format_quote Originally Posted by
aaj
By that token we can celebrate other holidays as well. We can celebrate Halloween, all it is is just a fun night for people to dress up in costumes and have some fun and kids to get some free candies. Right?
That's been my experience, yes. That's just a bit different though, since Halloween began as something that was religious in nature and its historical progression cannot be held harmless when it comes to Christianity (or Abrahamic religions in general). Some of the dressing up is essentially a nod to the harm found within that history and that progression, and although it is fairly harmless, I can understand people (even if I'm not inclined to join them) who feel some type of way about that, because there is something in the way of
actual harm
to your religion
that's got something to do with the thing. In this case, the thing is Halloween.
Thanksgiving is different. It's never been specifically religious in nature- atheists can give thanks to their people, and theists can give thanks to whatever deity or supreme being they choose or any type of people they want- and it would be far more accurate to say it is, and always has been, the sort of thing that....
can be held perfectly harmless
really, completely harmless
when it comes to religion in general and, if this is your specific interest, Islam in particular.
Therefore, I don't think a complete equivalency is something that can be comfortably made between these two holidays. Halloween, or All Hallow's Eve if you prefer (the eve of All Saint's Day) was and to a certain extent still kind of is a holy day, in the proper and Church-originated sense of the word Holiday.
Thanksgiving is nothing of the sort.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
Any particular reason why that might be?
As I mentioned, this is not a religious holiday, like christmas, and therefore it would not be haram (forbidden) to participate in it on that basis.
At this moment, if I'm understanding you correctly, we seem to agree. Thanksgiving- unlike Christmas or Easter or Halloween (in a provisional sense) is not any type of religious holiday, it can and ought to be held harmless where Islam is concerned, and so Muslims should not claim that there is any religious issue with participating when invited to do so.
But at the same time we are forbidden in imitating the non-believers so as to differentiate between us and them. Does this mean everything that they do is not allowed? of course not, what this refers to is partaking in something that is specific to a nation of people.
Somehow, I doubt that is the exact thing that it really means. Do you have any sources? I wouldn't want you to be guided by something that you made up on the fly- or, worse yet, try to guide others with that thing.
Oh, there's just one other thing. What if a Muslim happens to be an American? You know, an actual American. Someone who specifically belongs to the nation of the people that they live around. In this particular instance, we actually might want to think such a person is an American, because they are in fact Americans.
I love turkey just as the next guy and it's the only time of the year you can get halal turkey but that doesn't mean I have to participate in it THAT specific day. I have mine on the weekend, like a normal dinner like any other day of the week.
But what if you are invited to someone else's home when they're doing the thing? One of the best times I've ever had with my family at Thanksgiving was when most of my family got together, and we also hosted a Vietnamese/Chinese couple, a Shia Muslim from Saudi Arabia, a formerly-Sunni Muslim from Syria who's now an atheist, the stepson of an Angolan senator, a mother and daughter from Ukraine, and a couple of older neighbors who didn't have any of their people coming to town.
Nobody thought any of those people were Americans. Here's what we actually thought: This is a day on which everyone is off work, and there's nothing to do if you want to go out anywhere. But for that particular Thanksgiving, my extended family hosted a larger-than-usual get-together mainly so they could have something to do. They decided that socializing with friends and meeting some new friends was better than being at home doing nothing.
What exactly is wrong with this exact scenario? Who is harmed, and in what way? Do you honestly think anyone would be confused by such a thing?
I'm trying to read your objection as carefully as I can, but quite frankly, the more I go over it that more I think you're talking out both sides of your mouth. On one hand, it's not a religious holiday, you don't seem to think anyone is being harmed by this sort of thing, and it's not haram. On the other hand, you are forbidden from partaking in something "that is specific to a nation of people."
Here's an idea. If you are not an American, but you somehow find yourself in America and you've been invited to participate, why don't you let this nation and those people decide whether or not you're forbidden. If you are invited to a thing, you are not forbidden. You are the opposite of forbidden.
Let me put it to you this way. Imagine your American friend is on the phone with you.
Friend: What are you doing for Thanksgiving? It's not like anything is open, you can't really go anywhere....we'd love to have you over for dinner. I understand you're a Muslim, we can work with the dietary restrictions, there isn't any religious issue with this right?
You: No, there's no religious issue, it's not haram because it's not any sort of religious holiday. However....I don't want anyone to think I'm imitating you, so although there's no religious prohibition, I'm forbidden from participating.
Friend: No, you're not forbidden, I just invited you. Do you want to come over or not?
As for the sitting down, eating food and talking to people. That can be done on any other day as well, it does not have to be on this specific day.
But it could, and on this day it's most convenient, since pretty much everyone is off work and able to travel. Which means there actually are a bunch of people that you can only see on this day, or over the course of this long weekend.
You could avoid socializing with people on any other day as well, so why would you pick this specific day to be anti-social? It's not for religious reasons, at least not in the sense that it is haram. And yet at the same time, you also said it's forbidden. Which is basically what haram means. And that is the main thing that's confusing me in your response- early on, you say this is not haram. And later, you say it's forbidden.
I'm actually confused here.
I do not know why you find it offensive. If you invite me over for dinner and get together any other day, I would be more than happy to accept it.
The reason it's mildly offensive is because you appear to have a bias
not a hard and fast rule, but a bias
towards being anti-social on a day when everyone is freed up from work, a lot of people travel, and the main reason for doing so is for socializing purposes.
Do you have a general bias against socializing with people in this context on this particular day? Do you have a bias in favor of socializing on this particular day? Or are you indifferent, and whether you're favorable, anti, or indifferent, is it the same sort of bias every day?
Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying. If you have a bias against doing this sort of thing (on this particular day), that's mildly offensive. If you are indifferent in the same way as you are every other day, that's more understandable.
But if you've been invited to something by friends that you actually know pretty well, "indifferent" is generally not the right sort of attitude to have on any given day. Just in terms of how you should treat friends in general, you should have an everyday bias in favor of seeing them. If we are talking about some actual friends of yours, you should have a bias in favor of going to see them on every weekend, every Thursday, and any other day as long as they're free and you're free and nobody has scheduling conflicts. Here's the thing with Thanksgiving though- it eliminates the scheduling conflict. If you're around and within easy traveling distance, this should be doable and everyone knows it.
So....what's you bias, good bad or even? And what will your bias be over the weekend, or next week, or in the middle of December? Do you have some sort of bias that you turn on and off for Thanksgiving, or do you operate the same as on any other day?
This isn't about you, it is about us and what we are allowed and not allowed to do in accordance with Islam.
And this is allowed. As far as I know. And according to half of what you said.
The whole trim your mustache and grow your beard command was given so as to differentiate the Muslim men from the non-Muslims. The whole basis of it is so you are not mistaken for one of them whom you imitate but rather stand out as a Muslim with Muslim identity. Same goes for hijab, so that the women are recognized as respectable believing women and are not bothered.
That sounds like a basis for religious differentiation. This is not a religious holiday, so what is the issue?
Imagine if a Muslim woman, while wearing a hijab, goes to the home of some friends for Thanksgiving. And she goes with her husband, who has a nice long beard. Everyone knows they're Muslims. There is no religious issue here.
But then people start to wonder if they are US citizens, if they were born in this country, perhaps they were born somewhere else but then came to the US and became citizens, maybe they have a work permit or are here for school and they may or may not become citizens at a later time....
And none of that has anything to do with their Muslim identity. Who cares if these Muslims are US citizens? Does it really matter? I'm not even going to pick an outcome for this couple, because I don't think it matters one bit. Are you honestly concerned about that? I understand the importance of making the religious distinction- and this is very easily done while still participating in a Thanksgiving meal- but who honestly cares what their citizenship is? No one is going to ask to see their paperwork, our hypothetical couple wouldn't expect to need it, and unlike their religious identity, the name of their homeland is Not something that they concern themselves with broadcasting.
So you've brought up the issue of religious identity. And for about the fifth time, I'm saying this is a scenario where that is not a concern, and this is a secular holiday that can be held harmless.
That's not really your call nor your place to determine whether it's haram or not. This is not my opinion either, but rather what the scholars have stated based on the command of the Prophet :
Okay, I'm glad you have a source.
It is forbidden for a Muslim to prepare a turkey dinner on Thanksgiving because this is an imitation of non-Muslims. It is confirmed in an authentic narration that whoever imitates a people is one of them.
Okay. Cool. But what if someone else prepares the dinner and invites a Muslim over? Is that haram? The Muslim did not prepare the turkey.
More to the point, what if the Muslim in question is an American? The same way I'm an American. Meaning....we're both Americans. In other words, when it comes to America, these Muslim American citizens are, in a nationalist sense, "one of us." Is this meant to push back against the idea that Muslims can be truly American, just like any other American?
Is it worth pointing out that the authentic hadith in question was probably dealing more exclusively with tribal identity, and perhaps this issue of national identity is a different sort of thing to puzzle out?
The prohibition of resembling the non-Muslims is not restricted to inward actions [beliefs, actions of the heart] and intentions, but also to outward actions.
I really would have thought it would be restricted to religious actions, though. But again, it's possible that with the source in question, it's operating with a different scenario that doesn't involve any sort of national identity.
it is permissible for the family to gather on that day because it is a holiday but without making this day as a festival and imitating the non-Muslims in their eating traditions and the like. It should be a family gathering like all other gatherings throughout the year [without any special food, settings or decorations].
I wonder if the author of this authentic hadith could have possibly conceived of secular governance and a diversity of religious identities that are held separate from a national identity....in other words, is Islam truly opposed to a common secular national identity, or does some of your religious material simply predate any such thing?
This is the islamic stand on this matter.
Well, it's one Islamic stand on the matter. Thank you for the source though.
What Muslims do personally varies on their level of knowledge and commitment to their religion.
It may also depend on what other Islamic stands exist on the matter. Try to imagine that a different Muslim has the same level as knowledge as you, perhaps even more, the same amount of commitment to Islam, perhaps even more, and they still reach a different conclusion as you.
Doable?