Hitting Women - That's Messed Up - Nouman Ali Khan
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Greetings,
The problem raised in this video reflects the problem with all man-made attempts at "perfection". Man's knowledge is limited, and there can be no such thing as "perfect" law written by men. The speaker attempts to defend the impossible.
--Dan Edge
The problem raised in this video reflects the problem with all man-made attempts at "perfection". Man's knowledge is limited, and there can be no such thing as "perfect" law written by men. The speaker attempts to defend the impossible.
--Dan Edge
ardianto
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Today when I was in another room in my office I heard a woman came and told a complaint while angry to my employee. So I entered the front office, approached her while smile, looked at her eyes, and asked her in professional attitude "May I help you ma'am?". I let her say what she wanted to say while I looked at her face to make her know that I gave attention. Then when I felt that her anger began to relief I phone the headquarter and invite her to talk directly with customer service. Her anger has reduced so much when she talk in phone and it made her easily could accept explanation from customer service. She thanked me very polite when she left my office.
Okay, imagine if instead of listen to her I made an argument to defend my company?. She would be more angry, and it could make me feel provoked. And if I felt provoked?. Probably I would lose control and do something bad.
One cause that makes a husband beat his wife is he doesn't know how to face his wife when she complain or angry. Then he feel provoked, lose control, and the beat his wife. This is why, very important for a man to learn to understand a woman, so he will know how to face a woman in proper manner.
If a man can understand a woman, then he will not do violence toward women.
There was a promise that I said to my wife prior to our wedding. I would never beat her. Alhamdulillah I could fulfill my promise. I never beat her until the end of her life. It because I could understand what she would feel in her heart if I beat her.
Okay, imagine if instead of listen to her I made an argument to defend my company?. She would be more angry, and it could make me feel provoked. And if I felt provoked?. Probably I would lose control and do something bad.
One cause that makes a husband beat his wife is he doesn't know how to face his wife when she complain or angry. Then he feel provoked, lose control, and the beat his wife. This is why, very important for a man to learn to understand a woman, so he will know how to face a woman in proper manner.
If a man can understand a woman, then he will not do violence toward women.
There was a promise that I said to my wife prior to our wedding. I would never beat her. Alhamdulillah I could fulfill my promise. I never beat her until the end of her life. It because I could understand what she would feel in her heart if I beat her.
:bism:
My law professor, who used to only prosecute domestic violence cases in her career with the DA's office, told us that unfortunately this evil crosses all ethnic, socioeconomic, educational, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, and religious lines (and sometimes even gender lines though rarely reported).
For example, she told us of a well-known surgeon, suave, sophisticated, moneyed, and charming in the city, who used to beat the hell out of his wife, an individual whom she had a very hard time prosecuting as the jury liked him as he was a great manipulator and was extremely convincing.
She talked about the male who threatened his immigrant wife that if she went ahead with the prosecution's case against him, she would have all her family back home killed. So, my professor had decided out of concern for the victim to drop that case.
She told us of this one male victim whose wife was abusive towards him and since she had been not quite successfully prosecuted, when they divorced so that she had part-time custody of the children, the former wife would prevent him from meeting the children and that seeing him united with his children once before her own eyes by order of court was one of the best and most emotional moments of her career.
The professor said that she developed both a "drinking problem" and a "wicked sense of humor" as a consequence of prosecuting domestic violence cases. These cases are not funny, obviously, but they take a toll on the soul.
Please, I recommend anyone in this situation, Muslim or non-Muslim, to immediately seek help and local resources like a government agency or a NGO specifically designed to provide that type of help and have a Safe Plan in place to escape from this situation as soon as possible without alerting the abuser. Also, the important things to remember for all involved in this situation are the following: 1) you are not alone, 2) it is not your fault, 3) you deserve to live in a safe environment, and 4) there are resources to help.
The chart below describes the various tactics used as a means of power and control in abusive relationships:
My law professor, who used to only prosecute domestic violence cases in her career with the DA's office, told us that unfortunately this evil crosses all ethnic, socioeconomic, educational, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, and religious lines (and sometimes even gender lines though rarely reported).
For example, she told us of a well-known surgeon, suave, sophisticated, moneyed, and charming in the city, who used to beat the hell out of his wife, an individual whom she had a very hard time prosecuting as the jury liked him as he was a great manipulator and was extremely convincing.
She talked about the male who threatened his immigrant wife that if she went ahead with the prosecution's case against him, she would have all her family back home killed. So, my professor had decided out of concern for the victim to drop that case.
She told us of this one male victim whose wife was abusive towards him and since she had been not quite successfully prosecuted, when they divorced so that she had part-time custody of the children, the former wife would prevent him from meeting the children and that seeing him united with his children once before her own eyes by order of court was one of the best and most emotional moments of her career.
The professor said that she developed both a "drinking problem" and a "wicked sense of humor" as a consequence of prosecuting domestic violence cases. These cases are not funny, obviously, but they take a toll on the soul.
Please, I recommend anyone in this situation, Muslim or non-Muslim, to immediately seek help and local resources like a government agency or a NGO specifically designed to provide that type of help and have a Safe Plan in place to escape from this situation as soon as possible without alerting the abuser. Also, the important things to remember for all involved in this situation are the following: 1) you are not alone, 2) it is not your fault, 3) you deserve to live in a safe environment, and 4) there are resources to help.
The chart below describes the various tactics used as a means of power and control in abusive relationships:
'Abd-al Latif
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I haven't watched the video but if you're referring to Islamic Law then you're mistaken. Islamic Law was not written by men.
Greetings,
We agree on some things, but disagree on others. We must agree that the Koran was ultimately written by men. Some human had to write it down on paper. We disagree that the Koran was infallibly translated by God to men onto paper, and was infallibly translated over the centuries. I contend that any writing by men is necessarily fallible, and that no writing by men can be considered perfect. My belief is that every man-made writing is necessarily limited to one's limited context of knowledge. Books from 1000 years ago cannot be expected to perfectly apply to the modern world.
Sincerely,
--Dan Edge
^^^
:bism:
Hope you're doing awesome, Dan, and Kat too!
Okay, bro, I understand exactly from where you're coming. I used to be atheist/agnostic too at one point in life, actually a greater portion of life to be honest.
That said, my sheikh (Islamic teacher) explained once thus: "Islam is founded on three pillars. The first is belief, the second is actions, and the third pillar is one's character or attributes." He described belief as the heart believing what the mind denies. He said, "This must be understood first of all or else there is no Islam. It is useless to base or balance one's faith on the level of the mind, which doubts anything that it cannot experience through the senses."
For our discussion purposes, important to realize is that the matter of belief includes God, angels, Divine Will, Divine Order, Hell, and Heaven are all matters that are encompassed into the category of Unseen. This Unseen is an essential part of belief. Without subscribing to belief in the Unseen, Islam will never make all that much sense (except maybe as a dictate for life that has some good).
Quran, the paperback or the hardcover version we see today, translated in English is not the real Quran, we can agree: "We have sent it down, (as) a Quran in Arabic so that you may understand" (12:2).
The Quran is actually a Recitation, and not the book in itself, but as to its compilation, we'll have to disagree for two reasons: The Quran was first memorized by Sahaba (Companions) r.a. (may Allah be pleased with them) and an analogy of the memorization here would be to the alphabet ABCDEFG yada-yada is memorized here as kindergartners.
Quran is surprisingly a very easy Arabic Recitation to remember and memorize, even for people whose native tongue is not Arabic due to the rhythmic tone and many times verses that has a last word that rhymes or a ending of a verse that is continued with the same beginning in the next verse or verse fluidity and thematic fluency.
We still remember our ABCDs as Americans though I am sure we learned ours decades ago. Even now, I can translate my ABCD onto the paper without one single mistake, and I am sure you can too. Even, say, however, if we did make a mistake maybe with mixing up an alphabet here or there, we can easily go over to another fellow American who'll easily be able to correct our mistake.
In that same way, all of Quran as a Recitation was memorized by heart by thousands and thousands of early Muslims; even if there had been a single mistake in translating from tongue onto paper, the mistake couldn't have escaped detection and would immediately have been corrected.
Now, we come onto the Unseen aspect, which includes God's promise to protect and preserve the Arabic Quran (Recitation): "Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians." (15:9). Plus: "No falsehood will come to it, in the present or in the future; a revelation from a Wise, Praiseworthy” (Quran 41:42).
This promise to protect and preserve includes only the actual Arabic Quran Recitation, not the English, Portuguese, Chinese, etc. translations.
Also, here, we're talking about Sahaba (Companions) r.a. (may Allah be pleased with them) who were doing the memorization, and they were no ordinary men. For example, it is known from ahadith (prophetic traditions) they saw vision-like true dreams giving them good tidings regarding themselves and other times regarding Islam, could hear stones making remembrance of God, used Surah Fatiha of the Quran as Arabic Recitation to cure themselves or others of sicknesses, witnessed miracles of the Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him) like the trunk of the tree on which he sallalahu alayhi wasallam used to lean and give sermons sighing out of love for him sallalahu alayhi wasallam when he sallalahu alayhi wasallam started to use the minbar that they built for him. Now, all of these also fall into the Unseen. Yet Sahaba (Companions) r.a. (may Allah be pleased with them) were spiritual lions and thereby Allah SWT used their hearts to preserve and protect the Quran. And also Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam said that the best generations included his own generation and the two subsequent generations, and the Quran was compiled during the caliphate of Uthmān r.a. (may God be pleased with him).
Now, during the Prophet’s lifetime, the written Arabic Quran consisted of loose pages in chronological sequence of divine revelation. The third caliph, Uthmān r.a. (may God be pleased with him), took the initiative to assemble the revealed verses in the book format we have today. As the Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam had never indicated this should be done, or done so himself, Uthmān’s act is described as a good and useful innovation in religion. Now, we know that Uthmān r.a. (may God be pleased with him) was one of the ten Companions promised Paradise by Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam during his own lifetime. So, again, considering the high and lofty status of Uthmān r.a. (may God be pleased with him) whom Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam said even angels feel shy due to Uthmān's r.a. (may God be pleased with him) extreme modesty.
I agree with you that men are fallible, and writings of men are fallible. Yet since these are not ordinary men and I can agree as to their fallibility, I cannot agree as to the Arabic Quran being fallible due to Divine Will.
Also, I like what you say in the last line of your post, but I'd add a caveat which would then read, "Books from 1000 years ago, when interpreted by modern scholars or laypersons that are necessarily fallible, cannot be expected to perfectly apply to the modern world." The reason I say this is because there's a concept of ijtihad (a technical term of Islamic law that describes the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the legal sources, the Quran and the Sunnah which exists in Islam) which means that Islamic scholars are involved in a process of interpreting to the best of their fallible ability.
So, in conclusion, I'd say we're probably in disagreement on the most important aspect of the Quran, God's promise to preserve the Revelation, on which hinges your post. Honestly, much of what you say is probably something that I could have written or thought out as a atheist/agnostic on any holy book, and therefore I'd say the most important aspect of the Quran on which you and I are basing our posts is within the realm of the Unseen. So, first and foremost task for any seeker is to verify whether Quran is the word of "God"; you're already reading the Quran, which I find awesomety-awesome, and your personal and unique journey will hopefully God-willing answer that question.
Lol, sorry, I think I wrote tangentially but I hope whatever's written above makes enough sense that you understand what I've tried to say. K, take care. Time for my poor mind to take a nice nap. Ciao, buddy, and best wishes for the time to spend with family and friends this holiday season.
Wishing you and Kat health and happiness,
:bism:
Hope you're doing awesome, Dan, and Kat too!
Okay, bro, I understand exactly from where you're coming. I used to be atheist/agnostic too at one point in life, actually a greater portion of life to be honest.
That said, my sheikh (Islamic teacher) explained once thus: "Islam is founded on three pillars. The first is belief, the second is actions, and the third pillar is one's character or attributes." He described belief as the heart believing what the mind denies. He said, "This must be understood first of all or else there is no Islam. It is useless to base or balance one's faith on the level of the mind, which doubts anything that it cannot experience through the senses."
For our discussion purposes, important to realize is that the matter of belief includes God, angels, Divine Will, Divine Order, Hell, and Heaven are all matters that are encompassed into the category of Unseen. This Unseen is an essential part of belief. Without subscribing to belief in the Unseen, Islam will never make all that much sense (except maybe as a dictate for life that has some good).
Quran, the paperback or the hardcover version we see today, translated in English is not the real Quran, we can agree: "We have sent it down, (as) a Quran in Arabic so that you may understand" (12:2).
The Quran is actually a Recitation, and not the book in itself, but as to its compilation, we'll have to disagree for two reasons: The Quran was first memorized by Sahaba (Companions) r.a. (may Allah be pleased with them) and an analogy of the memorization here would be to the alphabet ABCDEFG yada-yada is memorized here as kindergartners.
Quran is surprisingly a very easy Arabic Recitation to remember and memorize, even for people whose native tongue is not Arabic due to the rhythmic tone and many times verses that has a last word that rhymes or a ending of a verse that is continued with the same beginning in the next verse or verse fluidity and thematic fluency.
We still remember our ABCDs as Americans though I am sure we learned ours decades ago. Even now, I can translate my ABCD onto the paper without one single mistake, and I am sure you can too. Even, say, however, if we did make a mistake maybe with mixing up an alphabet here or there, we can easily go over to another fellow American who'll easily be able to correct our mistake.
In that same way, all of Quran as a Recitation was memorized by heart by thousands and thousands of early Muslims; even if there had been a single mistake in translating from tongue onto paper, the mistake couldn't have escaped detection and would immediately have been corrected.
Now, we come onto the Unseen aspect, which includes God's promise to protect and preserve the Arabic Quran (Recitation): "Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians." (15:9). Plus: "No falsehood will come to it, in the present or in the future; a revelation from a Wise, Praiseworthy” (Quran 41:42).
This promise to protect and preserve includes only the actual Arabic Quran Recitation, not the English, Portuguese, Chinese, etc. translations.
Also, here, we're talking about Sahaba (Companions) r.a. (may Allah be pleased with them) who were doing the memorization, and they were no ordinary men. For example, it is known from ahadith (prophetic traditions) they saw vision-like true dreams giving them good tidings regarding themselves and other times regarding Islam, could hear stones making remembrance of God, used Surah Fatiha of the Quran as Arabic Recitation to cure themselves or others of sicknesses, witnessed miracles of the Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him) like the trunk of the tree on which he sallalahu alayhi wasallam used to lean and give sermons sighing out of love for him sallalahu alayhi wasallam when he sallalahu alayhi wasallam started to use the minbar that they built for him. Now, all of these also fall into the Unseen. Yet Sahaba (Companions) r.a. (may Allah be pleased with them) were spiritual lions and thereby Allah SWT used their hearts to preserve and protect the Quran. And also Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam said that the best generations included his own generation and the two subsequent generations, and the Quran was compiled during the caliphate of Uthmān r.a. (may God be pleased with him).
Now, during the Prophet’s lifetime, the written Arabic Quran consisted of loose pages in chronological sequence of divine revelation. The third caliph, Uthmān r.a. (may God be pleased with him), took the initiative to assemble the revealed verses in the book format we have today. As the Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam had never indicated this should be done, or done so himself, Uthmān’s act is described as a good and useful innovation in religion. Now, we know that Uthmān r.a. (may God be pleased with him) was one of the ten Companions promised Paradise by Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam during his own lifetime. So, again, considering the high and lofty status of Uthmān r.a. (may God be pleased with him) whom Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam said even angels feel shy due to Uthmān's r.a. (may God be pleased with him) extreme modesty.
I agree with you that men are fallible, and writings of men are fallible. Yet since these are not ordinary men and I can agree as to their fallibility, I cannot agree as to the Arabic Quran being fallible due to Divine Will.
Also, I like what you say in the last line of your post, but I'd add a caveat which would then read, "Books from 1000 years ago, when interpreted by modern scholars or laypersons that are necessarily fallible, cannot be expected to perfectly apply to the modern world." The reason I say this is because there's a concept of ijtihad (a technical term of Islamic law that describes the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the legal sources, the Quran and the Sunnah which exists in Islam) which means that Islamic scholars are involved in a process of interpreting to the best of their fallible ability.
So, in conclusion, I'd say we're probably in disagreement on the most important aspect of the Quran, God's promise to preserve the Revelation, on which hinges your post. Honestly, much of what you say is probably something that I could have written or thought out as a atheist/agnostic on any holy book, and therefore I'd say the most important aspect of the Quran on which you and I are basing our posts is within the realm of the Unseen. So, first and foremost task for any seeker is to verify whether Quran is the word of "God"; you're already reading the Quran, which I find awesomety-awesome, and your personal and unique journey will hopefully God-willing answer that question.
Lol, sorry, I think I wrote tangentially but I hope whatever's written above makes enough sense that you understand what I've tried to say. K, take care. Time for my poor mind to take a nice nap. Ciao, buddy, and best wishes for the time to spend with family and friends this holiday season.
Wishing you and Kat health and happiness,
'Abd-al Latif
CagePrisoners.com
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Dude there is a difference between a piece of literature that's authored and one that's copied for whatever reason. The Qur'an was never authored by man though it was passed down in writing throughout the centuries that obviously had to be copied by men for the purpose of preservation. There are a great number of facts I can present to you that prove that the Qur'an was never altered or changed in spite of being passed down in writing by men/women.
You've made a number of other points which I will respond to later. Watch this space!
EDIT: Search's response above is good. Have a read. I had intended to say something similar.
Last edited:
Hey,
You guys are so cool to respond to my thoughts in such an open and thoughtful way. I haven't even processed your responses yet, I just saw the love and wanted to respond to it. So glad you people are on IB! Will response more when I process the posts.
Sincerely,
--Dan Edge
You guys are so cool to respond to my thoughts in such an open and thoughtful way. I haven't even processed your responses yet, I just saw the love and wanted to respond to it. So glad you people are on IB! Will response more when I process the posts.
Sincerely,
--Dan Edge
Greetings and peace be with you Dan,
God has the knowledge and the power to create the universe and life.
The writers of the Koran, are just like a tool for God, they are just like pen and paper for God to use as he wills. God's word will be read by billions of people, and over many generations, God has the power to be final editor. What we read today, is what God intends us to read in order to be encourages and inspired to do something.
In the spirit of trusting in God,
Eric
God has the knowledge and the power to create the universe and life.
The writers of the Koran, are just like a tool for God, they are just like pen and paper for God to use as he wills. God's word will be read by billions of people, and over many generations, God has the power to be final editor. What we read today, is what God intends us to read in order to be encourages and inspired to do something.
In the spirit of trusting in God,
Eric
The divine words of the Quran were memorized as revealed to the prophet saws and then eventually put on paper. The books are man made, the words are not. What's wrong with that? If you're implying the words and message have been changed from the time of revelation to the time it was put on paper, then please give us your source, otherwise I don't see what the problem is.