Stem cell research

[EgyptPrincess]

Salaams,

From Googling online is would seem that this topic is still in debate amongst the ulema so I wanted to just ask for your opinions and growing organs in the lab. Are you for or against it?

So a child needs a heart transplant and he can just get one created in the lab for him from stem cells.

Now for a bit of fantasy although not too far in the future, neuroprosthetics. Implanting computer chips in our brains to make them more powerful. Human memory isn't fantastic, walk into a room and spend 30 seconds looking at everything and then walk out of the room and try to remember where everything was placed. It's pretty difficult. Imagine being able to commit those memories to a chip in your brain and recall them at any given time? Sounds like sci-fi at the moment but it's the future :D

Thoughts? Haram, halal, ethically wrong etc.

[Serinity]

:salam:

Read this: https://islamqa.info/en/108125

From the fatwa, it is haram to intentionally do an abortion, and some more..

And it is haram to use it as commercial gain.

It is best that we consult the Shariah etc. rather than spread opinions without knowledge.

But I am pretty sure it is haram to intentionally donate a sperm and an egg to obtain stemcells from.

Playing with life ain't no joke.
But in any case, I wouldn't rely my brain on a chip.
And Allah SWT knows best.

[EgyptPrincess]

:salam:

Read this: https://islamqa.info/en/108125

From the fatwa, it is haram to intentionally do an abortion, and some more..

And it is haram to use it as commercial gain.

It is best that we consult the Shariah etc. rather than spread opinions without knowledge.

But I am pretty sure it is haram to intentionally donate a sperm and an egg to obtain stemcells from.

Playing with life ain't no joke.
But in any case, I wouldn't rely my brain on a chip.
And Allah SWT knows best.

We're not talking about abortions... We're talking about growing organs in labs to replace faulty organs and stem cells do not come from sperm. They can be from bones, embryos and many others.

And can you please stop telling me to "spread opinions without knowledge" I am merely asking what people think of the idea as there is no ruling on it yet.

[Cpt.America]

Well there have been recent breakthroughs in regressing differentiated (adult) cells into their progenitor stages (induced pluripotent stem cells). Nothing wrong with that.

Only matter of issue comes from embryonic stem cell research. Which is research into stem cells before differentiation.

But that goes into the topic of abortion instead, and Islamically at what stage the embryo is considered to have a soul (the Ruh is blown into it within the 4th week)

Any suggestion of brain to chip interface that advanced is at least a lifetime off from being possible and even then unlikely to ever be possible.

Recent advances in neural implants allow for a computer to record neural impulses and that's about it really.
A team in Ohio implanted a chip in the primary motor cortex to record neural impulses in a paraplegic man. After some time they were able to decide what signals were meant for contraction of which muscle groups, and have been now able to remotely stimulate the muscles with external electrical stimulation based off the data the chip in the brain outputs. A sort of bypass instead of having to go through the damaged nerves.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/14...rain-chip.html

As exciting as all of this is, and the implications it has towards helping the disabled of course, it also highlights how rudimentary our knowledge is.

We are only reading impulses and trying to figure out what they correspond to. Motor and sensory output/input is more simple in this sense than what you are suggesting.

Up until now we still have no real idea of how memory is stored or how it works, (although we do know what areas of the brain are responsible for it)

A neural interface that allows us to access and record data on the fly in a perfect meld of biological and synthetic is just way too far beyond us currently and probably ever.

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[Cpt.America]

Admittedly it would be pretty cool, to insta download data to
the brain. I just don't believe that will ever happen though. It seems too far off a difference from what makes us human innit?
InshaaAllah in Jannah we'll have perfect memories and vastly improved biology
But I can't really expect anything like that in this dunya.
In this dunya the best we can do are find cures for disorders and diseases and we won't really go beyond that, although finding cures is wonderful in itself IMHO

There is definitely a community who are really hoping for and expecting this Singularity that you describe though.

I think the speculation is fun and all and makes for some great scifi stories but that it will ultimately be limited to that

[EgyptPrincess]

Well there have been recent breakthroughs in regressing differentiated (adult) cells into their progenitor stages (induced pluripotent stem cells). Nothing wrong with that.

Only matter of issue comes from embryonic stem cell research. Which is research into stem cells before differentiation.

But that goes into the topic of abortion instead, and Islamically at what stage the embryo is considered to have a soul (the Ruh is blown into it within the 4th week)

Any suggestion of brain to chip interface that advanced is at least a lifetime off from being possible and even then unlikely to ever be possible.

Recent advances in neural implants allow for a computer to record neural impulses and that's about it really.
A team in Ohio implanted a chip in the primary motor cortex to record neural impulses in a paraplegic man. After some time they were able to decide what signals were meant for contraction of which muscle groups, and have been now able to remotely stimulate the muscles with external electrical stimulation based off the data the chip in the brain outputs. A sort of bypass instead of having to go through the damaged nerves.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/14...rain-chip.html

As exciting as all of this is, and the implications it has towards helping the disabled of course, it also highlights how rudimentary our knowledge is.

We are only reading impulses and trying to figure out what they correspond to. Motor and sensory output/input is more simple in this sense than what you are suggesting.

Up until now we still have no real idea of how memory is stored or how it works, (although we do know what areas of the brain are responsible for it)

A neural interface that allows us to access and record data on the fly in a perfect meld of biological and synthetic is just way too far beyond us currently and probably ever.

I agree the computer chip implants are far in the future but the exponential growth in scientific technology means I think we'll be seeing this kind of thing not impossible in our lifetimes.

[EgyptPrincess]

Admittedly it would be pretty cool, to insta download data to
the brain. I just don't believe that will ever happen though. It seems too far off a difference from what makes us human innit?
InshaaAllah in Jannah we'll have perfect memories and vastly improved biology
But I can't really expect anything like that in this dunya.
In this dunya the best we can do are find cures for disorders and diseases and we won't really go beyond that, although finding cures is wonderful in itself IMHO

There is definitely a community who are really hoping for and expecting this Singularity that you describe though.

I think the speculation is fun and all and makes for some great scifi stories but that it will ultimately be limited to that

What about growing organs in the lab so when someone needs a transplant they can get one grow for them. Would you agree with this? I know a lot of people use the term "stop trying to play god" when we talk about stem cells because we are literally changing and manipulating things on a molecular level

[Cpt.America]

What about growing organs in the lab so when someone needs a transplant they can get one grow for them. Would you agree with this? I know a lot of people use the term "stop trying to play god" when we talk about stem cells because we are literally changing and manipulating things on a molecular level

Well of course I agree with this.
Any new medicine to help someone who is sick is a good thing.
Its not as though the organs you are speaking of are foreign organs (one body to another) the way that organ transplants work now (which must be screened for genetic comparability prior, and even then have a chance of being rejected by the body)
The organs you are speaking of are grown from the donors own cells.

There has been progress in 3D printing hearts and livers. Which is pretty legit.
Pretty far off from wholly functioning organs,
but if they can help a sick person become well, (through Allah's mercy of course) that is nothing to denounce.

Islam has lead the way in scientific, medical, and mathematical breakthroughs because of the religion, not despite it.
The Muslims have stagnated because we no longer care about our Islam.

to a Muslim, we would never try to "play God" by healing someone.
And expanding knowledge in the sciences and arts is not antithetical to Islam, quite the opposite.

That being said, the importance is what we intend to use our science for and how we do.
For example experiments conducted by Johns Hopkins and other medical institutions in the earlier days, where black people were tortured/experimented on and mentally ill children were lobotomized, is definitely not halal.

[Serinity]

We're not talking about abortions... We're talking about growing organs in labs to replace faulty organs and stem cells do not come from sperm. They can be from bones, embryos and many others.

And can you please stop telling me to "spread opinions without knowledge" I am merely asking what people think of the idea as there is no ruling on it yet.

I know stemcells don't come from sperm, but by sperm and egg coming together, and forming a zygote, etc. you know the drill.

[Serinity]

On what level are we susceptible to falling into the changing the creation of Allah SWT which is obviously haram?

I mean, would cloning be haram?

[Cpt.America]

I know stemcells don't come from sperm, but by sperm and egg coming together, and forming a zygote, etc. you know the drill.

yes, but there are two types of stem cells that are being used for research.
OP was talking about regressing adult cells in adults to their previous stemcell forms.
Not embryonic stem cells.

[Serinity]

yes, but there are two types of stem cells that are being used for research.
OP was talking about regressing adult cells in adults to their previous stemcell forms.
Not embryonic stem cells.

I see. This sounds similar to cloning, (the technique used is probably similar to that of cloning) but afaik, ain't cloning haram? To what extent could we go and what is the definition used by scholars and what does it mean to change the creation of Allah SWT?

Ultimately, whatever we come up with, everything lies in the Mercy and will of Allah SWT. Obviously as Muslims we know nothing can happen except by the will of Allah SWT.

Btw, could we use this to try to develop a 'regenerative' power? Like being able to rengenerate wounds and stuff like that.. Lost arms?

[EgyptPrincess]

I know stemcells don't come from sperm, but by sperm and egg coming together, and forming a zygote, etc. you know the drill.

You don't only get them that way. The best cells are embryonic but you can use cells from bone marrow, blood, teeth or anything.

The reason embryonic cells are the best is because they can be made into any type of cell.

[Serinity]

You don't only get them that way. The best cells are embryonic but you can use cells from bone marrow, blood, teeth or anything.

The reason embryonic cells are the best is because they can be made into any type of cell.

From the little knowledge I remember that adult stemcells are specialised as such can only form into certain types.

But how would one know, whether to make an arm or a lung? how do we know what direction to take? Obviously it is Allah SWT that creates it, we only do the plug and play part, kinda thing.

[Cpt.America]

I see. This sounds similar to cloning, (the technique used is probably similar to that of cloning) but afaik, ain't cloning haram? To what extent could we go and what is the definition used by scholars and what does it mean to change the creation of Allah SWT?

The current process of cloning involves copying a full genetic template, DNA, and implanting it in an evacuated ovum.
I cannot honestly say whether this is haram or not as an ovum is not an embryo. I do not recall of the ovum can be evacuated as is, or it must be evacuated after fertilization.
Anyway I don't see any point in cloning.
It is not as if you are making an exact copy of yourself or some soulless body for organ transplantations. You are creating a twin.
which is rather purposeless.

Identical twins, are naturally occurring clones created by Allah. They have the same exact DNA. Pretty cool right?

The process for forcing a cell to go backwards into its stemcell state doesn't use any of the same mechanisms as cloning anyway.
The changes are induced chemically for the most part.

[Serinity]

The current process of cloning involves copying a full genetic template, DNA, and implanting it in an evacuated ovum.
I cannot honestly say whether this is haram or not as an ovum is not an embryo. I do not recall of the ovum can be evacuated as is, or it must be evacuated after fertilization.
Anyway I don't see any point in cloning.
It is not as if you are making an exact copy of yourself or some soulless body for organ transplantations. You are creating a twin.
which is rather purposeless.

Identical twins, are naturally occurring clones created by Allah. They have the same exact DNA. Pretty cool right?

The process for forcing a cell to go backwards into its stemcell state doesn't use any of the same mechanisms as cloning anyway.
The changes are induced chemically for the most part.

The major question is, how would we know what direction it will be created as? Like would it be created as a leg, arm, etc?

[EgyptPrincess]

Like being able to rengenerate wounds and stuff like that.. Lost arms?

Now you're on my wave length! haha.

Starfish and some octopus can regenerate their limbs. Also there is a jellyfish that is immortal to old age and can never die unless eaten or it dies from a disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_dohrnii

Imagine you lose an arm in an accident and it just grows back xD

[Cpt.America]

From the little knowledge I remember that adult stemcells are specialised as such can only form into certain types.

But how would one know, whether to make an arm or a lung? how do we know what direction to take? Obviously it is Allah SWT that creates it, we only do the plug and play part, kinda thing.

it depends on the injury.

If someone has blood cancer, and the stem cells in their bone marrow are destroyed, if you can take one of their blood cells and turn it into a stem cell and implant it into their bone marrow, it can grow to replace the destroyed cells.

If someone has a nerve injury, spinal cord damage, etc. if you can take neuron stem cells and have them grow back the damaged tissue they would no longer be injured

etc.

Its not as if you're actually creating whole organs in the lab with stem cells. A single organ requires many different types of cells so it would not be feasible

[EgyptPrincess]

Its not as if you're actually creating whole organs in the lab with stem cells. A single organ requires many different types of cells so it would not be feasible

It is possible, even the topic of 3D printing organs has been spoken about. http://www.iflscience.com/health-and...own-laboratory

[Cpt.America]

It is possible, even the topic of 3D printing organs has been spoken about. http://www.iflscience.com/health-and...own-laboratory

We've 3D printed scaffolds and had pre-existing cells colonize them yes.

I meant for 'growing back' a limb it would involve actually growing it back. As in getting bone muscle nerves and blood vessels to grow. This after cells in the body are induced to begin growing again or stem cells derived from those adult cells are implanted in the body to spur regrowth.

As opposed to manufacturing a whole arm in a lab and then attaching it to an amputee.

Ultimately, except for certain less diversified organs (heart, liver, etc) the body has to still do the physiological work.

Also 3D printed organs are a bit of a different thing. We don't need any stem cells for those.

Stem cells come into question when we're talking about non proliferating cell lines. like nervous tissue and cardiac muscle.

[Serinity]

still we have the arrogance of the kuffar having the audacity to say this just happened.. Pretty ridiculous.

[EgyptPrincess]

still we have the arrogance of the kuffar having the audacity to say this just happened.. Pretty ridiculous.

Excuse me?

[Bhabha]

I think the issue is that research to modify the creation of Allah, to extend someone's life in "unnatural" ways is the problem. If people are sick, dying, its their time to die.... its not our time to extend the lifespan of people.

[Serinity]

Not to mention it is haram to attempt to change the Creation of Allah SWT.

And when the time comes, i.e. when Allah SWT decrees someone to die - nothing can prevent him from dying. and if Allah SWT wills someone to live, no matter how severe the illness, he will survive.

Problem is, those who try to use regenerative stuff, to try to make themselves young again - may Allah SWT destroy such people. Ameen.

There was a case when someone tried to take from a young lad some cells or something to make himself young again. he caught an illness and died.

As Muslims we should embrace death.

[EgyptPrincess]

Not to mention it is haram to attempt to change the Creation of Allah SWT.

And when the time comes, i.e. when Allah SWT decrees someone to die - nothing can prevent him from dying. and if Allah SWT wills someone to live, no matter how severe the illness, he will survive.

Problem is, those who try to use regenerative stuff, to try to make themselves young again - may Allah SWT destroy such people. Ameen.

There was a case when someone tried to take from a young lad some cells or something to make himself young again. he caught an illness and died.

As Muslims we should embrace death.

Stop being stupid for a moment... it's not about trying to prevent death forever. It's about giving people the option to survive. If you get a kidney disease, you can go to hospital, go on a waiting list for a kidney transplant and have the operation. You seem to think that we should do nothing to help save people? Wake up bro... If you accidentally get bitten by a snake or a spider, don't you dare go to hospital for treatment because we should all embrace death. No... It's human nature to want to survive so stop being ridiculous.

There's a reason we're sending medical aid and food to Syria... It's to help save them. God forbid your child gets a life threatening illness and you think you won't take him to hospital because Allah will save him for you. That's just stupid talk, just because Allah can save him doesn't mean he ever will. Go stand in front of a train and see if Allah saves you...

With regards to embryos, the soul does not enter the fetus until the 120th day so it's not haram to use embryonic cells. You think Allah gave us the intelligence, the curiosity and the ability to pursue science if he didn't want us to? Allah gave us incredibly powerful brains for a reason. In fact I argue it would be a crime against Allah not to use what he gave us to create a better, safer more vibrant world for ourselves.

I hope you're not one of those people who thinks nothing is worth pursuing because we're all going to die anyway. You wanted to do programming right? What's the point? It's meaningless, you're going to die soon anyway. That's idiocy.

[Cpt.America]

Not to mention it is haram to attempt to change the Creation of Allah SWT.

And when the time comes, i.e. when Allah SWT decrees someone to die - nothing can prevent him from dying. and if Allah SWT wills someone to live, no matter how severe the illness, he will survive.

Problem is, those who try to use regenerative stuff, to try to make themselves young again - may Allah SWT destroy such people. Ameen.

There was a case when someone tried to take from a young lad some cells or something to make himself young again. he caught an illness and died.

As Muslims we should embrace death.

Stop being stupid for a moment... it's not about trying to prevent death forever. It's about giving people the option to survive. If you get a kidney disease, you can go to hospital, go on a waiting list for a kidney transplant and have the operation. You seem to think that we should do nothing to help save people? Wake up bro... If you accidentally get bitten by a snake or a spider, don't you dare go to hospital for treatment because we should all embrace death. No... It's human nature to want to survive so stop being ridiculous.

There's a reason we're sending medical aid and food to Syria... It's to help save them. God forbid your child gets a life threatening illness and you think you won't take him to hospital because Allah will save him for you. That's just stupid talk, just because Allah can save him doesn't mean he ever will. Go stand in front of a train and see if Allah saves you...

With regards to embryos, the soul does not enter the fetus until the 120th day so it's not haram to use embryonic cells. You think Allah gave us the intelligence, the curiosity and the ability to pursue science if he didn't want us to? Allah gave us incredibly powerful brains for a reason. In fact I argue it would be a crime against Allah not to use what he gave us to create a better, safer more vibrant world for ourselves.

I hope you're not one of those people who thinks nothing is worth pursuing because we're all going to die anyway. You wanted to do programming right? What's the point? It's meaningless, you're going to die soon anyway. That's idiocy.

Muslims believe that death is unavoidable at its written time and place.
However the point of medicine is not to prevent death, or even to prolong life,
But it is to ease the suffering of our fellow human, and do our best to treat their illness with whatever knowledge we have.
You can survive for a lengthy period of time with kidney failure with or without dialysis, but one is more painful an existence than the other.
When we treat a patient we should do it with the best of manners and the utmost humility, and remember that we do our part but ultimately it is Allah who heals. (So treatment itself can be a dawah)
Two patients with the same illness can be given the same treatment with the same medication and one will survive and the other may die. We do the best we can, but we are not the ones to decide the barakah in the medicine.
Somebody with a more dunya centric view will chalk this up to a difference in genetics causing different subtle reaction to the medication, which is indeed the mechanism, but we know that the causation of this is ultimately by Allah's Will.

So Serinity you are correct in saying that death is unavoidable, but that does not mean we should not pursue knowledge of medicine and try to improve the health of those who are suffering. I think what you are referring to is needless plastic surgery that celebrities do and stuff.

And EgyptPrincess you too are right in stating that Allah has blessed us with intellect to pursue knowledge. Through the pursuit of knowledge it is our responsibility to realize that this universe and our existence in itself is perfect and humbling and realize the existence of a Creator and appreciate the perfection and Mercy of our Creator.

I think you are both correct, but there was simply some small misunderstanding in between.

[EgyptPrincess]

Muslims believe that death is unavoidable at its written time and place.
However the point of medicine is not to prevent death, or even to prolong life,
But it is to ease the suffering of our fellow human, and do our best to treat their illness with whatever knowledge we have.
You can survive for a lengthy period of time with kidney failure with or without dialysis, but one is more painful an existence than the other.
When we treat a patient we should do it with the best of manners and the utmost humility, and remember that we do our part but ultimately it is Allah who heals. (So treatment itself can be a dawah)
Two patients with the same illness can be given the same treatment with the same medication and one will survive and the other may die. We do the best we can, but we are not the ones to decide the barakah in the medicine.
Somebody with a more dunya centric view will chalk this up to a difference in genetics causing different subtle reaction to the medication, which is indeed the mechanism, but we know that the causation of this is ultimately by Allah's Will.

So Serinity you are correct in saying that death is unavoidable, but that does not mean we should not pursue knowledge of medicine and try to improve the health of those who are suffering. I think what you are referring to is needless plastic surgery that celebrities do and stuff.

And EgyptPrincess you too are right in stating that Allah has blessed us with intellect to pursue knowledge. Through the pursuit of knowledge it is our responsibility to realize that this universe and our existence in itself is perfect and humbling and realize the existence of a Creator and appreciate the perfection and Mercy of our Creator.

I think you are both correct, but there was simply some small misunderstanding in between.

It just seems that Serinity doesn't see the point in medicine or scientific treatment because ultimately it's Allah who decides who lives and who dies. Therefore if you get cancer or a life threatening illness it's pointless to go to the hospital for treatment because whether you have the treatment or not, it's Allah's decision who lives and who dies.

Statistics how that those who have cancer treatment survive more than those who do not have it. In fact not getting the treatment has proven 100% mortality rate. So it would seem that Allah NEVER saves those who do not try to save themselves.

Cancer WILL kill you... but with treatment and medication, Allah may spare your life.

[Serinity]

I never said not to try to save life. you are misunderstanding me.

As Muslims - As Cpt.America said - our belief is that death is unavoidable - so one can't prevent a death Allah SWT decreed.

What I am saying - those who attempt with science to avoid death are but in delusion - everyone will die, and everyone will taste death.

And I don't find it right to INTENTIONALLY abort something, and use it for 'science'. Sounds inhumane. If it is possible to save a human life - or to let him live - who are we to prevent that?

There are those who do not fear Allah SWT and tries to make themselves young again, thinking they can escape death. When death comes, it will happen.

There was such a case once, who tried to make himself young, but died in the process.

I don't think it is ethical to intentionally abort for scientific purposes.
There is a cure for every illness except death.

[Cpt.America]

It just seems that Serinity doesn't see the point in medicine or scientific treatment because ultimately it's Allah who decides who lives and who dies. Therefore if you get cancer or a life threatening illness it's pointless to go to the hospital for treatment because whether you have the treatment or not, it's Allah's decision who lives and who dies.

Statistics how that those who have cancer treatment survive more than those who do not have it. In fact not getting the treatment has proven 100% mortality rate. So it would seem that Allah NEVER saves those who do not try to save themselves.

Cancer WILL kill you... but with treatment and medication, Allah may spare your life.

Good example is:

Anas ibn Malik reported: A man said, “O Messenger of Allah, should I tie my camel and trust in Allah, or should I untie her and trust in Allah?” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Tie her and trust in Allah.”
Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 2517

Seeking medical treatment is tying our camel.

A person who does not seek cancer treatment may live for a long time and then die (as Steve Jobs did. He didn't get treatment for his pancreatic cancer)
And a person who did recieve treatment, may find themselves in remission and die.

The fact that death is unavoidable does not excuse us from failing to seek treatment.
Our bodies are a trust from Allah. It is our responsibility to Allah to keep them in good health.

Having a fatalistic view is unislamic. People with extreme fatalistic views are the ones who say that "What is the point of life, Allah already knows who will go to Jahannam and who will go to Jannah" and then choose not to work towards Allah, in effect choosing Jahannam for themselves.

Likewise, a person who is ill and has the means to take care of their bodies and chooses not to, is doing a disservice to Allah, and showing the intention of their choice. Allah is the One who prolongs life or chooses not to. (For example: Doing good deeds is one way to increase the rizk that is written for us and may also result in prolonged life in some cases if Allah wills)
If it is our intention to not make an attempt,
it is most likely that it is that intention which will be granted to us.

[EgyptPrincess]

I never said not to try to save life. you are misunderstanding me.

What I am saying - those who attempt with science to avoid death are but in delusion - everyone will die, and everyone will taste death.

And I don't find it right to INTENTIONALLY abort something, and use it for 'science'. Sounds inhumane. If it is possible to save a human life - or to let him live - who are we to prevent that?

There are those who do not fear Allah SWT and tries to make themselves young again, thinking they can escape death. When death comes, it will happen.

I don't think it is ethical to intentionally abort for scientific purposes.

Again it's not about trying to get around death. Death is avoidable but if a child of 8 years old has cancer, should we treat him? Should we use the brains that Allah swt gave us and try to save his life? Or do we sit on our hands and do nothing for him and guarantee that he will die?

Allah swt gave us the ability to heal people. If an innocent old lady is stabbed in the chest, do we just let her bleed out and hope that Allah swt will save her life? No.. she will bleed out on the street and die.

Whether you accept it or not, Allah swt gave us (some of us) intelligence to make the world and mankind better and healthier. It seems that Allah is biased towards smart people... cross the road without looking and chances are you're going to get hit by a car... look before crossing and chances are you'll survive. Allah does not favour stupid people it seems.

[EgyptPrincess]

Good example is:

Anas ibn Malik reported: A man said, “O Messenger of Allah, should I tie my camel and trust in Allah, or should I untie her and trust in Allah?” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Tie her and trust in Allah.”
Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 2517

Seeking medical treatment is tying our camel.

A person who does not seek cancer treatment may live for a long time and then die (as Steve Jobs did. He didn't get treatment for his pancreatic cancer)
And a person who did recieve treatment, may find themselves in remission and die.

The fact that death is unavoidable does not excuse us from failing to seek treatment.
Our bodies are a trust from Allah. It is our responsibility to Allah to keep them in good health.

Having a fatalistic view is unislamic. People with extreme fatalistic views are the ones who say that "What is the point of life, Allah already knows who will go to Jahannam and who will go to Jannah" and then choose not to work towards Allah, in effect choosing Jahannam for themselves.

Likewise, a person who is ill and has the means to take care of their bodies and chooses not to, is doing a disservice to Allah, and showing the intention of their choice. Allah is the One who prolongs life or chooses not to. (For example: Doing good deeds is one way to increase the rizk that is written for us and may also result in prolonged life in some cases if Allah wills)
If it is our intention to not make an attempt,
it is most likely that it is that intention which will be granted to us.

Great post brother :)

[Cpt.America]

Again it's not about trying to get around death. Death is avoidable but if a child of 8 years old has cancer, should we treat him? Should we use the brains that Allah swt gave us and try to save his life? Or do we sit on our hands and do nothing for him and guarantee that he will die?

Allah swt gave us the ability to heal people. If an innocent old lady is stabbed in the chest, do we just let her bleed out and hope that Allah swt will save her life? No.. she will bleed out on the street and die.

Whether you accept it or not, Allah swt gave us (some of us) intelligence to make the world and mankind better and healthier. It seems that Allah is biased towards smart people... cross the road without looking and chances are you're going to get hit by a car... look before crossing and chances are you'll survive. Allah does not favour stupid people it seems.

He is specifically talking about people such as [Ray Kurzweil] who are under the impression that immortality is achievable and seek to achieve it through medicine and technology. Such people are of course in error to assume that such a thing would be possible.

It is different than talking about healing.

Edited: I erroneously mixed Kurzweil with Richard Dawkins originally until I was corrected.

[Serinity]

Again it's not about trying to get around death. Death is avoidable but if a child of 8 years old has cancer, should we treat him? Should we use the brains that Allah swt gave us and try to save his life? Or do we sit on our hands and do nothing for him and guarantee that he will die?

Allah swt gave us the ability to heal people. If an innocent old lady is stabbed in the chest, do we just let her bleed out and hope that Allah swt will save her life? No.. she will bleed out on the street and die.

Whether you accept it or not, Allah swt gave us (some of us) intelligence to make the world and mankind better and healthier. It seems that Allah is biased towards smart people... cross the road without looking and chances are you're going to get hit by a car... look before crossing and chances are you'll survive. Allah does not favour stupid people it seems.

It is the belief of a Muslim that death is unavoidable - when Allah SWT decrees death - none can stop it. It is unavoidable at its written time and place.

Allah SWT gave us common sense, and we should try our best to survive with whatever means we have.

It isn't about being stupid or smart. Allah SWT will judge fairly. It is about having common sense.

Allah SWT will judge you based on what He SWT gave you, and what you chose to do. Allah SWT won't be biased in regards to who is smart or who is 'stupid'.

The one who crosses the road carelessly should blame himself. Similarily the one who does not seek treatment and dies should blame himself.

If one gets cancer - that is Qadr of Allah SWT. But Allah SWT gave us another Qadr which will prevent the other Qadr..

For example:

your house is on fire - that is what Allah SWT willed and decreed. But He SWT provided you with fire alarms etc. So if we don't take advantage of what Allah SWT gave us to survive. we have only ourselves to blame.

May Allah SWT forgive me if I said any wrong. Ameen.

And Allah SWT knows best.

[Serinity]

He is specifically talking about people such as Richard Dawkins who are under the impression that immortality is achievable and seek to achieve it through medicine and technology. Such people are of course in error to assume that such a thing would be possible.

It is different than talking about healing.

Exactly.

I never implied to not seek treatment of which Allah SWT provided.

What I am saying is for those who do not fear Allah SWT, they'll think they can become immortal, or 'God'. and control the universe.

They attribute their success and abilities, what they achieve with science to themselves, thankless of Allah SWT. Thereby becoming arrogant and narrowminded.

For example, when they see something they could never even IMAGINE in the Creation of Allah SWT, they deludedly say 'what a coincidence' denying Allah SWT.

[EgyptPrincess]

He is specifically talking about people such as Richard Dawkins who are under the impression that immortality is achievable and seek to achieve it through medicine and technology. Such people are of course in error to assume that such a thing would be possible.

It is different than talking about healing.

When has Richard Dawkins ever said that immortality is achievable? I don't really follow these kinds of people but nothing is immortal, even stars die eventually...

If you look throughout history the maximum lifespan of humans has increased dramatically.

but achieving immortality would be something impossible in my opinion. The only way a human could live for hundreds or thousands of years is if we could somehow transfer our memories and consciousness to a computer. Which I think is impossible.

In a hundred years or so the average lifespan will probably be about 120 or so. Allah is giving us the means to live longer lives.

[Serinity]

In the Quran Allah SWT says that everyone will taste death, so immortality is out of the question.

In the time of Adam AS they lived way longer than us. So yeah.

[EgyptPrincess]

In the Quran Allah SWT says that everyone will taste death, so immortality is out of the question.

In the time of Adam AS they lived way longer than us. So yeah.

Which is why I said it's impossible. It flies in the face of what Allah swt tells us. We know from science that even the universe itself will die which the Quran also says something similar.

"That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do. (Qur'an, 21:104)"

[Serinity]

afaik, Adam AS was very tall, and humanity degraded over time, by the will of Allah SWT.

There was something called 'bottleneck'.

[EgyptPrincess]

afaik, Adam AS was very tall, and humanity degraded over time, by the will of Allah SWT.

There was something called 'bottleneck'.

Well there have been a few small occasions where mankinds average lifespan dropped due to extreme illness and war but as the graph grows, life expectancy has risen dramatically due to advancements in healthcare and medicine etc.

[Serinity]

Those are all secondary 'values'. Overall Allah SWT willed it. :)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

He is specifically talking about people such as Richard Dawkins who are under the impression that immortality is achievable and seek to achieve it through medicine and technology. Such people are of course in error to assume that such a thing would be possible.

This is a very inaccurate characterisation of Richard Dawkins' views on immortality, which you can see him talking about here:



Peace

[Cpt.America]

Greetings,



This is a very inaccurate characterisation of Richard Dawkins' views on immortality, which you can see him talking about here:



Peace

I am sorry and you are absolutely right. I appreciate the correction.
I was thinking of Ray Kurwzweil. The singularists.