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freedomtochoose
07-16-2015, 08:10 PM
I was just curious how you Muslims think about this economy and how it works. - As the societies actually forces you to borrow, lend and consume in order to be within and have impact and influences.

however you only have impact and influences in this global society if you are within a higher advanced "nation", which is are just doing and talking, of what these people wants them to. // loyal dogs.

As a freethinker, i have also been looking into the nationalsocialism and how they thought about creating an economy, where as every nation had their own bank, and creating money after the jobs, - instead of before. // How are you Muslims standing to that system, and what is your thoughts on Hitlers and Andrew Jacksons thought of creating societies built around that?


I have also come to realize that even Christianity had these rules about not borrowing and lending money, - but they have forgot their past, and and been integrated to the overall society, and now them allows this...


I don't know where I want to drag this discussion, but feel free to enlighten me, and put it wherever YOU want.

/ peace
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Abz2000
07-16-2015, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by freedomtochoose
I was just curious how you Muslims think about this economy and how it works. - As the societies actually forces you to borrow, lend and consume in order to be within and have impact and influences.

however you only hve impact and influences in this global society if you are within a higher advanced "nation", which is are just doing and talking, of what these people wants them to. // loyal dogs.

As a freethinker, i have also been looking into the nationalsocialism and how they thought about creating an economy, where as every nation had their own bank, and creating money after the jobs, - instead of before. // How are you Muslims standing to that system, and what is your thoughts on Hitlers and Andrew Jacksons thought of creating societies built around that?


I have also come to realize that even Christianity had these rules about not borrowing and lending money, - but they have forgot their past, and and been integrated to the overall society, and now them allows this...


I don't know where I want to drag this discussion, but feel free to enlighten me, and put it wherever YOU want.

/ peace

Suffice it to know that one fifth/ khums / 20% is for Allah and His Messenger and the rest for you - unless they repent.
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Karl
07-18-2015, 01:45 AM
The Muslim system of government is a caliphate. Which is a pyramid of power type of system with some social spending (zakat... social welfare tax). And at the end of the day if the leader fails his job or deviates from the right path the people can call upon him to abdicate. If he refuses the people have Gods right to cut his head off. So he has to keep the mob happy just like any other king.
As for Hitler, he did dirty deals with the Zionists to drive the overstaying Jews in Europe to Palestine and the ones that did not make the grade or were not Zionists, were destroyed.
The truth is no political system made by people lasts. When it is created it begins to decay into corruption and falls. People just can't maintain a benevolent order. We were far better off in the days when money and government had not been dreamed up and people lived with nature instead of trying to control everything and everyone.
As it is, I prefer a monarchy because I can't stand the circus and waste of democracy. And I am north European and we always had kings.
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freedomtochoose
07-18-2015, 02:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Suffice it to know that one fifth/ khums / 20% is for Allah and His Messenger and the rest for you - unless they repent.

very interesting. Are you saying that islam and muslims only want 1/5 of the world, whatever it means?

Because many people says that islam preached that: Only if the whole world is muslims or follow the rules of islams, - only then the world can be in peace.

But when I think about it. - I don't have to consider myself as "muslim" in order to follow the same very rules? ...

please explain
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greenhill
07-18-2015, 03:50 AM
Islam is a way of life. To serve Allah (and follow His commandments) and incorporate it into our daily activities.

However, external forces have always tried (and successfully) managed to separate religion from politics, economics, finance and legal aspects of life that religious laws has become subservient to man made laws.

Economics and finance have morphed into something totally opposed to religious ideals.

To make matters worse, islamic scholars have never united to propose an alternative to the current system we have.

:peace:
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Abz2000
07-18-2015, 09:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by freedomtochoose
very interesting. Are you saying that islam and muslims only want 1/5 of the world, whatever it means?

Because many people says that islam preached that: Only if the whole world is muslims or follow the rules of islams, - only then the world can be in peace.

But when I think about it. - I don't have to consider myself as "muslim" in order to follow the same very rules? ...

please explain
I meant lawful war proceeds, as it's unlawful to take spoils from those who submit to God and accept that the commands of Quran and Sunnah should be established - war is declared by God and His messenger on those who refuse to give up their demands for usury. That doesn't mean i'm telling you that you have to hold up a usurious bank or just disappear with a huge loan on each card - or that you have to marry four women.... I do believe the Muslims during Musa's time took off with a whole load of gold, but Musa destroyed it when they made a calf out of it and began worshipping it
When stating that one fifth of the proceeds is for God and His messenger we need to clarify that if a genuine Islamic government is present - it goes to the treasury, if not, then one must spend it in the way of promoting Islam and keeping Muslims safe and secure.
When you conduct an operation under the direction and assistance of the Islamic government, then the islamic government takes the spoils and distributes it accordingly. (refer to the opening verses of surah Al Anfaal).

And Allah knows best.


One fifth of the world?
Well that's quite an idea actually considering that Muslims currently compose approximately one fifth of the worlds population.

But we already know the treachery of the enemies of Allah and the sabotage that takes place when we make a covenant of peace with them and say "lakum deenakum wa liya deen" - better we all submit to God's guidance before the wrath descends on mankind wholesale.


Interesting that when Musailamah al kaddhaab demanded that the land be split with him halves, the Prophwt pbuh who was in charge of the Islamic state at the time replied:

Innal arda lillah, yurithuha man yashaa, wal 'aaqibatu lil muttaqeen.

This doesn"t mean that we can't agree on lawfully taking land that we are entitled to in submission to and according to the laws of Quran and Sunnah.
Just that we need to seek the pleasure of Allah and bear in mind that there's a huge different between "splitting what's not yours to give" and "taking/accepting one's lawful inheritance" , the first is kufr, and the latter is Islam.

After all that having been said, know that the righteous servants of God will inherit the earth, regardless of race or nationality
If you accept Islam while there's time, you become a shareholder too :)

Wa laqad katabna fi-addhaboori mim ba'd addhikri anna al arda yurithuha 'ibaadi assuaaliheen.
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Abz2000
07-18-2015, 10:50 AM
Double post
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Abz2000
07-18-2015, 11:31 AM
A bit like the story "the king's new clothes" really.

Although it may be difficult for a learned scholar who's spent their life in playing kufr economics gymnastics to unravel - either due to the immersion in petty details or an unwillingness to admit the truth and let go of the position and respect from the status quo - it's easy for a child drawn from the breast.

Central bank prints money from paper grown on trees, releases it to the masses in exchange for base metals while repeating the promise to repay on every cheque/note issued, and appealing to the racist/nationalist patriotism of the people in order to tilt the bias in face of scepticism ("france might win!" and vice versa- though france and england are both governed by templar moneymasters issuing paper in an identical or similar manner).

There were a king with a large jaw and a queen with a plain face, on the throne of England;
There were a king with a large jaw and a queen with a fair face, on the throne of France.
In both countries it was clearer than crystal to the lords of the State preserves of loaves and fishes, that things in general*.....

Book the First -- Recalled to Life
The Period
Tale of two cities
Charles Dickens
The base metals are then degraded 'til they contain purity worth less than the goods they can buy but more than the promise on the note. (the state monopolization of currency and decrees of legal tender ensure that the stamp on the face of the coin does the magical illusion on the minds of the masses).

....Up until worthless paper notes are in complete circulation and precious metals are removed from the equation..... the central bank which has absolute monopoly over the printing and issuing process is then issuing paper notes containing a promise to repay an illusory amount - with a demand of interest payable on every unit issued, and with threat of severe punishment to any who dares to forge a similar coin or note.
A little like a game of musical chairs - the weakest/unluckiest link is removed at every crash. (despite the "too big to fail" bailed out usurious bank being the break in the socio-economic link).


The it starts getting really bad, they print more and more to prevent inevitable failiure since the interest payable has to be printed in order to exist, and since that too is issued on interest, the baloon keeps inflating and prices keep rising, causing people to either throw off the shackles in a united effort - or go begging for more loans to the very banks enslaving them.
paper becomes an irritation so they go totally illusory (digits on screens- less of those incriminating signed documents that expose the fragile house of cards and more resource pooling via globalization.

Then the globalized economy becomes victim like the small country that was previously exploited- the vital difference being that there aren't other planets to play cups and ball with.

275.*Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch Hath driven to madness. That is because they say: "Trade is like usury," but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (The offence) are companions of the Fire: They will abide therein (for ever).

276.*Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity: For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.

277.*Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

278.*O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers.

279.*If ye do it not, Take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger. But if ye turn back, ye shall have your capital sums: Deal not unjustly, and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.

280.*If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew.

281.*And fear the Day when ye shall be brought back to Allah. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly.

282.*O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah. For it is Good that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And Allah knoweth all that ye do.

283.*If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, Let the trustee (Faithfully) discharge His trust, and let him fear his Lord. Conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it,- His heart is tainted with sin. And Allah Knoweth all that ye do.

284.*To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah Calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth, for Allah hath power over all things.

285.*The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

286.*On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."



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freedomtochoose
07-21-2015, 08:41 AM
hm ok , i will have to read that a coupe of times. - my brains is pretty febrile when it comes to soaking information.


btw another loose question i got is: when i look into youtube and national socialism etc. They have these "alien"-theories - that people of another DNA than us other humans (we origins from monkeys) . - but another race with different bloodcolor etc.

Have you heard any of it. And what is all that about? or is it just completely bull, Some say its connected with Zion and the the chrstinanity which in christinaty text seems to refer to the <Snake> which tricked eva to eat from the apple of knowledge...

- Because also it seems to be really tight with the actual Nazi germany-ideology and agenda..., so their agenda wasn't all about a "fetish for blond hair", if that's correct.

hmmm
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Muhaba
07-21-2015, 09:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
A bit like the story "the king's new clothes" really.

Although it may be difficult for a learned scholar who's spent their life in playing kufr economics gymnastics to unravel - either due to the immersion in petty details or an unwillingness to admit the truth and let go of the position and respect from the status quo - it's easy for a child drawn from the breast.

Central bank prints money from paper grown on trees, releases it to the masses in exchange for base metals while repeating the promise to repay on every cheque/note issued, and appealing to the racist/nationalist patriotism of the people in order to tilt the bias in face of scepticism ("france might win!" and vice versa- though france and england are both governed by templar moneymasters issuing paper in an identical or similar manner).



The base metals are then degraded 'til they contain purity worth less than the goods they can buy but more than the promise on the note. (the state monopolization of currency and decrees of legal tender ensure that the stamp on the face of the coin does the magical illusion on the minds of the masses).

....Up until worthless paper notes are in complete circulation and precious metals are removed from the equation..... the central bank which has absolute monopoly over the printing and issuing process is then issuing paper notes containing a promise to repay an illusory amount - with a demand of interest payable on every unit issued, and with threat of severe punishment to any who dares to forge a similar coin or note.
A little like a game of musical chairs - the weakest/unluckiest link is removed at every crash. (despite the "too big to fail" bailed out usurious bank being the break in the socio-economic link).


The it starts getting really bad, they print more and more to prevent inevitable failiure since the interest payable has to be printed in order to exist, and since that too is issued on interest, the baloon keeps inflating and prices keep rising, causing people to either throw off the shackles in a united effort - or go begging for more loans to the very banks enslaving them.
paper becomes an irritation so they go totally illusory (digits on screens- less of those incriminating signed documents that expose the fragile house of cards and more resource pooling via globalization.

Then the globalized economy becomes victim like the small country that was previously exploited- the vital difference being that there aren't other planets to play cups and ball with.






Yes it is like a game. Some form of addiction. There used to be this series called Friday the thirteen the series . It reminds me of that. The value of currencies depends on supply and demand. It has no intrinsic value. it's just worthless paper otherwise. and when a nation increases supply, the value of each bill falls. It can buy less (causing inflation ) but nominal value of debt can be effectively paid with it. Which is why some nation have resorted to printing large amounts of currency to pay their debt. Demand of a currency increases value. Thus the dollar, euro, pound etc benefit in multiple ways when there is unrest in some place like Syria, causing a flight of foreign investment, people purchasing foreign currency to safeguard their savings, etc. So while the local currency falls for the various reasons, foreign currency and economies of stable nations benefit. This due to purchase of foreign currency as well as people taking their money and investing in more stable places. How many rich people moved to the Gulf countries from the unstable nations, taking their investments with them, benefiting their economies!!!
So when demand of a currency increaes, so does its value in the currency market. An increase in supply would offset the increase in value while giving a nation free money to pay off debt. Thus keeping the value of the currency stable.
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Abz2000
07-21-2015, 02:09 PM
isn't that like printing iou's to pay off a debt that was based on iou's anyway? along with total panic based speculation far removed from the reality of the situation?
a major catch being that the usurious banks are given free rein to lend to the citizenry of any given country and then sieze physical assets when the unlucky borrower on interest inevitably fails to pay the non-existent interest?
and other stuff like the government bonds where ious are borrowed from banks who are then given license to use the bonds as reserve assets and issue more ious and thereby rinse the country dry?

you can't even do that in the boardgame "monopoly".

they're just bad cheques based on absolute faith with nothing but deception (dajal) to base the faith on since it's already known that 240 pennyweight in sterling silver no longer weighs one pound in sterling silver and that anyone taking a £5 gbp sterling receipt to the bank of england will get nothing but blank stares when demanding the value promised on the paper money receipt promising to pay the bearer ON DEMAND 5 pounds in weight of sterling silver - from the date of inception.

it's a scam ok?
better off going back to trading in grain - that way at least common people have stockpiles of food when those deceitful usurious gamblers inevitably mess up again.

something like the story of yusuf (as).

seems as if dajjal's "eye of providence" caravan is billowing loads of smoke and people anticipate food in them when it's actually the sustenance of Allah and their own labour that they ultimately gwt less of at every deal.

Ali*was reported to have said:

His right eye will be punctured, and his left eye would be raised to his forehead and will be sparkling like a star.
Only the believers will be able to read the word*‘Kafir’*[disbeliever], inscribed in bold letters, on his forehead.
There will be big mountains of smoke at both front and backsides of his caravan. People will anticipate food within those mountains, during the severe famine.
All rivers, falling in his way, will become dry and he will call upon people in a loud voice
"O my friends come to me! I am your lord who has made your limbs and given you sustenance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masih_ad-Dajjal
you can't take a beat up 1982 datsun to the car dealer and say: "if you believe and look at it a bit skewed it can be a brand new mercedes, have faith in the deception".
they'd assume you were mad before assuming you were actually hoping to con them.



Which of you by taking thought, can adde one cubite unto his stature?
Matthew 6:27

King James Version (1611)
These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!

Quran 53:23


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