Islam and Science?

[DanEdge]

Greetings All,

I did a search for "science" in thread topics and got no results. Could someone direct me to some threads that discuss Islam and science? Otherwise, I propose to begin such a thread.

The Arab world was at the forefront of scientific discovery for centuries, especially in the areas of astronomy, mathematics, and achitecture. Why? What was it about Bahgdad, for instance, that made it such a Mecca (no pun intended) for scientific research? Why were Muslims among the first to ressurect the scientific writings of the Ancienct Greeks during the Dark Ages? How does Islam deal with such issues as the age of the universe, big bang, evolution, neuroscience, etc. How does Islam reconcile itself with the scientific method of discovery?

I have many other questions, but these were the first that came to mind. Thanks for any feedback or reference.

Sincerely,

--Dan Edge

[greenhill]

On mathematics, the idea of zero (0) was not really part of the numbering until the Arabs adopted it from India (?). Then adding and subtracting could be done easier. Imagine doing sums with the Romans numbers? You would be able to progress very far.

On Arabs being at the forefront of scientific discoveries was due the the leadership at the time. People were sent to collate information from all over and collated them in a 'centre' to be studied. Hence bits of knowledge that was once upon scattered all over the world could be found in a place. Made learning and advancement of knowledge a lot easier.


A simple short part answer for you.

:peace:

[BlueOwl358]

Greetings returned.

As Muslims, we have to praise God for what He gave us, including the knowledge present on this Earth. But from a physical point of view, what were the major contributing factors that lead to this high rise of science?

1) I personally think it was perfect timing and the perfect location. Mecca was already such a Mecca due to a religious and cultural location in Arabia, which led to a great economic center due to the pilgrimage. The Muslim world (I say that because non-Arab scholars were a major factor in this age, including Persians), was similarly present at the epicenter of worldly crossroads. Romans ruled the entirety of the Mediteranean coast, and the nation to have the next highest percentage of such control were the Muslims. It was a huge empire, there was a flux of ideas, and such a lively location was not present in other locations, because of the entire Migration Period and Byzantine Defense shebangs. The East wasn't anywhere near the western world to be known, but the Islamic World connected the two. Baghdad was also in a strategic spot, because Iraq was right between Persia and Syria, it was a defensible spot as long as you had both sides defended. It was the best defensive capital of a Middle Eastern Empire, while Damascus, due to being right next to Anatolia, was the best offensive capital. The Caliphates were right in the middle of east and west, Persia and Rome, India and Spain, and two oceans as well. There wasn't any major nation in its heyday to combat this intellectual uprising, so it made sense for everyone to just study inside the empire. And the empire was huge as well, so all that information could be steered across, to the capital and the edges of the state.

2) Why did we bring back old writings? Because we could, that's why. They were readily available, we were the first civilization in some time that was not tired. The wars of Rome and Persia had preoccupied them both for a long time, so it was harder to focus on science. West and East were at it for some time, the Greco-Achaemenid Empire wars, the Roman-Parthian wars, the Roman-Sassanid wars, and it got worse as the wars kept on. Islam was the first to actually unify Syria and Egypt with Persia for some time, and not be tired while doing it. There was a will, so there was a way. The leaders encouraged it, and so did the scholars, so there was an intellectual harmony. The Greeks were naturally the ones with the information, so their ideas were naturally the ones that seeped into the middle east.

3) Islam is not incompatible with any Scientific ideas. They aren't issues at all. The Quran does not say that reality was made six thousand years ago or anything.

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30)

"And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." (Quran 51:47)

What this states, is that reality was joined into one single entity (a singularity), and it seperated, and then expanded into what we have now. You might as well say it compliments the big bang instead of going against it.

As for evolution, I also don't see that as an issue. Things change, we know that. There was no grass here during the dinosaurs, then there was, it's the change of state of the surface of the planet. Things are shaped in their design. What does that say about humans? Well, all we know by the hand of evolution is that species have genetic similarities, we don't have further proof of genetic origin. Earlier species that are said to be earlier humans, can easily be stated to be different creations that just share similarities, one just came before.

"And your Lord is the Free of need, the possessor of mercy. If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to whomever He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people." (Quran 6:133)

This is the link to a work of writing by an Islamic scholar called Ibn Khaldun, you can view his opinions on evolution under the heading of "The real meaning of prophecy". The man lived in the 14th century.

http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/M...r1/Ch_1_06.htm

4) The Scientific method of discovery is supported by Islam just like any other scientific civilization does. There is no contradiction. The tons of Islamic scholars from our Golden Age have used this method just like any other civilization has.

Sincerely,
-BlueOwl358 :shade:

[DanEdge]

Thank you, BlueOwl, for such excellent answers to my questions!

Also, thanks for pointing out the distinction between Arab and Persian. I didn't think about that.

I'm still curious about your answer #2. Many other cultures had access to ancient writings and chose not to use them. Why did Muslim leaders choose to unearth this wealth of information? Was it a quest for knowledge for its own sake, or for some percieved economic or political advantage, or what? The Christian world forbade studies of Greek writings until St. Thomas Aquinas revived Aristotle towards the end of the Dark Ages. Why would a religious-dominated polity expend massive resources to collect such knowledge?

Regarding #4: many religions regard the scientific method as anti-religion, because faith implies absolute knowledge, while science demands skepticism. Is Islam an exception in this regard?

Thanks for any reply or reference,

--Dan Edge

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[BlueOwl358]

Well then, here is my continued discussion. 😄

I think it was just a lack of powerful cultures present in the Scientific world. Any strong civilization follows the advancements in Science, there is no question about that, and the Islamic nations were no different. It is just basic human psyche. You get knowledge, as well as power and prestige. Science allows better war tactics, more methods to improve the economy, and a way to simply state your people to be more advanced for than anyone else, which is a thing in its own right.

The thing is, most centres of intellect were under Muslim influence, Spain, southern Italy, Persia, etc. Byzantium was already doing good in science, and I don't think it was that far behind, as it was also under political problems of Muslim expansion. The Catholic world, I think, was simply too politically disconnected from these areas, especially the Mediteranean. Most of the Catholic world, at least in that time period, primarily sprung up from Charlemagne's world, which was mostly based in Northern Europe. This area, I feel, just like the Russian plains and the Viking world, were not close enough for trade links to be set up, especially after the fall of Rome. It took time for ideas to seep in, which happened in the 16th century.

The papacy as well, did not try to advance scientific ideas, and the ideas of one simple group affected Europe in such a way, that the implications were long lasting. Also, I think, that how the clergy tried to be overly isolationist, contributed to this, such as monkhood, abstaining from marriage, they were separating themselves from this world too much. The head of the Islamic religion, was usually the most powerful feudal empire, and this made the religious authorities, give patronage to something that would help them. So the Catholic world was mostly based in areas that weren't so near the rest of civilization, and was too unified by the clergy and the kings. The entire dark age period helped this time of falling behind. It wasn't some overly complicated story, just a simple fold of history that took an era down with it.

As I said, what other civilization was there after Greco-Roman times? India was good, Byzantium was good, China was good, Islamdon (or something) was good, even Mediteranean Christian realms were good, such as Normal Scicily. The only nations behind were those in Northern Europe, which were just down on their time due to a few things.

Secondly, we come to the coherence between Science and Religion. I don't perceive religion by itself as against this method. Yes, religion deals in the absolute, but science also seeks to discover the absolute. The thing is, how much that religion uses statements that relate to science. The Bible, I believe, is too down-to-earth in its statements. It is somewhat hard to explain, but I think it is the writing style. The Bible simply states, the age of the earth, and the age of this, and the age of that. The Quran isn't like that, it doesn't simply tell us all the answers, like how to make a 4D dimension from virtual simulators. It is more free flowing, there is more natural discovery. It gives you the perspective of learning, finding out the answers. So do other scriptures, especially the Vedic ones. I feel they are written so you feel more closer to them. Like this is a sign, that is a sign, study it, and stuff.

If scientific knowledge was revealed to the Arabs, they would simply be mind blown and turn away. So you can call it a more timeless book. It is a great mixture between past and present, and eternity. It is more like a challenge, that combines the absolute with its study. Such as this:

"And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away." (Quran 21: 32)

It isn't that apparent, but the more we study in science, the more it compliments the religion. It is aided, scientific discovery. How can you be a skeptic over that, there isn't anything that's wrong, in any science. But the more you study the sign, it hits you. What it means. The atmosphere protects us from radiation! The Quran simply speaks in a poetic, truthful manner, that tells you to learn about God's signs.

The very first revealed Quranic verses, amplify this chain of thought the most.

"Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists)… He has taught man that which he knew not." (Quran 96:1-5)

[Abz2000]

Why would a religious-dominated polity expend massive resources to collect such knowledge?

the pioneers of Islam came through an internal struggle when the Prophet pbuh appeared, they weren't just receiving updates on the established knowledge they already possessed as it was with the people of previous scripture, they were going through a total revolution in regards to their frame of mind and that of their recent ancestors, they were required to use their intellects and adopt truth when they saw it - even if it meant throwing away all the false notions they had aquired over the centuries, the mindset required humility and a will to know, to cast aside arrogance and schism and seek the truth and adopt it wherever they found it, so when the Islamic leaders would overrun a kingdom, one of their first tasks would be to set huge teams of translators to decrypt the information possessed by the people of the area, it also helped them to understand the current mindset of the people over whom they had accepted administration.
a classic example would be the adoption and dissemination of the numerical digit zero which was sitting dormant in a small geographical location, they didn't just smirk at or ignore it like many others had, because they had developed a trend of reaching upwards.

many religions regard the scientific method as anti-religion, because faith implies absolute knowledge, while science demands skepticism. Is Islam an exception in this regard?

depends on how you perceive the term science, whether it is a study of life and phenomena based on sincerity, truth and openmindedness or a schismatic endeavour embarked upon in order to reinforce what one perceives to be one's own (even if faulty) traditional or personal superiority.

the following verses should give you an idea of how lofty their goals were being set at:

When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:"
They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers."
What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?
(Surah Al-Baqara, 170)


120.*Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
121.*Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.
(Surah Al-Baqara, 120-121)

ours vs yours can cause one to conceal or fabricate - rise above it and seek the truth:

70.*Ye People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, of which ye are (Yourselves) witnesses?
71.*Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?
72.*A section of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back;
73.*"And believe no one unless he follows your religion."
Say: "True guidance is the Guidance of Allah.
(Fear ye) Lest a revelation be sent to someone (else) Like unto that which was sent unto you? or that those (Receiving such revelation) should engage you in argument before your Lord?" Say: "All bounties are in the hand of Allah. He granteth them to whom He pleaseth: And Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things."
74.*For His Mercy He specially chooseth whom He pleaseth; for Allah is the Lord of bounties unbounded.
from Quran chapter Aale Imran.

plus we're constantly told to ponder on creation, to travel the lands, to research the histories of those who passed before, to question ourselves etc.

it is indeed sad when you see many lawful scientific research and findings limited or suppressed by the fact that the funding and media coverage is controlled by criminals in positions of authority who care no more for the facts and wider implications than they care for the short and quick gains to be milked from the interpretation of the research. where corporate balance sheets and political implications take precedence over facts which will help the whole of mankind to consider and advance.

i am what/who i am remember?

75.*Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.
76.*Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say: "We believe": But when they meet each other in private, they say: "Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?"- Do ye not understand (their aim)?
77.*Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?
78.*And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
79.*Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
80.*And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"
81.*Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins,- they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
82.*But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever).

if you think carefully you'll see that the whole methodolgy being imprinted in them was scientific from the outset.

[DanEdge]

More great answers! I will re-read later and pose other questions as they come up. Thanks again.

Sincerely,

--Dan Edge

[eesa the kiwi]

google scientific miracles in quran
you should find it interesting brother

[DanEdge]

Neat discovery from follow-up research: look up the origin of the words algebra and algorithm :)

--Dan Edge

[Physicist]

I'm also concerned about scientific approach and tech advance.
All my life, due to propaganda and the current gap, used to think about muslim countries as about kind of outdated culture. Got very surprised by my resent discoveries about Islam.

But then why is this technological gap?
I think now, that civilizations may need time to adapt new knowledges.

The knowledge of Islam, delivered by Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, is a very strong knowledge, took centuries of the brightest minds of the muslim countries to adapt social structures, yet there are many conflicts, but social institutes clarifies in time and wisdom prevails.

Same time, other civilizations had their own ways, playing their own roles in The Grand Design. They've got time advantage, was developing sciences and technologies. But the base of their social structures remains outdated, based on animal-like rank-hierarchies and required constant expansion and conflicts to develop.
Now, they are drowning in corruption, their human potential development programs relay more on conformance to the system more than on talents, leaving many talented educated people on the life roadside, yearning for dignity. Russia's scientific society completely collapsed. The western countries are somewhere behind on this way.

Same time, Islam are getting very popular, attracting those looking for True and dignity. UAE is a good example of muslim country getting tech advanced. Yet, not really developped it's own talent development technologies but heading there fast.

Just my feelings how it's going, don't really know much of the history and the staff.

[DanEdge]

Secondly, we come to the coherence between Science and Religion. I don't perceive religion by itself as against this method. Yes, religion deals in the absolute, but science also seeks to discover the absolute. The thing is, how much that religion uses statements that relate to science.

Blue Owl and Others,

I would challenge the view that the scientific method seeks to discover the absolute. An integral part of any scientific theory is that it is falsifiable, i.e., that it can be disproved by experiment. Religious views, by contrast, are usually not considered to be falsifiable. For example: to a Muslim, is there any new piece of evidence that would prove that some aspect of the Koran is false and needs to be updated? Would a Christian accept evidence proving that some aspect of the Bible is false?

I believe that religion and science are fundamentally different in this respect. Science cannot disprove religion, since that would imply an absolute judgment, but religions can and do sometimes impede scientific discovery. The Catholic church's persecution of Galileo comes to mind. I think religion and science ought to be considered separately, and that free societies should allow unrestricted scientific discovery, even if the conclusions of new science seem to contradict religious law.

Thanks for reading,

--Dan Edge

[DanEdge]

But then why is this technological gap?
I think now, that civilizations may need time to adapt new knowledges.

Physicist,

I think this is a very interesting point, which I have also been thinking about. How does a civilization integrate new technologies when they are suddenly introduced? The era of Western Imperialism is full of examples. The West got ahead of much of the rest of the world after it recovered from the Middle Ages. Africa was furthest behind, and has had the most trouble since. I believe that the technology gap makes a huge impact, I just don't understand how...

Still studying. Always.

--Dan Edge

[greenhill]

Faith, in the right direction, makes compelling belief.

Islam believes in Allah as The Supreme Creator, the Only, Everlasting etc. Everything follows His Laws. If His Words are unchanged in the Quran, why would Muslims fear for any incorrect statements, there would be none. So, we are free to explore. If there was anything strange found, it is most likely due to our lack of understanding.

We also have to remember that 'science' is still a relatively new field. 'Signs' have been around a lot longer.

Many 'signs' have been described in the Quran, some relating to science, and some to reasons. But mainly all falls in the background for the purpose of these reflections are to cement faith in the truth of the message for the 'soul'.

As Allah is invisible and He Works in Mysterious Ways, finding the way to have pleasure in serving Him also takes resolve. It is not such an obvious route... almost invisible, too..

But science have 'corrupted' in the way that without facts, but merely by way of 'suggestion', the theory evolution is commonly accepted as being the origin of species.

Likewise, even mathematicians say that with the complexity of the Big Bang there is almost no likelihood of it happening by chance. Yet, it is commonly accepted that it happened by chance (although experts themselves say there is almost no chance). Imagine that. So hell bent in not wanting to accept that mathematically, for the Big Bang to work, there had to be God to orchestrate it.

Have I digressed?


:peace:

[Physicist]

I believe that religion and science are fundamentally different in this respect.

Even more different, but should complement each other.

Religion gives Faith, the spiritual fundament, the reason of life, answers subjective and moral questions.
When one is trying to apply scientific approach to religion, he is only getting images creating by his own mind, it is popular among atheists to imagine that religion about some guy sitting on the cloud. When first astronaut returned from his expedition, he said: "there is no God, i didn't see him there."

Science gives knowledge about material world but it doesn't give you the answer Why?

One, trying to answer this question by science may lost his mind.
Another one, having only faith without knowledge, will expect God to feed him and will die of hunger.

[Physicist]

DanEdge, i think persecution of Galileo was a political motivated, Church was not ready to accept his challenge and decided to close the question this way. In atheist USSR, cybernetics and genetics in the beginning also was claimed false sciences and researchers were arrested for.

Regarding new scientific discoveries which supposed to disprove what is said in Quran...

14:4 وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلَّا بِلِسَانِ قَوْمِهِ لِيُبَيِّنَ لَهُمْ فَيُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاءُ وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom

1400 years ago, languages of humanity had no many concepts of the modern world.
Same, as translation from Arabic to English needed to let english-speeking people understand, translation from ancient Arabic to modern languages is needed for modern people.

[Ali.Fahed]

I recommend everyone to read the book The Bible, The Qur'an and Science written by Maurice Bucaille

Bucaille gives examples of astronomy, embryology, and multiple other subjects that had major advances in the 20th century. Bucaille told that the Quran is in agreement with scientific facts, while the Bible is not. He states that in Islam, science and religion have always been "twin sisters" (vii). According to Bucaille, there are "monumental errors" of science in the Bible and not a single error in the Quran