Is Islam based on Biblical teachings?

[dwa2day]

Hi Search
Since you have opened the door to questions I have one that has come to mind seems to be a common thread to many arguments in number of post on this site. Hopefully you would be able to clarify the actual Islamic view.
It is clear that Islam one the one hand is based on the Biblical teachings of the Bibles Prophets, yet at the same time reject the very same Prophets text as corrupt. This is a double standard and contradictory in itself. This in turn ask the question, why cannot Islam simple stand on its own teachings and sacred text such as other faith based religions do?

Regards
Doug

[greenhill]

Hi Search
Since you have opened the door to questions I have one that has come to mind seems to be a common thread to many arguments in number of post on this site. Hopefully you would be able to clarify the actual Islamic view.
It is clear that Islam one the one hand is based on the Biblical teachings of the Bibles Prophets, yet at the same time reject the very same Prophets text as corrupt. This is a double standard and contradictory in itself. This in turn ask the question, why cannot Islam simple stand on its own teachings and sacred text such as other faith based religions do?

Regards
Doug

Let me try.

For me it is a straight forward matter. Because it is a sensitive matter I will treat it with respect mostly bevause it is about our prophets too!.

It all started with the creation of Adam, pbuh resulting in Satan swearing to lead man astray.

So with every prophet sent, Satan set about distorting the messages. Why do you think most prophets had a tough time delivering the Word of Allah? ..(or Eloh in Hebrew?)

Why does the message need to be repeated again and again countless generations if not for Satan's handiwork of leading man astray? They even requested miracles from various prophets to prove as though the words were not true enough. Why were all the successive prophets required after Musa pbuh all the way to Isa pbuh if not for Satan still leading man astray from the Message of Allah.

Up to then, the scriptures were kept by the clerics who were generally taught to read and write. They decided what the general public should know.

The final message, the MOST important of them all as it encapsulated all the previous messages for ALL the followers of the previous Books to now study this, protected from corruption as it is learnt by heart by everyone who can. Not limited to the clerics. So the laws as laid down in the Quran and the words used will never be changed. It was further safeguarded by getting it written and standardised.

Only with the advent of modern computers that other mathematical and numeric 'miracles' are discovered in the Quran. That removal or addition of any single word would not 'add up'..

So the Quran's purpose is that. The prophets of past that delivered their messages did their job as best as they could and were very noble people. Best of humanity. However, the same can't be said of the clerics class of people, who 'administer' the Words of Allah after the prophets have gone, that has been developing since Satan made that vow.

There are many muslims, born muslims mostly that have not willingly of own accord, picked up a Quran to read and understand. The unchanged word of God. How well has Satan kept his words?

Unfortunately, the Psalms, Torah and Bible got seriously 'adjusted'. Hence the difference between us in otherwise as you said, similar in base. The truth is in the that difference.


:peace:

[dwa2day]

Let me try.

For me it is a straight forward matter. Because it is a sensitive matter I will treat it with respect mostly bevause it is about our prophets too!.

It all started with the creation of Adam, pbuh resulting in Satan swearing to lead man astray.

So with every prophet sent, Satan set about distorting the messages. Why do you think most prophets had a tough time delivering the Word of Allah? ..(or Eloh in Hebrew?)

Why does the message need to be repeated again and again countless generations if not for Satan's handiwork of leading man astray? They even requested miracles from various prophets to prove as though the words were not true enough. Why were all the successive prophets required after Musa pbuh all the way to Isa pbuh if not for Satan still leading man astray from the Message of Allah.

Up to then, the scriptures were kept by the clerics who were generally taught to read and write. They decided what the general public should know.

The final message, the MOST important of them all as it encapsulated all the previous messages for ALL the followers of the previous Books to now study this, protected from corruption as it is learnt by heart by everyone who can. Not limited to the clerics. So the laws as laid down in the Quran and the words used will never be changed. It was further safeguarded by getting it written and standardised.

Only with the advent of modern computers that other mathematical and numeric 'miracles' are discovered in the Quran. That removal or addition of any single word would not 'add up'..

So the Quran's purpose is that. The prophets of past that delivered their messages did their job as best as they could and were very noble people. Best of humanity. However, the same can't be said of the clerics class of people, who 'administer' the Words of Allah after the prophets have gone, that has been developing since Satan made that vow.

There are many muslims, born muslims mostly that have not willingly of own accord, picked up a Quran to read and understand. The unchanged word of God. How well has Satan kept his words?

Unfortunately, the Psalms, Torah and Bible got seriously 'adjusted'. Hence the difference between us in otherwise as you said, similar in base. The truth is in the that difference.


:peace:

Hi Greenhill
Thank you for your explanation, however there are part I do not understand for example:-
“There are many muslims, born muslims mostly that have not willingly of own accord, picked up a Quran to read and understand.” I understand this as a Muslim you are forced to read accept the Quran. However this has nothing to do with my question so it is important just sad to know that as a Muslim you have no free choice what to believe.

In a nut shell to my question “Are biblical text corrupt” you are saying yes they are because of Satan’s influence over human when writing do these text. Yet at the same the Quran is not corrupt due to the fact that the Quran was originally committed to memory and thus free from Satan’s influence.
Your statement “Why do you think most prophets had a tough time delivering the Word of Allah? ..(or Eloh in Hebrew?)” This is an Islamic view and by no means the acceptrd view of Jews or Christians. In fact it alludes to my other question you did not answer and in light of the above explanation I ask again, if the biblical text are corrupt why is the Islamic faith fumbling around trying to use Biblical text to justify their faith. Can Islam not stand on its own feet and Prophetic text such as the Quran?

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

I feel your heart cry in tune with so many, and it is this special relationship you as an individual have with God that sets you free in His unfailing love.

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[Zafran]

Hi Search
Since you have opened the door to questions I have one that has come to mind seems to be a common thread to many arguments in number of post on this site. Hopefully you would be able to clarify the actual Islamic view.
It is clear that Islam one the one hand is based on the Biblical teachings of the Bibles Prophets, yet at the same time reject the very same Prophets text as corrupt. This is a double standard and contradictory in itself. This in turn ask the question, why cannot Islam simple stand on its own teachings and sacred text such as other faith based religions do?

Regards
Doug

I'm sure you have the same question of Christianity - It accepts and relies on the OT and yet rejects the Jewish reading of it or just overrides it with NT - which the Jews of course reject. For example Jesus pbuh being the messiah yet the Jews dont agree - the laws shouldn't be kept and yet the Jews disagree etc etc.

[dwa2day]

I'm sure you have the same question of Christianity - It accepts and relies on the OT and yet rejects the Jewish reading of it or just overrides it with NT - which the Jews of course reject. For example Jesus pbuh being the messiah yet the Jews dont agree - the laws shouldn't be kept and yet the Jews disagree etc etc.

Hi Zafran
Thank you for your reply and insight.
I am restricted by the posting rules of this forum to give you a detailed explanation to your comments. However one fundamental problem I may note is your attempt to combined two different faiths as one when in fact they each stand alone and separate in their belief. If we are to accept the fussing together of different faiths as you have suggested to justify the Islamic faith, then by the same rules we must the accept Islam and Christianity agree the Jesus Christ is God.
I write this with the deepest respect for our both our faith and only to illustrate the erroneous argument you have made on the basis you would not accept the same critical standards to be used in evaluation Islam. Thus by virtue of fairness and truth one cannot be used it in any evaluation of any faith.

Regards
Doug

[greenhill]

@dwa2day .. Sorry got a bit carried away in my explanation...

In all honesty, the islamic faith uses only the Quran and the hadeeth as guide.

The fumbling is nothing to do with the need to justify islam.. it happens when questions are raised as what you put across due to the similarities between the Books claiming that the prophet 'stole' ideas from the previous Books and made his own with the Quran. Of course that is not true as much as imying that Jesus stole from the Torah and made his own with the Bible. They are all Allah's prophets hence the similarities in the messages.

It is also our duty as muslims to invite people to reflect and God willing accept the message. But in most cases, the Books and messages for the Jews ended with tbe Torah and for the Christians, the Bible.

We muslims believe that the message of the previous Books were true during the time of that prophet but got altered along the way after their passing. Thus, it is not something to be gained by us muslims, but instead, it adds to our responsibilties to call the people of the Books to reflect on the final message.


:peace:

[Muhammad]

Greetings Doug and welcome to the forum,

I've moved your discussion into a new thread to avoid derailing the other one.

The following response was posted by another member of the forum in a different thread:


Originally posted by - Qatada -

Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

[Qur'an 3: 2-3]

The Qur'an is the Criterion (Furqan) to verify what was the real message given to Jesus, son of Mary - the Messiah (peace be upon them.)


We believe that Jesus is an honorable Messenger of God, and we believe that he is the Messiah - who will slay the anti christ. He is the servant and Prophet of God, because God is not in need of children. If one was to say that God can have children if He wills, we believe that God only does what befits His Majesty. If God willed, He could pick anyone from among the creation to be His child, but He is way above what they associate with Him.


Don't you see how all the previous prophets called to the worship of God Alone without associating partners with Him? Don't you see the message of Noah, Abraham, Moses? Didn't they call their people to worship God Alone? They never claimed that they were divine, nor did Jesus son of Mary. He ate food, and he drank. He even went to the bathroom like we do. Do you really believe that God would do that?

Remember that I said that God only does what befits His Majesty? Well that fits in with that concept - so God doesn't go to the bathroom. Nor is He in need of any children, rather we are all His servants, and we are obedient to Him. So we worship God Alone, and no-one else. The One who gave us life, the One who provides for us, the One who will cause us to die, and He will bring us back to life and we will be judged on all that we did in this world.


Know that no soul bears the burden of another, and man will only get what he/she strived for. You are responsible for the good and bad you do, and so am i. No-one else is. You have to believe in what was revealed to all the Prophets and not take a pick and mix. Rather we take the whole package. And Muhammad (peace be upon him) recieved the same message as the Prophets of the earlier times - submit to God, your Creator and Provider by obeying His Messenger. If you do, you will be successful, but if you turn away - know that your Creator is Self-Sufficient, and you will be brought to account on the day when every soul will be questioned on what it did in this world.

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.

To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is within them. And He is over all things competent.


[Qur'an The Tablecloth [Al Ma'ida] 5: 116-120]

Please also see the following threads and links for previous discussions relating to your questions:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...t-believe.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post691179
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/do...orse_the_bible__
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...criptures.html

[M.I.A.]

Hi Zafran
Thank you for your reply and insight.
I am restricted by the posting rules of this forum to give you a detailed explanation to your comments. However one fundamental problem I may note is your attempt to combined two different faiths as one when in fact they each stand alone and separate in their belief. If we are to accept the fussing together of different faiths as you have suggested to justify the Islamic faith, then by the same rules we must the accept Islam and Christianity agree the Jesus Christ is God.
I write this with the deepest respect for our both our faith and only to illustrate the erroneous argument you have made on the basis you would not accept the same critical standards to be used in evaluation Islam. Thus by virtue of fairness and truth one cannot be used it in any evaluation of any faith.

Regards
Doug

combine different faiths?

your status says judeo-Christian!!

literally zafran gave you a 100% answer in its simplist form.. end of thread for the thinking man.

have a nice day doug.

your alpha male post intrigued me though.

[dwa2day]

combine different faiths?

your status says judeo-Christian!!

literally zafran gave you a 100% answer in its simplist form.. end of thread for the thinking man.

have a nice day doug.

your alpha male post intrigued me though.

It would have be nice to have an answer, rather than the my way or the high way response.

[M.I.A.]

agreed, although taking advantage of the answer is not what I do.

...too often the beta

[Serinity]

The Quran is not based off of The Bible. Rather it is because The Bible may still contain remnants of the words of Allah. To make the assumption you made. you'd have to do soo, with Jesus too. Noah too. ETc.

But what is in the Bible - most of it. At least for the beliefs - and the depictions of the Prophets :as: are fabrications. we do not take from the Bible, as it is corrupt - and we do not need to - as Allah sent down clear guidance - The Qur'aan. The Book that came to confirm the previous ones.

If we were able to find the Original Injeel in its unaltered/unchanged form, the message would be the same of that of the Qur'aan.


And Allah :swt: knows best.

[greenhill]

It would have be nice to have an answer, rather than the my way or the high way response.

It is really not "my way or the highway", seriously. Totally wrong concept.

It is not my rule. It is not anyone who is/was a muslim made rule. The difference is, we embrace it and submit to it. And the only God we believe in has a name. Allah is His name. He is also known by His 99 other names that describes Him for us, as we cannot see Him. It's the same belief everywhere, world over.

So, in learning to submit, as the Best of Planners Is At Work, we can understand and feel life in a very serene way. Hence why so many muslims would describe a 'way' that would appear to those who fail to understand the concept of submission to the All Mighty as being my way or highway.

It really isn't. Women in hijab a prime example. Sure some may be 'coerced' into it as much as many undesireable acts like smoking, bullying etc a result of social pressures..

But the belief is what makes it. It makes total sense. There is no other way. Whichever way we look at it.


:peace:

[Scimitar]

Are NT teachings based on the OT? :D

Scimi

[dwa2day]

It is really not "my way or the highway", seriously. Totally wrong concept.

It is not my rule. It is not anyone who is/was a muslim made rule. The difference is, we embrace it and submit to it. And the only God we believe in has a name. Allah is His name. He is also known by His 99 other names that describes Him for us, as we cannot see Him. It's the same belief everywhere, world over.

So, in learning to submit, as the Best of Planners Is At Work, we can understand and feel life in a very serene way. Hence why so many muslims would describe a 'way' that would appear to those who fail to understand the concept of submission to the All Mighty as being my way or highway.

It really isn't. Women in hijab a prime example. Sure some may be 'coerced' into it as much as many undesireable acts like smoking, bullying etc a result of social pressures..

But the belief is what makes it. It makes total sense. There is no other way. Whichever way we look at it.


:peace:

Hi Greenhill
Thank you for your input. I reply here to both your post to my question.
I confirm your explanation to why the 66 books of the Bible are corrupt is on the death of the respective authors Satan corrupted the writing of the original text. The Quran on the other hand is not corrupt because it was originally committed to memory. On submission to Allah and the writing of the Quran one will understand the truth.
It makes no sense, Satan has for over 1500 managed to corrupt Allah written word and boom suddenly he withdrawals for no apparent reason other than one man’s memory and we now have the truth in the Quran.
You go further to say Islam stands alone with the Quran and the Hadith as its guide. I understand the Hadith is in essence reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet Mohamed. In addition they are evaluated by Muslim clerics as authentic, good or weak.
This by Muslim standards is saying the Quran in itself is also corrupt or rather been corrupted by Saran after Mohamed’s death.
Do you seem my problem, the explanations given do not build a puzzle of confidence.

Regards
Doug

After further discussion and comments it is clear my understanding of this has been incorrect and thus apologies to any person I may of offended by my this statement.
I trust I will continue to learn through further discussion in this forum.

[dwa2day]

Are NT teachings based on the OT? :D

Scimi

Hi Scimi
I would like to give you my answer but it would be expressing my faith view which is against the posting rules of this site.

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

Hi Muhammad
I would like to thank you for the help with reposting my question in the correct manner. Thank you also for the links I will be thsure to use them.

Blessing and regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

The Quran is not based off of The Bible. Rather it is because The Bible may still contain remnants of the words of Allah. To make the assumption you made. you'd have to do soo, with Jesus too. Noah too. ETc.

But what is in the Bible - most of it. At least for the beliefs - and the depictions of the Prophets :as: are fabrications. we do not take from the Bible, as it is corrupt - and we do not need to - as Allah sent down clear guidance - The Qur'aan. The Book that came to confirm the previous ones.

If we were able to find the Original Injeel in its unaltered/unchanged form, the message would be the same of that of the Qur'aan.


And Allah :swt: knows best.

Thank you for that insight and thus one must deduce that any reference to the Prophet Muhammad in the in the Bible is false as 1) the text is corrupt and the depictions of the Prophets are fabrications. 2) The Quran is not based on the Bible.
Regards
Doug

[M.I.A.]

10/10

dammit!

....I shouldn't lol

this is why we can't have nice things.

:|


maybe we should all go blow up somewhere to set the world aright..

trolled to death.

:|


or just be super sarcastic through life..

because we nice like that.

[Serinity]

Thank you for that insight and thus one must deduce that any reference to the Prophet Muhammad in the in the Bible is false as 1) the text is corrupt and the depictions of the Prophets are fabrications. 2) The Quran is not based on the Bible.
Regards
Doug

False, That is not true. And that is not what I meant. I didn't say the Bible is 100% corrupt. Can you elaborate on "based on the Bible"?

Cause the Quran is 100% word of Allah, independent. The Injeel - previous revelation- in its pure form hold the same message as that of the Quran.

Aren't you going to say "The Bible is based on the Torah"? All Prophets :as: came with the same exact message. The Qur'aan confirms the previous revelations, and what is in it.

Don't put words in my mouth. A scholar of Islam can elaborate.

[Zafran]

I confirm your explanation to why the 66 books of the Bible are corrupt is on the death of the respective authors Satan corrupted the writing of the original text.

Does the bible have 66 books or 73? which bible are we specifically talking about?

[Scimitar]

Hi Scimi
I would like to give you my answer but it would be expressing my faith view which is against the posting rules of this site.

Regards
Doug

Hi dwa2day,

i dont think you need to state your religion in order to answer the question - a simple yes or no answer would do - the question itself was closed.

God bless,

Scimi

[kritikvernunft]

why cannot Islam simple stand on its own teachings and sacred text such as other faith based religions do?

Religion is not an invention but a discovery, i.e. in religious terms, a revelation.

So, yes, other people had independently discovered that universal time is finite, that there must be a first cause located at the beginning times, and that this first cause is the principle of causality to everything else. In terms of moral rules, i.e. Divine Law, it is obvious that the blueprint of humanity contains this law, that this blueprint must have existed before humanity did, and hence that humanity could impossibly have designed its own blueprint.

There is absolutely nothing to "invent" about this.

It is the same with things like number theory. These things are discovered and not invented. Hence, you should not be surprised that ancient Indians had discovered bits and bobs of modular algebra without ever discussing with the Mexican Mayas, who also had managed to discover these things independently. In fact, anybody even with just half a brain would end up rediscovering these things ...

[dwa2day]

False, That is not true. And that is not what I meant. I didn't say the Bible is 100% corrupt. Can you elaborate on "based on the Bible"?

Cause the Quran is 100% word of Allah, independent. The Injeel - previous revelation- in its pure form hold the same message as that of the Quran.

Aren't you going to say "The Bible is based on the Torah"? All Prophets :as: came with the same exact message. The Qur'aan confirms the previous revelations, and what is in it.

Don't put words in my mouth. A scholar of Islam can elaborate.

Hi Serinity
I have not put words in your mouth as you claim, I simply made a logical detuction base on what you wrote I said “Thus one can deduct……… as you wrote “The Quran is not based off of The Bible” And later “the depictions of the Prophets are fabrications. we do not take from the Bible, as it is corrupt”

Now you are say something different, ”I didn't say the Bible is 100% corrupt.” My dilemma here you cannot have it both ways. Secondly if the original text of the Bible which confirm the Quran are lost we have no reference to the truth other than faith. Thus have no basis in determining what is true in the Bible and or Torah. Therefore we are left with only one of two options, 1=the Bible is true or 2= the bible

Thirdly is your reference to the Injeel…
It is clear from the Quran that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was granted wisdom even as a child (19:29-30, 5:110). There is no proof from the Quran that he was bestowed with a separate book called the 'Injeel' at such a young age. In contrast, the Injeel seems to refer to the 'wisdom' that was granted to him. (Referenced from quranmessage .com)
Again a book that cannot be referenced and thus is a matter of faith.
Your question “Can you elaborate on "based on the Bible"?
I may not give you my view of the bible as it is against the posting rules of this site.
Further it is not my intention to promote my belief, prior to joining this forum I understood Islam to be a rich faith built on a solid base which stood alone in the world as a faith to consider if one is seeking eternal life. Hopefully by the end of my time here I will have a firm answer, right now based on the replies I have received I find Islam wanting, in that it seems to inconsistent in its foundation, as you have clearly stated, for one argument you claim the Bible is corrupt yet for another it is not a 100% corrupt. Thus asks the question is, on what rules is this determined and can we use the same rules to evaluate the Quran.
This is the hard question that is still unanswered.

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

Does the bible have 66 books or 73? which bible are we specifically talking about?

Hi Zafran
I am not sure to which bible Greenhill used in the explanation given. To me it really does not matter as the question is related to the general view of the Islamic faith that the Bible is corrupt, in the context of the discussion with Greenhill and his/her explanation. Thus if you wish to be specific on which one and how many books it is made up off then this must come from Greenhill or another professing Muslim not me.
My intention of the thread is to more fully understand the Islamic faith and not discuss other religious views as this is against the posting rules of this site.

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

Religion is not an invention but a discovery, i.e. in religious terms, a revelation.

So, yes, other people had independently discovered that universal time is finite, that there must be a first cause located at the beginning times, and that this first cause is the principle of causality to everything else. In terms of moral rules, i.e. Divine Law, it is obvious that the blueprint of humanity contains this law, that this blueprint must have existed before humanity did, and hence that humanity could impossibly have designed its own blueprint.

...

Hi kritikvernunft.
I must commend you on what you have written. It makes sense and resonates truth within my heart that conforms to a fair understand of things unknown. Thank you for the input.

Regards
Doug

[Serinity]

Hi Serinity
I have not put words in your mouth as you claim, I simply made a logical detuction base on what you wrote I said “Thus one can deduct……… as you wrote “The Quran is not based off of The Bible” And later “the depictions of the Prophets are fabrications. we do not take from the Bible, as it is corrupt”

Now you are say something different, ”I didn't say the Bible is 100% corrupt.” My dilemma here you cannot have it both ways. Secondly if the original text of the Bible which confirm the Quran are lost we have no reference to the truth other than faith. Thus have no basis in determining what is true in the Bible and or Torah. Therefore we are left with only one of two options, 1=the Bible is true or 2= the bible

Thirdly is your reference to the Injeel…
It is clear from the Quran that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was granted wisdom even as a child (19:29-30, 5:110). There is no proof from the Quran that he was bestowed with a separate book called the 'Injeel' at such a young age. In contrast, the Injeel seems to refer to the 'wisdom' that was granted to him. (Referenced from quranmessage .com)
Again a book that cannot be referenced and thus is a matter of faith.
Your question “Can you elaborate on "based on the Bible"?
I may not give you my view of the bible as it is against the posting rules of this site.
Further it is not my intention to promote my belief, prior to joining this forum I understood Islam to be a rich faith built on a solid base which stood alone in the world as a faith to consider if one is seeking eternal life. Hopefully by the end of my time here I will have a firm answer, right now based on the replies I have received I find Islam wanting, in that it seems to inconsistent in its foundation, as you have clearly stated, for one argument you claim the Bible is corrupt yet for another it is not a 100% corrupt. Thus asks the question is, on what rules is this determined and can we use the same rules to evaluate the Quran.
This is the hard question that is still unanswered.

Regards
Doug

Allah revealed the Taurat to Musa :as: , and the Injeel to Jesus :as: Allah's words are absolute. I rather believe Allah, than you. :)

We do know what is true, and we can know what is true. In terms of beliefs, whatever goes against the Quran is false.

your deduction is fallacious. There are references to Prophet Muhammad :saw: in the Bible, there are frabications of what the Prophets :as: did. I am not saying everything in it is fabricated, rather some are.

As for the Injeel, it was revealed, and Allah knows best how.

[dwa2day]

Hi dwa2day,

i dont think you need to state your religion in order to answer the question - a simple yes or no answer would do - the question itself was closed.

God bless,

Scimi

Hi Scimi
Again your question requires me to express my religious views which is against the posting rules of the site. In addition the objective of the forum is to promote unity with in the Islamic faith not to discuss the merits of the Christian and Jewish faith texts.
Besides any answer to your question has nothing positive to add or enhance the question at hand which is “Is Islam based on Biblical Teachings?”
Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

Allah revealed the Taurat to Musa :as: , and the Injeel to Jesus :as: Allah's words are absolute. I rather believe Allah, than you. :)

We do know what is true, and we can know what is true. In terms of beliefs, whatever goes against the Quran is false.

your deduction is fallacious. There are references to Prophet Muhammad :saw: in the Bible, there are frabications of what the Prophets :as: did. I am not saying everything in it is fabricated, rather some are.

As for the Injeel, it was revealed, and Allah knows best how.

Hi Serinity.
Thank you for your reply, and by no means am I asking you to believe me, rather Iam asking you to show me the foundation of the Islamic faith. In addition please accept my apologies if my logic of deduction has offended you, this is not my intention, but rather to gain understand of the foundation of the Islamic faith.
Thus I understand that the Quran is the absolute text from Allah and anything against it is false. In addition any reference to the Biblical text in the Quran is made to the original text which has been lost and not available to us today.
Would this be correct?

Regards
Doug

[greenhill]

I don't understand so much the reason behind the question. It is as tough the journey of the messages are unrelated. Allah Created all, and our journey as human race began with Adam pbuh. Abraham pbuh became known as the father of religion. It was rediscovered then. And all messages stemming from there grew with each Book. It is a continuation. Not borrowed from each other.

What was erred through the passage of time were corrected with the newer revelations. Then, the time came for the final messenger to do his bidding, to complete the message.

It is that simple.


:peace:

[Scimitar]

Hi Scimi
Again your question requires me to express my religious views which is against the posting rules of the site. In addition the objective of the forum is to promote unity with in the Islamic faith not to discuss the merits of the Christian and Jewish faith texts.
Besides any answer to your question has nothing positive to add or enhance the question at hand which is “Is Islam based on Biblical Teachings?”
Regards
Doug

Afternoon dwa2day,

My friend, I could just as well do the same as you and claim that your thread OP does nothing to promote unity within Islam and is thus, against the rules of this site - right? However, evidently the thread still exists and I am still asking the question.

I'm leading your logic by it.

You want to know if the Quran is based on NT teachings... I want to know if the NT is based on OT teachings... and we are still here allowed to post with no warnings or moderator edits to our posts.

My friend, it's a simple question I ask, is the NT based on OT ??? the answer is either Yes or No - right? Should you decide to answer this simple question, you may or may not wish to elaborate on your reasons as to why. Should you decide to do so, we can talk more God willing.

Either way, I repeat to you words, you wrote to another:

It would have be nice to have an answer, rather than the my way or the high way response.

For the record, I highly doubt a moderator would serve you an infraction for answering a question I put to you.

God bless,

Scimi

[greenhill]

Which makes me think why would you not want to follow a message that is completed and the messenger passes in his bed after he had completed his mission.

Jesus obviously could not complete his. He was a hunted man and according to Christian belief, killed at the cross, ending the message abruptly.

It would make sense to follow up that message on a society that would be able to grasp the concept... rather alien one, to be charitible, forgiving, humble etc... but then again, so is the concept of the unseen God.

Even Christians need the symbol as representation. Know Jesus, the Holy Spirit but know not God. I don't recall the Bible having a name for Him.. The Quran hence, also set about redressing that, together with 99 names.

So that you would know.


:peace:

[dwa2day]

Afternoon dwa2day,

My friend, I could just as well do the same as you and claim that your thread OP does nothing to promote unity within Islam and is thus, against the rules of this site - right? However, evidently the thread still exists and I am still asking the question.

I'm leading your logic by it.

You want to know if the Quran is based on NT teachings... I want to know if the NT is based on OT teachings... and we are still here allowed to post with no warnings or moderator edits to our posts.

My friend, it's a simple question I ask, is the NT based on OT ??? the answer is either Yes or No - right? Should you decide to answer this simple question, you may or may not wish to elaborate on your reasons as to why. Should you decide to do so, we can talk more God willing.

Either way, I repeat to you words, you wrote to another:



For the record, I highly doubt a moderator would serve you an infraction for answering a question I put to you.

God bless,

Scimi

Ok here is what I understand about the Bible.
In general terms without be specific with regards to any other faith and this is my view and not that of any specific faith or group. In simplicity the bible can be split in four parts.
The Torah or the books of Moses which are the first five book of the Old Testament, Genesis through to Deuteronomy.
The next 34 books form the balance of the books of the Old Testament, Joshua through to Malachi. Thus in total there are 39 books known as the Old Testament, which are used in the Jewish and Christian faith.
Nestled in between the New and Old Testament are 14 books known as the apocrypha books. Today only some of the eastern orthodox faith these books as part of their faith books. They make for good reading as insight into scripture but are not used by the majority of Christians or Jews as authentic works of faith.
The New Testament is made up of 27 books, Mathew through to Revelation. The first four are known as the Gospels. The majority of the books of the New Testament are letters written by the early Church Leaders to new members of faith know at the time as The Way.
The Jewish faith does not accept the New Testament as books of their faith. Thus for a Christian the bible consist of the Old & New Testament. In short and amongst other point of faith a Christian view the Old Testament as the Prophecy of the Messiah or Jesus. New the Testament tell the Story of the fulfilment of the Old Testament Prophecy of Christ (in excess of 330) the formation of the early Church and the end revelation of Christ.
I trust this answer the questions you have posed.

Regards
Doug

[Serinity]

The Quran is the revelation of Allah. Literal words of Allah. If anything, The Bible confirms the Qur'an, not the other way around.

If there is anything that the Bible has, the Quran has, that just means that it may be remnants from the words of Allah. Simple.

So to say that Islam is "based on" Biblical teaching, is fallacious. by that you'd have to say Taurat was "based on" what came before it.

All books in its pure form contain the same message.

Musa :as: came with the Taurat, it got corrupted. Then Isa :as: came with the Injeel, and then The Prophet Muhammad :saw: came reciting the Quran.

Christianity is a religion based on the corrupt teachings of the decievers. It is a by-product of the invented lies of man.

Islam is what Jesus :as: , Prophet Musa :as: and every single Prophet :as: preached. They all preached Islam. The Oneness of Allah, and they all called to worship Allah, alone.

Worshipping anything else or anyone else, and you have committed idolatory.

[Scimitar]

Ok here is what I understand about the Bible.
In general terms without be specific with regards to any other faith and this is my view and not that of any specific faith or group. In simplicity the bible can be split in four parts.
The Torah or the books of Moses which are the first five book of the Old Testament, Genesis through to Deuteronomy.
The next 34 books form the balance of the books of the Old Testament, Joshua through to Malachi. Thus in total there are 39 books known as the Old Testament, which are used in the Jewish and Christian faith.
Nestled in between the New and Old Testament are 14 books known as the apocrypha books. Today only some of the eastern orthodox faith these books as part of their faith books. They make for good reading as insight into scripture but are not used by the majority of Christians or Jews as authentic works of faith.
The New Testament is made up of 27 books, Mathew through to Revelation. The first four are known as the Gospels. The majority of the books of the New Testament are letters written by the early Church Leaders to new members of faith know at the time as The Way.
The Jewish faith does not accept the New Testament as books of their faith. Thus for a Christian the bible consist of the Old & New Testament. In short and amongst other point of faith a Christian view the Old Testament as the Prophecy of the Messiah or Jesus. New the Testament tell the Story of the fulfilment of the Old Testament Prophecy of Christ (in excess of 330) the formation of the early Church and the end revelation of Christ.
I trust this answer the questions you have posed.

Regards
Doug

Dude, I just asked you a simple question, and not for an history lesson on the canonisation process lol...

let me repeat once again "Is the NT based on the OT?"

It is a SIMPLE yes or no answer I am looking for... not some canon gymnastics on your part.

Scimi

[dwa2day]

I don't understand so much the reason behind the question. It is as tough the journey of the messages are unrelated. Allah Created all, and our journey as human race began with Adam pbuh. Abraham pbuh became known as the father of religion. It was rediscovered then. And all messages stemming from there grew with each Book. It is a continuation. Not borrowed from each other.

What was erred through the passage of time were corrected with the newer revelations. Then, the time came for the final messenger to do his bidding, to complete the message.

It is that simple.


:peace:

Hi Greenhill
Thank you for your reply and I am sorry to read that you do not understand the reason behind the question. So let me try and explain.
Prior to joining this forum I understood the Islamic faith as strong faith that was based on a solid foundation of faith. However I understood little more than nothing about Islam and only recently learned the Jesus Christ is a key figure in Islam. This got me thinking, if Jesus is common why through history has there been so much conflict between Christianity and Islam.
Thus I have decided to find out form myself, the basis for this motivation is my belief that the love of Jesus surpasses all understanding and thus there must be common ground for unity and not conflict between our faiths. Thus my point of departure on this quest if I may call it so is the question “Is Islam based on the Bible?”
My new understanding from replies to my question are summarised as follows:
*The Quran is the supreme source for the Islamic faith and anything that stands against it is false.
*The Quran stands of its own as an unadulterated or uncorrupted literary text of the faith and is supported by the Hadeeth.
*All other faith bases text have been corrupted by man through the works of Satan and thus are false.
*The Jews and Christian literature know as the Old and New Testament in its original form confirm the *Quran but have been lost and today we have no reference to these text and therefore the Quran is correct.

Is my new understanding correct?


Regards
Doug

[greenhill]

Yes and no...

Is islam based on the Bible? I would have to say 'no'.

Islam is based on Allah's teachings that was conveyed throughout times captured by the Books along the way. The Bible being one of them.


:peace:

[dwa2day]

Dude, I just asked you a simple question, and not for an history lesson on the canonisation process lol...

let me repeat once again "Is the NT based on the OT?"

It is a SIMPLE yes or no answer I am looking for... not some canon gymnastics on your part.

Scimi

Hi Scimi
My apologies for my error it was Zafran who asked the question of how many book are in the bible and thus the explanation.
Your question can not be answered in a simple yes or no, as either answer could suggest certain doctrines of the faith of the Jews and Christians as incorrect. For example if I said NO – this would imply that Christians do not embrace the teachings found in the Old Testament which I do.
If I replied yes – this would imply that the Jewish faith must embrace the teachings of the New Testament and that’s not my call to make. More to the point this would also imply that the New Testament adds other doctrines not found in the Old Testament which would also be untrue.
So therefore as already stated my answer is:-
For a Christian the bible consist of the Old & New Testament. The Old Testament is the Prophecy of the Messiah or Jesus. New the Testament tells the Story of the fulfilment of the Old Testament Prophecy of Christ the formation of the early Church and the end time revelation of Christ. And my I add here tells the story of the rejection of Jesus by the Jewish faith.
I am deeply sorry you do not like my answer and chose to ignore it, but that’s your choice.

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

The Quran is the revelation of Allah. Literal words of Allah. If anything, The Bible confirms the Qur'an,........ and you have committed idolatory.

Hi Serinity
Thank you for your reply. I understand from an Islamic view that the Quran, is the infallible word of Allah and it is supreme in regard to anything before it. Iam not questioning this foundation of faith by any means.
At the same time I do not question the foundation of the Jewish or Christian text of their faith. In the same manner as Muslim embrace the Quran and Hadeeth, it is the Jews and Christians choice what they chose to embrace as their faiths scripture. If Islam choses to reject other faiths scripture that’s ok with me. Let’s keep it there and follow the faith and text of our choice.
However this is not the case, there seems to be this unrelenting need to use biblical text and prophets to give Islam a base to work from but at the same time reject the very base it is referring to. It is like building a puzzle using pieces from two different puzzles, you just do not get the true picture.
Surly it would be better to claim the Quran refers to the Lost Books and Prophets of Faith and Keep the Jewish and Christian text out of the picture?
Your comment “The Bible confirms the Qur'an” then later “So to say that Islam is "based on" Biblical teaching, is fallacious.” I find this confusing and contradictory.
In addition “Islam is what Jesus, Prophet Musa and every single Prophet preached. They all preached Islam. The Oneness of Allah, and they all called to worship Allah, alone.“ This is purely an Islamic view and is not confirmed in any biblical text.



Regards
Doug

[ardianto]

Greetings Doug.

Muslims believe that God sent many messengers, sequentially. Started by prophet Adam (pbuh) and ended by prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Few of those prophets conveyed Law that we call religion. And when the new Law has come, the previous Law is not valid again.

Prophet Isa/Jesus (pbuh) was one of the prophets who conveyed Law that now called Christianity. However, after the newer Law that called Islam has come, then the previous Law is not valid again.

So, is Islam based on Biblical teaching?. The answer is no. Christianity is not base of Islamic teaching, but the previous Law from God that has been replaced by Islam.

I understand if you disagree with Muslims in this matter. But this is the Muslim's view on Bible and Christianity.

Regards
Ardianto

[dwa2day]

Greetings Doug.

Muslims believe that God sent many messengers,...................... this is the Muslim's view on Bible and Christianity.

Regards
Ardianto

Hi ardianto
Thank you for your reply and your direct answer. Please know it not about what I believe or agree with. I simply want to know more about Islam and what form the base of their faith. In your reply you have made it clear. Thank you and be blessed, from whatever source gives you your strength.

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

Which makes me think why would you not want to follow a message that is completed ................................So that you would know.


:peace:

Hi Greenhill.
You pose a very good question. “Why would you not want to follow a message that is completed?”
In essence this should be the question of this thread and most defiantly why I am asking Muslims about their faith. Yet the hard questions are answered in aggression and reasons for how bad other faiths are. For example your comment “Know Jesus, the Holy Spirit but know not God. I don't recall the Bible having a name for Him.”
This has no value or gives me any better insight or deeper understanding of the foundation and or authority the Islamic faith. So then answer the question free of contradictory statement so I to my enjoy eternity.

Regards
Doug

[ardianto]

Hi ardianto
Thank you for your reply and your direct answer. Please know it not about what I believe or agree with. I simply want to know more about Islam and what form the base of their faith. In your reply you have made it clear. Thank you and be blessed, from whatever source gives you your strength.

Regards
Doug

You're welcome, Doug. :)

[Abz2000]

Hi Greenhill.
You pose a very good question. “Why would you not want to follow a message that is completed?”
In essence this should be the question of this thread and most defiantly why I am asking Muslims about their faith. Yet the hard questions are answered in aggression and reasons for how bad other faiths are. For example your comment “Know Jesus, the Holy Spirit but know not God. I don't recall the Bible having a name for Him.”
This has no value or gives me any better insight or deeper understanding of the foundation and or authority the Islamic faith. So then answer the question free of contradictory statement so I to my enjoy eternity.

Regards
Doug

If you read the Quran with an open and truthfully critical mind, it should be easy to see the basics, if you continue to study and read more on the biography of the final messenger of God to mankind (may the peace and blessings of Allah the most high be upon him) from classical Islamic sources, you'll find more gems as you continue to read and re-read the Quran. Remember, Islam isn't just what Muslims believe, it is what it is and remains so free from dependence on people's opinions it's how we interpret Islam that defines us, and how Islam interprets us that defines us.

If all the people of the world were to gather together and imagine that God doesn't exist, it would not affect the fact that He exists.
It is we who need to seek the truth as individuals and as a community in order to succeed.

[Scimitar]

Hi Scimi
My apologies for my error it was Zafran who asked the question of how many book are in the bible and thus the explanation.
Your question can not be answered in a simple yes or no, as either answer could suggest certain doctrines of the faith of the Jews and Christians as incorrect. For example if I said NO – this would imply that Christians do not embrace the teachings found in the Old Testament which I do.

Hi Doug,

Actually no it would not - as there are many varying theologies inside of Christianity - some which outright deny the OT and others which venerate it and yet others still who think it as abrogated majorly since the NT came into being circa 325 CE.

I'll give you the answer later to the question I asked. But for now, let's examine more of what you wrote.

If I replied yes – this would imply that the Jewish faith must embrace the teachings of the New Testament and that’s not my call to make.

Nope, it doesn't. How did you come to such an erroneous conclusion? *shrugs* I asked you whether the NT is based on the OT - not the other way round lol.

The NT has elements of OT teachings inside of it but the MAIN and most IMPORTANT difference is in THEOLOGY... NT promotes 3 Gods in the form of a trinity which is Polytheism - whereas - the OT does not and remains staunch on Monotheism.

Is the NT based off the OT? Seems like a remix that had even more remixes released and they still continue today - which NT version is the correct one? There are literally hundreds of NT versions in the English translations alone - and in case you do not know it - a version is different to a translation.

I'm sure God is not the author of confusions.

More to the point this would also imply that the New Testament adds other doctrines not found in the Old Testament which would also be untrue.

The NT has lots of "interpolations" such as 1 John 5:7 and TImothy 3:16 - as is proven now according to Christian scholars of the highest eminence from across 50 cooperating denominations... putting the whole "trinity" theology into disrepute in todays times.

So therefore as already stated my answer is:-
For a Christian the bible consist of the Old & New Testament. The Old Testament is the Prophecy of the Messiah or Jesus.

NO it isn't - it's about MUCH more than that - I doubt you've read the OT at all now, sheesh. I've wasted my time here, evidently. I was expecting knowledge and comparative understanding, but got nothing from you - I am dissappointed.

New the Testament tells the Story of the fulfilment of the Old Testament Prophecy of Christ the formation of the early Church and the end time revelation of Christ. And my I add here tells the story of the rejection of Jesus by the Jewish faith.

If the Old Testament spoke of the Messiah being a son of God - then it would have already adhered to a "dualistic" theology - not monotheistic - savvy? the strange thing here is that the NT has three god beings, a father, a son and an holy ghost... if this was validated as an extension of theological principles from the OT to the NT - then we should find a dualistic theology in pace in the OT before the NT pushed for trinity...

savvy?
...The New Testament minces the contexts of the Old Testament to make it appear so... the only thing I can agree with is that the NT is a work of man and not a divine revelation - since it is attributed to four mysterious figures who never left a last name...

I am deeply sorry you do not like my answer and chose to ignore it, but that’s your choice.

Regards
Doug

Don't be sorry, my salvation does not depend upon your opinion of me.

Scimi

[Serinity]

Hi Serinity
Thank you for your reply. I understand from an Islamic view that the Quran, is the infallible word of Allah and it is supreme in regard to anything before it. Iam not questioning this foundation of faith by any means.
At the same time I do not question the foundation of the Jewish or Christian text of their faith. In the same manner as Muslim embrace the Quran and Hadeeth, it is the Jews and Christians choice what they chose to embrace as their faiths scripture. If Islam choses to reject other faiths scripture that’s ok with me. Let’s keep it there and follow the faith and text of our choice.
However this is not the case, there seems to be this unrelenting need to use biblical text and prophets to give Islam a base to work from but at the same time reject the very base it is referring to. It is like building a puzzle using pieces from two different puzzles, you just do not get the true picture.
Surly it would be better to claim the Quran refers to the Lost Books and Prophets of Faith and Keep the Jewish and Christian text out of the picture?
Your comment “The Bible confirms the Qur'an” then later “So to say that Islam is "based on" Biblical teaching, is fallacious.” I find this confusing and contradictory.
In addition “Islam is what Jesus, Prophet Musa and every single Prophet preached. They all preached Islam. The Oneness of Allah, and they all called to worship Allah, alone.“ This is purely an Islamic view and is not confirmed in any biblical text.



Regards
Doug

by me saying "The Bible confirms/points to the Quran" I do NOT say and it does NOT mean "based on" .

[dwa2day]

Hi Doug,

Actually no it would not - .................................................. ............. my salvation does not depend upon your opinion of me.

Scimi

Hi Scimi
Your reply is pointless to the question at hand “Is the Quran based on the Bible?” In addition your response is exactly what I wish to avoid, a debate on the validity of Jewish and Christian Text. Not only is it against the posting rules of the site it adds to value in the Promotion of Islam.
I am here to gain an understanding of Islam, not to be told how bad other faiths are. The question has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity or whatever school of thought you have regarding other faiths text / scripture.
As told to me in this thread, if it is not in the Quran it is false. I accept this so why do you want to discuss it we agree you do not believe in. It adds no value.

Regards
Doug

[Scimitar]

Hi Scimi
Your reply is pointless to the question at hand “Is the Quran based on the Bible?”

Hi Doug,

And I asked whether the NT is based on the OT - the irony slipped over your head.

I was hoping you'd see how your OP premise is ironic... seems you cannot entertain that type of logic.

In addition your response is exactly what I wish to avoid, a debate on the validity of Jewish and Christian Text. Not only is it against the posting rules of the site it adds to value in the Promotion of Islam.

That's not against the board rules - fear not - the thread is still going and the mods have read it, I'm sure.

I am here to gain an understanding of Islam, not to be told how bad other faiths are.

That makes two of us then.

The question has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity or whatever school of thought you have regarding other faiths text / scripture.

It has everything to do with it when I ask "is the NT based on the OT teachings?" Paul done away with the sabbath and the circumcision, and allowed the eating of swine - By this standard alone, I'd say it is not based on the OT teachings, would you agree? Consider, the very word Torah - means LAW... and Paul abrogated those, clearly...

...You know Paul was a hired mercenary recruited to hunt down and kill the early followers of Jesus pbuh, and then had a miraculous fall off his horse and saw an apparition in the form of light - in other words, Lucifer the satan - most Christians today are following Paul and not Jesus pbuh.

Paul in my honest opinion is the very same false prophet who minced the words of Jesus pbuh and interpolated his own understanding to deify Jesus pbuh when Jesus himself said "Hear O Israel, the LOrd, God is ONE"... not two, not three, etc.

Paul was turfed out by the Jews of Jerusalem, for blasphemy and it was the Roman Pagans who snuck him out and told him "Go preach to the gentiles"... why? Because the Semitic people of Jerusalem REJECTED Paul. That includes both the Jews and the early followers of Jesus pbuh. Both semitic groups rejected Paul.

Do you know what a red letter bible is? Go get one my friend... you seek truth? Truth is never convenient.

As told to me in this thread, if it is not in the Quran it is false. I accept this so why do you want to discuss it we agree you do not believe in. It adds no value.

I study the comparatives, to find alignments in my eschatological research. For this, I take into consideration the Old Testament/Torah, the NT, and the Qur'an as well as Ahadeeth.

To claim that I do not believe in the previous scriptures is a blanket statement and this is not the first time you've been caught out putting words in the mouths of others they never spoke... I ask - how can you read the any holy scripture in context when you can't even follow the intended points of members in this very thread?

You need to really, step up a little here my friend and do this properly.

Regards
Doug

And to you, the same,

Scimi

[greenhill]

Hi Greenhill
Thank you for your input. . .
..........
You go further to say Islam stands alone with the Quran and the Hadith as its guide. I understand the Hadith is in essence reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet Mohamed. In addition they are evaluated by Muslim clerics as authentic, good or weak.
This by Muslim standards is saying the Quran in itself is also corrupt or rather been corrupted by Saran after Mohamed’s death.
Do you seem my problem, the explanations given do not build a puzzle of confidence.

Regards
Doug

Don't quite understand still.

Saran? Or typo Satan? But that is not the real point.

The point is that the Quran tells to pray and to offer it at various times and in various positions described. It tells us to be humble and rigtheous, forgiving and charitable. And the prophet pbuh demonstrated a way of being. If we want an example, it should be him. And the stories of all the prophets are a special in their own right. It is hard to pick a favourite. Nabi Ibrahim pbuh and his conquest of so many nations..? Daud pbuh? Suleiman pbuh? Musa pbuh and Egypt. Stories if what they do too would be sunnah. But none alive today have any authentic chain of narration going that far back to be sunnah..

So, how we pray and stuff, is demonstrated for the observers to be guided. .

How do you mean corrupt?


:peace:

[dwa2day]

Hi Doug,............................

And to you, the same,

Scimi

Thanks

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

If you read the ………………………………… as a community in order to succeed.

Hi Abz2000
What you say makes sense to me. However were I get a bit lost is …….

it's how we interpret Islam that defines us,

I apologies in advance if I sound stupid or over critical here. But common sense says to me there can only be one truth, but if each person has his own interpretation of Islam it could lead to confusion, disruption and or corruptness of what the intention is of the original message. Would it be prudent of me to say there should be some rule of engagement, for example must be in agreement with the Hadeeth and in context of the passage.

, and how Islam interprets us that defines us.

This comment needs a bit more explanation for me to grasp.

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

Don't quite understand still. ……………..ar back to be sunnah..

Hi Greenhill
Yes and how truth that it is the stories that give body and life to teaching. However also and example of how us human embmeish a stories just to make it sound good. Thus confirming the point of how texts can be changed or corrupted.
To your question

How do you mean corrupt?

Please know what I write is done in full respect your faith requires and merely to gain understanding of Islam.
You have the Hadeeth which is second only to the Quran. I understand this text to be what I would call a concordance or study guide of the sayings of Muhammad. We know the Quran was originally committed to memory but at a point was compiled by respected elders from various sources. Some source were many about certain things while other were less.
Yes I know the above not accurate, and requires a lot more, however it is the overhaul principle at stake not the actual methodology. So by example and again this is fact as it is an example so please do not censure my error. Example 20 sources confirm Muhammad said “ABC” This was determined to be an authentic saying of Muhammad. In application my understanding of reading the Hadeeth, my example would ask the question "DEF'. Thus reading the Hadeeth one may find truth in that it gives an explanation and refers you to supporting Sunna’s saying "XYZ".
Source material with only 10 confirmation were classed as “Good” and source material with less than three were classed as “Weak” (again just principle here) Thus by Islamic standards we have authentic saying of Muhammad – Good ones that possible were said and weak one we are unsure of.
Thus my comment that by Islamic standards the Quran is (I re-phrase not to offend) not a 100% authentic.

Regards
Doug

[greenhill]

Kill the infidel... maybe I will come to that later... it has been explained countless times in this forum already it is everytime misquoted. But more to what you were saying. It might even be encapsulated in this nice little story which I would often use as my own guide when things become complicated... (and the story is in my own words)

Once the prophet spoke and told everyone, that in their lifetime, if able, to perform the hajj. To which someone asked, is that every year O prophet? ... the prophet did not answer so he repeated the question until the third time. Then the holy prophet answered, with a pre cursor of pointing out to the questioner that people like him are the cause of the split in the ummah. He asks, what if he had said "yes". How it then becomes difficult. Why can't people just take the instruction as is.

So the ummah has been infiltrated, too many questions asked and too many fatwas come out as a result of questions raised when there is really no need.

You see, I believe Satan knows the Quran inside and out. He tries to bend it if we do not ourselves understand it, we will be manipulated.

But islam from the begining is about Allah and our intentions. Then execution with honesty and patience and humility. Charitable and upright. Protect the weak.

If you were to see the growth of the deen throughout the times, you would see that quite a lot of the passages in the Quran were directed towards the Jews. It was a direct 'hit' confirming it to them. Their riddles and ploys exposed. It was the truth they did not want to hear. Just like what they tried with Jesus pbuh. You would notice (I did) that Jesus was kind and gentle with the public but ruthless and not minced his words when it came to the Jews. He called them all kinds of things.. lol..

And they plotted to have Jesus killed and his message distorted. Having succeeded they tried with the the final message.

If it cannot be distorted from within then perhaps Satan distorts it from the outside making the world reluctant to even touch the Book... build up a hugely negative perception of the Book... that he does not really need to do something that by now would be a lot harder..


Actually I know the subject is intriguing to you but I am not fully understanding your question.


:peace:

[dwa2day]

Wow What is it with this site, or did I miss the lesson on how to ignore content and take everything out of context. I specifically ask …

……. Please know what I write is done in full respect your faith requires and merely to gain understanding of Islam. ………Yes I know the above not accurate, and requires a lot more, however it is the overhaul principle at stake not the actual methodology. So by example and again this is made up by me not fact as an example so please do not censure my error.

What do you do ….. zone in on the example, censure it am miss the content written as your responces is

Kill the infidel... maybe I will come to that later... it has been explained countless……………………….

I have thus in order to avoid above edited the post to read “ABC”, “DEF” and “XYZ” and invite to re read the post and you respond accordingly if you feel it nessary.

Regards
Doug

[greenhill]

I appreciate your trying to be clear..

What I read is that you put the Quran side by side with the hadeeth and you go in to explain how it gets rated into being good or weak .. and from there go back to the Quran saying it is not 100% authentic...

If you are refering to the authenticity of the Quran it is something else, not how the hadeeths are compiled and authenticated.

The Quran was compiled and arranged in order during the lifetime of the prophet. It was only standardised later.


Very different form the collection of the hadeeths..


:peace:

[dwa2day]

I appreciate your trying to be clear..

What I read is that you put the Quran side by side with the hadeeth and you go in to explain how it gets rated into being good or weak .. and from there go back to the Quran saying it is not 100% authentic...

If you are refering to the authenticity of the Quran it is something else, not how the hadeeths are compiled and authenticated.

The Quran was compiled and arranged in order during the lifetime of the prophet. It was only standardised later.


Very different form the collection of the hadeeths..


:peace:

Hi Greenhill.
No that’s not quite correct. I am saying in my understanding of Islam the Quran is supreme, un-corrupted as per the revelation received by Muhammad from Allah and thus is the number one text of the Islamic faith. The Hadeeth is second only to the Quran and is used as a guide to understanding the Quran. What I would call a study guide or concordance.
The Hadeeth however rates the Quran’s verses as Authentic, Good or Weak. Therefore by implication the Quran is not a 100% Authentic as claimed by the Islamic faith.

Regards
Doug

[greenhill]

Aaah... I see...

No, that is not correct. . . Or at least, this is the first time I am hearing anyone saying that hadeeth rates the Quran verses.

No. It is the hadeeth that is rated by the 'ulama'.

I hope that clears up the matter. (No wonder I was so confused) :D


:peace:

Hope that

[dwa2day]

Aaah... I see...

No, that is not correct. . . Or at least, this is the first time I am hearing anyone saying that hadeeth rates the Quran verses.

No. It is the hadeeth that is rated by the 'ulama'.

I hope that clears up the matter. (No wonder I was so confused) :D


:peace:

Hope that

Oh ok, Please explain to me what is the Hadeeth based on and why is it rated. This is going to sound stupid but who or what is the 'ulama'.

Regards

[ardianto]

Oh ok, Please explain to me what is the Hadeeth based on and why is it rated. This is going to sound stupid but who or what is the 'ulama'.

Regards

Greetings Doug.

Hadith is testimony/narrative of people around prophet Muhammad (saw) about what prophet Muhammad (saw) said and did. In Example "When prophet Muhammad visited ..... he said like this, .. he did like that, ....". There is rate for hadith such as sahih (authentic), hasan (not so authentic), dhaif (weak), which based on few factors like reputation of people in chain of narration, etc.

While Ulama means "people who are mastering Islamic knowledge". The singular of Ulama is Aleem. It's based on the word "Ilm (knowledge).

Regards
Ardianto

[dwa2day]

Greetings Doug.

Hadith is testimony................................ based on the word "Ilm (knowledge).

Regards
Ardianto

Hi Ardianto
Ok that fair enough, do I understand then the testimony/narrative in the Hadeeth about what prophet Muhammad said and did is not related to the writings /sayings in the Quran.
Also in understand the (pbuh) what does (saw) stand for?
Regards
Doug

[ardianto]

Hi Ardianto
Ok that fair enough, do I understand then the testimony/narrative in the Hadeeth about what prophet Muhammad said and did is not related to the writings /sayings in the Quran.
Also in understand the (pbuh) what does (saw) stand for?
Regards
Doug

Not every thing about Islam mentioned in Qur'an. In example, how to perform salah (prayer). So, Muslims take it from hadith.

About (saw). The ethic of Muslims when mention name of prophet Muhammad is complete it with "Shallallahu Alayhi Wasallam " (saw) which means "May Allah give shalawat (bless/praise) and salam (peace/praise) upon him". While for other prophets Muslims say "Alaihis Salam" (as) which mean "Peace be upon him".

Regards
Ardianto

[dwa2day]

Not every thing about Islam mentioned in Qur'an. In example, how to perform salah (prayer). So, Muslims take it from hadith.

About (saw). The ethic of Muslims when mention name of prophet Muhammad is complete it with "Shallallahu Alayhi Wasallam " (saw) which means "May Allah give shalawat (bless/praise) and salam (peace/praise) upon him". While for other prophets Muslims say "Alaihis Salam" (as) which mean "Peace be upon him".

Regards
Ardianto

OK Ardianto, re saw I supposed as must did not know the exact phrase.
I think you have missed my question. I understand from your explination that the Hadeeth is testimony/narrative in the about what prophet Muhammad said and did during his life.

Is there any relationship between the Hadeeth and the Quran?

Regards
Doug

[ardianto]

OK Ardianto, re saw I supposed as must did not know the exact phrase.
I think you have missed my question. I understand from your explination that the Hadeeth is testimony/narrative in the about what prophet Muhammad said and did during his life.

Is there any relationship between the Hadeeth and the Quran?

Regards
Doug

Hmm, ... I don't really understand what you mean with relationship. But I explain the position of Qur'an and hadith in Islam.

There are many rules that Muslims have to follow. And these rules are based on two sources, Qur'an and sunnah (what prophet Muhammad (saw) did and narrated in hadith). Why not only Qur'an?. Because like I have said, not everything in Islam mentioned in Qur'an. So Muslims also follow guidance that sourced from hadith.

Regards
Ardianto

[dwa2day]

Hmm, ... I don't really understand what you mean with relationship. …………………….also follow guidance that sourced from hadith.

Regards
Ardianto

Relationship
Hi Ardianto
By relationship I means association, connection, link, affiliation. So my question would read
Is there a relationship, association, connection, link, affiliation between the Quran and Hadeeth.

Regards
Doug

[ardianto]

Relationship
Hi Ardianto
By relationship I means association, connection, link, affiliation. So my question would read
Is there a relationship, association, connection, link, affiliation between the Quran and Hadeeth.

Regards
Doug

Is not easy to find a word to explain. But, both Qur'an and Hadith are parallel, and Muslims follow both, which make it linked. It's like a railway, which Qur'an is one side of rail, while Hadith is the another side, and Muslims is like the train that run on it.

Maybe my explanation is confusing you. But, like I've said, not easy to find a word to explain it.

:)

[dwa2day]

Is not easy to find a word to explain. But, both Qur'an and Hadith are parallel, and Muslims follow both, which make it linked. It's like a railway, which Qur'an is one side of rail, while Hadith is the another side, and Muslims is like the train that run on it.

Maybe my explanation is confusing you. But, like I've said, not easy to find a word to explain it.

:)

No that make perfect sense. Thank you.

[dwa2day]

Hi Greenhill
You go further to say Islam stands alone with the Quran and the Hadith as its guide. I understand the Hadith is in essence reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet Mohamed. In addition they are evaluated by Muslim clerics as authentic, good or weak.
This by Muslim standards is saying the Quran in itself is also corrupt or rather been corrupted by Saran after Mohamed’s death.
Regards
Doug

After further discussion and comments it is clear my understanding of this has been incorrect and thus apologies to any person I may of offended by my this statement.
I trust I will continue to learn through further discussion in this forum.

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

I have posed the question to the Muslim community, Is Islam based on biblical Teaching? The response can be summarised as follows:-
The Quran is the uncountable word of Allah given to his prophet Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel. Anything that contradicts the Quran is thus false. Unlike the Quran the original text of the Bible have been lost therefore the Quran is because of the Bible as Gods final message to his people.

Secondly there is this undertone that the God of the Bible is in fact Allah as noted based on the premises Jew, Christians and Muslims all adhere to the principle that there is only one true God. Since the Quran has come to replace the Bible Allah and the God mentioned in Biblical text are the same person.

In reference to Allah’s unchanging word both the Bible and Quran are in agreement.

Surah 10:64
For them are good tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. No change is there in the words of Allah. That is what the great attainment is.
Surah 6:115-116
And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the . And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”
Malachi 3:6
“For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

However what seems to be hidden is the authority the Quran places on the Bible. I have found 14 Surahs that confirm this taken from www.quran.com the International Standard version, and fully quoted at the end of the text. Let us have a look at two of the verses.

Surha 3:3 He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
Surah 6:114-115 [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom we [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing

Nothing is said of the Torah or Gospel been lost or corrupted. If anything the Quran confirming that Muhammad had access to and understood the Bible all 66 books of the Old and New Testament. Further the Quran attest to the authority of the Bible.

Note also in Surah 6 the reference to the Lord of the Bible, not Allah, but this is another discussion. I must the concluded:-

1. No one can change the words of God.
2. The Bible (Torah, Injil) is the word of God.
3. Therefore, no one has or can change the Bible.

Look forward to your comments.

Surha 2:41 And believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is [already] with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And do not exchange My signs for a small price, and fear [only] Me.

Surha 2:89 And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.

Surha 2:101 And when a messenger from Allah came to them confirming that which was with them, a party of those who had been given the Scripture threw the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know [what it contained].

Surha 3:3He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Surah 3:50 And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

Surha 3:81 And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him." [ Allah ] said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?" They said, "We have acknowledged it." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

Surah 4:47 O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished.

Surah 5:48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Surah 6:92 And this is a Book which We have sent down, blessed and confirming what was before it, that you may warn the Mother of Cities and those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in it, and they are maintaining their prayers.

Surah 6:114-115 [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom we [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Surah 12:111 There was certainly in their stories a lesson for those of understanding. Never was the Qur'an a narration invented, but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of all things and guidance and mercy for a people who believe.

Surah 35:31 And that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], of the Book is the truth, confirming what was before it. Indeed, Allah , of His servants, is Acquainted and Seeing.

Surah 37:37 Rather, the Prophet has come with the truth and confirmed the [previous] messengers.

Surah 46:12 And before it was the scripture of Moses to lead and as a mercy. And this is a confirming Book in an Arabic tongue to warn those who have wronged and as good tidings to the doers of good.

Surah 46:30 They said, "O our people, indeed we have heard a [recited] Book revealed after Moses confirming what was before it which guides to the truth and to a straight path.

[ardianto]

Greetings, Doug.

I never say that Bible is corrupted, because like I have said in another thread that the word "corrupted" is excessive (in describing condition of Bible). I just say that Bible has been added with words that not originally from Bible. In example, verses that tell about situation after crucifixion. These verses clearly not from Bible because Bible revelation had been ended after crucifixion.

I am sure that Christians do not deny that there are words which not originally from Bible, but later added into Bible.

How about Muslims. Did Muslims do the same thing with Qur'an?. No. Muslims did not add any word into Qur'an, but made new books to be used together with Qur'an as guidance, like book of Hadith, book of tafseer (interpretation), etc. Muslims did that with purpose to make the words in Qur'an still pure without any addition.

By the way. The words "No change is there in the words of Allah" in Qur'an 10:64 does not refer to message in any holy book, but refer to God's promise that anyone who walk on His path will be saved and go to heaven, while anyone who walk not on His path will not be saved and will go to hell.

Just a little input from me. Hopefully it's beneficial.

Regards
Ardianto. :)

[dwa2day]

Hi Ardianto
Thanks for your reply. The definition of corrupt as per free dictionary.com is
Corrupt - adj.
1. Marked by immorality and perversion; depraved.
2. Venal or dishonest: a corrupt mayor.
3. Containing errors or alterations, especially ones that prevent proper understanding or use: a corrupt translation; acorrupt computer file.

I never say that Bible is corrupted, because like I have said in another thread that the word "corrupted" is excessive (in describing condition of Bible). I just say that Bible has been added with words that not originally from Bible.

Note the definition 3 uses the word alterations, which is the same as changes, amendments, adaptations or like you said additions. One in the same thing we do not need to mice words here to cloud the main point that the Quran affirms the authority of the Bible no less than 14 times. However I do appreciate you care in been more humble and soft about it.

I just say that Bible has been added with words that not originally from Bible. In example, verses that tell about situation after crucifixion. These verses clearly not from Bible because Bible revelation had been ended after crucifixion.

Please provide examples of these with references to the Bible without and without the addition as well as your motivation for stating this. Otherwise I see this as just someone typing to sound informed. Without focusing on the topic, The Quran affirms the Bible as the true and respectful word of God, which Mohammad himself had access to.

I am sure that Christians do not deny that there are words which not originally from Bible, but later added into Bible.

Any person who professors to be a Christian and accepts your claim above, I tell you directly without been polite, they are not a true follower of Jesus Christ, reject them as you would Satan. If not corrected they will not enjoy paradise.
I am unsure of your standing as far a biblical studding goes, or even if you have access to a bible. If you do, take the time to read the preface of a Bible and you will see the care taken to ensure correct translation form the source document that predate Islam available to us today.
Besides from my previous post and your reply it is clear Mohammed had a Bible and attest to it authority as the Word of God. Notting you fail to reject this so one must accept that you agree to the authority the Quran has placed on Biblical text.
If you want a deeper understanding of the accuracy of the Bible I will gladly assist you. But please know we are taught that our salvation is ours to work out and not the responsibility of our leaders.

No. Muslims did not add any word into Qur'an, but made new books to be used together with Qur'an as guidance, like book of Hadith, book of tafseer (interpretation), etc. Muslims did that with purpose to make the words in Qur'an still pure without any addition.

I disagree, but am in the process of referencing different translation of the Quran at present and will revert back to you once I have.

By the way. The words "No change is there in the words of Allah" in Qur'an 10:64 does not refer to message in any holy book, but refer to God's promise that anyone who walk on His path will be saved and go to heaven, while anyone who walk not on His path will not be saved and will go to hell.

I think you have not read my post properly and making an error with regard to what I have said. Alternatively you are simply making an argument to avoid addressing the heart of my post. That the Quran confirms the authority of the Bible as God written word.

In reference to Allah’s unchanging word both the Bible and Quran are in agreement.
Surah 10:64
For them are good tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. No change is there in the words of Allah. That is what the great attainment is.

I see no mention of hell. However it clear states that Allah’s word will not be changed. Which is my point.

Regards
Doug

[ardianto]

Greetings. And thank you very much for your reply, Doug.

Since I am not Christian I have no problem if Bible changed or not because I do not follow Bible. But actually I just wanted to clarify misunderstanding about "Bible is corrupted" among Muslims.

I never studied Bible, and never read the whole Bible. I just often read Christian's articles which include Biblical verses, and I found some verses which tell about situation after crucifixion. It made me wonder "Isn't Bible revelation has ended when crucifixion happened?". Some Muslims saw the same thing too and wonder too. However, me and those some Muslims do not regard that Bible is corrupted in definition that you described above. And if there are Muslims who believe that Bible has been corrupted in that definition, this is their own conclusion.

I will not questioning Bible, and I will not argue you if you say the verses about post-crucifixion are original from Bible. Actually I was standing on neutral side when I wrote my previous post and just wanted to clarify from what I have noticed. But if you sure my clarification was wrong, thanks for correcting me.

Now about Qur’an. The Qur'an indeed, confirms the authority of the Bible as God written word. However, Qur'an 10:64 does not refer to messages in Bible, but refer to God's promise. You will know it if you read previous verses, not just surah 10:64. Meanwhile the definition of Qur'an itself refer to the Arabic Qur'an, not to its translation in other languages which the translators can write any word based on their own interpretation.

Thanks for your offer to assist me in Biblical study. But to be honest, I prefer if we talk about gardening, traveling, or program to help poor people. If you want to be friend with me, with pleasure I will become your friend. I have been interacted with Christian people since I was born. I was born in family which some of maternal relatives are Protestant Christians. I studied in Catholic elementary school and was close with my teachers who some of them were Franciscan nuns. Few of my close friends in the real world are Christians too.

Regards
Ardianto. :)

[dwa2day]

Hi Ardianto.
Thank you for your reply, I found it interesting reading.

Let me try and place the authority of the Bible in perspective for you. I saw a quote the other day that read, “I was made Awesome, not Perfect.” That is the essence of our human nature, any person that claims there are no errors in the translation of the Bible is a fool.

Now what is meant by error? Synonyms are: - mistake, fault, inaccuracy, miscalculation, oversight or misprint. An error does not mean corrupt, unethical, fraudulent or dishonest.

Yes translators have made some serious blunders and you going to have a field day on this example here. There is a translation of the Bible known as the Judas Bible, very few were printed before the error was noted. The error was and misprint in a single verse were Jesus name was printed as Judas. These types of errors are not often made and by no means cause toc all the Bile Corrupt. So yes error are made and corrections are done and reprints note these changes.

The question one should be asking is: - Is the reader made aware of the changes or problem that are encountered by the team of translators from the ancient source documents into the readers language? Yes these are noted as a foot note in the Bible. Commonly a foot note would read in reference to a word, “the Hebrew word is unclear.” Another example would be MU-Text “pass through” Septuagint “walk through”. For your understanding MU = Masoretic or Hebrew Text and Septuagint is the Greek used in translation of the Bible.

The above is a simple example and by no means a detailed investigation of Bible translations. I am afraid of one been guilty of promoting the Bible and thus contravene the rule so the site and two I am here to learn about Islam and not the Bible.

"Isn't Bible revelation has ended when crucifixion happened?"
Curbing my desire to give a detailed explanation let me say the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is the end of Gods plan of salvation as seen in the context and laid out in the Bible from Adam to Jesus Christ. However the story does not end there, how is this plan of salvation to be applied in one’s life, how did the apostle deal with, what help do we have and final builds to Jesus Christ second coming when He to fetch His followers.

With regard to 10:64 I understand it as Allah’s promise as well.

You go further to say “Meanwhile the definition of Qur'an itself refer to the Arabic Qur'an not to its translation in other languages which the translators can write any word based on their own interpretation.”
1) Here I need help as I cannot read Arabic, I am sure many Muslims are in the same position I am.
2) Do I then understand that of the Quran into English is not accepted and an authentic Quran and thus also seen as corrupt.

Sorry for the above I read only now as you put it prefer gardening etc. My one desire is to help prisoners. My friend joke and tell me it is because I have a captive audience. Many prisoners are Muslim in our country. You may interested that the prison closest to me is called Victor Verster Prison, this is where I have been most involved. This is where Nelson Mandela was released from and his grand walk to freedom occurred.

However if you can offer any insight to me into Islam it would be appreciated.

Regards
Doug




Thanks for your offer to assist me in Biblical study. But to be honest, I prd to regrefer if we talk about gardening, traveling, or program to help poor people. If you want to be friend with me, with pleasure I will become your friend. I have been interacted with Christian people since I was born. I was born in family which some of maternal relatives are Protestant Christians. I studied in Catholic elementary school and was close with my teachers who some of them were Franciscan nuns. Few of my close friends in the real world are Christians too.

Regards
Dou

[ardianto]

Greetings Doug.

Thank you very much for your reply.

I apologize if what I said that I prefer to talk about gardening, than study Bible maybe sound offensive. But it's because I tend to respect the faith privacy of people from other religion. I am worry if I studied Bible then I would fall into attitude which I start to criticize Christianity. I prefer to co-operate with people from other faiths in the area of humanity. Although if I have question about other religion I never hesitate to ask.

I myself just an ordinary Muslim. My knowledge is not high enough to teach Islam. But if you have question, and I can answer, don't be hesitate to ask.

Regards
Ardianto

[dwa2day]

Greetings Doug.

Thank you very much for your reply.

I apologize if what I said that I prefer to talk about gardening, than study Bible maybe sound offensive. But it's because I tend to respect the faith privacy of people from other religion. I am worry if I studied Bible then I would fall into attitude which I start to criticize Christianity. I prefer to co-operate with people from other faiths in the area of humanity. Although if I have question about other religion I never hesitate to ask.

I myself just an ordinary Muslim. My knowledge is not high enough to teach Islam. But if you have question, and I can answer, don't be hesitate to ask.

Regards
Ardianto

Hi Ardianto
I takes a lot more to offend me than talking about the garden, sorry if you got that impression.
I feel sad to read your knowledge is not higher enough to teach Islam. This is the joy I get from Christianity we have the helper, comforter or Holy Spirit as a guide in our lives. Thus through His direction every Christian has something to offer. It is our worldly system that states one needs education and status to be heard.
If fact most Christians do more work for God in the early part of their faith than later, because of the restriction the so called Church puts on your faith and the need for people to belong and recognised with in a specific group. When focusing on Jesus and His purpose for your life should be ones goal.
My Question is simple. How does a Muslim know he is going to paradise?

Regards
Doug

[ardianto]

My Question is simple. How does a Muslim know he is going to paradise?

My friend Doug,

a Muslim who understand Islam would not dare to say that he will go to paradise, because no one know where they will go in the hereafter before they arrive in hereafter and face the last trial. Muslims who collect rewards more than sins, indeed, will to to paradise. But Muslims who collect sins more than rewards will go to the hell.

Unfortunately, nowadays there are people who dare to give guarantee that a Muslim will go to paradise if he join in specific group, or do specific action. The worse is, there are Muslims who deceived by this 'guarantee'. We can see the effect of this in act of terrorism that committed by few Muslims.

Those Muslim terrorists believed that act of terrorism that they did would bring them to paradise. They believed it because they believed the people who gave them guarantee that they would go to paradise. That's why they did not feel guilty when they killed innocent people.

"Selling ticket to paradise" is troubling phenomenon that happen in the Muslim world nowadays, and become concerns from Muslims scholars all over the world. This is why, one program of Muslim scholars nowadays is educate people that no one in the world can give guarantee that a Muslim will go to paradise.

Will I go to paradise?, or will I go to the hell?. Honestly, I don't know. But I will know it after I arrive in the hereafter. That's why I always try to collect rewards and avoid commit sin, as best I can do.

Regards
Ardianto

[dwa2day]

My friend Doug,

a Muslim who understand Islam would not dare to say that he will go to paradise, because no one know where they will go in the hereafter before they arrive in hereafter and face the last trial. Muslims who collect rewards more than sins, indeed, will to to paradise. But Muslims who collect sins more than rewards will go to the hell.
Regards
Ardianto

Hi Ardianto
Ok that’s quite simple and much the same as the Old Testament Law, live in hope that you do more good than bad at the same time hoping that Satan dose not tempt you to much.
Do you think this is attainable?
Regards
Doug

[MidnightRose]

I have posed the question to the Muslim community, Is Islam based on biblical Teaching? The response can be summarised as follows:-
The Quran is the uncountable word of Allah given to his prophet Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel. Anything that contradicts the Quran is thus false. Unlike the Quran the original text of the Bible have been lost therefore the Quran is because of the Bible as Gods final message to his people.

Secondly there is this undertone that the God of the Bible is in fact Allah as noted based on the premises Jew, Christians and Muslims all adhere to the principle that there is only one true God. Since the Quran has come to replace the Bible Allah and the God mentioned in Biblical text are the same person.

In reference to Allah’s unchanging word both the Bible and Quran are in agreement.

Surah 10:64
For them are good tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. No change is there in the words of Allah. That is what the great attainment is.
Surah 6:115-116
And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the . And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”
Malachi 3:6
“For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

However what seems to be hidden is the authority the Quran places on the Bible. I have found 14 Surahs that confirm this taken from www.quran.com the International Standard version, and fully quoted at the end of the text. Let us have a look at two of the verses.

Surha 3:3 He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
Surah 6:114-115 [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom we [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing

Nothing is said of the Torah or Gospel been lost or corrupted. If anything the Quran confirming that Muhammad had access to and understood the Bible all 66 books of the Old and New Testament. Further the Quran attest to the authority of the Bible.

Note also in Surah 6 the reference to the Lord of the Bible, not Allah, but this is another discussion. I must the concluded:-

1. No one can change the words of God.
2. The Bible (Torah, Injil) is the word of God.
3. Therefore, no one has or can change the Bible.

Look forward to your comments.

Surha 2:41 And believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is [already] with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And do not exchange My signs for a small price, and fear [only] Me.

Surha 2:89 And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.

Surha 2:101 And when a messenger from Allah came to them confirming that which was with them, a party of those who had been given the Scripture threw the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know [what it contained].

Surha 3:3He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Surah 3:50 And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

Surha 3:81 And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him." [ Allah ] said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?" They said, "We have acknowledged it." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

Surah 4:47 O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished.

Surah 5:48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Surah 6:92 And this is a Book which We have sent down, blessed and confirming what was before it, that you may warn the Mother of Cities and those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in it, and they are maintaining their prayers.

Surah 6:114-115 [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom we [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Surah 12:111 There was certainly in their stories a lesson for those of understanding. Never was the Qur'an a narration invented, but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of all things and guidance and mercy for a people who believe.

Surah 35:31 And that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], of the Book is the truth, confirming what was before it. Indeed, Allah , of His servants, is Acquainted and Seeing.

Surah 37:37 Rather, the Prophet has come with the truth and confirmed the [previous] messengers.

Surah 46:12 And before it was the scripture of Moses to lead and as a mercy. And this is a confirming Book in an Arabic tongue to warn those who have wronged and as good tidings to the doers of good.

Surah 46:30 They said, "O our people, indeed we have heard a [recited] Book revealed after Moses confirming what was before it which guides to the truth and to a straight path.

* links are underlined and in bold green color

Greetings @dwa2day

I just thought I'd share some information about Islam in relation to your post above.

Many people believe that the terms Injeel and Bible are interchangeable. They are not.

According to Islam:

• The Torah was revealed to Musa :as:.
• The Injeel was revealed to Isa :as: - also known as Jesus.

​

We sent Isa, son of Maryam, and gave him the Injeel. (Surah 57: part of verse 27)

Even according to Christian theology, the New Testament was not revealed to Isa (Jesus) :as:.

The Bible contains the Torah, and the not revealed to Isa (Jesus):as: New Testament.

The Bible, as a book, was not revealed to any Islamically recognized Prophet.

Therefore, the Qur’an isn’t referring to either the Bible or New Testament, as none of them were revealed to Isa (Jesus) :as:, or any Islamically recognized Prophet.

In sum, Islamically:

1. The Bible is not what the Quran describes as the Injeel
2. The Bible should not be confused with the Injeel
3. The Bible should not be attributed to Isa :as:
4. The New Testament should not be attributed to Isa :as:
5. At best, the New Testament is a historical record (ahadith) with questionable chains of transmission
6. Allah knows best what happened to the Injeel

Additionally:

The foundation of the Islamic faith is based on the truthfulness of the Messenger of Allah :saws:.

The renowned Islamic scholar, Mawlana Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi :rh: has mentioned:

"Absolute truthfulness and dependability of a messenger of God constitute the first and the most essential factor for acceptance of his mission."

(Muhammad Rasulullah: The Apostle of Mercy, p. 111)

The wisdom of Allah is indeed amazing. Muhammad :saws: interacted with society for 40 years prior to being commissioned as a Prophet by Allah. This resulted in the Prophet Muhammad's :saws: truthfulness being confirmed by all who knew him. It is for this reason that he was known as Al-Amin. Those that refused to acknowledge the message of revelation realized that he wasn't a liar. Thus, their rejections were for a variety of other reasons.

As stated of the Prophet :saws: by Mawlana Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi :rh::

"From early youth, the unobtrusive youngman was known for his gentle disposition and austere purity of his life as well as his candidness, honesty and integrity and the stern sense of duty. His was the straight and narrow path and none could find the slightest fault with him. The fair character and honourable bearing of the Apostle won for him, in the flower of his youth, the title of Al-Amin, the Trusty, from his fellow citizens."

(Muhammad Rasulullah: The Apostle of Mercy, pp. 97-98)

The reports of the Prophet Muhammad's :saws: truthfulness are of the highest degree of authenticity due to their being mutawatir. The definition of this Islamic term is:

"A mass-transmitted report that is transmitted from one generation to the next in such large numbers, that one could not imagine that they conspired to forge it."

(See The Preservation of Hadith)

According to the principles of Islam, one of the processes involved in evaluating a report is the scrutiny of the reporter's biography. In an Islamic context, the messenger is of no less importance than the message itself. For a glimpse of who Mawlana Sayyid Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi :rh: was, please see the following: About Mawlana Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi.

In light of this, the knowledge of the Shari'ah has a specific method of transmission. There are no clerics in Islam. There are people who have spent time and effort learning Islam and it's principles. They become experts (i.e. scholars/ulama) in understanding, practicing, and explaining Islam to others and are known by various titles (i.e. Shaykh, Maulana, etc.) People, thus, look to them for guidance. These subject-matter experts are not a separate class of people as in Catholicism, for example.

"The method in which this divine knowledge was passed down to us by our predecessors was from heart to heart which required one to be under the direct tutorship and supervision of ‘Ulama. The first teacher of this ummah was our beloved Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) who taught the Sahaba (radhiyallahu ‘anhum), they then taught the Tabi’een (rahimahumullah), who in turn taught the Tab’e Tabi’een (rahimahullah) and who in turn taught our predecessors. As such, the knowledge of Shari’ah was transferred from generation to generation in this manner."

Source: http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/30663

The knowledge of Shari’ah continues to be transmitted this way. The verification of its authenticity can be ascertained by becoming acquainted with the people who are part of this method of education. The image below shows the chains of transmission in ahadith for Shaykh Mansur Memon Madani, Shaykh al-Hadith Abdul Moiz, Shaykh Ibrahim Memon Madani, and Mufti Husain Ahmed Madani. They are all currently teachers at Darul Uloom Canada.

Image obtained from:http://enterthesunnah.com/bloggers-short-bios/.

A high quality version can be obtained by clicking on the following link: https://bukhari2013.files.wordpress....4/05/sanad.pdf

With the context established above, if-then statements and/or criteria for comprehending the authenticity of Islamic narratives – such as the Qur’an – are not contingent on non-Islamic understandings/philosophy/logic. Shaikh Ibrahim Madani - a high-level subject matter expert of traditional Islam - has stated that the correct way for a Muslim to understand everything, including historical narratives in the Qur’an, is through what Muhammad :saws: has taught us.

For example:

• All historical narratives in the Qur’an are from Allah.
• Muhammad’s :saws: truthfulness is established beyond a reasonable doubt.
• Therefore, the authenticity of Qur’anic narratives are not contingent on non-Muslim beliefs/philosophy/logic.
• They are contingent on what Muhammad :saws: told us.

We, as Muslims, do not accept any other authority on this matter and we learn the context of this information from subject-matter experts like those mentioned above.

[ardianto]

Hi Ardianto
Ok that’s quite simple and much the same as the Old Testament Law, live in hope that you do more good than bad at the same time hoping that Satan dose not tempt you to much.
Do you think this is attainable?
Regards
Doug

Greetings, Doug.

I cannot hope satan will not tempt me too much because satan has vowed to always mislead human. But I believe that Allah will give me strength to face satan temptation if I always close to Him.

Regards
Ardianto

[greenhill]

....
................

My Question is simple. How does a Muslim know he is going to paradise?

Regards
Doug

We only enter paradise through the Mercy of Allah.

How do we gain His Mercy? That should be our intention. Without it, all the action counts for nothing. Have patience with what Allah has decided for you.

Always be thankful. If you want Allah to be Forgiving with you, you need to be forgiving with others..

Perhaps with following His bidding willingly we will be granted His Mercy when we meet Him on Judgment Day.

[dwa2day]

The Bible, as a book, was not revealed to any Islamically recognized Prophet.
Therefore, the Qur’an isn’t referring to either the Bible or New Testament, as none of them were revealed to Isa (Jesus)

, or any Islamically recognized Prophet.

Yet as per my post #77 the Quran clearly confirms the full authority of the Bible.
Thus I find you reply somewhat contradictory and avoids answering the question. For example you say

The Bible, as a book, was not revealed to any Islamically recognized Prophet.
According to Islam The Torah was revealed to Musa

.

Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

We only enter paradise through the Mercy of Allah.

How do we gain His Mercy? That should be our intention. Without it, all the action counts for nothing. Have patience with what Allah has decided for you.

Always be thankful. If you want Allah to be Forgiving with you, you need to be forgiving with others..

Perhaps with following His bidding willingly we will be granted His Mercy when we meet Him on Judgment Day.

Hi Greenhill
Do you think this is attainable for you?

Regards
Doug

[MidnightRose]

Yet as per my post #77 the Quran clearly confirms the full authority of the Bible.
Thus I find you reply somewhat contradictory and avoids answering the question. For example you say




Regards
Doug

Avoiding what you don't like will get you nowhere here. This thread is now closed.