Atheists Are A Proof of God

[BilalKid]

:shade:

:peace:

[goodwill]

Makes me think of G. K. Chesterton's remark: “If there were not God, there would be no atheists.”

[BilalKid]

Makes me think of G. K. Chesterton's remark: “If there were not God, there would be no atheists.”

true!! :shade:

gr8 quote

[czgibson]

Greetings,

If atheists are a proof that God exists, then people who don't believe in unicorns are proof that unicorns exist, people who don't believe in fairies are proof that fairies exist, and people who don't believe in Thor, Zeus and Odin are proof that they all exist too. This kind of thinking is so obviously nonsensical that it hardly deserves a response.

What is really beyond the pale, though, is the association of a thinker like Wittgenstein with this rubbish. His name has been inserted at the beginning of the video, perhaps to convince people who don't know any better that the speaker has some kind of intellectual credibility. Wittgenstein certainly spoke up until his final day of life; he was visited by four of his former students who answered his request that they pray for him. The speaker in the video has probably half-remembered Wittgenstein's famous quote from the end of the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus: "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." It's advice that the speaker himself would do well to follow.

Peace

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[Pygoscelis]

I agree with the video that a big part of the problem is failures of communication. And I hold it up as evidence against an all powerful God that wants to be known and understood by all. Such a God would not need to resort to the imperfections of human language in text or by prophet. Such a God could merely make us know him. That there are multiple religions, multiple understandings within each religion, and that people fight over that, shows me that any God that exists is either not all powerful or does not intend to be perfectly understood by all.

[Serinity]

If atheists are a proof that God exists, then people who don't believe in unicorns are proof that unicorns exist, people who don't believe in fairies are proof that fairies exist, and people who . on't believe in Thor, Zeus and Odin are proof that they all exist too. This kind of thinking is so obviously nonsensical that it hardly deserves a response.

No, that is not true. Although I do get why you think so.

But it is fallacious. you take a thing contingent on the imagination of mankind and take it as evidence to 'disprove' this.. it is like saying "if people denying the sun exists, is proof of the sun existing, it is like saying that the fact that people rejecting the existence of fairies, or unicorns (or whatever from the imagination of mankind) is proof that they exist"

I ask you: What is YOUR definition of God?

I'm convinced that god exists because of the creation, and besides the logical arguments, how it was created, convinces me even more that it is God that created it. Someone intelligent

[czgibson]

Greetings,

No, that is not true. Although I do get why you think so.

But it is fallacious. you take a thing contingent on the imagination of mankind and take it as evidence to 'disprove' this.. it is like saying "if people denying the sun exists, is proof of the sun existing, it is like saying that the fact that people rejecting the existence of fairies, or unicorns (or whatever from the imagination of mankind) is proof that they exist"

This is very unclear. Would you like to have another go at explaining it? Remember that, from my point of view, all of the entities I mentioned are imaginary.

I ask you: What is YOUR definition of God?

When I talk about God, I use the same definition as you'll find in a dictionary:

God
ɡɒd/
noun

(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

I'm convinced that god exists because of the creation, and besides the logical arguments, how it was created, convinces me even more that it is God that created it. Someone intelligent

Are there some words missing here?

Peace

[ardianto]

But it is fallacious. you take a thing contingent on the imagination of mankind and take it as evidence to 'disprove' this.. it is like saying "if people denying the sun exists, is proof of the sun existing, it is like saying that the fact that people rejecting the existence of fairies, or unicorns (or whatever from the imagination of mankind) is proof that they exist"

I believe in God. But, the atheists disbelief in God, indeed, cannot be a proof that God does exist. Czgibson has shown good point for it, through analogy of people who don't believe that unicorn does exist.

No, no, I do not defend atheist. But, it's better if we try to understand their way of thinking. So we can communicate with them better.

[Serinity]

I believe in God. But, the atheists disbelief in God, indeed, cannot be a proof that God does exist. Czgibson has shown good point for it, through analogy of people who don't believe that unicorn does exist.

No, no, I do not defend atheist. But, it's better if we try to understand their way of thinking. So we can communicate with them better.

I know, but it is fallacious. I get the point, but the analogy is fallacious, if you reverse it. They confuse fantasy with reality, mix reality with fantasies, confusing themselves further.

They don't realise, whatever comes from us, of imaginations and fansies, is false. And even if they did, they confuse reality with imagination, mixing reasonable conculsions with imaginations and fantasiies. then coming up with assumptions out of fantasies. Unicorns don't exist cause they arose from the imagination of mankind. A cat with wings and a beautiful sword, they don't exist! why? They are formed from the premise of fantasies and imagination.

Though, I do see that there won't be any fruitful talks with the mindset presented in the video.

[Pygoscelis]

You can't prove Unicorns exist by pointing at people who don't believe in unicorns, you can't prove the moon exists by pointing at people who don't believe in the moon, and you can't prove God exists by pointing at people that don't believe in God. The object being referred to actually existing or not doesn't matter insofar as the validity of the argument goes. It could exist or it could not, but you can't prove it exists by pointing at people who disbelieve.

[M.I.A.]

Well, maybe they did at some point.. Although the fossel record may prove otherwise.

...never mind we still have the Narwhale.


Anyway Allah swt is free of association..

[ardianto]

They don't realise, whatever comes from us, of imaginations and fansies, is false. And even if they did, they confuse reality with imagination, mixing reasonable conculsions with imaginations and fantasiies.

This is what atheists say about religious people. They regard the religious people belief in God is just a fantasy that come from human mind, which religious people mix imagination and reality through believing that nature is sign of God existence.

Brother, everyone is not same. So you cannot use your point of view if you want to understand other people point of view. But you must out of the box and stand on the neutral side.

:)

[Serinity]

You can't prove Unicorns exist by pointing at people who don't believe in unicorns, you can't prove the moon exists by pointing at people who don't believe in the moon, and you can't prove God exists by pointing at people that don't believe in God. The object being referred to actually existing or not doesn't matter insofar as the validity of the argument goes. It could exist or it could not, but you can't prove it exists by pointing at people who disbelieve.

In other words, the existence of something is not contingent on whether people believe in it or not? I mean a floating rock, afaik, doesn't exist, whether people believe that or not, doesn't matter.

[Serinity]

This is what atheists say about religious people. They regard the religious people belief in God is just a fantasy that come from human mind, which religious people mix imagination and reality through believing that nature is sign of God existence.

Brother, everyone is not same. So you cannot use your point of view if you want to understand other people point of view. But you must out of the box and stand on the neutral side.

:)

I get it, and I get why they are confused. But I can't remember what it was called lol.

[Serinity]

What is really beyond the pale, though, is the association of a thinker like Wittgenstein with this rubbish. His name has been inserted at the beginning of the video, perhaps to convince people who don't know any better that the speaker has some kind of intellectual credibility. Wittgenstein certainly spoke up until his final day of life; he was visited by four of his former students who answered his request that they pray for him. The speaker in the video has probably half-remembered Wittgenstein's famous quote from the end of the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus: "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." It's advice that the speaker himself would do well to follow.

I disagree with Wittgenstein's quote. Being silent about something where you're gambling your eternity, is unwise. Just as being silent about a problem in society, tension will build.

[ardianto]

You can't prove Unicorns exist by pointing at people who don't believe in unicorns, you can't prove the moon exists by pointing at people who don't believe in the moon, and you can't prove God exists by pointing at people that don't believe in God. The object being referred to actually existing or not doesn't matter insofar as the validity of the argument goes. It could exist or it could not, but you can't prove it exists by pointing at people who disbelieve.

If you are sure that unicorn doesn't exist, you would say "Ah, unicorn is just a myth!". However, if you began to feel a doubt in your heart, "Unicorn probably exist". Then you would start a journey to search for unicorn.

:)

[Serinity]

If you are sure that unicorn doesn't exist, you would say "Ah, unicorn is just a myth!". However, if you began to feel a doubt in your heart, "Unicorn probably exist". Then you would start a journey to search for unicorn.

:)

None would doubt that unicorns don't exist, why? Cause they were born from the imagination of mankind/started there, by the will of Allah, created, decreedd etc. Qadr, ya know.

As for God existing, God is whom is referred to as having created this whole universe. So to say God arose from imagination, is fallacious, and unintelligent. Why? Cause God is the one who is referred to as the creator. Whether one believes in God or not, is not contingent on God's existence, because it is not imaginary.

It is like saying oxygen is imaginary, yes, we can't see oxygen but we have evidence proof for its existence.

We don't know how God looks like, etc.

I mean, I believe in Allah, first because of the evidence in creation, that this could only come from Allah, and then there is the Quran, which is the greatest proof. Which commands you to think.

Anyways, yeh...... I understand why atheists are confused, but it is fallacious.

[ardianto]

None would doubt that unicorns don't exist, why? Cause they were born from the imagination of mankind/started there, by the will ......

Oh no, you don't realize the hidden message behind my words.

I was not literally talking about unicorn. That's just analogy to describe the searching for God. If someone sure that God does not exist, he indeed would never try to find God. But if he began to feel doubt in his heart, and began to wonder "Does God exist?", then he would try to search for God.

[Serinity]

Oh no, you don't realize the hidden message behind my words.

I was not literally talking about unicorn. That's just analogy to describe the searching for God. If someone sure that God does not exist, he indeed would never try to find God. But if he began to feel doubt in his heart, and began to wonder "Does God exist?", then he would try to search for God.

Well, there is proof of God's existence everywhere around us, there is proof of deliberate, intelligent design, that could only be from God.

If the Earth was a bit away from the sun, it'd be too cold, a little closer, too hot. If it wasn't for the angular position of earth, there would be no seasons, there'd be instability. If it wasn't for the moon, there wouldn't be tides in the water.

An unconscious thing could create this? I Think not.

[Pygoscelis]

In other words, the existence of something is not contingent on whether people believe in it or not? I mean a floating rock, afaik, doesn't exist, whether people believe that or not, doesn't matter.

Correct. And that is all czgibson was saying. Atheists, people who do not believe in God, are not evidence that God exists, anymore than you, a person that doesn't believe in floating rocks, are evidence that floating rocks exist.

Well, there is proof of God's existence everywhere around us, there is proof of deliberate, intelligent design, that could only be from God.

I respectfully disagree, and you have read why in the previous thread. :)

If the Earth was a bit away from the sun, it'd be too cold, a little closer, too hot. If it wasn't for the angular position of earth, there would be no seasons, there'd be instability. If it wasn't for the moon, there wouldn't be tides in the water.

True, and life on earth, if there was any, would look completely different then. Perhaps there would be no life on earth, but life on another planet that had suitable conditions for it. Maybe there is such life on other planets. The universe is a very big place, and such could be out there without us ever finding it or knowing it is there.

[M.I.A.]

..captain obvious walks into the bar..

Bar: ow.

...God is not a floating rock.. The analogy is flawed..

...you give humans more credit than you give God.. Passports plz.. All aboard the floating rock..

Makes a change from sea sickness.

Anyway, technically we are all on a floating rock..

Is that what you get a were getting at?


Was it an "in" joke?

But seriously how can rocks float? They are rocks!

...I know it's not floating but rather falling with nowhere to land..

But for all intents and purposes..

God made a floating rock.

[Serinity]

True, and life on earth, if there was any, would look completely different then. Perhaps there would be no life on earth, but life on another planet that had suitable conditions for it. Maybe there is such life on other planets. The universe is a very big place, and such could be out there without us ever finding it or knowing it is there.

Yes, I know there might be other life forms, but because of lack of evidence, it is all conjecture.

But point is, how come this one planet out of the other 8 planets in the solar system is habitable? Yes, I know, that if Allah willed, He SWT could create creatures that'd be able to adapt the climate.

But the fact is, that every life form is dependent on water. But look at the setup, the moon and the sun rotate in orbit, in perfect reckoning.

Correct. And that is all czgibson was saying. Atheists, people who do not believe in God, are not evidence that God exists, anymore than you, a person that doesn't believe in floating rocks, are evidence that floating rocks exist.

But you see, the form/structure of the sentence, "If someone disbelieves in X, therefore X exists" "if someone believes in X, therefore X exists"

Is not convincing proof, to an atheist, or to a theist. But one has to distinguish between imagination/fantasies and reality.

It'd be nonsensical to say "saying that people disbelieve in the existence of the Sun, is proof the sun exists, is like saying disbelieving in unicorns, or imaginary floating rocks, is proof that it exists"

One equates, unintentionally, imagination with reality. I feel your perception of God, is wrong. you mix your imagination with reality,.

you see me as delusional, I see you as delusional. I am not speaking against the "structure" of the sentence, but the argument. Saying "if people disbelieving in the sun's existence is proof that the Sun exists, then those who disbelieve in imaginary fairies, is proof that they exist"

ie you are doing this:

equating imagination with reality.

I've seen you, repeatedly mixing your own imagination, with reality/logic. Trying to ridicule those who believe in God, rather you are confusing yourself by mixing imagination and reality/logic.... To make it clear to you, it is like the example of one saying "ha, those people believe the earth exists! it might as well be fairies!"

What I am saying is, we believe in God, by the evidence percieved/provided around us. Not out of our own imagination, as many atheists claim.

I don't wanna debate tho.. May Allah SWT guide us all. Ameen.

[M.I.A.]

What's strange is that everything you see is biological, chemical.. Bound by the constraints of physics..

But look close enough and its atoms! Charged particles.. With masses of empty space..

Orbits and spin and charges and interaction.. Not like the universe or anything.

...seriously, literally scratching the surface of what could be..

Not even swapping "unicorn" for angel's.. Who apparently are made of light..

Because we are probably a long way from understanding, scientifically speaking..

Enjoy your fibre optic broadband instead..

Thick as a brick IRL :/

[Serinity]

What's strange is that everything you see is biological, chemical.. Bound by the constraints of physics..

But look close enough and its atoms! Charged particles.. With masses of empty space..

Orbits and spin and charges and interaction.. Not like the universe or anything.

...seriously, literally scratching the surface of what could be..

Not even swapping "unicorn" for angel's.. Who apparently are made of light..

Because we are probably a long way from understanding, scientifically speaking..

Enjoy your fibre optic broadband instead..

Thick as a brick IRL :/

I've realised something great today.. It isn't the eyes that are blind, it is the heart. People can come to know God, without science, if they used their brains, and common sense. But nay, they refuse except that God would come down and say "I am God"..

Allah showed me a sign through a non muslim (the non muslim said something, that made me convinced that God exists, and it is US that are the problem, the hearts are. It has never been God), :D :) Alhamdulillah. They label everything as "god of the gaps" as if it is science that shows/verifies truth.. sigh.
Anyways, I am 100% certain there is a God. :)

[Muhaba]

Greetings,

If atheists are a proof that God exists, then people who don't believe in unicorns are proof that unicorns exist, people who don't believe in fairies are proof that fairies exist, and people who don't believe in Thor, Zeus and Odin are proof that they all exist too. This kind of thinking is so obviously nonsensical that it hardly deserves a response.

What is really beyond the pale, though, is the association of a thinker like Wittgenstein with this rubbish. His name has been inserted at the beginning of the video, perhaps to convince people who don't know any better that the speaker has some kind of intellectual credibility. Wittgenstein certainly spoke up until his final day of life; he was visited by four of his former students who answered his request that they pray for him. The speaker in the video has probably half-remembered Wittgenstein's famous quote from the end of the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus: "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." It's advice that the speaker himself would do well to follow.

Peace

no that is not true. no one stays up all night wondering whether unicorns exist or not. everyone simply believes they don't.

[Pygoscelis]

no that is not true. no one stays up all night wondering whether unicorns exist or not. everyone simply believes they don't.

Atheists don't stay up at night wondering whether Gods exist. Nor do we spend any time or energy worrying about Gods. It is not Gods that alarm us. It is people who believe in Gods that sometimes do. I don't worry about things like hell etc. I worry about things like Jim Jones, Daesh, homophobia, etc.

[Pygoscelis]

Cool, neither do I.

Cool. Glad you can see that.

I'm not responding to the remainder of your post, as it is off topic.

Peace be with you.

[Serinity]

I am not interested in writing anymore. Sorry. :) (btw, I didn't read your post, but yeh)

[Physicist]

I agree with the video that a big part of the problem is failures of communication. And I hold it up as evidence against an all powerful God that wants to be known and understood by all. Such a God would not need to resort to the imperfections of human language in text or by prophet. Such a God could merely make us know him. That there are multiple religions, multiple understandings within each religion, and that people fight over that, shows me that any God that exists is either not all powerful or does not intend to be perfectly understood by all.

Imagine tools in a workshop, who are guessing about existence of their creator. All they can observe directly, are basic forces, ie, hammer experiences acceleration as the compensation of periodic deformation of handle, when it approaches nail, accumulated impulse creates strong pressure along rod, which in turn splits apart fibers of the wooden plank and so on. Everything is logical and predictable. No need to believe in almighty human. Why wouldn't he just make all tools happy instead of suffering by hitting each other.

[M.I.A.]

For an atheist that does not waste time with God.. Thinking about God..

You have to question why you frequent Islamic board.

Please refer to perennialism for a relevant topic to discuss.

[Pygoscelis]

For an atheist that does not waste time with God.. Thinking about God..

You have to question why you frequent Islamic board.

Because although I do not "waste time with God" as you put it, I do find religious belief fascinating. Given a world where the majority (or a big minority) believed in something imaginary and people wanted to structure society based on that, give subsidies based on that, and require certain things and acts from you based on that, I think you'd find that worth thinking and talking about as well. Only difference here is that I believe that to be the case right now, and you do not.

[Serinity]

Because although I do not "waste time with God" as you put it, I do find religious belief fascinating. Given a world where the majority (or a big minority) believed in something imaginary and people wanted to structure society based on that, give subsidies based on that, and require certain things and acts from you based on that, I think you'd find that worth thinking and talking about as well. Only difference here is that I believe that to be the case right now, and you do not.

your big assumption that God is imaginary is quite self-deluding. your perception is quite wrong. You will regret hugely for not taking Allah as your Lord, and most importantly, seeing God as imaginary. Unless Allah guides you.

your 'start position' of God, is wrong.

May Allah SWT guide you. Ameen.

I don't feel like responding from here on out. I am tired of debating.

Journey to Islam, usually starts from oneself, by taking one's own intiative of searching for oneself.

[M.I.A.]

Because although I do not "waste time with God" as you put it, I do find religious belief fascinating. Given a world where the majority (or a big minority) believed in something imaginary and people wanted to structure society based on that, give subsidies based on that, and require certain things and acts from you based on that, I think you'd find that worth thinking and talking about as well. Only difference here is that I believe that to be the case right now, and you do not.

What subsidies? O_o

I think you need to clarify..

Subsidies exist within agriculture and industry independent of religion...

Although bias may still occur.

Everything else you mentioned is the same also, a builder is a builder regardless of religion..

Not really sure what you are getting at.

Those same interactions.. Favouritism exists regardless of religion...

Although the approach of Islam towards it is something you may have to explain to me...

I'm useless with people.

[Pygoscelis]

Subsidies in the literal sense as well as the figurative. Where I live churches, mosques, temples, etc do not have to pay taxes as other organizations do. That giant church in downtown Toronto doesn't have to pay property tax, for example, which is a HUGE subsidy to the church.

The same church pushes for bans on same sex marriage outside of its doors (ie of people not in their religion), bans on stem cell research, morning after pill, etc. The Catholic Church even contrubites to the spread of AIDS in Africa by forbidding condom use. No rationale is given for any of the above except for an appeal to obediende to a being that I dont believe even exists.

Now imagine yourself in that same situation. Pick any being you see as imaginary (Odin, Ra, faeries, ghosts, loch Ness monster, whatever) and imagine people demanding the same level of control over other people's lives based on it. And further imagine these people having killed infidels and apostates and blasphemers to this imaginary being. Further imagine them then telling you that YOU can't possibly be a moral person without obeying the imaginary being and what they say it wants.

Then you will see why Atheists care about religion. If religious believers simply kept it all to themselves, you would not hear nearly as much from Atheists.

[Muezzin]

Can't we all just get along?

Except for Bill Maher, he's a butthead.

[ardianto]

Atheists ...

Greeting Pygoscelis.

My question is bit out of topic, and maybe ridiculous. But I am so curious.

You must be know that religious people believe that supernatural creatures like jinn, ghost, etc, do exist. It make them often feel 'the unusual fear' when they must pass a cemetery at night, or stay in scary place like old empty building. It often depicted in horror movies.

But I heard Atheists don't believe that jinn, ghost, etc, do exist. So, do Atheists ever felt 'the unusual fear' when they pass cemetery at night or stay in scary place, like religious people feel?.

[Pygoscelis]

Greeting Pygoscelis.

My question is bit out of topic, and maybe ridiculous. But I am so curious.

You must be know that religious people believe that supernatural creatures like jinn, ghost, etc, do exist. It make them often feel 'the unusual fear' when they must pass a cemetery at night, or stay in scary place like old empty building. It often depicted in horror movies.

But I heard Atheists don't believe that jinn, ghost, etc, do exist. So, do Atheists ever felt 'the unusual fear' when they pass cemetery at night or stay in scary place, like religious people feel?.

Well, first it has to be noted that atheism just means a lack of belief in Gods. Atheists can believe in ghosts, zombies etc, though I think it fair to assume that most don't.

And even if somebody doesn't believe in ghosts or zombies, etc, they can still be spooked. I can be spooked when standing in a graveyard, mostly due to TV and movies, etc. I notice that I don't have the same reaction in the bright and clinical hospital morgue that I do standing in a gothic graveyard at night.

[ardianto]

Well, first it has to be noted that atheism just means a lack of belief in Gods. Atheists can believe in ghosts, zombies etc, though I think it fair to assume that most don't.

And even if somebody doesn't believe in ghosts or zombies, etc, they can still be spooked. I can be spooked when standing in a graveyard, mostly due to TV and movies, etc. I notice that I don't have the same reaction in the bright and clinical hospital morgue that I do standing in a gothic graveyard at night.

Thanks for your answer. :)