Can I be a dhimmi?

[fschmidt]

I follow the Old Testament. Muhammad may well be a prophet since he is responsible for making so many find God, but Muhammad is not my prophet because I personally cannot relate to the Quran. I relate to Moses and to the Old Testament.

I have been looking for a refuge from modern culture for years. I consider modern culture to be pure evil and I want no part of it. I would like to associate with a sound religion, even if I don't share its beliefs. As far as I know, there are only 3 religions with the sense to reject the evils of modern culture. These are Orthodox Judaism, traditional Anabaptists, and Islam. Orthodox Judaism is problematic because it is racist and because it twists the Old Testament beyond recognition. Most of Christianity is modern and worthless, but traditional Anabaptists are okay and I am investigating them. I know least about Islam, which is why I am here to ask questions.

So my question is simple, can I be a dhimmi in an Islamic community and be socially accepted by that community and offered refuge from the horrors of modern culture?

[Bhabha]

Wait, if you follow the old testament, how are you not Jewish? The old testament is the Torah...

[fschmidt]

Wait, if you follow the old testament, how are you not Jewish? The old testament is the Torah...

Jewish is an ethnicity. I think you mean a follower of Judaism. But Judaism follows the Talmud, not the Old Testament. Just look at the core values of Judaism. They have no basis in the Old Testament. At its core, Judaism is racist. Yet Moses married a Midianite and a black woman. Judaism has detailed dietary laws like seperating milk and meat which have no basis in the Old Testament. I could go on and on, since I know quite a bit about Judaism. But the bottom line is that Judaism has strayed further from the Old Testament than either traditional Christianity or Islam have. This is one of the reasons that Jesus was so annoyed with the Pharisees.

[sister herb]

"A dhimmi; Arabic: ذمي, meaning "protected person") refers to specific individuals living in Muslim lands, who were granted special status and safety in Islamic law in return for paying the capital tax. This status was originally only made available to non-Muslims who were People of the Book, namely, Jews and Christians), but was later extended to include Zoroastrians, Mandeans, and, in some areas, Hindus and Buddhists. The term connotes an obligation of the state to protect the individual, including the individual's life, property, and freedom of religion and worship, and required loyalty to the empire, and a poll tax known as the jizya. Dhimmi had fewer legal and social rights than Muslims, but more rights than other non-Muslim religious subjects. This status applied to millions of people living from the Atlantic Ocean to India from the seventh century until modern times."

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Dhimmi

I think it depends a lot of the Islamic community you lives. You better ask kind of question from the local imam.

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[fschmidt]

I think it depends a lot of the Islamic community you lives. You better ask kind of question from the local imam.

Thank you, I will.

[Bhabha]

Jewish is an ethnicity. I think you mean a follower of Judaism. But Judaism follows the Talmud, not the Old Testament. Just look at the core values of Judaism. They have no basis in the Old Testament. At its core, Judaism is racist. Yet Moses married a Midianite and a black woman. Judaism has detailed dietary laws like seperating milk and meat which have no basis in the Old Testament. I could go on and on, since I know quite a bit about Judaism. But the bottom line is that Judaism has strayed further from the Old Testament than either traditional Christianity or Islam have. This is one of the reasons that Jesus was so annoyed with the Pharisees.

It's not an ethnicity, it has been racialized as an ethnicity, originally by the Spaniards.... in their anti-semintic sentiment, which is why despite Jews converting into Christianity, they were called "conversos" and the Spaniards kicked them out of Spain thinking that they would make the blood of Spaniards impure. As such being Jewish was afforded this undeniable race through blood lineage, that's how racial discrimination happens.. First it was blood, then it was skin color, hair color, eyes, etc. and now it's values and "culture" that is racialized, hence why some people re-racialize people who become Muslim into something foreign. Once I became Muslim, apparently my "race" also changed. :P ;D;D;D;D;D;D

As for the milk and the meat... it hurts your stomach.

[MuhammadIbrahim]

Dear brother in humanity,
I think you are a dhimmi. Muslims consider the people of Christianity and Judaism dhimmis.

[anatolian]

Dhimmi is a term related to Islamic state as stated above. Non-muslims living in an Islamic state should pay jizyah tax and they become dhimmi which means protected by the law. If you are living in an un Islamic state you cant be a dhimmi technically. You dont need to be at the moment anyway.

But you must understand that it is all about this world. Being a dhimmi gives you equal rights with muslims in the life but it doesnt give you salvation in the eternal life, at least since you are well aware of Islam. You will be asked on the Day of Judgement why did not you accept Islam although you were well aware of it..

[fschmidt]

It's not an ethnicity, it has been racialized as an ethnicity, originally by the Spaniards.... in their anti-semintic sentiment, which is why despite Jews converting into Christianity, they were called "conversos" and the Spaniards kicked them out of Spain thinking that they would make the blood of Spaniards impure. As such being Jewish was afforded this undeniable race through blood lineage, that's how racial discrimination happens.. First it was blood, then it was skin color, hair color, eyes, etc. and now it's values and "culture" that is racialized, hence why some people re-racialize people who become Muslim into something foreign. Once I became Muslim, apparently my "race" also changed.

As for the milk and the meat... it hurts your stomach.

What the Spaniards thought of Jews and what modern fools think of Muslims is irrelevant. What matters is the truth, not opinions. Rabbinic Judaism defines a person with a Jewish mother as a Jew. This makes being being Jewish more dependent on ancestry than on belief. It is true that one can convert to Judaism and then be considered a Jew, but there are far more Jews by ancestry who don't practice Judaism at all. One can deny every word of the Old Testament and Talmud, and still be a Jew. Can one deny every word of the Quran and still be a Muslim?

And I like cheeseburgers and my stomach is fine.

[fschmidt]

Dear brother in humanity,
I think you are a dhimmi. Muslims consider the people of Christianity and Judaism dhimmis.

Thank you.

[Bhabha]

What the Spaniards thought of Jews and what modern fools think of Muslims is irrelevant. What matters is the truth, not opinions. Rabbinic Judaism defines a person with a Jewish mother as a Jew. This makes being being Jewish more dependent on ancestry than on belief. It is true that one can convert to Judaism and then be considered a Jew, but there are far more Jews by ancestry who don't practice Judaism at all. One can deny every word of the Old Testament and Talmud, and still be a Jew. Can one deny every word of the Quran and still be a Muslim?

And I like cheeseburgers and my stomach is fine.

There are people who do not follow anything of the Quran and were born Muslim and as such are considered to be Muslims by birth. In Islam, babies are born Muslim if the father is Muslim and I understand that in Judaism the lineage is by the mother. If a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man marry, their child will carry the name of the father.. hence why Muslim women do not marry non-Muslim men. Hmm, however I wonder how a Jewish woman and a Muslim man can marry.. what will the baby follow? Islam or Judaism?

Your thinking of it as an ethnicity therefore also assumes that this "lineage" would be passed by the father (as well, since it takes two to tango), so if a Jewish man marries a Christian woman, the Spaniards and as such the "ethnic" creation of the Jewish as a race is to assume that the Jewish "character" would be passed by the father into the next generation. If Rabbinic Judaism defines a person with a Jewish mother as a Jew, then what of the father who marries a non-Jew, are they no longer Jewish? Then it's not an ethnicity, it's a religious lineage which has been concealed as a race...

[fschmidt]

Dhimmi is a term related to Islamic state as stated above. Non-muslims living in an Islamic state should pay jizyah tax and they become dhimmi which means protected by the law. If you are living in an un Islamic state you cant be a dhimmi technically. You dont need to be at the moment anyway.

Well maybe something analogous could be worked out. I would gladly pay 10% of my income to an Islamic center in return for being socially accepted and being able to do business with Muslims and not having to deal more than necessary with members of modern culture.

But you must understand that it is all about this world. Being a dhimmi gives you equal rights with muslims in the life but it doesnt give you salvation in the eternal life, at least since you are well aware of Islam. You will be asked on the Day of Judgement why did not you accept Islam although you were well aware of it..

Our views on salvation depend on faith. On this, my view differs from yours. My view is that all who do God's will can have salvation regardless of their belief. In my estimation, this currently only includes traditional Anabaptists and good Muslims and a few isolated individuals.

[MuhammadIbrahim]

I completely agree with sister, Bhabha.

[fschmidt]

There are people who do not follow anything of the Quran and were born Muslim and as such are considered to be Muslims by birth.

That is sad to hear. I came here to learn, so let me make sure I understand this. A person who is born Muslim and rejects the Quran and denies the existence of God is still considered Muslim? I just want to be sure about this.

Your thinking of it as an ethnicity therefore also assumes that this "lineage" would be passed by the father (as well, since it takes two to tango), so if a Jewish man marries a Christian woman, the Spaniards and as such the "ethnic" creation of the Jewish as a race is to assume that the Jewish "character" would be passed by the father into the next generation. If Rabbinic Judaism defines a person with a Jewish mother as a Jew, then what of the father who marries a non-Jew, are they no longer Jewish? Then it's not an ethnicity, it's a religious lineage which has been concealed as a race...

It isn't a pure ethnicity. (There is actually no such thing.) My point is that it is more based on ancestry than on belief. And since most Jewish women marry Jewish men, and since conversion to Judaism is quite hard, the result is that Judaism is effectively an ethnic group that has some intermarriage as all ethnic groups do.

[MuhammadIbrahim]

The sister meant that some Muslims are born Muslim but don't follow the teachings of Islam, but they still believe in the oneness of God and his messenger Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon Him).

[Bhabha]

That is sad to hear. I came here to learn, so let me make sure I understand this. A person who is born Muslim and rejects the Quran and denies the existence of God is still considered Muslim? I just want to be sure about this.

It isn't a pure ethnicity. (There is actually such thing.) My point is that it is more based on ancestry than on belief. And since most Jewish women marry Jewish men, and since conversion to Judaism is quite hard, the result is that Judaism is effectively an ethnic group that has some intermarriage as all ethnic groups do.

A person who denies the Torah (as a Jew) becomes an apostate, to the same extent that a person who denies the Quran becomes an apostate. However, BOTH of these people who were born as Muslims, were born as Muslims.

In Judaism this is the term used mumar (מומר as the one who has changed), kofer (כופר, "the denier"), as well as meshumad (משומד, "the destroyed one"). In Islam, someone who has denied is كافر‎ kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār; feminine كافرة kāfirah. Exact same thing, but they were both born as Muslims. Hence you have people who despite learning about Islam are not "Muslims" by practicing the teachings of the Prophet or by following what is in the Quran, but they become "cultural" Muslims by birth.

There's an interesting book by Margaret R. Greer, Walter D. Mignolo and Maureen Quilligan called Rereading the Black Legend and it talks about the racial construction of a Jew and a Muslim. It's quite interesting. :) As a descendant of Sephardic Jews who were kicked out of Spain, the term Jewish by blood carries on a lot of weight in constructing our racial identity.

[fschmidt]

A person who denies the Torah (as a Jew) becomes an apostate, to the same extent that a person who denies the Quran becomes an apostate. However, BOTH of these people who were born as Muslims, were born as Muslims.


In Judaism this is the term used mumar (מומר as the one who has changed), kofer (כופר, "the denier"), as well as meshumad (משומד, "the destroyed one"). In Islam, someone who has denied is كافر‎ kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār; feminine كافرة kāfirah. Exact same thing, but they were both born as Muslims. Hence you have people who despite learning about Islam are not "Muslims" by practicing the teachings of the Prophet or by following what is in the Quran, but they become "cultural" Muslims by birth.


There's an interesting book by Margaret R. Greer, Walter D. Mignolo and Maureen Quilligan called Rereading the Black Legend and it talks about the racial construction of a Jew and a Muslim. It's quite interesting. As a descendant of Sephardic Jews who were kicked out of Spain, the term Jewish by blood carries on a lot of weight in constructing our racial identity.

So I assume you come from a jewish background, like me. I attended Orthodox synagogue for about a year and studied Judaism. We can debate all kinds of things, but let me stick to the practical points. Judaism requires me to put my allegiance to an immoral jew who follows nothing over a non-jew who follows the Old Testament but can't convert to Judaism because they differ on some stupid Talmudic point. I find this entirely unacceptable and I find this racist. I absolutely despise racism because my family was mostly wiped out in the Holocaust, and I see little difference in the level of racism found in Nazism and Judaism, much to my disgust.

[anatolian]

Well maybe something analogous could be worked out. I would gladly pay 10% of my income to an Islamic center in return for being socially accepted and being able to do business with Muslims and not having to deal more than necessary with members of modern culture.

Salam friend. I would like to congratulate you if you are willing to do that. However, this will be very strange for them and probably they will not know what to do at first.. :) I think you wold be the first person who want to pay jizyah in an un Islamic state. But well, this money can be used for charity..May Allah accept it from you..

Our views on salvation depend on faith. On this, my view differs from yours. My view is that all who do God's will can have salvation regardless of their belief. In my estimation, this currently only includes traditional Anabaptists and good Muslims and a few isolated individuals.

Ok. I know this is another topic. We will discuss it later. But I just want to say at the moment in order to do The God's will we must accept His message..

[Bhabha]

So I assume you come from a jewish background, like me. I attended Orthodox synagogue for about a year and studied Judaism. We can debate all kinds of things, but let me stick to the practical points. Judaism requires me to put my allegiance to an immoral jew who follows nothing over a non-jew who follows the Old Testament but can't convert to Judaism because they differ on some stupid Talmudic point. I find this entirely unacceptable and I find this racist. I absolutely despise racism because my family was mostly wiped out in the Holocaust, and I see little difference in the level of racism found in Nazism and Judaism, much to my disgust.

Yes, I come from a Jewish background however, my family was forcefully converted into Catholicism and so we are no longer technically "Jewish" since it is just "blood" that defines us, though out of continual curiosity and I guess a desire to learn more about Spain ended up also looking into anti-semitic sentiment across Europe. I have only actually talked to mekubbals and so my understanding of Judaism differs a little slightly.

Listen, faith in these kind of aspects is internal. A lot of people become Muslims and you cannot generally see that they are Muslims, unless you ask them or unless they wear the hijab like me, but which I can be confused depending on the neighborhood I am in, as an orthodox Jew. :p What makes someone a Muslim? or a Jew? Or a Christian? Is it a legal paper declaring that they are Jewish, Muslim or Christian? Or is it their own internal recognition of their beliefs and affiliations? According to my mother, I am not Muslim because I was not born a Muslim, she always screams at me asking me why I defend Muslims when I wasn't born a Muslim... I don't need a paper, I don't need blood, I don't need external recognition by ANYONE other than Allah to tell me what I am, what my beliefs are and who I am. The same thing when my ancestors were forcefully removed from Spain after being converted when people didn't want to get their blood "tainted" or "poisoned". They became "Catholics/Christians", but that external belief to please someone else didn't do anything, because they were still considered a Jewish problem to the Spaniards. Changing your name by paper, your religion by paper, what does it do? The paper can be burned, and then if it's burned, do you stop your beliefs? Your internal disposition towards having conviction?

You know in Islam, religion is not by compulsion. I never jotted down or had anyone sign my conversion into Islam, nor did I have it registered and nor did I change my name to show my "Muslim" character, because Allah will not judge these things. He won't ask me, why I didn't change my name, why others didn't "register" me as a Muslim, he will judge me on my intentions and actions to do things that are pleasing to him, to be kind, to be good, to obey his command and to do things with good intention. No one besides Allah (or in Hebrew, Adonai), can know what is in your heart, inside your mind and within your body.

[Bhabha]

You are a full member!!!!!!!! congratulations (off topic, but exciting!)

[Bhabha]

Can I ask what kind of things makes you not relate to our Prophet Muhammad? (PBUH) If it's possible to know! Out of curiosity :)

[sister herb]

I am wondring how this thing goes at nowadays in the Islamic countries? Is there some special tax for non-Muslims who is categorized as "dhimmi" and some different citizenship and rights than for Muslims? Or is this term dhimmi using in practice at all? How with in the court - different laws to Muslims and for dhimmis?

[Bhabha]

There's no such thing in the gulf at least lol. Since no one pays tax [emoji39]. Everyone receives protection under the state as long as you don't do things that are illegal, or insult Islam in any way.

[anatolian]

UAE is the back yard of UK as KSA is the back yard of USA..Actually I wonder if there is a real Islamic State in the World today? Iran seems to me the closest one if not a real one, though most of the sunnis do not consider them even muslim..

[Misbah0411]

Jewish is an ethnicity. I think you mean a follower of Judaism. But Judaism follows the Talmud, not the Old Testament. Just look at the core values of Judaism. They have no basis in the Old Testament. At its core, Judaism is racist. Yet Moses married a Midianite and a black woman. Judaism has detailed dietary laws like seperating milk and meat which have no basis in the Old Testament. I could go on and on, since I know quite a bit about Judaism. But the bottom line is that Judaism has strayed further from the Old Testament than either traditional Christianity or Islam have. This is one of the reasons that Jesus was so annoyed with the Pharisees.

You are mixing Zionism with Judaism. Zionism is what prevails today in the Zionist State where they put more stock in the Talmud over the Torah. Zionism has hijacked Judaism for its nefarious aims. Most of its followers are not even Semitic and are not descendants of Abraham through Isaac. Rather, they originated from Khazaria and then migrated to Eastern Europe. They are called Ashkenazi Jews. It is these that are the rascals of the world.

[sister herb]

UAE is the back yard of UK as KSA is the back yard of USA..Actually I wonder if there is a real Islamic State in the World today? Iran seems to me the closest one if not a real one, though most of the sunnis do not consider them even muslim..

Well, I am wondering is there any country which legislation would has mentions about dhimmis or is this just the historical practise? I have read about this word while I was reading the history but what about nowadays...

[Misbah0411]

Well, I am wondering is there any country which legislation would has mentions about dhimmis or is this just the historical practise? I have read about this word while I was reading the history but what about nowadays...

Jizyah tax that the dhimmies pay to live under the Shariah of Allah has and will never be abrogated until the return of Jesus a.s. When he descends and destroys the the Dajjal, the jizyah tax is no longer needed because nothing but Islam will be accepted by the masses.

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful)

I'd second that question, @fschmidt. And welcome to IB (though I know in technical detail you'd registered many years before and recently started posting again.) But welcome, welcome! Also, I'd say as an ex-atheist that part of the ability to relate to the Quran comes from understanding classical Arabic - I'd recommend lectures of Brother Nouman Ali Khan who breaks down classical Arabic Quran in a way that's relatable and easy to understand for non-native Arabic speakers like myself.

Also, non-Muslims are typically respected in Muslim communities, and if you want to live in a Muslim community, that would not be a problem; what I'd repeat is what @Bhabha had already informed you that cultural Muslims might not be practicing because they perceive their culture as more important than Islam and might be ignorant of their own religion. That said, practicing Muslims will God-willing be able to give you the flavor of having an Islamic culture, but unfortunately I cannot point you in the right direction of where this perfect community exists as I'm still trying to find my way to it.

Can I ask what kind of things makes you not relate to our Prophet Muhammad? (PBUH) If it's possible to know! Out of curiosity :)

[anatolian]

Well, I am wondering is there any country which legislation would has mentions about dhimmis or is this just the historical practise? I have read about this word while I was reading the history but what about nowadays...

Acctually I dont know. Turkey is a secular republic and I dont know other muslim countries so much..

But as far as I know no there is no jizyah in any muslim country today. It is so hard to implement today where the world is ruled economically by the non Muslim west.

[fschmidt]

Can I ask what kind of things makes you not relate to our Prophet Muhammad? (PBUH) If it's possible to know! Out of curiosity :)

I just relate much more to the Old Testament than to the Quran. I have nothing against the Quran, but when I read it, it doesn't seem nearly as compelling to me as the Old Testament does.

[Bhabha]

I just relate much more to the Old Testament than to the Quran. I have nothing against the Quran, but when I read it, it doesn't seem nearly as compelling to me as the Old Testament does.

That's because it's read in English [emoji39] do you read the Old Testament in Aramaic and Hebrew ?

[fschmidt]

That's because it's read in English [emoji39] do you read the Old Testament in Aramaic and Hebrew ?

Not very much. I am starting to learn Hebrew but it is difficult, and I have no plans to learn Aramaic.

I have heard of the importance of learning Arabic to read the Quran. But my understanding is that Hebrew and Arabic are similar languages, so then why is to so much more difficult to translate the Quran to English than to translate the Old Testament? I can appreciate the Old Testament in English, but I appreciate it even more in Hebrew.

[Yahya.]

So my question is simple, can I be a dhimmi in an Islamic community and be socially accepted by that community and offered refuge from the horrors of modern culture?

You can also do that without paying jizya, because there is no islamic state to pay jizya. And a community is not allowed to collect jizya. The reason of paying jizya is to protect non-muslims (their wealth, freedom, religion etc.) but communities don't have the capability to do this.
I agree with @anatolian , and I hope you will learn more about Islam and become a muslim, to save your eternal life in the hereafter.

The second caliph Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) and several companions were passing in front of a monastery, he saw a weak, old priest and started to cry. The companions asked him why he was crying. He pointed at the priest and read these verses of the Quran:

''Labouring (hard), weary.
Entering into Blazing Fire''
(Ghashiya 3,4)

He works hard and leaves the enjoyment of this world but is still not save from the fire, because he worships others besides Allah (God).