The Quran as God's Word - created or uncreated?

[Restless]

Salaam,

As far as I understand it, the Sunni (Azhari) position on the Quran is that it is the uncreated Word of God, and not part of Creation as such. The Shia and Mutazilite positions on the other hand state that the Quran is created, and that the claim of the Quran being uncreated amounts to shirk.

I have read some previous discussions on this issue over the Internet, but there is one argument that I have not seen being taken into account. The Quran speaks of Jesus as the Word of God (4:171), and in the very same verse it admonishes the people from associating Jesus with God. So, if Jesus was the Word of God, and the Quran likewise is the Word of God, then the Quran should be considered, like Jesus, as separate from God and not part of Him. What say you about this?

[Saleem Khan]

Is the Quraan creation or not?

This has been a very long debate among different scholars of Islam. Khalifas got involved and some scholars were lashed and imprisoned due to their opinions.
The following is the view of the Ahlus sunnah.
The Qura'an as the kalaam of Allah is one of the qualities of Allah Ta'ala and therefore cannot be a creation as the mu'tazila say. It is Qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) just how Allah himself is Qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) .

However the discussion now arises if I utter the Quraan is this also Qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) ?
It is not, because my utterance of anything is definitely Haadith (originated/with beginning). Similarly the quraan printed in the mushafs is also haadith (originated/with beginning) . As imam bukhari said,
لفظي بالقرآن محدث
"My utterance of the Quraan is Haadith"
Therefore what he is saying that the quraan in essence is qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) however when I utter it, it is haadith (originated/with beginning).

The Ulema of Aqeeda explain this view in the following way, there are two types of speeches attributed to Allah

1. Kalaam Nafsi

2. Kalaam Lafzi

The actual Quraan is in the form of Kalaam Nafsi which is the sifat of Allah and is therefore Qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated). We do not know what is the actual form of this kalaam, except that it is not in the form of words and voices.

2. Kalaam lafzi: is that speech that is in the form of huroof and aswaat (words and voice) therefore it cannot be qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) because huroof and aswaat are a creation of Allah. This speech is not part of the Dhaat (essence) of Allah Ta'ala because a Haadith (originated/with beginning) cannot be part of Allah because if he is changing he is not kaamil.
Therefore the Quraan we have in front of us is in actual fact referring to the Qadeem Kalaam Nafsi. An easy way to understand this is that if I write the word Allah on a piece of paper is that word qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) or haadith (originated/with beginning)? It is haadith, however, what it is referring to (dhaat of Allah) is qadeem. Similarly the quraan is qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) however the quraan that is written or spoken is Haadith (originated/with beginning) but is referring to the qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) sifah of Allah Ta'ala.

[Saleem Khan]

I tried to simplify it as possible its an intricate topic.

If part isn't clear let me know.

[OmAbdullah]

Salaam,

As far as I understand it, the Sunni (Azhari) position on the Quran is that it is the uncreated Word of God, and not part of Creation as such. The Shia and Mutazilite positions on the other hand state that the Quran is created, and that the claim of the Quran being uncreated amounts to shirk.





I have read some previous discussions on this issue over the Internet, but there is one argument that I have not seen being taken into account. The Quran speaks of Jesus as the Word of God (4:171), and in the very same verse it admonishes the people from associating Jesus with God. So, if Jesus was the Word of God, and the Quran likewise is the Word of God, then the Quran should be considered, like Jesus, as separate from God and not part of Him. What say you about this?

Salaam


This point is a very useless topic which doesn't make any sense. If a person speaks and gives some statement which may be in spoken or written form, we never say, is this statement a part of that person, or is this statement originated, etc. Then why should someone raise such question about the Kalaam of Allah to make long discussions, to cause confusion and mere confusion?


"Quraan is the kalaam of Allah i.e. the statement of Allah sent down for the guidance of mankind".


Is there anything difficulty in understanding this quoted underlined sentence???

No!!! I believe every normal mind can understand this sentence very well. Therefore, those who create confusion are not normal!!!


The saying that Jesus is the word of Allah doesn't mean that he is the statement of Allah. There is no reason to take that meaning. Again it is very simple to understand. Allah says again and again that to do anything Allah only says "kun" i.e. "Be", "fayakoon" so it happens. Read the translation of the following verse of surah Yaseen:


82. Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!" and it is!

Similarly, the creation of Eisa (Jesus ) alaihi salaam in the miraculous way was not difficult for Allah as Allah had to give only a command saying "Be" and then it happened.


Is there any difficulty in understanding the above statement? I don't understand why do people try to create confusion and disturb people with normal minds and understanding? Surely it is only due to the mischief of Satan and Satan is an open enemy to mankind!!!

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[Restless]

nbegam,

Please bear with me, I am not trying to create confusion but rid myself of my own confusion. I am merely a seeker without religious affiliation trying to understand Islam on my own terms.

Saleem Khan,

It is clear, thank you. Let me rephrase my first question though: What do Muslims mean when they say that Jesus is the Word of God? I mean, in Christianity (where I have my background) it is very clear: Jesus is the uncreated Logos (Word), he is a revelation unto himself. From my perspective then, if the Quran is the Word-made-book, then Jesus is the Word-made-flesh, which in a way puts the two on par with each other. I understand that this is NOT the position of Muslims - but what then does it mean that Jesus is the Word of God, just like the Quran, but still the Quran is uncreated whereas Jesus is created?

[OmAbdullah]

Is the Quraan creation or not?

This has been a very long debate among different scholars of Islam. Khalifas got involved and some scholars were lashed and imprisoned due to their opinions.
The following is the view of the Ahlus sunnah.
The Qura'an as the kalaam of Allah is one of the qualities of Allah Ta'ala and therefore cannot be a creation as the mu'tazila say. It is Qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) just how Allah himself is Qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) .

However the discussion now arises if I utter the Quraan is this also Qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) ?
It is not, because my utterance of anything is definitely Haadith (originated/with beginning). Similarly the quraan printed in the mushafs is also haadith (originated/with beginning) . As imam bukhari said,
لفظي بالقرآن محدث
"My utterance of the Quraan is Haadith"
Therefore what he is saying that the quraan in essence is qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) however when I utter it, it is haadith (originated/with beginning).

The Ulema of Aqeeda explain this view in the following way, there are two types of speeches attributed to Allah

1. Kalaam Nafsi

2. Kalaam Lafzi

The actual Quraan is in the form of Kalaam Nafsi which is the sifat of Allah and is therefore Qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated). We do not know what is the actual form of this kalaam, except that it is not in the form of words and voices.

2. Kalaam lafzi: is that speech that is in the form of huroof and aswaat (words and voice) therefore it cannot be qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) because huroof and aswaat are a creation of Allah. This speech is not part of the Dhaat (essence) of Allah Ta'ala because a Haadith (originated/with beginning) cannot be part of Allah because if he is changing he is not kaamil.
Therefore the Quraan we have in front of us is in actual fact referring to the Qadeem Kalaam Nafsi. An easy way to understand this is that if I write the word Allah on a piece of paper is that word qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) or haadith (originated/with beginning)? It is haadith, however, what it is referring to (dhaat of Allah) is qadeem. Similarly the quraan is qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) however the quraan that is written or spoken is Haadith (originated/with beginning) but is referring to the qadeem (beginningless/unoriginated) sifah of Allah Ta'ala.

Please keep away from such statements because it is baseless and opens many doors for satan to make confusion.
Although my post #4 has the clear answer to the question about Jesus, -------