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Mustafa16
08-31-2016, 01:24 PM
I haven't had an Islamic education in a long time, and I was just wondering....what proof is there that Allah swt exists? some atheist scientists (such as Stephen hawking) say that the universe has always existed and so there is no need for a creator.....also, it is quite hard to refute evolution.......what proof is there of Allah being the creator? what does tawheed consist of? I heard some people take tawheed to an extreme, and others don't take it seriously enough.......could someone help me out?
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Serinity
08-31-2016, 01:39 PM
:salam:

Those who say The Universe is infinite, has committed shirk/has deified the Universe. I.e. made godified it. Audhu billah. Realise that.

They say "How can Allah be Ever-living, without beginning or end?" I ask: "How do you believe that the Universe is ever-lasting, while it is still expanding? Since it is still expanding becoming wider, that must indicate the fact that it was SMALLER before, so there must have been a time where it did not exist, not even time. So why do you believe the Universe is without beginning? And how can you believe such a thing?"

Tawheed is to believe in the Oneness of Allah, His Attributes, and Tawheed of Worship (worship being for only Allah)

There is Tawheed of Lordship, Tawheed of Worship, and Tawheed of Attributes.

Tawheed can be explained by dividing it into three categories as follows.

1) Tawheed ar-Ruboobiyyah

This means to single out Allaah for His lordship. Allaah is the sole creator, provider and sustainer in charge of all the affairs of the creation.

2) Tawheed al-Uloohiyyah

Also known as Tawheed al-Ibaadah. This means that all worship is directed soley for Allaah. It includes prayer, dua, trust, slaughtering etc. All acts of obedience and worship are a means of getting closer to Allah so all acts must done for His sake.

3) Tawheed al-Asmaa' was-sifaat

This is where we affirm Allaah's names and attributes as Allaah affirmed for Himself in the the Qur'aan, and those affirmed by the Prophet Muhammad . These names and attributes are taken without likening any of them to the creation. We just accept them as they are without asking what, how, why etc.

I copied this from another side. may Allah reward the one who posted it. Ameen.
may Allah :swt: guide us in all of our affairs. Ameen.
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aaj
08-31-2016, 02:09 PM
Brother,

Read the translation of the Quran. IT will answer many of your questions. Read it and ponder over it, like verses such as this:

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” (Quran 21:30)

First the scientists thought universe always exist then they came up with big bang theory and now they say it was always there. Seems like scientists can't make up their mind.

This supports both theories,
1. the universe always existed. The word "always" is relative here.
2. the big bang theory when they were split asunder (in a big bag).

It also supports are more recent theory that all living creates came from water.

The problem with science is that it is limited to human's understanding and knowledge. So nothing is as concrete. It starts out as a a hypothesis (an educated guess) which then is validated through some experimentation (tests) and then it is passed on as "facts". While some of those facts stick around longer than others, many do change as humans advance further in their knowledge and understanding.

If you read the Quran, you will see the facts listed there wont' change. People may not have understood the expanding of the universe or all life coming from water all the previous centuries but today with technology we can confirm that to be true and have enough understanding to comprehend that. Quran also says the universe will contract and roll back one day. The scientists are just starting touch that topic and think about that. They are not quite there to comprehend that fully. So all that knowledge in the Quran has to have a divine source, unless one believes aliens from the future came and wrote it with all that advance knowledge?

anyways, check out this link inshallah:
https://www.islamreligion.com/articl...g-bang-theory/

and read the Quran :)
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OmAbdullah
08-31-2016, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Mustafa16
I haven't had an Islamic education in a long time, and I was just wondering....what proof is there that Allah swt exists? some atheist scientists (such as Stephen hawking) say that the universe has always existed and so there is no need for a creator.....also, it is quite hard to refute evolution.......what proof is there of Allah being the creator? what does tawheed consist of? I heard some people take tawheed to an extreme, and others don't take it seriously enough.......could someone help me out?

Your presence on this earth is the greatest proof (for you) of the existence of Al-Mighty God Allah WHO has created you in due proportion and is sustaining you.

Ponder sincerely and seriously on the things that you can see and those that you cannot see but you feel them. Your wisdom shall help you to know your CREATOR, your Lord and your God as it (the wisdom) had helped the Great Prophet Ibraheem (Ibraham) alihi salaam.


Just think about the air and oxygen gas in air which you and all mankind and animals are using constantly but it is not ending. Without Oxygen none can live for more than 4 minutes. If it was possible for man, they would have enclosed it in cylinders and would have deprived all to die. But it is the Power and Wisdom as well as Fore Knowledge of the very Kind Creator Who arranged such a huge and free supply of Oxygen for your and our existence!!! Then the Same Creator managed the refreshing of oxygen through photosynthesis in the green leaves of plants in the sunlight. So Carbon di-oxide is constantly utilized in the green leaves to make food and give free oxygen back to the air, all for our benefits. "Then which of the Blessings of your LORD will you deny???


If you still are not satisfied then explain the wisdom that you have, and also the wisdom that is used for the numerous processes like carbon di-oxide cycle and photosynthesis which are working for our existence!!!
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crimsontide06
08-31-2016, 02:24 PM
God created the universe, evolution, and HOW it works......

/thread
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OmAbdullah
08-31-2016, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
God created the universe, evolution, and HOW it works......

/thread


No place for evolutin in Islam. The evolution theory has been proven false by the modern science.
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crimsontide06
08-31-2016, 09:52 PM
??? Science has proved evolution to be true. Evolution is the change of organisms over time to adapt to their environment.
Originally Posted by nbegam
No place for evolutin in Islam. The evolution theory has been proven false by the modern science.
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Eric H
09-01-2016, 04:48 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Mustafa16;

some atheist scientists (such as Stephen hawking) say that the universe has always existed and so there is no need for a creator.
If we are talking science, then where is the proof to back this statement up, how did the universe always exist and grow in complexity without guidance?

also, it is quite hard to refute evolution
Evolution is not the biggest question, explain how life started and evolved without God. Every generation that has died so far; has never had total proof that God exists, it is down to faith and trust. Allah chooses whom he wills, we just have to accept this calling.
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kritikvernunft
09-01-2016, 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by Mustafa16
what proof is there that Allah swt exists?
The question is quite tricky, because it depends on what exactly the terms true, false, and proof mean. One of the greatest breakthroughs in mathematics in the 20th century are Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorems:

Theorem 1: In every sufficiently complex axiomatic system there are statements that are true but not provable.
Theorem 2: If a sufficiently complex axiomatic system claims its own consistency, it is inconsistent.

You will find these results in Kurt Gödel's original 1931 paper On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica and Related Systems I. as Theorem VI and Theorem XI. Generally spoken, the values true, provable, and falsifiable (=testable) are distinct truth statuses in an algebraic lattice that successfully implements the absorption law. They are not the same. This surprisingly corresponds with the classification in Immanuel Kant's Kritik der reinen Vernunft:


  1. true: analytical a priori
  2. provable [math]: synthetic a priori
  3. testable (=falsifiable) [science]: synthetic a posteriori


Therefore, the question What proof is there? is literally a request for an axiomatic system in which you can derive the existence of a first cause from basic statements that are actually unrelated. Note that provable never means that the basic statements would be true. Axioms have no truth status at all.

But then again, such axiomatic system does indeed exist. In his seminal work Physics, Aristotle derives that there is exactly one attraction point at the origin of the universe for the repeated application of the causality function.

Aristotle, Physics, book VIII, part 5: If then everything that is caused must be caused by something, and the cause must either itself be caused by something else or not, and in the former case there must be some first cause that is not itself caused by anything else, while in the case of the immediate cause being of this kind there is no need of an intermediate cause that is also caused (for it is impossible that there should be an infinite series of causes, each of which is itself caused by something else, since in an infinite series there is no first term)-if then everything that is caused is caused by something, and the first cause is caused but not by anything else, it much be caused by itself.

Aristotle, Physics, book VIII, part 6: It is sufficient to assume only one cause, the first of uncaused things, which being eternal will be the principle of causality to everything else.

The belief in a first cause is therefore equivalent to the belief in the [1] finitude of time, [2] generalized causality, [3] strictly-ordered consequentiality, and [4] the impossibility of supertasks. Any axiomatic system that rests on these four axioms will automatically derive that there is exactly one first cause for the universe, located at the origin of timespace. Note, however, that this statement is only provable in such underlying axiomatic system.

True means something entirely different. In terms of Tarski's undefinability theorem, pronouncing a true statement in a particular sufficiently powerful object language amounts to expressing one of its own construction theorems that would otherwise be expressed in its metalanguage. Such statement is always true but not provable in the object language. In fact, a statement cannot be simultaneously provable and true in the same axiomatic system. That would cause an ambiguity in its underlying algebraic lattice and result in a violation of the absorption law. Hence, it is the one or the other.
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OmAbdullah
09-02-2016, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
??? Science has proved evolution to be true. Evolution is the change of organisms over time to adapt to their environment.


1. The most modern science has proved it false with logic eplanation. Evolution has no bases, it doesn't have any law or principle. It is absolutely baseless and false.


2. You say that your religion is Islam. Then you must know that you have to believe in all facts given in the Holy Quraan and the Sunnah without the least doubt. The Holy Quraan has informed us that mankind was made as perfect human being in the shape of Adam alaihi salaam. He was the first human being and from him and his wife the race of all human beings started and continued until now. So there was no evolution at all. If you don't believe in this fact of the Holy Quraan then you are denying the statement of Allah. This denial of yours is manifest kuffar (unbelief in Islam).


3. The chromosome number of every organism is a fixed number and since the beginning until now it didn't change in the least. Mating between organisms with different chromosome number is not possible. How can then evolution be possible. Think and explain. Not possible. The only possibility is to discard the theory of evolution even on the scientific bases.
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kritikvernunft
09-03-2016, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
Science has proved evolution to be true.
Two glaring errors.

Your statement is in violation of both the definitions for proof and for true.

I have already mentioned the mathematical definitions for both terms, and why exactly provable and true are not the same.
Furthermore, science is not provable but testable (=falsifiable).
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crimsontide06
09-03-2016, 02:15 AM
I honestly do not worry about evolution, how things came to be....etc. God created nature, the universe,cells,science...and how it all works. That should be good enough.
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greenhill
09-03-2016, 03:26 AM
It is the 'finer' things that make me believe.. the consistency of the messages and over the years with better knowledge, how it all fits and binds the way of life.

Incredibly, the story is exactly today as what was promised right from the beginning with the creation of Adam (satan's solemn oath)... how he has sowed doubts.

What makes it even more interesting is that the belief is there despite Allah never in this entire time revealed Himself.

Simply put for me, no man could plan the message and incremental learning for man and it is not a coincident. The Psalm taught tawheed. So people remember Allah. The Torah added the human dynamics (doing unto others what we want others to do unto you) and the Bible added further the concept of 'forgiveness' and with that, the Quran finishes the message with codes on living in a community.

How can the way the message is presented not a sign that it is from a Greater being?

Only, when people stop at any point of the message, it would be always remain incomplete..


:peace:
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kritikvernunft
09-03-2016, 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by Mustafa16
Why do we believe in Allah swt? What proof is there of his existence?
Technically, there are proofs, but they may not mean what you think that they mean. Math only proves if A then B relations. Math does not claim that B would be true. Aristotle famously designed a proof in which A is a set of particular math conditions and B is the Existence of a First Cause, with the term First Cause being a synonym for the singular God. Gödel also designed such proof, with other A conditions. Again, an if A then B proof does NOT prove that B would be true. It just proves that believing A automatically implies believing in B. Math never claims the unconditional truth of any statement B. The entire edifice of math would collapse if it ever did that.

By the way, the statement "Math may prove a conditional statement "if A then B" but will never claim the unconditional truth of any statement B" is true but not provable in math. The statement refers to a construction theorem about math in metamath (metamath is the math about math). Hence, it is true in math, but not provable. It could be provable in metamath.

This is the result of Gödel's and Tarski's theorems. A device that is powerful enough to express statements about its own construction theorems, can indeed express statements about them that will be true but not provable by the device itself. Hence, depending on what model you pick, the existence of the singular God will either be true-but-not-provable or provable-but-not-true in that model. It is impossible to construct a model in which any statement would be provable-and-true.
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keiv
09-03-2016, 12:52 PM
Out of all the things to believe in, Islam is the one that makes the most sense to me. Everyone's belief is based on faith. No different between an Atheist and a Muslim, although Atheists are probably more reluctant to admit that statement. Science hasn't figured everything out. Even if it does, you will find that it is in accordance with Islam, if of course they're willing to admit it. There will always be theories about how things came to be and there will always be disagreements within their own communities about said theories, so even within the scientific community, there is no one answer.

Although there are disagreements about some things within our own communities, in Islam, it's pretty much black and white. Usually, the disagreements come from people who don't agree with <enter topic here> and they try to interpret their own meaning of what something means in order to justify what THEY want, it's pretty much shut down by the majority.

The fact that Islam gets all the hate that it does is another indicator that it's the right path.
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kritikvernunft
09-03-2016, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
Science hasn't figured everything out ...
That is not even the purpose of science.
Science only deals with testable (=falsifiable) statements.
All other statements are not even being investigated by science.
Originally Posted by keiv
about said theories, so even within the scientific community, there is no one answer.
There cannot be an answer in the scientific community to questions that science does not even investigate.
Originally Posted by keiv
The fact that Islam gets all the hate that it does is another indicator that it's the right path.
I also agree with that! ;-)
That is how I discovered the existence of Islam in the first place. People that I did not like at all, started complaining about it! ;-)
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talibilm
09-03-2016, 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by Mustafa16
I haven't had an Islamic education in a long time, and I was just wondering....what proof is there that Allah swt exists? some atheist scientists (such as Stephen hawking) say that the universe has always existed and so there is no need for a creator.....also, it is quite hard to refute evolution.......what proof is there of Allah being the creator? what does tawheed consist of? I heard some people take tawheed to an extreme, and others don't take it seriously enough.......could someone help me out?
Hi, let me reply it with some blunt statements (not for ridiculing you) but to reply you with reason.

Ask yourselves or your Stephen Hawkins , is he or you are really existing ??? You may say yes, and also say 'am visible too '

The difference between You "Mustafa' and Mustafa's DEAD BODY is the Soul . Though your body parts may be in tact but if the soul has left your Body you will be called Just a 'Corpse'' with in minutes after your death, So the greater Value for Mustafa is the invisible thing which you never thought about it, Similarly Allah Exists , running the Universe, The sun , Moon and Earth and all in it and All the Stars, planets IN ITS ORBITS for trillions of years is the Proof for it. Its said if the Earth misses it Orbit just by a few inches ( or foots ) could cause a DRASTIC changes in weather that would kill all on Earth.


The Noble Quran, The Last of The Lord God's, The Creator's Testaments, The Guarded ONE, is the way of life Allah prescribes for the Humans for his successful life in this world and the Hereafter which is a Life for ETERNITY. There is no major Religion after Islam proves that too that THIS IS THE LAST or THE LATEST TESTAMENT (like The most updated latest updated gadget or Power like Nuclear ) THAT WAS SENT WITH THE LAST PROPHET Muhammad :saws: to this Earth.

Study the Noble Quran where Allah calls the sky as something like protective shield for the Earth which is proved by science which says the tons Cosmic dust & garbage if its not filtered or burnt by the atmospheric layers than life on Earth is at stake. Who can narrate better about a Product than its Manufacturer ?? Allah is The Creator of the Cosmos and the Humans.


Here is just a video , one of the many where The Manufacturer, Allah describes just a few among his products among billions.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyigdugrbe8
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