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.alhamdulillah.
01-20-2017, 02:28 PM
A Problem Regarding the Text and Transmission of the Qur'an
Many Muslims assume that the Qur'an is superior to all other Scriptures. The Qur'an alone judges all other Scriptures and cannot be judged by them.
The problem with this concept of many Muslims regarding the collection and transmission of the Qur'an is the vast amount of evidence from good Muslim sources that conflicts with it. Here we limit our discussion to one segment of the evidence, namely, the fact that prior to the recension of Uthman, other Qur'an collectors and reciters had engaged in preparing their own Qur'an codices. Of these we refer to two individuals: Abdullah ibn Mas`ud and Ubai ibn Ka`b.
1. Before Uthman's Qur'an was sent to Kufah, the people of Kufah used a Qur'an prepared by Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, a servant and Companion of Muhammad, one of the earliest reciters of the Qur'an, and one of the four persons to whom Muhammad guided his followers to learn the Qur'an. He claimed that he had learned about 70 surahs directly from Muhammad. Since he was considered an authority on the Qur'an and lived in Kufah, it is not surprising that he refused to give up his copy of the Qur'an in favour of Uthman's copy and that the Kufans supported his decision.
Islamic source materials reveal significant differences between Uthman's text and text of Ibn Mas`ud. Ibn Mas`ud's text even omits Surahs 1, 113 and 114.1 Jeffery's collection of his variant readings occupies 89 pages of his book!2
Narrated Shaqiq:
`Abdullah said, "I learnt An-Naza'ir which the Prophet () used to recite in pairs in each rak`a." Then `Abdullah got up and Alqama accompanied him to his house, and when Alqama came out, we asked him (about those Suras). He said, "They are twenty Suras that start from the beginning of Al- Mufassal, according to the arrangement done be Ibn Mas`ud, and end with the Suras starting with Ha Mim, e.g. Ha Mim (the Smoke). and "About what they question one another?" (78.1) : Sahih al-Bukhari 4996

2. A second of the four reciters of the Qur'an singled out by Muhammad as the best teachers of the Qur'an was Ubai ibn Ka`b. He served as a secretary for Muhammad in Medina and eventually compiled his own pre-Uthmanic text of the Qur'an which spread especially in Syria. Many of his variant readings agree with those in Ibn Mas`ud's text. His compilation is especially distinguished by the addition of two extra surahs, a distinction which was shared also by the codex of Ibn Abbas, the renowned Quranic commentator. These surahs in translation read:
O Allah, we seek your help and ask your forgiveness,and we praise you and do not disbelieve in you.We separate from and leave who sin against you. (al-Khal', `Separation')
O Allah, we worship you and to you we pray and prostrate and to you we run and hasten to serve you.We hope for your mercy and we fear your punishment. Your punishment will certainly reach the unbelievers (al-Hafd, `Haste')
From the above evidence alone, it is obvious that many variant readings from pre-Uthmanic collections of the Qur'an continue to exist even after Uthman's order that they be destroyed.

Let’s turn to Yusuf Ali's Translation and Commentary of the Holy Qur'an for further evidences. Yusuf Ali refers to a variant reading in Ubai ibn Ka`b's codex of the Qur'an which reads: "… and he is a father to them"? With this addition, Qur'an 33:6 would read: The Prophet is closer
To the believers than
Their own selves,
And he is a father to them
And his wives are
Their mothers…
Why does Yusuf Ali cite this variant? Is it possible that he sees this variant as an improvement? Moreover, why does he refer to different Qur'an readings, however small, in Notes 2666 and 2948?
After reading this, however, one is still left with the difficulty of resolving the tension between this text's acknowledged existence of Quranic variations vs. this same text's assertion that
none can have any doubt whatsoever regarding its authenticity and immunity and purity from any and every kind of addition or omission or alteration, for there is nothing so authentic in the whole human history as this fact about the Qur'an that it is the same Qur'an that was presented by the Holy Prophet to the world.
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M.I.A.
01-20-2017, 03:00 PM
i read the yusaf ali translation (hard copy) although i have to say i have never read the commentary or even noticed it.. o_o

moreso these days i use the available texts on the internet.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation....er=33&verse=40

it feels strange that a chain of authenic hadith is preserved and yet a chain of alternate qurans is not..

for the most part.

i am a layman and i hope this does not detract from the topic in any way.

the subject of abrogation is covered in the quran and a person has to ask if what is added or removed is significant..

or repeated in the quran.
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talibilm
01-20-2017, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i read the yusaf ali translation (hard copy) although i have to say i have never read the commentary or even noticed it.. o_o

moreso these days i use the available texts on the internet.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation....er=33&verse=40

it feels strange that a chain of authenic hadith is preserved and yet a chain of alternate qurans is not..

for the most part.

i am a layman and i hope this does not detract from the topic in any way.

the subject of abrogation is covered in the quran and a person has to ask if what is added or removed is significant..

or repeated in the quran.
:sl:

think you are confused between with translations & Text . there can be many translations . but the Arabic Quran & its Text is One . Though vowels were added after a century made a little difference for outsiders non Arabs.
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.alhamdulillah.
01-20-2017, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i read the yusaf ali translation (hard copy) although i have to say i have never read the commentary or even noticed it.. o_o

moreso these days i use the available texts on the internet.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation....er=33&verse=40

it feels strange that a chain of authenic hadith is preserved and yet a chain of alternate qurans is not..

for the most part.

i am a layman and i hope this does not detract from the topic in any way.

the subject of abrogation is covered in the quran and a person has to ask if what is added or removed is significant..

or repeated in the quran.
Originally Posted by talibilm
:sl:

think you are confused between with translations & Text . there can be many translations . but the Arabic Quran & its Text is One . Though vowels were added after a century made a little difference for outsiders non Arabs.
Yea i am just confused on what is going on here. Are they saying there are differences in what is in the Quran?

Before Uthman, the Quran was different?
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talibilm
01-20-2017, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i read the yusaf ali translation (hard copy) although i have to say i have never read the commentary or even noticed it.. o_o

moreso these days i use the available texts on the internet.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation....er=33&verse=40

it feels strange that a chain of authenic hadith is preserved and yet a chain of alternate qurans is not..

for the most part.

i am a layman and i hope this does not detract from the topic in any way.

the subject of abrogation is covered in the quran and a person has to ask if what is added or removed is significant..

or repeated in the quran.
Regarding abrogation nothing was moved in & out of the noble Quran as which was present in Prophet's time is known from the hadith. hope this thread clears that doubt as well

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-Contradicting


Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:
I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara:
"Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without turning them out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it is), O the Son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the Quranuran) from its original position."


Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 53

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:
I said to 'Uthman bin 'Affan (while he was collecting the Qur'an) regarding the Verse:-- "Those of you who die and leave wives ..." (2.240) "This Verse was abrogated by an other Verse. So why should you write it? (Or leave it in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "O son of my brother! I will not shift anything of it from its place."
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talibilm
01-20-2017, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by .alhamdulillah.
So you are saying that people who say Abu bakr or other companions say that they forgot parts of the Quran that were revealed during the Prophets time are lying?
Kindly Quote that hadith.

Do Not interpret I said sahabas are Lying Naudhubillah .makes to appear you are looking to create trouble here :hmm:

fitna is worse than killing ( the Noble Quran)

Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 53

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:
I said to 'Uthman bin 'Affan (while he was collecting the Qur'an) regarding the Verse:-- "Those of you who die and leave wives ..." (2.240) "This Verse was abrogated by an other Verse. So why should you write it? (Or leave it in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "O son of my brother! I will not shift anything of it from its place."


Originally Posted by .alhamdulillah.
Everything revealed to the prophet and the people of his time is still in tact 100% with no additions or subtractions?
Yes 100 % no additions No subtraction as per the words of Calipha Uthman as in the above hadith. So authenticated by the son in law of Prophet :saws: and that's why Hafsa 's copy was not burnt which was compiled 1 year after Prophets demise though the Noble Quran was in a book form even before it .
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M.I.A.
01-20-2017, 03:45 PM
i stand correct lol.

my mistake.

i dont speak arabic and read it brokenly "/
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.alhamdulillah.
01-20-2017, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by talibilm
Kindly Quote that hadith.

Do Not interpret I said sahabas are Lying Naudhubillah .makes to appear you are looking to create trouble here :hmm:

fitna is worse than killing ( the Noble Quran)

Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 53

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:
I said to 'Uthman bin 'Affan (while he was collecting the Qur'an) regarding the Verse:-- "Those of you who die and leave wives ..." (2.240) "This Verse was abrogated by an other Verse. So why should you write it? (Or leave it in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "O son of my brother! I will not shift anything of it from its place."




Yes 100 % no additions No substraction as per the words of Calipha Uthman. RA authenticated by the son in law of Prophet :saws:
I am not saying you said they are lying, I have heard others and here is the hadith...

Sahih Muslim 2286—Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it…
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.alhamdulillah.
01-20-2017, 04:04 PM
@talibilm , now that I think about it is it possible that the above hadith that I posted is just saying that those people used to recite a surah and they just forgot it or are they saying that they used to recite a surah that it is no longer in the Quran
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noraina
01-20-2017, 04:10 PM
Wa alaykum assalam,

I think you're concerned with the process of the compiling the Qur'an after the death of the Prophet :saws:?

It's important to keep in mind that there were scribes who would write down the verses as they were revealed, and many of the Companions, including the Prophet's :saws: wife Hafsah (ra) were haafiz of the Qur'an. There were many people to proof-read the mushaf - so if one person forgot any verses, other Companions could be asked.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. 15:9

See if this addresses your concerns:

http://www.minhajsisters.com/english...he-Holy-Quran/

And, of course, when it comes to English translations, they in reality can only give us an idea of the *meaning* of the verses of the Qur'an, they are by no means literal translations. Arabic is an extremely rich language and each word can have many levels of meaning, and the vocabulary of English in this area is quite limited and can't quite justify the original text in Arabic. That's why translations in other languages differ in wording and sometimes implied meaning.
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talibilm
01-20-2017, 04:11 PM
About Difference of opinion between Abdullah Ibn Masood RA ( was among best reciter or Qari as per hadith , Reciter or Qari and hafiz or memorizer is not the same ) matters are exaggerated by the non well wishers of Islam . read this thread what was the difference of opinion between him & others Only because he did not hear a hadith regarding it though the verse was clear about it which only proves the Noble Quran was VVVVVVERY strictly verified & reaffirmed

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ption+of+sikhs post 42
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talibilm
01-20-2017, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by .alhamdulillah.
@talibilm, now that I think about it is it possible that the above hadith that I posted is just saying that those people used to recite a surah and they just forgot it or are they saying that they used to recite a surah that it is no longer in the Quran
why do you need reciter of Basra ?? as per your above hadith . Those were incidents that made the need of the first reaffirmation (not compilation) of the Noble Quran by Caliph Uthman to stop the fitna makers to create problems in the future which came by Allah mercy & wisdom to the Ameerul Muhminineen which is Godly and Prophet :saws: authorized us to follow those rightly guided Caliphas .

Let me paste the link # 42 here
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ption+of+sikhs


''

  • So Quran was not authored by Prophet (pbuh) but ONLY by Allah the creator of the worlds . It was written then and then when the revelation descended thru Arch angel Gibreel to Prophet and was written by the companions of Prophet and was completed in about 23 years but was complied as a Single book after 1 year after Prophet's Demise by Caliph Abu bakr under Zaid Ibn Thabit and than latter reaffirmed and fixed in a Single Quraishi Dialect by Caliph Uthman in about 20 years under the same Zaid ibn Thabit and the old copy of Abubackr was returned back to Hafsa bint Umar (NOT BURNT like other bits & pieces to avoid overlapping and different dialects that was once needed to make easy for different Arabs as Allah wants ease for his believers ) shows that Uthman's (ra) copy did not vary it with the earlier Abubackr's(ra) 1st Original copy.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...t=#post5952538

    read post # 7 ( more details of adding vowels for exact pronunciation by Non Arabs)

    Matters of so called Doubt that Islamaphobes spread about the so called variations in Quran

    Q& A

    1) Was there any Suras added or deducted to the Quran after Prophet (pbuh) 's demise ?

    Not at all. But there was a small debate during the 1st & last reaffirming of the Quran into single Quraishi Dialect (to help Non- Arab reciters) since Islam had spread to Africa untill to borders of China during Calipha Uthman(raz anhu) from only one companion Abdullah Ibn Masood (raz anhu) who thought the 1st Sura Al Fathiha and last two suras 113 &114 ( all the 3 suras containing totally just 18 verses) should be treated as a DUA or introduction and kept in the Quran separately (like a preface etc). The reason for that was these three suras were Mashur or so famous these were recited frequently by almost all people for the treatment of illness, black magic , chasing away jinns etc recited very frequently everywhere every day though He was a good reciter (beautiful) one among the four companions,as certified by Prophet . And another Dua called as Dua qunoot read everyday in witr prayer of few verses was also recited frequently so there was a difference of opinion whether to add it to the Quran as a Dua (in preface etc) . But That was not kept in Quran but was treated only as Dua to be kept separately which was unanimously decided by all companions including Abdullah Ibn Masood (ra anhu) . As per Quran & hadith matters , that are Unanimously decided by companions ( Allah is satisfied with them) are considered godly and must be abided by it..


    Another point WORTH NOTING is through the hadith Of Abdullah Ibn Masood himself which quotes (copy & paste)

    It is narrated from Ibn Mas’ud, regarding the word of Allah, ‘We have given you the seven oft-repeated verses’ He said: “[It is] Fatiha al-Kitab.” (Durr Manthur 5/94, Dar al-Fikr, Beirut)

    and the verse from Qur’an 15:87 below reaffirms it

    “We have given you the seven oft-repeated verses and the glorious Qur‘an.”

    but still he doubted whether this 7 verse chapter it is to be inside the Noble Quran or not (or kept as a preface) because he says himself in a hadith quoted thru Al -Suyuti quotes Abu Bakr al-Baqilani (d. 406 A.H.) ''...........................It was so because to him nothing was to be written in the Mushaf except what was commanded by the Prophet –peace and blessings of Allah be upon him- and he did not find them written nor heard an instruction in this regard.” (al-Ittiqan 1/271)

    Shows the Strictness, Perfectness, carefulness, Preciseness in the Final re-affirming of the Quran since there are Hadith that said something like if even a single Lie is added to the hadith and propagated saying it came from Prophet (pbuh) such a person will go to hell. That's why Imam Bukhari collected 300,000 hadith all were rejected except some 7000 plus because in the isnad or Chain of narrators from the person who heard it directly from Prophet (pbuh) untill the last narrator even if one Person's biography pointed any doubt of trustworthiness it was either Rejected or termed as weak.

    In short in the 2nd edition of Quran was to reaffirm it into only one standard edition in its Original Quraishi dialect as available now (see above link post # 7-about details of vowels being added later to facilitate non Arabs ) the difference of opinion was about rearrangement of the 3 Suras in the Quran and one verse of sura Tauba since it records were found only with one companion (but records all other verses were found with many) but was still remembered and recited by everybody as there were still 10,000's of memorizers and this edition was still same as the 1st compilation of Calipha Abu bakr(raz anhu) compiled after one year after Prophet's demise that's why it was not burnt but returned to Hafsa (ra anha)one among the Wives of Prophet (pbuh) and the daughter of Calipha Umar(ra) as it was without any rectification.

    P.s. Though there are different translations from the past 30 years but that does not matter as there is hardly any difference in its interpretation but actual TEXT of the Quran remaining the same, but still substandard to its Original Arabic form.




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M.I.A.
01-20-2017, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by .alhamdulillah.
Yea i am just confused on what is going on here. Are they saying there are differences in what is in the Quran?

Before Uthman, the Quran was different?
i was referring to the example of the yusaf ali translation in the opening post.

...well, not the translation but the commentary.

everything else seems to have been addressed.

2:106

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?
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AabiruSabeel
01-20-2017, 05:46 PM
:sl:

Please see this thread for details, :ia: it will clarify your doubt: https://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...ged-usman.html
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Good brother
01-21-2017, 05:10 AM
Assalam alaikum
Readarding Muslim 2286
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...waId&Id=317737
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talibilm
01-23-2017, 04:31 AM
:sl:

also this
  • MuslimGirl.net

    The Compilation of the Holy Qur’an ( http://muslimgirl.net/2516/compilati...the-holy-quran )


    From the Prophet’s lips to our books today

    It’s important to understand that the Qur’an literarily means ‘recitation’ from the word qira’a; it is basically what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) from Allah (SWT) , memorized by himself and his companions, and kept in an Allah (SWT) –inspired sequence since the beginning of its revelation. It is represented by a paperback or hardcover copy with beautiful calligraphy and vowels we all own. However, the deep meaning and awesomeness of the Holy Qur’an is not all covered in its paper form, but in the power of recitation passed down to us from the Prophet (SAW) . The Rightly-Guided Companions (RAA) are the ones to thank for making sure that the Qur’an, as compiled and authenticated by the Prophet (SAW) himself and the compilation of which was supervised by archangel Gabriel, is exactly as we know and recite it today.

    The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22 years, 2 months, and 2 days portion by portion, and every time it was revealed, the Prophet (SAW) memorised it himself, declared it a revelation, and then instructed his companions to memorize it; he (SAW) would recite to them, they memorised, wrote it down, and re-recited it to him (SAW) who would check and authenticate it, just to be sure it was not adulterated. And every Ramadan, the Prophet (SAW) and archangel Gabriel would reconfirm all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, and during the last Ramadan before the Prophet’s (SAW) demise, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

    Because the Qur’an was written on separate pieces of leaflets, palm branches, scraps of leather, thin flat stones, and shoulder blades, there was a need to compile it and put it in one piece. It was thence compiled from the various scribes in the time of the first Caliph, Abu Bakr as-Siddeq (RAA), by Zaid ibn Thabit and a group of other companions (RAA) in a scrupulous procedure; it was put together in the same order assigned to them by Prophet Muhammad (SAW) , and made in the shape of sheets tied by strings so that nothing of it would be lost. This was kept safe in the house of our mother, Hafsah bint al Khattab (RAA) ,daughter of Umar ibn al-Khattab (RAA), wife of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) , and mother of the believers, after the demise of the first and second caliphs.

    In the reign of the 3rd Caliph, Uthman bin Affan (RAA) , it was discovered that the copies of the Qur’an, though complete, were in different dialects, and this caused some confusion. So, Uthman bin Affan (RAA) made the historical decision to have a ‘Standard Version’ which would be followed by everyone regardless of their origin. He sent for the copy that was kept with Hafsah bint Khattab (RAA) and asked Zaid bin Thabit (RAA) along with others (Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair, Said Ibn Al-`As, and Abdul-Rahman Ibn Al-Harith Ibn Hisham) to make copies and had them sent to the major Islamic Centres at the time.

    The dotting and vowelization of the letters, that is, placing diacritical marks in the text, was done in order for Muslims of non-Arab origin to be able to recite it with correct pronunciation. This process took three stages and spanned over 100 years. In the first stage (661-680 CE), dots were put as syntactical marks by Abu Al-Aswad Al-Doualy. In the second stage, the alphabets (huruf) were marked with different dotting to differentiate them (e.g. B T TH); this was done by Nasr Ibn Asem and Hayy Ibn Yaamor (685-705 CE). The third and final stage, a complete system of diacritical marks -vowel points (fathah, kesra and dumma) were introduced by Al-Khaleel Ibn Ahmed Al Faraheedi (d. 786 CE).

    This made it possible for millions of Muslims from Iraq to Nigeria to Morocco to be able to recite and memorize the Qur’an in the same pronounciation. The syntax of the Arabic language, phonetic system and phraseology have remained intact for over fourteen hundred years.

    A true miracle from a Wise God (SWT) , sent down through a transparent messenger (SAW) for the guidance of mankind of various races, tribes, and ages, the Holy Qur’an remains untainted through time.




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