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profetumoldovei
08-10-2016, 10:48 PM
Hello. I am new to islam. I want to know what muslim doctrine is on cherishing saints of christians. What is the muslim doctrine on, for example, Saint Stephen the Great (PBUH)?
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drac16
08-11-2016, 03:47 AM
We don't revere saints of other religions. Besides, they have a different understanding of what makes someone righteous. For muslims, being righteous means to adhere to Tawheed and worship of God.

"O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous" (surah 2:21)

Christians don't worship Allah alone-- they associate a son to Allah. Why on earth would you even want to revere someone like a christian "saint", who commited shirk all the time and is not righteous? all of the christian so-called saints are inferior to even the newest of muslims, because muslims worship Allah alone, thereby making a muslim righteous and the so-called saints unrighteous. Stephen the Great's path only leads to Hell.
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Zafran
08-11-2016, 04:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by drac16
We don't revere saints of other religions. Besides, they have a different understanding of what makes someone righteous. For muslims, being righteous means to adhere to Tawheed and worship of God.

"O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous" (surah 2:21)

Christians don't worship Allah alone-- they associate a son to Allah. Why on earth would you even want to revere someone like a christian "saint", who commited shirk all the time and is not righteous? all of the christian so-called saints are inferior to even the newest of muslims, because muslims worship Allah alone, thereby making a muslim righteous and the so-called saints unrighteous. Stephen the Great's path only leads to Hell.
How do you know that? Saints of the past could have been worshiping God only.
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drac16
08-11-2016, 04:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
How do you know that? Saints of the past could have been worshiping God only.
We're talking about christian saints in this thread. Christians do not worship God alone -- they worship Isa [peace be upon him].
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Abz2000
08-11-2016, 10:10 AM
If they served Allah in truth and sincerity according to the knowledge they had, and didn't reject any of the messengers and didn't purposefully "turn a blind eye" to the messages of Allah and to the messengers, they would have been muslims.

I find the events surrounding joan of arc (the jihadi) and subsequent court trials to be very intriguing despite the level of knowledge that she appeared to be upon and feel that Allah was organizing events in a subtle way based upon circumstances and sincerity with a master plan in place.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

The trial for*heresy*was politically motivated. The tribunal was composed entirely of pro-English and Burgundian clerics, and overseen by English commanders including the Duke of Bedford and the Earl of Warwick.[63]Legal proceedings commenced on 9 January 1431 at*Rouen, the seat of the English occupation government.[64]*The procedure was suspect on a number of points, which would later provoke criticism of the tribunal by the chief inquisitor who investigated the trial after the war.[65]Under ecclesiastical law, Bishop Cauchon lacked*jurisdiction*over the case.

Cauchon owed his appointment to his partisan support of the English government, which financed the trial. The low standard of evidence used in the trial also violated inquisitorial rules.

Clerical notary Nicolas Bailly, who was commissioned to collect testimony against Joan, could find no adverse evidence.
Without such evidence the court lacked grounds to initiate a trial.
Opening a trial anyway, the court also violated ecclesiastical law by denying Joan the right to a legal adviser.

In addition, stacking the tribunal entirely with pro-English clergy violated the medieval Church's requirement that heresy trials be judged by an impartial or balanced group of clerics.

Upon the opening of the first public examination, Joan complained that those present were all partisans against her and asked for "ecclesiastics of the French side" to be invited in order to provide balance. This request was denied.


The trial record contains statements from Joan that the eyewitnesses later said astonished the court, since she was an illiterate peasant and yet was able to evade the theological pitfalls the tribunal had set up to entrap her. The transcript's most famous exchange is an exercise in subtlety:
"Asked if she knew she was in God's grace, she answered, 'If I am not, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me.'"
The question is a scholarly trap. Church doctrine held that no one could be certain of being in God's grace.
If she had answered yes, then she would have been charged with heresy. If she had answered no, then she would have confessed her own guilt.
The court notary Boisguillaume later testified that at the moment the court heard her reply, "Those who were interrogating her were stupefied."



--------


The circumstances surrounding the kangaroo trial constantly bring our illuminated sister Aafia Siddiqui to my mind.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aafia_Siddiqui

Explaining why the US may have chosen to charge her as they did, rather than for her alleged terrorism,*Bruce Hoffman, professor of security studies at Georgetown University, said:*There’s no intelligence data that needs to be introduced, no sources and methods that need to be risked. It’s a good old-fashioned crime; it's the equivalent of a 1920s gangster with a tommy gun.
A lawyer for Siddiqui, Elaine Whitfield Sharp, expressed scepticism regarding both terrorism and assault charges:*I think it's interesting that they make all these allegations about the dirty bombs and other items she supposedly had, but they haven't charged her with anything relating to terrorism... I would urge people to consider her as innocent unless the government proves otherwise.

A three-person defence team was hired by the Pakistani embassy to supplement her two existing public defenders, but Siddiqui refused to co-operate with them.
She tried to dismiss her lawyers because they were Jewish.
She said the case against her was a Jewish conspiracy, and demanded that no Jews be allowed on the jury.
She demanded that all prospective jurors be*DNA-tested, and excluded from the jury at her trial "if they have a*Zionist*or Israeli background ... they are all mad at me ... I have a feeling everyone here is them—subject to genetic testing. They should be excluded, if you want to be fair."
Siddiqui's legal team said, in regard to her comments, that her incarceration had damaged her mind.
Prior to her trial, Siddiqui said she was innocent of all charges. She maintained she could prove she was innocent, but refused to do so in court.

On 11 January 2010, Siddiqui told the Judge that she would not co-operate with her attorneys, and wanted to fire them. She said she did not trust the Judge, and added, "I'm boycotting the trial, just to let all of you know. There's too many injustices." She then put her head down on the defence table as the prosecution proceeded.

-------------


With all that said, those who live and die know what they know of their circumstances and situation and Allah knows the depths of their circumstances, situations, intentions and deeds, we would do well to consider the guidance we have received and humble ourselves before the Creator and Master of the universe who has no ascendant, descendent, partner, counterpart or demi-counterpart and to whom all things return.


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M.I.A.
08-11-2016, 12:59 PM
I googled it..

Saint Stephen, christianties first protomatyre..

sort of like an mlk or Malcolm x.. very strange..

I can understand how it could happen...

although its not ideal at the moment.. bin laden :/

there are always rightly guided men, but i am not one to understand who is and who isn't.

best staying clear Imo.
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LaSorcia
08-11-2016, 01:25 PM
Just wondering, if Christians are guilty of shirk, why does the Prophet (PBUH) say we are monotheists?
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aaj
08-11-2016, 01:34 PM
Stephen crushed the pagan counterreaction to Christianity, forcibly converting the so-called Black Hungarians after their failed rebellion. The Battle of Vaslui (also referred as Battle of Podul Înalt or the Battle of Racova) was fought on January 10, 1475, against the Ottoman Beylerbeyi of Rumelia, Hadım Suleiman Pasha. Stephen inflicted on the Ottomans a decisive defeat that has been described as "the greatest ever secured by the Cross against Islam,"[5] with casualties, according to Venetian and Polish records, reaching beyond 40,000 on the Ottoman side.
- wiki

Why would Muslims revere a christian king who forced people to convert to Christianity and waged a war against the Muslims, killing our Muslim brothers? He was a cross worshiping Christian who most likely went to hell like all those before and after him who engage in shirk (associating partners with Allah).

There are so saints in Islam as well. These were actual righteous people of the past that people elevated to sainthood. The misguides sufis (sufi sect) engage in this mostly but so do misguided Muslims. But there is no sainthood in Islam, so they too are misguided in following that path.
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M.I.A.
08-11-2016, 01:40 PM
...wow, I read it as a parish minding outspoken early adopter of Christianity.. stoned to death by the Jews.

don't believe the Internet :/
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greenhill
08-11-2016, 01:44 PM
LaSorcia, that applies to the Trinitarian. I have learnt that not all Christians believe in the concept of Trinity. Elevating Jesus to 'godly' level is shirk.

Was it a hadeeth or a verse from the Quran? (What the prophet (pbuh) said).


:peace:
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LaSorcia
08-11-2016, 01:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill
LaSorcia, that applies to the Trinitarian. I have learnt that not all Christians believe in the concept of Trinity. Elevating Jesus to 'godly' level is shirk.

Was it a hadeeth or a verse from the Quran? (What the prophet (pbuh) said).


:peace:
I'm afraid I don't know. I think it's the Quran, where it's written that Jews, Christians and Sabians (don't know who they are) are monotheists. I think it's talking about marriage?
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aaj
08-11-2016, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LaSorcia
Just wondering, if Christians are guilty of shirk, why does the Prophet (PBUH) say we are monotheists?
I"m not sure of any such statements, but this may help answer your question.

Allah says,
“Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Baqarah 2:62]



The second is the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allaah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Maa’idah 5:69]


The great Imaam Ismaa’eel ibn Katheer, may Allaah have mercy on him, said in his tafseer of the aayah from Soorat al-Baqarah:
“Allaah, may He be exalted, points out that whoever of the previous nations did well and was obedient, will have a good reward, and this will be the case for everyone who follows the Unlettered Prophet [Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the Hour comes.


As far as the Jews are concerning, their faith meant believing in the Tawraat (original Torah) and following the way of Moosa (peace be upon him) until ‘Eesa came, after which whoever continued to follow the Torah and the way of Moosa, and did not leave this and follow ‘Eesa, was doomed. As far as the Christians are concerned, their faith meant believing in the Injeel (original Gospel) and following the laws of ‘Eesa; whoever did this was a believer whose faith was acceptable to Allaah, until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and leave the way of ‘Eesa and the Injeel that he had been following before, was doomed.


The aayah (interpretation of the meaning), “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85] is a statement that Allaah will not accept any way or deed from anyone, after sending His Final Messenger, except those that are in accordance with the laws of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Prior to this, however, anyone who followed the Prophet of his own time was on the Straight Path of salvation.


Full passage at https://islamqa.info/en/2912
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M.I.A.
08-11-2016, 01:57 PM
I think the above is also mirrored with the inclusion of magiens although the wording is slightly different.

as I badly recall, even the Muslims are told to cease and desist in saying three..
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greenhill
08-11-2016, 02:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by profetumoldovei
Hello. I am new to islam. I want to know what muslim doctrine is on cherishing saints of christians. What is the muslim doctrine on, for example, Saint Stephen the Great (PBUH)?
Welcome to the forum. :D

To your question... muslim aren't supposed to even idolise prophet Muhammad.

We love and respect all the prophets (peace be upon them all) that brought the message to worship Allah swt. Only, as our time to be living is after the final prophet, our laws follow his, as for those who lived post other prophets.

We cannot accord any special status to people like declaring them saints or having something similar in islam. They become ulama, I guess? That is about it. As judgment of people's status is for Allah alone. The status in islam is the knowledge and fair with it, only while you are alive. In death, it is a different story. The world no longer has any part to play except as witness to your deeds, and the rest, between you and your Maker.

So we emphathise with our prophets (pbuta) for the difficult journey that most had to endure to deliver Allah's message.

The rest, we remember the deeds of certain muslims of the past, nothing more.

Wishing you a great stay.


:peace:
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ardianto
08-11-2016, 03:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
Stephen crushed the pagan counterreaction to Christianity, forcibly converting the so-called Black Hungarians after their failed rebellion. The Battle of Vaslui (also referred as Battle of Podul Înalt or the Battle of Racova) was fought on January 10, 1475, against the Ottoman Beylerbeyi of Rumelia, Hadım Suleiman Pasha. Stephen inflicted on the Ottomans a decisive defeat that has been described as "the greatest ever secured by the Cross against Islam,"[5] with casualties, according to Venetian and Polish records, reaching beyond 40,000 on the Ottoman side.
- wiki

Why would Muslims revere a christian king who forced people to convert to Christianity and waged a war against the Muslims, killing our Muslim brothers? He was a cross worshiping Christian who most likely went to hell like all those before and after him who engage in shirk (associating partners with Allah).

There are so saints in Islam as well. These were actual righteous people of the past that people elevated to sainthood. The misguides sufis (sufi sect) engage in this mostly but so do misguided Muslims. But there is no sainthood in Islam, so they too are misguided in following that path.
You are talking about different person. Saint Stephen the Great who cherished by Roman Catholic and few other church denomination lived in the first century, long time before king Stephen that referred in your post. Saint Stephen is known as the first martyr in Christianity.
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aaj
08-11-2016, 04:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
You are talking about different person. Saint Stephen the Great who cherished by Roman Catholic and few other church denomination lived in the first century, long time before king Stephen that referred in your post. Saint Stephen is known as the first martyr in Christianity.
Ah i see. Shiek google failed me then lol

If he was the first maytr then he was part of early Christianity. IF that is the case then what his fate was at his death depends on if he was among the real followers of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) or if he was among those who started the trinity concept.

Regardless, as stated by others. sainthood is not something that is part of Islam, and especially not figures of other religions.
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Search
08-11-2016, 06:00 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
How do you know that? Saints of the past could have been worshiping God only.
format_quote Originally Posted by drac16
We're talking about christian saints in this thread. Christians do not worship God alone -- they worship Isa [peace be upon him].
I agree with @Zafran. I'd heard a lecture of Shaykh Hamza Yusuf in which he'd relayed how some early martyrs' bodies were preserved as if they had been buried fresh. Yet we know in Islam that is a sign of how Allah refuses to let sincere persons' bodies disintegrate in the earth. Scientists tried to explain that phenomena in saying that there were probably advanced techniques employed to preserve the bodies. However, that is their best conjecture to explain the phenomena. What we know and believe is certain that all peoples have been taught the same Message, which is to submit to God. And of those, there are people who are not only on the Straight Path but are purified from their egos, and some of them were martyred in the path of God.

Islam is what Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) brought to us, but it is essentially in its undiluted form strict monotheism, which has been preached throughout every century, every age, every era since Time immemorial from when Adam (peace be upon him) was sent to the earth with his wife Eve (peace be upon her). Very early Christians submitted to the Message that Jesus (peace be upon him) brought, which was to submit to God, and did believe him to be a man like them and one of the mightiest messengers of Allah.

We have to clarify for Muslims what "saints" mean within the realm of Islam. Saintly persons refers to persons who have successfully purified themselves as per the ayat (verse) of the Quran (87:14) that only "those will prosper who purify themselves."

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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Zafran
08-11-2016, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
Ah i see. Shiek google failed me then lol

If he was the first maytr then he was part of early Christianity. IF that is the case then what his fate was at his death depends on if he was among the real followers of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) or if he was among those who started the trinity concept.

Regardless, as stated by others. sainthood is not something that is part of Islam, and especially not figures of other religions.
salaam

last time i checked sainthood was part of Islam (wali Allah?) - The disciples of Jesus pbuh are mentioned in the Quran as well I believe.
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islamirama
08-12-2016, 02:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)



I'd heard a lecture of Shaykh Hamza Yusuf in which he'd relayed how some early martyrs' bodies were preserved as if they had been buried fresh.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
I would suggest not listening to that deviant sufi if you want to keep your aqeedah in tact, unless you're a sufi yourself.
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aaj
08-12-2016, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

last time i checked sainthood was part of Islam (wali Allah?) - The disciples of Jesus pbuh are mentioned in the Quran as well I believe.
wa'alaikum as'salaam

Wali Allah (friend of Allah) is different than "sainthood".

According to the Christianity, a saint,aka hallow, is a person who is recognized as having an exceptional degree of holiness or likeness to God.


But it's different in Islam.

It is not possible to be certain that a particular individual is one of the awliya’ of Allaah, because achieving true faith and piety are matters of the heart that are hidden, and people cannot find out about them. Hence it is possible to think that someone is likely to be a wali, but it is impossible to be certain.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

All Muslims should measure the deeds of those who are claimed to be awliya’ by that which is in the Qur’aan and Sunnah. If they are in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, then we hope that he is one of the awliya’ or close friends of Allaah, but if they go against the Qur’aan and Sunnah, then he is not one of the awliya’ of Allaah. Allaah has mentioned in His Book the fair standards by which His awliya’ may be known, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“No doubt! Verily, the Awliyaa’ of Allaah, no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve.

Those who believed, and used to fear Allaah much (by abstaining from evil deeds and sins and by doing righteous deeds)”

[Yoonus 10:62-63]

Whoever is a believer and is pious is a close friend of Allaah, and whoever is not like that is not a close friend of Allaah. If he has some faith and piety then he is a friend of Allaah to some extent.

Nevertheless we cannot be certain about a specific person, but we say in general that everyone who believes and is pious is a friend of Allaah (wali).

https://islamqa.info/en/32470
So there are no special "saints" that you go to for help. It is common in Indian subcontinent for people to go to shrines of dead people to ask for help, make dua, even do postrations there. All this is contrary to Islamic Teachings.

Duaa and asking for help are forms of worship, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And your Lord said: ‘Invoke Me [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism) and ask Me for anything] I will respond to your (invocation). Verily, those who scorn My worship [i.e. do not invoke Me, and do not believe in My Oneness, (Islamic Monotheism)] they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!’” [Ghaafir 40:40]

So it is not permissible to offer du’aa’ to or call upon anyone except Allaah. But the evidence indicates that it is permissible to ask another person for some things, but that is subject to two conditions :

1- That it should be something possible and the person should be able to do it, such as asking a person to give you money when you are in need of it. But if it is something that he is not able to do, then it is not permissible for you to ask him, such as asking a man to let you be one of the people of Paradise, because he is not able to do that even if he is a righteous and pious man.

2- The person who is asked should be capable, such as one who is alive. It is not permissible to call upon the dead, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you [Faatir 35:13-14]

https://islamqa.info/en/8928
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Scimitar
08-12-2016, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by profetumoldovei
Hello. I am new to islam. I want to know what muslim doctrine is on cherishing saints of christians. What is the muslim doctrine on, for example, Saint Stephen the Great (PBUH)?
Check out the story of Bahira the Monk and the young Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

You may like that one.

Scimi
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Abz2000
08-12-2016, 07:20 PM
I just came across an informative really short documentary on Shaikh Usama (may Allah be pleased with his efforts for Allah's sake and grant him a high status amongs the martyrs in paradise, and ease the burden on those who remain on his family who endured and continue to endure much):



And just in case of any misconceptions, he was falsely accused by the kaafir media on numerous accusations and we all know by now that 9/11 was a staged act carried out by members of the american government, i have more reason to believe him than the crooks in washington.

Beautiful Quran recitation here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcX9z-Pd_Nc
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Abz2000
08-12-2016, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Check out the story of Bahira the Monk and the young Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

You may like that one.

Scimi
Brother scimi, howdy? You seem to be hiding a lot recently :) wonder what you're up to now, please fix the link.
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Zafran
08-13-2016, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
So there are no special "saints" that you go to for help. It is common in Indian subcontinent for people to go to shrines of dead people to ask for help, make dua, even do postrations there. All this is contrary to Islamic Teachings.
Or do Ziyrat which is a normal Islamic practice and furthermore the dargahs can be found in every Muslim country and not just in the subcontinent. Of course the salafis have other opinions.
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Abz2000
08-13-2016, 01:51 AM
The benefit of shah jalal ad-deen al yemeni's shrine in sylhet means that we visit it and tell our kids his story, his jihad, his daawah etc.
it's haram to prostrate to graves but recommended to visit them and to pray for those who spent their lives in Allah's service and through whom Allah guided our idol worshipping and people worshipping people.

I'm not gonna blow up the moon just coz some idiots worship it, but idols which are made for the purpose of worship are a different equation.

I can see how easily we would have forgotten the history of shah jalal since they don't teach it in the secular school curicculum despite it being a defining part of Bangladesh's history. He had one huge sword though and it's also on display.
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aaj
08-13-2016, 04:01 AM
You do not need shrines to tell stories. How many shrines of the shahabas do we have? Shrines and statues are what lead people to shirk.
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Zafran
08-14-2016, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
You do not need shrines to tell stories. How many shrines of the shahabas do we have? Shrines and statues are what lead people to shirk.
We had many in Saudi arabia Jannat al Baqi etc etc until the Saudis destroyed them - Lets not forget the prophets Dome. I agree with Abz2000 - worshiping the shrines is shirk but commemorating the greats of Islamic history and visiting there resting place is is good way of remembering them and there sacrifices.
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