Questions from a free western rationalist atheist woman

[Delphi]

I am a western, scientifically minded rationalist atheist woman. I believe in uncovering the truth of the absolutely vast universe we live in by using the scientific method (first developed in the Ionian school in Greece, passed down through various different cultures, including the Arabic culture, ultimately culminating in a flowering in the western age of enlightenment). Science has let us unlock the secrets of the universe, and produce the greatest, most prosperous, and generally richest and most fair societies the planet has ever seen. We did this through rational observation, deduction, and the slow accumulation of knowledge over hundreds of years - some of this knowledge was passed down from the greeks and romans, some from the chinese, or indians, and some developed by the high Arabic culture of the golden age (algebra, mathematics, medicine). The west added greatly to this body of knowledge in the modern rational and industrial age.

Looking from the outside, Islam gets a bad name. Honor killings. Genital mutilation. Stoning of rape victims. Forcing women into veils and raping them if they fail to comply and be submissive. Brutal sharia punishments like cutting off limbs. Forcing infidels to pay tax or convert. Continual holy war on all unbelievers until they comply or be destroyed.
Looking from the outside, there was once a golden age in Islam. Science flourished. Peace, or at least a relative peace, reigned. Moderate rulers who didn't take religion TOO seriously encouraged the flourishing of society. Did Ghenghis Khan and his raiding empire bring it to a crashing halt? Was it the influence of fanatics from within?
Looking from the outside, Mohammed was a great man. He brought law. He conquored and led armies, that brought peace to warring tribes, uniting them to do greater, and better things. Sharia probably worked out pretty well, and was generally an improvement on the system that came before it. It was a more just law, a more just peace, for a difficult, fractured tribal society living in a harsh environment. Looking from the outside, he was a great man, but probably not a good one. Christopher Columbus and Julius Caesar were great men - they conquored, waged war, created great empires and through that made a greater peace. But, they also enslaved, and committed mass murder, of the "non", the outsiders. To me it is a basic, primal instinct - Darwin's ape dominance.
Looking from the outside, Jesus was a pacifist. He supported the same patriarchial Ahbramic religion that has been so deeply criticized by modern feminism and rational thought. However, to him it was "follow me, or go to hell, you've got a choice and you can just do your own thing if you want." He preached leaving morality to God to sort out, to punish, or reward. Now, this didn't work out at all perfectly, for the majority of Christianity's history. We used it as an excuse to turn things into a religion of conquest, and warfare - the Crusades, conquest of North America, colonization, ect, ect. However, somewhere deep down in our cultural DNA, we had that "opt out" clause that turned into the modern value of "religion is a private matter, and is between you and your chosen deity". This to me is the cornerstone of neutrality that holds the modern, multicultural, secular world together. We all do our own thing, and everyone is happy.

I've read the news. It's depressing. I don't mind taking in refugees - after all it's an extension of that western kindness, goodness, charity of spirit, and sharing of the bounty brought by our rational, technology oriented societies. However, it seems you can't but glance through the paper and read about rapes, riots, threats, assorted aggressive and invocations of male privilege by people who've barely arrived in the foreign country they seem so eager to take sanctuary in. The film "femme de la rue" is a good guide to this. To me, men are responsible for taming their own lust, or they are brute creatures and sub-intelligent. Of course a woman has a right to cover herself, to be modest, and to wear a hijab - it is a private matter, between her and her religion. Well - i'd like to believe this. I'd like to not wake up in my own nation and find out that due to shifting demographics I've suddenly found myself in the middle ages. It seems Islam in Europe is turning more and more to "enforcing it's own way, under threat of violence." This doesnt' really shock me. Primitive patriarchial war-religions do this.

I have two questions: One - am I being misled and am I truly mistaken in my evaluation? I find it very difficult within my rational soul to wish hostility upon anyone who does not hold a corresponding hostility for me.
My second , is this - given the "infallibility and immutability" of Islamic doctrine, is there a fundamental flaw in that doctrine that was perhaps not present at the time of the Golden Age, when moderates ran the show? I interpret the universe through the principles of logic, science, rationality, and the western code of human rights? - Is there a form of Islam that is compatible with this - and are we simply seeing an internal debate that will hopefully work towards this?

Thank you very much for your time and thoughts.

[greenhill]

Firstly, welcome to the forum. :shade:

A fairly in depth background and I see where you are coming from. Makes it easier to respond, although I won't be touching on all what you have said (I'm sure others will) but in short I'll say that you have been misled. It's the perception islam gets from the media. Stories of peaceful islamic communities living in harmony with other faith don't sell.

The stories of how those muslim terrorists were trained and armed by the US were never told. How the Superpowers divided ethic groups just by drawing lines on a map to create countries that ruined people's way of life leading to hostilities and war and the whole instability of the Middle East, not to mention the massive role the Zionists play in the whole thing compounding it further.

Islamic countries are being systematically attacked perhaps with some 'staged' events, it is not surprising their reaction. It will definitely breed extremists views.

On your second question, the infallibility of islam is based on one fundamental belief, Allah.

He created the world. He created everything within it. He created us.

He provides for us, He is the Sustainer and everything IS in His Hands. Nothing happens without His Leave.

So we have to have faith. Allah Is Most Fair and the Best Dispenser of Affairs. Our test is our faith. And for our faith, we are are tempted by the world and can stray from the true path.

The holy prophet passed away with no property to his name, no wealth whatsoever. He was offered riches, but refused.

You are quite way off the mark. That's the media and propaganda for you.

Because true islam means we submit, do honest living for Allah and He will take care of His slaves in this world. To reach paradise, we must recognise Him and to acknowledge Him. To do this you must read and understand the Quran. It's out there. Pick it up. It's a different mindset altogether. . .Or read Haykal's book on the prophet (pbuh).

It's getting long already...

:peace:


P.s. Wishing you a great stay

[Abz2000]

it's so longwinded and full of colourful disinfo that i'll seek the truth and accept it by more rational means.

[eesa the kiwi]

hi sister welcome to the forum
i could give you a response about how islam is a religion of peace and mercy (which it is) but im not going to
i could tell you that the main belief in islam is that the creator alone should be worshipped alone without any partners

what im going to do however is give you two pieces of advice
if you really want to understand islam (and as your an intellectual im guessing you do) find a copy of the quran in a language you understand and read it. this is the best way to get an insight into islam
my second piece of advice is for you to pray for guidance, say oh my creator guide me. be sincere and inshaallah it will be answered, ask for a sign if you want but be sincere. subhannallah we need our creators guidance every second of the day. this is probably the best thing we all can do
hope this helps sister

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[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Delphi; and welcome to the forum from a Catholic,

I have been on this forum for ten years, I have found people to be helpful and kind.

I interpret the universe through the principles of logic, science, rationality, and the western code of human rights? -

We have to take some blame for bombing Iraq, resulting in a hundred thousand dead civilians and two million refugees. Marriage has little meaning in the west, by the time children reach fifteen, around half of them will not be living with both their biological parents in the UK. A free for all is the norm for relationships. We are driven to be self centred, and to have the things we want, at the expense of others. We ignore the plight of twenty thousand children starving to death every day, etc, etc.

Is there a form of Islam that is compatible with this - and are we simply seeing an internal debate that will hopefully work towards this?

The Muslim greeting means peace be with you, they dress modestly, pray five times a day, they fast during Ramadan, families are taken more seriously, they give to charity, they should live within their means and not borrow money at interest.

In the spirit of searching for justice for all people

Eric

[BlueOwl358]

I'm going it.


Yes, science is the great method by which all great civilizations are marked. The seeking of universal secrets is achieved by the scientific method, through a collection of old information and innovation of the civilization's own scholars. And yes, Islam has gone through that. But there have been many states of chaos that this civilization has gone through, and this chaos that is implanted into Muslim lands has an equal reception.


Now what usually happens in Islamic history, is after a major era of chaos, you get a revitalization movement led by some group of people to spring it up again. The forced border mentality and the fact of current leaders being so forcefully defended by foreign aid, has made the matrix go haywire. So this time, the massive revolts have just gone haywire, in a bursting manner.


Along with this you have the media, and the entire one sided perception. No proper Muslim authority recognizes the middle eastern groups, and most proper Muslims don't recognize the governments of established nations, like Saudi Arabia. That has caused a paradox, and we all know how much paradox is hated by practically everything.


In Proper Islam, there is no basis of Islamic law to be implemented on non-Muslims. Islam isn't like a mafia gang that uses hit and run tactics, we have laws of forgiveness.


"And never is it for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer by mistake - then the freeing of a believing slave and a compensation payment presented to the deceased's family [is required] unless they give [up their right as] charity. But if the deceased was from a people at war with you and he was a believer - then [only] the freeing of a believing slave; and if he was from a people with whom you have a treaty - then a compensation payment presented to his family and the freeing of a believing slave. And whoever does not find [one or cannot afford to buy one] - then [instead], a fast for two months consecutively, [seeking] acceptance of repentance from Allah . And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise." (Quran 4:92)

"O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment." (Quran 2:178)

That make you feel better?

What my most basic point is, the whole reason is forced stress, yes you heard me, forced stress. The most aggressive era of chaos on Islamic world yet, has produced a more aggressive reception. There are more militant groups now than before 9/11. Most, if not all militant groups are funded by either the West or other governments. They are pawns in proxy wars. This might as well be a second cold war, because all of these nations are funding groups to fight against other groups in a confusing story of nonsense that no one wants to read. That is why we get so one sided images in our head.

Islam practically needs some area for flexibility. All empires have a history of being good, then bad, then replaced, good, bad, and replaced, that is history. And due to forced borders that are defended by so many nations, this flexibility has been eliminated, leading to corrupt governments going through never ending decline. This is most clearly seen in the Middle East, if there was no European colonialism, nor nationalism, some other great dynasty or whatever would have replaced the Ottomans, and then what would you have? Yes, another Golden Age.

The previous Golden Ages were led by moderates, because of readily available Islamic ideas, which you have a lack of in the present world. So many Muslims have lost the most basic knowledge of our religion, and that is because of nationalistic ideas. In older times, Islamic ideas were our nationalistic ideas, well kind of. So you had educated people, which led to more peace.

This isn't some giant religious conspiracy to me, it is very simple. This is the path of history going wrong, and history takes hundreds of years for each chapter for each era, but we can't wait, I mean, who can really wait that long? What is different this time, is we are stuck in it now, unless it gets fixed.

AND THAT, IS WHAT YOU CALL TOO MUCH TEXT. Lol, sorry.

[greenhill]

I'd like to not wake up in my own nation and find out that due to shifting demographics I've suddenly found myself in the middle ages. It seems Islam in Europe is turning more and more to "enforcing it's own way, under threat of violence." This doesnt' really shock me. Primitive patriarchial war-religions do this.

It wouldn't be this way if those who ended being refugees didn't have to leave their homeland due to meddling by foreign nations. And where they end up is so radically different from what they are used to, they can become more 'hardline' in their belief due to external threat. I'm just speculating here.

But bottomline is, all Abrahamic faith believe in one God (with the Trinity being the only exception). And, in the belief, Satan is the ultimate enemy. It is his solemn oath to mislead mankind from ever recognising the Creator, Allah, Most High.

How does he do this? Via temptations and distortion of the messages, until Quran. He could not distort that. So he created factions within islam. Although the text has remained the same, he has caused to effect the people. People are people, no matter what, and muslims are not impervious to his whispers either.

The deen itself is great for the world we live in, not really reflected by the muslim attitude on display by the media.. Yes you get the odd loud mouth trouble makers. But that is not everybody. Only requires one loud mouth to paint a misrepresentation of the deen, compile a few of them and you get to portray as though that is the belief.

To add, the Quran specifically says that "There is no compulsion in religion". It has to be your researched choice! One cannot be forced into it.

Jizyah, or tax for non muslims was done because they were not obliged to pay zakat. The muslims in the muslim community pays zakat. So it was not that muslims did not have to pay anything while non believers paid tax.


:peace:

[Delphi]

So far I'm really enjoying the quality of responses. Yes, this does make me feel somewhat better. I think they'res two sides to every arguement, and I'm not overly a fan of the religious fanatics who voted for George Bush, either. To me, it's the same thing. Delusion by god-complex. Maybe it's the ultimate extension of the "he who is without sin, cast the first stone" principle. How can we presume, knowing the little that we do about the universe, with the small amount of advancement that we really possess, who or what God really is. I think He has good intentions and believes in peace, however. When I pray, i perhaps occasionally feel Christ.

[Delphi]

I will give you this . "ISIS" is also the name of an ancient, egyptian fertility goddess, supposedly so beloved of secret societies such as the Masons. Be careful what fanaticism you sign up for :) - Yes, there is a chance they are just a source of proxy wars...

[MuslimInshallah]

Looking from the outside, Mohammed was a great man.... Looking from the outside, he was a great man, but probably not a good one.

Greetings Delphi,

Mmm... (smile) I would say that if you knew more about the Prophet Mohammed (may God Bless him), from the outside, he was a good man. (smile) You know, well before becoming a prophet, he was known as a very honest and caring man, known for his diplomacy and his kindness. He was well respected. After becoming a prophet, he went through a lot of rejection and hardship and poverty. Yet he remained a good man, and indeed increased in his goodness. In a society that did not treat women well, he was respectful and supportive of women. In a society mired in division and violence, he worked to connect people and encourage mechanisms for peaceful resolutions of problems. (smile) Yes, he conquered. But he was so generous and inclusive that people felt drawn to join him. Everyone? (smile) No. But many.

Being a good person in difficult circumstances is what defines greatness, I think. And with this definition, I think that the Prophet Mohammed (May God Bless him) was a great man. (smile) I have read so many ahadith (mini stories and sayings concerning or by the Prophet and his companions), and the man that emerges from these readings is a very beautiful one, and yet a very human one. It is hard not to love such a person.

(smile) I know this is not the picture you and I grew up with. I remember being taught in school in England that Mohammed (may God Bless him) was a heretic who married a child. He was wedged in with a list of other heretics. (smile) To be honest, I knew very little of Islam apart from this. (smile) And it has taken me a lifetime of study to get to know more about the real Mohammed. The one who laughed and cried, who had marital joys and tribulations, who exhorted kindness towards children and who forgave enemies, who lived a simple life, in both good times and bad... who would humbly take God's Teachings (and God would Correct him when necessary) and try to deal in the best way possible with those around him. And when his message was done... a man who died in the arms of his wife Aisha (may God be Pleased with her). The wife whom you hear about in pitying tones... she was loved by, and loved her husband. She cradled her husband, his head on her lap as he died.

There are many points in your post that are incorrect. Not uncommonly heard, but incorrect. And this is not surprising. But this point, I wanted to address. Mohammed was a good man.


May God, the Compassionate, have Mercy on Mohammed and Bless him.

[Abz2000]

I will give you this . "ISIS" is also the name of an ancient, egyptian fertility goddess, supposedly so beloved of secret societies such as the Masons. Be careful what fanaticism you sign up for :) - Yes, there is a chance they are just a source of proxy wars...

I will give you this: ISIS was also the first name of israeli secret intelligence service beloved of secret societies such as the Masons. Be careful what fanaticism you sign up for :) - Yes, there is a chance they are just a source of proxy wars... you might want to consider that before joining or supporting Mossad.

[M.I.A.]

Logic in itself is not infallible.

To truly see something as something else.. Is a frightening experience.

I'm not talking about being wrong.. but for a moment most things are called into question.

It very rarely happens.

Secondly I feel as though the method of critique used to explain Islam and Christianity is simplistic to a fault..

As is the way you have not applied the same to the modern age.

The difference is that you live in a western society that is already established.

You can't imagine how any other golden age would look.

Or that any war by proxy is ever faught.

Just because you are not called to preform barbaric dark age acts.. Does not mean they do not exist.

I agree that Islamic societies exist that are in ignorance but just because you are cosseted from the worst of your societies acts does not give a right to say that civility, equality and human rights are present in every layer of the onion.

Because they are often not.

But you could say that the law applies equally to all in the western world and that each is reprimanded and rewarded according to the laws of it.. And its needs.

But ultimately those that guide it cannot always be considered good men.

But they keep from you those statements that you would never like to make..


You don't know what we have done for you..

Etc etc.

And to be fair at least some people are bold enough to admit such statements.

...from this far away, you or I have no idea of the complexities of building any foundation for future generations.

The flaws are man made.

There is a difference between law and application of law.

I am not the one to judge between people while living in my own bubble.

The refugee situation will be something that's probably been done many times before.

It will be interesting to see how they "integrate" or not..

For the many reasons I have no idea about.

Or how quickly the establish steady and routine lives for themselves..

Hunger games but they already seen worse.

It's a bad analogy and I hope that most people don't see the world that way.

Because that would remove the humanity right out of them.