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new2010
05-07-2015, 03:54 AM
Assalamualaikum,

obviously we don't have any thread that's about social freezing. WhenI put this words into the search engine not many result appeared, even in Google or certain fatawa sites. I am wondering what the islamic view is on this? Have you been puzzled by an fatawa or an scholaric view? (Honestly guys, is this last sentence grammatically correct???)
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Scimitar
05-07-2015, 04:11 AM
"scholarly" not "scholaric" lol... otherwise fine...

Social freezing is not an Islamic practice at all - Muslims should multiply at ridiculous rates - 20 kids per married couple sounds good to me - Allah is the provider after all. Have some faith, social freezing is a very selfish thing to do and shows lack of imaan in Allah.

Scimi
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sister herb
05-07-2015, 07:06 AM
Hmmm... 20 kids per married couple doesn´t sound good if we are thinking the overpopulation problems of the world. ^o)
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new2010
05-07-2015, 10:44 AM
Thank you for your replies.

I didn't ask because I am interested in freezing my ovums, so that would even not be possible I am male, I don't have this things ^^ I am just interested in this because this seems to be not very substantially discussed in islamic community and there might be siblings interested in this, so it would be necessary to have a refuge.

The question whether Muslims should get 20+ kids is another whole discussion and very interesting either. On one hand Rasulallah (sas) told us, he want to be the biggest ummah on the day of judgement and we should gain, otherwise we have the above mentioned globally problems. Without forgetting that Allah is the one who provides mankind with rizq. Allahu Alem.
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Scimitar
05-07-2015, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Hmmm... 20 kids per married couple doesn´t sound good if we are thinking the overpopulation problems of the world. ^o)
Originally Posted by new2010
On one hand Rasulallah (sas) told us, he want to be the biggest ummah on the day of judgement and we should gain, otherwise we have the above mentioned globally problems. Without forgetting that Allah is the one who provides mankind with rizq. Allahu Alem.
There is no global overpopulation crisis - that is just MSM scare mongering - there are many places on earth, large geographical spaces which are left untouched and are very fertile - but the govt's of those countries have made them into conservation areas and places of natural beauty or antiquity which serve no purpose today and often people are not allowed to enter... why? so they can "preserve" heritage as if they were gonna take that to the grave with them lol...

...by denying mankind the landmass he needs to thrive - humanity is curbed... and Allah is the ultimate provider - it is not Allah who wrongs us, rather we human beings with our limited vision, wrong ourselves all too often.

Have twenty children, in sha Allah... ethnically cleanse the west by outbreeding those weak 1 child per family types, within a few generations we will have Muslim lobbies in govts of the west in sha Allah.

Scimi
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sister herb
05-07-2015, 11:41 AM
Unfortunately most of the population of the world lives in the areas where is already overpopulation crisis. I don´t think its very WISE idea to believe that the earth can provide for 20 times larger population than today. But of course anyone can believes like they think its the best, but...

Believing that there is no problems of overpopulation (or enviromental crisis because of overpopulation) doesn´t mean that there is no crisis at all. Its like closing the eyes.
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Scimitar
05-07-2015, 12:31 PM
the world really isn't overpopulated sister herb.

you do realise that there is a global agenda to depopulate the earth right? they want us to feel like we've out bred our living spaces, but I happen to know otherwise.

Do you know about the Georgia Stones? what they represent and why they are part and parcel of world domination plans? Probably not.

You will clearly see that you are following the narrative of the same people who want Islam dead, albeit you are following it unwittingly sister herb.

1. MAINTAIN HUMANITY UNDER 500,000,000 IN PERPETUAL BALANCE WITH NATURE

2. GUIDE REPRODUCTION WISELY - IMPROVING FITNESS AND DIVERSITY
3. UNITE HUMANITY WITH A LIVING NEW LANGUAGE
4. RULE PASSION - FAITH - TRADITION - AND ALL THINGS WITH TEMPERED REASON
5. PROTECT PEOPLE AND NATIONS WITH FAIR LAWS AND JUST COURTS
6. LET ALL NATIONS RULE INTERNALLY RESOLVING EXTERNAL DISPUTES IN A WORLD COURT

7. AVOID PETTY LAWS AND USELESS OFFICIALS

8. BALANCE PERSONAL RIGHTS WITH SOCIAL DUTIES

9. PRIZE TRUTH - BEAUTY - LOVE- SEEKING HARMONY WITH THE INFINITE

basically this is the satanic narrative where you sign your life away to a govt system which then replaces your divine right to choice in the hands of those who you voted in... and therefore, your deen is compromised as they take your rights one by one in a controlled environment where there is no risk of civil unrest... why can't people see this?

Further, to think the world is over populated is just plain silly - where is your investment in Allah? please explain.

Scimi
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farhan
05-07-2015, 12:35 PM
By social freezing do you mean by using frozen embryos?
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Scimitar
05-07-2015, 12:48 PM
Apple and Facebook have an odd perquisite for their employees - they will pay for their employees to place oocytes in frozen storage — social freezing, also known as cryopreservation and egg freezing.

Companies may have a mercenary desire to do so, even if it comes across as altruism. By eliminating a biological clock for women, they can keep employees working longer hours, which will close that pay gap between men and women and make them look like noble while they reduce turnover.

There has been concern about fertility resources for non-medical reasons, and that will always get mainstream media excited, but because of such manufactured controversy the medical consequences are often ignored. Though the first successful pregnancy following oocyte cryopreservation was reported in 1986, there remains concern about obstetric or perinatal outcomes.

In a newly published review in Deutsches Ärzteblatt International, Michael von Wolff et al. outline what needs to be considered before oocytes are placed in storage.

The principal advantage of social freezing is the ability to delay having children. Disadvantages are the high costs, the high rate of multiple pregnancies following artificial insemination and the elevated risk of complications that brings. The likelihood that in vitro fertilization will result in birth is estimated at up to 40 % for women under 35, but only 15 % above the age of 40. Furthermore, women over 40 are more likely to suffer from diseases of pregnancy such as pre-eclampsia or gestational diabetes.

The authors therefore recommend that women considering social freezing should weigh the realistic chances of success against the question of compatibility of work and family life and the potential risks for both mother and child.

Citation: von Wolff M, Germeyer A, Nawroth F: Fertility preservation for non-medical reasons—controversial, but increasingly common. Dtsch Arztebl Int 2015; 112: 27–32.

Read more: http://www.science20.com/news_articl...#ixzz3ZSMZjGfw

...Seems like a total health risk to me, and something which doesn't guarantee any success and is often more problematic than normal pregnancy... why try to out do the body which Allah provided you and risk this modern process instead? What sense does it possibly make? Can you not see that this is another cog in the wheel which shoves women into longer working hours for a longer period of time and takes them away from their natural state (fitra) as mothers, teachers and nurturers of the next generation?

Scimi
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Scimitar
05-07-2015, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by فرحان
By social freezing do you mean by using frozen embryos?
Egg freezing is a technique that allows long-term storage of eggs in sub-zero temperatures. Although no reliable data are available, it is believed that to date thousands of babies have been born worldwide from previously frozen eggs. This technique is used in infertility treatment when more eggs are retrieved than needed or as a means of medical fertility preservation. In elective egg freezing, this technique is used by healthy and fertile women and may be described as ‘self-egg-donation’, where the young donor and the future older recipient are the same woman.

Elective egg freezing is controversial because it involves an invasive risky procedure performed on a healthy woman, who is not undergoing IVF for fertility treatment. Egg retrieval itself carries risks such as ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome, bleeding and infection and little is known about its long term implications for the woman’s health. These risks must be understood in the context of limited data on how the use of previously frozen eggs impacts the chance of conception and the health of offspring. Some have expressed concerns that the procedure may represent a ‘false promise’ of preserving fertility in the light of current low success rates of IVF in general. The counseling of healthy women considering egg freezing should thus be tailored to their unique context and contain the most updated evidence regarding the medical risks of the procedure and the actual chances of conception in the future.

In Western societies today, where women enjoy a greater level of equality and play a more significant role in the work force than ever before, delayed motherhood has become prevalent. The biologically ideal window of time for reproduction has thus become for many women a practically impossible time to start a family. Indeed, the proportion of women giving birth in their early forties in Canada, for example, has doubled between 1988 and 2008.

In light of current social forces and trends, elective egg freezing is often perceived as a means of promoting women’s reproductive autonomy, allowing them to expand the natural reproductive cycle and to choose motherhood at a time that is appropriate for them. It is also perceived as promoting gender equality by ‘leveling the playing field’ and allowing women to become mothers later in life, a choice that previously belonged only to men. However, this portrayal of the technique overlooks two important elements. First, elective egg freezing is a very expensive option, costing approximately $4000 to $15000 (US) plus an additional cost of medications of $2000 to $4000 dollars, and annual storage fees of around $440. The elevated cost of this option means that while it may level the playing field between men and women, it may create a new type of reproductive inequality between rich and poor women.

Second, the emphasis on elective egg freezing as promoting autonomy and individual choice fails to acknowledge the social context of delayed motherhood. Some speak about “women who have just waited too long to have their children,” implying lack of appropriate planning or self-centered preferences. If delaying motherhood is simply a ‘lifestyle choice’, then the risks and cost involved in elective egg freezing may be perceived as prices women must pay for their life choices. However, this portrayal of elective egg freezing fails to address the tremendous social pressures experienced by younger women to establish themselves before becoming mothers. The strong social message is that to be a responsible mother, a woman should first get an education, establish a career, and attain financial and relationship stability.

In light of these pressures, the choice to delay motherhood must be understood not solely in individualistic terms, but rather in the context of the social reality of today’s Western societies. From this perspective, elective egg freezing should be portrayed as an individual solution to a social problem, a solution that puts the onus on women and fails to address the social dimensions of the problem in terms of policies that would allow women to choose motherhood earlier in life, such as paid maternity leave, subsidized childcare and family-friendly work environments.

http://impactethics.ca/2014/06/13/so...logical-clock/

Scimi
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new2010
05-07-2015, 01:15 PM
No, I don't mean freezing embryos, akhi! There is a new concept for women to postpone giving birth and concentrate in their carrier. This is a stupidity of the west to emancipate more women into economy. They take ovums from the women in a young age, she works and after a while she take this young eggs and gets children with them, so they get fertilized; I don't know whether in a naturally way or artificially. This concept is supported by huge companies like facebook and apple and they even pay all the costs. Ethically this is egregious that a company has an impact of your family planning. I genuinely don't know what this people planning next to destroy normal family growth standards.

The discussion in regard to overpopulation: I think the overpopulation is not the problem at all, it's more people, who aren't satisfied with low living standard. Take China, they're going to grow and the people there want to achieve same standard as the west. This is actually a problem, because when they want to have all that climate change, it is going to destroy our environment. Furthermore, at least according to geographers it might develop an nutrition scarcity. Of course Allah is the one who provides us with our nutrition and our home and so fort. However, we human beings need to organize everything and when everyone wants to eat meet and drive a car, we will have tremendous problems. Don't get me wrong, Allah is almighty, but do we have the prerogative to destroy our environment? In my opinion, the problem is not that humanity grows it's more our living standards grow and we want to live all in cities and have a cars and life in luxury. When everyone would life a modest life, concentrate on the fundamental things without wanting unnecessary stuff, overpopulation wouldn't be a issue.

Furthermore, attention should be paid to no country is interested primary to save our environment our established a healthy humanity that lives an equality. Only those who've a good GDP are able to have sustainable environment and healthy population. When you look at developing countries in Africa, some people there are getting up to 16 children, but most of them are not able to survive for a long time. This definitely from Allah and we are belonging to Allah and we will return to him, alhamdullah. Nonetheless, it's permissible in Islam to take care of your health and have therapies to gain health when you was sick, so I am wondering why not to prevent when we're able to help people surviving.

Sorry, I've written to much and I think I drift a bit of the topic. I don't want to annoy Allah, but this is just what we learn and read. When there is something wrong it's only from myself!
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M.I.A.
05-07-2015, 02:32 PM
Number of children is not a guarantee for success although it can be used as a method of one upmanship.

...remember to do some good before approaching your wives though.
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Scimitar
05-07-2015, 03:53 PM
@ New2010, brother I like your thought processes :)

Scimi
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sister herb
05-07-2015, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
the world really isn't overpopulated sister herb.

you do realise that there is a global agenda to depopulate the earth right? they want us to feel like we've out bred our living spaces, but I happen to know otherwise.

Do you know about the Georgia Stones? what they represent and why they are part and parcel of world domination plans? Probably not.

You will clearly see that you are following the narrative of the same people who want Islam dead, albeit you are following it unwittingly sister herb.
I don´t see that we are even talk about same matter. I am not follow the same people who want Islam dead - that hasn´t nothing to do with the facts that soon in the earth are living more people than its possible to feed. Also I don´t see there is nothing against islam to be concern about environmental problems what this overpopulation problem brings. If you don´t want to see the problems of too big amount of the people in this planet, it´s up to you.


Anyways - talking about overpopulation problems in this thread is "off topic" and its better to continue in somewhere else place.
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Pygoscelis
05-08-2015, 07:21 PM
What would be the motive for wanting to keep the human population down or decreasing it and claiming it is not sustainable, when it really is fine? I don't see the motive for that. I do see the motive for the opposite, especially if you come from a family or culture that you want to spread or if you want to breed an army, etc. High fecundity is a benefit for competition between tribes, but I don't think we can say it is a benefit for the species as a whole, unless the numbers are so low so to be an endangered species. We're not. We're quite the opposite.

I think at the rate we are breeding, we will either run out of resources, and have a massive famine and war as we run out of resources, or we'll colonize another planet and all will be well. I don't know which will come first, but eventually one of the two has to happen, right?
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ardianto
05-09-2015, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by new2010
No, I don't mean freezing embryos, akhi! There is a new concept for women to postpone giving birth and concentrate in their carrier. This is a stupidity of the west to emancipate more women into economy. They take ovums from the women in a young age, she works and after a while she take this young eggs and gets children with them, so they get fertilized; I don't know whether in a naturally way or artificially.
Why must they freeze their eggs if they can postpone having children through standard methods of family planning?.
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gby247
05-09-2015, 12:21 PM
Scimitar, your theory and detailed info is enlighted. However none of us live in a luxury where woman can stay home and just have babies. ALLAH wants both sexes to enjoy life. Therefore being fruitful is a possibility for some yet for others it can never be. A woman's body is no longer as strong as the women were back in Abraham of prophet Muhammad and prophet Muhammad had more wives then 4 allowed per the Quran, yet you didn't see him having 20 kids with each wife. So with that being said there is no limitations to what Allah will provide. I was blessed with two live boys, and lost three. Then got cancer. So where is justice, why was I not able to have 20 if I was willing because Allah chose that for me. I accepted it but to say we should is not correctly, for some it will never be.
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Insaanah
05-09-2015, 07:14 PM
:salam:

What is the islamic view on social freezing?
And so, back to the question. I found these two fatwas that say it is disallowed:

http://islamqa.info/en/177178
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-t...html?newborns=
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