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sfontel
01-04-2016, 03:34 PM
Shalom brothers and sisters!

I was making coments in a diferent thread, but the subject was not at center...

Now, on this one is quite diferent....

I made a comparison, as the aHadiths are in fact only traditions and as the Quran points out they should not exist....

Why that is important to me....becouse are from the aHadiths that the unbelieveble and crazy Islamics theologies come from....

As do for Catholics using the Cleric tradition and the Tamuld for Jews....

Someone said that totaly diferent scenarios.....

Well....before you respond....please take a look on this link bellow....

http://***************/Corruption_of_Religion.html

I reapect all points of view....but this falacia can not logicaly be bridge....simple!


God bless...
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ardianto
01-04-2016, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by sfontel
becouse are from the aHadiths that the unbelieveble and crazy Islamics theologies come from
Salaam Sfontel.

Not the hadith itself that cause problem, but Muslims who use hadith to justify their wrong action or opinion. In example, some Muslims kill innocent non-Muslim, then they seek hadith about war between Muslims and non-Muslims to show the others that killing innocent non-Muslim is permissible, although this hadith actually cannot be used to justify it.

Hadith is one source of law in Islam, which not automatically become law like assumption of some people. With hadith Muslims can get guidance like how to trading, how to build relationship with the others, etc.

:)
Reply

AabiruSabeel
01-04-2016, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by sfontel
I was making coments in a diferent thread, but the subject was not at center...

Now, on this one is quite diferent....

I made a comparison, as the aHadiths are in fact only traditions and as the Quran points out they should not exist....

Why that is important to me....becouse are from the aHadiths that the unbelieveble and crazy Islamics theologies come from....

As do for Catholics using the Cleric tradition and the Tamuld for Jews....
Unlike Christianity, we Muslims have an entire science dedicated to the validation of Hadith and its transmitters, known as 'Ilm Ar-Rijaal. Each and every Hadith in existence has been carefully studied and scrutinized, and sorted according to its strength in terms of authenticity, narrators and origin.


Hadith and Sunnah form an important source of legislation in Islam. Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow [Quran 33:21] which will not be possible without the existence of Hadith.


Originally Posted by sfontel
Quran points out they should not exist....
No, Quran does not say that.

In fact, Allah :swt: orders us in the Qur'an to obey and follow the prophet Muhammad :saws:

... therefore, obeying the sayings of the Prophet [saw] is obeying the Quran; there is no contradiction in the two.

Allah says in the Quran:

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger, but if they turn their backs, Allah loves not the disbelievers. (3:32)

The above verse [and many others similar to it] establishes that we have to obey the Messenger saw [Sunnah] as well as obeying Allah [The Quran].

And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allah (4:80)

Above verse shows that obeying the Messenger [saw], is obeying Allah, as Allah has ordered in the Quran to obey the Messenger [saw].

And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)

The above verse shows that to not obey the Messenger [saw] [and Allah ofcourse] is to go astray...

Obeying the Messenger [saw] is so important in Islam, that there isn't a single verse where Allah has said in the Quran to obey Him [swt] and not said in the same verse to obey His Messenger [saw].

On the contrary, there are some verses where only the obedience of the Messenger has been mentioned, and there is no reference to the obedience of Allah

And establish salaah and pay zakaah and obey the Prophet so that you may be blessed. (24:56)

And if you obey him (the Prophet), you shall find the right path. (24:54)

This goes to show how absolutely imperative it is to obey the Messenger [saw]

And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. [Qur'an 59:7]

Read more at: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1426489


If you want to research more on the importance of Hadith in Islam, go through the links posted here: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1542902
Reply

sfontel
01-04-2016, 08:11 PM
To all....Shalom....

The article I refer is very detailed and very clear...

You dont notice this, but when you use the Quran to justify and do exact what Catholics and Jews do....its only natural...they are defending what they believe as you are doing to....

And so in doing....you are techicly telling people the following the exemplo of the aHadith have same weights as the Quran...

In resume...If someone does not follow the EXEMPLE of the aHadith they are going to Hell...

So...one must ask..is the aHadith inspire by God or not?

So....I dont think no one can bridge this....

For exemple...

The Quran says to follow the exemplo of the Prophet....

Very well....you said that this imply the necessity of observing the aHadith...

Well, what about just being faithfull to God and observing the Quran as the Prophet did?

Why the verse necessarily means follow aHadith....that is an assumption....base on the article I point out...a strech....

Is the Quran incomplete? Would not someone be save just by observing the Quran?


This are simple questions that any one can easly answer!

In my opnion the mess starts when someone equals or try to equal traditions to what is reveled....Islam is no.diferent on this matter...

Tradition is tradition...thats all...

God bless!
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AabiruSabeel
01-04-2016, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by sfontel
So...one must ask..is the aHadith inspire by God or not?

So....I dont think no one can bridge this....
Yes, Hadith are also inspiration from Allah :swt:. Allah :swt: Himself says in the Quran about the Prophet :saws:

Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,
[Qur'an 53:3-4]

Is the Quran incomplete? Would not someone be save just by observing the Quran?
Yes, the Qur'an is complete, and to understand the Qur'an, you need the Hadith and Sunnah. Allah :swt: says about the Prophet :saws:

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. [Quran 2:151]

Allah :swt: also says:

It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error - [Quran 62:2]

Qur'an has the verses, but what about explanation about purification and wisdom and knowledge of the things that we did not know? All these were also taught by Prophet :saws: as instructed by Allah :swt: and without Hadith, they will be lost.


Mufti Taqi Uthmani explains this question by saying:

The answer to this question is found in the Holy Qur'ân itself. A combined study of the relevant verses reveals that the Holy Qur'ân deals with two different types of subjects. One is concerned with the general statements about the simple realities, and it includes the historic events relating to the former prophets and their nations, the statement of Allâh's bounties on mankind, the creation of the heavens and the earth, the cosmological signs of the divine power and wisdom, the pleasures of the Paradise and the torture of the Hell, and subjects of similar nature.

The other type of subjects consists of the imperatives of Sharî'ah, the provisions of Islâmic law, the details of doctrinal issues, the wisdom of certain injunctions and other academic subjects.

The first type of subject, which is termed in the Holy Qur'ân as Zikr (the lesson, the sermon, the advice) is, no doubt, so easy to understand that even an illiterate rustic can benefit from it without having recourse to anyone else. It is in this type of subjects that the Holy Qur'ân says:

And surely We have made the Qur'ân easy for Zikr (getting a lesson) so is there anyone to get a lesson? (54:22)

The words "for Zikr" (getting a lesson) signify that the easiness of the Holy Qur'ân relates to the subjects of the first nature. The basic thrust of the verse is on getting lesson from the Qur'ân and its being easy for this purpose only. But by no means the proposition can be extended to the inference of legal rules and the interpretation of the legal and doctrinal provisions contained in the Book. Had the interpretation of even this type of subjects been open to everybody irrespective of the volume of his learning, the Holy Qur'ân would have not entrusted the Holy Prophet with the functions of "teaching" and "explaining" the Book. The verses quoted earlier, which introduce the Holy Prophet as the one who "teaches" and "explains" the Holy Qur'ân, are explicit on the point that the Book needs some messenger to teach and interpret it. Regarding the type of verses which require explanation, the Holy Qur'ân itself says,

And these similitudes We mention before the people. And nobody understands them except the learned. (29:43)

Thus, the "easiness" of the subjects of the first type does not exclude the necessity of a prophet who can explain all the legal and practical implications of the imperatives contained in the Holy Qur'ân. (Taqi Usmani, The Authority of Sunnah, Chapter 2: The Scope of the Prophetic Authority, Source)


Read more on the refutations to Hadith-rejectors claims by following the links posted here: http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...futations.html
Reply

Insaanah
01-04-2016, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by sfontel
I made a comparison, as the aHadiths are in fact only traditions and as the Quran points out they should not exist....
Originally Posted by sfontel
In my opnion the mess starts when someone equals or try to equal traditions to what is reveled....Islam is no.diferent on this matter...

Tradition is tradition...thats all...
Just to point out, that when hadeeth is translated as tradition, this does not mean in the sense of merely a custom, or something you do because your forefathers did. It refers to the Prophet's practice and directives (the sunnah), as taught to him by God, which have been recorded and preserved in records called the ahadeeth, and must be followed along with the Qur'an. The Qur'an and sunnah must both be followed.

as the Quran points out they should not exist....
You're welcome to ask questions and learn, but lease don't point out "facts" that don't exist. Leave Muslims to explain the Qur'an please. Thank you.
Reply

sfontel
01-05-2016, 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
Yes, Hadith are also inspiration from Allah :swt:. Allah :swt: Himself says in the Quran about the Prophet :saws:

Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,
[Qur'an 53:3-4]



Yes, the Qur'an is complete, and to understand the Qur'an, you need the Hadith and Sunnah. Allah :swt: says about the Prophet :saws:

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. [Quran 2:151]

Allah :swt: also says:

It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error - [Quran 62:2]

Qur'an has the verses, but what about explanation about purification and wisdom and knowledge of the things that we did not know? All these were also taught by Prophet :saws: as instructed by Allah :swt: and without Hadith, they will be lost.


Mufti Taqi Uthmani explains this question by saying:

The answer to this question is found in the Holy Qur'ân itself. A combined study of the relevant verses reveals that the Holy Qur'ân deals with two different types of subjects. One is concerned with the general statements about the simple realities, and it includes the historic events relating to the former prophets and their nations, the statement of Allâh's bounties on mankind, the creation of the heavens and the earth, the cosmological signs of the divine power and wisdom, the pleasures of the Paradise and the torture of the Hell, and subjects of similar nature.

The other type of subjects consists of the imperatives of Sharî'ah, the provisions of Islâmic law, the details of doctrinal issues, the wisdom of certain injunctions and other academic subjects.

The first type of subject, which is termed in the Holy Qur'ân as Zikr (the lesson, the sermon, the advice) is, no doubt, so easy to understand that even an illiterate rustic can benefit from it without having recourse to anyone else. It is in this type of subjects that the Holy Qur'ân says:

And surely We have made the Qur'ân easy for Zikr (getting a lesson) so is there anyone to get a lesson? (54:22)

The words "for Zikr" (getting a lesson) signify that the easiness of the Holy Qur'ân relates to the subjects of the first nature. The basic thrust of the verse is on getting lesson from the Qur'ân and its being easy for this purpose only. But by no means the proposition can be extended to the inference of legal rules and the interpretation of the legal and doctrinal provisions contained in the Book. Had the interpretation of even this type of subjects been open to everybody irrespective of the volume of his learning, the Holy Qur'ân would have not entrusted the Holy Prophet with the functions of "teaching" and "explaining" the Book. The verses quoted earlier, which introduce the Holy Prophet as the one who "teaches" and "explains" the Holy Qur'ân, are explicit on the point that the Book needs some messenger to teach and interpret it. Regarding the type of verses which require explanation, the Holy Qur'ân itself says,

And these similitudes We mention before the people. And nobody understands them except the learned. (29:43)

Thus, the "easiness" of the subjects of the first type does not exclude the necessity of a prophet who can explain all the legal and practical implications of the imperatives contained in the Holy Qur'ân. (Taqi Usmani, The Authority of Sunnah, Chapter 2: The Scope of the Prophetic Authority, Source)


Read more on the refutations to Hadith-rejectors claims by following the links posted here: http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...futations.html
Ibn-Adam my brother...

I totaly understand the arguments...but I think they disregard logic and its all but an assumptions of interprentation....the same arguments used by catholics and by jews.....and I am not kidding...

I would point this out....

Muslims say the Jesus never explicty said He was God....and muslims are right..He NEVER said "I AM GOD!" with this exact words..He point to that but never used this specifics words...

Now...where does it says explecit in the Quran the Muslims should use OTHER WRITINGS others than the Quran it self?

Is this two weigths?

You will dig into argumentation and laws of writing and this and that....as you did....


As far as I know....in one of the so call aHadiths the Prophet says not write anything else...but to erase...anyway....

Martin Luther....reformed the catholic church from this traditions....

I am just pointing out...from outside that the division and craziness of Islamic faith comes from the tradition aHadiths...thats all...

Insanah point out that I am speaking of something I dont understand and for not being a muslim I should not speak about...

You know that I actualy pasted a Islamic web site as a reference...which you partialy delete....

So its not just my opnion....just to clarify..

Thanks for the oportunity to speak!

GOD BLESS!
Reply

sfontel
01-05-2016, 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Salaam Sfontel.

Not the hadith itself that cause problem, but Muslims who use hadith to justify their wrong action or opinion. In example, some Muslims kill innocent non-Muslim, then they seek hadith about war between Muslims and non-Muslims to show the others that killing innocent non-Muslim is permissible, although this hadith actually cannot be used to justify it.

Hadith is one source of law in Islam, which not automatically become law like assumption of some people. With hadith Muslims can get guidance like how to trading, how to build relationship with the others, etc.

:)
Salaam Ardianto,

I like your response...but in a way you said what I said...that the problem if Islamic faith is the aHadith....some use for good and some for bad as you point...but the issue still the aHadith...

Shiia accecpt some aHadiths Sunnis others....modern muslims some....traditional muslims others....

What is the only point where there is no dispute?

The Quran!!!!!!

Simple....the tradition is the couse of division!

God bless!
Reply

Zafran
01-05-2016, 02:19 AM
salaam

No, hadiths are important because its a scholarly source in finding what the prophet said. For example the Quran says you need to prayer - what does that mean and how do we prayer - you have to look at the prophet to see how he prayed - the same for Zakat, Fasting.

People definitely disagree on Ahad hadiths (Not Muttawatir or corroborated) and have had traditionally different principles in interpreting hadiths but that has nothing to do with binning them - Its like binning history.

On division - Difference of opinion is a mercy in Islam - one should respect difference of opinion in Islam as long as its scholarly.
Reply

sfontel
01-05-2016, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

No hadiths are important because its a scholarly source in finding what the prophet said. For example the Quran says you need to prayer - what does that mean and how do we prayer - you have to look at the prophet to see how he prayed - the same for Zakat, Fasiting.

People definitely disagree on Ahad hadiths (Not Muttawatir or corrbatrated) and have had traditionally different principles in interpreting hadiths but that has nothing to do with binning them - Its like binning history.

On division - Difference of opinion is a mercy in Islam - one should respect difference of opnion in Islam as long as its scholarly.
Salam brother...

I am sure you believe sura 6:159 to apply only to jews and christians...

But with no offence...I would call that hypocricy...

Diference of opnion is one thing...I all for it...but we are talking about..DIVISIONS....with killing, violence...

You may not agree with you father or your brother....but at the end of the day you seat down at the table to eat toguether....


Its kind of clear....and I think many muslims realize that today..

God bless!
Reply

najimuddin
01-05-2016, 06:49 AM
Salaam sfontel,

Originally Posted by sfontel
Post #4
Well, what about just being faithfull to God and observing the Quran as the Prophet did?
It is encouraging to read that you think Muhammad :saws: was faithful to the Creator by observing the Qur’an. And, since:
Originally Posted by sfontel
Post #8
....the tradition is the couse of division!
…following the Qur’an will bring about peace and unity.

Your understanding of ahadith seems to be from a genuine concern for humanity. One such statement of yours that led me to this conclusion is the following:
Originally Posted by sfontel
Post #8
…you said what I said...that the problem if Islamic faith is the aHadith....some use for good and some for bad as you point...but the issue still the aHadith...
It’s important to note that some have used the Qur’an for bad as well. I’ve provided an illustration of this with the image below. Additionally, you yourself alluded to this fact in the following statement:

Originally Posted by sfontel
Post #4
You dont notice this, but when you use the Quran to justify and do exact what Catholics and Jews do....its only natural...they are defending what they believe as you are doing to....
Thus, ahadith is not the problem - it’s the lack of people following qualified scholarship.

Your understanding about hadith is not correct.

1 1 -
Reply

sfontel
01-05-2016, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Salaam sfontel,


It is encouraging to read that you think Muhammad :saws: was faithful to the Creator by observing the Qur’an. And, since:

…following the Qur’an will bring about peace and unity.

Your understanding of ahadith seems to be from a genuine concern for humanity. One such statement of yours that led me to this conclusion is the following:


It’s important to note that some have used the Qur’an for bad as well. I’ve provided an illustration of this with the image below. Additionally, you yourself alluded to this fact in the following statement:



Thus, ahadith is not the problem - it’s the lack of people following qualified scholarship.

Your understanding about hadith is not correct.

1 1 -
If thats is the case Islam should combo the Quran and aHadiths with a single book....Can you do that?

No, becouse like Christians and Jews, Islam will not agree upon the tradtion...

Catholics also preach that only the cleric is able to interpret the bible...something that is not based in the bible...but is diferent subject...

What I am pointing out is what most already know....

God bless!
Reply

Muhammad
01-05-2016, 10:58 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by sfontel
As do for Catholics using the Cleric tradition and the Tamuld for Jews....
You keep comparing the Hadeeth with traditions of Catholics and Jews. For anyone who does some basic research, it is very clear that such a comparison is absurd.

The Talmud (of which there are two) is a combination of Jewish Rabbis' teachings and discussions spanning hundreds of years. It didn't begin being written down until many hundreds of years after the original Torah is said to have been revealed. More than being a mere explanation of the Torah or tradition in practical Jewish life, the Talmud is more important to Jews in dictating day-to-day activities than the Torah. If the Talmud forbids something the Torah permits, it is considered forbidden; if it permits something the Torah forbids, it is permitted. In the words of a Jewish revert, it is common to meet Jews who have studied Talmud for years and can explain complex Talmudic debates, but have never read the entire Tanakh. It is also common to find households that have expended large amounts of money to buy entire sets of Talmud and Mishna but do not have a single Tanakh.

Moving on to Christianity, you seem to be referring to 'apostolic succession' claimed by Catholics for preservation of their teachings. What this really is is blind submission to an institution (the church) which is unaccountable to either scripture or history. It is a belief in councils that have the ability to infallibly define doctrines which are not in the Bible. The claim of an 'unbroken chain' is also dubious when scrutinised, considering years without popes, simultaneous popes, antipopes, popes being deposed and restored and others being outrageously sinful.

Now, how does this compare to Hadeeth? The Hadeeth are revelation from Allaah to the Prophet Muhammad :saws:. They are not the sayings of scholars and leaders living centuries later. There is no contradiction between the Qur'an and Hadeeth, rather the two are complementary. All of the teachings of Islam were revealed and the religion completed during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws:. It is not possible for people to invent 'traditions' later and create their own doctrine in the way Jews and Christians have.

When did Hadeeth begin being written down? Hadeeth were compiled and written down from the time of Prophet Muhammad :saws:. His Companions had their own scrolls/parchments/books, with the help of which other hadeeth works were compiled later onwards. There is evidence of existence of hadith collections from as early as the first century of Hijra. Moreover, Hadeeth have been preserved in memory and a huge science in Islam is dedicated to the study of narrators. Again, this is a major contrast with Islam and other religions.

Please refrain from making ignorant remarks about Islam. I would have thought you have enough to account for regarding your own religion before trying to find fault with ours.
Reply

najimuddin
01-06-2016, 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by sfontel
Post #12
No, becouse like Christians and Jews, Islam will not agree upon the tradtion...
Salaam again,

You have said that Muslims do the same thing you mentioned above with the Qur'an as well - in your words, similar to the Christians and Jews. This goes against your entire premise in this thread as quoted above. The following is your response to a member's post:
Originally Posted by sfontel
Post #4
You dont notice this, but when you use the Quran to justify and do exact what Catholics and Jews do....its only natural...they are defending what they believe as you are doing to....
Your comparisons are conflicted. Thus, this understanding is not coherent.

It is recommended that you take the time to appreciate the valuable posts that have been posted by members in this thread in relation to this. A further recommendation would be for you to register for the following online course. It starts on January 25, 2016 and costs $30.00. Financial aid is available if requested.

Uloom Al-Hadith with Shaykh Dr. Mateen Khan
Reply

Zafran
01-06-2016, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by sfontel
Salam brother...

I am sure you believe sura 6:159 to apply only to jews and christians...

But with no offence...I would call that hypocricy...

Diference of opnion is one thing...I all for it...but we are talking about..DIVISIONS....with killing, violence...

You may not agree with you father or your brother....but at the end of the day you seat down at the table to eat toguether....


Its kind of clear....and I think many muslims realize that today..

God bless!
Hadiths dont kill people - people kill people. As a Christian you should know that the bible didn't kill and create divisions between the Catholics, the protestants,, eastern orthodox church etc. Its peoples interpretation and will power to use violence and force. Mixed in with political and social issues. From the early persecution the arian hersey all the way to the KKK.

Muslims have had difference opinions for century - its usually political, economic and social differences that lead to violence.
Reply

Woodrow
01-06-2016, 03:47 AM
:wa:

The Ahadith are not only an interesting aspect of Islam, but also an integral part of Islam.

To begin, one must first understand what the Ahadith are. They are not a collection of stories, they are eyewitness accounts of What Muhammad(saws) and in some case His companions did and/or said. They are the only means we have of how Muhammad(saws) performed Islam. To read the Ahadith is very much like having Muhammad(saws) personally giving you his views of what we are to do as Muslims. The Qur'an in all it's glory and beauty, is the reason we should be Muslims, the Ahadith tell us how.

Some things we would not know withoput the Ahadith:

How to perform Hajj
The times for each of the 5 Obligatory Salat
How to perform Salat
How to fast during Ramadan
How to calculate Zakat
How and when to do Wadu
A person could be a Qurani (Quran only Muslim) but one can study the Qur'an alone for infinity and never learn how to perform Islam.

The Ahadith are not for a novice, aperson should first study the very basics of "The Science of Hadith" before reading a single Hadith. One needs to have a minimum of a basic knowledge of Isnad, The determination of Authenticity and Reliability. Only then can one feel comfortable with reading the Ahadith.

The Christians have a saying "What would Jesus(a.s.) do? We know exactly what Muhammad(saws) did in every trial he faced because of the Ahadith. While the Ahadith are similar to the Gospels of Jesus(a.s.) We do not have just the accounts of 4 writers, we have the actual eye witness reports of hundreds if not thousands of eye witnesses in the Ahadith.

First get a basic education in the "Science of Hadith" and then learn the wisdom of Ahadith.
Reply

sfontel
01-08-2016, 05:39 AM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings,

You keep comparing the Hadeeth with traditions of Catholics and Jews. For anyone who does some basic research, it is very clear that such a comparison is absurd.

The Talmud (of which there are two) is a combination of Jewish Rabbis' teachings and discussions spanning hundreds of years. It didn't begin being written down until many hundreds of years after the original Torah is said to have been revealed. More than being a mere explanation of the Torah or tradition in practical Jewish life, the Talmud is more important to Jews in dictating day-to-day activities than the Torah. If the Talmud forbids something the Torah permits, it is considered forbidden; if it permits something the Torah forbids, it is permitted. In the words of a Jewish revert, it is common to meet Jews who have studied Talmud for years and can explain complex Talmudic debates, but have never read the entire Tanakh. It is also common to find households that have expended large amounts of money to buy entire sets of Talmud and Mishna but do not have a single Tanakh.

Moving on to Christianity, you seem to be referring to 'apostolic succession' claimed by Catholics for preservation of their teachings. What this really is is blind submission to an institution (the church) which is unaccountable to either scripture or history. It is a belief in councils that have the ability to infallibly define doctrines which are not in the Bible. The claim of an 'unbroken chain' is also dubious when scrutinised, considering years without popes, simultaneous popes, antipopes, popes being deposed and restored and others being outrageously sinful.

Now, how does this compare to Hadeeth? The Hadeeth are revelation from Allaah to the Prophet Muhammad :saws:. They are not the sayings of scholars and leaders living centuries later. There is no contradiction between the Qur'an and Hadeeth, rather the two are complementary. All of the teachings of Islam were revealed and the religion completed during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws:. It is not possible for people to invent 'traditions' later and create their own doctrine in the way Jews and Christians have.

When did Hadeeth begin being written down? Hadeeth were compiled and written down from the time of Prophet Muhammad :saws:. His Companions had their own scrolls/parchments/books, with the help of which other hadeeth works were compiled later onwards. There is evidence of existence of hadith collections from as early as the first century of Hijra. Moreover, Hadeeth have been preserved in memory and a huge science in Islam is dedicated to the study of narrators. Again, this is a major contrast with Islam and other religions.

Please refrain from making ignorant remarks about Islam. I would have thought you have enough to account for regarding your own religion before trying to find fault with ours.
Dear Muhammad,

I love your answer, it shows that you know I am talking about.

And you are exact right, I am not ignorant. I just happen to believe exact what I said...which is not only my opinion...but also a few Muslims seem to see things that same way....

Its only logical....

But thanks for your point of view...

God bless!
Reply

sfontel
01-08-2016, 05:44 AM
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Salaam again,

You have said that Muslims do the same thing you mentioned above with the Qur'an as well - in your words, similar to the Christians and Jews. This goes against your entire premise in this thread as quoted above. The following is your response to a member's post:


Your comparisons are conflicted. Thus, this understanding is not coherent.

It is recommended that you take the time to appreciate the valuable posts that have been posted by members in this thread in relation to this. A further recommendation would be for you to register for the following online course. It starts on January 25, 2016 and costs $30.00. Financial aid is available if requested.

Uloom Al-Hadith with Shaykh Dr. Mateen Khan
Najimuddin,

No, its no conflicting at all....I am trying to simplify...

If the aHadiths as inspire as some said why was not combiend with the Quran as one book...

That way Islam would not be at same position as Jews and Christians....

Was just a follow up argument and not a change of mind...

God bless!
Reply

sfontel
01-08-2016, 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Hadiths dont kill people - people kill people. As a Christian you should know that the bible didn't kill and create divisions between the Catholics, the protestants,, eastern orthodox church etc. Its peoples interpretation and will power to use violence and force. Mixed in with political and social issues. From the early persecution the arian hersey all the way to the KKK.

Muslims have had difference opinions for century - its usually political, economic and social differences that lead to violence.
Zafran,

You are rigth....but that is exact the point I am arguing....

Islam says its a perfect religion...but it falls short with the very same issues as Jews and Christians...

Why? I see that aHadith as the center of the problem....but if they are inspire as some claim...them the situation got wors...

I read the Quran couple of times....somebody from work asked me...

Does the Quran teach violence?

I said...well if you take passages out of context "yes"..if not...than is no diferent from reading the violent parts of the bible.....

But what happens if you mix the aHadiths?

Simple...

God bless!
Reply

sfontel
01-08-2016, 05:58 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:wa:

The Ahadith are not only an interesting aspect of Islam, but also an integral part of Islam.

To begin, one must first understand what the Ahadith are. They are not a collection of stories, they are eyewitness accounts of What Muhammad(saws) and in some case His companions did and/or said. They are the only means we have of how Muhammad(saws) performed Islam. To read the Ahadith is very much like having Muhammad(saws) personally giving you his views of what we are to do as Muslims. The Qur'an in all it's glory and beauty, is the reason we should be Muslims, the Ahadith tell us how.

Some things we would not know withoput the Ahadith:

How to perform Hajj
The times for each of the 5 Obligatory Salat
How to perform Salat
How to fast during Ramadan
How to calculate Zakat
How and when to do Wadu
A person could be a Qurani (Quran only Muslim) but one can study the Qur'an alone for infinity and never learn how to perform Islam.

The Ahadith are not for a novice, aperson should first study the very basics of "The Science of Hadith" before reading a single Hadith. One needs to have a minimum of a basic knowledge of Isnad, The determination of Authenticity and Reliability. Only then can one feel comfortable with reading the Ahadith.

The Christians have a saying "What would Jesus(a.s.) do? We know exactly what Muhammad(saws) did in every trial he faced because of the Ahadith. While the Ahadith are similar to the Gospels of Jesus(a.s.) We do not have just the accounts of 4 writers, we have the actual eye witness reports of hundreds if not thousands of eye witnesses in the Ahadith.

First get a basic education in the "Science of Hadith" and then learn the wisdom of Ahadith.
Woodrow,

I dont know what christians you are refering to....but everything we need is in the bible....

Jews have a bunch of rituals, like bath and the way you do this and that...christians dont...

Jesus show us with the gospels that to praise God there is no need of elabored cerimonies...

God bless!
Reply

Insaanah
01-08-2016, 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by sfontel
If the aHadiths as inspire as some said why was not combiend with the Quran as one book...

That way Islam would not be at same position as Jews and Christians....
Islam is certainly NOT in the same position as Christianity and Judaism. Both their scriptures have been changed/corrupted. The Qur'an is preserved. The Prophets sunnah is preserved in records called the ahadeeth, and as mentioned, there is a whole science behind these. No other persons every action, behaviour, character, statement, from that era has been preserved in such detail and with such accuracy. We know who orignally heard/saw it, who else did, who they taught it to, who they taught it to etc. We know about the characters/memories of those who preserved the records. Christianity and Judaism has no such thing. The Qur'an is the word of God. The sunnah was taught to the Prophet (peace, blessings and salutations of God be on him) by God, so it is right that the two are distinct, but go hand in hand, together.

Peace.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
01-08-2016, 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by sfontel
Islam says its a perfect religion...but it falls short with the very same issues as Jews and Christians...

Why? I see that aHadith as the center of the problem....but if they are inspire as some claim...them the situation got wors...
You haven't understood Islam and Ahadith properly. Re-read the links that I have posted in my first response in this thread. You will find detailed discussions there.


I read the Quran couple of times....somebody from work asked me...

Does the Quran teach violence?

I said...well if you take passages out of context "yes"..if not...than is no diferent from reading the violent parts of the bible.....

But what happens if you mix the aHadiths?
Ahadeeth also have their context. You don't simply pick and mix Ahadeeth. A single Hadith may not explain the complete Sunnah. The Fuqaha and learned scholars are the ones who derive rulings using them, ie the Qur'an and Sunnah.



This topic has been explained in detail recently in another thread here: http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...ml#post2845588

Those who are willing to learn, can read more on that thread.
Reply

Woodrow
01-08-2016, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by sfontel
Woodrow,

I dont know what christians you are refering to....but everything we need is in the bible....

Jews have a bunch of rituals, like bath and the way you do this and that...christians dont...

Jesus show us with the gospels that to praise God there is no need of elabored cerimonies...

God bless!
If that is true, then Christians are performing Islam and are Muslim. Islam is simply the action of doing one's best to submit to Allaah(swt) in accordance with their abilities and knowledge. As Muslims every action, word or thought we have is a Prayer. Any rituals are simply tools to remind us of that. The Rituals are not needed for Allaah(swt) they are needed as reminders for us.
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