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Steven Caro
07-21-2016, 10:58 AM
Dear brothers and sisters. I am a seeker of truth and I haven't made my mind up yet as to what i believe. I am told that Islam is the correct path to salvation yet some of the claims bother me. I understand that there is a spiritual world and that man has a spiritual nature but that also science is an aspect of existence. The Quran claims to have scientific knowledge that no one could have known at the time it was written.
This bothers me as I can't validate its claims in my head

For example Muslims I have spoken to say that it claims the Earth is round, spherical like an egg but that it also says it is rolled out like a carpet? THere seems to be a contradiction here. Even so if we take the claim that the earth is egg shaped, the Greeks knew about this hundreds of years before. Surely this philosophy would have crossed over and been known or at least heard of. I cannot see how this can be a divine revelation. To say ahh yes but its not spherical but egg shaped is the revelation is not enough. It could merely be a poetic expression.

Plato(427–347 BC) : 'My conviction is that the Earth is a round body in the centre of the heavens, and therefore has no need of air or of any similar force to be a support" .If man could soar high above the clouds, Earth would resemble, "one of those balls which have leather coverings in twelve pieces, and is decked with various colours, of which the colours used by painters on Earth are in a manner samples."


Embryology is another claim of the Quran and Muslims I have spoken to have got very excited about the Quran mentioning this as if it was a wholly new idea yet embryology was examined by Hippocrates and Aristotle in Greece hundreds of years before. Also, you don't need an electron microscope to see the early embryo. Look on google images. Leech like embryos can be held in the hand. Women had miscarriages in the 7th century. It could be seen.

These things bother me and I was wondering if anyone could help me understand how to get past this.
A seeker in truth,
S
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Scimitar
07-21-2016, 11:23 AM


And



Scimi
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Steven Caro
07-21-2016, 01:45 PM
With respect,I have no idea what the first video was all about and as for the second...one scientist? really...are you serious? Show me a string of independent historians and scientists that agree with the uniqueness of this claim in the Quran and then there might be something in it. But I am sorry it means nothing. As I said the Greeks had come up with similar descriptions long before. Thank you for trying though.
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czgibson
07-21-2016, 01:57 PM
Greetings,

The claim that there are scientific miracles in the Qur'an is popular among some Muslims, but it is rejected by the mainstream scientific community.

Peace
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talibilm
07-21-2016, 02:06 PM
Hi this is my post in another muslim Blog where similar questions about the Earth was asked . The answer is

The answer is vague ( It did not mention anything EXACTLY ) but a little inclined towards being a sphere through Dr zakir's deep analysis.

So ALLAH The ALL WISE, God knew VERY WELL what to reveal ? & what not to reveal ? & what to leave it 'VAGUE' ? and how to address it to those who were just toddlers to science.

The RIGHT DOSAGE OF KNOWLEDGE WAS THE NEED OF THEIR AGE THEN, OR OVER DOSAGE WOULD HAVE KILL THEIR FAITH and this is also confirmed by the following verse

Noble Quran 5:101-102 '''O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.''

Allah has addressed certain things vague they do not accept nor the deny , what's wrong in that ? when its being addressed to the people before 1430 years. Example if it was clearly mentioned in Quran Earth was spherical , just imagine what would have happened ? The Pagan Arabs then would have constructed THE tallest tower to climb and see was it real ? like Pharoah did since Moses told Allah was in the skies That would lead them only to waste their Precious TIME only thinking on this single word and still cannot come to any conclusion untill they had a Modern Astronomical Telescope or untill a satellite photographed it from space since even myself while flying at 30-40000 feet, still could not find any spheric curve that would satisfy ME that the earth is spherical and so we have to believe NASA , though they had lied about ''Manned'' Missions to Moon. the result should have been that they(Pagan Arabs) would have rejected the Quran as a Lie. So The ALL WISE, God knew VERY WELL what to reveal ? & what not to reveal ? & what to leave it 'VAGUE' ? and how to address it so that they became believers that changed them like 'Sand into gold'' ( The Gentiles& Pagans to the rulers of the world in 30-35 years)Subhanallah

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talibilm
07-21-2016, 02:37 PM
This is in reply to a questioner who claims that Greeks knew Earth was sphere in 300BC and bashes me for my claim that Manned Mission to moon were doubtful


Anti Islamists had created history , deleted history ALL just to disprove or downgrade Islam and claimed fake inventions to refuted later by their own
right minded people or who raised genuine doubts. you have to go into my posts into comparative religion against trolls to know that .and there was a thread even doubting weather the Earth was really round, just a few months back in this ERA ?? ,lol. About inventions of Earth being round done in year 300 bc how genuine it was we do not know, (any eye witness ?? ) when Greeks were all the way praised as heroes of science & Astronomy by the vatican and their groups who followed the heliocentric theory was just found fake BY THEIR OWN (Galileo) just before 300 plus years,lol and you are talking about 2300 years ago . when they could not even Document their own Priceless holy Scripture, The New Testaments ?? see wiki (might be they have removed this copy&paste too )

''Galileo published his confirmation that the Earth orbits the Sun, in favor of the
Copernican system, he was charged with heresies (ideas that ran counter to teaching of
the church) by the Inquisition—the legal body of the Catholic church. He was found guilty
in 1633 and sentenced to life imprisonment but due to his age and poor health he was allowed
to serve out his sentence under house arrest.

About the Moon am not babbling anything of my own but by their own Americans and Westerners who had raised genuine doubts ( just google Youtube videos) and asked even to Armstrong that when we could do it in 1969, inspite of making 1000 fold advancement after 1990's in Sceince, Space & technology, why they could n't put a manned mission to the moon ?clearly , genuinely and announcing it in advance as was in the 1969 missions ? was their's a FEW of many questions.

So, you should bash them , not me nor i want to become a target (like my friend Galileo lol )for down grading any body or any person. Let their fame they keep for themselves.
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talibilm
07-21-2016, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Steven Caro
Dear brothers and sisters.


Embryology is another claim of the Quran and Muslims I have spoken to have got very excited about the Quran mentioning this as if it was a wholly new idea yet embryology was examined by Hippocrates and Aristotle in Greece hundreds of years before. Also, you don't need an electron microscope to see the early embryo. Look on google images. Leech like embryos can be held in the hand. Women had miscarriages in the 7th century. It could be seen.

These things bother me and I was wondering if anyone could help me understand how to get past this.
A seeker in truth,
S
Post #19 here http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...42-last-doubts

The below is another paste , a reply to a questioner who claims that Greek knew the earth was round in 300 BC LIKE you say that they knew about Embryology . History even before just 200 years was distorted in spite of having millions of witnesses ( Tippu Sultan & other kings in India )


Anti Islamists had created history , deleted history ALL just to disprove or downgrade Islam and claimed fake inventions to be refuted later by their own
right minded people who raised genuine doubts. you have to go into my posts into comparative religion against trolls to know that .and there was a thread even doubting weather the Earth was really round, just a few months back in this ERA ?? ,lol. About inventions of Earth being round done in year 300 bc how genuine it was we do not know, (any eye witness ?? ) when Greeks were all the way praised as heroes of science & Astronomy by the vatican and their groups who followed the heliocentric theory was just found fake BY THEIR OWN (Galileo) just before 300 plus years,lol and you are talking about 2300 years ago . when they could not even Document their own Priceless holy Scripture, The New Testaments ?? see wiki (might be they have removed this copy&paste too )

''Galileo published his confirmation that the Earth orbits the Sun, in favor of the
Copernican system, he was charged with heresies (ideas that ran counter to teaching of
the church) by the Inquisition—the legal body of the Catholic church. He was found guilty
in 1633 and sentenced to life imprisonment but due to his age and poor health he was allowed
to serve out his sentence under house arrest.

About the Moon am not babbling anything of my own but by their own Americans and Westerners who had raised genuine doubts ( just google Youtube videos) and asked even to Armstrong that when we could do it in 1969, inspite of making 1000 fold advancement after 1990's in Science, Space & technology, why they could n't put a manned mission to the moon in 1990's ?clearly , genuinely and announcing it in advance as was in the 1969 missions ? was their's a FEW of many questions.

So, you should bash them , not me nor i want to become a target (like my friend Galileo lol )for down grading any body or any person. Let their fame they keep for themselves.
Reply

Steven Caro
07-21-2016, 02:47 PM
This notion that god only reveals what he thinks is suitable for the level of intelligence of the people at the time troubles me. Is this not a convenient get out for anything? I cannot see any science in the Quran and I must say that the lack of it does not fortify the conclusion that god decided not to be specific for fear of confounding the minds of his followers. I don't doubt a spiritual dimension to existence at all but I fail to see the Quran is anymore unique than many other books from other cultures, like the Bhagivad Gita, he Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Gnostic gospels etc. I understand great effort has been made to retain its integrity and stop any corruption. However, I am still unconvinced by the miraculous claims proving it to be the direct word of god. I understand faith has to be applied so I shall not argue against that. All religions require faith it seems so it seems to be a matter of choose your ideology. God cannot be specific to a part of the world and only true through that culture. I suggest s/he makes himself known through various cultures and doctrines, now and in the past. Perhaps the true book is the living book we find ourselves in. Are we not words upon the page of now- the moment, living flames of the eternal glory?
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talibilm
07-21-2016, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Steven Caro
This notion that god only reveals what he thinks is suitable for the level of intelligence of the people at the time troubles me. Is this not a convenient get out for anything? I cannot see any science in the Quran and I must say that the lack of it does not fortify the conclusion that god decided not to be specific for fear of confounding the minds of his followers. I don't doubt a spiritual dimension to existence at all but I fail to see the Quran is anymore unique than many other books from other cultures, like the Bhagivad Gita, he Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Gnostic gospels etc. I understand great effort has been made to retain its integrity and stop any corruption. However, I am still unconvinced by the miraculous claims proving it to be the direct word of god. I understand faith has to be applied so I shall not argue against that. All religions require faith it seems so it seems to be a matter of choose your ideology. God cannot be specific to a part of the world and only true through that culture. I suggest s/he makes himself known through various cultures and doctrines, now and in the past. Perhaps the true book is the living book we find ourselves in. Are we not words upon the page of now- the moment, living flames of the eternal glory?
Thanks for your kind reply of diplomacy not trying to force your views on others but still I reiterate The Noble Quran is incomparable to any other existing Holy book , why & How ? its here again ( sorry am tired of replying these questions so it my copy & paste Here )

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ther-Religions
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talibilm
07-21-2016, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Steven Caro
This notion that god only reveals what he thinks is suitable for the level of intelligence of the people at the time troubles me. Is this not a convenient get out for anything? I cannot see any science in the Quran and I must say that the lack of it does not fortify the conclusion that god decided not to be specific for fear of confounding the minds of his followers. I don't doubt a spiritual dimension to existence at all but I fail to see the Quran is anymore unique than many other books from other cultures, like the Bhagivad Gita, he Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Gnostic gospels etc. I understand great effort has been made to retain its integrity and stop any corruption. However, I am still unconvinced by the miraculous claims proving it to be the direct word of god. I understand faith has to be applied so I shall not argue against that. All religions require faith it seems so it seems to be a matter of choose your ideology. God cannot be specific to a part of the world and only true through that culture. I suggest s/he makes himself known through various cultures and doctrines, now and in the past. Perhaps the true book is the living book we find ourselves in. Are we not words upon the page of now- the moment, living flames of the eternal glory?
I feel you had partly misunderstood my explanation which was exposing limited knowledge according to the capacity of the Person like a toddler is to be addressed in a way a toddler understands , A Doctor would use only those words that a patient would understand and NOT those complicated words that Doctor speak among themselves etc. Our 1400 years old Hadith (listed below) already told that the Noble Quran as the revelations from God will have DEEP MEANING and will be a like Living Miracle untill the lasts days of this World, which is proved by the Multiple meanings of the Noble as understand by the readers at their respective ages of Existence which is Proved in this video (in the copy & paste below)


The Noble Quran is a book for all ages so their meanings would be understood according to every age and all of that's understood are all correct and its has still deeper meaning than what you and me have understand , though the tafsirs will help but certain subjects regarding the mightiest creations of Allah on which Allah had INSTRUCTED US HUMANS TO CONTEMPLATE like The Nature (Seas, skies,stars ) human body and its perfect Alignment (biology etc ) and the Noble Kalamullah will continue to exist as a LIVING Miracle untill the day of judgement through which People will enter understanding it many ways but all of them will be right in truth (need not debate on this) as per this hadiths itself

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "There was no prophet among the prophets but was given MIRACLES because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection."

From post # 41 in http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...r-Wisdom/page2


If its still unclear with what I mean kindly see this video (completely) which shows the words of Allah will have multiple meanings that will be understood in their respective ages but still no one will be wrong, subhanallah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss-fuY3hTO8

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Steven Caro
07-21-2016, 05:02 PM
Thank you Talibilm for your reply and the link. With respect, the correlation between the Quranic text and science of black holes is the spurious to the utmost degree. There is absolutely no obvious connection at all. Falling stars can be shooting stars, stars falling behind the horizon etc. Piercing star meaning super-massive black hole...are you serious? Light can be piercing. If you think this is proof enough for you then good luck to you. In all honesty I've never seen anything quite as unconvincing as this presented as a truth. Seriously, this is pushing it too far.
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Scimitar
07-21-2016, 05:11 PM
The 6 Days (periods) of Creation - as mentioned in the Qur'an, scientifically understood in the modern age, with proofs:

Did you know that the "Relativity of Time" was announced over 1400 yrs ago


Throughout history, “time” was assumed to apply equally in every imaginable spot in the universe and in every medium. If we consider this conception, we can see the radical change that the Quranic verses brought. The Quran said that, according to circumstances, the “day” concept might equal even up to fifty thousand years. These verses which must have encountered objections have been elucidated in the twentieth century and shed light on important truths.

The theory of relativity is Einstein’s best known discovery. However, many people whose interests are not in any way related to physics are at a loss to understand what this theory signifies. The Quran had already touched on these facts 1400 years ago. Einstein’s theory of relativity has two main divisions, namely the special theory of relativity and the general theory of relativity.

According to Einstein, time would pass more slowly for somebody driving a vehicle at a speed close to the velocity of light. In a medium in which an inhabitant of the earth passes one hundred days, it may take a person fifty days to displace at a speed nearing the propagation speed of light. This finding is the most interesting fact of the relativity theory. Time slows down in direct proportion with speed. Time is therefore a relative conception, as indicated in the Quran. Hours differ and days are conceived differently according to the medium, place and speed involved.

The general theory of relativity deals with gravitational fields and tries to demonstrate that time is slower in the fields of greater gravitation. A man walking on the surface of the sun will see that his clock runs more slowly, as do the biological and anatomical functions and all the motions in terms of his atoms. Recent experiments have corroborated this fact. One of these experiments was conducted in the British National Institute of Physics. John Laverty, researcher, synchronized two clocks indicating the exact time (two clocks of optimum perfection; error of precision in the course of a space of time of 300,000 years would be not more than 1 second). One of these clocks was kept at a laboratory in London; the other was taken aboard an airplane shuttling between London and China. The high altitude at which the aircraft flies is subject to a lower gravitational force. In other words, time was expected to pass at a faster rate aboard a plane in conformity with the general relativity theory. There is not so great a difference in terms of gravity between someone treading upon the earth and someone flying in the air. This difference could only be established by a precision instrument. It was established that the clock aboard the aircraft had a greater speed, one per fifty five billion seconds. This experiment is one of the proofs of the relativity of time. According to the prevailing prejudice, there should not be any difference between the two clocks. This supports the dispelling of prejudices as foreseen in the Quran. Had it been possible to make this experiment on a planet with greater gravitational force, there would be no need for precision instruments to measure the difference, since normal watches could do the job.

THE USE OF THE WORD “DAY” IN THE QURAN

V4- To Him ascend the angels and the spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
70-The Heights, V4 [70 SURAh AL-MAARIJ, V 4]

V5- He regulates all affairs from the heaven to the earth. Then they ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is a thousand years as you count.
32-The Prostration, V5 [032 SURAH AS-SAJDAH, V5]

Verse 5 of the sura The Prostration and Verse 4 of the sura The Heights not only point to the relativity of time, but give also a clear meaning of the Arabic word “yawm” (which translates to the word - "day") that denotes not only the space of time of one day - which comprises 24 hours - but also a certain period of time. This makes it easier to understand the six “yawm”s mentioned in the Quran (See: 7-The Purgatory, 54; 11-Hud, 7; 10- Jonah, 3; 25-The Distinguisher, 59; 32-The Prostration, 4; 57-Iron, 4.) Before the creation of the universe and the world there was no notion of “day,” a period of 24 hours. Therefore, the six “yawm”s must be understood as six “periods.”


A NOTE TO CHRISTIANS AND JEWS ABOUT "TIME"

This gives a clue to the Jews and Christians for the interpretation of the Biblical account according to which the world was created in six days. Findings in the domain of space physics show that the universe and our world passed through many stages, from a gaseous state to galaxies, to the formation of the atmosphere surrounding the Earth, and of waters and metals. The fact that the Quran refers to the stages that the process of creation went through is also better understood by modern cosmology.

If we remember the stories of creation of ancient Egypt, China and India, we encounter wild fancies such as a universe standing on a tortoise or as an eternally existing entity. None of the past civilizations had made any reference to the stages of this evolution. This message of the Quran contributes to a correct interpretation of Biblical exegeses of the concept of day. The message in the Bible that reads: “And on the seventh day God finished His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work that He had done.” (Genesis 2, 2) was thus corrected, as fatigue was certainly out of the question for God.

V38- We created the heavens and the earth, and all that lies between them in six days, and no fatigue touched us.
50-Qaf, V38 [50-Sura Qaf, V38]

CONTRIBUTION OF THE RELATIVITY THEORY

Einstein postulated that the concept of time was relative. For Kant time was an innate function of reason. He contended that the perception of time was an a priori category. Einstein’s physics was henceforth the science that integrated time and space, so that, instead of space we had now space-time.

There is something that must not escape attention, however: the perception of time is achieved by the intellect. Since according to our estimation, just as the special relativity theory establishes that velocity makes time relative and the general relativity theory postulates that gravity makes time relative, one should elaborate on “the intellect’s relativity” which posits that the intellect’s perception manner would render the relative perception of time. Like a key that fits the lock, our intellect also has the capacity of perceiving time and the universe. That is (1) time exists in the universe, (2) and the intellect is created with a priori abilities to perceive time and the universe. The two processes are coexistent, just like the coexistence of the world seen by us and the eyes.

It seems to us only fair to add the intellect’s perception factor to Einstein’s concepts relating velocity and gravity and time. Comprehension of time’s relativity will contribute to a better understanding of the Quran. For instance, it is said in the Quran that the dead will think when resurrected that their span on the earth had been very brief. Once time’s relativity has been conceived, the puzzling question of the time to elapse from one’s death till the Day of Judgement will be clear. Such questions for the inquisitive mind that sees the time upon the earth as the only valid time regardless of the attending circumstances will find their answer, once time’s relativity is understood. Given the fact that a deceased person is outside the confines of the temporal dimensions of the earth, the time to elapse after his death, regardless of its actual duration, would be of no consequence.

V45- On the day when He gathers them, it will appear to them as if they had tarried an hour of a day...
10-Jonah, V45 [010 SURAH YUNUS, V45]

V112- He said: “How many years did you stay on earth?”
V113- They said: “We stayed a day or part of a day, ask those who account.”
23-The Believers, V112-V113 [23 SURAH AL-MOMINOON, V112-V113]

ANYONE AMONG US TIRED OF WAITING FOR EONS?

The reason why the fifteen billion years that elapsed from the moment the universe was created until the creation of man was made clear by time’s relativity. In a different context, fifteen billion years may be conceived as one minute or even less. The length of its duration depends on our perception and standpoint.

Scientists, based on the most recent and accurate calculations, assert that approximately fifteen billion years have elapsed since the creation of the universe until this very moment. Is there anyone who feels tired of waiting for eons? The evident answer being in the negative, the time the departed will have to wait as from their decease until resurrection will not cause anxiety in them. Comprehension of time’s relativity renders possible the solution of many problems believed to be beyond the grasp of the intellect.

PROOF FROM NECESSARY VERSUS POSSIBLE BEING

A host of celebrated philosophers like Avicenna (Ibn Sina), Farabi, Taftazani and Jurjani had recourse to this argument in proving God’s existence. They asserted that all the possible creatures upon the earth could not exist by themselves as they owed their existence to a Creator. “The created” requires a Creator while God, “the Self-Existent” (whose existence is a necessity) does not need a creator. The created is a product of causality; their existence or non-existence are within the confines of possibility. To think of the non-existence of the existent poses no contradiction. However, this does not hold true for the Self-Existing, God; otherwise the contradiction would be evident. Philosophers like Leibniz argued in like manner the principle of “Sufficient Reason.” According to him, the universe is made of possible beings. The universe itself is a possibility. If we try to trace back the chain of causality (which is impossible) until the infinite this would not explain the universe. Yes, the universe is a possibility but requires a Sufficient Reason outside its confines. To allege that the reasons may be traced back to the infinite would mean that we were created after eternity. But since eternity is endless there would be no question of any lapse of time after eternity; if there has been a chain of causality, it would necessarily follow that it had had an end. If there had been a chain of causality that came to an end, it would prove the existence of a “first cause.” There may be persons who would find the existence of a first cause difficult to grasp. On the other hand, an eternal chain of causes would be a self-contradiction.

Absurd and incomprehensible are not the same thing. For instance, the structure of a space-shuttle may be incomprehensible for us, but we cannot deny its existence. The number 5 cannot be higher than the number 10; that is absurd. As the contrary is absurd (that the eternal chain of causes has led to this point), the existence of a first cause is a necessity (although there are those who contend that this argument is “beyond comprehension”).

What I propose to do is to reformulate the approaches of a series of thinkers from Avicenna to Leibniz in the light of scientific data obtained in the twentieth century in a richer and more scientific context. Findings related to the relativity theory may be used for this end. That the perfect use of time existing only in relative terms in the universe, in the formation of the universal targets, can only be grasped by the existence of an Absolute and Indispensable Regulator, that the existence of time can only be explained in a satisfactory way by the Cause behind the creation of time, that the harmony existing between time and intellect can be imagined to exist by the presence of a Regulator outside the confines of time and intellect and that even time is a possibility depending on a Creator should be integrated for use with the explanation of the “proof from necessary versus possible beings.”

V81- ]And He shows you His signs: Then which of the signs of God will you deny?
40-The Believer, V81[040 SURE GAFIR, V81]

Looking at the works of Ibn Sina, Farabi, Taftazani and Jurjani as well as the works of Einstein, Newton, etc - we can see quite clearly that when Allah mentions in the Quran, the following:

[7:54] Your Lord is the one GOD; who created the heavens and the earth in six days,* then assumed all authority. The night overtakes the day, as it pursues it persistently, and the sun, the moon, and the stars are committed to serve by His command. Absolutely, He controls all creation and all commands. Most Exalted is GOD, Lord of the universe.

[11:7] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days—*and His (earthly) domain was completely covered with water—**in order to test you, to distinguish those among you who work righteousness. Yet, when you say, "You will be resurrected after death," those who disbelieve would say, "This is clearly witchcraft."

[10:3] Your only Lord is GOD; the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. He controls all matters. There is no intercessor, except in accordance with His will. Such is GOD your Lord. You shall worship Him. Would you not take heed?

[25:59] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, in six days, then assumed all authority. The Most Gracious; ask about Him those who are well founded in knowledge.

[32:4] GOD is the One who created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them in six days, then assumed all authority. You have none beside Him as Lord, nor do you have an intercessor. Would you not take heed?

[57:4] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days,* then assumed all authority. He knows everything that enters into the earth, and everything that comes out of it, and everything that comes down from the sky, and everything that climbs into it. He is with you wherever you may be. GOD is Seer of everything you do.


These are periods of measurement, in time - and time wasn't always a constant.

For example, we know from modern cosmology that time moves differently in different parts of the galaxy, and universe. For example, an earth day is 24 hours, but how long is a Mars day? or a Jupiter day? When "space" affects "time" - we understand that "time" itself is not a constant. So, therefore a day cannot be a constant according to "time" and "space", and the perception of time is wholly dependant on the witnessing of its passing.

To my knowledge, no human beings saw the universes creation... and so, the 6 periods mentioned in the Quran and the bible as "days" are indeed days (periods of time) but not in the way we measure them today. Nope. A Day by the reckoning of the creator is sometimes 1000 years, sometimes 50,000 years and sometimes even longer - dependant on what action is being referred to in the Quran.

is it all relative? of course... Einstein himself had no problem with it.

SIX DAYS OF CREATION


by Ibrahim B. Syed, Ph. D.
President
Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc.
7102 W. Shefford Lane
Louisville, KY 40242-6462, USA
E-mail: IRFI@INAME.COM
Website: http://WWW.IRFI.ORG

With regard to the creation of the universe (heavens and the earth) Allah (SWT) says in the Qur'an:
Your Guardian Lord

Is God, Who created

The heavens and the earth (universe)

In six Days,
..............

The Qur'an 7:54 / 32: 4


The literal translation gives the impression that the universe was created in six Days. The Arabic word "Yaum" is translated as Day. Actually a 'day' of the people living on earth is the time interval between each sunrise. During this time the earth makes one complete rotation around its axis, while moving in an orbit around the sun (which is a star).

In this verse Allah (SWT) is referring to the conditions, which existed before the sun or earth, were created. Hence the 'six days' should not be interpreted in terms of earth days. For Allah "yaum" is equal to billions of years or as short as one hundredth of a second or one atto-micro second (10-18 X 10-6 = 10-24 second).

The relativity of time is mentioned in the Qur'an Hakeem (The Book of Wisdom) in several verses. It is pertinent here to quote Abdullah Yusuf Ali, the most popular translator of the Noble Qur'an in the English language with commentaries. In note 1031 he says, "The creation in six Days is of course metaphorical. The " Days of God" refer not so much to time as to the growth in us of a spiritual sense, a sense of sin and a sense of God's Mercy. In Surah, 22: 47, we are told that a Day in the sight of God is like a thousand years of our reckoning and in Surah, 70: 4; the comparison is with 50,000 years of our (earth) years. In the history of our material earth, we may reckon six great epochs of evolution."

Hence the concept of time is relative. The meaning of "Yaum" includes day, period of time, interval of time, age, era, epochs of evolution or Time Frame.

The following article describes the creation of the universe in six periods of time or "Time Frames". This description is based on a theory of the early universe, which is popularly known by astronomers as the "standard model." It is more or less same thing as the "Big Bang" theory except that it contains the detailed recipe for the contents of the universe.

At the end of the article a Glossary of technical words is provided so that the readers may refer to it in order to understand the meaning of the word.

At the beginning, time was zero and space was zero and the temperature was infinite. Einstein showed through his famous equation (E = mc2) that mass can be converted into energy and energy can be converted into mass. Heat is energy, and from energy particles of mass could be produced. Above a threshold temperature of one billion degrees Kelvin (0° Celsius is equal to 2730 Kelvin), the universe would have contained a large number of particles called pi mesons. Their mass is about one-seventh that of a nucleon (proton or neutron). Nucleon is a particle that exists in the nucleus of an atom. A proton is a positively charged nucleon, whereas a neutron is slightly heavier than the proton but is electrically neutral. Unlike other particles, pi mesons interact very strongly with each other and with the nucleons. The interaction of pi mesons with the nucleons or nuclear particles is responsible for the nuclear or attractive force that exists in the nucleus of an atom.

The behavior of matter at super-high temperature is very difficult to predict. Hence the interpretation of the creation of the universe starts about one-hundredth of a second after the beginning (Big Bang) and the temperature was one hundred billion degrees Kelvin (0° Celsius is equal to 2730 Kelvin).

FIRST DAY


At this time the temperature of the universe is one hundred billion degrees Kelvin (1011 °K). It is filled with particles and radiation, which cannot be differentiated. The particles, which are continually being created out of pure energy, are colliding with each other very rapidly. Although the universe is expanding rapidly, the universe appears to be in a state of thermal equilibrium. The contents of the universe are subject to the laws of statistical mechanics. The temperature is extremely hot (1011 °K) and the conserved quantities of particle physics such as charge, lepton number, baryon number-are extremely small or zero.

The particles that are present abundantly are the electron (the negatively charged particle that flows through wires in electric currents and makes up the outer parts of all atoms and molecules in the present universe) and positron (antiparticle of electron which is a positively charged particle with precisely the same mass as electron). In the present universe positrons are found only in high-energy laboratories, in some kinds of radioactivity, and in violent astronomical phenomena like cosmic rays and supernovas, but in the early universe the number of positrons was almost exactly equal to the number of electrons, the massless particles- the photons, neutrinos and antineutrinos (antiparticle of neutrino). Neutrinos are ghostly particles with no mass or electric charge. At this time the universe is extremely dense and even the neutrinos, which can travel through the earth or through lead bricks without being scattered, are in a state of thermal equilibrium with electrons, positrons, and photons by colliding with them rapidly and with each other. They are behaving just like so many different kinds of radiation. The energy density is calculated to be 21 X 1044 electron Volts per liter.

This is equivalent to a mass density of 3.8 billion kilogram per liter or to express in simple term's equivalent to 3.8 billion times the density of water under normal earth conditions. Nobody has any concept of what this huge density means. Suppose Mount Everest was made of matter this dense, its gravitational attraction would destroy the earth. At this time the universe is filled with light.

The universe on the 'first day' is rapidly expanding and cooling. There are a small number of nuclear particles (nucleons) at this time. About one nucleon (proton or neutron) for every one billion (109) photons or electrons or neutrinos. The neutron is slightly heavier than the proton. The few neutrons or protons are colliding with the abundant electrons, positrons, and so on. As a result of these collisions a proton is converted into a neutron and vice versa. The reaction can be written as:

Proton + antineutrino = neutron + positron (vice versa)

Neutron + neutrino = proton + electron (vice versa)


There are almost exactly the same number of neutrinos and anti-neutrinos, the same number of electrons and positrons, so that the transition from neutron to proton is as fast as the transition from proton to neutron. Because of equilibrium the number of neutrons is equal to the number of protons on the 'first day.' These nucleons are not yet bound into nuclei and any complex nuclei formed are destroyed as soon as they are formed.

One is tempted to ask the question how large was the universe on the 'first day.' Unfortunately no one has the answer and this question has no meaning. If one shows that the universe is infinite now, then one can argue that the universe was Infinite then (at the time of 'first day), and will always be Infinite. On the other hand it is possible that the universe now has a finite circumference, which is estimated to be about 125 billion light years. This estimate is based on the present value of the Hubble Constant. By taking the ratios of the temperature then (1011 °K) to the present temperature (3° K), the circumference of the universe on the 'first day' is calculated to be about four light years (A light-year is the distance traveled by light in one year at the rate of 300 million kilometers per second). The details of the story of cosmic evolution (birth and formation of the universe) in the beginning do not depend on whether the circumference of the universe was infinite or had only a few light years.


SECOND DAY


Since the 'first day' only eleven hundredths of a second (0.11 sec.) have elapsed. The temperature of the universe has come down (cooled) to 30 billion degrees Kelvin (3X1010 °K). Qualitatively nothing has changed- the contents of the universe are the same such as protons, neutrons, electrons, positrons, neutrinos, antineutrinos and photons, -all in thermal equilibrium. The energy density has dropped to about 30 million times the energy density contained in the rest mass of water. The expansion time of the universe has now lengthened to about two-tenths of a second (0.2 second). The few nucleons (neutrons or protons) are not bound into nuclei, but with the cooling of temperature it is now significantly easier for the heavier neutrons to transform into lighter protons than vice versa. The ratio of neutrons to protons or nuclear particle balance has shifted to one-third neutrons and two-thirds protons.


THRID DAY


Since the 'first day' a little over one-second (1.09 seconds) have elapsed. The temperature of the universe is now ten billion degrees Kelvin (1010 °K). The decreasing density and temperature have caused the neutrinos and antineutrinos to behave like free particles and they are no longer in thermal equilibrium with the electrons, positrons or photons. This is called the "decoupling" of the neutrinos and they expand freely. They do not play any active role in the formation of the universe, except that their energy will continue to provide part of the source of the gravitational field of the universe.

The energy density is now reduced to a mass density of 380,000 times that of ordinary water. The temperature of the universe is twice the threshold temperature of electrons and positrons. The electrons and positrons interact with each other to annihilate more rapidly than they can be created out of radiation (energy). The temperature of the universe is still too hot for neutrons and protons to be bound into atomic nuclei for any appreciable length of time. The cooling temperature has now allowed the neutron-proton balance to shift to one-quarter neutrons and three-quarter protons.


FOURTH DAY

Since the 'first day' about 14 seconds have elapsed. The temperature of the universe is now 3 billion (3 X 109 °K) degrees Kelvin. The electrons and positrons are beginning rapidly to disappear as major components of the universe. The neutrinos are about 8 percent cooler than the electrons, positrons, and photons. Here afterwards the temperature of the universe means the temperature of the photons.

The temperature is cool enough for the formation of stable nuclei such as helium (4He), however this does not occur immediately. Now, ordinary helium (He4) is a tightly bound nucleus. On the other hand the isotope (an atom having the same number of protons but different number of neutrons) of hydrogen, tritium (3H), and an Isotope of Helium- helium-3 (3He) are much less tightly 2 bound, and heavy hydrogen or deuterium (2H) is especially loosely bound. (It requires about one-tenth as much energy to pull a deuterium nucleus (which contains one proton and one neutron) apart as to pull a single nucleon out of helium nucleus containing two protons and two neutrons). On the 'fourth day' with a temperature of three billion degrees Kelvin, nuclei of deuterium (heavy hydrogen) are blasted apart as soon as they form and there is no chance for the formation of heavier nuclei. Neutrons continue to be transformed into protons, but at a much slower rate than before. The neutron-proton balance is about one-fifth neutrons to four-fifth protons.



FIFTH DAY


Since the 'first day' three minutes and two seconds have elapsed. The temperature of the universe is now one billion degrees Kelvin (109 °K), just about 70 times hotter than the temperature at the center of the sun. The main components of the universe are now photons, neutrinos, and antineutrinos as the electrons and positrons have mostly disappeared. When electron-positron pair annihilate energy is released which increases the temperature of the photons by 35 percent more than that of the neutrinos.

The temperature of the universe is cool enough so that the nuclei of normal helium (Helium-4), helium-3, and tritium hold together. One should remember that when a neutron is free (not bound in the nucleus) it decays after 920 seconds or about 15 minutes and becomes a proton. The collision between neutrons and protons with electrons, neutrinos, and their antiparticles have now come to a stop, but the decay of the free neutron is beginning to be important. The neutron-proton balance is now one-seventh neutrons and six-sevenths protons. This period is called "era of nucleosynthesis", as neutrons are rapidly assembled into helium nuclei, and the neutron-proton ratio is frozen at the value it has at that time.


SIXTH DAY


Since the 'first day' more than half-an-hour or 34 minutes and 40 seconds have elapsed. The temperature of the universe is now 300 million degrees Kelvin or 21 times hotter than the temperature at the center of the sun. Except for the small excess of electrons required to balance the charge of the protons, the electrons and positrons are now completely annihilated. The energy density of the universe is now equivalent to a mass density one-tenth that of ordinary water; of this one-third is in the form of neutrinos and antineutrinos and two-third is in the form of photons. Nuclear processes have ceased, so that the nucleons are mostly either bound into helium nuclei or are free protons (nuclei of hydrogen atoms). There is one electron for each free or bound proton. Since the universe is too hot, stable atoms cannot hold together.

For about one million years, the universe goes on expanding and cooling without anything happening. At that time the temperature would have cooled to the point where electrons and nuclei can form stable atoms. Due to lack of free electrons in the contents of the universe, the universe becomes transparent to radiation. This era is known as the "Decoupling Era" - decoupling of matter and radiation. The electron and-protons combine to form hydrogen and helium gases. The resulting gas would begin under the influence of gravitation to form clumps, which would ultimately condense to form galaxies and stars of the present universe. After another 10 billion years later intelligent beings will emerge to postulate the story of the origin of the universe.

GLOSSARY:

ANTIPARTICLE: A particle with the same mass and spin as another particle, but with equal and opposite electric charge, baryon number, lepton number, and so on. To every particle there is a corresponding antiparticle, except that certain purely neutral particles like the photon and pi-zero meson are their own antiparticles. The antineutrino is the antiparticle of the neutrino; the antiproton is the antiparticle of the proton; and so on. Antimatter consists of the antiprotons, antineutrons, and antielectrons or positrons.

BARYON NUMBER: It is the total number of baryons (neutrons, protons, hyperons) present in a system, minus the total number of antibaryons.

CHARACTERSITIC EXPANSION TIME: Reciprocal of the Hubble constant. Roughly, 100 times the time in which the universe would expand by one percent.

DENSITY: The amount of any quantity per unit volume. The mass density is the mass per unit volume. The energy density is the energy per unit volume; particle density is the number of particles per unit volume.

ELECTRON: The lightest massive elementary particle. All chemical properties of atoms and molecules are determined by electrical interactions of electrons with each other and with the atomic nuclei.

ELECTRON VOLT: A unit of energy, convenient in atomic physics, equal to the energy acquired by one electron in passing through a voltage difference of one volt.

GALAXY: A large gravitationally bound cluster of stars, containing up to 1012 solar masses. A galaxy contains 200 to 300 billion stars.

HUBBLE CONSTANT: It is the ratio of velocity of recession of moderately distant galaxies to their distance, and is denoted H or Ho.

LEPTON: A class of particles, which do not participate in the strong interactions, these are the electron, muon, and neutrino.

LIGHT YEAR: The distance that a light ray travels in one year, equal to 9.4605 X 1012 km

MESONS: A class of strongly interacting particles: pi, K, rho mesons with zero baryon number

PHOTON: The particle associated with a light wave.

PROTON: The positively charge particle found along with neutrons in atomic nuclei.

RECOMBINATION: The formation of helium and hydrogen atoms at a temperature around 3000o K

REST ENERGY: The energy of a particle at rest, which would be released if all the mass of the particle could be annihilated. Given by Einstein's formula E = mc2.

STRONG INTERACTIONS: Responsible for the nuclear forces, which hold protons and neutrons in the atomic nucleus.

THERMAL EQUILIBRIUM: A state in which the rates at which particles enter any given range of velocities, spins, and so on, exactly balances the rates at which they leave. Any physical system will reach thermal equilibrium after a long time if left undisturbed.

THRESHOLD TEMPERATURE: It is the temperature above, which a particle can be freely created out of thermal radiation. It is the rest energy divided by Boltzmann's constant.

source: http://irfi.org/articles/articles_101_15...eation.htm

Scimi
Reply

talibilm
07-22-2016, 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by Steven Caro
Thank you Talibilm for your reply and the link. With respect, the correlation between the Quranic text and science of black holes is the spurious to the utmost degree. There is absolutely no obvious connection at all. Falling stars can be shooting stars, stars falling behind the horizon etc. Piercing star meaning super-massive black hole...are you serious? Light can be piercing. If you think this is proof enough for you then good luck to you. In all honesty I've never seen anything quite as unconvincing as this presented as a truth. Seriously, this is pushing it too far.


OK, This shows that you give benefit of your doubts to your prejudiction ( when you already concluded that the Noble Quran will never be compatible with Science ) and now you are on the path of trying to convince us your views instead of learning as you had claimed earlier which is the trait of Apologetics who enter Islamic sites in the pretext of learning islam, though you may not be one. ;D

I shall give another example what do I mean by Saying the Noble Quran will have multiple meanings that will be understood by its readers in their respective era or ages.

Let see what we call as Cytoplasm which is made up of 80 % of water in three verses (or more ) explain about it as the following

25:54 '' And it is He Who has created man from water, and has appointed for him kindred by blood, and kindred by marriage..........................''

24:45 " Allah has created every [living] creature from water.................................... ''

So Those who were before 1400 years would understand they way they did by taking it as semen and now its clear cut for us here Allah refers to cytoplasm which is more obvious from 25:54 where are Allah mentions again the creation of man through relationship of marriage or sex implying the First part of 25:54 one referred only to genetic creation ie cytoplasm.


Hope you will not ask why Allah did not mention the word '' cytoplasm '' in the Noble Quran explicitly. Lol which I had already explained that Knowledge more than a receiver can take is dangerous.
Science can help us in our Eeman as Quran tells us to ponder over Allah's creation's to understand the SUPERMOST MIGHT of Allah . So all these Telescopes, Microscopes etc, products of science only helps us to fullfill the order of Allah to PONDER over his creations


Similarly science also proves Prophesies of Noble Quran when Allah says we have been given only little knowledge about the soul or spirit of us since Science in spite of 10,000 folds of development still is unable to know about the soul as the per the challenge of Allah swt which will be a open bet untill the last days of the world proving that Science is fallible but not the Noble Quran.

17:85 '' And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."

another example BRAIN FUNCTIONS
For centuries it was thought that the frontal part of the human brain handled vision (simply because it is near the eyes). Today we know that this part handles speech, not vision. The Quran says that disbelievers will be dragged from there liar forehead, that is, the speech part where they utter lies is at the forehead.

Noble Quran 96.16 ''A lying sinful forehead.''


So those people before 1400 years would have understood by 96:15 that it referred to dragging the sinners by the hairs of their fore head but today we understand with the help of science what it meant & both are right.


BUT Do Not Take Science as the only aspect to bring Eeman because science is always changing even some modern concepts about health (latest) like there in nothing called good or bad cholesterol ^o) etc etc (was moon landing a fake ? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...s-baffled.html etc ) but ALLAH' s QURAN is the ''SAME' untill the day of judgement.




Islam is not science or based on science so stop worshipping science but worship the giver of Science, Your Lord Allah alone and thank him for bestowing us knowledge that has made you to go to haj in 24 hours or else it could many months to reach Mecca and so are the other blessings of Allah through it . Caliph Ali (ra) said something like this we did 'ma'sah (ie rubbing of wet hands ) in case we wore leather socks on the top portion ( toes untill ankle) ONLY because we saw Prophet(sal) doing that if I ask my intelligence or conscience I would prefer doing ma'sah the under part of it. So we can use science but do not mix religion with science and as i said Science is fallible but the Noble Quran remains in tact and the same for the past 1400 years from day one of its revelation.
Reply

Zafran
07-22-2016, 01:19 AM
Salaam

The Quran is not a science book - Its a Revelation from God. Science is based on empirical HUMAN evidence that is as accurate as the Human beings.

peace.
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-22-2016, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by Steven Caro
The Quran claims to have scientific knowledge that no one could have known at the time it was written ... embryology is another claim of the Quran and Muslims I have spoken to have got very excited about the Quran mentioning this ...
All of this seems to be the result of a few misunderstandings.

The Quran is a set of moral rules that lists a number of impermissible behaviours that are forbidden onto the believer, who is otherwise free to do as he pleases. The Quran also attributes this list to the One God, Allah, our beloved master, who is the creator of the universe, and who is therefore ultimately responsible for everything that you can find in that universe, obviously including the moral rules governing human behaviour.

Science, on the other hand, is the practice of repeating experiments in order to find counterexamples for statements for which it would conceivably be possible to do so (because these statements are "falsifiable"). So, you can try to boil water and find ways in which to make it NOT boil at 100 degrees. In fact, you could just reduce the atmospherical pressure on the water, and indeed it will boil at lower temperatures. Once you have done that, you can try to add salt to it, and experimentally figure out that this will also affect the new temperature at which water boils. And so on. Ad nauseam.

The question could now arise if it makes sense to experimentally test our rules of morality?

Well, not really, because moral rules must always be categorical.
Moral rules never explain why exactly they exist, or what particular goal they would want to achieve.

Immanuel Kant famously explained in his Kritik der praktischen Vernunft that a system of non-categorical, hypothetical moral rules could not possibly function, because constructing such system would require access to what would later be termed the Theory of Everything. It is trivial to prove that we will never have access to this theory.

For example, there is no explainable reason why we are supposed NOT to bear false witness. This rule is simply categorical. You accept it or you don't. That is all that there is to say to it. Every possible explanation for this moral rule, would be incomplete.

Therefore, there is simply nothing to test experimentally in morality.

In fact, the reverse is also true. As soon as a moral rule explains why exactly it exists or what goal that it would want to achieve, you also know that it is a false moral rule. If you could experimentally test a moral rule -- because it would mention a hypothetical goal -- then you also automatically know that the rule itself is in violation of the meta-rules concerning morality. If science is applicable to a rule, it cannot possibly be a valid moral rule.

This is the same as stating that morality can only be revealed.

Consequently, anybody who sees a conflict between religion and science, is someone who does not understand the true nature of either, or of both.
Reply

Steven Caro
07-22-2016, 09:33 AM
At Talibilm you wrote 'you are on the path of trying to convince us your views instead of learning as you had claimed earlier which is the trait of Apologetics who enter Islamic sites in the pretext of learning islam, though you may not be one'

I am certainly not trying to convince you of anything. I haven't stated anything but have merely questioned what you have presented to me. Is this allowed? If I cannot accept what you present to me as true, is that okay with you? As a fellow human being, am I allowed to question and possibly criticise when I see something that I disagree with? I understand the unity of the divine and seek it. Islam claims so many things and I feel I should ask if I have doubt. Is this not the wise approach? If the answers don't satisfy then is that ok with you? If your efforts to convince me are futile then so be it. Can we live with that? Can you live with that? If I became a Christian, is that okay with you?
Reply

ResearchScholar
07-22-2016, 01:21 PM
Quranic verse

Allah (SWT) says: “Or (the unbelievers’ state) is like the layers of darkness in a deep sea covered by waves topped by waves, topped by clouds: Layers of darkness, one above another. If a man stretches his hand, he can hardly see it. For any to whom Allah gives no light, there is no light.”(Quran 24: 40)

The Qur’an mentions that the deep sea is covered by waves: “Or like the layers of darkness in a lujji sea topped by waves”. The Verse mentions that there are other waves atop the first waves. Allah (SWT) says: “covered by waves topped by waves...” This is a characteristic of the sea in that it has two types of waves atop one another. They are not successive waves in one place but simultaneous waves, the second type atop the first. The verse states that over these waves, which cover the deep sea, there are other waves. Allah (SWT) says: “topped by clouds.”These other waves are none but the waves at the surface of the sea that must cover the first waves.

Scientific news

ScienceDaily (March 7, 2010): Tides, Earth's Rotation Among Sources of Giant Underwater Waves
Scientists at the University of Rhode Island are gaining new insight into the mechanisms that generate huge, steep underwater waves that occur between layers of warm and cold water in coastal regions of the world's oceans.

David Farmer, a physical oceanographer and dean of the URI Graduate School of Oceanography, together with student Qiang Li, said that large amplitude, nonlinear internal waves can reach heights of 150 meters or more in the South China Sea, and the effects they have on surface wave fields ensure that they are readily observable from space.

Farmer and Li are reporting results of their research at the Ocean Sciences Meeting of the American Geophysical Union in Portland, Ore.

"The large waves in the South China Sea have attracted a fair bit of attention in recent years," Farmer said, "but much of this has been directed at the interaction of the waves with the sloping continental shelf of mainland China where they break, overturn and produce intense mixing. Our focus is on the way in which they are generated in Luzon Strait, between Taiwan and the Philippines, and the way they evolve as they propagate westwards across the deep ocean basin of the South China Sea."

Farmer and Li studied the evolution of large internal waves occurring at tidal periods generated by currents traversing submarine ridges in Luzon Strait. As these waves travel west through the South China Sea, they steepen and evolve into packets of steep, energetic waves occurring at periods of 20-30 minutes. It is these energetic short period waves that modulate the ocean surface roughness, making their presence observable from satellites in space.

The URI scientists' observations showed that the Earth's rotation modifies internal waves as they travel cross the deep basin. This effect mainly influences the internal waves that form on the 24-hour period of diurnal tides, dispersing the energy and inhibiting the steepening process. Internal waves that form on the semi-diurnal tides are not affected in this way, are more readily steepened and then break into the energetic, short period waves.

Farmer and Li studied internal waves in the South China Sea using pressure equipped inverted echo-sounders, instruments developed by scientists at the University of Rhode Island. From the seafloor, the device transmits an acoustic pulse and then listens for the echo from the sea surface. Sound travels faster through warm water than it does through cold water, so changes in the echo delay allow measurement of the thickness of the warm surface layer, enabling the shape and size of passing internal waves to be recorded.

According to Farmer, nonlinear internal waves impact the ocean in many ways: stirring up sediment on the sea floor, creating hazards to offshore engineering structures, interfering with submarine navigation, and greatly affecting propagation of underwater sound. Internal waves also appear to have significant, if not fully understood, biological impacts, and in shallow water environments they can mix water masses and modify coastal circulation.
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-22-2016, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by ResearchScholar
Quranic verse
Allah (SWT) says: “Or (the unbelievers’ state) is like the layers of darkness in a deep sea covered by waves topped by waves, topped by clouds: Layers of darkness, one above another. If a man stretches his hand, he can hardly see it. For any to whom Allah gives no light, there is no light.”(Quran 24: 40)
Scientific news
...
As you know, the Salafists reject the Kalam ("speculative theology").

Seeking scientific statements in the Quran is a possibly even worse practice than speculative theology.

For a starters, scientific statements are merely falsifiable. Many of them will eventually be falsified. Existing scientific knowledge is considered to be at least partially invalid and preferably to be replaced by better knowledge. It is called "scientific progress". That process would end up falsifying the Quran too.

Secondly, statements in the Quran were not experimentally tested in the Quran. So, it can never be the same method. That is normal, because testing experimentally was not even the purpose of the Quran.

Thirdly, producing falsifiable statements is a relatively weak method ("science"). We would never use this method, if we could actually prove these statements ("mathematics"). But then again, it would not be good for the Quran to contain mathematics either, because this field is notoriously incomplete; which is also a serious weakness.

The One God would not use our weak human methods for anything. It is not possible to use these weak methods to do something like creating the universe. ;-)

I think that I begin to understand why the Salafists no longer like the Kalam. This way of thinking is not fruitful at all ...
Reply

talibilm
07-22-2016, 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by Steven Caro
At Talibilm you wrote 'you are on the path of trying to convince us your views instead of learning as you had claimed earlier which is the trait of Apologetics who enter Islamic sites in the pretext of learning islam, though you may not be one'

I am certainly not trying to convince you of anything. I haven't stated anything but have merely questioned what you have presented to me. Is this allowed? If I cannot accept what you present to me as true, is that okay with you? As a fellow human being, am I allowed to question and possibly criticise when I see something that I disagree with? I understand the unity of the divine and seek it. Islam claims so many things and I feel I should ask if I have doubt. Is this not the wise approach? If the answers don't satisfy then is that ok with you? If your efforts to convince me are futile then so be it. Can we live with that? Can you live with that? If I became a Christian, is that okay with you?
Okay and I always quote this verse http://legacy.quran.com/2/256
Reply

Scimitar
07-22-2016, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
As you know, the Salafists reject the Kalam ("speculative theology").

Seeking scientific statements in the Quran is a possibly even worse practice than speculative theology.

For a starters, scientific statements are merely falsifiable. Many of them will eventually be falsified. Existing scientific knowledge is considered to be at least partially invalid and preferably to be replaced by better knowledge. It is called "scientific progress". That process would end up falsifying the Quran too.

Secondly, statements in the Quran were not experimentally tested in the Quran. So, it can never be the same method. That is normal, because testing experimentally was not even the purpose of the Quran.

Thirdly, producing falsifiable statements is a relatively weak method ("science"). We would never use this method, if we could actually prove these statements ("mathematics"). But then again, it would not be good for the Quran to contain mathematics either, because this field is notoriously incomplete; which is also a serious weakness.

The One God would not use our weak human methods for anything. It is not possible to use these weak methods to do something like creating the universe. ;-)

I think that I begin to understand why the Salafists no longer like the Kalam. This way of thinking is not fruitful at all ...
You should read al Ghazali's Incoherences of the Philosophers.

You may do intellectual cartwheels, linguistic gymnastic and end up doing that metaphorical and metaphysical U-turn by the time you reach the end :)

Scimi
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