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azc
05-24-2016, 04:25 AM
What do you think ?

Give reasons for your opinion.
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Bhabha
05-24-2016, 05:06 AM
NO ITS NOT. How do you think the first caliphs were ELECTED!? Whoever keeps saying it's haram is doing bidah
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Serinity
05-24-2016, 07:19 AM
I'm honestly confused. But voting with the intention to promote kufr, is haram, definitely, and is kufr.

Instead of spreading our opinions lets consult the scholars, and see what they say. Cuz speaking without knowledge is highly reprimanded.. afaik. May Allah SWT forgive me if I said any wrong. Ameen. Allahu alam.
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Anokha
05-24-2016, 07:20 AM
Vote to a haraami is haraam of-course...

Note: Haraami means no abuse it means a man who eat speak and listen to haraam things.. etc etc
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muslimah_B
05-24-2016, 09:54 AM
You are allowed to vote if by voting it helps or aids muslims in anyway, or by voting stops someone who is against islam/muslims from getting into power.
If you dont want to vote then you don't have to, but dont call it bidah or haram as its not in certain circumstances

https://islamqa.info/en/3062

https://islamqa.info/en/111898

https://islamqa.info/en/9911
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greenhill
05-24-2016, 09:56 AM
Interesting...

Now that it is asked, I feel voting is not, ut the campaigning for votes is..

What do you think?


:peace:
Reply

Misbah0411
05-24-2016, 10:21 AM
From the examples of the Rightly Guided Khalifah and further on, there was no mass general election where people would go into voting booths and cast ballots to choose their candidate. The people of influence in the society would be the ones who would make the determination as who would be the next Khalifah. Then the general masses would follow suit once they arrived at a decision. And in the beginning, whoever Medina chose, then rest of the towns and provinces would follow suit with what is called the bai'ah (pledge). Those of the people of influence would directly pledge to the newly appointed leader and the general masses in the rest of the territories would give the bai'ah to his appointed governors.

Abu Bakr's appointment came in the courtyard of Sa'ad ibn Ubaadah when Umar impetuously grabbed Abu Bakr's hand and made bai'ah to squash any fitnah that was going to occur. The others of the Ansar followed afterwards. Umar was chosen by Abu Bakr on his deathbed. Uthman was chosen though shura (council) of six potential candidates selected by Umar. As you can see, none of this was the decision of the general masses. When the people of influence made their decision, then the common people obeyed.

Lastly and more importantly, all of these people (those appointed and those who made the decision) were Muslims and implemented Shariah, the Law of Allah. They were not participating to establish or keep in place man-made laws. This is kufr. Voting in the political process of the disbelievers suggests that you would rather abide by that law, be complicit in perpetuating that law, are pleased with that law. This is kufr. Democracy is the will of the people. Not the Will of Allah. Muslims better get their affairs in order and stop imitating the disbelievers in their politics. Also, when a Muslim votes like many of them have done with Western candidates who eventually got elected, then those Muslims are complicit with whatever of warfare and oppression that those leaders subject the Muslims around the world. Also, of the evil laws they implement like allowing gay marriage. Let that be on your conscious. You assisted in putting them there with your vote. You suffer the consequences on the Day of Judgement for your participation in that political process. And Allah Knows Best
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Cpt.America
05-24-2016, 10:34 AM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
NO ITS NOT. How do you think the first caliphs were ELECTED!? Whoever keeps saying it's haram is doing bidah
Caliphs were not necessarily elected on the basis of a democratic general opinion.
There however were Shura councils involved that reached a consensus on the who the Caliph would be.
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muslimah_B
05-24-2016, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
From the examples of the Rightly Guided Khalifah and further on, there was no mass general election where people would go into voting booths and cast ballots to choose their candidate. The people of influence in the society would be the ones who would make the determination as who would be the next Khalifah. Then the general masses would follow suit once they arrived at a decision. And in the beginning, whoever Medina chose, then rest of the towns and provinces would follow suit with what is called the bai'ah (pledge). Those of the people of influence would directly pledge to the newly appointed leader and the general masses in the rest of the territories would give the bai'ah to his appointed governors.

Abu Bakr's appointment came in the courtyard of Sa'ad ibn Ubaadah when Umar impetuously grabbed Abu Bakr's hand and made bai'ah to squash any fitnah that was going to occur. The others of the Ansar followed afterwards. Umar was chosen by Abu Bakr on his deathbed. Uthman was chosen though shura (council) of six potential candidates selected by Umar. As you can see, none of this was the decision of the general masses. When the people of influence made their decision, then the common people obeyed.

Lastly and more importantly, all of these people (those appointed and those who made the decision) were Muslims and implemented Shariah, the Law of Allah. They were not participating to establish or keep in place man-made laws. This is kufr. Voting in the political process of the disbelievers suggests that you would rather abide by that law, be complicit in perpetuating that law, are pleased with that law. This is kufr. Democracy is the will of the people. Not the Will of Allah. Muslims better get their affairs in order and stop imitating the disbelievers in their politics. Also, when a Muslim votes like many of them have done with Western candidates who eventually got elected, then those Muslims are complicit with whatever of warfare and oppression that those leaders subject the Muslims around the world. Let that be on your conscious. You assisted in putting them there. You suffer the consequences on the Day of Judgement for your participation in that political process. And Allah Knows Best
If you read what i posted, its allowed to vote if the benifit is greater than the loss. There are obviously certain circumstances which allow it, it does not mean that everytime there is a time to vote we must.

Example 2 people going for power and one of them is against muslims and will bring about oppression against them, shut down masjids, make their lives difficult etc
The other one will not do these things and is for allowing all faiths to live peacefully with no problems

Then you are allowed to vote for the 2nd person to protect the interests of muslims ie the lesser evil.
This in no way means that anybody is supporting their ways or kufr or even wants to be governed by them and whoever says that needs to fear Allah in their speech towards muslims. Yes there are SOME who would rather be governmed by man made laws over sharia (May Allah guide them)
But we are not in a position to call for sharia, in the west muslims are not the majority which is what allows it to be implemented, we are the minority so untill that time, while we are living in non muslim/islamic lands we have to adhere to their laws unless it explicity goes against the law of Allah.

Not everything is black and white, there are grey areas which is left to the scholars to give rulings on these matters
Reply

Cpt.America
05-24-2016, 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
From the examples of the Rightly Guided Khalifah and further on, there was no mass general election where people would go into voting booths and cast ballots to choose their candidate. The people of influence in the society would be the ones who would make the determination as who would be the next Khalifah. Then the general masses would follow suit once they arrived at a decision. And in the beginning, whoever Medina chose, then rest of the towns and provinces would follow suit with what is called the bai'ah (pledge). Those of the people of influence would directly pledge to the newly appointed leader and the general masses in the rest of the territories would give the bai'ah to his appointed governors.

Abu Bakr's appointment came in the courtyard of Sa'ad ibn Ubaadah when Umar impetuously grabbed Abu Bakr's hand and made bai'ah to squash any fitnah that was going to occur. The others of the Ansar followed afterwards. Umar was chosen by Abu Bakr on his deathbed. Uthman was chosen though shura (council) of six potential candidates selected by Umar. As you can see, none of this was the decision of the general masses. When the people of influence made their decision, then the common people obeyed.

Lastly and more importantly, all of these people (those appointed and those who made the decision) were Muslims and implemented Shariah, the Law of Allah. They were not participating to establish or keep in place man-made laws. This is kufr. Voting in the political process of the disbelievers suggests that you would rather abide by that law, be complicit in perpetuating that law, are pleased with that law. This is kufr. Democracy is the will of the people. Not the Will of Allah. Muslims better get their affairs in order and stop imitating the disbelievers in their politics. Also, when a Muslim votes like many of them have done with Western candidates who eventually got elected, then those Muslims are complicit with whatever of warfare and oppression that those leaders subject the Muslims around the world. Also, of the evil laws they implement like allowing gay marriage. Let that be on your conscious. You assisted in putting them there with your vote. You suffer the consequences on the Day of Judgement for your participation in that political process. And Allah Knows Best
In an Islamic society, when a popular opinion is contrary to sharia, then the option in does not matter, sharia is obviously the precedent. I agree with you on this brother.

However in the matter involving dunya, if I had a club or a council (say a basketball club) and we decided to run that by democratic voting, instead of having an Amir make the decisions, to my knowledge this is lawful.

Living in a nonmuslim society, where the system is not based on Islam, I do not see any issues in voting for whatever topic is put to vote, as long as the Muslim voting does not vote for something haram (as in they should go and vote against legalizing homosexuality or not vote at all, but it would be absolutely haram for them to vote in favor of that because this goes against their own Islamic principles.)
I am not arguing any merits of democracy. We are seeing moral degradation right in front of us.
I am just saying that I do not see how democracy for nonmuslim states is an issue. They're nonmuslim societies to begin with anyway and if we live in one the best we can do is to contribute what Islamkc values we have to that society and give them dawah.

However in an Islamic society, pure democracy is not something that should be allowed. Democracy can only be allowed so much that does not clash with sharia. The whims of the people on the basis of their naffs, regardless of how popular they may be, should never override the law decreed by Allah.

Also in terms of voting for prime minister or president or whatever title in a nonmuslim state,
I cannot blame a person who voted against president bush jr, for bush's crimes. He did what was in his power to prevent that candidate from coming into power.
And even a person who did vote for Bush the first time, surely did so believing he wouldn't do the things he did. (I can't think of any excusable reason anyone voted for him the second time though.)
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Misbah0411
05-24-2016, 10:50 AM
I got news for you they are all against Muslims. Some show it more than others. If you want to deceive yourself in thinking otherwise then be deluded. Allah knows best what is the nature of the disbeliever when He made the general statement:

120. Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the Guidance of Allah (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) that is the (only) Guidance. And if you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) were to follow their (Jews and Christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur'an), then you would have against Allah neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper. (Surah Baqarah)



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greenhill
05-24-2016, 10:51 AM
Interesting...

Now that it is asked, I feel voting is not, but the campaigning for votes is..

What do you think?


:peace:
Reply

Misbah0411
05-24-2016, 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Cpt.America
In an Islamic society, when a popular opinion is contrary to sharia, then the option in does not matter, sharia is obviously the precedent. I agree with you on this brother.

However in the matter involving dunya, if I had a club or a council (say a basketball club) and we decided to run that by democratic voting, instead of having an Amir make the decisions, to my knowledge this is lawful.

Living in a nonmuslim society, where the system is not based on Islam, I do not see any issues in voting for whatever topic is put to vote, as long as the Muslim voting does not vote for something haram (as in they should go and vote against legalizing homosexuality or not vote at all, but it would be absolutely haram for them to vote in favor of that because this goes against their own Islamic principles.)
I am not arguing any merits of democracy. We are seeing moral degradation right in front of us.
I am just saying that I do not see how democracy for nonmuslim states is an issue. They're nonmuslim societies to begin with anyway and if we live in one the best we can do is to contribute what Islamkc values we have to that society and give them dawah.

However in an Islamic society, pure democracy is not something that should be allowed. Democracy can only be allowed so much that does not clash with sharia. The whims of the people on the basis of their naffs, regardless of how popular they may be, should never override the law decreed by Allah.

Also in terms of voting for prime minister or president or whatever title in a nonmuslim state,
I cannot blame a person who voted against president bush jr, for bush's crimes. He did what was in his power to prevent that candidate from coming into power.
And even a person who did vote for Bush the first time, surely did so believing he wouldn't do the things he did. (I can't think of any excusable reason anyone voted for him the second time though.)
We are not talking about some club. This is about voting for disbelievers in a kufr based political system. And whatever little you get in dunya (the crumbs) from participating in the elections at the expense in the Hereafter.
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Cpt.America
05-24-2016, 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
We are not talking about some club. This is about voting for disbelievers in a kufr based political system. And whatever little you get in dunya (the crumbs) from participating in the elections at the expense in the Hereafter.
I will be honest, I would like to edit/remove my previous post in retrospect as I honestly do not have enough knowledge to make a comment and I also honestly do not have an opinion for or against this right now.
I am not currently in a position where I have an option of voting, so I don't worry about 'whether I would vote or not'

I will leave my comment though, because maybe those opinions should be stated just to be put on the table. (So that they may be disproven or supported by someone who is more legitimate in these matters than I am)

But I myself do not really know or have an opinion on the matter of voting in nonmuslim systems of government.

To me pure democracy for an Islamic society should not be advocated ever.
But voting in a nonmuslim democratic society is just not something I am sure about (both for or against)

all le that being said, I do not see why it would be haram, but I also have not looked into this issue and lack the required knowledge to make any such statement with any sort of finality.

I do appreciate your input though brother Misbah0411, Jazakallah.
and I pray that Allah guide me (and all of us) to the Truth, Ameen
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azc
05-24-2016, 01:13 PM
@misbah 0411

So you think it is kufr..?

And the magnitude of your fatwa applied on a large number of Muslims.

All the muslim countries are the members of UN and you know every member is given the power of voting, moreover. All the laws are man made...?

Do you think Saudi Arab is also involved in kufr...?
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M.I.A.
05-24-2016, 01:34 PM
I have no idea..

If you take a personal loan of 7500 over 3 years.. some places the total interest is between 7 and 8 hundred pounds.. less than 300 per year..

Strange days.

In comparison..

Consider this Internet proof..fact..fact proof..idiot proof..Internet picture I found.



As an idiot.. I would say that voting in itself is not a bad thing, if you can draw straws or let them float.. then voting seems just as hit or miss..

But if you ask me should we stay or leave the EU.. without letting me ask in return..

What the he'll happend since the last time you asked me?

Then it's misdirection..or missing the obvious.
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azc
05-24-2016, 03:12 PM
it's unfortunate to see that almost all the Muslim countries are ruled by kings and dictators and they're reluctant to give the right to their people to elect their rulers. I see a strategic planning behind this campaign against democracy and islamization of democracy. some scholars who are spreading this hatred on internet appear to be the part of this planning..

what was the fault of Mr mursi? Was he not determined to implement shariah laws in Egypt..?

crux of this matter is that islamization of democracy in Egypt rang the bell for the kings and dictators.
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Cpt.America
05-24-2016, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by azc
it's unfortunate to see that almost all the Muslim countries are ruled by kings and dictators and they're reluctant to give the right to their people to elect their rulers. I see a strategic planning behind this campaign against democracy and islamization of democracy. some scholars who are spreading this hatred on internet appear to be the part of this planning..

what was the fault of Mr mursi? Was he not determined to implement shariah laws in Egypt..?

crux of this matter is that islamization of democracy in Egypt rang the bell for the kings and dictators.
This is a brilliant example.

It is because of a lack of democracy that we had Hosni Mubarak and his filth.
So dictatorship is clearly lacking.

However it is because of pure democracy that someone as disgusting as Sisi (although not democratically elected) can enjoy popular support. So a person of Sisi's filth under a true democracy could become elected a person who may even come with platform policies which are anti Islamic.

The truth is apparent that all these systems presently implemented in current governments are flawed to varying degrees and allow for corruption.

That being said I still see nothing wrong or haram in voting against Trump if you are an American citizen.
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Serinity
05-24-2016, 03:37 PM
Hypothetically speaking, would it be permissible for a Muslim to attempt to change democracy by 'joining' and changing it to Shariah?

Go to the top and abolish democracy, and establish Shariah? With the help of the Muslims voting? But...... Afaik people will be checking the head.......... Idk.. Pretty risky.

But isn't it haram to use haram to do something good?
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Misbah0411
05-24-2016, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Serinity
Hypothetically speaking, would it be permissible for a Muslim to attempt to change democracy by 'joining' and changing it to Shariah?

Go to the top and abolish democracy, and establish Shariah? With the help of the Muslims voting? But...... Afaik people will be checking the head.......... Idk.. Pretty risky.

But isn't it haram to use haram to do something good?
There isn't enough Muslims to change the forms of governments in Western Countries. Secondly, how many who call themselves Muslims would even vote to establish Shariah where they live. From the commentators on this forum, it is likely discouraging.
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Misbah0411
05-24-2016, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by azc
it's unfortunate to see that almost all the Muslim countries are ruled by kings and dictators and they're reluctant to give the right to their people to elect their rulers. I see a strategic planning behind this campaign against democracy and islamization of democracy. some scholars who are spreading this hatred on internet appear to be the part of this planning..

what was the fault of Mr mursi? Was he not determined to implement shariah laws in Egypt..?

crux of this matter is that islamization of democracy in Egypt rang the bell for the kings and dictators.
This is why the kuffar use a double standard and are the biggest hypocrites when they talk about "freedom and Democracy" and giving the people the right to vote. Algeria had elections in the 90's and the people voted for Shariah and also in Egypt just a few years ago with Morsi coming into power only for disbelievers hating the decision of the people and turning a blind eye when the military took over by force the "will of the People". Where was the outrage from the U.S.? Nothing. Like I said before, the disbelievers hate Islam and will undermine it covertly and fight it overtly.
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Misbah0411
05-24-2016, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by azc
@misbah 0411

So you think it is kufr..?

And the magnitude of your fatwa applied on a large number of Muslims.

All the muslim countries are the members of UN and you know every member is given the power of voting, moreover. All the laws are man made...?

Do you think Saudi Arab is also involved in kufr...?
One of the nullifiers of Islam is: Supporting and assisting the disbelievers against the Muslims. The proof for this is Allah's statement:

51. O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust). Surah Maidah
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Bhabha
05-24-2016, 08:12 PM
If you say that voting is Kufr, because it is for "Kufrs", then please refrain from paying TAXES as well to these governments because you are actually supporting the Kufr things they do. Moreover, please refrain from asking for financial help, going to their universities, etc. etc. etc. Honestly, it just gets keeping more and more ridiculous, are we actually becoming the highly intolerant identity that Western countries are DRAWING about Muslims? If you say to someone for long enough that they are "this" and "that", then eventually that person will start to think they are this... and they are that...
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Bhabha
05-24-2016, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Cpt.America
Caliphs were not necessarily elected on the basis of a democratic general opinion.
There however were Shura councils involved that reached a consensus on the who the Caliph would be.
The current system of "democratic voting" is not the only system of voting, reaching consensus is similar. I believe the question was asked as to whether "voting" and thus the general question of voting is haram.


I am actually kind of disgusted people continue to create "haram" and "halal" and haraming EVERYTHYING they can find -_-;
*not meant to snap at you*

Why don't people just live in an IGLOO and stop using the internet, it was made by KUFRS.
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Cpt.America
05-24-2016, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
There isn't enough Muslims to change the forms of governments in Western Countries. Secondly, how many who call themselves Muslims would even vote to establish Shariah where they live. From the commentators on this forum, it is likely discouraging.
At the same time, Muslims have to follow sharia, but nonmuslims do not. If we live in a nonmuslim nation we cannot impose sharia on a nonmuslim. But Allah's law is the perfect law and this must be every Muslim's belief. As such we have to support those aspects or trends in government which are in line with or do not contradict with Islamic rules and values, and denounce those that do.

That being said, it is not our business to make a nonmuslim nation follow Islamic law, but we should make it our business to spread Islam so that nonmuslim nation, if Allah wills, is no longer nonmuslim, and thereafter will follow Allah's laws.

In the matter of a Muslim state however, this shouldn't even be a question. There is no excuse for anti-Islamic policy in a Muslim country.
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Cpt.America
05-24-2016, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
The current system of "democratic voting" is not the only system of voting, reaching consensus is similar. I believe the question was asked as to whether "voting" and thus the general question of voting is haram.


I am actually kind of disgusted people continue to create "haram" and "halal" and haraming EVERYTHYING they can find -_-;
*not meant to snap at you*

Why don't people just live in an IGLOO and stop using the internet, it was made by KUFRS.
I understand, I was just clarifying that people have different perceptions of what 'voting' means due to associated connotation (in case anyone's missed it)
Its become a bit of a buzz word, and it seems that people like to argue about it instead of constructively explaining their positions with evidences. Which is unfortunate. We all would like to be educated and corrected if we are in error.

Anyway,
Ultimately there are bigger issues to worry about in the Ummah right now anyway, and we should consult a scholar on these matters of Fiqh.
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Bhabha
05-24-2016, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Cpt.America
I understand, I was just clarifying that people have different perceptions of what 'voting' means due to associated connotation (in case anyone's missed it)
Its become a bit of a buzz word, and it seems that people like to argue about it instead of constructively explaining their positions with evidences. Which is unfortunate. We all would like to be educated and corrected if we are in error.

Anyway,
Ultimately there are bigger issues to worry about in the Ummah right now anyway, and we should consult a scholar on these matters of Fiqh.
Also... I totally apologized if I sounded like I was a snapping turtle @_@

For clarifications,

Voting that is being seen in current "democratic" practices (though democracy is not really implemented.... anyhow) is not the only kind of voting.

People "vote" to come and reach a consensus, for example polls in order to see what the majority of people are thinking about in the population, classify as actual votes, "voting" to reach a consensus, it is just seeing and understanding what the general majority has to say about something and it differs from place to place. For example, in Canada we vote based on what the smaller candidates are near our electoral district, our voting AFFECTS us indirectly AND directly, because even if we do not vote, we are indirectly complicit in having allowed the larger candidate to bring it a bigger pool of voters.

So, abstaining from voting is actually voting as well.

Let's say...

Candidate 1 wants to legalize marijuana
Candidate 2 wants to legalize homosexual marriage
Candidate 3 wants to increase military budgets

You don't vote at all.

Candidate 1 received 20 votes
Candidate 2 received 25 votes
Candidate 3 received 30 votes

15 people decided not to vote....

Candidate 3 received the most vote and as such will implement increases in military budgets.... which end up directly affecting people in MUSLIM countries (this is how it's been playing out....)

You and the 14 people could have voted... and chosen a lesser alternative

For example if you and 14 people,

Candidate 1 received 35 votes
Candidate 2 received 25
Candidate 3 received 30....

Legalization of marijuana, (now let's be pragmatic) what does the legalization of Marijuana do? It's not just about "smoking" weed.... let's refrain from just think about this, it is about other products that have nothing to do with "smoking it", which become legalized as well. For example.. hemp paper, less destructive in terms of its production, better suited for actual disintegrating into the earth once it's been thrown in the garbage and SUSTAINABLE. What other things? Oh, the decrease in crime rates, smuggling and the "drug" war, that has been a giant producer in profiling and racializing people who are suspected of harboring drugs... I might go on a tangent here, but I hope that the point is being made.

Should the Muslim community choose not to vote, because it's "haram", does it not also make sense that any individuals who refrained from voting also refrain from getting benefits that come from a government that is Kufr as well? Simply because voting is "haram?" Also, just because you choose not to vote, does not mean that the choice you made (i.e not voting) will not have an impact on the outcomes of that voting in the first place. Sure, I might not vote, but if I didn't vote and someone gets elected that is HORRIBLE, it is on me, for having allowed that possibility to begin with, therefore in abstaining from voting, I made it possible for an individual to get into power.
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Misbah0411
05-24-2016, 08:39 PM
And the argument that Muslims should vote for the candidate that will give them something in dunya or they promise to leave them and their mosques alone are deluded and selfish. How many Muslims were decieved by President Obama and voted for him because he had a Muslim name and "he will be good for us here in the U.S." Yet the whole 8 years he fought Islam and Muslims all over the world. That is his legacy. And the Muslims who lived in Dar ul Kufr that voted for him are complicit in that. What disgusts me the most about these Modernist Deviants is you see them appeasing and well pleased with Obama. Just a few months ago, he visited a Mosque in Washington and you could see the pathetic Muslims with their phones out taking pictures of him as he came in and spoke about what Islam is and isn't. Have these people forgot the aggression that he imposed on the Muslims with his drone and airstrikes? How many he killed. Of course they forget because they are living it up in the U.S. They are standing behind him and not in front of him getting abused. Yet on the Day of Judgement, these Muslims who were so eager to take pictures and selfies with him would wish there was a 1000 miles between him and them. Muslims better wake up and learn their Wala and Bara before they get caught up with the allure of this world. Allah says:

"Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone.." (60:4)
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Bhabha
05-24-2016, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
And the argument that Muslims should vote for the candidate that will give them something in dunya or they promise to leave them and their mosques alone are deluded and selfish. How many Muslims were decieved by President Obama and voted for him because he had a Muslim name and "he will be good for us here in the U.S." Yet the whole 8 years he fought Islam and Muslims all over the world. That is his legacy. And the Muslims who lived in Dar ul Kufr that voted for him are complicit in that. What disgusts me the most about these Modernist Deviants is you see them appeasing and well pleased with Obama. Just a few months ago, he visited a Mosque in Washington and you could see the pathetic Muslims with their phones out taking pictures of him as he came in and spoke about what Islam is and isn't. Have these people forgot the aggression that he imposed on the Muslims with his drone and airstrikes? How many he killed. Of course they forget because they are living it up in the U.S. They are standing behind him and not in front of him getting abused. Yet on the Day of Judgement, these Muslims who were so eager to take pictures and selfies with him would wish there was a 1000 miles between him and them. Muslims better wake up and learn their Wala and Bara before they get caught up with the allure of this world. Allah says:

"Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone.." (60:4)
You clearly have no knowledge of how actual politics works, Obama has nothing to do with the fight against Muslims and Islam, as this has been a long standing problem between the West and Muslims before the creation of the United States in the first place. Just because you call something "modernist deviancy" does not add legitimacy in the words you are also spouting, because you are using modernist words in the first place. Before Obama came into power, these missiles and "precision" weapons had already been tested in Iraq and Afghanistan. So to blame it all on Obama is a little counter intuitive.

Secondly, it is like when you donate to an organization. I see a LOT of Muslim organizations asking for donations, but where does that money go? Is it my problem to be preoccupied as to whether they are using this money for self gain? Or for things that are beneficial to the Muslim community? Do not tell me that ALL Muslim organizations actually help Muslims, I have yet to see a single one that actually offered me, a Muslim a helping hand when I asked in times of need. However, it is not our problem what happens after we donate or what happens after we vote, but that we voted with the intention of ameliorating things and not making them worse. What are you going to do as a Muslim in countries like this? Oh wait, also in countries that are Muslim as well. Most, if not all countries engaging in voting practices because not all countries are ruled by a benevolent King who wants the best for their kingdom. That's the reality, is that people want to have a choice and to be involved in putting OR removing someone who is managing their tax money and affecting their daily lives, whether it is the municipal construction of a park in your vicinity or whether it is someone increasing the budget for arms. The reality is that, if you are working in this country, you are paying de facto tax money that goes into the hands of people who are put in place to run and make decisions based on that money. You are responsible for their actions in a way, whether you like it or not, because you pay them to function. Unless of course you don't pay taxes and live off welfare checks, then you are also receiving money from a government you have decided isn't good enough to receive your political decision, but who is good enough to provide you with maintenance. Eitherway, you are in the West and even if you go to the non-West, it's a similar situation. In Saudi, unless you are a Saudi citizen you are not helped by the government and it is a Muslim country, the keeper of Mecca. Similar in other countries.

So what are you going to do? Sit at home.... and do nothing to ameliorate a situation? To change policies, even if just the wording?
Reply

Serinity
05-24-2016, 08:59 PM
so how would we safely establish Shariah Law? I mean, USA and Russia are bombing Syria, and preventing nations from having Shariah Law.

They say they come with peace, but they kill people in order to bring their democracy which is cancer.
Reply

Bhabha
05-24-2016, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Serinity
so how would we safely establish Shariah Law? I mean, USA and Russia are bombing Syria, and preventing nations from having Shariah Law.

They say they come with peace, but they kill people in order to bring their democracy which is cancer.
It isn't democracy that is the cancer. The USA and Russia are bombing Syria because there is an increasing view of intolerance against Muslims that is spiraling like antisemitism spiraled in Europe and erupted in World War II.... this is the cycle, and remember that nothing happens that Allah has not willed it to happen already. We will see increasing problems between countries, because history repeats itself, over and over, or when another "community" pops up and is constructed as threatening in the eyes of the Christian West... however, I do not see another community being constructed as threatening at the moment.

It is not about establishing Sharia law, it is about establishing policies that ALL Muslims in these countries to be governed autonomously, to modify the direction that policies are taking shape and to diminish the xenophobic mentality that cripples relationships between communities. We forget that other communities were also viewed in the same light in Europe for CENTURIES, such as the Jewish communities, the Roma people and the Irish, where the Roma continued to be viewed but are working towards leveling the playing field in terms of politics. If we allow politicians to play with words that feed of Islamophobia because we do not want to participate in politics, we are allowing this cycle to continue.

I also think that Muslims need to remind people who were also victimized by European policies of the atrocities that took shape, such as violent pogroms against the Jewish communities because of increased intolerance... We need to remind people who were colonized, such as South Americans, about the atrocities that happened and continue to happen. Muslims need to unite first, before they attempt to implement ANYTHING worthy of change, but Muslim division is rampant in our communities... from people who are labeled "modernist" to "extremists" to "shia" to "sunni" to etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. If we have a crippled community, it will be easier to divide and conquer. But if the community is strong and united based on similarities as opposed to differences, it will be difficult to overcome this.
Reply

Serinity
05-24-2016, 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
It isn't democracy that is the cancer. The USA and Russia are bombing Syria because there is an increasing view of intolerance against Muslims that is spiraling like antisemitism spiraled in Europe and erupted in World War II.... this is the cycle, and remember that nothing happens that Allah has not willed it to happen already. We will see increasing problems between countries, because history repeats itself, over and over, or when another "community" pops up and is constructed as threatening in the eyes of the Christian West... however, I do not see another community being constructed as threatening at the moment.

It is not about establishing Sharia law, it is about establishing policies that ALL Muslims in these countries to be governed autonomously, to modify the direction that policies are taking shape and to diminish the xenophobic mentality that cripples relationships between communities. We forget that other communities were also viewed in the same light in Europe for CENTURIES, such as the Jewish communities, the Roma people and the Irish, where the Roma continued to be viewed but are working towards leveling the playing field in terms of politics. If we allow politicians to play with words that feed of Islamophobia because we do not want to participate in politics, we are allowing this cycle to continue.
So spreading policies that are Islamic as much as possible, in which will end with the whole Shariah Law being implemented?
Reply

Bhabha
05-24-2016, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Serinity
So spreading policies that are Islamic as much as possible, in which will end with the whole Shariah Law being implemented?
What would be the final purpose of imposing Sharia? Would it be to ameliorate the relationship between communities or would it be for the purposes of imposing religious rulings on people who do not follow Islam? Because we have no right to impose religious rulings on ANYONE, this would be taking the same path that the Roman empire took through inquisitions.

The Shariah laws that were imposed throughout the Islamic empires allowed communities to have their own autonomous rulings, but worked to implement an overarching design, for example it did not implement on women that the wearing of the hijab was compulsory, but that the behavior of people in public spaces would not be one that would go against Islamic teachings in order that the public sphere would be one where all religions felt safe and comfortable. Proper behavior between man and woman for example does NOT go against the teachings of other religions. To demand that ALL women of all religions wear hijab is to impose a view that is more internal to that person, such as also asking women to remove their hijab. However, if there was a consensus on clothing that would be appropriate for all to wear and would not cause someone else to feel uncomfortable, this is important, for example making the wearing of short shorts not allowed in public spaces, or kissing in public spaces, or holding hands with someone that is not your spouse. The same thing could be made of talking about each others religions, to maintain a level of harmony, neither Muslim, nor Christian, nor Jew, nor Hindu should discuss the religion of others in a derogatory way, as this would cause tensions.

Like these kind of rulings, for example could be slowly implemented to mediate the relationships between people. For example, as a Muslim political leader in a community, they could work towards increasing prayer spaces for ALL religions, whether it be Muslims, Christians, Catholics. So that those who are not Muslim can see that even a Muslim can watch for their best interest and protect their right to religious freedom. As a Muslim political leader, increase for example financial help to both Halal and Kosher restaurants and regions that perhaps designate regions that could be free from alcohol in order to allow for a safe environment. As a Muslim leader, perhaps also work towards modifying bathroom spaces that could implement nifty showers for people to be in whudu, it would be beneficial to ALL people who would want to clean themselves after going to the restrooms. To encourage cleanliness.

Policies need to start soft, small and work towards making spaces of communication, NOT be directed towards managing the life of people, but towards managing the communication and relationships so that society could be fruitful and not resentful.
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Misbah0411
05-24-2016, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
You clearly have no knowledge of how actual politics works, Obama has nothing to do with the fight against Muslims and Islam, as this has been a long standing problem between the West and Muslims before the creation of the United States in the first place. Just because you call something "modernist deviancy" does not add legitimacy in the words you are also spouting, because you are using modernist words in the first place. Before Obama came into power, these missiles and "precision" weapons had already been tested in Iraq and Afghanistan. So to blame it all on Obama is a little counter intuitive.
I know exactly how politics works. And Obama is just one of the continuing line of Presidents who fight Islam and Muslims. Bush before him also. It is his policy to continue the war. What's the matter I offended you because of your love for Obama? I gave you in my first post in this discussion how the greatest generation of Muslims selected their leader. You came out and said that voting is permissible and saying differently is "bidah". In another thread you said that women cannot be religious leaders but can be political leaders. Where is your evidence? I find it hard that you want to do a thesis for a doctoral degree with evidences but talk through your whims and desires when it comes to Islam. Produce your proof if you speak the truth.
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Misbah0411
05-24-2016, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
What would be the final purpose of imposing Sharia? Would it be to ameliorate the relationship between communities or would it be for the purposes of imposing religious rulings on people who do not follow Islam? Because we have no right to impose religious rulings on ANYONE, this would be taking the same path that the Roman empire took through inquisitions.
So are you saying there is no purpose to implementing Shariah Law in this day and age?
Reply

Zafran
05-25-2016, 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
So are you saying there is no purpose to implementing Shariah Law in this day and age?
Like Isis?
Reply

Zafran
05-25-2016, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
And the argument that Muslims should vote for the candidate that will give them something in dunya or they promise to leave them and their mosques alone are deluded and selfish. How many Muslims were decieved by President Obama and voted for him because he had a Muslim name and "he will be good for us here in the U.S." Yet the whole 8 years he fought Islam and Muslims all over the world. That is his legacy. And the Muslims who lived in Dar ul Kufr that voted for him are complicit in that. What disgusts me the most about these Modernist Deviants is you see them appeasing and well pleased with Obama. Just a few months ago, he visited a Mosque in Washington and you could see the pathetic Muslims with their phones out taking pictures of him as he came in and spoke about what Islam is and isn't. Have these people forgot the aggression that he imposed on the Muslims with his drone and airstrikes? How many he killed. Of course they forget because they are living it up in the U.S. They are standing behind him and not in front of him getting abused. Yet on the Day of Judgement, these Muslims who were so eager to take pictures and selfies with him would wish there was a 1000 miles between him and them. Muslims better wake up and learn their Wala and Bara before they get caught up with the allure of this world. Allah says:

"Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone.." (60:4)
You shouldn't be living in the US in the first place - If you hate it so much you need to leave.
Reply

Misbah0411
05-25-2016, 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Like Isis?
No like what all Muslims should be striving to establish. Are you also like those who say Shariah isn't necessary anymore?
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Misbah0411
05-25-2016, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
You shouldn't be living in the US in the first place - If you hate it so much you need to leave.
I was born here and am a revert. Where would I go? Why do you love Dar ul Kufr so much? Did your parents make hijrah to that land?
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Zafran
05-25-2016, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
I was born here and am a revert. Where would I go? Why do you love Dar ul Kufr so much? Did your parents make hijrah to that land?
You claim to live in "dar al kufr" - so if you find yourself in Dar al Kufr where is Dal al Salam? Isnt that where your meant to make Hijra to?
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Zafran
05-25-2016, 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
No like what all Muslims should be striving to establish. Are you also like those who say Shariah isn't necessary anymore?
What type of shariah are we trying to establish exactly?
Reply

muslimah_B
05-25-2016, 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
I got news for you they are all against Muslims. Some show it more than others. If you want to deceive yourself in thinking otherwise then be deluded. Allah knows best what is the nature of the disbeliever when He made the general statement:

120. Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the Guidance of Allah (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) that is the (only) Guidance. And if you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) were to follow their (Jews and Christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur'an), then you would have against Allah neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper. (Surah Baqarah)



Did you not read when i said the lesser of two evils, ie voting for the one who would cause the least harm or no harm to the muslims. If both parties would be of no benifit to the muslims then ofcorse you dont vote, but if there is benifit in voting then you are allowed to.
It only becomes haram if the person you are voting for openly claims himself against islam & will make life harder for muslims, or wish to openly allow i.e homosexuality, drugs etc

I would rather the person to be in power who doesnt infringe on my rights to wear what i please or to be able to practice my religion freely.
How would you like it if new people in power suddenly brought out a law against women wearing niqab and men wearing toppe or turban, shutting down of masjids, stopping halal meat and your vote could have stopped these people coming into power and helped benifit the muslims.

if you dont want to vote that is your choice, im not saying you have to it is your choice, but dont make or say it is haram when it is allowed under certain circumstances and imply that those who do vote or want to are kufr or want to follow kufr or have kufr beliefs.
I dont follow their beliefs and never will, i follow the laws of the country as long as it does not go against the laws of Allah, which again have certain circumstances where the grey areas are filled in by the scholars such as :-

paying taxes to the government(no choice)
You want a car you need insurance to drive it on the roads legally, among other things

https://islamqa.info/en/239647

Ofcorse i want sharia law it is Allahs law and i will forever defend it,
but in the west we are NOT the majority we are the MINORITY, by which means it cannot be implemented..
Even then if sharia was implemented, the belief in Allah and emaan needs to be established first, then the laws and punishments come into place.
For those not muslim they are allowed to practise their religion, but must adhere to certain rules. This wont happen overnight and cannot impose our religion on other people
If sharia is that important to you then call those "western kufr" to islam in the best of manners and ways, help the numbers of believers rise and bring them to the truth of islam

https://islamqa.info/en/110455

https://islamqa.info/en/3062

https://islamqa.info/en/59879
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Misbah0411
05-25-2016, 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
You claim to live in "dar al kufr" - so if you find yourself in Dar al Kufr where is Dal al Salam? Isnt that where your meant to make Hijra to?
Your're in Dar ul Kufr yourself in case you are confused or deluded. I answered your question. Now answer mine. Did your parents make hijrah to Dar ul Kufr?
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Misbah0411
05-25-2016, 01:13 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
What type of shariah are we trying to establish exactly?
There is only one Shariah. The Law of Allah according to the Quran and Sunnah.
Reply

Zafran
05-25-2016, 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
Your're in Dar ul Kufr yourself in case you are confused or deluded. I answered your question. Now answer mine. Did your parents make hijrah to Dar ul Kufr?
I'm not in Dar al Kufr so I dont need to make Hijra - I can live under shariah exactly where I am. You on other hand seem to be claiming to establish Shariah yet you dont know what it is?
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Zafran
05-25-2016, 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
There is only one Shariah. The Law of Allah according to the Quran and Sunnah.
Great and can you practice that where you live? If not what can you not practice?
Reply

Misbah0411
05-25-2016, 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by muslimah_B
It only becomes haram if the person you are voting for openly claims himself against islam & will make life harder for muslims, or wish to openly allow i.e homosexuality, drugs etc

I would rather the person to be in power who doesnt infringe on my rights to wear what i please or to be able to practice my religion freely.
How would you like it if new people in power suddenly brought out a law against women wearing niqab and men wearing toppe or turban, shutting down of masjids, stopping halal meat and your vote could have stopped these people coming into power and helped benifit the muslims.


paying taxes to the government(no choice)
No, he doesn't have to proclaim that he is against Islam because all politicians speak out the side of their mouths. We go by his actions unless you choose to be willfully ignorant of how they fight Islam and Muslims.

You would rather that politician not infringe on your rights but be oblivious to those same rights he is crushing with his military on Muslims in their own lands. But just as long as your life is safe, its all good. No point in despising him since he left you alone.

You already have countries in Europe trying to impose bans on niqab and other restrictions.

Paying for taxes and insurance is forced upon us and is the moral responsibility of the legislator. Voting is voluntary.
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Misbah0411
05-25-2016, 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
I'm not in Dar al Kufr so I dont need to make Hijra - I can live under shariah exactly where I am. You on other hand seem to be claiming to establish Shariah yet you dont know what it is?
Your location says UK. Might want to change that so as not to be deceitful. No I am not claiming to be establishing Shariah. The topic in this thread, "Is voting haram" I am claiming that all legislation belongs to Allah. And that is what Muslims should yearn for and put aside secular law and have loyalty Allah for what He has revealed. What is Shariah to you?
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Zafran
05-25-2016, 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
Your location says UK. Might want to change that so as not to be deceitful. No I am not claiming to be establishing Shariah. The topic in this thread, "Is voting haram" I am claiming that all legislation belongs to Allah. And that is what Muslims should yearn for and put aside secular law and have loyalty Allah for what He has revealed. What is Shariah to you?
Shariah has 5 Maqasids

1- protection to the deen
2 - Sancity of life
3 - protection of property
4 - protection of the intellect
5 - protection to your honour/family.

All being met in the UK - possibly better then most of the mid east combined.

seculer laws like traffic laws, gun laws, etc etc??

No voting isnt haram - the first and the third caliph were pretty much voted in and accepted by the people - every leader needs to keep in power and rule.
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Scimitar
05-25-2016, 01:52 AM
I'd vote, if I thought it would help. When a million man march on the streets of London couldn't persuade the Prime Minister to avoid conflict - that's when I decided enough was enough.

Halal or haram is a side issue for me - I have the choice, and I choose not to vote. Best part is, me not voting, is completely halal - that's the safe option. Just in case it all went over your tiny minds. :D

Scimi
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muslimah_B
05-25-2016, 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
No, he doesn't have to proclaim that he is against Islam because all politicians speak out the side of their mouths. We go by his actions unless you choose to be willfully ignorant of how they fight Islam and Muslims.

You would rather that politician not infringe on your rights but be oblivious to those same rights he is crushing with his military on Muslims in their own lands. But just as long as your life is safe, its all good. No point in despising him since he left you alone.

You already have countries in Europe trying to impose bans on niqab and other restrictions.

Paying for taxes and insurance is forced upon us and is the moral responsibility of the legislator. Voting is voluntary.
Brother its like you ignore half of my post and only reply to what you can make an argument out of,
in sha Allah your not doing this on purpose and are actually reading what im writing and not picking and choosing what to reply to

We all know politicians speak out their backside, some are more upfront with their views some arent so as I said if they out rightly are implying they will make the life of muslims harder or against islam IT IS ABSOLUTELY HARAM TO VOTE FOR THAT PERSON. If voting for another person will lessen hardships on muslims etc then it is allowed to vote for them as it will benifit the muslims.
If there is no benifit or both are evil then it is HARAM to vote
I dont know how much more simpler i can make that

How dare you imply that i dont care about the rights of other brothers and sisters in the world, but im not allowed to care for my own sake or those Muslims in the country i live in neither right?
Just because someone voted for someone doesnt means they like them or their views and policies, they are trying to prevent a greater evil by voting for the lesser evil !!!!!!
If you dont want to vote ever then dont, but dont make what is permissable in certain circumstances haram, when i gave you clear evidences for this

If you work or take benifits/welfare you pay taxes on it, and those taxes go towards military expenses, but you know just as long as you have a job and food to eat right you dont mind those taxes paying for bombs, drones and ground troops ?
(How much sense does your argument have like honestly, do you just enjoy being argumentative for the sake of arguing, making childish statements)

"Oh because i am thinking about myself and muslims of the country im living in, i dont care about the rest of the muslims over the world, let me just take a blind eye to what hes doing to them <<< are you serious brother with these kind of statements im actually quite insulted by that statement

Even with giving charity you have make sure you and your family are provided for first, then you help others. (This is thinking about yourself also before others)
You have to help yourself first before you can help others
Reply

azc
05-25-2016, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
One of the nullifiers of Islam is: Supporting and
assisting the disbelievers against the Muslims. The proof for this is Allah's statement:

51. O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust). Surah Maidah
Does your fatwa of kufr apply on all these Muslim countries.?
Reply

azc
05-25-2016, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
This is why the kuffar use a double standard and are the biggest hypocrites when they talk about "freedom and Democracy" and giving the people the right to vote. Algeria had elections in the 90's and the people voted for Shariah and also in Egypt just a few years ago with Morsi coming into power only for disbelievers hating the decision of the people and turning a blind eye when the military took over by force the "will of the People". Where was the outrage from the U.S.? Nothing. Like I said before, the disbelievers hate Islam and will undermine it covertly and fight it overtly.
Your views are self contradictory.

In post #22 you quoted verse of Quran whereby Muslims are prohibited to not make kuffar as our friends and in this post your complaing of their double standard. How should we expect friendly response from kuffar then.?
Reply

Bhabha
05-25-2016, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
Your're in Dar ul Kufr yourself in case you are confused or deluded. I answered your question. Now answer mine. Did your parents make hijrah to Dar ul Kufr?
I said I wasn't going to come back in here, but.... sometimes...You just gotta.
Sharia law is not legally implemented ANYWHERE. Saudi arabia, neither in Qatar, neither in UAE, neither in Egypt, Lebanon, etc. where all of these Muslim countries are. What is the reason that Europe has gone down the road it has on abusing the rights of Muslim women? Because of Muslims like you, who say that involvement in politics is HARAM in the first place. If more Muslims had been involved in changing the way that policies are made, structured and implemented, perhaps things would not be like this. But reality check, that's not the case. A lot of people would rather curl up and let others get their hands dirty in politics and then complain, right?

Who fled to a Christian empire when he was being persecuted? Our dear Prophet took refuge with a CHRISTIAN king. What is going on now? Aren't a LOT of Muslims fleeing to Christian countries for protection from people who have deluded themselves to implementing intolerance, as opposed to Allah's word?

If you want to implement Shariah, do it in your own home, follow Shariah like other Muslims should and ensure that your home is a sanctuary for it and in your behavior with other people. If you don't like the West, like someone else said here, move somewhere else, but I don't think that other countries would be quite so fitting. Also, FYI in some countries it is a legal requirement to vote as part of your citizenship status. You are by law, required to vote, otherwise you are subject to a fine.
Reply

Bhabha
05-25-2016, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
So are you saying there is no purpose to implementing Shariah Law in this day and age?
Do you not read what people write? I said what is the final purpose of implementing the Shariah? I will spell it out for you.

If SHARIA is one that is to impose POLICIES of INTOLERANCE for other religions

OR SHARIA to build harmony and create communication, i.e co-existence between people

Me thinks, you think about Sharia in a particular way.... as one that is xenophobic as opposed to a harmonious co-existence... I prefer a harmonious co-existence, so policies should reflect that and not xenophobia..

^o)
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Cpt.America
05-25-2016, 04:25 AM
Voting is not haram.

After some consultation this is my consensus.
Reply

Umar Ibn Farooq
05-25-2016, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by Cpt.America
Voting is not haram.

After some consultation this is my consensus.
I disagree
Reply

Umar Ibn Farooq
05-25-2016, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
There isn't enough Muslims to change the forms of governments in Western Countries. Secondly, how many who call themselves Muslims would even vote to establish Shariah where they live. From the commentators on this forum, it is likely discouraging.
May Allah bless you.
Reply

azc
12-21-2016, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
NO ITS NOT. How do you think the first caliphs were ELECTED!? Whoever keeps saying it's haram is doing bidah
He was elected by allegiance. Some people claim that democracy or election is haram and kufr
Reply

Scimitar
12-21-2016, 03:48 PM
Democracy is haraam?

Since when?

The first khaliphs were chosen via vote.

Voting is not haraam.

But I don't vote.

As not voting is not haraam either.

And in todays world, the impression we get is that we are either voting for the left (liberal) wing or the right (conservative) wing.

Most can't see past those two wings... and they fail to realise, they are both attached to the same bird.

I don't believe in voting in today's world.

I mean, I still find pencils in ballot booths.... I used a pen once and was told, "you must use the pencil provided"... why? so they can rub out my vote and pencil in someone for me instead?

I mean, no one is that stupid, are they?

Oh wait, did I mention ballot box scandals?

That one is a thread on its own.

Scim
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azc
12-21-2016, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Serinity
I'm honestly confused. But voting with the intention to promote kufr, is haram, definitely, and is kufr.Instead of spreading our opinions lets consult the scholars, and see what they say. Cuz speaking without knowledge is highly reprimanded.. afaik. May Allah SWT forgive me if I said any wrong. Ameen. Allahu alam.
what I have seen is that only salafi scholars declare it haram.
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azc
12-21-2016, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Anokha
Vote to a haraami is haraam of-course...Note: Haraami means no abuse it means a man who eat speak and listen to haraam things.. etc etc
you mean people must have complete bio data of every candidate before voting...
Reply

azc
12-21-2016, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by muslimah_B
You are allowed to vote if by voting it helps or aids muslims in anyway, or by voting stops someone who is against islam/muslims from getting into power.If you dont want to vote then you don't have to, but dont call it bidah or haram as its not in certain circumstances https://islamqa.info/en/3062https://islamqa.info/en/111898https://islamqa.info/en/9911
i think your opinion is good
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azc
12-21-2016, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
Interesting...Now that it is asked, I feel voting is not, ut the campaigning for votes is..What do you think?:peace:
why do you separate voting and campaign..?
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azc
12-21-2016, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah0411
From the examples of the Rightly Guided Khalifah and further on, there was no mass general election where people would go into voting booths and cast ballots to choose their candidate. The people of influence in the society would be the ones who would make the determination as who would be the next Khalifah. Then the general masses would follow suit once they arrived at a decision. And in the beginning, whoever Medina chose, then rest of the towns and provinces would follow suit with what is called the bai'ah (pledge). Those of the people of influence would directly pledge to the newly appointed leader and the general masses in the rest of the territories would give the bai'ah to his appointed governors. Abu Bakr's appointment came in the courtyard of Sa'ad ibn Ubaadah when Umar impetuously grabbed Abu Bakr's hand and made bai'ah to squash any fitnah that was going to occur. The others of the Ansar followed afterwards. Umar was chosen by Abu Bakr on his deathbed. Uthman was chosen though shura (council) of six potential candidates selected by Umar. As you can see, none of this was the decision of the general masses. When the people of influence made their decision, then the common people obeyed. Lastly and more importantly, all of these people (those appointed and those who made the decision) were Muslims and implemented Shariah, the Law of Allah. They were not participating to establish or keep in place man-made laws. This is kufr. Voting in the political process of the disbelievers suggests that you would rather abide by that law, be complicit in perpetuating that law, are pleased with that law. This is kufr. Democracy is the will of the people. Not the Will of Allah. Muslims better get their affairs in order and stop imitating the disbelievers in their politics. Also, when a Muslim votes like many of them have done with Western candidates who eventually got elected, then those Muslims are complicit with whatever of warfare and oppression that those leaders subject the Muslims around the world. Also, of the evil laws they implement like allowing gay marriage. Let that be on your conscious. You assisted in putting them there with your vote. You suffer the consequences on the Day of Judgement for your participation in that political process. And Allah Knows Best
so you think that accepting man made laws is kufr...?
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Scimitar
12-21-2016, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
[/snip]...

...I mean, I still find pencils in ballot booths.... I used a pen once and was told, "you must use the pencil provided"... why? so they can rub out my vote and pencil in someone for me instead?

I mean, no one is that stupid, are they?

Oh wait, did I mention ballot box scandals?

That one is a thread on its own.

Scim
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37845164 Oh boy oh boy...

Originally Posted by BBC
People could get the choice of a pen as well as a pencil when they go to vote, after fraud fears at the EU referendum.
Originally Posted by BBC
The Electoral Commission received "almost 200 calls" from voters worried about using a pencil on 23 June.

Lib Dem Lord Rennard has asked the government if it would provide "special ballot pens" instead of pencils.

And the Electoral Commission says it is looking at "alternatives to providing pencils for voters in polling stations which could improve confidence".

The issue of using pencils to vote became an issue on social media for people voting in June's referendum who feared ballot papers filled out in pencil could be rubbed out and changed, leading the hashtag #usepens to gain traction on Twitter.
Meanwhile, the Govt agencies contact China to find pens that can have their marks erased... pencil or pen, your vote aint worth sheeeeeet.

Except, maybe some extra points on your experian/equifax credit rating. LOL. And let's face it. That just promotes the haraam of riba.

Scimi
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azc
12-21-2016, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Cpt.America
Caliphs were not necessarily elected on the basis of a democratic general opinion.There however were Shura councils involved that reached a consensus on the who the Caliph would be.
yes, and concept of shura was given by Hz umar :RA:
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Scimitar
12-21-2016, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by azc
yes, and concept of shura was given by Hz umar :RA:
That didn't last long, only a few generations.

After that, we entered the rule of Kings, instead of justly chosen Khaliphs. Now, we're in the time of Tyrants.

Voting? what difference does it really make when the whole charade is a circus act?

Scimi
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Scimitar
12-21-2016, 04:11 PM
A list of notable elections involving voter fraud or procedural challenge

This is a list of notable elections involving accusations of direct voter fraud or in which the results were procedurally contested, extensively protested, or recognized as fraudulent by a reliable international organization.



SAUCE

Notice something?

The frequency by which the votes are contested increase in the latter years.

Scimi
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azc
12-21-2016, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
That didn't last long, only a few generations.After that, we entered the rule of Kings, instead of justly chosen Khaliphs. Now, we're in the time of Tyrants.Voting? what difference does it really make when the whole charade is a circus act?Scimi
yes, and we can observe what is happening Muslim countries either they are kings or dictators
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Scimitar
12-21-2016, 04:47 PM
Forget voting, prepare for the Imaam.

That's the angle I'm playing out.

And Allah knows best.

Scimi
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azc
12-21-2016, 05:48 PM
^.yes, imam is the most important part of our life
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AHMED PATEL
12-22-2016, 02:12 PM
everyone wants a fatwa nowadays ,it does make us look like aliens once again,a fatwa for everything

our wise elder ulema ..if you vote dont criticise those that dont
if you dont vote..dont criticise those that do..
in fact why tell anyone,its your own business
and like much else,between you and allah,no one else
Reply

azc
12-22-2016, 04:05 PM
Voting is neither haram nor is obligatory.
Reply

azc
12-22-2016, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED PATEL
everyone wants a fatwa nowadays ,it does make us look like aliens once again,a fatwa for everythingour wise elder ulema ..if you vote dont criticise those that dontif you dont vote..dont criticise those that do..in fact why tell anyone,its your own businessand like much else,between you and allah,no one else
We should see what is good for us and our Muslims society especially if we live in a non Muslim country
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greenhill
12-22-2016, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by azc
why do you separate voting and campaign..?
…because I remember reading somewhere that the best man for the job is one who is able to do it (but perhaps shy to actually offer) and not one who actively seeks the post. So, when someone actively 'campaigns' to seek votes is often not because of the task at hand that needs to be done 'properly', but more for the power it wields.. (so effect, the campaigning part often sells lots of untruths).


:peace:
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azc
12-23-2016, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by greenhill
…because I remember reading somewhere that the best man for the job is one who is able to do it (but perhaps shy to actually offer) and not one who actively seeks the post. So, when someone actively 'campaigns' to seek votes is often not because of the task at hand that needs to be done 'properly', but more for the power it wields.. (so effect, the campaigning part often sells lots of untruths).:peace:
valid point though but practically not possible until the iislamization of whole electoral system is done...
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