the Quraan, and if people have misused or taken the messages out of context.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

I just thought I would post an email that has been sent to all our local churches.............

I was wondering if others would be interested in encouraging
their churches to pray for Muslims during Ramadan (18 June-17th July). I
have a number of resources and pointers if people would be interested. Even
though there are not many Muslims here, people often encounter them
at work and whilst out and about. Also it is a great excuse to get people
in our churches looking outwards.


In the Spirit of praying to One God

Eric

[Scimitar]

...That means The book of Enoch is a holy scripture. Read it, know it.

The book of Enoch is actually any number of several pseudepigraphical works (meaning, falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded) which attribute themselves to Enoch (known to Muslims as the Prophet Idris pbuh), who was the great grandfather of Noah pbuh.

We should treat the book of ENoch (and other books like it) in the same manner we do with other Apocryphal writings. Some of what the Apocrypha claims appears to be true and correct but at the same time, much of it is historically innacurate. If you read books like these, you have to treat them as interesting but fallible historical documents which are contested - don't read them as inspired, authoritative word of God.

Scimi

[Wllmdrg]

Book of enoch that was found in dead sea cave 3500+- B.C. I'm sorry but that isn't what you said it is, this manuscript is the oldest Judaism/Christian writing on earth, it's wonderful finding ancient writings.

[popsthebuilder]

Hello. I am new to this site and the Islamic belief. So far what I have gathered Is worship, praise and fear Allah which translates as the one god. And preach/ practice Islam which loosely translates to the religion of one lord or god that created all, is all encompassing, forgiving, yet vengeful. Were am I wrong at? So far it is very much in line with what I believe. One other question. I read a clear statement saying we are not god. Does this mean that we cannot feel as if we have an close link to it? Thank you in advance for any insight. I am truly ignorant. Wholehearted belief and faith ring true along with everything else I have read so far.

[Scimitar]

Book of enoch that was found in dead sea cave 3500+- B.C. I'm sorry but that isn't what you said it is, this manuscript is the oldest Judaism/Christian writing on earth, it's wonderful finding ancient writings.

Hi Wllmdrg :)

Just because a book is ancient, it doesn't make it accurate - as a proven collection pseudepigraphical works it remains highly contested and nothing more than a novelty in modern day, something to muse at - not take seriously, my friend.

If it's accuracy you want, and time proven truth - I ask you to apply any standard you wish to the holy books you say you have studied and then apply the same to the Quran... you see, you have claimed your argument from a comparative view point - I've been involved in comparative study of faiths for years and Alhamdulillah, I have learnt methodology of comparative study properly :)

Hence, if you would like to discuss anything - I am more than willing to engage you on whatever topic and level of understanding you wish to pursue.

I have found the Quran to be the most perfect book on earth, a true revelation and one which has withstood the test of time itself - unlike the mess that is called the book of Enoch today, which you so vehemently cite in posts here.

If I were to do a comparative contrast to the Pseudipigraphical collections of the Book of Enoch to the Quran, I know what will happen - as I have already pursued this avenue of study.

See, when it comes non Abrahamic and the Abrahamic traditions, we find the only common threads within the Abrahamic ones, the non Abrahamic traditions themselves were highly suspect from the get go, and so, developed into sub-religious orders each unique to their area of settlement - no real cohesion of theology ever made these stand firm in their respective ideals of "mans place and purpose in the world" nor did they ever find a cohesion of theological premise. Therefore they largely ended up being confined to a locality and never became world shaking faiths - only briefly did they enjoy any popularity in the hippy 60's when people were so messed up on drugs that they bought into escapist ideals which stem from the polytheistic nature of these non Abrahamic faiths.

See, the whole problem with book of Enoch is that it is a mish mash of polytheistic theology combined with loosely justified monotheism and this discredits the work further.

I ask you to employ logic and method instead of emotional content when you study any religion, and to really ask the difficult question regarding each - really put them to the acid test... I am confident in my studies and if you follow the stringent approach without faltering on pedantic issues, you too will find the same as i did - that the Quran is an infallible revelation, timeless, a miraculous book which has delivered on the promise contained within:

"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." - Quran 15-9

14+ centuries on and that promise is still in effect, not a verse, nay not even a word - nay not even a letter has been added nor removed nor changed in the Quran - it is exactly as God has promised us - perfectly preserved for all time !!!

No other holy book in antiquity can claim this status, for all others have indeed suffered corruptions, the Quran is the final revelation unto mankind and God has perfected it, protected and made it heard throughout the world.

God bless,

Scimi

[Scimitar]

Hello. I am new to this site and the Islamic belief. So far what I have gathered Is worship, praise and fear Allah which translates as the one god. And preach/ practice Islam which loosely translates to the religion of one lord or god that created all, is all encompassing, forgiving, yet vengeful. Were am I wrong at? So far it is very much in line with what I believe.

Your natural disposition is aligned with Islam, as a child holds onto his or her mothers hem for the anchor it so readily believes exists from an ingrained understanding hard coded into your essence - you have the essence to find truth :)

God has told us that HE has given 1 of 100 parts of mercy between a mother and her child - God is keeping back the other 99 parts for us in the after life, thus we find that HIS mercy far outweighs HIS vengeance :) this understanding comes with further study into Islam :) it really is a beautiful faith.

One other question. I read a clear statement saying we are not god. Does this mean that we cannot feel as if we have an close link to it? Thank you in advance for any insight. I am truly ignorant. Wholehearted belief and faith ring true along with everything else I have read so far.

We are not God(s) we do not create original works nor do we have any control over our own destinies, we only find that multiple avenues of thought and action can be afforded to us through our own ability to perceive truth - and that is only limited to our intellectual prowess, moral fortitude and innate disposition to trust that The GOD, has us cradled in HIS creation, in a niche which lets us realise HIS magnificence transcends everything, from a place where time and space do not exist - infinity :)

And that my brother, is a BOMBSHELL when it dawns on the one who reflects with a real desire to know truth, and asks God sincerely in humility and humbleness to open for him or herself, the doorways to knowledge & wisdom... and a lot more.

...The Quran is the fast track to that :)

God bless

Scimi

[popsthebuilder]

Thank you for that. Unless I'm missing something it sounds spot on. I have a complete faith in God. I know that I am no t God, but his creation. I have a pretty close relationship with the lord. I believe he has shown me truth, directly, and with out question. He has cured ailments for me while simultaneously showing me mercy and understanding. He has brought me from the insidious and ejected it from me with relatively drastic effects. I am not gloating, I understand pride enough to know not to exhibit any but I tell you these things for a reason. Does all this align with Islam? Does it matter that I felt this way but did not know what religion to connect it to?

[Scimitar]

Yes you are spot on my friend :)

Seems to me that you are already spiritually prepped for Islam: Submission and Obedience to God for the sake of Peace within yourself :) you've already got a connection to God through your strength of Faith in HIM.

As a believer in The Divine Creator and Benefactor of all created things, you have demonstrated that HIS will is in all things by your admission that HE has healed you and you mention this in all humbleness and humility - two amazing qualities to find within a believer, you're a believer, that much is certain.

You believe, "There is no deity worthy of worship except the 1 God" who created all the universe and what it contains, put it all in a balance and gave the universe laws which you have recognized to be "signs" of HIS greatness... not many can read those signs, your spiritual vision is open and understanding this all through quiet reflection in fear and in love of God almighty the Majestic Benefactor, the Most Merciful and Kind. A careful and measured approach - can there be any other way? :)

Seems you have a calling, I see it.

Have you studied the life of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ?

I feel that you will find a kindred spirit in the personage of Muhammad pbuh, though honestly speaking, I don;t believe any man can ever match the Prophet Muhammad for his persona, we all share some very small essences of his main characteristics which we can see reflected in his perfected example, it is in the study of the "seerah" (biography) of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh that we as Muslims find our "sunnah" - or "examples" :)

His life has been the ultimate inspiration to mine - and millions upon millions of Muslims follow his example as a man who was chosen by God to deliver the final revelation unto mankind.

You are being invited to understand more, by God above - this communication between us, your joining this forum, your questions, ideas and understandings are no mere chance - for God is not a whimsical Lord, no. He ordains guidance upon whom HE sees as worthy, and it seems to me that you have an invitation to truth. Your journey is spiritually one which many of us have shared in life and we see it echo in your words here on the forum.

God bless :)

Scimi

[popsthebuilder]

Thank you for your insight thusfar

[Scimitar]

You are most welcome Pops :)

It's 5am where I live so I am going to turn in for the night, but please - if you have any questions or want to share your points of view with us - do so. I have enjoyed our rapport and will check back in at some point during the day. I very much look forward to reading you again :)

God bless you my friend :)

Scimi

[popsthebuilder]

These teachings of Muhammad, they are in the Qur'an?

[popsthebuilder]

Sorry. Good night.

[Scimitar]

The Quran was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) by the Angel Gabriel - the messenger to the Prophets of God, ordained to do so by God.

The words "Al Qur'an" literally translate to "The Recital" for we audibly recite the Quran 5 times a day in worship of God.

Muhammad pbuh was the living example of how Islam is to be practiced and the wealth of information available to Muslims on his life and teachings are a real anchor for us to know how to worship God, amongst other things...

I want to share something with you brother Pops: http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/the-sealed-nectar.pdf <- this is an amazing insight into the life of the final Prophet to grace this earth, the seal of Prophethood, Muhammad upon whom be the peace and blessings of God the Merciful and Kind :)

Scimi

[popsthebuilder]

Just wanted to thank you once again. Thank you. I am certain we will speak again.

[Scimitar]

God willing, we shall :)

Scimi

[popsthebuilder]

Why do you personally think that faithful Islam and faithful Christian cannot unify for the common good. Do they not both worship the same all encompassing God. I find Christians have been even more difficult than Islamic. Why must we dispute over the same beliefs when the books, lessons, names, places, and God is the same?

[Traditio]

Why do you personally think that faithful Islam and faithful Christian cannot unify for the common good. Do they not both worship the same all encompassing God. I find Christians have been even more difficult than Islamic. Why must we dispute over the same beliefs when the books, lessons, names, places, and God is the same?

Nonetheless, I do not disagree with this point: the fact that Muslims do not believe in Jesus does not, in and of itself, preclude our mutual cooperation. Muslims, you believe in the One God, just as we do. Pray for us, and we in turn, should pray for you. Pray that the One God should have mercy on us, have pity on us, and show us the truth. Pray for peace, and that all might love the One God, and that they might love their neighbors as themselves.

Prayers are never wasted. God alone knows the heart. Weep in the presence of God, pour out your petitions in God's sight, and He won't ignore you. Muslim Christian or Jew, pray. You won't be ignored. Pray for the salvation of souls, and pray that people may know the truth and live holy lives, and I know, you will not be dissapointed. Pray. Hope. And don't worry. This is the truth expressed by St. Padre Pio.

[umairlooms]

my girlfriend is a non muslim and I would probably describe her as being from the liberal breed of Europeans who have a spiritual side but cannot and do not want to conform to any organized religion. I myself call this is the European allergy to Religion and trace it back to the horrible role of the Church in Europe, especially Catholic Church as well as to the age of enlightenment in Europe which has made people believe they control their destiny themselves.
As someone who loves a non muslim, its not a good thought and though i used to be worried, I have now become numb

We can only warn, it is only Allah who shows the right path

[OmAbdullah]

my girlfriend is a non muslim and I would probably describe her as being from the liberal breed of Europeans who have a spiritual side but cannot and do not want to conform to any organized religion. I myself call this is the European allergy to Religion and trace it back to the horrible role of the Church in Europe, especially Catholic Church as well as to the age of enlightenment in Europe which has made people believe they control their destiny themselves.
As someone who loves a non muslim, its not a good thought and though i used to be worried, I have now become numb

We can only warn, it is only Allah who shows the right path

May Allah guide you, aameen!!!


Being a Muslim you have a girl friend???

This way is far from Islam!!!

[Pygoscelis]

Muslims come in many varieties, nbegam. I dated a Muslim woman for a couple of years, whilst I was not just not Muslim myself, but an atheist *gasp*. There were some issues with distant relatives who didn't approve, but she and her close relatives were liberal Muslims, which do exist. You may call them not Muslims at all, or laxed ones, but who is really to say. You find the same within most religions. Groups and subgroups and subgroups etc.

Honestly I previously dated a deaf girl (decades ago), and I got more flak from the deaf community (because I am not deaf) than I ever got from the Muslim community here in Canada.

[umairlooms]

May Allah guide you, aameen!!!


Being a Muslim you have a girl friend???

This way is far from Islam!!!

you are right

[OmAbdullah]

Muslims come in many varieties, nbegam. I dated a Muslim woman for a couple of years, whilst I was not just not Muslim myself, but an atheist *gasp*. There were some issues with distant relatives who didn't approve, but she and her close relatives were liberal Muslims, which do exist. You may call them not Muslims at all, or laxed ones, but who is really to say. You find the same within most religions. Groups and subgroups and subgroups etc.

Honestly I previously dated a deaf girl (decades ago), and I got more flak from the deaf community (because I am not deaf) than I ever got from the Muslim community here in Canada.

A Muslim may be like an empty box with a label "Muslim" on it. But in real sense, a Muslim is defined as the one who submits his/her will to the will of Allah. Then he/she follows the Holy Quraan in accordance with the Final Prophet Muhammad (salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam).

Again, this is not only a light matter, rather a true Muslim knows and believes that we all (mankind) are accountable in the life after death, and the reward and Punishment from Allah Almighty God shall be UNIQUE AND LASTING. Therefore a true Muslim takes the religion very seriously for his/her own benefit.

I am shocked to read that a Muslim woman was your girl friend. In fact I have heard of some Muslim boys having girl friends but never heard of a Muslim girl/woman having a boy friend.

May Allah guide our nation to the straight path of Islam. Surely, Hell is a very bad place to go to, therefore, I sincerely advise every human being to protect himself/herself from Allah's Anger here and in the Hereafter

[Zafran]

I don't find it credible that Islam can be said to be a religion of peace, Bhuddism for instance is, its history is overwhelmingly peacefull. When it has been corrupted for violent means it is obvious that this had no backing anywhere in any way . But Islam never has been peacefull, and today thousands of lives are lost by those claiming Islam as the motive to kill others. Unfortunately Islam has to take responsibility for this. The one fact that apostates are to be murdered is proof in itself.

I have studied Budhism and there is nothing in any mainstream text or practice that involves or seeks violence to anyone or anything. While in Islam brutality, slavery, and war are everywhere.

Please explain ?

That is not true Buddhism has had a history of violence - Look at Thailand, Japan, Mynmer, India and sri Lanka. Violence is backed by Buddhist monks historically and in modern history. its not a monolithic religion.

Islam is a religion of peace and war. Like any other religion it has rules for peace and what to do in times of war. Furthermore apostasy laws were like Laws of treason as empire and religion were together - similar to Christian and Jewish empires. If one leaves Islam then its their loss. God decides about them in the hereafter.

[OmAbdullah]

Yes I did say there has been violence in Buddhism, but there is nothing in any way that justifies it in the texts. Plus the scale is Lilliputian in comparison. When you compare apostacy with treason it doesn't fit, the apostate has done nothing to harm anyone, only stopped belief in something he was forced to believe under pain of death. That is not a freely held belief it has been indoctrinated from day one, and backed by fear of death. You can make anyone believe anything under those conditions.

1. Islam is not a man-made religion, all of its laws and commands are sent down by the same ONE, UNIQUE GOD Who had created Jesus without father and had made him a Prophet to guide the children of Isra'il. So we and all mankind including you have to follow the Laws of God Allah, If you don't believe and/or follow then you are surely choosing burning in Hell for ever and this is injustice with yourself.

2. Islam is a monotheistic religion. Buddhism has no comparison with Islam.

3. A Christian priest when accepted Islam, had to run in secret, to Saudi Arabia because the Christians were after him to kill him!!! Why????

A nun gave him refuge in some hidden place. Then she asked him why did he become Muslim? He pointed towards the cross that she was wearing as necklace and asked her, "If some one kills your father with pistol, then will you hate the pistol or love it?" She said that she would hate it. So she understood the stupidity of the conjecture that Satan has made to Christians. She also became Muslima and ran with him to take refuge in Saudi Arabia. They married together and Allah gave them children but they were always in fear from the Christians.


Today it is not the Muslims who are killing. This is a manifest lie and any just person will not say such words. Rather it is the Muslims who are killed every where only because of the faith of Islam. You must open your eyes and say what is true.

[Abz2000]

Is it possible that maybe American law (atheism?) is the only religion of peace on the planet? Or maybe that of their predecessors the British law, or maybe their predecessors that of the Romans (paganism/secularism/christianity?) Or maybe the atheism of athens (people worship/untethered democracy)
Islam is a global "religion" of justice and right conduct enjoined upon all of mankind by the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

[keiv]

I don't find it credible that Islam can be said to be a religion of peace, Bhuddism for instance is, its history is overwhelmingly peacefull. When it has been corrupted for violent means it is obvious that this had no backing anywhere in any way . But Islam never has been peacefull, and today thousands of lives are lost by those claiming Islam as the motive to kill others. Unfortunately Islam has to take responsibility for this. The one fact that apostates are to be murdered is proof in itself.

I have studied Budhism and there is nothing in any mainstream text or practice that involves or seeks violence to anyone or anything. While in Islam brutality, slavery, and war are everywhere.

Please explain ?

You are the one making the claim that "brutality, slavery and war are everywhere" in Islam so, why don't YOU explain what you mean? I guarantee all of what you have to say will be regurgitated material that's been spouted here over the years and I guarantee you won't accept any of the answers that were/are given. Please, explain to us your so called knowledge on the matter of violence in Islam.

[popsthebuilder]

Is it possible that maybe American law (atheism?) is the only religion of peace on the planet? Or maybe that of their predecessors the British law, or maybe their predecessors that of the Romans (paganism/secularism/christianity?) Or maybe the atheism of athens (people worship/untethered democracy)
Islam is a global "religion" of justice and right conduct enjoined upon all of mankind by the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

Based on Tue observable level of hatred and spite of many many atheists, and the fact that t isn't a religion, I would say no, it isn't possible at all. I would go further and say the "enlightenment" was more of the downfall of man.

Peace

[Abz2000]

Based on Tue observable level of hatred and spite of many many atheists, and the fact that t isn't a religion, I would say no, it isn't possible at all. I would go further and say the "enlightenment" was more of the downfall of man.

Peace

Separating concepts based upon labels wouldn't clarify much in such a comparison, it is much clearer and easier to evaluate when one uses "way of life" since the term "re.-legion" has certain stereotypical and prejudiced connotations attached to it despite the early usage having been utilized to refer to affairs of the society/community/legion.
bearing in mind that there was no separation in judean law until the occupation of the holy land by pagan rome, and even then, it was basically combined again in rome after much mixing and muddying - especually after nicea. This can be seen clearly in the fact that since the conquest of britain, the names of important political positions still contain "re-ligious" references such as "minister", the national anthem, the battle hymn of the republic in america, and various other references, there was never a clear separation, just a gradual morphing of "way of life".

Even vatican city is understood to be a country with it's own laws - despite it being the smallest on the planet, since they appeared to have some issues in separating between what was for ceasar and what was for God, the vatican ended up with a "country" spanning a vast .44 sq km to do "God's will on earth as it isn't in heaven" and the mafia at p2 lodge (who interestingly also refer to themseves as members of the order of black friars currently hold the remaing "crumbs under the table" which is italy. Refer to lateran treaty if interested. https://apps.cndls.georgetown.edu/pr...items/show/484
Even the vatican "country" has armed guards and soldiery (swiss guard).

Order of skull & bones - bush father and son, order of deMolay - clinton with all their occult pagan rituals also trace back to the templars so it is difficult to claim that there is a separation despite all the muddying, it all becomes easy to understand when "way of life" is used to research the situation objectively and without confusing compartmentalization, bait 'n' switch, spin, and semantics.

[Search]

:bism:

There are many reasons for this: Buddhists are 6% of the global population, and Muslims are in comparison 18%, or as I read 22% of the global population in another article. Plus, the Middle East has been a hot spot for a reason, and the reason is Western interference in the politics of ME nations for reasons that you yourself can Google and you'll be met with variety of explanations and depending on whom you believe you'll form your own conclusions; and if you even have a cursory knowledge of geopolitics and history, you'll understand the same (a) kind and (b) level of interference hasn't been extant with countries of substantial or even majority Buddhist populations in comparison to Muslim majority countries.

Therefore, you have the numbers and personal reading askew with Muslims seemingly more violent than Buddhist populations. Furthermore, if you study the religions independently with learned human beings, you'll find that both religions at the heart of the matter invite and advocate for peace; so, if that is the case, you'd have to conclude that the problem, as you may have guessed, stems from human beings themselves. I have my own theories about why human beings act in a violent manner in any religion or no religion, and I believe that has to a person's predisposition to acting out the violence rather than any religion or no religion's independent stance and advocacy of violence.

Plus the scale is Lilliputian in comparison.

[Pygoscelis]

I don't find it credible that Islam can be said to be a religion of peace, Bhuddism for instance is, its history is overwhelmingly peacefull.

Sorry, but Bhuddhism is not historically overwhelmingly peaceful. Maybe you are thinking of Jainism?

1. Islam is not a man-made religion, all of its laws and commands are sent down by the same ONE, UNIQUE GOD Who had created Jesus without father and had made him a Prophet to guide the children of Isra'il.

So you say and believe. Not all of us do.

So we and all mankind including you have to follow the Laws of God Allah, If you don't believe and/or follow then you are surely choosing burning in Hell for ever and this is injustice with yourself.

If you don't believe somebody exists, you can't follow or obey them, or choose against them. Nor can you make yourself believe to be true what you see as imaginary. Try it and let me know if you can do it. Pick any imaginary being from fiction or mythology, and make yourself believe it is real. Can you do it? No? Me neither. Now imagine if people who do believe it demand you change your life and follow rules they say are from this imaginary being. How would you address such people? Now imagine they tell you that if you don't obey what they tell you this imaginary being wants, you deserve to be tortured in hellfire forever.

Is it possible that maybe American law (atheism?) is the only religion of peace on the planet?

America is a country with God on the money, a church on every corner, and atheists demonized as the least liked religious category, even lower than Muslims (who take second lowest). Atheism is not America. Maybe you were thinking of Sweden or Denmark or New Zealand? And of course, as you know, atheism isn't a religion anyway, and people can find plenty of reasons to be hateful and violent aside from any religious influence, so atheism isn't peace.

Based on Tue observable level of hatred and spite of many many atheists, and the fact that t isn't a religion, I would say no, it isn't possible at all. I would go further and say the "enlightenment" was more of the downfall of man.

Peace

Sad that you can't legally hunt down the heathen infidels and burn them at the stake anymore? In the old days European Christians would "crusade" against the Muslim folks here and wish them dead merely for being Muslim and not worshiping as they did. Many of modern Christians also have that mindset, but thankfully, not as many as then. Modern day Muslims at their most violent in the middle east today don't compare to what the Christians in Europe once were when it comes to religious violence. Imagine Daesh, only Christian and everywhere and running world governments. That is what you long to go back to?

At least in the case of the violent Muslims in the middle east (note how most Muslims elsewhere are NOT in any way violent), they have some legitimate reasons to be upset and actual facts to twist into their anti-western and anti-kafir hate propaganda machine. Powerful western empires that constantly paint them as "axis of evil", etc, have carved up their lands and stolen their resources. What excuse did the medieval Christians have?

[popsthebuilder]

Sorry, but Bhuddhism is not historically overwhelmingly peaceful. Maybe you are thinking of Jainism?



So you say and believe. Not all of us do.



If you don't believe somebody exists, you can't follow or obey them, or choose against them. Nor can you make yourself believe to be true what you see as imaginary. Try it and let me know if you can do it. Pick any imaginary being from fiction or mythology, and make yourself believe it is real. Can you do it? No? Me neither. Now imagine if people who do believe it demand you change your life and follow rules they say are from this imaginary being. How would you address such people? Now imagine they tell you that if you don't obey what they tell you this imaginary being wants, you deserve to be tortured in hellfire forever.



America is a country with God on the money, a church on every corner, and atheists demonized as the least liked religious category, even lower than Muslims (who take second lowest). Atheism is not America. Maybe you were thinking of Sweden or Denmark or New Zealand? And of course, as you know, atheism isn't a religion anyway, and people can find plenty of reasons to be hateful and violent aside from any religious influence, so atheism isn't peace.



Sad that you can't legally hunt down the heathen infidels and burn them at the stake anymore? In the old days European Christians would "crusade" against the Muslim folks here and wish them dead merely for being Muslim and not worshiping as they did. Many of modern Christians also have that mindset, but thankfully, not as many as then. Modern day Muslims at their most violent in the middle east today don't compare to what the Christians in Europe once were when it comes to religious violence. Imagine Daesh, only Christian and everywhere and running world governments. That is what you long to go back to?

At least in the case of the violent Muslims in the middle east (note how most Muslims elsewhere are NOT in any way violent), they have some legitimate reasons to be upset and actual facts to twist into their anti-western and anti-kafir hate propaganda machine. Powerful western empires that constantly paint them as "axis of evil", etc, have carved up their lands and stolen their resources. What excuse did the medieval Christians have?

You lost me.

Who said anything about advocating violence on any level? Surely it was not me.

The crusades? Spanish inquisition, holocaust?

All the work of greed and pride and hunger for power, all of which are spoken against expressly in scripture and the Qur'an.

Please try not to conflate the acts of man with the will of GOD.

Peace

[Pygoscelis]

You lost me.

Who said anything about advocating violence on any level? Surely it was not me.

The crusades? Spanish inquisition, holocaust?

All the work of greed and pride and hunger for power, all of which are spoken against expressly in scripture and the Qur'an.

Please try not to conflate the acts of man with the will of GOD.

Peace

Peace. I recognize that you have not advocated violence in this thread (or ever as far as I am aware). I ask you to consider though that waxing nostalgic about pre-enlightenment Christian Europe in regard to atheists is similar to waxing nostalgic about colonial America in regard to the native american "savages". The actions you speak of may not have sound footing in the Bible the way you read it, but others who called themselves Christians, who carried out these acts disagreed, and harkening back to that age may not be smiled on, especially by the atheists you reference (who were burned at the stake as heretics at that time). If you find some atheists today to be overly upset and aggressive regarding religion, I submit to you that there is a centuries long historical basis for it.

[MidnightRose]

If you don't believe somebody exists, you can't follow or obey them, or choose against them. Nor can you make yourself believe to be true what you see as imaginary. Try it and let me know if you can do it. Pick any imaginary being from fiction or mythology, and make yourself believe it is real. Can you do it? No? Me neither. Now imagine if people who do believe it demand you change your life and follow rules they say are from this imaginary being. How would you address such people? Now imagine they tell you that if you don't obey what they tell you this imaginary being wants, you deserve to be tortured in hellfire forever.

Greetings Pygo,

The belief in an All-Powerful Supreme Being does have an immense impact on the human psyche in a variety of ways.

While the existence of an unseen Creator may seem imaginary or magical, the practical foundation of this in relation to Islam is not.

As you know, there was a tangible entity that set this foundation – a person named Muhammad :saws:. He told us about this unseen Creator.

He is reported to have had impeccable integrity. This reputation was established over the course of 40 years prior to him announcing his mission.

For example, the following incident took place when he began preaching openly:

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
When the Verse:-- 'And warn your tribe of near kindred.' (26.214) was revealed. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) went out, and when he had ascended As-Safa mountain, he shouted, "O Sabahah!" The people said, "Who is that?" "Then they gathered around him, whereupon he said, "Do you see? If I inform you that cavalrymen are proceeding up the side of this mountain, will you believe me?" They said, "We have never heard you telling a lie." Then he said, "I am a plain warner to you of a coming severe punishment." Abu Lahab said, "May you perish! You gathered us only for this reason? " Then Abu Lahab went away. So the "Surat:--ul--LAHAB" 'Perish the hands of Abu Lahab!' (111.1) was revealed.

Source: Sahih al-Bukhari

My confidence in relating the above account has been succinctly expressed in the following quote:

“Muslims have an entire science dedicated to the validation of Hadith and its transmitters, known as 'Ilm Ar-Rijaal. Each and every Hadith in existence has been carefully studied and scrutinized, and sorted according to its strength in terms of authenticity, narrators and origin.”

Source

The integrity of Muhammad :saws: is a precondition to the message he preached. Thus, the foundation of belief in an unseen Creator is based on a tangible entity.

Although it’s possible for analogies in relation to this to be made with other personalities and dogmas, it is believed that definitive judgments should be based on a comprehensive understanding of the Islamic tradition.

Sometimes the key to understanding something may lie in practical exposure. That said, there are places where one can gain an understanding of the man that delivered the message from traditional subject matter experts in person.

I see you’re in Ontario. If you’re interested I know a place in Chatham where you can meet these engaging, non-judgmental, and friendly people.

The sole purpose of this would be to verify the knowledge base relating to Muhammad’s :saws: integrity.

[ardianto]

Is it possible that maybe American law (atheism?) is the only religion of peace on the planet? Or maybe that of their predecessors the British law, or maybe their predecessors that of the Romans (paganism/secularism/christianity?) Or maybe the atheism of athens (people worship/untethered democracy)

There is difference between secularism which is put religion only in personal area and does not affect public policy, and atheism which is a 'belief' that God doesn't exist. USA is not atheist country, but secular country. And people in ancient Athens were not atheists, but pagans.

[Pygoscelis]

I see you’re in Ontario. If you’re interested I know a place in Chatham where you can meet these engaging, non-judgmental, and friendly people.

The sole purpose of this would be to verify the knowledge base relating to Muhammad’s :saws: integrity.

No need. I don't doubt your sincere belief in Muhammad's integrity. I don't have any reason to question his integrity myself either. I also don't have any particular reason to question the integrity of Jesus, the Budha, or any other spiritual icon or founder of a religion. But that doesn't make what they believed about theology to be any more convincing to me.

[MidnightRose]

No need. I don't doubt your sincere belief in Muhammad's integrity. I don't have any reason to question his integrity myself either. I also don't have any particular reason to question the integrity of Jesus, the Budha, or any other spiritual icon or founder of a religion. But that doesn't make what they believed about theology to be any more convincing to me.

From my side, this offer to you will always remain open.

[ardianto]

From my side, this offer to you will always remain open.

Pygoscelis is not someone without belief like people who are in spiritual quest, but he embrace his own belief which called Atheism.

I know Pygoscelis since few years ago and I see him as someone who has respect to people from different belief. So we must respect him too.

:)

[Abz2000]

There is difference between secularism which is put religion only in personal area and does not affect public policy, and atheism which is a 'belief' that God doesn't exist. USA is not atheist country, but secular country. And people in ancient Athens were not atheists, but pagans.

You would have to delve further into the meanings and fundamentals behind the terms "saecularis" , "secular", "kafir", and "atheism" rather than just make bland claims without substance or basis.

The term "kafir" doesn't just mean "disbeliever", it means "one who covers the facts", rejects the truth, denies the truth, which seems to be why many translators have chosen the term "unbeliever" over the more grammatical "disbeliever".
Behind the term, there is the essence of foolishly and irrationally rejecting the sovereignty of the Creator of the heavens and the earth - out of narrow-minded perceived self interest and desire for lustful deviations - which is why you'll find many bickering over irrelevant points and creating contentions over nothing simply for the sake of contention and polarization when simply admitting to plain to see facts would no longer leave room for the claim of doubt.

When some crook tries to impose "secularism" (rejection of the sovereignty of God) upon the masses, it is "relating to/regarding/re." "legion/masses/community".
They play you with words, look at it simply and honestly.
The kings new clothes is a good example.

But hey, when you live in an orwellian dystopia where crooked usurpers of authority tell you to give up your "liberty" for "freedom" and you acquiesce or even willingly comply, what's to be expected?

One must be made aware of the fact that pharaoh tried to mirror God by accusing Musa of being "min al kaafireen" denoting rejection, ingratitude, rebellion in the kingdom and land which fell between east and west which Musa later made clear to him belongs to God who is the Master and ruler, the threat to imprison him came only then, and not when Musa proclaimed God's rulership of and kingship over the heavens and earth, and even pharaoh and his ancestors - which appeared to seem distant and irrelevant to Pharaoh.

This affair is a lot deeper than a wishy washy surface game where anyone can do anything they like.

And people in ancient Athens were not Atheists but Pagans

Lol, the term atheist comes from Athens, just as "nazarenes" comes from the dude from Nazareth, the word itself is greek and the athenians are the first recorded to have attempted to impose a notion of sovereignty of man, where the masses are led to believe they are running the affairs with absolute unbridled reign. The re-legion of "ye are gods", Turned out to be a disaster made totally apparent as a means of appeasement during control in the age of information and the ability of the common citizen and the sceptic journalist to play back obama's anti-war rhetoric lol.


Athenian democracy developed around the fifth century B.C. in the Greek city-state(known as a*polis) of*Athens, comprising the city of Athens and the surrounding territory of*Attica*and is the first known*democracy*in the world. Other Greek cities set up democracies, most following the Athenian model, but none are as well documented as Athens.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy

Atheism(derived from the*Ancient Greek*ἄθεος*atheos*meaning "without gods; godless; secular; denying or disdaining the gods, especially officially sanctioned gds"[1]) is the absence or rejection of the belief that*deities*exist. The English term was used at least as early as the sixteenth century and atheistic ideas and their influence have a longer history. Over the centuries, atheists have supported their lack of belief in gods through a variety of avenues, including scientific, philosophical and ideological notions. Philosophical atheist thought began to appear in Europe and Asia in the sixth or fifth century BCE.

*https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

Similar to how the term "turk" was once used to describe Muslims though in the case of atheism, the land of origin and the meaning somehow bridged, and even if those people around the world were unfamiliar with the greek language, they would likely have known the character of a re-legious-ly atheist and secular person from athens. It was a habit.

[popsthebuilder]

Peace. I recognize that you have not advocated violence in this thread (or ever as far as I am aware). I ask you to consider though that waxing nostalgic about pre-enlightenment Christian Europe in regard to atheists is similar to waxing nostalgic about colonial America in regard to the native american "savages". The actions you speak of may not have sound footing in the Bible the way you read it, but others who called themselves Christians, who carried out these acts disagreed, and harkening back to that age may not be smiled on, especially by the atheists you reference (who were burned at the stake as heretics at that time). If you find some atheists today to be overly upset and aggressive regarding religion, I submit to you that there is a centuries long historical basis for it.

Entitlement is like a plaque, and never needed for peaceful equitable advancement. Atheist are selfish and overly prideful in many cases. Peace will never come from spite, revenge, or thinking someone owes you something. The atrocities that tool place by the hands of man under the guise of guise of faith in GOD and following the right direction is neither here nor there. As if "Christians" are the cause of all the world's problems.

Greed is the problem on all levels. Manipulation of self by greed and lack of honest introspection and disregard of the conscience are the problem, not Faith in a higher power, creative force, or GOD.

2¢

Peace

[MidnightRose]

Pygoscelis is not someone without belief like people who are in spiritual quest, but he embrace his own belief which called Atheism.

I know Pygoscelis since few years ago and I see him as someone who has respect to people from different belief. So we must respect him too.

:)

It's unfortunate that inviting someone to learn about Islam is seen as disrespect.

[ardianto]

It's unfortunate that inviting someone to learn about Islam is seen as disrespect.

What I mean is, if someone not interested to come to Islam, we should not urge him, because we must be feel uncomfortable if Christian urge us to come to Christianity.

I know personally with few converts in my place. No one of them become Muslim because a Muslim 'chased' them. But because Allah gave them hidayah that made them come to Islam without being invited by anyone.

And special for Pygoscelis, he already know personally with few Muslims in his place.

[Abz2000]

What I mean is, if someone not interested to come to Islam, we should not urge him, because we must be feel uncomfortable if Christian urge us to come to Christianity.

I know personally with few converts in my place. No one of them become Muslim because a Muslim 'chased' them. But because Allah gave them hidayah that made them come to Islam without being invited by anyone.

And special for Pygoscelis, he already know personally with few Muslims in his place.

Is it your own opinion that people shouldn't be urged to be saved from hellfire and be granted paradise, and that we shouldn't come to unity through submission to the law of God?
Is it a valid opinion in light of the book of Allah and the sunnah and seerah of His final messenger pbuh?

What was the method of dawah of the Messenger of Allah pbuh and that of his companions under the Islamic State?
Or what about his (pbuh) predecessors (pbut)?

Also refer to Quran ch27 v13-44
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/27.htm
And ch22 v8-9

[Pygoscelis]

Greed is the problem on all levels. Manipulation of self by greed and lack of honest introspection and disregard of the conscience are the problem, not Faith in a higher power, creative force, or GOD.

Greed and disregard of conscience are indeed problems, but that is no more prevalent in atheists than in theists. Manipulation of others through authoritarian belief and tribal us vs them dynamics, and lack of critical reasoning and skepticism are also problems, and things like religion and nationalism can play right into those dynamics if you are not careful.

[popsthebuilder]

Authoritarian viewpoint nor tribal, or us vs them mentality have any place in the peaceful advancement and equality of humanity. Any who possess such qualities are indeed being manipulated. Faith, or lack there of had little to do with any of it as an atheist and theist can both have these negative qualities. One is wrongly attributing them to GOD and the other generally acts as if it is the survival of the fittest without regard of survival past self.

Peace

[Pygoscelis]

What I mean is, if someone not interested to come to Islam, we should not urge him, because we must be feel uncomfortable if Christian urge us to come to Christianity.

This is an interesting point, that has always left me a little conflicted. I take no offense at what najimuddin wrote, but I can understand how some may. On the one hand it is an act of love and kindness to share your faith and try to save others from what you see as the wrong path (and one with negative consequences for the person). On the other hand it completely disrespects and disregards what the person already believes and attaches value to. I remind you how so many Muslims are so hypersensitive about their own traditions and beliefs, to the point that I'm not to do something as simple as draw Muhammad. As ardianto said, how do you feel when Christians try to convert you to Christianity and turn you away from Islam?

The term "kafir" doesn't just mean "disbeliever", it means "one who covers the facts", rejects the truth, denies the truth, which seems to be why many translators have chosen the term "unbeliever" over the more grammatical "disbeliever".
Behind the term, there is the essence of foolishly and irrationally rejecting the sovereignty of the Creator of the heavens and the earth - out of narrow-minded perceived self interest and desire for lustful deviations - which is why you'll find many bickering over irrelevant points and creating contentions over nothing simply for the sake of contention and polarization when simply admitting to plain to see facts would no longer leave room for the claim of doubt.

So "Kafir" means basically the same as "Infidel"? This is interesting. So I am not a "Kafir" after all, as I don't reject or deny truth.

One of the most common errors theists make in regard to atheists is this constant insistence that atheists reject, rebel against, or are unfaithful to God. We're not. We can't be. You can't reject, rebel against, or be unfaithful to what doesn't exist, and as far as we know, God doesn't exist. You can see us as completely wrong about that, spiritually blind, or whatever, but to insist that we believe what we don't and that we are lying about it... that's pretty offensive right there.

[MidnightRose]

What I mean is, if someone not interested to come to Islam, we should not urge him, because we must be feel uncomfortable if Christian urge us to come to Christianity.

I know personally with few converts in my place. No one of them become Muslim because a Muslim 'chased' them. But because Allah gave them hidayah that made them come to Islam without being invited by anyone.

And special for Pygoscelis, he already know personally with few Muslims in his place.

I just kept the door open, that's all.

[Abz2000]

This is an interesting point, that has always left me a little conflicted. I take no offense at what najimuddin wrote, but I can understand how some may. On the one hand it is an act of love and kindness to share your faith and try to save others from what you see as the wrong path (and one with negative consequences for the person). On the other hand it completely disrespects and disregards what the person already believes and attaches value to. I remind you how so many Muslims are so hypersensitive about their own traditions and beliefs, to the point that I'm not to do something as simple as draw Muhammad. As ardianto said, how do you feel when Christians try to convert you to Christianity and turn you away from Islam?

one cannot compare chalk with cheese based upon nutritional benefits or method of use by assuming them both to be the same thing, as mentioned earlier, it is just a mechanism for contention, opposition and denial.
the Prophet pbuh is worth more to us than our mothers, and it is haraam - unlawful to insult his character, please do not be spitefully disresptectful because there is no benefit, rather a lot of harm in doing so, the fact that you pretend to advocate peaceful coexistence and respect amongst people while at the same time insult the messenger of God is proof of duplicity and hidden malice. If you thout it was ok to draw a picture of pygo's mom with her knickers on and broadcast it, i would have to say that you've lost a sense of dignity that God bestowed upon human beings, but then, the concept of sacred honour can't mean much to a poor debased infidel.
Be not like those who forgot God, so they forgot themselves, they are the transgressors
.

So "Kafir" means basically the same as "Infidel"? This is interesting. So I am not a "Kafir" after all, as I don't reject or deny truth.

One of the most common errors theists make in regard to atheists is this constant insistence that atheists reject, rebel against, or are unfaithful to God. We're not. We can't be. You can't reject, rebel against, or be unfaithful to what doesn't exist, and as far as we know, God doesn't exist. You can see us as completely wrong about that, spiritually blind, or whatever, but to insist that we believe what we don't and that we are lying about it... that's pretty offensive right there.

Funny when someone would attempt to justify their denial of the truth that something existed while trying to lean on it 's grace as if it were a bannister.
Even funnier that they throw the correct guidance behind their backs and try to use it as a magical compass, a compass which they try to manipulate, trick, confuse and force to point in the wrong direction so that they can walk in the wrong direction, even more funnier when it points north, and they want to go south, so they try to pretend to themselves that the arrow points the opposite way.

9.*Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
10.*In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
11.*When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
12.*Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
13.*When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?"
Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.

Quran Chapter 2:10-13

You're using 1960s 70s kufr arguments in plain sight dude, and only discrediting yourself in the process, i'm using those from 1400 years ago, and they're eternal and obvious to the beholders lol.
There's a huge difference between a classic muscle car and a brand new helium filled toy balloon.

[Zafran]

There is difference between secularism which is put religion only in personal area and does not affect public policy, and atheism which is a 'belief' that God doesn't exist. USA is not atheist country, but secular country. And people in ancient Athens were not atheists, but pagans.

Or atheism is a disbelief - the way we disbelieve in the Hindu Gods, or the pagan Gods of the Greeks etc.

You're using 1960s 70s kufr arguments in plain sight dude, and only discrediting yourself in the process, i'm using those from 1400 years ago, and they're eternal and obvious to the beholders lol.
There's a huge difference between a classic muscle car and a brand new helium filled toy balloon.

Are you trying to give Dawah or what?

[Abz2000]

Are you trying to give Dawah or what?

Yup, dawah consists of proclaiming the message of Allah clearly and dealing with attempts at foolish contention with what is appropriate for the listener/debater to understand.
Read the story of Ibrahim pbuh and the disputer if uncertain.

Here's one where Abu Bakr as Siddeeq lost sorely and even had the messenger of Allah pbuh smiling, though his colorful response to the impudent false words of Urwa ibn Masu'ud at hudaybiyyah would probably even make qe2 blush



20.Know that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying, (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children.
Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure (for the devotees of Allah.. And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception?
21.*Be foremost (in seeking) Forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth, prepared for those who believe in Allah and His Messengers:
that is the Grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom he pleases: and Allah is the Lord of Grace abounding.

QURAN Chapter 57 verse 20-21

Also check out some different methods of the messenger of Allah if uncertain, you will often notice what sometimes appears like light hearted competition but with serious and even deadly tones, the rhyme, eloquence and rhythm canot be captured in english but the translation should suffice as to depth and effect:

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...psvtvgmzqp.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...psow8joqng.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps7l5tozmr.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...psui4u7i92.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugBUkEf2fAs

[Pygoscelis]

you pretend to advocate peaceful coexistence and respect amongst people while at the same time insult the messenger of God

I don't insult the messenger of God. I insult you. And I do it by merely existing. You have said it numerous times. Nothing short of becoming Muslim is good enough for you to stop your hatred, and becoming a Muslim is something that I can not do, because I don't believe your God exists. I see your God as imaginary. I know that eats you up inside and I know you can't accept it, but it is true. And it being true, means that I can't reject, rebel against, or be unfaithful to your God. I could lie and pretend to believe in God, and pretend to be a Muslim I suppose, repeating words I don't mean or agree with, like I was an actor in a movie, but would that not be the biggest insult of all to genuine Muslims everywhere? And wouldn't it be an insult to your God, if he does exist? Surely he'd see right through such dishonesty.

[popsthebuilder]

I don't insult the messenger of God. I insult you. And I do it by merely existing. You have said it numerous times. Nothing short of becoming Muslim is good enough for you to stop your hatred, and becoming a Muslim is something that I can not do, because I don't believe your God exists. I see your God as imaginary. I know that eats you up inside and I know you can't accept it, but it is true. And it being true, means that I can't reject, rebel against, or be unfaithful to your God. I could lie and pretend to believe in God, and pretend to be a Muslim I suppose, repeating words I don't mean or agree with, like I was an actor in a movie, but would that not be the biggest insult of all to genuine Muslims everywhere? And wouldn't it be an insult to your God, if he does exist? Surely he'd see right through such dishonesty.

I'm just guessing here, but you believe in evolution based on supporting scientific evidence right?

You most likely admit to yourself that you don't know the origins of existence? That is an understandable position.

So it is safe to say that though we don't understand the origins of existence or the limits of it, then we can't rule out a creative force at some point. A cause for the effect that is observable existence.

You don't find it odd that all peaceful faiths throughout time and culture convey similar messages? I know that "religion" has been lead astray in many places, forms, and ways, but you should try not to let that blind you or cause bias in your thought processes in reference to One Creator GOD. Names for God are in themselves a means of division for the acquisition of power or wealth or subjugation. Based on core scriptures and the teachings that can be extracted from them, and the fact that they all convey a similar message for similar reasons lends credence to my Faith in One Creator GOD.

Sorry, kinda going off on a tangent I guess.

Peace

[Pygoscelis]

Hi pops,

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be looked on fondly if I went into why I don't agree with what you say, or gave reasons for not believing in Gods. This isn't a comparative religion forum. My simple point was that I don't believe in God, and some seem unable to believe or accept that, insisting on painting myself and other atheists into a position none of us hold (by definition). My other point was that if Muslims expect to be treated with sensitivity and respect, they should respect those of us who are not Muslim as well, and that includes taking us at our word etc.

[Search]

:bism:

In this post, I really feel what you're saying because as a former atheist I felt the same way.

To be honest, until I started practicing Islam, I wouldn't have fully understood why people would be interested in sharing their religion - however, seriously, take it as a compliment and testament to your goodness or something attractive in your personality that would motivate someone to share something that they consider valuable to them.

That said, I can completely understand your sensitivity because I felt the same way, because though I had Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Jewish and atheist/agnostic friends in college, as you can imagine, the only two types that inclined towards sharing the religion were the Muslim and Christian ones. That is understandable because only those two religions are into proselytizing, which I think is great in some ways, but at the same time, I disagree so many times with the approach that I see some individuals adopt in this process.

For the others in this thread (and I'm talking just generally, not specifically not to anyone here, please understand) I'd just like to take a moment to talk about atheism. People believe that atheism involves actually denying some religion or truth or Supreme Being. For some, I don't know, it really might be the case. But you have to understand that there are atheists of different stripes. People are atheists for many different reasons, and actually some of them truly, really, actually do not believe and are not denying anything because they really don't think there is anything to deny. I know this because I was an atheist.

Spiritually, in Islam, lack of belief makes sense because people have to recognize that belief is in the heart than then is impressed onto the mind's workings; so, if someone lacks a belief, then the person is also rejecting from the heart and mind the belief because it may not seem natural to that person. This does not mean that the person is bad or doesn't have morals or is somehow inherently evil; to be honest, I have experienced people having implied the first certainly in my case when I was an atheist, and to be honest, I was offended because obviously this was IRL. I was in my mind like, hey, I give charity, and I'm a good person, like not harming anyone, and I'm not committing crimes - so, how am I a bad person? And now as a Muslim, I feel more strongly that we should not judge who is going to be suffering in eternity and who is going to be in bliss - because simply, God proposes to judge mankind on Judgment Day, and it's only human beings who insist on judging human this ephemeral moment.

Not to mention, one of the things I used to dislike about adherents of different religions is the utter hypocrisy, basically trying to teach something that is not in tune with personal character. For example, I didn't have to read all different religious scriptures to know that backbiting fellow friends and others was wrong; and yet the people in question would do that, then expect me as an atheist to somehow be attracted to the religion in question. I'm sorry, but I always felt that was strange.

First, I'd like to emphasize that people IRL will learn more from you in three days of interacting with you, basically observing you, your character, your manners, your general speech, general actions than to have you say something specific or feel-good about the religion; and honestly, I'm a Muslim today because of Islam, because I studied Islam on my own, and not any Muslim because I didn't find Muslims of the caliber that really Islam asks Muslims to maintain.

So, if you want the best for someone, atheist or not, be patient and let that person find his or her own path and know that Allah is working in his/her life as well and simply make heartfelt duas (supplications) for that person; otherwise, in consistent arguing or debating or ad hominem or trying to win, you're not really showing any true caring for that person because whether you recognize or not you might honestly just be motivated by ego or self-righteousness and not actually piety and selflessness.

If someone wants to talk about deen, that's mostly fine, I guess, but to first talk about Hell just wrings not a good feeling in any person. For example, Prophet Muhammad :saws: for first 13 years talked about the Oneness of God, then only about other things. Imagine. And many times, people today want to talk about Hell before even talking about the mercy and greatness and love of Allah - I don't know, I just wish people wouldn't do that and realize how arrogant that sounds to a person who is supposed to be invited to Islam.

Finally, I think it's really important to understand and respect the humanness of every human being, regardless of whether this is a person of faith or no faith; at the end of the day, I'm more of the type of person who believes in a righteous person planting good seeds in everyone's life, and letting Allah germinate them into fruition, and maybe one day that will translate into belief for some of the persons in whom you recognized humanness.

Thanks for letting me ramble, guys; I love IB.

This is an interesting point, that has always left me a little conflicted. I take no offense at what najimuddin wrote, but I can understand how some may. On the one hand it is an act of love and kindness to share your faith and try to save others from what you see as the wrong path (and one with negative consequences for the person). On the other hand it completely disrespects and disregards what the person already believes and attaches value to. I remind you how so many Muslims are so hypersensitive about their own traditions and beliefs, to the point that I'm not to do something as simple as draw Muhammad. As ardianto said, how do you feel when Christians try to convert you to Christianity and turn you away from Islam?



So "Kafir" means basically the same as "Infidel"? This is interesting. So I am not a "Kafir" after all, as I don't reject or deny truth.

One of the most common errors theists make in regard to atheists is this constant insistence that atheists reject, rebel against, or are unfaithful to God. We're not. We can't be. You can't reject, rebel against, or be unfaithful to what doesn't exist, and as far as we know, God doesn't exist. You can see us as completely wrong about that, spiritually blind, or whatever, but to insist that we believe what we don't and that we are lying about it... that's pretty offensive right there.

[Abz2000]

The Law of God as clearly defined in the Quran and Sunnah have been sent down in order to be obeyed in humility, we all stand to gain from the coherence, unity, harmony, and assistance that comes with it. It also helps settle differences between nations and individuals based upon justice, sincerity, truth and good conduct.
Allah tells His messenger to ask the disputers to produce a book that guides better to the path of justice and righteousness if they are truthful in their claim of doubting Allah's revelation, all that they have been able to produce in antithesis is confusion and corruption.
The mushrikeen went from enforcing long created myths claimed to have been prescribed by idols and ancestral folklore - to quickly writing up laws when and where it pleased the lusts and vain desires of any pretender to authority and religiously adhered to them. (In the name of the lords - to-in the name of the law)
They then saw the danger of such brazen vandalism and resorted to writing constitutions to which they'd religiously adhere, only for such in the moment pieces to become obsolete within a few centuries.
and now again, they have resorted to brazen vandalism and brash lies in face of a very observant world.
there is no room for argument against the truth and hujjah of Allah, it only takes a calm and objective mind to see this after taking historic and current events into the equation, nor am i claiming to be an angel, and neither was i upon this path all my life, i have suffered much from the confused and corrupted ways in which i grew up and cannot be accused of being "tribal" or "stubborn in patriotic ways".

That's some part of the logic besides the force behind the law of Allah.
there are severe consequences in this world and in eternity for straying from the natural laws of Allah and refusing to stop, consider and repent of kufr and foolishness.
The law of Allah applies to the king and he commoner alike and has no room for injustice, usurpation, and weilding of authority whilst changing the laws which were written on whims in the first place - for the sake of whims.
One cannot claim to disbelieve in the law of Allah and therefore claim immunity from it after He has sent down clear signs and wisdom, the problem becomes even more magnified when such people in denial attempt to claim scientifically objective high ground in their position whilst openly concealing the truth that is self-evident to all, such behaviour only makes clear their false position and hidden malicious and dubious objectives to the whole of mankind and they bear witness to standing upon falsehood and injustice within themselves before God from whom nothing whatsoever is hidden whether in the heavens or on and in the earth.
Best to stop playing around in falsehood and corruption and submit to God's universal guidance and wisdom, thereby collectively attaining success in this world and unending benefits and happiness in eternity, and be saved from the humiliating result of insistence upon self evident falsehood and the corruption, confusion and disharmony that inevitably comes with it in this world, and the severe chastisement that awaits the unrepentant wrongdoers after perfectly just judgement in eternity.

Nobody has a right to disobey the universal laws of Allah just because they disagree with them - think.
The facts become even more self evident when someone who claims to be tolerant and liberal demands that people submit to a confused hotchpotch of regularly switched edicts written by those people who are considered criminals by their very own standards- under threat of chastisement, electrocution, gassing, poison injection, and other forms of administering death and torture - psychological and physical. When such man made whimsical edicts are at regular variance with each other across imaginary borders of fiefdoms and protection rackets drawn by the very same people, even if masses of people and minorities disagree, object or reject the authority of such criminals.
Look at how they claim justice, progress, and scientific objectivity, yet when they get questioned on obviously plain to see immoral and unjust acts, they resort to religiously presenting laws like their ancestors previously used idols, laws unable to see or hear, speak, benefit or harm, carved by themselves or their predecessors who were people of the same authority as them, laws which they claim must be adhered to despite the injustice, laws which they regularly ignore or twist, as justification for their crimes, and when that too is questioned, just resort to writing new laws or executive orders or state of emergency open season after false flags perpetrated by themselves, to adhere to in order to prevent their acts from condemning themselves:
Recall that when obama could find no constitutional or lawful excuses for his murder of the respected activist and vocal american scholar anwar al awlaki who regularly condemned the crimes of obama and his henchmen and incited masses against the corrupt kafir criminals, obama just claimed "he was a threat" and the whitehouses ex-spokesman claimed the that 16 year old abd ar rahman who was murdered two weeks later "should have had a more responsible father".

Look at how silly the situation of collectively enforced kufr religion has become:

[Pygoscelis]

One cannot claim to disbelieve in the law of Allah and therefore claim immunity from it after He has sent down clear signs and wisdom, the problem becomes even more magnified when such people in denial attempt to claim scientifically objective high ground in their position whilst openly concealing the truth that is self-evident to all, such behaviour only makes clear their false position and hidden malicious and dubious objectives to the whole of mankind and they bear witness to standing upon falsehood and injustice within themselves before God from whom nothing whatsoever is hidden whether in the heavens or on and in the earth.

And there it is again. The desperate need to believe that atheists don't exist, and that we all must secretly believe in your God.

I suppose that I can be dismissed as a western liberal kaffir, so I must be an insidious dirty liar... but what of Search? Here you have a fellow Muslim saying he used to not believe in God before he had his spiritual awakening. Is that as easy to dismiss? Is he pretending that he didn't used to believe, when in fact he believed all along? To what end?

The psychology of this fascinates me. In politics I am a liberal. Conservatives don't usually accuse me of really being a conservative and pretending to be liberal. In hockey I am a Toronto Maple Leafs fan. Boston Bruins fans don't accuse me of secretly being a Bruins fan and only pretending to be a Leafs fan. Why is it different when it comes to theism? Why this dire need to believe that nobody could truly not believe in God? Does it somehow threaten your faith?

Or... what if... maybe Abz is not a true Muslim, and only pretending to be Muslim so he can try to tell actual Muslims how they should behave! :omg: Or maybe to make Muslims look bad so people like Donald Trump can point to him. You are really an atheist, right Abz? This is all an act, right? You can come on out and admit it now. Terrible atheists like you are always telling lies, Abz. Perhaps you should accept Jesus Christ as you personal lord and saviour and stop your lying ways. :D

Note for the sarcasm impaired: The paragraph immediately above may be sarcasm.

[Abz2000]

Lol are you expecting a reply?

Might as well add that the same claims were uttered in the past and appear to have been passed down as a heirloom, claims such as "he's dividing everyone with his call that God is One.


The desert Arabs say, "We believe."
Say (to them), "You have no faith; but (only) say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah,'
For not yet has Faith entered your hearts.
But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Quran 49:14

As you can see, the social requirement is that people submit to God's laws and conduct themselves in line with the Quran and Sunnah to the best of their sincere ability.
If you reject the truth in your heart, it is your own problem for which God will judge you, but it is unlawful to walk around naked in public, amongst other just and civilized Islamic statutes.

[Pygoscelis]

If you reject the truth in your heart,

But I am not rejecting the truth in my heart. Perhaps you could say I am blind to the truth, or ignorant of the truth, but I'm not rejecting it, as from my perspective there is no it to reject. That is what you are incapable of recognizing. I find that fascinating. You need me being rebellious and disobedient, and dishonest about it, rather than just me being wrong. Why is that? Some other Muslims here don't seem to have this problem. Are you insecure in your faith?

[Abz2000]

Lying will only compoud the problems of the one who lies, first thing to do is admit to yourself is that kufr is denial, especially after the clear signs that have reached you, the next effort is to attempt to walk upon the straight path.
Most importantly, don't harm the Muslims, problem is that kufr is injustice and infidelity in and of itself so ultimately you'll end up doing injustice upon your own nafs and the lack/absence of fidelity will harm others.
sad is the situation of the kafir in this world and in eternity.
Ponder within yourself, of what value is the oath of someone who considers adultery to be a good thing, then consider, what of the one who shows infidelity to his Lord and Cherisher, his Creator and sustainer?

Does the vessel say of the potter, he exists not and never did exist?
What a foolish vessel it would be.

[SSHorror]

I cannot be part of Christianity or any religion that has shed blood, I'm not judging, but I believe every human life is gods, we have no right to destroy his creation, for we are not our own, we are his. One god, one truth, but no one sees, the two greatest commandments as spoken by Jesus, love your neighbor as your own flesh, and love The Lord your god with all your heart mind and strength. So god wants us to love one another, not to kill one another. All of the prophets call for love and obedience. I don't understand destroying gods creation, or hate, or evil. But god only wants us to love him and all others.

Religion is not the cause of the shed of blood. Human desires are and humans will use anything from religion to politics to advance an agenda. Should we reject democracy because of politics being used to cause war? No, so it's stupid to reject religion because someone in the past decided to use it for bad.

[SSHorror]

You know I see atheists (and it's normally atheists) always blaming religion for bad things, citing that that's why they would refuse to ever follow such a system even if they did believe in a god. It's ironic because these very same people often will not condemn communism which has continuously killed to advance its ideology and in fact, it has killed more than any religion. Perhaps they refuse to condemn it because communism is a anti-religious political system which teaches that a utopia can be achieved but only if we free ourselves from capitalism and religion. Now while there's many atheists who aren't communist, I have a hard time seeing many disagree with the idea that the world would be a utopia without religion. That's what many seem to naively believe.

[Pygoscelis]

You know I see atheists (and it's normally atheists) always blaming religion for bad things, citing that that's why they would refuse to ever follow such a system even if they did believe in a god.

I do not blame religion for most of the horrors done in its name, though I do blame the authoritarianism and tribalism that religion often fosters, and the literal demonization of the outgroup. No, religion isn't the only tool for that. Nationalism is another.

It's ironic because these very same people often will not condemn communism which has continuously killed to advance its ideology and in fact, it has killed more than any religion. Perhaps they refuse to condemn it because communism is a anti-religious political system which teaches that a utopia can be achieved but only if we free ourselves from capitalism and religion.

This is incorrect in a number of ways.

First, I and many other atheists oppose communism as a system of government for a nation. It can work in small groups (such as families and religious communes), but breaks down in large groups, once empathy fades and people stop feeling related and start seeing others within their own tribe as strangers (such as in large cities or nations).

Second, Communism has not "continuously killed". Amish communes, family unit communes haven't killed anybody so far as I am aware. Communism is not the Soviet Union anymore than Capitalism is the USA. They are just one example of each, and neither is a pure example (there is plenty of socialism in the US - from public libraries to the police and military). Nor has communism "killed more than any religion". One only needs to look back on the Christian crusaders and missionaries and "manifest destiny". And communism itself is no more to blame for such atrocity as religion itself is. It is the people running either, the tribalism involved in either and the authoritarianism involved in either that can become the problem.

Third, Communism need not have anything to do with anti-religion. It can be completely religion based in fact. It just means that the group as a whole (called the state) owns everything and there is no private ownership. In small groups where everybody knows and cares for each other, it works just fine. If you and your housemates (or your family) don't label everything in the house and in the fridge and pantry demanding nobody else use it, and you can all eat and use what you want when you want, you are living in a communist household. It works on that level, and on a slightly larger level than that (imagine your neighbours and friends working with you the same way). It falls apart once you get too big.

[SSHorror]

Second, Communism has not "continuously killed". Amish communes, family unit communes haven't killed anybody so far as I am aware. Communism is not the Soviet Union anymore than Capitalism is the USA. They are just one example of each, and neither is a pure example (there is plenty of socialism in the US - from public libraries to the police and military). Nor has communism "killed more than any religion". One only needs to look back on the Christian crusaders and missionaries and "manifest destiny". And communism itself is no more to blame for such atrocity as religion itself is. It is the people running either, the tribalism involved in either and the authoritarianism involved in either that can become the problem.

Third, Communism need not have anything to do with anti-religion. It can be completely religion based in fact. It just means that the group as a whole (called the state) owns everything and there is no private ownership. It fails in large groups because people are selfish. In small groups where everybody knows and cares for each other, it works just fine.

When I refer to communism, I refer to communism as a national political system, not a system used in small Amish communes and family units. I refer to the communism we saw in the Soviet Union, the communism we see in China (which still does kill people), the communism we see in Vietnam (which still does kill people) and the communism we see in North Korea (which still does kill people).

And yes, communism has killed more than any religion. It is has explicitly executed citizens who opposed it, we saw this in Soviet Russia with Stalin. The Crusades on the other-hand were not because of Christian reasons but political reasons (primary to stop the Seljuk turks' expansion of their empire).

Concerning your last point: In Marx's official doctrine, he demands the eradication of religion and the establishment of a society free from religion for his communism to work. I'm aware of all the different forms of communism but I'm specifically referring to Marx's communism, the communism which has been followed by all the countries I've mentioned (which subsequently banned religion or suppressed religious freedom). The communism these countries have followed have all been Marxist.

[SSHorror]

While there's many atheists who do not support communism, for me it seems that most communist groups consist of atheists.

[Pygoscelis]

If you insist on defining "Communism" as anti-relgious Communism, it should not surprise anyone that such people are not themselves religious.

And yes, the Stalinist version of communism did have people killing in its name. But let's not pretend that people have not killed in the name of religion since the dawn of humanity. Everything from ancient Aztec human sacrifices to the Gods, to witch Christian burnings and infidel hunts, to Muslim Daesh would be staring you in the face.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

And trying to get back to the title of the thread; I wonder where God is in all this apparent conflict? Was it God's intention that the three Abrahamic religions should cause tensions and wars?



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In 2009 I had the privilege to go to Jerusalem, and stand by the Wailing Wall or Western Wall, it is part of a huge structure called the Temple Mount, which is a sacred place to the Jews Christians and Muslims. Abraham was said to have offered his son as a sacrifice in the region of Mount Moriah. It is also were Solomon was commanded to build the Temple on Mount Moriah to house the Ark of the Covenant, (the Ten Commandments) it is where Jesus worshiped. The Temple was destroyed not long after the time of Jesus, and then the Islamic Dome of the Rock is built were Solomon’s Temple once stood. The Dome is said to be the place where the prophet pbuh, ascended up to heaven to meet all the other prophets, on this same site, associated with Abraham, Moses, Solomon, and Jesus.

When you look above the Wailing Wall, you see the golden dome of ‘The Dome of the Rock Mosque, and the Al Aqsa sacred to Islam. You queue up to go up to the mosque from the Jewish side, and enter under the blue canopy, there is a sign that says – This is a most sacred place where God is always present. By this sign are Israeli Police with guns, and their riot shields are stacked against the wall ready for use.

It seems that God has brought all three religions together on one huge monument and in so many ways, it seems to be a place to search for God rather than religion.

God could have made our lives much easier if he had placed our three religions a thousand miles apart, but it seems that God has some greater purpose by bringing all three religions together in one place. Today there is tension in Jerusalem, most of the Christian holy places are within the walls of the Muslim Community, and this is surrounded by the Jews.

Justice and peace on Earth depends on us trying to understand and do God’s will; despite all our differences. The bottom line seems to be that all the land belongs to God, we are all but temporary custodians, somehow we should seek to share all things as they were given to us by God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of One God

Eric