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TruthFollower
01-05-2016, 07:10 PM
Are all men sinners deserving of eternal punishment in Allah's view? If so, how does he atone for all man's sins against him? If he has not taken man's sins upon himself then aren't all men still guilty of sin whether they believe in Allah or not?

The Christian God provides a solution for sin through Jesus Christ, His son, which is just one of many reasons why I believe Jesus took my sins upon Himself, so that I can have eternal life. Allah does not provide a logical way to forgive my sins, so why should I believe in him?

The Christian God is described as eternally good, meaning it is good of God to create man with free will to either listen to Him and follow Him(good/life) or not(evil/death). Listening and following God is good and will result in eternal life, but not listening to God is evil and will result in death. Adam and Eve did not listen to God and therefore all men must die for evil sin, but since God is eternally good, He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior. This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.

What solution for sin does Allah provide? Are we all still guilty of sin in Allah's view, meaning we will all be eternally punished for our sins whether we believe in Allah or not?

I hope for honest answers to my questions.

Thanks!
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Insaanah
01-05-2016, 07:37 PM
Greetings Truthfollower and welcome to the forum

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Allah does not provide a logical way to forgive my sins
Is God begetting a son and having the son (who is also God) killed in a bloody, painful, slow, torturous death to atone for your sins logical?

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Adam and Eve did not listen to God and therefore all men must die for evil sin, but since God is eternally good
Which God is good? God who did not forgive Adam (peace be upon him) for eating from the tree, and made not only Adam but all subsequent generations bear a punishment from God, and made them fell out of grace with God, their relationship with God was severed, they are born into a state of sin, and death entered the world.

Or a God who forgave Adam (peace be upon him), and guided him, and has sent guidance for us all, and can forgive us all, freely, when we repent sincerely and ask sincerely, resolving not to repeat past mistakes, and does not expect perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the messengers He sent. His Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise.

With Allah forgiving Adam (peace be upon him) and honouring him and guiding him, as per Islam, none of the above is needed. In Islam, there is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of ****ation requiring a saviour. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

While guidance and the right way has been shown to us, we, as humans, have the freedom to choose, to err, and to repent sincerely, and should we do so, we will find Allah Kind & Forgiving. For all and any in the posterity of Adam, the door of returning to the right path (Islam) is always open, prior to death.

We are required to struggle, and to make effort, and to show our commitment on our part, by believing and doing good deeds, and obeying God, and the teachings he sent His messenger with. Ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

None of us can say, "We are saved". This is what the Day of Judgement is for. We strive with faith and deeds and obedience to God, do our best, and trust in His Promise, and His Justice, and hoping for His Mercy.

For Christians, this may be hard. They believe that by accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour they have an assurance of salvation, and view the Islamic position on salvation as being one of uncertainty. As a rough (not exact) analogy, the Christian position, is like one sitting an exam, but somebody has said they'll take all your bad marks for you, and if you let them do that, you'll pass. In the world, this would be viewed as cheating and as unjust. Injustice cannot be ascribed to God. The Islamic position is that of one sitting an exam, doing their best, and then awaiting their results, based on what they've done, and of course hoping for the mercy of God.

We strive, and hope for God's Mercy and trust in Him, for none is more trustworthy than He, but for Christians, it is as though they must have a guarantee from God. We need no such guarantee, and do not feel in any way compromised by not having one, which is a key point where, as demonstrated, they try to catch Muslims. None of us would have a guarantee of passing an exam until we got our results, and this is no different. What greater thing is there than Gods Mercy? We try our best and hope for His Mercy and trust in His Promise, no guarantees needed, as He is not a human who will let us down, or be unjust, on the contrary we will not be wronged by even the spot on a date stone.

Hope that helps a bit, but let us know if it doesn't and please do ask for further clarification.

Peace.
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InToTheRain
01-05-2016, 07:48 PM
:)

We don't believe Men is born with Sin but rather born in a pure state. This is why when someone embraces Islam we say that person has reverted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NdfJSS2B2I

And the solution for Sin is repentance. Allah Most High loves repentance

"Verily, Allah loves those who repent and those who purify themselves." [Al-Qur'an 2:222]

"Say: O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (because of sins), do not despair from the mercy of Allah. Verily, Allah forgives all sins. Verily, He is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al-Qur'an 39:53]

God only accounts you for what you do with what you know.
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TruthFollower
01-05-2016, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
Is God begetting a son and having the son (who is also God) killed in a bloody, painful, slow, torturous death to atone for your sins logical?
Yes, God having created man in His image, created man with free will, just like God has free will to do as He pleases. However, God is all knowing, all logically powerful and omnipresent, we are not. When He created perfect beings with free will, some freely chose to not listen to Him, causing sin/evil to enter His creation. In order to forgive His creation of it's sins and destroy evil, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus who lived a perfect life and willingly went to the cross and died for all man's sins. Jesus also being God did this by the power of God, not of man. In going to the cross and willingly laying down his life for all, God was able to destroy evil and sin and bring His creation back to Himself in perfect goodness. This is all God's perfect doing, man's only contribution is sin and evil.

Jesus is the new Adam, a perfect sinless Adam who lived and died for all people by the power of God's love, mercy, forgiveness and righteous judgment.



Originally Posted by Insaanah
Which God is good? God who did not forgive Adam (peace be upon him) for eating from the tree, and made not only Adam but all subsequent generations bear a punishment from God, and made them fell out of grace with God, their relationship with God was severed, they are born into a state of sin, and death entered the world.

Or a God who forgave Adam (peace be upon him), and guided him, and has sent guidance for us all, and can forgive us all, freely, when we repent sincerely and ask sincerely, resolving not to repeat past mistakes, and does not expect perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the messengers He sent. His Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise.

With Allah forgiving Adam (peace be upon him) and honouring him and guiding him, as per Islam, none of the above is needed. In Islam, there is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of ****ation requiring a saviour. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

While guidance and the right way has been shown to us, we, as humans, have the freedom to choose, to err, and to repent sincerely, and should we do so, we will find Allah Kind & Forgiving. For all and any in the posterity of Adam, the door of returning to the right path (Islam) is always open, prior to death.

We are required to struggle, and to make effort, and to show our commitment on our part, by believing and doing good deeds, and obeying God, and the teachings he sent His messenger with. Ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

None of us can say, "We are saved". This is what the Day of Judgement is for. We strive with faith and deeds and obedience to God, do our best, and trust in His Promise, and His Justice, and hoping for His Mercy.

For Christians, this may be hard. They believe that by accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour they have an assurance of salvation, and view the Islamic position on salvation as being one of uncertainty. As a rough (not exact) analogy, the Christian position, is like one sitting an exam, but somebody has said they'll take all your bad marks for you, and if you let them do that, you'll pass. In the world, this would be viewed as cheating and as unjust. Injustice cannot be ascribed to God. The Islamic position is that of one sitting an exam, doing their best, and then awaiting their results, based on what they've done, and of course hoping for the mercy of God.

We strive, and hope for God's Mercy and trust in Him, for none is more trustworthy than He, but for Christians, it is as though they must have a guarantee from God. We need no such guarantee, and do not feel in any way compromised by not having one, which is a key point where, as demonstrated, they try to catch Muslims. None of us would have a guarantee of passing an exam until we got our results, and this is no different. What greater thing is there than Gods Mercy? We try our best and hope for His Mercy and trust in His Promise, no guarantees needed, as He is not a human who will let us down, or be unjust, on the contrary we will not be wronged by even the spot on a date stone.

Hope that helps a bit, but let us know if it doesn't and please do ask for further clarification.

Peace.
Thank you for this, but does Allah have a way to destroy sin and evil forever? He can grant forgiveness forever, but man will continue to sin against him, unless he has a way to destroy sin and evil and restore his creation to perfection. It seems under Allah, man will just forever continue to sin and ask for forgiveness, there is never a real solution that destroys sin and evil forever. It seems a perfect God would be able to destroy sin forever so that we never have to ask for forgiveness again because we are made perfect by God. Christianity believes God has made us perfect through Jesus Christ and when we die as Jesus did we will be resurrected with perfect immortal bodies as Jesus was.

Thanks for your insight :)
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Futuwwa
01-05-2016, 10:53 PM
Allah is the omnipotent sovereign of the universe. If he decrees that your sins are forgiven, they are. End of story.
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M.I.A.
01-05-2016, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Allah does not provide a logical way to forgive my sins, so why should I believe in him?
seriously?

how old are you? ...i have to ask because recently i feel i may have been venting at children and i hope that never happens again.


allah swt is above all they associate with him, including sin.

....if you wrong yourself all you hurt is yourself...

AND also the people around you.


you become a burden. you may not see it and they may not notice it.... for a time.

that is forgiveness.

allah swt does not have to bear your burden.


chuck a piece of wood at the sky! it comes back down.


so yeah when people say this..

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
The Christian God provides a solution for sin through Jesus Christ, His son, which is just one of many reasons why I believe Jesus took my sins upon Himself, so that I can have eternal life
seriously if you could go back in time and say that too his face... and not feel ashamed...

which i sincerely hope did not happen the first time round.


...and by quranic accounts did not.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
The Christian God is described as eternally good, meaning it is good of God to create man with free will to either listen to Him and follow Him(good/life) or not(evil/death)
all mankind dies at least once.

...maybe there is more too it than that... yep you carry on...



Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Adam and Eve did not listen to God and therefore all men must die for evil sin,
ok, yep all man must die at least once..



Originally Posted by TruthFollower
He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior.
ok.


Originally Posted by TruthFollower
This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.
..but, all men must die at least once.



actually maybe at the second coming things will be different, but science will be well miffed if he does it for free.



Originally Posted by TruthFollower
What solution for sin does Allah provide?

....

.....abstinence?


or maybe just keep on doing what your doing and forget about tomorrow like you paid for it yesterday? because your neighbours will love you for it.


...most people are not punished while they are doling out the punishment.


wait what?????

my logics amaze me...


i jest like the fool i am.. my circular argument pulls the wool over no ones eyes.




i should have just wrote,


the religion of islam promotes a moral and ridged code of conduct, it does not allow for many sins and excesses..and offers forgiveness for all but one of them.

there are many ways that allah swt can forgive although i can only speculate.


...some say even illness is an expiation of sin although what you would make of that i do not know. the mercy of allah swt is innumerable.



i would say everything but punishment is forgiveness.


...yes i probably am that annoying.


but yes, maybe there is hiding of sins at the least.. if not forgiveness.. for a while anyway.



seriously, you want me to answer the question "how does god forgive sins" ? ?


the answer he kills of people you care about is never acceptable.
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TruthFollower
01-06-2016, 05:52 PM
Thank you for your response. Do I understand correctly that Allah has created a universe in which sim will always exist and he'll always have to forgive us forever? Allah exists in the presents of sin forever?

I'd imagine a perfect God would create a perfect universe with free willed beings where sin is possible, but ultimately this God would be able to destroy sin completely so as to restore His creation to sinless perfection devoid of all evil. Completely perfect creation where there is no sin or evil.

Under Allah this perfect creation seems impossible because Allah has to forgive sins forever and man will continue to sin forever. This seems like an imperfect scenario that a truly perfect God could easily overcome. How does Allah overcome the problem of having to continually forgive sin forever?

Thanks
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Futuwwa
01-06-2016, 06:22 PM
Allah doesn't continuously do so. He does so once at final judgment, and that's it. Or doesn't, and sends you to Hell.

You're operating on the Christian assumption of sinfulness as a problematic metaphysical condition that one must be freed from. We do not ascribe to such metaphysics in the first place.
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TruthFollower
01-06-2016, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Allah doesn't continuously do so. He does so once at final judgment, and that's it. Or doesn't, and sends you to Hell.
Is final judgement when you die? Or at the end of time? Either way, you're never actually forgiven until after death or at the end of time? If this is the case, why does repentance please Allah if he doesn't offer forgiveness until death or end of time? In other words, I could repent to Allah all I want and never feel forgiven because He doesn't' offer forgiveness until I die or at the end of time.

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
You're operating on the Christian assumption of sinfulness as a problematic metaphysical condition that one must be freed from. We do not ascribe to such metaphysics in the first place.
So sin is not a problem to Allah? Why does he need to forgive sin if sin is not a problem?
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M.I.A.
01-06-2016, 07:06 PM
At this point I don't even know why you are asking? Do we live on a different planet to the one Christians live on?

Or in different socio/economic climates? Or in places where conversation and relationships differ? ..to the ones you are having?

Don't know if I'm trying to convince you or myself.

Well.. To answer your question, God was here yesterday and he'll be here tomorrow..

I may not.

If he ain't seen it a million times already I'd be surprised.

..does the nature of sin change?

It's a test but I have no idea how the marking scheme works..

Although I'm sat here most days trying to make coin. :)

..and I can't even define success.

I would say God has never lived in sin.. Only ever visited on rare occasions..

And even then, the Muslim in me would make the distinction between calling them prophets pbut rather than the Christian interpretation.

God has always been above sin.

...as per your first post, sin has been around since the garden of Eden at least.
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Insaanah
01-06-2016, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
God is all knowing, all logically powerful and omnipresent, we are not.
We believe God is above the heavens, but has knowledge of everything. Allah the Exalted has complete knowledge of all thoughts that cross the mind of man, be they good or evil. He is not physically present everywhere, nor does He need to be.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
When He created perfect beings with free will, some freely chose to not listen to Him, causing sin/evil to enter His creation. In order to forgive His creation of it's sins and destroy evil, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus who lived a perfect life and willingly went to the cross and died for all man's sins. Jesus also being God did this by the power of God, not of man. In going to the cross and willingly laying down his life for all, God was able to destroy evil and sin and bring His creation back to Himself in perfect goodness. This is all God's perfect doing, man's only contribution is sin and evil.
In Islam, as I said God does not expect or demand perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the final messenger He sent. His Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Jesus is the new Adam, a perfect sinless Adam who lived and died for all people by the power of God's love, mercy, forgiveness and righteous judgment.
To kill an innocent person in a slow, bloody, painful death for sins he didn't commit, is not love, mercy or forgiveness. It is the ultimate in cruelty and injustice, ascribed falsely to God.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Thank you for this, but does Allah have a way to destroy sin and evil forever?
Humans can only sin as long as this world lasts, up to judgement day. After that, there is no more sin. It is like asking God to intervene so that there should be no evil in the world, and only good things happen. But as you said, humans have free will. So, up to our deaths and upto the day of judgement, we are free to choose our course of action.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
He can grant forgiveness forever, but man will continue to sin against him, unless he has a way to destroy sin and evil and restore his creation to perfection.
As I said before, perfection has never been demanded of us. You seem to view God forgiving as a problem, like He might get tired of Forgiving.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
It seems a perfect God would be able to destroy sin forever so that we never have to ask for forgiveness again because we are made perfect by God.
A perfect God, forgives, freely abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Not begetting a son, then having him killed. That ascribes injustice and imperfection to God. He is the Infinitely Rich, and His gifts to us, are matchless and priceless. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, continuous forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it. His attribute of being The Forgiving is always there for us. He loves us asking for Him to forgive us.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Christianity believes God has made us perfect through Jesus Christ and when we die as Jesus did we will be resurrected with perfect immortal bodies as Jesus was.
In Islam, we do not believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died, nor was crucified or killed. He was taken from this earth alive, and will return to earth near the end of time.

Also it is worth us pointing out, that the biggest sin one can commit, is to associate others in the Exclusive Divinity that belongs only and solely and uniquely to God, Glorified and Exalted be He. Whether you associate an angel, a messenger such as Jesus (peace be on him), the moon, a tree, or anything else in the divinity that belongs to God, that is a great sin.

Jesus (peace be on him) certainly didn't associate himself in Gods divinity. The message didn't suddenly change when it came to Jesus (peace on him), nor did he rebel against God and claim divinity for himself instead of or alongside God. He told people to worship Allah, "My Lord and your Lord".

Jesus (peace be on him) himself will say on the day of judgement regarding this, to God:

....."Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (Qur'an 5: part 116-117)

God also says:

It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be worshippers of me rather than/apart from/alongside Allah," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."
Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords.... (Qur'an 3:79-80, part)

Peace.
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TruthFollower
01-08-2016, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
To kill an innocent person in a slow, bloody, painful death for sins he didn't commit, is not love, mercy or forgiveness. It is the ultimate in cruelty and injustice, ascribed falsely to God.
If God chooses to become a man and die in this way in order to save humanity, is it not the greatest possible love?

Originally Posted by Insaanah
Humans can only sin as long as this world lasts, up to judgement day. After that, there is no more sin. It is like asking God to intervene so that there should be no evil in the world, and only good things happen. But as you said, humans have free will. So, up to our deaths and upto the day of judgement, we are free to choose our course of action.
I agree, but man will always be slaves to sin, unless God intervenes. If God does not intervene in any way then we have no hope to save ourselves from sin.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
As I said before, perfection has never been demanded of us. You seem to view God forgiving as a problem, like He might get tired of Forgiving.
God can only create perfection, which is why the first sin by created beings caused evil which lead to man's separation from God. Only God can restore mankind back to Himself, but a price needs to be paid to accomplish the restoration or else forgiving sin is pointless and costs God nothing.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
A perfect God, forgives, freely abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Not begetting a son, then having him killed. That ascribes injustice and imperfection to God. He is the Infinitely Rich, and His gifts to us, are matchless and priceless. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, continuous forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it. His attribute of being The Forgiving is always there for us. He loves us asking for Him to forgive us.
Originally Posted by Insaanah
In Islam, we do not believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died, nor was crucified or killed. He was taken from this earth alive, and will return to earth near the end of time.
Correct, the divinity of Jesus never died, but the man did and was resurrected.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
Jesus (peace be on him) certainly didn't associate himself in Gods divinity. The message didn't suddenly change when it came to Jesus (peace on him), nor did he rebel against God and claim divinity for himself instead of or alongside God. He told people to worship Allah, "My Lord and your Lord".
Jesus said in John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I am."

He also said:

"I am the light of the world" (8:12).
"I am He who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of me" (8:18).
"You don't know me or my Father" (8:19).
"You are from below, I am from above" (8:23).
"Unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins" (8:24).
"The things which I heard from Him [God the Father], these I speak to the world" (8:26).
"I speak these things as the Father taught me" (8:28).
"I always do the things that are pleasing to Him" (8:29).
"I speak the things which I have seen with My Father . . . " (8:38).
" . . . you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God, this Abraham did not do" (8:40).
" . . . I proceeded forth and have come from God . . . " (8:42).
"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death" (8:51).
"It is my Father who glorifies Me . . . " (8:54).
"Before Abraham was, I am" (8:58).

To me this makes it clear that Jesus was sent to this earth by God to bear witness to God's plan of redemption. The Jews rejected Jesus and killed him and God knew they would do this, but God also knew He could raise Jesus back to life and destroy death and sin in the process. In doing this God was and is the greatest by willingly becoming the very least. God humbled Himself and became the very least and became a man(Jesus) and let mankind kill Him, so that in His divinity He could destroy death and sin. Again, the only contribution man has made is evil and sin, God took it upon Himself to solve the problem of evil and sin by destroying it through the humility of Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth"
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TruthFollower
01-08-2016, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
At this point I don't even know why you are asking? Do we live on a different planet to the one Christians live on?

Or in different socio/economic climates? Or in places where conversation and relationships differ? ..to the ones you are having?

Don't know if I'm trying to convince you or myself.

Well.. To answer your question, God was here yesterday and he'll be here tomorrow..

I may not.

If he ain't seen it a million times already I'd be surprised.

..does the nature of sin change?

It's a test but I have no idea how the marking scheme works..

Although I'm sat here most days trying to make coin. :)

..and I can't even define success.

I would say God has never lived in sin.. Only ever visited on rare occasions..

And even then, the Muslim in me would make the distinction between calling them prophets pbut rather than the Christian interpretation.

God has always been above sin.

...as per your first post, sin has been around since the garden of Eden at least.
We all live on the same planet for sure :). I'm more concerned with getting to the truth of God and accepting that truth and glorifying God for His mercy and grace. Everything is made for Him and by Him, I'm here to glorify Him.

Colossians 1:16
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
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InToTheRain
01-08-2016, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
If God chooses to become a man and die in this way in order to save humanity, is it not the greatest possible love?
:)

I understand the love for someone who you believe has sacrificed their life for you. This is infact the nature of all Prophets and Massengers of God. They are chosen because of their innocence, deep love for God and His creation. They are often ridiculed and tormented for reminding others regarding why they were created:

When We sent to them two but they denied them, so We strengthened them with a third, and they said, "Indeed, we are messengers to you." They said, "You are not but human beings like us, and the Most Merciful has not revealed a thing. You are only telling lies."
They said, "Our Lord knows that we are messengers to you, And we are not responsible except for clear notification."
They said, "Indeed, we consider you a bad omen. If you do not desist, we will surely stone you, and there will surely touch you, from us, a painful punishment." (36:14-18)

"How regretful for the servants. There did not come to them any messenger except that they used to ridicule him." (36:30)


But you shouldn't confuse the noble Prophets and Massangers of God (Peace be upon them all) for God Himself.

God is only capable of doing Godly things. He does not become something that ceases to make Him a God. He does not do things that Ceases to make Him a God; such as becoming Human or dying. You can't say something is a square and a circle at the same time.

We only encompass with our knowledge that which he has allowed us. That which has limits is not capable of understanding that which has none. God is beyond being compared to His creation; He is categorically different and unique. We depend on Him and He is free of any dependance. He is All Aware and All Knowing; not even an atoms movement escapes His Knowledge. Nor does He need to become human to understand us for He understands us and our condition more than we ever could.
Reply

M.I.A.
01-08-2016, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
We all live on the same planet for sure :). I'm more concerned with getting to the truth of God and accepting that truth and glorifying God for His mercy and grace. Everything is made for Him and by Him, I'm here to glorify Him.

Colossians 1:16
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Ok, seems like you are going off on a tangent.

But your previous post mentions Ibrahim AS a few times, so take his example as a description of the all encompassing mercy of Allah swt..

I am without knowledge so I do not know how closely the Islamic story coincides with the Christian version.

If you would like to read a Quranic account that you may find.. Least offending. Then Ali/ale imran is not a bad one.. In mentioning both Jesus AS and Ibrahim AS as well as others peace and blessings be upon them.
Reply

greenhill
01-08-2016, 05:09 PM
Hi @TruthFollower , debating on many fronts I see.

Just want to ask, you keep mentioning about destroying sin. Please elaborate. How does anything destroy sin?

:peace:
Reply

M.I.A.
01-08-2016, 05:11 PM
Or reconcile the destruction of sin..

With the sacrifice of Jesus AS (allegedly) ...for the sins of mankind.

With baptism.. With regards to original sin.

Although I really am clutching at straws.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-08-2016, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
Hi TruthFollower , debating on many fronts I see.

Just want to ask, you keep mentioning about destroying sin. Please elaborate. How does anything destroy sin?

:peace:
The penalty for sin is death. God has destroyed death by what Jesus did on the cross, as I have explained. God became a perfect man and willingly sacrificed Himself(not His divinity) because it was the Father's will that Jesus do this in order to destroy death through Jesus' resurrection(only God can resurrect the dead). This is God's will that all might come to know Him through belief in Jesus Christ.
Reply

keiv
01-08-2016, 05:42 PM
Among the 99 names of Allah, Al-Ghaffar ("The Forgiving") is one of them. That alone should give answer to Muslims and non Muslims who question Allah's forgiveness.

The whole concept of God becoming part of his creation and then letting his creation kill him so his creation will have "eternal life" just seems very... oh what's the word... oh yea, illogical
Reply

greenhill
01-08-2016, 05:43 PM
Thank you.

Still, I don't get it. Why do we still have to die if death is destroyed? Death is still around, as it has been, uninterrupted, today and until Doomsday.

As is sin. That is still around today. Neither destroyed but still at large.

So what is it you are saying?

:peace:
Reply

keiv
01-08-2016, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
The penalty for sin is death. God has destroyed death by what Jesus did on the cross, as I have explained. God became a perfect man and willingly sacrificed Himself(not His divinity) because it was the Father's will that Jesus do this in order to destroy death through Jesus' resurrection(only God can resurrect the dead). This is God's will that all might come to know Him through belief in Jesus Christ.
Too complicated. Why not just take the Islam approach:

Seek forgiveness from Allah, then he will grant it to you

No son, no holy spirit, no resurrection, no cross, no destruction of death (whatever that means), etc...
Reply

M.I.A.
01-08-2016, 05:48 PM
Jesus AS also raised the dead and healed the sick.. By way of Allah swt [God]


Although I have no idea of context.


...the holy spirit is a thing but again, you would be hard pressed to find details.

Quran has references to it although it is not an Islamic way to invoke such things.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-08-2016, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
Among the 99 names of Allah, Al-Ghaffar ("The Forgiving") is one of them. That alone should give answer to Muslims and non Muslims who question Allah's forgiveness.

The whole concept of God becoming part of his creation and then letting his creation kill him so his creation will have "eternal life" just seems very... oh what's the word... oh yea, illogical
YHWH is eternal life, no beginning or end. The life He creates will live on forever, the life He destroys, due to sin, will not. The reality of life we are all currently experiencing is separation from God due to sin. Our current experiences of life are but a shadow of what God has in store for those He loves. If we are born into sin, how are we to know we are sinners in need of a savior? Only if God intervenes through His prophets and sends the message that a savior has come to save us from our sins and give us eternal life. That savior is Jesus. We would be blinded to God's glory and remain dead in our sins if He hadn't intervened on our behalf through Jesus Christ so that we might come to know His true nature of love, mercy and forgiveness and eternal life.

I can't seem to determine if Allah hates sin and death or if he's okay with allowing sin to continue on forever and allowing death to continue on forever.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-08-2016, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
Too complicated. Why not just take the Islam approach:

Seek forgiveness from Allah, then he will grant it to you
Is it Allah's desire for me to be sinless? Does he expect me to become sinless on my own or is he going to intervene and make it a reality? If he expects me to become sinless on my own, I will fail. If he's going to intervene, how will he do this or has he done it already?

You see, I put my complete trust in Jesus and know that I am forgiven by the grace of God because God has explained how my sins are forgiven and how death will not prevail over eternal life.
Reply

M.I.A.
01-08-2016, 07:07 PM
I can't seem to determine if Allah hates sin and death or if he's okay with allowing sin to continue on forever and allowing death to continue on forever.

...ok I recon that about wraps things up, welcome to life..

It would be sooo much worse if you actually cared for them.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-08-2016, 07:21 PM
[QUOTE=M.I.A.;2869082]I can't seem to determine if Allah hates sin and death or if he's okay with allowing sin to continue on forever and allowing death to continue on forever.

...ok I recon that about wraps things up, welcome to life..

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
It would be sooo much worse if you actualy cared for them
I don't follow. Cared for what exactly? Sin and death? I believe there is an eternal reality we can all experience where there is no sin and death, only life eternal. The reality we currently find ourselves in does not fit that description because we are separated from God, due to sin. God has and is and will reconcile this separation and restore His creation to sinless perfection. God can do this, no? The God I worship has already made this possible through Jesus Christ and I will proclaim this message until I die and am reunited with God in eternal life. The life I live on this earth is to glorify God for who He is and what He has done.

Again, cared for what exactly?
Reply

M.I.A.
01-08-2016, 07:33 PM
Me neither, I think.. That a language barrier separates us.

If you deal in concepts then there is a large common ground to be found between faiths.

The divisions we use to justify the differences are created by time.

How can you say one is better than the other when they only claimed to represent those that had gone before?

The God I worship has already made this possible through Jesus Christ and I will proclaim this message until I die and am reunited with God in eternal life. The life I live on this earth is to glorify God for who He is and what He has done.

That's what we say on paper.. Don't know what we are like when we actually move our mouths or use our hands and apply ourselves.

Where we will be lead to which socio/economic climate and whos company we will keep and the conversations we will have.

...and who will be listening.

I'm not really ready for dismissing all those who do not fit my ideal.

It's a learning experience.

Cared for what exactly is the question.

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists.
Reply

Insaanah
01-08-2016, 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
If God chooses to become a man and die
If a god dies, that god is not God. God is eternal, and never dies. God never has a body, never squeezes himself into a body be it one that might die. He only does things which befit His Majesty. He cannot lie, steal, cheat, nor inhabit in human or animal bodies, nor perform lowly human functions such as begetting.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
If God chooses to become a man and die in this way in order to save humanity, is it not the greatest possible love?
No. It is the greatest possible, cruelty, injustice, and limitation to power, falsely ascribed to God.

Let us imagine, a university full of medical students. Some are good, some not so good. They have an exam coming up. One of the students says that someone has said if we get any answers wrong, they'll take all our wrong answers for us. So the students are full of joy, knowing that they'll pass, even if they don't reach the mark. Think about this. Islam repeatedly calls people to reason, to ponder, to reflect.... even if that may not be comfortable for you, and even if it goes against everything you've ever believed. It invites you to re-assess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines. Are they sound? Do they resonate with the heart and mind, and logic.

Would any sane person accept, that students who got 80% of the answers wrong, should pass and become doctors, risking the public's lives? Would any sane person say that it was the ultimate act of love by the one that took the marks or sent he person to take the wrong marks? No. they would say its cheating, injustice, fraud. On the one hand, you say you want to glorify God, yet on the other hand, you believe in these convoluted notions...

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
God can only create perfection, which is why the first sin by created beings caused evil which lead to man's separation from God.
No. No reason for this to happen. Man has never been "separated" from God. That's what the Bible writers would have you believe. It is a common belief and misconception that God cannot forgive His creatures directly, and that mankind is ****ed. This makes people despair of the mercy of God. Once they become convinced that they are forever doomed, that's when the need for a saviour comes in.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Only God can restore mankind back to Himself, but a price needs to be paid to accomplish the restoration or else forgiving sin is pointless and costs God nothing.
As I said, we don't believe in any such notion of separation.

but a price needs to be paid to accomplish the restoration or else forgiving sin is pointless and costs God nothing.
Please think about what you're saying. So you're not willing to accept forgiveness from God if it cost Him nothing. On the one hand, you say you want to glorify God, yet on the other hand, you reduce Him to the level of a stingy human being who gave you a present that cost Him nothing if He forgives you freely of His will. It seems you do not attach value to His forgiveness because there was no cost. I've never heard those thoughts before. It is like viewing Allah as a human being that gave you a present that cost nothing, and you view that as being stingy and not generous. We seek Allah's refuge from that. He is the Infinitely Rich, and His gifts to us, are matchless and priceless. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, never ending forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it.

Please please think. A god who has to give up something, lose something, sacrifice something, incur a cost, is not a God. All of these are lowly human limitations that cannot be ascribed to God, glorified and exalted be He.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

You see you keep talking about the problem of sin. The problem in Christianity, actually starts with the concept of the trinity, and snowballs from there. 3 = 1 or 1 =3 depending on who you ask, while some say its a mystery. Then you have this eternal ****ation, for which you need a saviour, God has to beget a son, and have him killed etc etc. We have no such problem in Islam. The core concepts of our faith were written down from the word go, as they were revealed by God, not the words of men written 50-60 years and more after Christ (peace be on him) and the core beliefs of the faith finalised at councils 300 years later, unrecogniable from Jesus (peace be on him actually preached).

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Correct, the divinity of Jesus never died, but the man did and was resurrected.
As I have explained we do not believe Jesus was God, son of God, half man half God, nor man and God at the same time. He was a man.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God."
If the word was with God and the word was God, that makes two Gods. God with God.

With all due respect, none of your Biblical quotes above, have Jesus unequivocally saying, I am God. How can it be, that the core fundamental of your faith, is not stated clearly anywhere? If we take people who believe in God, but have never heard of Christianity or Islam, and show them John 1:1, what will they understand from it? Nothing. They might guess that there are two Gods. Now if we show them the clear statements of the Qur'an:

Say, Allah is One (112:1)
He neither begets, nor is begotten (112:3)
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." (5:72, part)

there is no doubt as to the clarity of belief.

Please also note, that the promotion of other faiths, is not allowed on the forum , as per the forum rules. The forum exists to promote the Islamic faith only.

I would take this opportunity, to urge you, to warmly invite you, to really think about what you believe in, however dearly you hold it, however long you've held it for, and to open your heart and mind to Islam. As Muslims, we love, believe in and honour and respect Jesus (peace be on him), and many ex-Christians who've embraced Islam, say they feel closer to Jesus and his true teachings than when they were Christian.

Peace.
Reply

najimuddin
01-08-2016, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
...but since God is eternally good, He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior. This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.
Greetings TruthFollower,

I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I plan on leaving my earthly life in this way, not returning to God in, as you have mentioned, perfect goodness.

Based on the above, I can't have eternal life with God.

It seems that my sin of infidelity isn't forgiven. Why have I been excluded from forgiveness and the subsequent eternal life with the, as you mention, perfect God?

As I said, I do not and :ia: will never believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.


Reply

TruthFollower
01-08-2016, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
If a god dies, that god is not God. God is eternal, and never dies. God never has a body, never squeezes himself into a body be it one that might die. He only does things which befit His Majesty. He cannot lie, steal, cheat, nor inhabit in human or animal bodies, nor perform lowly human functions such as begetting.
Right, God has never died, but by His Holy Spirit He begot a Son and sacrificed Him for all humanity's sin. This Son also willingly sacrificed Himself. This is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that has and is and will accomplish God's perfect will for all creation.

Allah created perfect beings with free will, did he not? When the first being decided to sin, what happened? Allah forgave them, right? Yet sin continues, therefore Allah continues to forgive. When does sin end according to Islam? In other words, when will Allah intervene and end sin forever? Or is he okay with letting it continue forever? This is a very logical question and I have not received a straight answer yet.


Originally Posted by Insaanah
Let us imagine, a university full of medical students. Some are good, some not so good. They have an exam coming up. One of the students says that someone has said if we get any answers wrong, they'll take all our wrong answers for us. So the students are full of joy, knowing that they'll pass, even if they don't reach the mark. Think about this. Islam repeatedly calls people to reason, to ponder, to reflect.... even if that may not be comfortable for you, and even if it goes against everything you've ever believed. It invites you to re-assess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines. Are they sound? Do they resonate with the heart and mind, and logic.

Would any sane person accept, that students who got 80% of the answers wrong, should pass and become doctors, risking the public's lives? Would any sane person say that it was the ultimate act of love by the one that took the marks or sent he person to take the wrong marks? No. they would say its cheating, injustice, fraud. On the one hand, you say you want to glorify God, yet on the other hand, you believe in these convoluted notions...
Christians believe we were all born with the wrong answers. Meaning we are all born sinners, due to Adam and Eve. Only God has the right answers, all right answers come from Him. Only God is eternally perfect and only God can make a created being who has sinned against Him, eternally perfect again. All sin is ultimately against God, so if we're all born sinners then God must intervene in a real way in order to forgive us from our sin and destroy death that is caused by sin.

Do Muslims believe they will live eternally with Allah after they die?

Originally Posted by Insaanah
Please think about what you're saying. So you're not willing to accept forgiveness from God if it cost Him nothing. On the one hand, you say you want to glorify God, yet on the other hand, you reduce Him to the level of a stingy human being who gave you a present that cost Him nothing if He forgives you freely of His will. It seems you do not attach value to His forgiveness because there was no cost. I've never heard those thoughts before. It is like viewing Allah as a human being that gave you a present that cost nothing, and you view that as being stingy and not generous. We seek Allah's refuge from that. He is the Infinitely Rich, and His gifts to us, are matchless and priceless. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, never ending forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it.

Please please think. A god who has to give up something, lose something, sacrifice something, incur a cost, is not a God. All of these are lowly human limitations that cannot be ascribed to God, glorified and exalted be He.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

You see you keep talking about the problem of sin. The problem in Christianity, actually starts with the concept of the trinity, and snowballs from there. 3 = 1 or 1 =3 depending on who you ask, while some say its a mystery. Then you have this eternal ****ation, for which you need a saviour, God has to beget a son, and have him killed etc etc. We have no such problem in Islam. The core concepts of our faith were written down from the word go, as they were revealed by God, not the words of men written 50-60 years and more after Christ (peace be on him) and the core beliefs of the faith finalised at councils 300 years later, unrecogniable from Jesus (peace be on him actually preached).
Did Allah love forgiving sin before anyone sinned against him? Or did it take someone to sin against him for him to start loving to forgive sin?

Originally Posted by Insaanah
As I have explained we do not believe Jesus was God, son of God, half man half God, nor man and God at the same time. He was a man.
I agree, Jesus was a man, but He had no human father, His father was God Himself conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is how God connects to humanity.

How does Allah interact with people except by his spirit? Allah is spirit, right? Allah's true nature is not known to us except through his spirit. Or do Muslims not believe that?

Originally Posted by Insaanah
If the word was with God and the word was God, that makes two Gods. God with God.

With all due respect, none of your Biblical quotes above, have Jesus unequivocally saying, I am God. How can it be, that the core fundamental of your faith, is not stated clearly anywhere? If we take people who believe in God, but have never heard of Christianity or Islam, and show them John 1:1, what will they understand from it? Nothing. They might guess that there are two Gods. Now if we show them the clear statements of the Qur'an:

Say, Allah is One (112:1)
He neither begets, nor is begotten (112:3)
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." (5:72, part)

there is no doubt as to the clarity of belief.

Please also note, that the promotion of other faiths, is not allowed on the forum , as per the forum rules. The forum exists to promote the Islamic faith only.

I would take this opportunity, to urge you, to warmly invite you, to really think about what you believe in, however dearly you hold it, however long you've held it for, and to open your heart and mind to Islam. As Muslims, we love, believe in and honour and respect Jesus (peace be on him), and many ex-Christians who've embraced Islam, say they feel closer to Jesus and his true teachings than when they were Christian.

Peace.
I believe God is working in both the lives of Christians and Muslims, but I do not agree with many of the teachings of Islam, particularly the teachings that promote the killing of infidels. Why would Allah rely on man to kill those who don't believe in him, this reliance on man to do the killing, limits the power of Allah. Allah should be able to give and take life as He pleases without relying on man to do this. I for one would never kill anyone for not believing Christianity to be true because I trust God will be the righteous judge of when to give and take life.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-08-2016, 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Greetings TruthFollower,

I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I plan on leaving my earthly life in this way, not returning to God in, as you have mentioned, perfect goodness.

Based on the above, I can't have eternal life with God.

It seems that my sin of infidelity isn't forgiven. Why have I been excluded from forgiveness and the subsequent eternal life with the, as you mention, perfect God?

As I said, I do not and :ia: will never believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

This conclusion you have come to is your own choosing. I have no right to threaten your life in order to coerce you to believe in Jesus. This is exactly why God has given us free will so that we may freely choose to follow Him or not. When I die, it will be because God has taken my life because He is pleased with me or displeased with me. God is eternal life, no beginning and no end, so when we die we will meet him and be judged. There is no escaping God.
Reply

najimuddin
01-08-2016, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
...but since God is eternally good, He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior. This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Greetings TruthFollower,

I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I plan on leaving my earthly life in this way, not returning to God in, as you have mentioned, perfect goodness.

Based on the above, I can't have eternal life with God.

It seems that my sin of infidelity isn't forgiven. Why have I been excluded from forgiveness and the subsequent eternal life with the, as you mention, perfect God?

As I said, I do not and will never believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
This conclusion you have come to is your own choosing. I have no right to threaten your life in order to coerce you to believe in Jesus. This is exactly why God has given us free will so that we may freely choose to follow Him or not. When I die, it will be because God has taken my life because He is pleased with me or displeased with me. God is eternal life, no beginning and no end, so when we die we will meet him and be judged. There is no escaping God.
If I can continue to sin, and you say I will be judged, this perfect God that sacrificed Jesus Christ didn't destroy sin. According to your highlighted statements above, I'll be punished for my disobedience.



Reply

M.I.A.
01-08-2016, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Right, God has never died, but by His Holy Spirit He begot a Son and sacrificed Him for all humanity's sin. This Son also willingly sacrificed Himself. This is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that has and is and will accomplish God's perfect will for all creation.

Allah created perfect beings with free will, did he not? When the first being decided to sin, what happened? Allah forgave them, right? Yet sin continues, therefore Allah continues to forgive. When does sin end according to Islam? In other words, when will Allah intervene and end sin forever? Or is he okay with letting it continue forever? This is a very logical question and I have not received a straight answer yet.




Christians believe we were all born with the wrong answers. Meaning we are all born sinners, due to Adam and Eve. Only God has the right answers, all right answers come from Him. Only God is eternally perfect and only God can make a created being who has sinned against Him, eternally perfect again. All sin is ultimately against God, so if we're all born sinners then God must intervene in a real way in order to forgive us from our sin and destroy death that is caused by sin.

Do Muslims believe they will live eternally with Allah after they die?



Did Allah love forgiving sin before anyone sinned against him? Or did it take someone to sin against him for him to start loving to forgive sin?



I agree, Jesus was a man, but He had no human father, His father was God Himself conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is how God connects to humanity.

How does Allah interact with people except by his spirit? Allah is spirit, right? Allah's true nature is not known to us except through his spirit. Or do Muslims not believe that?



I believe God is working in both the lives of Christians and Muslims, but I do not agree with many of the teachings of Islam, particularly the teachings that promote the killing of infidels. Why would Allah rely on man to kill those who don't believe in him, this reliance on man to do the killing, limits the power of Allah. Allah should be able to give and take life as He pleases without relying on man to do this. I for one would never kill anyone for not believing Christianity to be true because I trust God will be the righteous judge of when to give and take life.
Not sure what to make of the last paragraph, you elect a president. His domestic policy is for the good of the people and promotes a moral code.

..as the country or empire expands, foreign policy is not always in a similar vein.

Although it hopes to achieve a society similar to its own..beliefs.

The concept remains even without mentioning god.

But is the victor always just?

Only sinners die? ...or was it not literal?

...David vs Goliath, one must already have had a reputation for war.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-08-2016, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by najimuddin
If I can continue to sin, and you say I will be judged, this perfect God that sacrificed Jesus Christ didn't destroy sin. According to your highlighted statements above, I'll be punished for my disobedience.
If you knowingly continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of salvation, you will be judged even more harshly than someone who does not know that what they do is sin. This is evidence of God's Holy Spirit at work in us, He continually convicts us of our sin and we repent and are refined to the image of Jesus Christ who was and is perfect. This is called sanctification, the process where we submit ourselves fully to God's Holy Spirit and He makes us into a new creation. God draws us to Himself by His Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Reply

M.I.A.
01-08-2016, 10:27 PM
Keep sinning and keep winning?

...while on the other hand, no alcohol allowed..

Not a spirits joke.

...sorry, couldn't help myself..

*that's what they said*

....sorry seriously, I'm calling it a night.

A lot of people don't talk for themselves sometimes.

...il get me coat.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out?


Any claim to the spirit is rather patronising, Allah swt raises and lowers as he wills.

..and hopefully they will delete my account in the end :p
Reply

najimuddin
01-08-2016, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
If you knowingly continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of salvation, you will be judged even more harshly than someone who does not know that what they do is sin. This is evidence of God's Holy Spirit at work in us, He continually convicts us of our sin and we repent and are refined to the image of Jesus Christ who was and is perfect. This is called sanctification, the process where we submit ourselves fully to God's Holy Spirit and He makes us into a new creation. God draws us to Himself by His Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it.

May the Lord guide us all. Ameen.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-09-2016, 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Keep sinning and keep winning?

...while on the other hand, no alcohol allowed..

Not a spirits joke.

...sorry, couldn't help myself..

*that's what they said*

....sorry seriously, I'm calling it a night.

A lot of people don't talk for themselves sometimes.

...il get me coat.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out?


Any claim to the spirit is rather patronising, Allah swt raises and lowers as he wills.

..and hopefully they will delete my account in the end :p
Thanks for your time :)
Reply

TruthFollower
01-09-2016, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it.

May the Lord guide us all. Ameen.
Thank you for your time. Yes, may the Lord guide us in spirit and in truth.
Reply

Insaanah
01-09-2016, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Right, God has never died, but by His Holy Spirit He begot a Son and sacrificed Him for all humanity's sin. This Son also willingly sacrificed Himself. This is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that has and is and will accomplish God's perfect will for all creation.
As I have said, any being that has to incur a cost, incur a loss, give up something, sacrifice something, is not a god. God the Almighty, Glorified and Exalted be He, is free from such lowly human limitations. We believe in God the God, not God the father, God the son nor God the holy spirit.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Allah created perfect beings with free will, did he not? When the first being decided to sin, what happened? Allah forgave them, right? Yet sin continues, therefore Allah continues to forgive.
Correct. As long as we ask sincerely. Sometimes Allah will forgive without asking. He forgives whom He wishes.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
When does sin end according to Islam?
This ties in with what we've said about humans having free will. Free will means we have the freedom to choose to do good deeds, or bad deeds, as long as we live. Each choice we make, each deed we do, has a consequence. Good deeds incur reward, bad deeds incur sin. We can only do deeds as long as we are alive, until we die. So, for each individual, the answer is death, and for the world as a whole, upto the Day of Judgement. I think I've already mentioned this in a previous post in this thread.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
In other words, when will Allah intervene and end sin forever? Or is he okay with letting it continue forever? This is a very logical question and I have not received a straight answer yet.
Apologies if you think I haven't answered this. I'll try and be more clearer here.

We believe, as I've said before, this life is a test. We can do good, or bad, incur sin or rewards, and will be judged on that on judgement day.

Lets go back to our students sitting an exam. What if some of them, said, I am not going to sit the exam, until the examiner guarantees me that I'll pass. The examiner guarantees a pass, if they try their best, even if they fall short of the pass mark. Is that fair or correct? No.

Now let's imagine the exam is in progress. Some students are getting the answers wrong, and the examiner knows they are. Should he stop the exam, and intervene, so that nobody writes wrong answers? No. This is completely wrong and illogical.

If people have free will, can do good or bad, then God has no reason to try to stop the consequences of that. That beats the purpose of free will. Beats the purpose of the test. God is not going to intervene to stop bad deeds or sin.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Christians believe we were all born with the wrong answers. Meaning we are all born sinners, due to Adam and Eve.
That is your belief then. We believe humans are created with the capacity to do good, and also bad, and we are given guidance and instruction to do good and avoid bad, as part of our test.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Only God is eternally perfect
But if you assert that He has to incur a loss, incur a cost, give up something, sacrifice something, then that means He's not perfect. We, as Muslims, believe in a perfect God, who has no need to, and does not, nor ever did, beget, sacrifice, or dwell in human or animal bodies.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
only God can make a created being who has sinned against Him, eternally perfect again.
As I've said, we don't need to be perfect, but to try our very best in obeying God and His final messenger. As I've explained this all in previous posts, I won't restate it here, but ask that you read those again.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
All sin is ultimately against God
The greatest of which is to associate others (such as Jesus , peace be on him) in God's Exclusive Divinity.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
if we're all born sinners then God must intervene in a real way in order to forgive us from our sin and destroy death that is caused by sin.
We don't believe that death is caused by sin. This life is our test. We are born, and we die, which is our lifespan - birth and death is not a consequence of sin, but the beginning and end of this earthly life.

Blessed is He in whose hand is dominion, and He is over all things competent - [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving..(67:1-2)

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Do Muslims believe they will live eternally with Allah after they die?
If we reach paradise, then yes, God willing.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Did Allah love forgiving sin before anyone sinned against him? Or did it take someone to sin against him for him to start loving to forgive sin?
This is a bit like those questions people ask about matters of the unknown, that we don't delve into and have no relevance to us.

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira (May Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
Men will continue to question one another till this is propounded: Allah created all things but who created Allah? He who found himself confronted with such a situation should say: I affirm my faith in Allah.
(Sahih Muslim 134a)

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
How does Allah interact with people except by his spirit? Allah is spirit, right? Allah's true nature is not known to us except through his spirit. Or do Muslims not believe that?
We do not say Allah is made of any material, Glorified and Exalted be He. The answer again, is as directly above.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
I believe God is working in both the lives of Christians and Muslims, but I do not agree with many of the teachings of Islam, particularly the teachings that promote the killing of infidels. Why would Allah rely on man to kill those who don't believe in him, this reliance on man to do the killing, limits the power of Allah. Allah should be able to give and take life as He pleases without relying on man to do this. I for one would never kill anyone for not believing Christianity to be true because I trust God will be the righteous judge of when to give and take life.
If that was an Islamic teaching, there would be no non-Muslims in this world!

Peace.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-09-2016, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
This ties in with what we've said about humans having free will. Free will means we have the freedom to choose to do good deeds, or bad deeds, as long as we live. Each choice we make, each deed we do, has a consequence. Good deeds incur reward, bad deeds incur sin. We can only do deeds as long as we are alive, until we die. So, for each individual, the answer is death, and for the world as a whole, upto the Day of Judgement. I think I've already mentioned this in a previous post in this thread.
What brings about the Day of Judgement?

Christians believe there will be an abomination that causes desolation in the latter days which will begin the end time Great Tribulation. This Great Tribulation is God's judgment on all the ungodly of the earth, some will come out saved, but most will suffer God's wrath for their ungodliness and after this Great Tribulation, Jesus will come back and establish peace for a 1000yrs, the way it was always meant to be and from there eternal life for all those that God loves.

Is there a trigger that causes the end time Day of Judgement from Allah? If there is, why doesn't Allah love to forgive this trigger that causes the Day of Judgement? Does he decide to stop loving to forgive sin and begin hating sin? This is what I don't understand about Allah, he loves to forgive sin therefore he has no reason to stop people from sinning because he loves to forgive them, forever. By this logic, there will never be an end time Day of Judgement, if anything, humanity will become perfect in Allah's view because everyone will being doing good deeds and not bad deeds, therefore he will no longer need to forgive anyone, but this might make him mad because he loves to forgive sin. Do you see why I'm confused?

Also, it's important to point out that God of the Bible loves believers and unbelievers, but He hates sin and wants to destroy sin in our life and spare us from His wrath against sin and evil. He has done this through Jesus Christ.

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8

Allah doesn't seem to mind sin, he actually loves to forgive it, but he does not love the unbelievers.

QUR’AN 3:31-32—SAY [O MUHAMMAD]: IF YOU LOVE ALLAH, THEN FOLLOW ME, ALLAH WILL LOVE YOU AND FORGIVE YOU YOUR FAULTS, AND ALLAH IS FORGIVING, MERCIFUL. SAY: OBEY ALLAH AND THE APOSTLE; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT LOVE THE UNBELIEVERS.

This also implies that Allah is more interested in making unbelievers into muslims, rather than freeing them from their sin, but I understand you don't believe we need freed from our sin.

The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”, He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell. God’s salvation is a free gift that only needs to be received to become active. Your sins in exchange for His righteousness and a full and free eternal pardon.


Originally Posted by Insaanah
Lets go back to our students sitting an exam. What if some of them, said, I am not going to sit the exam, until the examiner guarantees me that I'll pass. The examiner guarantees a pass, if they try their best, even if they fall short of the pass mark. Is that fair or correct? No.

Now let's imagine the exam is in progress. Some students are getting the answers wrong, and the examiner knows they are. Should he stop the exam, and intervene, so that nobody writes wrong answers? No. This is completely wrong and illogical.

If people have free will, can do good or bad, then God has no reason to try to stop the consequences of that. That beats the purpose of free will. Beats the purpose of the test. God is not going to intervene to stop bad deeds or sin.
God has free will as well, what if His plan all along was to save those who believe in Him from their sin? It's not God's fault that we sin, but even still, what if out of His great love He still chose to save us from it, even while we were sinners? A free gift that we just have to accept. Allah has no desire to save us from our sin, he only wants to forgive continually, which means an end time Day of Judgement would be illogical. If it's Allah's plan to continually forgive sin forever and never destroy this earth and create new, then that's fine, but I'm not sure that that's what Islam teaches, therefore inconsistent theology that I have a hard time believing. I understand you think God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is illogical and thats fine as well, but I respectfully disagree. After all as humans we are made up of spirit, soul and body, 3 in 1.
Reply

najimuddin
01-09-2016, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
...but since God is eternally good, He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior. This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Greetings TruthFollower,

I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I plan on leaving my earthly life in this way, not returning to God in, as you have mentioned, perfect goodness.

Based on the above, I can't have eternal life with God.

It seems that my sin of infidelity isn't forgiven. Why have I been excluded from forgiveness and the subsequent eternal life with the, as you mention, perfect God?

As I said, I do not and will never believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
This conclusion you have come to is your own choosing. I have no right to threaten your life in order to coerce you to believe in Jesus. This is exactly why God has given us free will so that we may freely choose to follow Him or not. When I die, it will be because God has taken my life because He is pleased with me or displeased with me. God is eternal life, no beginning and no end, so when we die we will meet him and be judged. There is no escaping God.
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Originally Posted by najimuddin

If I can continue to sin, and you say I will be judged, this perfect God that sacrificed Jesus Christ didn't destroy sin. According to your highlighted statements above, I'll be punished for my disobedience.
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
If you knowingly continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of salvation, you will be judged even more harshly than someone who does not know that what they do is sin. This is evidence of God's Holy Spirit at work in us, He continually convicts us of our sin and we repent and are refined to the image of Jesus Christ who was and is perfect. This is called sanctification, the process where we submit ourselves fully to God's Holy Spirit and He makes us into a new creation. God draws us to Himself by His Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it.

May the Lord guide us all. Ameen.
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Thank you for your time. Yes, may the Lord guide us in spirit and in truth.
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”, He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell.
Greetings again TruthFollower,

Would I be correct in saying that because I will :ia: never become sanctified, my penalty will be an eternity in Hell after a harsh judgement?

This harsh judgement will be due to my sin of knowingly rejecting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

From what I understand, God will destroy me for this. And, according to the above, this destruction will be an eternity in Hell.
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
The life He creates will live on forever, the life He destroys, due to sin, will not.
Please keep in mind of what I mentioned in the above posts.
Reply

Insaanah
01-10-2016, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
What brings about the Day of Judgement?

Christians believe there will be an abomination that causes desolation in the latter days which will begin the end time Great Tribulation. This Great Tribulation is God's judgment on all the ungodly of the earth, some will come out saved, but most will suffer God's wrath for their ungodliness and after this Great Tribulation, Jesus will come back and establish peace for a 1000yrs, the way it was always meant to be and from there eternal life for all those that God loves.

Is there a trigger that causes the end time Day of Judgement from Allah?
I'll try to find a comprehensive link on the day of judgement and events leading up to it and post it in this thread, God willing.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
If there is, why doesn't Allah love to forgive this trigger that causes the Day of Judgement?
Any trigger for the Day of Judgement is totally unrelated to sin. The day of judgement has a fixed time, when it will happen, and we don't know when that is. However, there are some signs that have to be fulfilled before it can happen.

This thread has been about the concept of forgiveness vs atonement. You believe your sins are atoned for by what you perceive to be the death and resurrection of Christ, peace be on him. We believe that our sins, can be forgiven, without a price such as happens in atonement. As I mentioned in my previous post, Allah forgives whom He wishes. We need to ask sincerely, to repent, to try our best not to repeat past mistakes.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Does he decide to stop loving to forgive sin and begin hating sin? This is what I don't understand about Allah, he loves to forgive sin therefore he has no reason to stop people from sinning because he loves to forgive them, forever.
This is no different to asking, well if Jesus died for everyone's sins, on the day of judgement, is his death not a waste if there are no more people whose sins he could have died for.

Regardless, I will answer it.

Does he decide to stop loving to forgive sin and begin hating sin?
I don't remember mentioning anywhere that God loves sin. Forgiving sin does not mean sin is loved. Yet despite us sinning, God loves to forgive His slaves, if they truly repent, are truly sorry, ask sincerely, and try their best to avoid past mistakes. So the question "does God begin to hate sin", does not come into the picture here.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
By this logic, there will never be an end time Day of Judgement, if anything, humanity will become perfect in Allah's view because everyone will being doing good deeds and not bad deeds, therefore he will no longer need to forgive anyone, but this might make him mad because he loves to forgive sin. Do you see why I'm confused?
I think you have confused yourself. Islam is based on truth that resonates with the heart and mind, and the truth is simple and clear, nothing complex nor convoluted about it.

By this logic, there will never be an end time Day of Judgement
That's by your own logic, nothing I've said implies that. The day of Judgement has a fixed time, and will happen then, and its timing has nothing to do with sin per se.

if anything, humanity will become perfect in Allah's view because everyone will being doing good deeds and not bad deeds
You don't do deeds on the day of judgement. That is the day of being judged.

therefore he will no longer need to forgive anyone
Allah is so merciful that even on the day of judgement, there are still some chances. There are numerous opportunities of forgiveness and mercy on that Day eg. various types of intercession, people entering paradise without reckoning, and even after people have been put into Hellfire, some people will be removed by Allah's mercy.

but this might make him mad because he loves to forgive sin.
Please speak with respect about God. Once you acknowledge that God is Glorified and Exalted, then you would know that He exhibits each of His attributes to us in a manner befitting His Majesty, as and when and how He wishes, not confined to our limited sphere of thinking, as He is all Knowing, all Wise.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Do you see why I'm confused?
I am not sure why simplicity and clarity seems so hard for you, and everything has to be so convoluted and complicated.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Also, it's important to point out that God of the Bible loves believers and unbelievers, but He hates sin and wants to destroy sin in our life and spare us from His wrath against sin and evil. He has done this through Jesus Christ.
And according to Christianity, should anyone not accept Jesus as saviour, then they are doomed to hell?

Allah doesn't seem to mind sin, he actually loves to forgive it, but he does not love the unbelievers.

QUR’AN 3:31-32—SAY [O MUHAMMAD]: IF YOU LOVE ALLAH, THEN FOLLOW ME, ALLAH WILL LOVE YOU AND FORGIVE YOU YOUR FAULTS, AND ALLAH IS FORGIVING, MERCIFUL. SAY: OBEY ALLAH AND THE APOSTLE; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT LOVE THE UNBELIEVERS.

This also implies that Allah is more interested in making unbelievers into muslims, rather than freeing them from their sin, but I understand you don't believe we need freed from our sin.

The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”, He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell. God’s salvation is a free gift that only needs to be received to become active. Your sins in exchange for His righteousness and a full and free eternal pardon.
Allah doesn't seem to mind sin, he actually loves to forgive it, but he does not love the unbelievers.
Sin is certainly not liked in Islam either, even though Allah is so merciful so as to love forgiving his truly repentant slaves who are sorry for what they've done.

In Islam, we are not commanded to love everyone regardless of anything, not to hate everyone regardless of anything. We adopt a balance, just, middle course. There will be people we love more than others, naturally, and in different ways. And not loving someone, does not equate to hate. We have concern for a person's guidance and rectification and salvation.

This also implies that Allah is more interested in making unbelievers into muslims, rather than freeing them from their sin, but I understand you don't believe we need freed from our sin.
As I've said before, and will say again, this life is our test. We have been given guidance and instruction, through the prophets and messengers God sent, on how to live, and how to worship him Him, and been informed that we will have to account for our deeds on judgment day. This world, is not for God to intervene in, but for us to try our best in following God's guidance. There is no concept of having to free someone from sin. Our good and bad deeds will be judged on judgement day, by The Most Just. He is the Most Merciful, so we have hope on that day too.

The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”,
Which is why I presume, if you don't accept Jesus as saviour (ie become a Christian), you are doomed to hell?

He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell. God’s salvation is a free gift that only needs to be received to become active. Your sins in exchange for His righteousness and a full and free eternal pardon.
God's guidance to mankind is a free gift, that should be received and accepted, not a bloody torturous sacrifice.

God has free will as well, what if His plan all along was to save those who believe in Him from their sin? It's not God's fault that we sin, but even still, what if out of His great love He still chose to save us from it, even while we were sinners? A free gift that we just have to accept. Allah has no desire to save us from our sin, he only wants to forgive continually, which means an end time Day of Judgement would be illogical. If it's Allah's plan to continually forgive sin forever and never destroy this earth and create new, then that's fine, but I'm not sure that that's what Islam teaches, therefore inconsistent theology that I have a hard time believing. I understand you think God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is illogical and thats fine as well, but I respectfully disagree. After all as humans we are made up of spirit, soul and body, 3 in 1.
Imagine if somebody leaves a message on your answerphone. "Truthfollower, there's a multimillion dollar palace awaiting you, the owner loves you and wants you to have it, all you have to do is ring this number, pay $100 admin fee, and confirm your acceptance, and it's all yours, for free." You'd most likely delete it as a scam, or perhaps report it to the police. But what if they also said to you, that "if you don't accept this offer, you'll become homeless and have nowhere to go". Now you'd feel scared, pressured even perhaps. For you to pay the $100 dollar believing you were going to get this house, you'd have to be quite gullible. Thats just a matter of this world. All you'd have lost was nothing or perhaps $100 dollars. But what about when you gamble with your life in the hereafter, your very salvation? The issue of salvation seems to be the biggest obstacle for Christians who can see that Islamic teachings resonate with the heart and mind, are clear and simple. They know the concept of God and of forgiveness as opposed to vicarious atonement, makes sense. But they can't give up the fact that they feel they have a free ticket to heaven. They cling on to it. Even though they know it doesn't make sense. False hope is a bad thing.

As I have said and will say yet again, we believe this life is a test, we have been given guidance, and we can do good or bad, and we will be judged according to that on the day of judgement. Simple. What is complicated about that? If you sit an exam it is marked, and you get results. It is as simple as that. On the Day of Judgement, there will be people who go to heaven, and people that go to hell. But nobody enters paradise without God's mercy. And God will be merciful to many on that day too, before people are sent to heaven or hell, as already mentioned.

Allah has no desire to save us from our sin
If that was the case, then he would not have sent prophets and messengers to people throughout the ages, to convey His message to them, and with guidance to show people how He wants them to live and worship Him. They endured hardships to convey His message to us. Allah has sent Prophets throughout the ages who would spend years and years, day and night, calling their people to the right path with the aid of scriptures, logical arguments and miracles. They would endure ridicule, exile and even death for the sake of this. This is a manifestation of Allah’s Mercy and concern for the whole of mankind and how His Prophets were also keen for their people's guidance.

The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

The Qur’an expresses a desire for people to be guided and to turn away from that which will harm them.

he only wants to forgive continually, which means an end time Day of Judgement would be illogical.
I have already explained this above.

If it's Allah's plan to continually forgive sin forever and never destroy this earth and create new, then that's fine, but I'm not sure that that's what Islam teaches, therefore inconsistent theology that I have a hard time believing.
I am sorry if you don't understand what I wrote. You are free to believe or not to, as part of your free will. We just convey the message.

I understand you think God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is illogical and thats fine as well, but I respectfully disagree. After all as humans we are made up of spirit, soul and body, 3 in 1.
We have heard all the main analogies:

egg - white yolk shell,
water - solid liquid gas,
woman - mother sister daughter,
flame - light heat and fire,
pottery - clay fire and water

pretty much all of them, to attempt to explain the trinity, none of which succeeds. Incidentally we believe that we have souls inside our bodies. We do not believe in a spirit aspect.

Peace.
Reply

OmAbdullah
01-10-2016, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Yes, God having created man in His image, created man with free will, just like God has free will to do as He pleases. However, God is all knowing, all logically powerful and omnipresent, we are not. When He created perfect beings with free will, some freely chose to not listen to Him, causing sin/evil to enter His creation. In order to forgive His creation of it's sins and destroy evil, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus who lived a perfect life and willingly went to the cross and died for all man's sins. Jesus also being God did this by the power of God, not of man. In going to the cross and willingly laying down his life for all, God was able to destroy evil and sin and bring His creation back to Himself in perfect goodness. This is all God's perfect doing, man's only contribution is sin and evil.

Jesus is the new Adam, a perfect sinless Adam who lived and died for all people by the power of God's love, mercy, forgiveness and righteous judgment.





Thank you for this, but does Allah have a way to destroy sin and evil forever? He can grant forgiveness forever, but man will continue to sin against him, unless he has a way to destroy sin and evil and restore his creation to perfection. It seems under Allah, man will just forever continue to sin and ask for forgiveness, there is never a real solution that destroys sin and evil forever. It seems a perfect God would be able to destroy sin forever so that we never have to ask for forgiveness again because we are made perfect by God. Christianity believes God has made us perfect through Jesus Christ and when we die as Jesus did we will be resurrected with perfect immortal bodies as Jesus was.

Thanks for your insight


In fact you are deceiving yourself. Your belief is that all those Christians who are committing horrible crimes like they have filled up the land of Allah with killing and blood-shed are forgiven and will not be punished for their killing. This is a very bad accusation on God who is High Above any defect. God cannot be unjust and is the Greatest of Judges. So God shall pass judgment and everyone shall be accounted for his/her faith and deeds. The very first question shall be about faith. God is the Creator, is above all the creatures and didn't allow anyone to associate parter or relative or helper to HIM. God is One, Single and Unique. None can be HIS son or equal. So at that time you will ask Jesus to help you but he will hate you. Check my point in your own Bible. You will find it true.

So when you are caught on that Very Great Day of Judgment, you will have no way to escape but the only place for you will be the Ever-Lasting Fire. then you shall remember the advice of sincere Muslims but in vain. So this is the only time to use your mind and choose the Truth of Islam. If you don't then you are harming no one except yourself. May Allah guide you to use your wisdom and protect yourself from the Ever-Lasting Hell, aameen.
Reply

Futuwwa
01-10-2016, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Is final judgement when you die? Or at the end of time? Either way, you're never actually forgiven until after death or at the end of time? If this is the case, why does repentance please Allah if he doesn't offer forgiveness until death or end of time? In other words, I could repent to Allah all I want and never feel forgiven because He doesn't' offer forgiveness until I die or at the end of time.

So sin is not a problem to Allah? Why does he need to forgive sin if sin is not a problem?
You're not getting it. The notion of sin being some objective reality, a metaphysical condition a person can be in, is uniquely Christian. In Islam, it isn't. It's just a concept used to describe violation of God's commandments. It's not a state of being.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-11-2016, 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
I'll try to find a comprehensive link on the day of judgement and events leading up to it and post it in this thread, God willing.
Thank you, I appreciate that. May we all trust that God wants us to honestly question so that we may know the Truth by His grace and not of ourselves.



Originally Posted by Insaanah
Any trigger for the Day of Judgement is totally unrelated to sin. The day of judgement has a fixed time, when it will happen, and we don't know when that is. However, there are some signs that have to be fulfilled before it can happen.
It seems as though Allah has created us in this universe only to test us.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
This thread has been about the concept of forgiveness vs atonement. You believe your sins are atoned for by what you perceive to be the death and resurrection of Christ, peace be on him. We believe that our sins, can be forgiven, without a price such as happens in atonement. As I mentioned in my previous post, Allah forgives whom He wishes. We need to ask sincerely, to repent, to try our best not to repeat past mistakes.
Originally Posted by Insaanah
This is no different to asking, well if Jesus died for everyone's sins, on the day of judgement, is his death not a waste if there are no more people whose sins he could have died for.
Jesus' death would be pointless if it was not to save all from God's wrath against satan and evil, which caused sin in man. God has and is and will defeat satan and his followers. I'm sure you also hope and pray for the destruction of satan and evil and sin?

Originally Posted by Insaanah
I don't remember mentioning anywhere that God loves sin.
I didn't say He does. I said that Allah loves to forgive sin, but doesn't necessarily hate sin. My understanding of Allah is coming from you.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
Forgiving sin does not mean sin is loved. Yet despite us sinning, God loves to forgive His slaves, if they truly repent, are truly sorry, ask sincerely, and try their best to avoid past mistakes. So the question "does God begin to hate sin", does not come into the picture here.
I don't want to worship a god who doesn't hate sin. I hate sin because it's caused by evil, therefore it would make sense that the God I worship hated sin and evil before I did. However, because of God's mercy, he allows sin and evil in order to fulfill His plan of redemption. So the God I worship allows evil because it's leading to an everlasting good that He can clearly see because He's all knowing, but I cannot see because of my limited perspective, but eventually I will see.

1 Corinthians 13:12
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.


Originally Posted by Insaanah
I think you have confused yourself. Islam is based on truth that resonates with the heart and mind, and the truth is simple and clear, nothing complex nor convoluted about it.
I don't want to rely on man for truth, I want to rely on God's truth. I'm sure you agree.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
I am not sure why simplicity and clarity seems so hard for you, and everything has to be so convoluted and complicated.
I'm sorry, it is becoming more clear to me that Allah is not a God I want to worship, simply because He doesn't seem to hate sin caused by evil. The God I worship, loves His creation, but hates evil which has tainted His creation with sin, therefore He has chosen to send His only begotten Son to die for all, that all who believe will be saved from their sin and ultimately saved from His righteous wrath against satan and sin.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
And according to Christianity, should anyone not accept Jesus as saviour, then they are doomed to hell?
God will continue to try and reach you. You wouldn't be alive if God did not have a plan to save you. Those who reject Christ to their death will have to face God's wrath against them as sinners.



Originally Posted by Insaanah
Sin is certainly not liked in Islam either, even though Allah is so merciful so as to love forgiving his truly repentant slaves who are sorry for what they've done.
True believers of Jesus, hate sin because it's caused by evil and a true believer is viewed as a child of God, not a slave of God.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
In Islam, we are not commanded to love everyone regardless of anything, not to hate everyone regardless of anything. We adopt a balance, just, middle course. There will be people we love more than others, naturally, and in different ways. And not loving someone, does not equate to hate. We have concern for a person's guidance and rectification and salvation.
Under Christ, we are commanded to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and love each other as ourselves.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
As I've said before, and will say again, this life is our test. We have been given guidance and instruction, through the prophets and messengers God sent, on how to live, and how to worship him Him, and been informed that we will have to account for our deeds on judgment day. This world, is not for God to intervene in, but for us to try our best in following God's guidance. There is no concept of having to free someone from sin. Our good and bad deeds will be judged on judgement day, by The Most Just. He is the Most Merciful, so we have hope on that day too.
Under Christ, the purpose of my life on this earth is to glorify God for who He is and what He's done. Why would God create anything other than to glorify Himself?

Originally Posted by Insaanah
We have heard all the main analogies:

egg - white yolk shell,
water - solid liquid gas,
woman - mother sister daughter,
flame - light heat and fire,
pottery - clay fire and water

pretty much all of them, to attempt to explain the trinity, none of which succeeds. Incidentally we believe that we have souls inside our bodies. We do not believe in a spirit aspect.

Peace.
I'm glad you're open to understanding what true Christians believe. :)
Reply

TruthFollower
01-11-2016, 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by najimuddin
Greetings again TruthFollower,

Would I be correct in saying that because I will :ia: never become sanctified, my penalty will be an eternity in Hell after a harsh judgement?
I think it's silly for one to say that something will never happen to them. Anything that's possible in this reality could happen to any one of us at any time.

Originally Posted by najimuddin
This harsh judgement will be due to my sin of knowingly rejecting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
True.

Originally Posted by najimuddin
From what I understand, God will destroy me for this. And, according to the above, this destruction will be an eternity in Hell.
Please keep in mind of what I mentioned in the above posts.
Occasionally when someone accepts Christ as their savior, it's because they are experiencing "hell on earth", a traumatic experience. It is true that when you become a true Christian, your old sinful nature is destroyed and you become a new person, ready to love and serve others to the glory of God. This is God at work in you, not of your own doing, all you've contributed is sin.

I think it's quite simple and beautiful how God works in His creation in order to restore it to sinless perfection devoid of evil. :) From our perspective this is an ongoing process, but from God's perspective it is finished. He has a unique perspective :)
Reply

Search
01-11-2016, 04:55 AM
:bism:

Brother, thank you for your interest in this subject and your willingness to try to understand the subject.

Please understand Islam doesn't believe in a "sinful" human nature as all our souls are divine and pure and devoid of evil. However, the nafs (blameworhty ego) makes designs to gain mastery over the individual; and when that individual's nafs (blameworthy self) overpowers the soul, this leads to sin. Also, Islam maintains the view that even the best of humanity cannot have any inclination to sin destroyed, only mastered with control over the nafs (blameworthy ego).

In Islam, sinless perfection is not attributed to human beings but only God. Allah SWT has a unique perspective, that is true; and in Islam, the unique perspective of Allah SWT is that Allah SWT honored us as creation and that honor means that Allah SWT is merciful enough to forgive sins within the framework of owning up to personal responsibility in committing those sins and then knowing within the framework of owning the highest opinion of God that God has forgiven those sins regardless of the nature or smallness or bigness of the sins.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
It is true that when you become a true Christian, your old sinful nature is destroyed and you become a new person, ready to love and serve others to the glory of God. This is God at work in you, not of your own doing, all you've contributed is sin.

I think it's quite simple and beautiful how God works in His creation in order to restore it to sinless perfection devoid of evil. :) From our perspective this is an ongoing process, but from God's perspective it is finished. He has a unique perspective :)
Reply

najimuddin
01-11-2016, 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
I think it's silly for one to say that something will never happen to them. Anything that's possible in this reality could happen to any one of us at any time.
What you may think is silly, is actually very serious.

You have said that someone who dies knowingly rejecting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be destroyed in Hell for eternity after a harsh judgement. You have said this explicitly in the above posts.

This person who knowingly rejects Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior is a disbeliever, who will be deprived of eternal life with God, as he or she will be put in Hell for eternity.

From what you have told me, this perfect God that you mention, does not love people who die as unbelievers that knowingly reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. It seems, from what you have mentioned above, that they are also associated with Satan.

From this it is clear to me that all are not saved by the perfect God who sacrificed Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not die for all of humankind's sins. Jesus Christ dying on the cross did not save the people who have died committing the most egregious sin - knowingly rejecting him as Lord and Savior.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-11-2016, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by najimuddin
What you may think is silly, is actually very serious.
Yes, dying while rejecting the truth of God is very serious indeed. However, you nor I have experienced physical death so we don't know what happens. It is possible that right before physical death God intervenes and gives a last chance of acceptance of His Truth. I don't know for sure of course, but knowing how merciful God is, I could see this as a possibility. The Bible teaches that every tongue will confess, either willingly before physical death or unwillingly after physical death.

Romans 14:11
It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"

One reason I'm alive is so that I can read these words and have fear of the Lord, which motivates me to seek Him and do His will so that I can feel His love.

Originally Posted by najimuddin
You have said that someone who dies knowingly rejecting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be destroyed in Hell for eternity after a harsh judgement. You have said this explicitly in the above posts.
No human alive today knows exactly how this plays out because we haven't died yet, but one thing is certain and that is that God is the righteous judge, there will be no excuses when He judges.

Originally Posted by najimuddin
This person who knowingly rejects Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior is a disbeliever, who will be deprived of eternal life with God, as he or she will be put in Hell for eternity.

From what you have told me, this perfect God that you mention, does not love people who die as unbelievers that knowingly reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. It seems, from what you have mentioned above, that they are also associated with Satan.

From this it is clear to me that all are not saved by the perfect God who sacrificed Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not die for all of humankind's sins. Jesus Christ dying on the cross did not save the people who have died committing the most egregious sin - knowingly rejecting him as Lord and Savior.
God can't stop people from rejecting Him and therefore being rejected by Him. Why would God be obligated to love someone who has rejected Him to their death? He'll do all He can to show you the misery of separation from Him in this life, but what happens after this life, only God knows. The truth either hurts for awhile in this life and then turns to joy or it hurts eternally in the next and joy is never found again. The truth can give freedom from sin in this life, which results in pure peace and joy and freedom from death and evil in the next, which results in pure eternal peace and joy.
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Eric H
01-11-2016, 02:34 PM
Greetings and peace be with you TruthFollower; and welcome to the forum from a Catholic,

I don't want to rely on man for truth, I want to rely on God's truth. I'm sure you agree.
I always feel the truth means more, when we use it to try and change ourselves, rather than when we use it to try and change other people.

Having been on this forum for ten years now, I have a profound respect for my Muslim brothers and sisters. They fear God, pray five times a day, observe fasts, dress modestly and they take families seriously.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric
Reply

TruthFollower
01-11-2016, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism:

Brother, thank you for your interest in this subject and your willingness to try to understand the subject.

Please understand Islam doesn't believe in a "sinful" human nature as all our souls are divine and pure and devoid of evil. However, the nafs (blameworhty ego) makes designs to gain mastery over the individual; and when that individual's nafs (blameworthy self) overpowers the soul, this leads to sin. Also, Islam maintains the view that even the best of humanity cannot have any inclination to sin destroyed, only mastered with control over the nafs (blameworthy ego).

In Islam, sinless perfection is not attributed to human beings but only God. Allah SWT has a unique perspective, that is true; and in Islam, the unique perspective of Allah SWT is that Allah SWT honored us as creation and that honor means that Allah SWT is merciful enough to forgive sins within the framework of owning up to personal responsibility in committing those sins and then knowing within the framework of owning the highest opinion of God that God has forgiven those sins regardless of the nature or smallness or bigness of the sins.
Thank you for your response. My issue with this is that it seems as if Allah is able to forgive any sin no matter what it is and therefore sin in man is not a problem to him. If sin in man is not a problem to Allah, why does he view it as needing to be forgiven?

If sin in man is a problem to Allah, then how does he plan to destroy it so that we can be eternally forgiven(never having to ask for forgiveness again) or has he already provided a way to destroy it and offer eternal forgiveness, not just temporary forgiveness until we sin again?

If Allah does not provide a way to destroy/erase sin, then man will continue to sin and continue to require forgiveness, forever. Is this what Allah wants? Or is it that man can destroy/erase/forgive his own sin by doing good deeds?
Reply

TruthFollower
01-11-2016, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you TruthFollower; and welcome to the forum from a Catholic,



I always feel the truth means more, when we use it to try and change ourselves, rather than when we use it to try and change other people.

Having been on this forum for ten years now, I have a profound respect for my Muslim brothers and sisters. They fear God, pray five times a day, observe fasts, dress modestly and they take families seriously.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric
Thank you for this, I agree and can already tell that Muslims are not afraid to think deeply about Allah and ask themselves honest questions in regards to him and his word.

God has given us life and expects us to use are minds and hearts to ponder about His word and truth, so that we may come to a stronger faith in Him by His grace.
Reply

Insaanah
01-11-2016, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
The notion of sin being some objective reality, a metaphysical condition a person can be in, is uniquely Christian. In Islam, it isn't. It's just a concept used to describe violation of God's commandments. It's not a state of being.
I've put this here for info, as I think it's very helpful.

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Originally Posted by TruthFollower
It seems as though Allah has created us in this universe only to test us.
Yes. As I have said, our life here is temporary, a test. The purpose of our existence, is that we should worship Allah alone, without any associates, parts, persons to the exclusive divinity that belongs only and solely and uniquely to Him. Allah created the world, and created us, not just to work, eat, sleep, have children and die into nothingness. Rather than leaving us fumbling in the dark as to what we should do, what we should believe about Him, how we should worship Him, how we should live, how we should avoid bad, from His mercy, He sent us prophets and messengers throughout the ages, to convey His message to us and to show us how to live and worship Him. These include, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the last and final messenger, Muhammad, peace be on them all. All of them conveyed the same core message, not different messages. The message was that we should submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

As part of our free will, once we hear that message, we have the choice to accept or reject. We have the choice to do good or bad, and as a result, to incur reward or sin. Sin is a consequence of deeds, same as reward is a consequence of deeds. After death, we will be resurrected on the day of judgement, and be brought to account for our deeds, and be judged. Our sin, our reward will be weighed up in the Divine scales of justice. Allah will be Just on that day. Those who may have escaped worldly justice, will not be able to escape and will face absolute justice. It is through His mercy that those who enter paradise will enter it.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Jesus' death would be pointless if it was not to save all from God's wrath against satan and evil, which caused sin in man. God has and is and will defeat satan and his followers. I'm sure you also hope and pray for the destruction of satan and evil and sin?
Had it happened, it would have been. Because if we repent sincerely, and ask for forgiveness, try our best not to repeat past mistakes, God can forgive us simply by His will. A perfect God doesn't pay a price.

Satan has been reprieved until the day of Judgement, and he will try and mislead men. This is part of the test. We have been warned against him. We ask God to help us do those deeds pleasing to Him, and to avoid sin, we ask him to help us to avoid those deeds that incur His anger, and we ask that if we have erred, that God forgive us, pardon us, overlook our faults, have mercy on us, and forgive our sins. We also seek refuge in Him against His anger and punishment.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
I said that Allah loves to forgive sin, but doesn't necessarily hate sin.
In one of the chapters of the Qur'an, just as one example, a number of evil deeds that incur great sin are mentioned. The next verse says, "The evil of all that is hateful in the sight of thy Lord." (17:38)

It is followed straight by another verse: "That is from what your Lord has revealed to you, [O Muhammad], of wisdom. And, [O mankind], do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity, lest you be thrown into Hell, blamed and banished. "(17:39)

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
I don't want to worship a god who doesn't hate sin. I hate sin because it's caused by evil, therefore it would make sense that the God I worship hated sin and evil
Good. This is good to hear. Perhaps you'd like to hear another strong passage on a particular sin:

They say: "The Most Merciful has begotten a son!"
You have done an atrocious thing.
The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits asunder and the mountains collapse in devastation
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (19:88-93)

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
However, because of God's mercy, he allows sin and evil in order to fulfill His plan of redemption. So the God I worship allows evil because it's leading to an everlasting good that He can clearly see because He's all knowing, but I cannot see because of my limited perspective, but eventually I will see.
You believe He allows it to fulfill redemption, we believe He allows it as part of the test, as stated above.

I don't want to rely on man for truth, I want to rely on God's truth. I'm sure you agree.
Absolutely. And It is not befitting God's majesty that the truth should be convoluted, complicated, illogical, difficult to understand and explain, doesn't make sense. If God tells us He is One, but we can't talk about One without mentioning the number Three, then clearly something is wrong. If all of mankind is eternally ****ed for something they didn't do at the beginning of the world, then something is clearly wrong. If God can't forgive, but has to beget a son and have him killed in a torturous death to forgive mankind, then clearly something is wrong.

Compare with:

God is one.
Has no son.
Is not 3-in-1.

He created us and sent His guidance to us via prophets and messengers, so that we should worship Him alone, without any associates in His divinity and obey the guidance of the messengers. In doing so, we try to do good and avoid evil, knowing we will be judged on judgement day. If we err, we ask for forgiveness. God can forgive just with His will. We also regularly seek protection and refuge with God from the evil of Satan.

I know which one resonates with the heart and mind as the clear truth from God, which befits His Glory and Majesty.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
I'm sorry, it is becoming more clear to me that Allah is not a God I want to worship
You already do worship Him. But you associate Jesus (peace be on him) and the holy spirit in the divinity that belongs solely to Allah.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
simply because He doesn't seem to hate sin caused by evil.
I've already answered this above.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
The God I worship, loves His creation, but hates evil which has tainted His creation with sin, therefore He has chosen to send His only begotten Son to die for all, that all who believe will be saved from their sin and ultimately saved from His righteous wrath against satan and sin.
When we do bad deeds and incur sin, and repent to God, asking sincerely for forgiveness, and trying our best not to repeat it, He can forgive us with just His will. No killing or bloodshed needs to take place.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
God will continue to try and reach you. You wouldn't be alive if God did not have a plan to save you. Those who reject Christ to their death will have to face God's wrath against them as sinners.
We do not reject Christ (peace be on him). Anyone that rejects Jesus (peace be on him) is immediately outside the fold of Islam. Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the noblest and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we go to the other extreme of deifying him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He'll return to earth near the end of time.

We call you to the same truth, that all the Prophets, including Jesus, peace be on him, practised and preached. The message didn't suddenly change when it came to Jesus (peace on him), nor did he rebel against God and claim divinity for himself. The Qur'an contains these verses, which foretell what Jesus (peace on him) will say when God, on the Day of Judgement, to illustrate to humankind, will ask Jesus whether he claimed divinity or said he should be worshipped:

"He [Jesus] will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (5:116-117)

Many Muslims who were formerly Christian, say it feels like they have returned home, and they feel closer to Jesus (peace on him) now than when they were Christian, as a quote from a former Christian member shows:

"Many of us here (myself included) said essentially the same words you are now saying, during our years following Paulism in the belief we were Christians. During our Christian years we loved and worshiped an idealistic man-made concept. After we came to Islam we learned to truly love Jesus (peace be on him) and not what we were told was Jesus (peace be on him). When I was Christian I thought I loved Jesus (peace be on him), but after coming to Islam I came to truly Love Jesus (peace be on him)."

We understand it is natural for you to want to defend what you have believed for so long, and what you currently believe to be the truth, but we hope and pray that you will ponder and reflect, and re-evaluate and reassess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines.

The wrath of God will be against those who associated others, such Jesus (peace be on him) in Gods exclusive divinity.

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is one of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. (5:73)

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

What is One God?

Let's take the number 1. That number can be manipulated, by multiplying, dividing, adding or subtracting.

This is what various groups of people have wrongly done over the years with their beliefs about God.

Some have multiplied the number, and believe in many gods.

Others have divided the number, and believe in many gods in one, such as the trinity (or 3 = 1 or 1 = 3)

Some have added, by worshipping God, but then also worshipping and praying to others such as Mary (peace be on her), or saints etc along with Him.

And others, such as atheists, have subtracted, by saying there is no God.

Regardless of this manipulation, the number 1 always remains the number 1 and does not itself change, and cannot itself never not be 1.

So what is the original and true belief without any change or manipulation?

1.

1slam.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
True believers of Jesus, hate sin because it's caused by evil and a true believer is viewed as a child of God, not a slave of God.
This illustrates what Allah says in the Quran: "But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." (5:18, part)

We believe that God is High Exalted above having any children. The proudest title of a Muslim, is slave of Allah, servitude to Allah implying liberation from all other servitudes. Every prophet loved to have this title, including Jesus (peace be on him):

"He ['Jesus] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" (19:30)

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Under Christ, we are commanded to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and love each other as ourselves.
We are also commanded to love God, but that love cannot be mere lip service while associating others in His divinity.

"And of mankind are some who take (for worship) others besides Allah as rivals (to Allah). They love them as they love Allah. But those who believe, love Allah more (than anything else). If only, those who do wrong could see, when they will see the torment, that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is Severe in punishment." (2:165)

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (3:31)

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Under Christ, the purpose of my life on this earth is to glorify God for who He is and what He's done. Why would God create anything other than to glorify Himself?
You are in this conundrum, where to glorify God, you have to glorify other than God. We face no such conundrum. Indeed the purpose of our existence is to worship Him and Him alone.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
I'm glad you're open to understanding what true Christians believe.
Understanding what they believe has helped me in conveying God's message more efficiently.

Peace.
Reply

ardianto
01-11-2016, 03:54 PM
Greeting and peace be with you, TruthFollower.

How does Allah forgive sins according to Islamic concept?. Okay, let we back to the math subjects in school. Remember plus points (1,2,3) and minus points (-1,-2,-3)?. In Islamic concept, if someone do act of worship or act of kindness, then he will get plus points. And if he commit sin, the he will get minus points.

When a baby born, he is in zero (0) position. Then after he reach puberty and his reward and sin start to be counted, he will start to get plus points and minus points. If he get reward (due to act of worship and kindness) more than he commit sins, he will be in "plus area". If he commit sins more than worship and do kindness, then he will be in "minus area". The area where he stay can changed anytime, depend on what he does. When he dies, if he is on plua area, he will go to heaven. If he is in minus area, he will go to hell.

But there is difference between concept of reward and sins, and math. Allah can forgive someone's sins if he repent, and make him in zero position again. Of course, if he still commit sins after he back to zero position, he will go to minus area again.

Simple, isn't it?. :)
Reply

TruthFollower
01-11-2016, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
I've put this here for info, as I think it's very helpful.

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Yes. As I have said, Our life here is temporary, a test. The purpose of our existence, is that we should worship Allah alone, without any associates, parts, persons to the exclusive divinity that belongs only and solely and uniquely to Him. Allah created the world, and created us, not just to work, eat, sleep, have children and die into nothingness. Then rather than leaving us fumbling in the dark as to what we should do, what we should believe about him how we should worship him, how we should live, how we should avoid bad, from His mercy, he sent us prophets and messengers throughout the ages, to convey His message to us and to show us how to live and worship him. These include, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the last and final messenger, Muhammad, peace be on them all. All of them conveyed the same core message, not different messages. The message was that we should submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

As part of our free will, once we hear that message, we have the choice to accept or reject. We have the choice to do good or bad, and as a result, to incur reward or sin. Sin is a consequence of deeds, same as reward is a consequence of deeds. After death, we will be resurrected on the day of judgement, and be brought to account for our deeds, and be judged. Our sin, our reward will be weighed up in the Divine scales of justice. Allah will be Just on that day. Those who may have escaped worldly justice, will not be able to escape and will face absolute justice. It is through His mercy that those who enter paradise will enter it.



Had it happened, it would have been. Because if we repent sincerely, and ask for forgiveness, try our best not to repeat past mistakes, God can forgive us simply by His will. A perfect God doesn't pay a price.

Satan has been reprieved until the day of Judgement, and he will try and mislead men. This is part of the test. We have been warned against him. We ask God to help us do those deeds pleasing to Him, and to avoid sin, we ask him to help us to avoid those deeds that incur His anger, and we ask that if we have erred, that God forgive us, pardon us, overlook our faults, have mercy on us, and forgive our sins. We also seek refuge in Him against His anger and punishment.



In one of the chapters of the Qur'an, just as one example, a number of evil deeds that incur great sin are mentioned. The next verse says, "The evil of all that is hateful in the sight of thy Lord." (17:38)

It is followed straight by another verse: "That is from what your Lord has revealed to you, [O Muhammad], of wisdom. And, [O mankind], do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity, lest you be thrown into Hell, blamed and banished. "(17:39)



Good. This is good to hear. Perhaps you'd like to hear another strong passage on a particular sin:

They say: "The Most Merciful has begotten a son!"
You have done an atrocious thing.
The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits asunder and the mountains collapse in devastation
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (19:88-93)



You believe He allows it to fulfill redemption, we believe He allows it as part of the test, as stated above.



Absolutely. And It is not befitting God's majesty that the truth should be convoluted, complicated, illogical, difficult to understand and explain, doesn't make sense. If God tells us He is One, but we can't talk about One without mentioning the number Three, then clearly something is wrong. If all of mankind is eternally ****ed for something they didn't do at the beginning of the world, then something is clearly wrong. If God can't forgive, but has to beget a son and have him killed in a torturous death to forgive mankind, then clearly something is wrong.

Compare with:

God is one.
Has no son.
Is not 3-in-1.

He created us and sent His guidance to us via prophets and messengers, so that we should worship Him alone, without any associates in His divinity and obey the guidance of the messengers. In doing so, we try to do good and avoid evil, knowing we will be judged on judgement day. If we err, we ask for forgiveness. God can forgive just with His will. We also regularly seek protection and refuge with God from the evil of Satan.

I know which one resonates with the heart and mind as the clear truth from God, which befits His Glory and Majesty.



You already do worship Him. But you associate Jesus (peace be on him) and the holy spirit in the divinity that belongs solely to Allah.



I've already answered this above.



When we do bad deeds and incur sin, and repent to God, asking sincerely for forgiveness, and trying our best not to repeat it, He can forgive us with just His will. No killing or bloodshed needs to take place.



We do not reject Christ (peace be on him). Anyone that rejects Jesus (peace be on him) is immediately outside the fold of Islam. Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the noblest and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we go to the other extreme of deifying him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He'll return to earth near the end of time.

We call you to the same truth, that all the Prophets, including Jesus, peace be on him, practised and preached. The message didn't suddenly change when it came to Jesus (peace on him), nor did he rebel against God and claim divinity for himself. The Qur'an contains these verses, which foretell what Jesus (peace on him) will say when God, on the Day of Judgement, to illustrate to humankind, will ask Jesus whether he claimed divinity or said he should be worshipped:

"He [Jesus] will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (5:116-117)

Many Muslims who were formerly Christian, say it feels like they have returned home, and they feel closer to Jesus (peace on him) now than when they were Christian, as a quote from a former Christian member shows:

"Many of us here (myself included) said essentially the same words you are now saying, during our years following Paulism in the belief we were Christians. During our Christian years we loved and worshiped an idealistic man-made concept. After we came to Islam we learned to truly love Jesus (peace be on him) and not what we were told was Jesus (peace be on him). When I was Christian I thought I loved Jesus (peace be on him), but after coming to Islam I came to truly Love Jesus (peace be on him)."

We understand it is natural for you to want to defend what you have believed for so long, and what you currently believe to be the truth, but we hope and pray that you will ponder and reflect, and re-evaluate and reassess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines.

The wrath of God will be against those who associated others, such Jesus (peace be on him) in Gods exclusive divinity.

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is one of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. (5:73)

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

What is One God?

Let's take the number 1. That number can be manipulated, by multiplying, dividing, adding or subtracting.

This is what various groups of people have wrongly done over the years with their beliefs about God.

Some have multiplied the number, and believe in many gods.

Others have divided the number, and believe in many gods in one, such as the trinity (or 3 = 1 or 1 = 3)

Some have added, by worshipping God, but then also worshipping and praying to others such as Mary (peace be on her), or saints etc along with Him.

And others, such as atheists, have subtracted, by saying there is no God.

Regardless of this manipulation, the number 1 always remains the number 1 and does not itself change, and cannot itself never not be 1.

So what is the original and true belief without any change or manipulation?

1.

1slam.



This illustrates what Allah says in the Quran: "But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." (5:18, part)

We believe that God is High Exalted above having any children. The proudest title of a Muslim, is slave of Allah, servitude to Allah implying liberation from all other servitudes. Every prophet loved to have this title, including Jesus (peace be on him):

"He ['Jesus] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" (19:30)



We are also commanded to love God, but that love cannot be mere lip service while associating others in His divinity.

"And of mankind are some who take (for worship) others besides Allah as rivals (to Allah). They love them as they love Allah. But those who believe, love Allah more (than anything else). If only, those who do wrong could see, when they will see the torment, that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is Severe in punishment." (2:165)

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (3:31)



You are in this conundrum, where to glorify God, you have to glorify other than God. We face no such conundrum. Indeed the purpose of our existence is to worship Him and Him alone.



Understanding what they believe has helped me in conveying God's message more efficiently.

Peace.

Thank you for your explanations. Do you regard the words of Muhammad as equal to the words of Allah? Or are the words of Allah distinguishable from the words of Muhammad? If they are indistinguishable, wouldn't this mean Muhammad is Allah? I say this because a lot of the quotes from the Qur'an that say things against Jews and Christians are coming from Muhammad himself not Allah Himself.

I find this interesting because in the Bible the words of Jesus Himself are regarded as the words of God Himself, but we can't apply this to the Qur'an, therefore the words of Muhammad himself should not be regarded as the words of Allah Himself. Does this mean we shouldn't regard Muhammad's words as equal to Allah's words? If they are equal then does this mean Muhammad is equal to Allah as far as authority over Allah's word?
Reply

Insaanah
01-11-2016, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
are the words of Allah distinguishable from the words of Muhammad?
The Qur'an is 100% the word of Allah. Not one word from any human. The Prophet's practice and directives, that contain his words (the Sunnah), as taught to him by God, have also been recorded and preserved separately, in records called hadeeth, and must be followed along with the Qur'an. We follow the Qur'an and the prophet's sunnah, as taught to him by God.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
I say this because a lot of the quotes from the Qur'an that say things against Jews and Christians are coming from Muhammad himself not Allah Himself.
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. All of the Qur'an is Allah's words. If you mean where it says e.g. "Say, [O Muhammad]... ", that is Allah speaking, telling Muhammad (peace be on him), to say whatever follows in the verse, to people. Even that word "Say" has been preserved.

(Late addition to post: The words in square brackets in the translation eg [O Muhammad] do not appear in the original Arabic text. We know from the grammar of the word "Say" in Arabic that the word is referring to the Prophet (peace and blessing be on him) so the translators add it in brackets, to clarify).

Here's an example where people asked the prophet (peace and blessings be on him) concerning to whom it would be good for them to spend on, so a verse was revealed to the Prophet (peace and blessings be on him) by God, about it:

They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is [to be] for parents and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it." (2:215)

So Allah is saying, "The people are asking you about this. Say to them...."

We recite it fully preserved, exactly like that.

Here's another:

Say [O Muhammad], "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take others as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." (3:64)

This is also a command from Allah to the Prophet (peace be on him) to say to the people what follows in the verse above.

Here's another, where Allah tells the Prophet (peace be on him) to say something to people:

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:158)

Does that clarify it?

The Qur'an was written as it was revealed, and was orally memorised too. We believe that Jesus (peace be on him) was given a scripture by Allah called the Injeel, and we believe in that scripture as being from God, as part of our articles of faith. However the current day Bible, was mostly written decades after Jesus (peace be on him), some parts by unknown authors, and some by people that never met Jesus, such as Paul. It might be that parts of the Injeel are present in it, God knows best.

We know that those parts that disagree with the Qur'an definitely aren't from the injeel, because the Qur'an is the criterion over the superceded scriptures. Those parts that agree, may be, may not be, we don't know for sure if any of it remains, suffice to say we believe that God gave Jesus (peace be on him) a scripture called the Injeel, and even if we never saw it, we believe in it wholeheartedly, as part of our belief in the unseen.

The Qur'an is the last and final scripture of God, the very words revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel. It's message is for the entire world, until the world ends. It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, intact. Thus it is fully preserved with no word in it coming from any human. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans - thus it supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form. The Final Testament, you could call it.

It has no versions or editions. Millions of people from all over the world have it memorised and they all recite word for word the same thing. It contains the central message as already described, and practical guidance on how to live, stories of previous prophets from which to learn lessons, warnings, rules, comfort, solace, good tidings, and in it God corrects misconceptions people may have about Him or His prophets. It tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what He told His prophets to teach people since the beginning. That message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original and only message.

The Qur'an has been translated into nearly every language. These are regarded as translations of the Qur'an, but not as the Qur'an itself, which is in Arabic, and has rhythm and poetic beauty. Any preconceived notion that you might have of a book should be put aside. This book is completely unique in every way; its content, arrangement, style, authorship, preservation, and memorisability, amongst other things.

Hopefully this addresses your last paragraph too, but let me know if it doesn't.

Peace.
Reply

TruthFollower
01-11-2016, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
The Qur'an is 100% the word of Allah. Not one word from any human. The Prophet's practice and directives, that contain his words (the Sunnah), as taught to him by God, have also been recorded and preserved separately, in records called hadeeth, and must be followed along with the Qur'an. We follow the Qur'an and the prophet's sunnah, as taught to him by God.



I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. All of the Qur'an is Allah's words. If you mean where it says e.g. "Say, [O Muhammad]... ", that is Allah speaking, telling Muhammad (peace be on him), to say whatever follows in the verse, to people. Even that word "Say" has been preserved.

Here's an example where people asked the prophet (peace and blessings be on him) concerning to whom it would be good for them to spend on, so a verse was revealed to the Prophet (peace and blessings be on him) by God, about it:

They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is [to be] for parents and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it." (2:215)

So Allah is saying, "The people are asking you about this. Say to them...."

We recite it fully preserved, exactly like that.

Here's another:

Say [O Muhammad], "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take others as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." (3:64)

This is also a command from Allah to the Prophet (peace be on him) to say to the people what follows in the verse above.

Here's another, where Allah tells the Prophet (peace be on him) to say something to people:

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:158)

Does that clarify it?

The Qur'an was written as it was revealed, and was orally memorised too. We believe that Jesus (peace be on him) was given a scripture by Allah called the Injeel, and we believe in that scripture as being from God, as part of our articles of faith. However the current day Bible, was mostly written decades after Jesus (peace be on him), some parts by unknown authors, and some by people that never met Jesus, such as Paul. It might be that parts of the Injeel are present in it, God knows best.

We know that those parts that disagree with the Qur'an definitely aren't from the injeel, because the Qur'an is the criterion over the superceded scriptures. Those parts that agree, may be, may not be, we don't know for sure if any of it remains, suffice to say we believe that God gave Jesus (peace be on him) a scripture called the Injeel, and even if we never saw it, we believe in it wholeheartedly, as part of our belief in the unseen.

The Qur'an is the last and final scripture of God, the very words revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel. It's message is for the entire world, until the world ends. It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, intact. Thus it is fully preserved with no word in it coming from any human. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans - thus it supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form. The Final Testament, you could call it.

It has no versions or editions. Millions of people from all over the world have it memorised and they all recite word for word the same thing. It contains the central message as already described, and practical guidance on how to live, stories of previous prophets from which to learn lessons, warnings, rules, comfort, solace, good tidings, and in it God corrects misconceptions people may have about Him or His prophets. It tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what He told His prophets to teach people since the beginning. That message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original and only message.

The Qur'an has been translated into nearly every language. These are regarded as translations of the Qur'an, but not as the Qur'an itself, which is in Arabic, and has rhythm and poetic beauty. Any preconceived notion that you might have of a book should be put aside. This book is completely unique in every way; its content, arrangement, style, authorship, preservation, and memorisability, amongst other things.

Hopefully this addresses your last paragraph too, but let me know if it doesn't.

Peace.
Thank you for your explanations, they are helpful, but I still can't get over the issue of sin never being eternally forgiven, only temporarily forgiven by the will of Allah. It seems Allah is continually forgiving sin("the forgiving"), forever(Ever-forgiving) and not the eternal forgiver of sin(doing away with sin in man, completely, no longer needing to forgive because sin is gone). The Bible teaches of eternal life where there will be no more sin or evil, therefore, no more need for God to be forgiving people. God can rest from His work of creating a perfect heaven and earth and His creation can rest in Him.

Also, its interesting that Allah speaks in the first person plural, he refers to himself as "We" in many verses in the Qur'an. I've read several explanation for this and none are sufficient to make me think that "We" could not be referring to a 3 persons in 1 being of God. Only when he speaks through prophets(men) does it say Allah is one and should not be considered as 3 persons in one, even though "We" clearly suggests the possibility and that even came from Allah Himself.

I appreciate your time and will continue to study further in the hopes of finding better understanding of the truth of God.

God bless!
Reply

Insaanah
01-11-2016, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Thank you for your explanations, they are helpful, but I still can't get over the issue of sin never being eternally forgiven, only temporarily forgiven by the will of Allah. It seems Allah is continually forgiving sin("the forgiving"), forever(Ever-forgiving) and not the eternal forgiver of sin(doing away with sin in man, completely, no longer needing to forgive because sin is gone). The Bible teaches of eternal life where there will be no more sin or evil, therefore, no more need for God to be forgiving people. God can rest from His work of creating a perfect heaven and earth and His creation can rest in Him.
We don't believe God rests, because again, a God that needs to rest is not perfect. Needing to rest is a human limitation.

As I already mentioned a few times already, we do deeds (which incur sin or reward) until we die. On the day of judgement, we are judged on those deeds we did in this world. On the day of judgement, we don't do deeds (therefore don't incur more sin or reward). Still Allah will be merciful on that day. After judgement day, there is no more opportunity for sin, as Satan and his followers will be in hell. His reprieve was only til the day of judgement. People go to hell for punishment for the sin they incurred in this world, or heaven as their reward, through God's mercy. In paradise, there is no sin. Only good things, enjoyment, pleasure, delights the like of which no person can imagine. Forever. There you reap the reward of the good you did in this world. There is no sin there, no bad there.

There is no such thing as temporary forgiveness. Forgiveness is forgiveness, period. The people that enter paradise will do so, having been already forgiven. In paradise there will be no sin, so it seems nothing to forgive. Yet, Allah exhibits each of His Glorious Attributes, in a manner befitting His Majesty, as and how He sees fit.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Also, its interesting that Allah speaks in the first person plural, he refers to himself as "We" in many verses in the Qur'an. I've read several explanation for this and none are sufficient to make me think that "We" could not be referring to a 3 persons in 1 being of God. Only when he speaks through prophets(men) does it say Allah is one and should not be considered as 3 persons in one, even though "We" clearly suggests the possibility and that even came from Allah Himself.
So, what do you think of the numerous verses Allah refers to Himself, as I, Me, My, just three of which are below?

Indeed, I am Allah . There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance. (20:14)

And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. (51:56)

... And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve. (2:38 part)

In some verses Allah refers to Himself using the Majestic Royal "We", and sometimes as I, depending on the context of the verse, in His wisdom.

Eg The Queen, in some royal documents will refer to, "Our reign". Yet other times she will say, "One was heartened to hear..."

Only when he speaks through prophets(men) does it say Allah is one and should not be considered as 3 persons in one, even though "We" clearly suggests the possibility and that even came from Allah Himself.
The Qur'an is crystal clear as to it's core theme and message, repeated again and again throughout the book in different ways and styles. If somebody reads the Qur'an that knows absolutely nothing about Islam, they will come away with the message that God is One, without any associate in His Divinity, and that only He must be worshipped. Even if they don't agree with that, they will come away knowing clearly that that is the core of the faith.

Only when he speaks through prophets(men) does it say Allah is one and should not be considered as 3 persons in one, even though "We" clearly suggests the possibility and that even came from Allah Himself.
This is Allah speaking directly to you, not through any prophet. There is no "Say to the people" here. Nor the royal We. This is directly, from your Lord to you, about the trinity:

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah , nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together. (4:171-172)

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is one of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.
So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (5:73-74)

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
I appreciate your time and will continue to study further in the hopes of finding better understanding of the truth of God.
I wish you well, and hope you will study with an open heart and mind. If you have further questions feel free to post here, and we will do our best to help. May Allah guide you to the truth, ameen.

Peace.
Reply

najimuddin
01-11-2016, 09:04 PM
Greetings again TruthFollower,

Thanks for your candid replies to my posts. I believe this a fruitful discussion. I’m sure you do as well.

In your last reply to me you asked:
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Why would God be obligated to love someone who has rejected Him to their death?
It is because you mentioned the following without qualification:
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
In order to forgive His creation of it's sins and destroy evil, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus who lived a perfect life and willingly went to the cross and died for all man's sins.
and
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
...by His Holy Spirit He begot a Son and sacrificed Him for all humanity's sin.
and
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Jesus' death would be pointless if it was not to save all from God's wrath against satan and evil, which caused sin in man.
.
From our interaction as noted in this thread, these statements relating to dying for all, saving all, and sacrificed for all humanity's sin are not true. There is at least one exception.


Reply

M.I.A.
01-16-2016, 07:34 PM
Ok there's an almost relevant link for OP to spend a few minutes on..

https://youtu.be/iHFgcRGIrH0


32 minutes :|
Reply

aamuslim
01-17-2016, 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by TruthFollower
...In order to forgive His creation of it's sins and destroy evil, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus who lived a perfect life and willingly went to the cross and died for all man's sins. Jesus also being God did this by the power of God, not of man. In going to the cross and willingly laying down his life for all, God was able to destroy evil and sin...

Thank you for this, but does Allah have a way to destroy sin and evil forever? He can grant forgiveness forever, but man will continue to sin against him, unless he has a way to destroy sin and evil and restore his creation to perfection. It seems under Allah, man will just forever continue to sin and ask for forgiveness, there is never a real solution that destroys sin and evil forever. It seems a perfect God would be able to destroy sin forever so that we never have to ask for forgiveness again because we are made perfect by God.
Originally Posted by greenhill
Thank you.

Still, I don't get it. Why do we still have to die if death is destroyed? Death is still around, as it has been, uninterrupted, today and until Doomsday.

As is sin. That is still around today. Neither destroyed but still at large.

So what is it you are saying?

:peace:
TruthFollower, you have not responded to the above post. But I think you know the reality, sin and evil, and death are part of life and will remain forever on this earth. Only in the next life, there will be NO sin, evil, or death.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
Jesus is the new Adam, a perfect sinless Adam who lived and died for all people by the power of God's love, mercy, forgiveness and righteous judgment.
We believe that Adam was created without a mother and a father, and we also believe that any person that enters the world is sinless. However according to Christianity, any person who comes out of the womb of their mother is born with sin. Accordingly, Mary the mother of Jesus according to Christianity would be born with sin, and similarly when Mary gave birth to Jesus, Jesus would also be born with sin. For Jesus to be the new Adam, God would have to create Jesus just like Adam, without a mother and a father, and without coming out of the womb of a mother. Islamically, we believe that both Mary and Jesus when they were born were sinless, and that goes for anyone born on earth, everyone is born sinless.

The truth is, Jesus Christ is the son of Mary, who called people towards worshiping God alone, without any partners. This was the single most important commandment taught by all those sent as Messengers by God.

You need to research how did the "Original Sin" doctrine and the concept of "Trinity" came about. Did Abraham, Noah, Moses and the rest of the Prophets and Messengers sent by God taught these concepts to their followers? IF we suppose they were all along, then the followers of Moses (the Jews) and followers of other Messengers would have these similar beliefs. But the Jews for example, who believe in Moses and the Old Testament do not hold such beliefs (they do not believe in Original Sin nor Trinity). The original followers of Jesus (Jewish Christian) did not had such beliefs, these beliefs originated and became revised and then official in Christianity many years after Jesus had long gone from his followers.
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