Salah

[fathima stark]

I need brief and correct method to do salah for women...pls anybody help me...

[AbdurRahman.]

assalamualikum wr wb

i think there is a difference of opinion between madhabi's and salafi's on this but the former say womens salah is different from men; just a little in order for their body postures to be more less protuding; here is a link with all details:

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa-birmingham/19580

[BarışEkinci]

Here you are, My sister! http://www.quranfocus.com/knowledge/...lah-for-women-

[shafat10]

I need brief and correct method to do salah for women...pls anybody help me...

There's no difference in the way of Salah between that of a man and women. Those scholars who made differences solely based on their own personal understanding and there is simply no Hadith to back it up.
Rather if you look in the Hadith, the Prophet clearly said "Pray as you see me pray". And he never made a difference between a man's Salah and a woman's Salah. Hence there is no difference in the way a man and woman should pray.
For more details on how to pray, you can check this book of Sheikh Nasiruddin Albani: "The Prophet's Prayer".
This book has all the Sahih Hadith compiled and explained about each part of Salah, and the method is same for Men and Women. Hope this helps.

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[azc]

Here you are, My sister! http://www.quranfocus.com/knowledge/...lah-for-women-

ما يفارق المرأة فيه الرجل من أحكأم الصلاة راجع إلى الستر


Translation: The “distinction” in ruling regarding prayer of men and women is that the woman prays in a way which is more “CONCEALING" for her [Al-Bayhaqi in As-Sunnan al Kubra (2/222)]

[AbdurRahman.]

There's no difference in the way of Salah between that of a man and women. Those scholars who made differences solely based on their own personal understanding and there is simply no Hadith to back it up.
Rather if you look in the Hadith, the Prophet clearly said "Pray as you see me pray". And he never made a difference between a man's Salah and a woman's Salah. Hence there is no difference in the way a man and woman should pray.
For more details on how to pray, you can check this book of Sheikh Nasiruddin Albani: "The Prophet's Prayer".
This book has all the Sahih Hadith compiled and explained about each part of Salah, and the method is same for Men and Women. Hope this helps.

:sl:

you say there is no hadith to back up those 'opinions' please see link; plenty of hadith there!

https://www.central-mosque.com/index...and-women.html

[azc]

There's no difference in the way of Salah between that of a man and women. Those scholars who made differences solely based on their own personal understanding and there is simply no Hadith to back it up.
Rather if you look in the Hadith, the Prophet clearly said "Pray as you see me pray". And he never made a difference between a man's Salah and a woman's Salah. Hence there is no difference in the way a man and woman should pray.
For more details on how to pray, you can check this book of Sheikh Nasiruddin Albani: "The Prophet's Prayer".
This book has all the Sahih Hadith compiled and explained about each part of Salah, and the method is same for Men and Women. Hope this helps.

Why you didn't quote full hadith.?

See it.

18)Chapter: If there are many travellers, Adhan and Iqama should be pronounced, (the same is to be observed) in 'Arafat and Al-Muzdalifa too(18)باب الأَذَانِ لِلْمُسَافِرِ إِذَا كَانُوا جَمَاعَةً، وَالإِقَامَةِ، وَكَذَلِكَ بِعَرَفَةَ وَجَمْعٍ
وَقَوْلِ الْمُؤَذِّنِ الصَّلاَةُ فِي الرِّحَالِ‏.‏ فِي اللَّيْلَةِ الْبَارِدَةِ أَوِ الْمَطِيرَةِ
Narrated Malik:
We came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and stayed with him for twenty days and nights. We were all young and of about the same age. The Prophet (ﷺ) was very kind and merciful. When he realized our longing for our families, he asked about our homes and the people there and we told him. Then he asked us to go back to our families and stay with them and teach them (the religion) and to order them to do good things. He also mentioned some other things which I have (remembered or [??] ) forgotten. The Prophet (ﷺ) then added, "Pray as you have seen me praying and when it is the time for the prayer one of you should pronounce the Adhan and the oldest of you should lead the prayer.
حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَيُّوبُ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا مَالِكٌ، أَتَيْنَا إِلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَنَحْنُ شَبَبَةٌ مُتَقَارِبُونَ، فَأَقَمْنَا عِنْدَهُ عِشْرِينَ يَوْمًا وَلَيْلَةً، وَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم رَحِيمًا رَفِيقًا، فَلَمَّا ظَنَّ أَنَّا قَدِ اشْتَهَيْنَا أَهْلَنَا أَوْ قَدِ اشْتَقْنَا سَأَلَنَا عَمَّنْ تَرَكْنَا بَعْدَنَا فَأَخْبَرْنَاهُ قَالَ ‏ "‏ ارْجِعُوا إِلَى أَهْلِيكُمْ فَأَقِيمُوا فِيهِمْ وَعَلِّمُوهُمْ وَمُرُوهُمْ ـ وَذَكَرَ أَشْيَاءَ أَحْفَظُهَا أَوْ لاَ أَحْفَظُهَا ـ وَصَلُّوا كَمَا رَأَيْتُمُونِي أُصَلِّي، فَإِذَا حَضَرَتِ الصَّلاَةُ فَلْيُؤَذِّنْ لَكُمْ أَحَدُكُمْ وَلْيَؤُمَّكُمْ أَكْبَرُكُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 631
In-book reference : Book 10, Hadith 28
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 11, Hadith 604

When you've quoted this hadith then why you don't apply all the instructions of the hadith on woman?

e.g.

Why women are stopped from calling adhan and leading the salah.?


Apply this hadith equally on both genders. Otherwise no point in referring this hadith.


Reality is that this hadith is addressed to men. The group which stayed for twenty days in madina had no female member. RasulAllah Allah s.a.w. specifically instructed to them to pray as they saw Him pray.

[shafat10]

I don't think there's any reason to twist the Hadith by saying it is for a specific time and so on. There is certainly differences in the way they pray because one is male and one is female. The dress the wear, the way the Jamah is to be done is different and that's mentioned in the Hadith and that's what you are talking about. Am not saying about these, there is no apparent difference in the way prayed, that's what I said. No posture changes and so on as some scholars said. There's no Hadith to back those up, there's no authentic Hadith and neither any female Sahabiat mentioned any such thing ever. These all differences were added later on after doing researches. If you want to follow researches, good for you. Am interested in researches when there's no Hadith on that matter, but if there is Hadith, then I don't go for researches. Hope this helps.

[azc]

I don't think there's any reason to twist the Hadith by saying it is for a specific time and so on. There is certainly differences in the way they pray because one is male and one is female. The dress the wear, the way the Jamah is to be done is different and that's mentioned in the Hadith and that's what you are talking about. Am not saying about these, there is no apparent difference in the way prayed, that's what I said. No posture changes and so on as some scholars said. There's no Hadith to back those up, there's no authentic Hadith and neither any female Sahabiat mentioned any such thing ever. These all differences were added later on after doing researches. If you want to follow researches, good for you. Am interested in researches when there's no Hadith on that matter, but if there is Hadith, then I don't go for researches. Hope this helps.

Don't you see all the posters disagree with you.

What I wrote you couldn't address it properly.

See post #6.

Problem is that you leave the established opinion of classical scholars and imams, and follow modern age scholars.

[noraina]

Wa alaykum assalam,

While the overall way to read salah for men and women is the same, there are slight differences relating to modesty. Within Islam, men and women are equal in all matter of religion except for when there is specific daleel or evidence saying otherwise,

Obviously, women do not read the adhaan or iqamah, and they were the full hijab. And, also, in all of the various postures, such as ruku or sujood, she should keep herself more 'concealed' and her limbs close to her body, and not spread out, as this is more modest and covering. It makes sense and is far from unreasonable, and to be honest there is a general consensus on this point.

[azc]

Women do not have to give adhaan or iqaamah, because adhaan requires raising the voice, which women are not permitted to do. Ibn Qudaamah, may Allaah have mercy on him, said: "We know of no difference between the scholars (on this point)." (Al-Mughni ma’a al-Sharh al-Kabeer, 1/438).

All of the woman’s body is ‘awrah and must be covered during prayer, except for her face, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "No prayer will be accepted from an adult woman unless she wears a khimaar (head-cover). (Reported by the five Muhadditheen) There is some dispute as to whether her heels and feet should be covered.

The author of al-Mughni (2/328) said: "As for the rest of the free woman’s body, it must be covered during prayer. If any part becomes uncovered, it renders her prayer invalid, except if only a little bit is uncovered. Maalik, al-Oozaa’i and al-Shaafi’i said the same.
The woman should keep her limbs close to her body during rukoo’ and sujood, and not spread them out, because this is more modest and covering. (Al-Mughni 2/258).

Al-Nawawi said: "Al-Shaafi’i said, in al-Mukhtasar: there is no difference between men and women in prayer, except that women should keep the parts of their bodies close to one another, and they should make their stomachs touch their thighs during sujood. This is more covering and preferable, in rukoo’ and the rest of the prayer too." (See al-Majmoo’ 3/429).

It is preferable for women to pray in congregation, led by one of their number, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told Umm Waraqah to lead the women of her household in prayer. There is some difference among scholars on this matter. (See al-Mughni, 2/202 and al-Majmoo’ al-Nawawi, 4/84-85).

The woman leading the prayer should read aloud as long as no non-mahram man can hear her.
It is permissible for women to go out and pray in the mosque with men, although their prayer at home is better for them, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Do not prevent the women from going out to the mosques, even though their homes are better for them."

[shafat10]

As far as body postures are concerned, there is actually no Hadith to back that up. Some scholars said that when you do Sujood, female should touch the ground and stay close to it. That's not correct, am sorry.
Anas (Radia-Allaahu ‘anhu) narrated, describing the way the Prophet -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) used to offer the Salat: “He (the Prophet (Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam)) would not rest his forearms on the ground.” [al-Bukhari and Abu Dawoud] In another narration: “He -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) would raise them above the ground, and keep them away from his sides such that the whiteness of his armpits could be seen from behind.” [al-Bukhari and Muslim] And also: “Such that if a small lamb or kid wanted to pass under his arms, it would have been able to do so.” [Muslim].
The Prophet -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) would do this to such an extent that one of his Companions (Radia-Allaahu ‘anhum) said: “We used to feel sorry for the Messenger of Allah -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) because of the way he kept his hands away from his sides.” [Abu Dawoud, Abu ‘Awaanah and Ibn Hibban].
He -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) used to order likewise, saying: “When you perform Sajdah, place your palms (on the ground) and raise your elbows.” [Muslim] And: “Be level in Sujood, and none of you should spread his forearms like the spreading of a dog.” (in one narration: “… like a dog spreads them.”) [al-Bukhari and Muslim] In a separate Hadith: “None of you should rest his arms on the ground the way a dog rests them.” [Ahmad and at-Tirmidhi]

So this is not my words, it's the Prophet's Hadith.
You need to understand one thing, that if a Sahih Hadith is found on one topic, then there's no requirement of further Ijtihad on that. The Hadith is enough. If you have no Hadith, then you do Ijtihad and fine out the probable answer. So yah, the Prophet PBUH said not to go in to Sujood in that manner, so why will I go? I am bound to follow the Prophet.

It's as simple as that.

And ya, it doesn't matter who agrees with me and who doesn't. It's not my words, it the Sahih Hadith. So if someone is not interested in Hadith of the Prophet, then that's solely their personal problem, not mine.

[azc]

As far as body postures are concerned, there is actually no Hadith to back that up. Some scholars said that when you do Sujood, female should touch the ground and stay close to it. That's not correct, am sorry.
Anas (Radia-Allaahu ‘anhu) narrated, describing the way the Prophet -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) used to offer the Salat: “He (the Prophet (Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam)) would not rest his forearms on the ground.” [al-Bukhari and Abu Dawoud] In another narration: “He -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) would raise them above the ground, and keep them away from his sides such that the whiteness of his armpits could be seen from behind.” [al-Bukhari and Muslim] And also: “Such that if a small lamb or kid wanted to pass under his arms, it would have been able to do so.” [Muslim].
The Prophet -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) would do this to such an extent that one of his Companions (Radia-Allaahu ‘anhum) said: “We used to feel sorry for the Messenger of Allah -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) because of the way he kept his hands away from his sides.” [Abu Dawoud, Abu ‘Awaanah and Ibn Hibban].
He -(Salla-Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) used to order likewise, saying: “When you perform Sajdah, place your palms (on the ground) and raise your elbows.” [Muslim] And: “Be level in Sujood, and none of you should spread his forearms like the spreading of a dog.” (in one narration: “… like a dog spreads them.”) [al-Bukhari and Muslim] In a separate Hadith: “None of you should rest his arms on the ground the way a dog rests them.” [Ahmad and at-Tirmidhi]

So this is not my words, it's the Prophet's Hadith.
You need to understand one thing, that if a Sahih Hadith is found on one topic, then there's no requirement of further Ijtihad on that. The Hadith is enough. If you have no Hadith, then you do Ijtihad and fine out the probable answer. So yah, the Prophet PBUH said not to go in to Sujood in that manner, so why will I go? I am bound to follow the Prophet.

It's as simple as that.

And ya, it doesn't matter who agrees with me and who doesn't. It's not my words, it the Sahih Hadith. So if someone is not interested in Hadith of the Prophet, then that's solely their personal problem, not mine.

It should be known to you that classical imams and scholars were aware of such ahadith.

You see the issue superficially.

Anyways, keep adhering to your modern age scholars.

[ZeeshanParvez]

:sl:

you say there is no hadith to back up those 'opinions' please see link; plenty of hadith there!

https://www.central-mosque.com/index...and-women.html

That websites seems very unreliable. Does a scholar or a layman run it?

Let's look at one hadith he has posted which actually deals with the issue of prayer and is not a general hadith he is trying to use:

Rasulullah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) has clearly differentiated between the sitting posture of men and women in salat.

عن عبد الله بن عمر قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إذا جلست المرأة في الصلوة وضعت فخذها على فخذها الاخرى وإذا سجدت الصقت بطنها في فخذيها كالستر ما يكون لها وان الله تعالى ينظر إليها ويقول يا ملائكتى اشهدكم انى قد غفرت لها

Abdullah Bin Umar (radiyallaahu anhu) reports that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: "When a women sits in salaat, she should place the thighs of one leg upon the thighs of the other and when she makes sajda, she should attach her belly to her thigh so that it is as concealing as possible, for indeed Allah Ta'ala looks at her saying: 'O my angels, I make you witness that I have indeed forgiven her". (Al-Baihaqi, vol 2, pg 223, Idara Al-Taleefaat)


Let me put forth what scholars have said about that hadith.

al-BayhaQi said:

ضعيف لا يحتج بمثله

Weak, evidence is not established with the likes of it.

The very Imaam who recorded the narration is calling it weak.

I wonder why the author of the website omitted that fact.

al-BayhaQi reports two narrators in it who are weak

أبو مطيع

and

عطاء بن عجلان


He says they are weak.

Perhaps the author of the website should learn first and then make Wordpress blogs. May Allaah guide him.

[ZeeshanParvez]

It should be known to you that classical imams and scholars were aware of such ahadith.

You see the issue superficially.

Anyways, keep adhering to your modern age scholars.

You seem to get frustrated when someone challenges you. That was not nice. That sounded like a mock. May Allaah guide you.

[ZeeshanParvez]

:sl:

you say there is no hadith to back up those 'opinions' please see link; plenty of hadith there!

https://www.central-mosque.com/index...and-women.html

Finally, the author tries to respond to objections of the ahl al-Hadith but does a very poor job.

Response:

1 The issue of woman's salat is purely a fiqhi issue and has to be dealt with in the light of what the Fuqaha state. They were masters in understanding the meanings of the Ahadith as stated by the great Muhadith and student of Imam Bukhari, Imam Tirmizhi (rahimahullah) . The Fuqaha of all four mazhahib accept "Mursal" ahadith, but obviously with certain conditions (Athar Al-Hadith al-Shareef). Therefore, it will totally incorrect to blatantly state that "This hadeeth is mursal, which is a category of da'eef (weak)" indirectly inferring that this Hadith cannot be accepted.
We do not wish to go into the discussion of "Mursal" ahadith, since this is not the purpose of this article. However, all the narrators of the above Hadith are reliable and there is no reason to reject it as stated in I'laau Al-Sunan (vol 3, pg 26, Idara Al-Quran)

It is understandable why a layman would not like to get into the discussion of a Mursal hadith. Even a layman knows that the scholars of hadith consider a mursal hadith weak. And to say what he says that the rijaal of the hadith are all good while avoiding the fact it is mursal shows he is ignorant.

He should simply admit that yes there are differences between the prayer of the two but the hadith used for it are weak. Simple. Honest. Straight to the point.

[azc]

You seem to get frustrated when someone challenges you. That was not nice. That sounded like a mock. May Allaah guide you.

Neither it's the matter of challenge nor of frustration. It's matter of blind following of modern age scholars.

[azc]

That websites seems very unreliable. Does a scholar or a layman run it?

Let's look at one hadith he has posted which actually deals with the issue of prayer and is not a general hadith he is trying to use:

Rasulullah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) has clearly differentiated between the sitting posture of men and women in salat.

عن عبد الله بن عمر قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إذا جلست المرأة في الصلوة وضعت فخذها على فخذها الاخرى وإذا سجدت الصقت بطنها في فخذيها كالستر ما يكون لها وان الله تعالى ينظر إليها ويقول يا ملائكتى اشهدكم انى قد غفرت لها

Abdullah Bin Umar (radiyallaahu anhu) reports that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: "When a women sits in salaat, she should place the thighs of one leg upon the thighs of the other and when she makes sajda, she should attach her belly to her thigh so that it is as concealing as possible, for indeed Allah Ta'ala looks at her saying: 'O my angels, I make you witness that I have indeed forgiven her". (Al-Baihaqi, vol 2, pg 223, Idara Al-Taleefaat)


Let me put forth what scholars have said about that hadith.

al-BayhaQi said:

ضعيف لا يحتج بمثله

Weak, evidence is not established with the likes of it.

The very Imaam who recorded the narration is calling it weak.

I wonder why the author of the website omitted that fact.

al-BayhaQi reports two narrators in it who are weak

أبو مطيع

and

عطاء بن عجلان


He says they are weak.

Perhaps the author of the website should learn first and then make Wordpress blogs. May Allaah guide him.

Do you know what the 4 imams say about this topic which you're discussing now?

How many classical scholars said that the're is no difference between men and women's salah?

[ZeeshanParvez]

Do you know what the 4 imams say about this topic which you're discussing now?

How many classical scholars said that the're is no difference between men and women's salah?

You forgot to read the last sentence of my post after that : )

[azc]

You forgot to read the last sentence of my post after that : )

And you deliberately forgot to accept the fact.

If you're honest then download it and read

http://www.darultahqiq.com/differenc...-to-evidences/

[ZeeshanParvez]

And you deliberately forgot to accept the fact.

If you're honest then download it and read

http://www.darultahqiq.com/differenc...-to-evidences/

I don't read in English or Urdu. If you have an Arabic book you can recommend go ahead.

I didn't forget to accept the fact. I just pointed out its based on weak narrations which you cannot deny.

You can argue some classical scholars acted on weak hadith for caution.

But you cannot argue the hadith are not weak becasue even the ones who recorded them said they were, like al-BayhaQi.

[ZeeshanParvez]

And you deliberately forgot to accept the fact.

If you're honest then download it and read

http://www.darultahqiq.com/differenc...-to-evidences/

Here you should read what IslamQA says and how it quotes the Madhabs. You are okay with them quoting the Madhabs.

https://islamqa.info/en/1106

[azc]

I don't read in English or Urdu. If you have an Arabic book you can recommend go ahead.

I didn't forget to accept the fact. I just pointed out its based on weak narrations which you cannot deny.

You can argue some classical scholars acted on weak hadith for caution.

But you cannot argue the hadith are not weak becasue even the ones who recorded them said they were, like al-BayhaQi.

It's a small booklet in English delineated the position of 4 madhab regarding this topic.
If you dislike English books then why you are here?

If any hadith declared weak by muhaddidsin it doesn't mean to be outright rejected. In this case you're partially hadith rejectors.

Moreover, if a hadith is weak in eyes of muhaddidsin its very much possible that the same hadith to fuqha imams is as sahih hadith.

It's unfair of you to accept the sayings of muhaddidsin and rejecting the fuqha' s opinion based on same hadith

Is it not taqllid of muhaddidsin?

[azc]

Here you should read what IslamQA says and how it quotes the Madhabs. You are okay with them quoting the Madhabs.

https://islamqa.info/en/1106

O.k. move on what you want to say?

[ZeeshanParvez]

It's a small booklet in English delineated the position of 4 madhab regarding this topic.
If you dislike English books then why you are here?

If any hadith declared weak by muhaddidsin it doesn't mean to be outright rejected. In this case you're partially hadith rejectors.

Moreover, if a hadith is weak in eyes of muhaddidsin its very much possible that the same hadith to fuqha imams is as sahih hadith.

It's unfair of you to accept the sayings of muhaddidsin and rejecting the fuqha' s opinion based on same hadith

Is it not taqllid of muhaddidsin?

There is a principle in Diin. You take knowledge regarding a subject from those who are experts in the subject.

You take knowledge of hadith authenticity from the scholars of hadith and not the Jurists.

You take knowledge of Fiqh from the Jurists and not the scholars of hadiith.

You can take both Fiqh and knowledge of hadith from a person who is a master in both.

Did you not know this?

This is why in one of the Fiqh matters al-Shaafi'i said in his book al-Umm regarding a hadith that if this hadith comes to be known to be authentic then my verdict regarding the matter will stand otherwise not. He admitted his lack of knowledge about a hadith on the subject and said that if it is authentic then what I say on the matter is valid.

It is best to first study and then formulate opinions.

[Zafran]

There is a principle in Diin. You take knowledge regarding a subject from those who are experts in the subject.

is this in the Quran or the hadiths :) - stick to the mujthaids.

[ZeeshanParvez]

is this in the Quran or the hadiths :) - stick to the mujthaids.

Did you know Ibn Taymiyyah said that Imaam al-Bukhaari was an independent Mujtahid. He was also a giant in Hadith knowledge. : )

[Zafran]

Did you know Ibn Taymiyyah said that Imaam al-Bukhaari was an independent Mujtahid. He was also a giant in Hadith knowledge. : )

Did you know alot of people criticized Ibn Taymiyya because of some of his views :). Last time I checked Ibn Taymiyya (ra) was a Hanbali.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Did you know alot of people criticized Ibn Taymiyya because of some of his views :). Last time I checked Ibn Taymiyya (ra) was a Hanbali and Bukhari (ra) was a shafi.

You need to check again.

A lot of the Salaf criticized Abu Hanifah. Your point?

[Zafran]

You need to check again.

A lot of the Salaf criticized Abu Hanifah. Your point?

Lets end it here are you a Mujtahid? If not then Taqlid of one of the main schools of the Mujthaids is the way:). Clearly me and you are no Abu Hanifa or Imam Bukhari or malik or shafi or al gahzzali or shah dhelvi etc etc. Unless you are a mujthaid.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Lets end it here are you a Mujtahid? If not then Taqlid of one of the main schools of the Mujthaids is the way:). Clearly me and you are no Abu Hanifa or Imam Bukhari or malik or shafi or al gahzzali or shah dhelvi etc etc.

Now you are avoiding the topic.

You said al-Bukhaari was a Shaafi'i. I told you he was not. Now you are on to a tangent to avoid the subject.

Let me help you out as you need lots of it

هذا ولا ينكر أن بعض الأئمة المتقدمين نسبوا البخاري إلى مذاهبهم ، فذكره القاضي ابن أبي يعلى الفراء في " طبقات الحنابلة " (1/271)، والسبكي في " طبقات الشافعية " (2/3)

There is no doubt that some of the earlier Imaams tried to ascribe Imaam al-Bukhaari to their Madahb.

Al-Qaadi Ibn Abu Ya'laa mentioned him in TabaQaat al-Hanaabilah while al-Subki mentioned him in TabaaQaat al-Shaafi'iyah.

Did you know this or did you just read an article by Nuh Ha Miim Keller who propagated the false view that al-Bukhaari was a Shaafi'i?

So which was he a Hanbali or Shaafi'i : )

[Zafran]

Now you are avoiding the topic.

You said al-Bukhaari was a Shaafi'i. I told you he was not. Now you are on to a tangent to avoid the subject.

Let me help you out as you need lots of it

هذا ولا ينكر أن بعض الأئمة المتقدمين نسبوا البخاري إلى مذاهبهم ، فذكره القاضي ابن أبي يعلى الفراء في " طبقات الحنابلة " (1/271)، والسبكي في " طبقات الشافعية " (2/3)

There is no doubt that some of the earlier Imaams tried to ascribe Imaam al-Bukhaari to their Madahb.

Al-Qaadi Ibn Abu Ya'laah mentioned him in TabaQaat al-Hanaabilah while al-Subki mentioned him in TabaaQaat al-Shaafiyah.

Did you know this or did you just read an article by Nuh Ha Miim Keller who propagated the false view that al-Bukhaari was a Shaafi'i?

Lets say your right although there is clearly a difference of opinion because Ibn Subki had the opinion that he was shafi. However lets accept your conclusion. Are a mujthaid like Bukhari? if not you have to do taqleed of a mujtahid as they are the people that can do ijthaid.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Lets say your right although there is clearly a difference of opinion because Ibn Subki had the opinion that he was shafi. However lets accept your conclusion. Are a mujthaid like Bukhari? if not you have to do taqleed of a mujtahid as they are the people that can do ijthaid.

You do not seem to read the threads do you?

We aren't discussing who is a Mujtahid or who is not.

The discussion started about differences in prayer between men and women. He asked me if I did not know the opinions of the classical scholars and I told him I did and they derived rulings from hadith even they new were weak.

Why are you so obsessed with Mujtahid Imaams and who is one and who is not. You seem to talk about the same thing in both threads though the issue being discussed is totally something else?

[Zafran]

You do not seem to read the threads do you?

We aren't discussing who is a Mujtahid or who is not.

The discussion started about differences in prayer between men and women. He asked me if I did not know the opinions of the classical scholars and I told him I did and they derived rulings from hadith even they new were weak.

Why are you so obsessed with Mujtahid Imaams and who is one and who is not. You seem to talk about the same thing in both threads though the issue being discussed is totally something else?

Because your doing what a mujtahaid is meant to do - you trying to be a hadith scholar by telling him that his hadiths are weak - your no Bukhari or Ibn Tayimayya or Abu hanifa? so why not tell him to ask his scholars or mujtahaids when your not one as your doing taqleed just like anyone else.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Because your doing what a mujtahaid is meant to do - you trying to be a hadith scholar by telling him that his hadiths are weak - your no Bukhari or Ibn Tayimayya or Abu hanifa? so why not tell him to ask his scholars or mujtahaids when your not one as your doing taqleed just like anyone else.

I will once again have to remind you that you do not read the threads. Let me show you why:

You say

you trying to be hadith scholar by telling him that this hadiths is weak

My friend it is always good to read carefully. Read twice or even three times. Otherwise, you will fall in the sin of slander and then will have to pay for it in front of the King of kings.

I quote al-BayhaQi who said it was weak. I quote classical scholars who say a hadith is weak. I have all right to do that. I do not need to be a Mujtahid Imaam to do that.

So, first you will have to read carefully. Once you have done that then I would like to remind you what the definition of taqliid is as al-Subki points out

فعرفه ابن السبكي في جمع الجوامع بأنه: أخذ القول من غير معرفة دليله


It is taking what someone ways without recognizing his evidence.

As you can see if you follow an opinion based on the evidence provided by the Madhab you are not a Muqallid.

You may be incapable of understanding evidences but not everyone is you.

[Zafran]

I will once again have to remind you that you do not read the threads. Let me show you why:

You say



My friend it is always good to read carefully. Read twice or even three times. Otherwise, you will fall in the sin of slander and then will have to pay for it in front of the King of kings.

I quote al-BayhaQi who said it was weak. I quote classical scholars who say a hadith is weak. I have all right to do that. I do not need to be a Mujtahid Imaam to do that.

So, first you will have to read carefully. Once you have done that then I would like to remind you what the definition of taqliid is as al-Subki points out

فعرفه ابن السبكي في جمع الجوامع بأنه: أخذ القول من غير معرفة دليله


It is taking what someone ways without recognizing his evidence.

As you can see if you follow an opinion based on the evidence provided by the Madhab you are not a Muqallid.

You just did taqleed of Imam Baqhi and Al Subki dude - your no Mujtaid leave it to the scholars - very simple.

[ZeeshanParvez]

You just did taqleed of Imam Baqhi and Al Subki dude - your no Mujtaid leave it to the scholars - very simple.

That is not Taqliid. That is a definition coined by the Jurists.

You are now playing with the lexical meaning of the word. It is like those who argue Jihaad means to strive as it does lexically but not according to the legislative meaning.

The truth is that you have found yourself in a predicament and would like me to stop because your ego is preventing you from accepting you did not know what the thread was about but you jumped thinking in you know all.

[Zafran]

That is not Taqliid. That is a definition coined by the Jurists.

You are now playing with the lexical meaning of the word. It is like those who argue Jihaad means to strive as it does lexically but not according to the legislative meaning.

The truth is that you have found yourself in a predicament and would like me to stop because your ego is preventing you from accepting you did not know what the thread was about but you jumped thinking in you know all.

dude your not a mujtahid - therefore you are a muqalid - like me.

[ZeeshanParvez]

dude your not a mujtahid - therefore you are a muqalid - like me.

I am nothing like you.

I understand the evidences of the different Madhabs so by definition of Taqliid I am not making Taqliid.

I can see you are feeling hurt now and getting angry so I will stop because I do not wish there be any ill feelings between us.

But if you would like to continue an academic discussion I can continue. But you will have to provide evidence and understand it. Can you do that?

[azc]

There is a principle in Diin. You take knowledge regarding a subject from those who are experts in the subject.

You take knowledge of hadith authenticity from the scholars of hadith and not the Jurists.

You take knowledge of Fiqh from the Jurists and not the scholars of hadiith.

You can take both Fiqh and knowledge of hadith from a person who is a master in both.

Did you not know this?

This is why in one of the Fiqh matters al-Shaafi'i said in his book al-Umm regarding a hadith that if this hadith comes to be known to be authentic then my verdict regarding the matter will stand otherwise not. He admitted his lack of knowledge about a hadith on the subject and said that if it is authentic then what I say on the matter is valid.

It is best to first study and then formulate opinions.

Fuqhas should be given preference when any disputed issue comes concerning hadith but the muqallidin of muhaddidsin create fitnah.
Every sane person understands that a faqih gave rulings based on a particular hadith/ahadith and people/scholars accepted.After a century/several decades a muhaddis is born, declared the the same hadith as weak but people kept on following fuqha. Ummah was united till last century when a few groups raised to invalidate the established rulings by resorting the pretext of research of muhaddidsin.

e.g.
4 imams agreed on some differences in salah between men and women.
and after2 centuries imam Baihiqi shafi'i declared the hadith as weak but neither scholars nor people left following fuqha concerning this matter.
centuries passed, ummah faced no dispute in this matter.

but some scholars of this modern age searched the opinion of muhaddidsin regarding the same hadith . They started fitnah by spreading the wrong msg "there is no difference in salah between men and women"

[Zafran]

I am nothing like you.

I understand the evidences of the different Madhabs so by definition of Taqliid I am not making Taqliid.

I can see you are feeling hurt now and getting angry so I will stop because I do not wish there be any ill feelings between us.

But if you would like to continue an academic discussion I can continue. But you will have to provide evidence and understand it. Can you do that?

Muqalids that is what we both are.

[Zafran]

Fuqhas should be given preference when any disputed issue comes concerning hadith but the muqallidin of muhaddidsin create fitnah.
Every sane person understands that a faqih gave rulings based on a particular hadith/ahadith and people/scholars accepted.After a century/several decades a muhaddis is born, declared the the same hadith as weak but people kept on following fuqha. Ummah was united till last century when a few groups raised to invalidate the established rulings by resorting the pretext of research of muhaddidsin.

e.g.
4 imams agreed on some differences in salah between men and women.
and after2 centuries imam Baihiqi shafi'i declared the hadith as weak but neither scholars nor people left following fuqha concerning this matter.
centuries passed, ummah faced no dispute in this matter.

but some scholars of this modern age searched the opinion of muhaddidsin regarding the same hadith . They started fitnah by spreading the wrong msg "there is no difference in salah between men and women"

Brother I have been trying to convince him for the past posts that we are both Muqalids but He doeasnt seem to want to listen.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Fuqhas should be given preference when any disputed issue comes concerning hadith but the muqallidin of muhaddidsin create fitnah.

Oh dear. You are a Madhabi fanatic. I am so sorry to have indulged in a discussion with you.

If I am not mistaken are you azafar from Ummah the man who insulted Imaam al-Bukhaari by calling me an ordinary Aalim because he labelled Abu Hanifah weak in hadith?

Btw I showed you evidence in this thread that Imaam Ahmed said that everyone needs Qiyaas.

Guess you learned something you were ignorant of as you thought the Imaams did not make Qiyaas. : )

[azc]

Lets say your right although there is clearly a difference of opinion because Ibn Subki had the opinion that he was shafi. However lets accept your conclusion. Are a mujthaid like Bukhari? if not you have to do taqleed of a mujtahid as they are the people that can do ijthaid.

Imam bukhari, indeed, mujtahid in hadith but Q is why he was considered as the follower of imam shafi'I in fiqh?
Reason everyone layman or scholar respected shariah a lot. They couldn't imagine to keep themselves away from adherence to 4 madhab.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Imam bukhari, indeed, mujtahid in hadith but Q is why he was considered as the follower of imam shafi'I in fiqh?
Reason everyone layman or scholar respected shariah a lot. They couldn't imagine to keep themselves away from adherence to 4 madhab.

Actually أبو مصعب أحمد بن أبي بكر المديني said that Imaam al-Bukhaari was more learned than Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal and was at par in Fiqh with Maalik.

محمد بن إسماعيل أفقه عندنا وأبصر من ابن حنبل ، فلما اعترض عليه بعض جلسائه قائلا : جاوزت الحد ، قال أبو مصعب : لو أدركت مالكا ونظرت إلى وجهه ووجه محمد بن إسماعيل لقلت : كلاهما واحد في الفقه والحديث

You can find the quote in Taarikh Baghdaad.

[azc]

Brother I have been trying to convince him for the past posts that we are both Muqalids but He doeasnt seem to want to listen.

You can't convince a stubborn.

[Zafran]

You can't convince a stubborn.

Salaam

Leave the argumentation about Fiqh its useless - stick the bigger matters. May God bless you

peace

[azc]

Oh dear. You are a Madhabi fanatic. I am so sorry to have indulged in a discussion with you.

If I am not mistaken are you azafar from Ummah the man who insulted Imaam al-Bukhaari by calling me an ordinary Aalim because he labelled Abu Hanifah weak in hadith?

Btw I showed you evidence in this thread that Imaam Ahmed said that everyone needs Qiyaas.

Guess you learned something you were ignorant of as you thought the Imaams did not make Qiyaas. : )

He is my friend.

Of qiyas : I asked you one question but you are hiding your face from answering.

Of taqllid : who doesn't do taqllid whether it's of fuqha or muhaddidsin?

[ZeeshanParvez]

He is my friend.

Of qiyas : I asked you one question but you are hiding your face from answering.

Of taqllid : who doesn't do taqllid whether it's of fuqha or muhaddidsin?

Hiding ones face has many spiritual advantages.

For starters you know you aren't showing off. There is no Riyaa.

If you give up an argument when you know you are right you might get a house in Paradise.

You do not have an ego issue. Your opponent thinks he has won and gets prideful.

People laugh at you and mock you when you hide your face and even backbite all of which gives you free good deeds.

I think I will hide my face more often from now on : )

[azc]

Actually أبو مصعب أحمد بن أبي بكر المديني said that Imaam al-Bukhaari was more learned than Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal and was at par in Fiqh with Maalik.

محمد بن إسماعيل أفقه عندنا وأبصر من ابن حنبل ، فلما اعترض عليه بعض جلسائه قائلا : جاوزت الحد ، قال أبو مصعب : لو أدركت مالكا ونظرت إلى وجهه ووجه محمد بن إسماعيل لقلت : كلاهما واحد في الفقه والحديث

You can find the quote in Taarikh Baghdaad.

I love imam bukhari. If the ilm of all the scholars of this age is accumulated can't be compared to this great, great, imam who devoted his whole life in service of Deen.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Of taqllid : who doesn't do taqllid whether it's of fuqha or muhaddidsin?

Ill leave you with what Abu Umar al-Namari al-Andalusi al-Qurtubi al-Maliki said:

Ponder over it:

Volume 2 Page 787


والتقليد عند العلماء غير الاتباع؛ لأن الاتباع هو تتبع القائل على ما بان لك من فضل قوله وصحة مذهبه، والتقليد أن تقول بقوله وأنت لا تعرف وجه القول ولا معناه وتأبى من سواه، أو أن يتبين لك خطؤه فتتبعه مهابة خلافه وأنت قد بان لك فساد قوله وهذا محرم القول به في دين الله سبحانه وتعالى

[Paraphrase] al-Taqliid in the sight of scholars is different from al-'Ittibaa' because al-'Ittibaa' means to follow the saying of someone after the correctness of his saying and Madhab have become apparent to you and taqliid is when you do not recognize the saying nor its meaning and you follow him even when it becomes apparent to you that he made a mistake...

This is Abu Umar al-Namari al-Andalusi al-Qurtubi al-Maliki who was a Maaliki Judge. He was from 400 H.

He clearly mentions a difference between Taqliid and Ittibaa'.

The difference is not something the Salafis coined.

It existed back in 400 H.

Ponder over it. Learn the difference between Taqliid and Ittibaa' if you truly aren't stubborn ; )

[azc]

Hiding ones face has many spiritual advantages.

For starters you know you aren't showing off. There is no Riyaa.

If you give up an argument when you know you are right you might get a house in Paradise.

You do not have an ego issue. Your opponent thinks he has won and gets prideful.

People laugh at you and mock you when you hide your face and even backbite all of which gives you free good deeds.

I think I will hide my face more often from now on : )

No bro, I am sorry if I've hurt you.

It's merely a discussion.

[azc]

Ill leave you with what Abu Umar al-Namari al-Andalusi al-Qurtubi al-Maliki said:Ponder over it:Volume 2 Page 787والتقليد عند العلماء غير الاتباع؛ لأن الاتباع هو تتبع القائل على ما بان لك من فضل قوله وصحة مذهبه، والتقليد أن تقول بقوله وأنت لا تعرف وجه القول ولا معناه وتأبى من سواه، أو أن يتبين لك خطؤه فتتبعه مهابة خلافه وأنت قد بان لك فساد قوله وهذا محرم القول به في دين الله سبحانه وتعالى[Paraphrase] al-Taqliid in the sight of scholars is different from al-'Ittibaa' because al-'Ittibaa' means to follow the saying of someone after the correctness of his saying and Madhab have become apparent to you and taqliid is when you do not recognize the saying nor its meaning and you follow him even when it becomes apparent to you that he made a mistake...This is Abu Umar al-Namari al-Andalusi al-Qurtubi al-Maliki who was a Maaliki Judge. He was from 400 H.He clearly mentions a difference between Taqliid and Ittibaa'.The difference is not something the Salafis coined.It existed back in 400 H.Ponder over it. Learn the difference between Taqliid and Ittibaa' if you truly aren't stubborn ; )

Its also a form of taqllid to accept this definition of taqllid without any dalil.

Taqllid : following a non prophet in terms of his sayings or doings without any dalil is taqllid

Ittiba: sometimes it's taqllid

"wal lazeena aamanoo wat taba'athum zurriyatuhum bi eemanin " al toor 21

children follow their parents without any dalil and accepts Islam.

or

"fa la tattabiul hawa" al nisa 135

here following hawa is prohibited. No Q of dalil is here.

Ittiba as ita'at:

"ittabioo ma unzila ilaykum" al araf

we are instructed to follow Quran

or

"qul in kuntum tuhibboonallaha fat tabioonee"

here we're instructed to follow the prophet s.a.w.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Its also a form of taqllid to accept this definition of taqllid without any dalil.

Taqllid : following a non prophet in terms of his sayings or doings without any dalil is taqllid

Ittiba: sometimes it's taqllid

"wal lazeena aamanoo wat taba'athum zurriyatuhum bi eemanin " al toor 21

children follow their parents without any dalil and accepts Islam.

or

"fa la tattabiul hawa" al nisa 135

here following hawa is prohibited. No Q of dalil is here.

Ittiba as ita'at:

"ittabioo ma unzila ilaykum" al araf

we are instructed to follow Quran

or

"qul in kuntum tuhibboonallaha fat tabioonee"

here we're instructed to follow the prophet s.a.w.

That makes no sense.

You confuse the lexical meaning of the word with the legislative one.

That is why you are confused. Ittibaa means to follow a position based on evidence.

You should do Ittibaa. You should learn the evidence. This is a matter of the Diin of Allaah.

Do not blindly follow. Learn the evidences of the position you follow.

[azc]

That makes no sense.

You confuse the lexical meaning of the word with the legislative one.

That is why you are confused. Ittibaa means to follow a position based on evidence.

You should do Ittibaa. You should learn the evidence. This is a matter of the Diin of Allaah.

Do not blindly follow. Learn the evidences of the position you follow.

I think I shouldn't waste my time with you.

[AbdurRahman.]

That websites seems very unreliable. Does a scholar or a layman run it?

Let's look at one hadith he has posted which actually deals with the issue of prayer and is not a general hadith he is trying to use:

Rasulullah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) has clearly differentiated between the sitting posture of men and women in salat.

عن عبد الله بن عمر قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إذا جلست المرأة في الصلوة وضعت فخذها على فخذها الاخرى وإذا سجدت الصقت بطنها في فخذيها كالستر ما يكون لها وان الله تعالى ينظر إليها ويقول يا ملائكتى اشهدكم انى قد غفرت لها

Abdullah Bin Umar (radiyallaahu anhu) reports that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: "When a women sits in salaat, she should place the thighs of one leg upon the thighs of the other and when she makes sajda, she should attach her belly to her thigh so that it is as concealing as possible, for indeed Allah Ta'ala looks at her saying: 'O my angels, I make you witness that I have indeed forgiven her". (Al-Baihaqi, vol 2, pg 223, Idara Al-Taleefaat)


Let me put forth what scholars have said about that hadith.

al-BayhaQi said:

ضعيف لا يحتج بمثله

Weak, evidence is not established with the likes of it.

The very Imaam who recorded the narration is calling it weak.

I wonder why the author of the website omitted that fact.

al-BayhaQi reports two narrators in it who are weak

أبو مطيع

and

عطاء بن عجلان


He says they are weak.

Perhaps the author of the website should learn first and then make Wordpress blogs. May Allaah guide him.

this view is not just based on that hadith br. See azc's link. It is based on several sahih and hasan hadith. Several more that are only slightly weak so they back it up.

[AbdurRahman.]

Finally, the author tries to respond to objections of the ahl al-Hadith but does a very poor job.



It is understandable why a layman would not like to get into the discussion of a Mursal hadith. Even a layman knows that the scholars of hadith consider a mursal hadith weak. And to say what he says that the rijaal of the hadith are all good while avoiding the fact it is mursal shows he is ignorant.

He should simply admit that yes there are differences between the prayer of the two but the hadith used for it are weak. Simple. Honest. Straight to the point.

It's the fuqaha that decide wether a mursal hadith can be authentic for a prerequisite of a faqih is to be a hadith expert too.

[azc]

It's the fuqaha that decide wether a mursal hadith can be authentic for a prerequisite of a faqih is to be a hadith expert too.

I think we should rest this topic now.....

[Linkdeutscher]

Did you know alot of people criticized Ibn Taymiyya because of some of his views :). Last time I checked Ibn Taymiyya (ra) was a Hanbali.

Wait - are you implying he was a muqallid of Imam Ahmad?

You need to educate yourself on the differences between taqleed of an imaam, taqleed of a madhhab named after an Imaam, and studying and adopting the usool of a maddhab to derive rulings.

At best Imam Ibn Tamiyyah fell into the last category.

[Linkdeutscher]

Did you know alot of people criticized Ibn Taymiyya because of some of his views :). Last time I checked Ibn Taymiyya (ra) was a Hanbali.

Imaam Bukhaari is not a mujtahid because Ibn Taymiyyah said so, that was just an example.

He is one because he was, unless you want to say he wasn't.

[Linkdeutscher]

Lets end it here are you a Mujtahid? If not then Taqlid of one of the main schools of the Mujthaids is the way:). Clearly me and you are no Abu Hanifa or Imam Bukhari or malik or shafi or al gahzzali or shah dhelvi etc etc. Unless you are a mujthaid.

'Are you a mujtahid?'

Mujtahids have always been the minority in the ummah, the vast majority of people have generally been laymen.

So your rhetoric also applies to the era of the best generations, i.e the salaf, as laymen who were not mujtahids also existed in extremely high numbers during their time.

Yet, the concept of exclusive taqleed of one madhhab, a.k.a taqleed shakshi was not present among them.

It only started during the fourth century.

So if your argumentation was indeed correct, then the laymen of the salaf would've surely done what you suggest, taqleed of one of the main schools. Sadly, no such thing happened, in fact those schools were formed later.

[Linkdeutscher]

It's the fuqaha that decide wether a mursal hadith can be authentic for a prerequisite of a faqih is to be a hadith expert too.

In that case Imam Abu Haneefah was not a faqeeh, as he was not a hadeeth expert.

[Linkdeutscher]

Of taqllid : who doesn't do taqllid whether it's of fuqha or muhaddidsin?

May I remind you of what At Tahaawi said when it was implied that he was a muqallid of Abu Haneefah?

[Linkdeutscher]

this view is not just based on that hadith br. See azc's link. It is based on several sahih and hasan hadith. Several more that are only slightly weak so they back it up.

Let's make this very easy - you can use any weak hadeeth to prove your position, but you still will not be able to prove the Hanafi views on a woman's salah.

Even with all those weak ahadeeth.

[azc]

Let's make this very easy - you can use any weak hadeeth to prove your position, but you still will not be able to prove the Hanafi views on a woman's salah.

Even with all those weak ahadeeth.

It's the position of 4 madhab. Only a few scholars of our time went against the consensus of ummah.

Your stand is wrong.

Give only ONE hadith which proves that there is no difference in salah between men and women.

"Pray as you see me pray" is specific for men. See the hadith.

[azc]

'Are you a mujtahid?'

Mujtahids have always been the minority in the ummah, the vast majority of people have generally been laymen.

So your rhetoric also applies to the era of the best generations, i.e the salaf, as laymen who were not mujtahids also existed in extremely high numbers during their time.

Yet, the concept of exclusive taqleed of one madhhab, a.k.a taqleed shakshi was not present among them.

It only started during the fourth century.

So if your argumentation was indeed correct, then the laymen of the salaf would've surely done what you suggest, taqleed of one of the main schools. Sadly, no such thing happened, in fact those schools were formed later.

You sound as salafi. Salafis are also involved in taqllid shakhsi in form of following a specific set of scholars I.e. salafi scholars only.

DeobandI and barelvi follow their own scholars.

Denying taqllid shakhsi proves you a follower of your own scholars.

I follow 4 imams. I don't follow this age scholars if they go on different path in contrast to 4 imams

[azc]

In that case Imam Abu Haneefah was not a faqeeh, as he was not a hadeeth expert.

You seem to be a Pakistani alhehadith.

[azc]

'Are you a mujtahid?'

Mujtahids have always been the minority in the ummah, the vast majority of people have generally been laymen.

So your rhetoric also applies to the era of the best generations, i.e the salaf, as laymen who were not mujtahids also existed in extremely high numbers during their time.

Yet, the concept of exclusive taqleed of one madhhab, a.k.a taqleed shakshi was not present among them.

It only started during the fourth century.

So if your argumentation was indeed correct, then the laymen of the salaf would've surely done what you suggest, taqleed of one of the main schools. Sadly, no such thing happened, in fact those schools were formed later.

He simply asked you "Are you a mujtahid"?

[AbdurRahman.]

In that case Imam Abu Haneefah was not a faqeeh, as he was not a hadeeth expert.

oh no i mistakenly liked your post as Imam Abu Hanifa was a hadith expert too; see the prerequisites of a mujtahid; hadith mastery and expertise is one of them:

As for the conditions of the absolute and independent ijtihad, they are mentioned in the Maraqi as-sa’ud in the following line and what follows:
“And that [word ‘faqih’2] is synonymous with the [word] ‘mujtahid’ coupled with those things which bear upon [him] the burden of responsibility,
Such as his being of extreme intelligence by nature, and there is some debate about one who is known to reject juristic analogy [qiyas]
He knows the [juristic] responsibilities through intellectual proofs unless a clear transmitted proof indicates otherwise.
[Sidi Abdullah] says [in his commentary] Nashru al-bunud,
“This means that among the conditions of ijtihad is that [the mujtahid] knows that he must adhere to the intellectual proof which is the foundational condition [al-bara’atu al-asliyya3] until a transmitted proof from a sacred law indicates otherwise.”
He then goes on to mention the other conditions of a mujtahid:
[The sciences of] grammar, prosody, philology, combined with those of usul and rhetoric he must master.
According to the people of precision, [he must know] where the judgements can be found without the condition of having memorized the actual texts.
[All of the above must be known] according to a middle ranked mastery at least. He must also know those matters upon which there is consensus.
[Moreover, he must know] things such as the condition of single hadiths and what carries the authority of great numbers of transmissions; also [knowledge of] what is sound and what is weak is necessary.
Furthermore, what has been abrogated and what abrogates, as well as the conditions under which a verse was revealed or a hadith was transmitted is a condition that must be met.
The states of the narrators and the companions [must also be known]. Therefore, you may follow anyone who fulfils these conditions mentioned above according to the soundest opinion.

http://shaykhhamza.com/transcript/Fa...owing-a-Madhab

[AbdurRahman.]

You seem to be a Pakistani alhehadith.

lol i know linkdeutcher!; he's from ummah forum but i'll keep my identity secret! :D

he is a die hard salafi!; he even has 'wahhabi' on his avatar over there!

[azc]

lol i know linkdeutcher!; he's from ummah forum but i'll keep my identity secret! :D

he is a die hard salafi!; he even has 'wahhabi' on his avatar over there!

Is he from Pakistan ..?

For Pakistani alhehadith are stereotyped of this kind.

[AbdurRahman.]

Is he from Pakistan ..?

For Pakistani alhehadith are stereotyped of this kind.

yes i can confirm that too; although he might be from India!:); he speaks urdu for sure!

but he is a good brother so lets not stereotype him!

poor misguided brothers and sisters; they're good at heart but dont know they are misguided but we'll soon make them see that! :Emoji51::Emoji47:

[azc]

yes i can confirm that too; although he might be from India!:); he speaks urdu for sure!

but he is a good brother so lets not stereotype him!

poor misguided brothers and sisters; they're good at heart but dont know they are misguided but we'll soon make them see that! :Emoji51::Emoji47:

I don't know of him as you know.

Anyways thanks bro

[ZeeshanParvez]

yes i can confirm that too; although he might be from India!:); he speaks urdu for sure!

but he is a good brother so lets not stereotype him!

poor misguided brothers and sisters; they're good at heart but dont know they are misguided but we'll soon make them see that! :Emoji51::Emoji47:

And you think you are guided? Wow. Talk about arrogance.

[ZeeshanParvez]

You sound as salafi. Salafis are also involved in taqllid shakhsi in form of following a specific set of scholars I.e. salafi scholars only.

DeobandI and barelvi follow their own scholars.

Denying taqllid shakhsi proves you a follower of your own scholars.

I follow 4 imams. I don't follow this age scholars if they go on different path in contrast to 4 imams

Learn the definition of Taqliid before trying to use it.

Taqliid means to follow an opinion without knowing the evidence.

While your books come without evidence the books of the ahl al-Hadith/Salafi never come without evidence.

We do not blindly follow an Imaam when he says Witr is Waajib. We do not blindly follow an Imaam when he says Witr is a Sunnah.

Rather, he provides the evidence from where he got his opinion and we follow the evidence.

Learning evidence is different from making Ijtihaad.

That is not Taqliid per definition laid out by the likes of al-Subki.

Now once again please learn first and then throw around words.

Do you know the evidence of why your Imaam called Witr waajib though his two Companions disagreed with him?

[ZeeshanParvez]

It's the fuqaha that decide wether a mursal hadith can be authentic for a prerequisite of a faqih is to be a hadith expert too.

They don't. You need to learn before making erroneous statements like that. A faqiih needs to be a hadith expert but we have many examples where the faqiih has used a weak hadith.

Let's take those fuqahaa' among the Hanafis who have used the following weak hadith for their position that you cannot pray the funeral prayer in the mosque:

من صلى على جنازة في المسجد فلا شئ

al-Nawawi said in al-Majmuu' sharh al-Muhadhdhab regarding that narration:

(وأما) حديث أبي هريرة هذا (فجوابه) من أوجه (أحدها) أنه ضعيف باتفاق الحفاظ وممن نص على ضعفه الإمام أحمد بن حنبل وأبو بكر بن المنذر
والبيهقي وآخرون

[Paraphrase]

As for this hadith of Abu Hurairah then it is answered from many angles. One of them being that is weak by the consensus of the Huffaaz. Those who talked about it being weak included Ahmad bin Hanbal, Abu Bakr bin al-Mundhir, al-BaihaQi and others.

The Hanafi fuqahaa have used this weak hadith to forbid prayer in the mosque.

The Shaafi'i fuqahaa and Muhaddithuun have used the authentic narration in Sahih Muslim to permit it.

Please do not call others misguided while you clearly lack knowledge on a subject.


Reference(s):

al-Majmuu' sharh al-Muhadhdhab
Volume 5 Page 214

[azc]

Learn the definition of Taqliid before trying to use it.

Taqliid means to follow an opinion without knowing the evidence.

While your books come without evidence the books of the ahl al-Hadith/Salafi never come without evidence.

We do not blindly follow an Imaam when he says Witr is Waajib. We do not blindly follow an Imaam when he says Witr is a Sunnah.

Rather, he provides the evidence from where he got his opinion and we follow the evidence.

Learning evidence is different from making Ijtihaad.

That is not Taqliid per definition laid out by the likes of al-Subki.

Now once again please learn first and then throw around words.

Do you know the evidence of why your Imaam called Witr waajib though his two Companions disagreed with him?

Bro, you can't understand this point until you leave blind following of your scholars.

"My scholras, your imam "

Liberate yourself from this mentality.

[azc]

They don't. You need to learn before making erroneous statements like that. A faqiih needs to be a hadith expert but we have many examples where the faqiih has used a weak hadith.

Let's take those fuqahaa' among the Hanafis who have used the following weak hadith for their position that you cannot pray the funeral prayer in the mosque:

من صلى على جنازة في المسجد فلا شئ

al-Nawawi said in al-Majmuu' sharh al-Muhadhdhab regarding that narration:

(وأما) حديث أبي هريرة هذا (فجوابه) من أوجه (أحدها) أنه ضعيف باتفاق الحفاظ وممن نص على ضعفه الإمام أحمد بن حنبل وأبو بكر بن المنذر
والبيهقي وآخرون

[Paraphrase]

As for this hadith of Abu Hurairah then it is answered from many angles. One of them being that is weak by the consensus of the Huffaaz. Those who talked about it being weak included Ahmad bin Hanbal, Abu Bakr bin al-Mundhir, al-BaihaQi and others.

The Hanafi fuqahaa have used this weak hadith to forbid prayer in the mosque.

The Shaafi'i fuqahaa and Muhaddithuun have used the authentic narration in Sahih Muslim to permit it.

Please do not call others misguided while you clearly lack knowledge on a subject.


Reference(s):

al-Majmuu' sharh al-Muhadhdhab
Volume 5 Page 214

Fuqha are more reliable than muhaddidsin.


Here is whhat hanafi scholar says
http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2016/...within-mosque/

[azc]

And you think you are guided? Wow. Talk about arrogance.

Call each other "misguided" and yourself as guided ???.

In truth, nobody knows who is truly guided.

[azc]

And you think you are guided? Wow. Talk about arrogance.

It shows his sympathy, not arrogance

[ZeeshanParvez]

Fuqha are more reliable than muhaddidsin.


Here is whhat hanafi scholar says
http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2016/...within-mosque/

Wrong.

The Hadith they use

Further, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “Whoever performs a funeral prayer (janaza) in the mosque has no reward.” [Abu Dawud]

The Arabic of which you could not read when I posted it above is regarding which al-Nawawi said:

All the Huffaaz agree it is weak.

Ahmad bin Hanbal was both a faqiih and a muhaddith.

He said it is weak.

al-Shaafi'i was both a faqiih and a muhaddith.

He said it is weak.


Your fuqahaa used a weak hadith.

[azc]

Wrong.

The Hadith they use

Further, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “Whoever performs a funeral prayer (janaza) in the mosque has no reward.” [Abu Dawud]

The Arabic of which you could not read when I posted it above is regarding which al-Nawawi said:

All the Huffaaz agree it is weak.

Ahmad bin Hanbal was both a faqiih and a muhaddith.

He said it is weak.

al-Shaafi'i was both a faqiih and a muhaddith.

He said it is weak.


Your fuqahaa used a weak hadith.

You don't want to change this "your fuqha /imam" mentality..

So....
I reply in your language (it's not my personal views though)

All fuqha are children of imam Abu hanifa rh.
Imam shafi'i rh and imam Ahmad b hambal rh are students of his students.

[Linkdeutscher]

It's the position of 4 madhab. Only a few scholars of our time went against the consensus of ummah.

Your stand is wrong.

Give only ONE hadith which proves that there is no difference in salah between men and women.

"Pray as you see me pray" is specific for men. See the hadith.

No it's not. I am talking about the view of the Hanafis on the salah of a woman. It's not the view of the '4 madhhab'.

There is no consensus on how Hanafi women pray. Prove it if you can.

And where did I say there is no difference between the salah of a man and woman? Slow down, read properly, try to understand what was said, then reply.

[Linkdeutscher]

You seem to be a Pakistani alhehadith.

Ah yes, I have heard the same being said regarding Imam Bukhari, that he has the same mentality as Pakistani Ahle Hadees.

Nice.

[Linkdeutscher]

He simply asked you "Are you a mujtahid"?

He didn't ask me anything.

As I said, read properly then reply. You are embarrassing yourself here my friend.

[Linkdeutscher]

oh no i mistakenly liked your post as Imam Abu Hanifa was a hadith expert too; see the prerequisites of a mujtahid; hadith mastery and expertise is one of them:

As for the conditions of the absolute and independent ijtihad, they are mentioned in the Maraqi as-sa’ud in the following line and what follows:
“And that [word ‘faqih’2] is synonymous with the [word] ‘mujtahid’ coupled with those things which bear upon [him] the burden of responsibility,
Such as his being of extreme intelligence by nature, and there is some debate about one who is known to reject juristic analogy [qiyas]
He knows the [juristic] responsibilities through intellectual proofs unless a clear transmitted proof indicates otherwise.
[Sidi Abdullah] says [in his commentary] Nashru al-bunud,
“This means that among the conditions of ijtihad is that [the mujtahid] knows that he must adhere to the intellectual proof which is the foundational condition [al-bara’atu al-asliyya3] until a transmitted proof from a sacred law indicates otherwise.”
He then goes on to mention the other conditions of a mujtahid:
[The sciences of] grammar, prosody, philology, combined with those of usul and rhetoric he must master.
According to the people of precision, [he must know] where the judgements can be found without the condition of having memorized the actual texts.
[All of the above must be known] according to a middle ranked mastery at least. He must also know those matters upon which there is consensus.
[Moreover, he must know] things such as the condition of single hadiths and what carries the authority of great numbers of transmissions; also [knowledge of] what is sound and what is weak is necessary.
Furthermore, what has been abrogated and what abrogates, as well as the conditions under which a verse was revealed or a hadith was transmitted is a condition that must be met.
The states of the narrators and the companions [must also be known]. Therefore, you may follow anyone who fulfils these conditions mentioned above according to the soundest opinion.

http://shaykhhamza.com/transcript/Fa...owing-a-Madhab

I am sorry to break it to you, but he has been declared weak in hadeeth by the majority of muhadditheen. If you so want we can discuss this and I can prove what I have said.

[Linkdeutscher]

You don't want to change this "your fuqha /imam" mentality..

So....
I reply in your language (it's not my personal views though)

All fuqha are children of imam Abu hanifa rh.
Imam shafi'i rh and imam Ahmad b hambal rh are students of his students.

No. This is a typical strawman argument you use, he is not playing your scholars vs my scholars.

I don't think you realize that the consensus of muhadditheen is a form of hujjah, do you?

The claim that all fuqaha are his children is your personal opinion. It is not revelation.

Imam Shafi'ee refuted his students. Please provide evidence that he was their student.

Imam Ahmad said something which you will never be able to hear.

So please. Argue with evidences if you can.

[Linkdeutscher]

You sound as salafi. Salafis are also involved in taqllid shakhsi in form of following a specific set of scholars I.e. salafi scholars only.

DeobandI and barelvi follow their own scholars.

Denying taqllid shakhsi proves you a follower of your own scholars.

I follow 4 imams. I don't follow this age scholars if they go on different path in contrast to 4 imams

I may sound like a load of things. Sounding something is not explicit evidence for anything. Anyway, if you are truthful tell me this 'set' of scholars whom I only follow. Then we can talk.

Yes they do, why are you telling me this?

I follow many scholars, but don't follow a single one blindly. I have to say almost every scholar I have taken from, I have disagreed with certain things.

You, my friend, do not follow the four imaams.

You know what? Let's make this simple. Just prove the Hanafi method of women's prayer from Imam Abu Haneefah. That is all. Don't even use any ahadeeth or verses of the Qur'aan or even the sayings of the three other famous Imaams.

Just from Imam Abu Haneefah.

Think you can do it? If you do it I will accept that you follow the four famous imams.

[ZeeshanParvez]

You don't want to change this "your fuqha /imam" mentality..

So....
I reply in your language (it's not my personal views though)

All fuqha are children of imam Abu hanifa rh.
Imam shafi'i rh and imam Ahmad b hambal rh are students of his students.

Now I further highlight your ignorance. No one is a child of Abu Hanifah in fiqh. Let me guide you to the fabricated quote you used.

“Hadith or Ahlul Hadith” p 39 quoting from “Tarikh Baghdad” v 13 p 346:


“Ash-Shafi’i said: “Attach yourself to Abu Hanifah and his students, because people are dependant in Fiqh to Abu Hanifah”


Answer: the narration contains the liar Ahmad Al-Hamani.


Also quoting from “Manaqib Abu Hanifah” of Al-Kurdari p 99 that Ash-Shafi’i said that he did not see anyone more Faqih than Abu Hanifah.


Answer: This narration also comes from “Tarikh Baghdad” of Al-Khateeb v 13 p 346, and one of its narrators, Zakariya ibn Abdur Rahman is Majhul.

[Linkdeutscher]

Now I further highlight your ignorance. No one is a child of Abu Hanifah in fiqh. Let me guide you to the fabricated quote you used.

“Hadith or Ahlul Hadith” p 39 quoting from “Tarikh Baghdad” v 13 p 346:


“Ash-Shafi’i said: “Attach yourself to Abu Hanifah and his students, because people are dependant in Fiqh to Abu Hanifah”


Answer: the narration contains the liar Ahmad Al-Hamani.


Also quoting from “Manaqib Abu Hanifah” of Al-Kurdari p 99 that Ash-Shafi’i said that he did not see anyone more Faqih than Abu Hanifah.


Answer: This narration also comes from “Tarikh Baghdad” of Al-Khateeb v 13 p 346, and one of its narrators, Zakariya ibn Abdur Rahman is Majhul.

Ah yes I was waiting for him to actually falsely attribute that saying to Imam Shafi'ee after I said that that is his opinion, but you have already refuted it. Nice.

[azc]

No. This is a typical strawman argument you use, he is not playing your scholars vs my scholars.I don't think you realize that the consensus of muhadditheen is a form of hujjah, do you?The claim that all fuqaha are his children is your personal opinion. It is not revelation. Imam Shafi'ee refuted his students. Please provide evidence that he was their student. Imam Ahmad said something which you will never be able to hear. So please. Argue with evidences if you can.

No, he's been writing ''your imam'' continuously. See his post. Whereas I regard all fuqha and muhaddisin as ''our fuqha and our muhaddisin'' I don't differentiate between them.... Imam shafi'i rh said,'' all fuqha are children of imam abu hanifa rh in fiqh''...Imam shafi'i rh took ilm from imam Muhammad rh etc and imam ahmad b hambal rh from imam waki rh, imam abu yusuf rh etc....As far as ijma is concerned no ijma of muhaddisin or fuqha can be established in the light strict conditions of ijma... Even the classical scholars had differences in conditions of establishing ijma

[ZeeshanParvez]

Ah yes I was waiting for him to actually falsely attribute that saying to Imam Shafi'ee after I said that that is his opinion, but you have already refuted it. Nice.

His premise is false even if it was authentic. Just because someone is someones student does not mean the teacher gets the last say. That is subcontinent mentality.

A student many times excels the teacher. False premise is what he basks on.

He also forgets that unless he admits he does not ascribe to the Hanafi Madhab, Abu Hanifah, Abu Yusuf, and Muhammad bin al-Hasan are his Imaams.

[ZeeshanParvez]

As far as ijma is concerned no ijma of muhaddisin or fuqha can be established in the light strict conditions of ijma... Even the classical scholars had differences in conditions of establishing ijma

Once again you utter a false statement.

Ijmaa has been established on issues.

You need to pick up classical books and read them to rid yourself of your ignorance. Spreading ignorance about he Diin of Allaah is a crime one for which you will have to answer in front of the King of kings on a Day when your mother, father, friends, and children will not be there to offer you any respite.

[Linkdeutscher]

No, he's been writing ''your imam'' continuously. See his post.

Is he not your imaam? What is the issue? Don't you call him al Imaam al A'tham, i.e the greatest imaam? Why do you get offended then?

Whereas I regard all fuqha and muhaddisin as ''our fuqha and our muhaddisin'' I don't differentiate between them....

You clearly do differentiate in whom you choose to follow and whom you don't.

Imam shafi'i rh said,'' all fuqha are children of imam abu hanifa rh in fiqh''...

Did you meet Imam Shafi'iee in real life? When did he say it?

Imam shafi'i rh took ilm from imam Muhammad rh etc

Even if he did, so? Anyway, it is well established that he debated and refuted him

and imam ahmad b hambal rh from imam waki rh, imam abu yusuf rh etc..

Imam Ahmad was asked if a person who hates the companions of Abu Haneefah will be rewarded. He said yes, such a person will be rewarded.

As far as ijma is concerned no ijma of muhaddisin or fuqha can be established in the light strict conditions of ijma... Even the classical scholars had differences in conditions of establishing ijma

So ijmaa' is impossible to establish? Is that what you are saying?

[azc]

Is he not your imaam? What is the issue? Don't you call him al Imaam al A'tham, i.e the greatest imaam? Why do you get offended then?You clearly do differentiate in whom you choose to follow and whom you don't. Did you meet Imam Shafi'iee in real life? When did he say it? Even if he did, so? Anyway, it is well established that he debated and refuted himImam Ahmad was asked if a person who hates the companions of Abu Haneefah will be rewarded. He said yes, such a person will be rewarded.So ijmaa' is impossible to establish? Is that what you are saying?

see this link for your previous post what other 3 madhab say regarding women's salah

.https://ia600809.us.archive.org/11/i...nd%20Women.pdf

[azc]

Once again you utter a false statement.

Ijmaa has been established on issues.

You need to pick up classical books and read them to rid yourself of your ignorance. Spreading ignorance about he Diin of Allaah is a crime one for which you will have to answer in front of the King of kings on a Day when your mother, father, friends, and children will not be there to offer you any respite.

Ijma of Sahaba ikam RA is approved (unanimously). Rest is disputed among scholars.

[azc]

His premise is false even if it was authentic. Just because someone is someones student does not mean the teacher gets the last say. That is subcontinent mentality.

A student many times excels the teacher. False premise is what he basks on.

He also forgets that unless he admits he does not ascribe to the Hanafi Madhab, Abu Hanifah, Abu Yusuf, and Muhammad bin al-Hasan are his Imaams.

Everyone is watching your mentality to refute fuqha ahnaf.

I respect all classical scholars and imam but your mind/heart is replete with hatred.

[azc]

The thread was started to share the knowledge regarding salah but it has been derailed and two respectable members have focussed their energy on degrading the fuqha ahnaf.

[azc]

Now I further highlight your ignorance. No one is a child of Abu Hanifah in fiqh. Let me guide you to the fabricated quote you used.

“Hadith or Ahlul Hadith” p 39 quoting from “Tarikh Baghdad” v 13 p 346:


“Ash-Shafi’i said: “Attach yourself to Abu Hanifah and his students, because people are dependant in Fiqh to Abu Hanifah”


Answer: the narration contains the liar Ahmad Al-Hamani.


Also quoting from “Manaqib Abu Hanifah” of Al-Kurdari p 99 that Ash-Shafi’i said that he did not see anyone more Faqih than Abu Hanifah.


Answer: This narration also comes from “Tarikh Baghdad” of Al-Khateeb v 13 p 346, and one of its narrators, Zakariya ibn Abdur Rahman is Majhul.

Can you give scan pages where these narratos have been declared weak and whose statement is this?

[azc]

@ZeeshanParvez
Do you give any respect for imam Dhabi rh. He wrote

Shafiee said: People are children of Abu Haneefa in fiqh. I say: Fiqh and Deducing rulings from fiqh is clear from this Imam. This is something where there is no doubt. (Then dahabee writes the arabic poetry which means) Even If there is a need to provide evidence for emittance of the day, Then according to the people who have this type of mind nothing is authentic. Two volumes can be written on the life of Imam, this was the life of Imam. May Allah be please with him and shower his mercy on him. He was martyred in 150 Hijrah because someone gave him poison. He was 70 years old at that time.{ السیر :6/403 }


Will you mind to see this salafi link and do tawba from this grudge and hatred

http://www.systemoflife.com/articles...-of-abu-hanifa

[ZeeshanParvez]

@ZeeshanParvez
Do you give any respect for imam Dhabi rh. He wrote

Shafiee said: People are children of Abu Haneefa in fiqh. I say: Fiqh and Deducing rulings from fiqh is clear from this Imam. This is something where there is no doubt. (Then dahabee writes the arabic poetry which means) Even If there is a need to provide evidence for emittance of the day, Then according to the people who have this type of mind nothing is authentic. Two volumes can be written on the life of Imam, this was the life of Imam. May Allah be please with him and shower his mercy on him. He was martyred in 150 Hijrah because someone gave him poison. He was 70 years old at that time.{ السیر :6/403 }


Will you mind to see this salafi link and do tawba from this grudge and hatred

http://www.systemoflife.com/articles...-of-abu-hanifa

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

I haven't mentioned anything about Abu Hanifah being weak. You seem to mix up users. Do you mix up Fiqh and Hadith in your learning as well? You don't suffer from impaired cognitive function do you? Link told you Abu Hanifah is weak in hadith and can show you. I haven't touched the subject as of yet.

I have highlighted a fact you fail to address because you cannot.

Your fuqahaa used a weak hadith to prohibit the funeral prayer in the mosque.

al-Nawawi said all huffaaz say that hadith is weak.

Now I gave you the page number of the book and the Arabic. Stop running every thread into pages so others cannot see the evidence as I will simply start copying pasting it on every page until you stop going off on tangents.

You claim fuqahaa judge hadith. You do not know what you talk about.

I don't say this. al-Nawawi showed that your fuqahaa used a weak hadith.

Now what is your answer to this question.

Discuss Abu Hanifah with Link.

[azc]

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

I haven't mentioned anything about Abu Hanifah being weak. You seem to mix up users. Do you mix up Fiqh and Hadith in your learning as well? You don't suffer from impaired cognitive function do you? Link told you Abu Hanifah is weak in hadith and can show you. I haven't touched the subject as of yet.

I have highlighted a fact you fail to address because you cannot.

Your fuqahaa used a weak hadith to prohibit the funeral prayer in the mosque.

al-Nawawi said all huffaaz say that hadith is weak.

Now I gave you the page number of the book and the Arabic. Stop running every thread into pages so others cannot see the evidence as I will simply start copying pasting it on every page until you stop going off on tangents.

You claim fuqahaa judge hadith. You do not know what you talk about.

I don't say this. al-Nawawi showed that your fuqahaa used a weak hadith.

Now what is your answer to this question.

Discuss Abu Hanifah with Link.

Do you Havre comprehension problem?

I quoted the statement of imam Dhabi rh that imam shafi rh said " people are children of imam Abu hanifa rh in fiqh" which you have tried prove as fabricated statement.

Open your eyes, put off the glasses of hatred from your eyes and read.

Don't pollute this forum with your ill mentality.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Do you Havre comprehension problem?

I quoted the statement of imam Dhabi rh that imam shafi rh said " people are children of imam Abu hanifa rh in fiqh" which you have tried prove as fabricated statement.

Open your eyes, put off the glasses of hatred from your eyes and read.

Don't pollute this forum with your ill mentality.

Provide the scanned copy with the chain if you are truthful otherwise you are going off on tangents and have proven that you are ignorant.

[azc]

Provide the scanned copy with the chain if you are truthful otherwise you are going off on tangents and have proven that you are ignorant.

Your a jahil and liar.
This statement of imam shafi rh you tried to prove fabricated without quoting the name of book or muhaddis, now hiding your face

[AbdurRahman.]

They don't. You need to learn before making erroneous statements like that. A faqiih needs to be a hadith expert but we have many examples where the faqiih has used a weak hadith.

Let's take those fuqahaa' among the Hanafis who have used the following weak hadith for their position that you cannot pray the funeral prayer in the mosque:

من صلى على جنازة في المسجد فلا شئ

al-Nawawi said in al-Majmuu' sharh al-Muhadhdhab regarding that narration:

(وأما) حديث أبي هريرة هذا (فجوابه) من أوجه (أحدها) أنه ضعيف باتفاق الحفاظ وممن نص على ضعفه الإمام أحمد بن حنبل وأبو بكر بن المنذر
والبيهقي وآخرون

[Paraphrase]

As for this hadith of Abu Hurairah then it is answered from many angles. One of them being that is weak by the consensus of the Huffaaz. Those who talked about it being weak included Ahmad bin Hanbal, Abu Bakr bin al-Mundhir, al-BaihaQi and others.

The Hanafi fuqahaa have used this weak hadith to forbid prayer in the mosque.

The Shaafi'i fuqahaa and Muhaddithuun have used the authentic narration in Sahih Muslim to permit it.

Please do not call others misguided while you clearly lack knowledge on a subject.


Reference(s):

al-Majmuu' sharh al-Muhadhdhab
Volume 5 Page 214

a faqih is one who performs ijtihad thus has to have a thorough insight into all evidences, hence a prerequiste is to master all the relevent sciences and hadith mastery is one of them; in that link i gave link [ha ha link i gave link! :D] it says they have to know the status of hadiths; i have also read that they have to know all the hadith narrators biography rather intimately too so far from it being erroneous, this is what all ahlus sunnah scholars will say

a hadith can be weak to one scholar and hasan or even sahih to another, this is why best to follow a madhab as we laymen cannot work out which opinion is correct; if we give preference to one hadith over another we are just following our desires because if it is not based on a thoroughly insightful ijtihad, what else can it be based on?

bro look at how a hadith status can differ from Imam to imam:

http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/madhhabstlk.htm

[Linkdeutscher]

see this link for your previous post what other 3 madhab say regarding women's salah

.https://ia600809.us.archive.org/11/i...nd%20Women.pdf

I am sorry.

I don't play 'go read the link'. Anything you want to present, present it in your own words/write it out yourself or even copy it if you want. Unless it is a scan (for obvious reasons.)

Second you quoted my post and replied to something which was not even mentioned in this post.

Third, I have told you to prove the prayer of Hanafi women using

1) Weak ahadeeth, I challenged you that even using weak ahadeeth you cannot
2) Then I said using the sayings of Abu Haneefah.

You haven't done any of that until now.

[Linkdeutscher]

Fuqha are more reliable than muhaddidsin.


Here is whhat hanafi scholar says
http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2016/...within-mosque/

Shafi'ees are also fuqaha. Hanbalis are also fuqaha.

You talk as if the only fuqaha are your Hanafi scholars. A false premise being used.

Let's accept your statement to be true, that fuqaha are more reliable than muhadditheen.

Are the fuqaha agreed that that hadeeth is authentic and usable? Are they?

What happens when fuqaha disagree?

[Linkdeutscher]

Your a jahil and liar.
This statement of imam shafi rh you tried to prove fabricated without quoting the name of book or muhaddis, now hiding your face

Did Al Dhahabi meet Imam Shafi'ee?

[Linkdeutscher]

Ijma of Sahaba ikam RA is approved (unanimously). Rest is disputed among scholars.

You don't even know what you're saying.

I repeat my question - is ijmaa' impossible to establish (besides the ijmaa' of the companions)?

[azc]

I am sorry.

I don't play 'go read the link'. Anything you want to present, present it in your own words/write it out yourself or even copy it if you want. Unless it is a scan (for obvious reasons.)

Second you quoted my post and replied to something which was not even mentioned in this post.

Third, I have told you to prove the prayer of Hanafi women using

1) Weak ahadeeth, I challenged you that even using weak ahadeeth you cannot
2) Then I said using the sayings of Abu Haneefah.

You haven't done any of that until now.

The Shafi‘i Madhhab

Imam al-Nawawi (631 – 676 H), the great Shafi‘i muhaqqiq, said:

قال الشافعي رحمه الله فى المختصر: ولا فرق بين الرجال والنساء في عمل الصلاة، إلا أن المرأة يستحب لها أن تضم بعضها إلى بعض وأن تلصق بطنها بفخذيها فى السجود كأستر ما يكون، وأحب ذلك فى الركوع وفي جميع الصلاة، وأن تكثف جلبابها وتجافيه راكعة وساجدة لئلا يصفها ثيابها، وأن تخفض صوتها وإن نابها شيء في صلاتها صفقت، هذا نصه.

قال أصحابنا: المرأة كالرجل في أركان الصلاة وشروطها وأبعاضها وأما الهيئات المسنونات فهي كالرجل في معظمها وتخالفه فيما ذكره الشافعي، وىخالف النساء الرجال في صلاة الجماعة في أشياء…

“Al-Shafi‘i – may Allah have mercy on him – said in al-Mukhtasar: ‘There is no distinction between men and women in the actions of Salah, except that it is preferable for the woman that part of her clings to a part, and her stomach clings to her thighs in prostration in a manner that is most concealing (for her), and I prefer this in bowing and in the entire Salah; and that she makes her jilbab thick and she separates it (from her body) while bowing and prostrating so that her clothing does not describe her (i.e. her shape and form); and that she lowers her voice and if something occurs to her in her Salah (while in congregation), she claps (i.e. to alert the imam to the mistake).’ This is his (i.e. al-Shafi‘i’s) statement.

“Our companions said: The woman is like the man in the integrals of Salah, its conditions and its parts. As for the prescribed postures, she is like the man in most of them and she differs from him in what al-Shafi‘i mentioned. And women differ from men in congregational prayer in some things…” (al-Majmu‘ Sharh al-Muhadhdhab, 3:495)

The Hanbali Madhhab

Muwaffaq al-Din Ibn Qudamah al-Maqdisi (541 – 620 H), the great Hanbali muhaqqiq, said:

مسألة: قال: والرجل والمرأة في ذلك سواء إلا أن المرأة تجمع نفسها فى الركوع والسجود وتجلس متربعة أو تسدل رجليها فتجعلهما في جانب يمينها.

الأصل أن يثبت في حق المرأة من أحكام الصلاة ما يثبت للرجال لأن الخطاب يشملهما، غير أنها خالفته في ترك التجافي لأنها عورة فاستحب لها جمع نفسها ليكون أستر لها، فإنه لا يؤمن أن يبدو منها شيء حال التجافي. وكذلك فى الافتراش.

قال أحمد: والسدل أعجب إلي. واختاره الخلال. قال علي رضي الله عنه: إذا صلت المرأة فلتحتفز ولتضم فخذيها وعن ابن عمر رضي الله عنهما أنه كان يأمر النساء أن يتربعن فى الصلاة

“Ruling: He (i.e. Abu l-Qasim al-Khiraqi al-Hanbali, (d. 334 H)) said: ‘And the man and woman are equal in this (i.e. the description of Salah) except that the woman collects herself when bowing and prostrating and she sits in the tarabbu‘ position (inserting the left foot between the thigh and shin of the right leg) or she practises sadl by placing them both to her right side.’

“The default is that whatever is established for men from the rules of Salah is established with respect to a woman because the address (of the Shari‘ah) encompasses both of them; except that she differs from him in not separating (her limbs) because she is ‘awrah (as established in hadith). Hence, it is preferred for her to collect herself so that it is more concealing for her, because there is no surety that something will not appear from her in the situation of separating (her limbs), and likewise when (sitting in) the iftirash position (i.e. erecting the right foot so the toes point towards the qiblah and sitting on the left foot).

“Ahmad said: ‘Sadl is more appealing to me.’ Al-Khallal preferred this. ‘Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) said: ‘When the woman prays, she should draw (herself) together, and join her thighs,” and (it was narrated) from Ibn ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) that he would order the women to adopt the tarabbu‘ position in Salah.” (Mughni, Dar ‘Alam al-Kutub, 2:258-9)
Imam Ahmad’s son, ‘Abd Allah, narrates:

قلت: كيف تسجد المرأة وكيف تقعد للتشهد؟ قال: كيف كان أستر

“I said (to Imam Ahmad): ‘How does a woman prostrate and how does she sit for Tashahhud?’ He said: ‘However is most concealing (for her).’” (Masa’il al-Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal Riwayat Ibnihi ‘Abdillah ibn Ahmad, al-Maktab al-Islami, p. 79)

The Maliki Madhhab

Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (d. 386) – known as “little Malik” – stated in his treatise on Maliki fiqh:

وهي في هيئة الصلاة مثله غير أنها تنضم ولا تفرج فخذيها ولا عضديها في جلوسها وسجودها وأمرها كله

“And she (i.e. the woman) in the posture(s) of Salah is like him (i.e. the man), except that she draws (herself) together and she does not part her thighs, nor her upper arms during her sitting, her prostration and her entire affair.”

‘Ali ibn Khalaf al-Manufi al-Maliki’s (857 – 939 H) comments on this passage:

وما ذكره رواية ابن زياد عن مالك وهو خلاف قول ابن القاسم فى المدونة لأنه ساوى بين الرجل والمرأة فى الهيئة

“What he (i.e. Ibn Abi Zayd) stated is the narration of Ibn Ziyad from Malik and it is contrary to the narration of Ibn al-Qasim in al-Mudawwanah because he equated between the man and woman in the posture(s).”

And al-‘Adawi (d. 1189 H) said in his marginalia to this work:

الراجح كلام المصنف الذي هو رواية ابن زياد، ورواية ابن القاسم ضعيف كما هو المفهوم من خليل وشراحه

“The preferred (view) is the opinion of the author (Ibn Abi Zayd) which is the narration of Ibn Ziyad (from Malik); and the narration of Ibn al-Qasim is weak as is understood from (the Mukhtasar of) Khalil and its commentators.”

(Kifayat al-Talib al-Rabbani, Matba‘ah al-Madani, 1:551-2)

In summary, there are two views in the Maliki madhhab both narrated from Imam Malik. One, that a woman is exactly the same as a man in the postures of Salah. And the second that a woman differs from him in that she draws herself together and does not separate her limbs in all the postures of Salah. The favoured view of the madhhab is the latter, making it equivalent to the other madhhabs.

Hence, all of the four madhhabs agree that a woman differs from a man in the postures of salah, in that she adopts the positions that are most concealing for.

[azc]

Shafi'ees are also fuqaha. Hanbalis are also fuqaha.

You talk as if the only fuqaha are your Hanafi scholars. A false premise being used.

Let's accept your statement to be true, that fuqaha are more reliable than muhadditheen.

Are the fuqaha agreed that that hadeeth is authentic and usable? Are they?

What happens when fuqaha disagree?

Yes, indeed they're and in case of differences I respect their research though but prefer imam abu hanifa rh (but in a few cases other imams are followed)

[azc]

You don't even know what you're saying.

I repeat my question - is ijmaa' impossible to establish (besides the ijmaa' of the companions)?

Yes, possible if differences in defined conditions of imams are ignored.
E.g.
According to imam Malik rh ijma of people of madina is reliable

[azc]

Did Al Dhahabi meet Imam Shafi'ee?

Certainly not but if you put this condition that liqa is essential then you will have to reject all the books of rijal which don't abide by this condition

Perhaps you're unaware of these books.

[Supernova]

I need brief and correct method to do salah for women...pls anybody help me...

Asalaamualaykum:

In essence All the madhabs and non-madhabs all perform Salaah correctly.

If you learn to pray according to a madhab or non-madhab, the bottom line is no scholar has plucked willy nilly methods from their desires. All madhab and non-madhab scholars to their best ability from both Quran and Sunnah has dedicated their lives into bringing that Salaah to us all.

The truth of the situation is that no one in 2017 can say I jumped in time machine, went back, saw it with my own eyes, even asked our beloved Rasool the correct method, jumped back in the time machine and "Here you are" !!! All evidences provided are all subjective as we only left either a text proof or a sanad proof of the method.

If you divulge into the correct method !!! You will have to learn the principles of each madhab and non madhab under scholars (That will take many years) and then hopefully you might just crack the enigma code after many years...Question is.......What method will you use during all the years spent into investigating the methods ?????

Just go any method....and PRAY THAT SALAAH !!! At least you will get rewarded for effort rather than missing the salaah because you were on some quest trying to find out which is correct and missed all your salaah in that time.

Don't get involved in scholar bashing and qualifying or un-qualifying issues that you yourself don't know the true reality about.

Wasalaam.

[azc]

Asalaamualaykum:

In essence All the madhabs and non-madhabs all perform Salaah correctly.

If you learn to pray according to a madhab or non-madhab, the bottom line is no scholar has plucked willy nilly methods from their desires. All madhab and non-madhab scholars to their best ability from both Quran and Sunnah has dedicated their lives into bringing that Salaah to us all.

The truth of the situation is that no one in 2017 can say I jumped in time machine, went back, saw it with my own eyes, even asked our beloved Rasool the correct method, jumped back in the time machine and "Here you are" !!! All evidences provided are all subjective as we only left either a text proof or a sanad proof of the method.

If you divulge into the correct method !!! You will have to learn the principles of each madhab and non madhab under scholars (That will take many years) and then hopefully you might just crack the enigma code after many years...Question is.......What method will you use during all the years spent into investigating the methods ?????

Just go any method....and PRAY THAT SALAAH !!! At least you will get rewarded for effort rather than missing the salaah because you were on some quest trying to find out which is correct and missed all your salaah in that time.

Don't get involved in scholar bashing and qualifying or un-qualifying issues that you yourself don't know the true reality about.

Wasalaam.

This is why it's safer to follow madhab

[ZeeshanParvez]

Yes, indeed they're and in case of differences I respect their research though but prefer imam abu hanifa rh (but in a few cases other imams are followed)

How can you, as a layman, prefer one over another?

And so I was right in calling him your Imaam.

Why do you hide facts? Is winning a debate really important to you? Is it an ego issue?

[AbdurRahman.]

I am sorry to break it to you, but he has been declared weak in hadeeth by the majority of muhadditheen. If you so want we can discuss this and I can prove what I have said.

let me research this more brother and i'll get back soon! :)

[ZeeshanParvez]

Your a jahil and liar.
This statement of imam shafi rh you tried to prove fabricated without quoting the name of book or muhaddis, now hiding your face

The pot calling the kettle black.

You know what I love about fanatical muqallids, they can't tell the difference between quotes and when cornered with their own challenges they get emotional.

Let's quote the quote I posted, shall we. I have waited all these days to see if you can post the quote you were on about but its obvious you only copy paste from chosen websites.

This shall highlight the pot calling the kettle black.

So, what I posted said:

Now I further highlight your ignorance. No one is a child of Abu Hanifah in fiqh. Let me guide you to the fabricated quote you used.

“Hadith or Ahlul Hadith” p 39 quoting from “Tarikh Baghdad” v 13 p 346:


“Ash-Shafi’i said: “Attach yourself to Abu Hanifah and his students, because people are dependant in Fiqh to Abu Hanifah”


Answer: the narration contains the liar Ahmad Al-Hamani.


Also quoting from “Manaqib Abu Hanifah” of Al-Kurdari p 99 that Ash-Shafi’i said that he did not see anyone more Faqih than Abu Hanifah.


Answer: This narration also comes from “Tarikh Baghdad” of Al-Khateeb v 13 p 346, and one of its narrators, Zakariya ibn Abdur Rahman is Majhul.

And that sent you on fire and you came back with a layman, typical:

Can you give scan pages where these narrators have been declared weak and whose statement is this?

Then I asked you to give a scanned copy of what you keep posting and all you could muster up was the typical, layman

Jaahil, Liar.


You amuse me. I smile at everything you post.

I know you do not know the difference between quotes. Nor do you have the skills to research an issue independently. Instead, for you it is all copy and paste from here and there.

So, Ill give you screenshots of one of my quotes with the liar in it and then leave you from now on as you have shown that research isn't your strong point. Actually, taqliid is your strong point.

Enjoy.

Oh and I got that quote from here which can read if you want. Quite clearly the information of the author was spot on and authentic as I have found you the scans of what he said.

Attachment 6141Attachment 6142

[azc]

The pot calling the kettle black.

You know what I love about fanatical muqallids, they can't tell the difference between quotes and when cornered with their own challenges they get emotional.

Let's quote the quote I posted, shall we. I have waited all these days to see if you can post the quote you were on about but its obvious you only copy paste from chosen websites.

This shall highlight the pot calling the kettle black.

So, what I posted said:




And that sent you on fire and you came back with a layman, typical:




Then I asked you to give a scanned copy of what you keep posting and all you could muster up was the typical, layman

Jaahil, Liar.


You amuse me. I smile at everything you post.

I know you do not know the difference between quotes. Nor do you have the skills to research an issue independently. Instead, for you it is all copy and paste from here and there.

So, Ill give you screenshots of one of my quotes with the liar in it and then leave you from now on as you have shown that research isn't your strong point. Actually, taqliid is your strong point.

Enjoy.

Oh and I got that quote from here which can read if you want. Quite clearly the information of the author was spot on and authentic as I have found you the scans of what he said.

Attachment 6141Attachment 6142

You will not stop your deception.

Al-Albaanee concludes his discussion in ad-Da`eefah by saying, “so we conclude with the words of adh-Dhahabee in ‘Siyar A`laam an-Nubulaa’ [5/288/1], ‘his being an Imaam in fiqh and its fine points is accepted and there is no doubt in this…’”

We were discussing about his fiqh and not as a narrator of hadith.
When muhaddidsin didn't take his hadith then what's the point of discussing this issue?

What's name of the book the scan is whereof.

[azc]

I got this article regarding the issue being discussed.

https://ulamaehaqulamaedeoband.wordp...zar/#more-4344
https://ulamaehaqulamaedeoband.files...29_page433.png

[ZeeshanParvez]

You will not your deception.

Can you write coherent sentences or has your predicament made you forget English?

Al-Albaanee concludes his discussion in ad-Da`eefah by saying, “so we conclude with the words of adh-Dhahabee in ‘Siyar A`laam an-Nubulaa’ [5/288/1], ‘his being an Imaam in fiqh and its fine points is accepted and there is no doubt in this…’”

We aren't discussing what al-Albaani concludes. We were discussing your fuqahaa using weak hadith. Then, you went to Abu hanifah. Now we are discussing the quote I coped pasted and your allegation that I lied and am a Jaahil.

You can't seem to follow a discussion. Or maybe you need to resort to tangents to save your skin.

We were discussing about his fiqh and not as a narrator of hadith.

We weren't discussing him period! We were discussing your fuqahaa who deemed the narration of not praying the funeral prayer in the mosque until you brought in the Fiqh of Abu hanifah.

When muhaddidsin didn't take his hadith then what's the point of discussing this issue?

I don't know. You are the one who always goes off on tangents. I was discussing an issue about fuqahaa using weak hadith. You went off onto all sorts after that. Ask yourself. Don't ask me why you derailed the subject.

The subject was the difference between men's and women's prayer being based on weak hadith as attested by the masters of hadith but then you with your erroneous theories came in claiming the fuqahaa should be listened to as opposed to hadith masters.

You seem not to remember what you do.

What's name of the book the scan is whereof.

Mizan al-I'tidal by Imaam al-Dhahabi.

[azc]

Can you write coherent sentences or has your predicament made you forget English?



We aren't discussing what al-Albaani concludes. We were discussing your fuqahaa using weak hadith. Then, you went to Abu hanifah. Now we are discussing the quote I coped pasted and your allegation that I lied and am a Jaahil.

You can't seem to follow a discussion. Or maybe you need to resort to tangents to save your skin.



We weren't discussing him period! We were discussing your fuqahaa who deemed the narration of not praying the funeral prayer in the mosque until you brought in the Fiqh of Abu hanifah.



I don't know. You are the one who always goes off on tangents. I was discussing an issue about fuqahaa using weak hadith. You went off onto all sorts after that. Ask yourself. Don't ask me why you derailed the subject.

The subject was the difference between men's and women's prayer being based on weak hadith as attested by the masters of hadith but then you with your erroneous theories came in claiming the fuqahaa should be listened to as opposed to hadith masters.

You seem not to remember what you do.




Mizan al-I'tidal by Imaam al-Dhahabi.

With due respect to muhaddidsin I would like to say that they were misinformed or had misundetstanding about this greteast imam of fiqh and most knowledgable alim of Quran and hadith because a person of weak memory can't understand even basics of the Deen let alone being a faqih.




when I see people criticising hazrat imam Abu Hanifa rh, -I feel how great he was and how great his students were and great Muslims their followers were.-




Despite all opposition hanafi madhab spread across the globe. Ahnaf remained in power but they didn't try to decimate other groups.




3 groups of ummah were deprived of their rights.


Ansaar
Ahl ul bayat
Ahnaf

You only tried to prove him weak in hadith but I hope you believe following statements also.

NOW TELL ME IF IMAM HANIFA RH WAS A MUSLIM LET ALONE HIM BEING A FAQIH OR IMAM OR ALIM? ??,



Tell me your hidden feelings
About this poor man?-

"…Ahmad bin Hassan Tirmidhi quotes, 'I heard Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal say that Abu Hanifa is a liar". (Tarikh al Baghdad Volume 13 page 418)

Imam Malik condemned Abu Hanifa

Dr Islam Mahmood Misri, wrote an article "Shi'a aur Sunni" for the Egyptian magazine "Mukhthar al Islami" - issue 90, 8th edition, Jamadhi al Awwal 1406 Hijri. On page 13 (where the article is located) we read:

"Imam Malik said that Abu Hanifa was the worst of people and that it would have been easier for him to raise his sword against the Muslims".

In Tarikh al Baghdad Volume 13 page 392, we read:

"Imam Malik said that for the Muslims Abu Hanifa's Fitnah is more damaging than the Fitnah of Shaytan".

In the same book we read further comments by Imam Malik:

"Imam Malik bin Anas stated that in Islam, no one has damaged it more than Numan" (Tarikh al Baghdad Volume 13 page 396)

"Once Imam Malik asked Walid bin Muslim: 'do people listen to Abu Hanifa in your city? he said: 'yes.' Imam Malik replied 'its amazing that your city has not been destroyed….Imam Malik said Abu Hanifa mocked Allah's Deen, whoever does so is irreligious." (Tarikh al Baghdad Volume 13 page 400)

Imam Idrees Shafi'i condemned Imam Abu Hanifa
In Tarikh Baghdad Volume 13 page 398 we read:

"Imam Shafi'i said that no-one more mischievous has appeared in Islam than Abu Hanifa"

Again Baghdad records this:

Also in Tarikh Baghdad Volume 13 page 411 we read:

"Imam Shafi'i said that Imam Abu Hanifa's Fatwas are like a chameleon, they continually changes their colors"

When the news of Abu Hanifas death reached Sufyan al-Thawri he praised Allah (swt) who relieved Islam from the Fitnah of Abu Hanifa. Numan weakened every page of Islam. Imam of Ahlul Sunnah Uzay said on his death said That Numan was the most harmful thing to Islam. Tarikh Baghdad Volume 13 page 398

Abu Hanifa was born in 80 Hijri and died in 152 Hijri.

"Hasan Amara the Qadhi of Baghdad read his Janaza, someone dreamt that he was rapped in a black shrewd and was surrounded by Christian priests" Tarikh Baghdad Volume 13 page 422

[Zafran]

Wait - are you implying he was a muqallid of Imam Ahmad?

You need to educate yourself on the differences between taqleed of an imaam, taqleed of a madhhab named after an Imaam, and studying and adopting the usool of a maddhab to derive rulings.

At best Imam Ibn Tamiyyah fell into the last category.

You need to follow the full discussion (which is not beneficial for anyone) - If you can manufacture differences from Imam and madhab then you clearly havent read the thread and where we decided to leave it.

[Zafran]

Imaam Bukhaari is not a mujtahid because Ibn Taymiyyah said so, that was just an example.

He is one because he was, unless you want to say he wasn't.

Non of this actually makes any sense unless your stating things for the sake of argumentation.

[Zafran]

'Are you a mujtahid?'

Mujtahids have always been the minority in the ummah, the vast majority of people have generally been laymen.

So your rhetoric also applies to the era of the best generations, i.e the salaf, as laymen who were not mujtahids also existed in extremely high numbers during their time.

Yet, the concept of exclusive taqleed of one madhhab, a.k.a taqleed shakshi was not present among them.

It only started during the fourth century.

So if your argumentation was indeed correct, then the laymen of the salaf would've surely done what you suggest, taqleed of one of the main schools. Sadly, no such thing happened, in fact those schools were formed later.

what??? salaf and common layman like me and You - there is a big difference between the two - big one.

we concluded that anyone to do Ijthaid had to be a mujtahiad - If your not one like me and You then you need to do taqeed or better still train to be one. Simple end of discussion.

[ZeeshanParvez]

With due respect to muhaddidsin I would like to say that they were misinformed or had misundetstanding about this greteast imam of fiqh and most knowledgable alim of Quran and hadith because a person of weak memory can't understand even basics of the Deen let alone being a faqih.

This is where you were going to end up. All of the subcontinent Hanafi muqalliduun I have ever discussed issues with, either in real life or online, have eventually come to admitting they think of Abu Hanifah as the "greatest Imaam of Fiqh and most knowledgeable alim of Qur'aan and hadith" despite being shown evidences to the contrary.

You Hanafis do not live up to your word of respecting all the Imaams. It is the ahl al-hadith/Salafis who do. We live that respect. We know none of them was perfect. The scholars of the ahl al-Hadith/Salafis research the views. They study the Usuul and then come to conclusions. They do not accept verdicts based on whims or because they hold one Imaam more dear to them than any other. No, they accept verdicts based on the truth.

All this while you have preached to be open mind. You preached to move away from closed mentality. However, you have shown that you exhibit the closed Hanafi subcontinent mentality.

For one man, you will label all the muhaddithuun as "misinformed" and claim they "misunderstood" him. It is as if there was a giant conspiracy, a political vendetta against your Imaam. They labelled him weak not because he was but because they had a grudge against him. They were jealous of him. They were biased.

Is this really how your scholars brainwash you against the Muahddithuun in order to protect one man and his/their Madhab? Or this is something you layman coin to doge the intellectual discussions which you know you cannot answer?

when I see people criticising hazrat imam Abu Hanifa rh, -I feel how great he was and how great his students were and great Muslims their followers were.-

When you see the scholars of Hadith and the giant Fuqahaa of the past criticizing him you feel the need to accuse them of things you have no proof of but your mere conjecture.

People do not criticize him. Scholars of hadith and the Fuqahaa of the greatest generations which have passed are the ones who criticize.

Use proper terms. Know the difference.

Despite all opposition hanafi madhab spread across the globe. Ahnaf remained in power but they didn't try to decimate other groups.

You are unaware and ignorant of a lot of things. You have shown that over and over again in your discussions on any issue you have attempted to debate or discuss. You are once again ignorant on this matter.

All the Madhabs have shown enmity to one another in the past. If you are unaware of this fact, you need to learn. And if you think only the ahnaaf did not show enmity while others did, then you are a fanatic of your Madhab. A man who will close eyes to the actions of his Madhab, consider them to be angels, and accuse others.

3 groups of ummah were deprived of their rights.


Ansaar
Ahl ul bayat
Ahnaf

Subhaan Allaah. You have placed the ahnaaf with those regarding who no one can compare to? The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) spoke highly of the Ansaar and the ahl al-Bait. They had the approval of Allaah and His Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam).

Where did the 'ahnaaf get this approval. Or are you like Muhammad Ala' ad-Din Haskafi who put the following narrations in his book. Then he accuses Ibn al-Jawzi of being a fanatic when he speaks the truth and labels the narrations fabricated.
وعنه - عليه الصلاة والسلام - «إن آدم افتخر بي وأنا أفتخر برجل من أمتي اسمه نعمان وكنيته أبو حنيفة، هو سراج أمتي» وعنه - عليه الصلاة والسلام - «إن سائر الأنبياء يفتخرون بي وأنا أفتخر بأبي حنيفة، من أحبه فقد أحبني، ومن أبغضه فقد أبغضني»
وقول ابن الجوزي إنه موضوع تعصب

Indeed, Ibn Adam is proud of me and I am proud of a man from my Ummah whose name will be Nu'maan and his Kunya will be Abu Hanifah. He is the siraaJ of my Ummah.
Indeed, all of the Prophets are proud of me and I am proud of Abu Hanifah. He who loves him has loved me and he who hates him has hated me.
Reference(s):
Radd al-Mukhtaar
Page 52 Volume 1


Tell me. Muhammad ala' al-Diin Haskafi was an Imaam and Faqiih of your Madhab. He used those narrations. Are they weak and fabricated or will you live with your incorrect claim that the fuqahaa should be given precedence when accepting hadith? Do you accept and believe in those fabricated hadith he has placed in his book.

Do you want to see scanned copies of that as well or do you know full well I never speak without refernce and will back up anything I tell you?

The discussion was about the use of weak hadith by the Fuqahaa. You may go off on tangents. But I will remain on course even while rebutting your tangents.

You only tried to prove him weak in hadith but I hope you believe following statements also.

I haven't tried to prove anything. I wasn't even discussing him. I talked about the fuqahaa of your Madhab who used weak hadith for the funeral prayer to show you that fuqahaa use weak hadith since the discussion was about men's and women's prayer differences being based on weak hadith.

You brought him in. I did not. I have no need to discuss him. I only highlighted that when you called me a liar and jaahil it was the pot calling the kettle black because I had all the scanned copies. You, in contrast, have none. All you have is copy pastes from all over the web.

Tell me your hidden feelings
About this poor man?-

My hidden feelings? Poor man? Are you trying to win your case by calling upon sympathy?

Anyone who speaks about Diin opens himself up to criticism. Criticism by fellow Mujtahid Imaams and scholars of the disciplines of Diin.

You know why? Because it is not about protecting Abu Hanifah, or al-Shaafi'i, or Maalik. It is about protecting the Diin. The Diin comes first.

No one has any personal grudge against anyone. Everyone is out to protect the Diin. Remember that and act on it. Stop protecting individuals. Think of the Diin of Allaah.

"…Ahmad bin Hassan Tirmidhi quotes, 'I heard Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal say that Abu Hanifa is a liar". (Tarikh al Baghdad Volume 13 page 418)

You do not understand the language of the scholars of hadith. Hence, you think the word kadhdhaab means liar. It means, according to them, a liar, at times, and at other times one who makes mistakes.

It means the one who makes mistakes here. Once again please learn first.

As for the remaining quotes, once again you have placed them up without any scanned copies or chains of narrators. Unless you can do that there is nothing to discuss.

[azc]

First, let us discuss serious allegations

"Imam Malik said that Abu Hanifa was the worst of people and that it would have been easier for him to raise his sword against the Muslims".

"Imam Malik said that for the Muslims Abu Hanifa's Fitnah is more damaging than the Fitnah of Shaytan".

[ZeeshanParvez]

First, let us discuss serious allegations

"Imam Malik said that Abu Hanifa was the worst of people and that it would have been easier for him to raise his sword against the Muslims".

"Imam Malik said that for the Muslims Abu Hanifa's Fitnah is more damaging than the Fitnah of Shaytan".

Alright, let's discuss it though this is not thread for it.

Do you have the chains for that? Do you have a copy of where it is written? Though I could find it, I do not have time especially when you need to discuss it. It's only logical you provide the chain or the page where you read it.

[azc]

Alright, let's discuss it though this is not thread for it.

Do you have the chains for that? Do you have a copy of where it is written? Though I could find it, I do not have time especially when you need to discuss it. It's only logical you provide the chain or the page where you read it.

This thread has been derailed a long time back.

I heard a lecture of a Pakistani alhehadith scholar on YouTube. He quoted tarikh Baghdad (see post#122 almost same stuff was shared).

I simply want to know your opinion about these serious allegations.

[ZeeshanParvez]

This thread has been derailed a long time back.

I heard a lecture of a Pakistani alhehadith scholar on YouTube. He quoted tarikh Baghdad (see post#122 almost same stuff was shared).

I simply want to know your opinion about these serious allegations.

Remember, today the Ummah holds both Imaam Maalik and Imaam Abu Hanifah to be Mujtahid Imaams. That is a fact.

When one Mujtahid Imaam criticizes another, you cannot use the words "allegation" for that Mujtahid Imaam.

When you use the term allegation you say Imaam Maalik has alleged something to Imaam Abu Hanifah which is not true or is without proof.

Imaam Maalik, Imaam al-Shaafi'i, and Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal were known as the ahl al-Hadith at the time. They had severe differences with the ahl al-Ra'i.

Once you know this fact, you realize that these Imaams used strong terms against Abu Hanifah because he, in their view, opposed authentic hadith by means of his verdicts. Ibn Abd al-Barr clearly states this as follows:

وقد روي عن أبي حنيفة أنه كان يرد هذا الخبر، باعتباره إياه على أصوله، كسائر فعله في أخبار الآحاد: كان يعرضها على الأصول المجتمع عليها عنده، ويجتهد في قبولها أو ردها. فهذا أصله في أخبار الآحاد. وروي عنه أنه كان يقول في رد هذا الحديث: "أرأيت إن كانا في سفينة؟ أرأيت إن كانا في سجن أو قيد؟ كيف يفترقان؟ إذن فلا يصح بين هؤلاء بيع أبداً"! وهذا مما عيب به أبو حنيفة. وهو أكبر عيوبه وأشد ذنوبه عند أهل الحديث

[Paraphrase]

It has been narrated from Abu Hanifah that he would rebut this Hadith, like all the other single narrations, based on his reliance on his Usuul and would make Ijtihaad in accepting the single narrations or not accepting them.

It has been narrated from him [i.e. Abu Hanifah] that he would rebut this Hadith by saying: What do you think if they were in a ship or if they were in a prison. How will they separate. In that case the sale would not ever be permissible between them. And this is with what they found faults in Abu Hanifah and it is his biggest defect and most severe sin in the sight of the ahl al-Hadith.


So, you see the ahl al-Hadith had severe issues with him on the issue of single narrations ['akhbaar al-aahaad]. He rejected them if they went against his Usuul. They praised him where he deserved praise like his piety, honesty, and fiqh, but they were severe on him in regards to his weakness in hadith.


at-Tamhid Lima Fil-Muwatta Min al-Ma'ani Wal-Asanid
Volume 14 Page 13

Thus, these are not allegations. The Mujtahid Imaams had reasons and evidences to declare him weak in hadith.

But I do not see how this has any relevance to our topic at hand. You, like anyone else, know that a Madhab is not based on a single scholar. It is based on a host of scholars.

Abu Yusuf and Muhammad bin al-Hasan al-Shaybaani were his Companions who had a major say in the verdicts of the Madhab. They moved away from his sayings in a number of instances where they believed he went against a hadith. They sided with the majority in case of the 'asr prayer timing. They sided with the majority in case of the Witr being a Sunnah and not a Waajib.

But what this discussion shows is that die hard love for one individual never leads to objectivity. The Diin of Allaah has to be protected.

When you accuse the Imaams of Hadith like Imaam Maalik of making "allegations" or being "biased" what you are doing is saying that they toyed with the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) when they said Abu Hanifah was weak in hadith because the moment you declare a narrator weak a hadith cannot be used in legislation. To say someone is weak merely on personal grudges would mean they caused a part of the Sunnah to be lost simply because they had jealous.

The Imaams of Hadith were above that. And to blame them for being misinformed, biased, or anything else over one man is just fanaticism and a lack of objectivity.

[azc]

Remember, today the Ummah holds both Imaam Maalik and Imaam Abu Hanifah to be Mujtahid Imaams. That is a fact.When one Mujtahid Imaam criticizes another, you cannot use the words "allegation" for that Mujtahid Imaam.When you use the term allegation you say Imaam Maalik has alleged something to Imaam Abu Hanifah which is not true or is without proof.Imaam Maalik, Imaam al-Shaafi'i, and Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal were known as the ahl al-Hadith at the time. They had severe differences with the ahl al-Ra'i.Once you know this fact, you realize that these Imaams used strong terms against Abu Hanifah because he, in their view, opposed authentic hadith by means of his verdicts. Ibn Abd al-Barr clearly states this as follows:وقد روي عن أبي حنيفة أنه كان يرد هذا الخبر، باعتباره إياه على أصوله، كسائر فعله في أخبار الآحاد: كان يعرضها على الأصول المجتمع عليها عنده، ويجتهد في قبولها أو ردها. فهذا أصله في أخبار الآحاد. وروي عنه أنه كان يقول في رد هذا الحديث: "أرأيت إن كانا في سفينة؟ أرأيت إن كانا في سجن أو قيد؟ كيف يفترقان؟ إذن فلا يصح بين هؤلاء بيع أبداً"! وهذا مما عيب به أبو حنيفة. وهو أكبر عيوبه وأشد ذنوبه عند أهل الحديث[Paraphrase]It has been narrated from Abu Hanifah that he would rebut this Hadith, like all the other single narrations, based on his reliance on his Usuul and would make Ijtihaad in accepting the single narrations or not accepting them.It has been narrated from him [i.e. Abu Hanifah] that he would rebut this Hadith by saying: What do you think if they were in a ship or if they were in a prison. How will they separate. In that case the sale would not ever be permissible between them. And this is with what they found faults in Abu Hanifah and it is his biggest defect and most severe sin in the sight of the ahl al-Hadith.So, you see the ahl al-Hadith had severe issues with him on the issue of single narrations ['akhbaar al-aahaad]. He rejected them if they went against his Usuul. They praised him where he deserved praise like his piety, honesty, and fiqh, but they were severe on him in regards to his weakness in hadith.at-Tamhid Lima Fil-Muwatta Min al-Ma'ani Wal-AsanidVolume 14 Page 13Thus, these are not allegations. The Mujtahid Imaams had reasons and evidences to declare him weak in hadith.But I do not see how this has any relevance to our topic at hand. You, like anyone else, know that a Madhab is not based on a single scholar. It is based on a host of scholars.Abu Yusuf and Muhammad bin al-Hasan al-Shaybaani were his Companions who had a major say in the verdicts of the Madhab. They moved away from his sayings in a number of instances where they believed he went against a hadith. They sided with the majority in case of the 'asr prayer timing. They sided with the majority in case of the Witr being a Sunnah and not a Waajib.But what this discussion shows is that die hard love for one individual never leads to objectivity. The Diin of Allaah has to be protected.When you accuse the Imaams of Hadith like Imaam Maalik of making "allegations" or being "biased" what you are doing is saying that they toyed with the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) when they said Abu Hanifah was weak in hadith because the moment you declare a narrator weak a hadith cannot be used in legislation. To say someone is weak merely on personal grudges would mean they caused a part of the Sunnah to be lost simply because they had jealous.The Imaams of Hadith were above that. And to blame them for being misinformed, biased, or anything else over one man is just fanaticism and a lack of objectivity.

So you think that imam malik rh opined that his fitnah (?) was more damaging than fitnah of shaytan..???...

Since shaytan is the worst in creation so the imam surpassed even shaytan in spreading fitnah..???

[Serinity]

All of the 4 Imams were great scholars. :-) We all should follow Qur'aan and Sunnah ONLY, and we all know that the 4 madhabs, all of them, have the Correct Aqeedah of belief in Allah's Unity (Tawheed) and that worship is only for Allah.

The madhabs are not sects. Not all laymen can extract laws from the Qur'aan, that is why we have madhabs.

[azc]

All of the 4 Imams were great scholars. :-) We all should follow Qur'aan and Sunnah ONLY, and we all know that the 4 madhabs, all of them, have the Correct Aqeedah of belief in Allah's Unity (Tawheed) and that worship is only for Allah. The madhabs are not sects. Not all laymen can extract laws from the Qur'aan, that is why we have madhabs.

read post # 122, ponder, then comment

[azc]

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr narrates: ‘Abd al Rahman ibn Yahya narrated to us: Ahmad ibn Sa‘id narrated to us: Abu Sa‘id ibn al-A‘rabi narrated to is: ‘Abbas ibn Muhammad al-Duri narrated to us: I heard Yahya ibn Ma‘in say: “Our companions have gone overboard in [their bias] against Abu Hanifah and his companions.” It was said to him: “Would Abu Hanifah lie?” He said “He was nobler than that.” (Jami‘ Bayan al-‘Ilm wa Fadlih, Abu al-Ashbal al-Zuhayri ed., p. 1081) The editor Abu al-Ashbal al-Zuhayri says “It’s isnad is sahih.” This indicates the muhaddithun had a bias against Abu Hanifah and his students due to what they perceived as excessive issuance of rulings based on opinion, so their criticism should be taken with precaution. Hafiz Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (d. 463 H) wrote: “Those who narrated from Abu Hanifah, and declared him trustworthy, and praised him, are more than those who criticised him; and those who criticised him from the scholars of hadith, most of what they blamed him for is immersion in juristic opinion, analogy and irja’ [all of which are invalid criticisms].” (Jami‘ Bayan al-‘Ilm wa Fadlih, quoted in the footnotes to al-Intiqa’ fi Fada’il al-A’immat al-Thalathah, p. 185)

[azc]

So you think that imam malik rh opined that his fitnah (?) was more damaging than fitnah of shaytan..???...

Since shaytan is the worst in creation so the imam surpassed even shaytan in spreading fitnah..???

I believe that someone else had attributed these statements to imam Malik rh. He could never comment in such disgusting way.

[ZeeshanParvez]

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr narrates: ‘Abd al Rahman ibn Yahya narrated to us: Ahmad ibn Sa‘id narrated to us: Abu Sa‘id ibn al-A‘rabi narrated to is: ‘Abbas ibn Muhammad al-Duri narrated to us: I heard Yahya ibn Ma‘in say: “Our companions have gone overboard in [their bias] against Abu Hanifah and his companions.” It was said to him: “Would Abu Hanifah lie?” He said “He was nobler than that.” (Jami‘ Bayan al-‘Ilm wa Fadlih, Abu al-Ashbal al-Zuhayri ed., p. 1081) The editor Abu al-Ashbal al-Zuhayri says “It’s isnad is sahih.” This indicates the muhaddithun had a bias against Abu Hanifah and his students due to what they perceived as excessive issuance of rulings based on opinion, so their criticism should be taken with precaution. Hafiz Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (d. 463 H) wrote: “Those who narrated from Abu Hanifah, and declared him trustworthy, and praised him, are more than those who criticised him; and those who criticised him from the scholars of hadith, most of what they blamed him for is immersion in juristic opinion, analogy and irja’ [all of which are invalid criticisms].” (Jami‘ Bayan al-‘Ilm wa Fadlih, quoted in the footnotes to al-Intiqa’ fi Fada’il al-A’immat al-Thalathah, p. 185)

Sheikh Muhammad al-'Amiin has already dealt with what you have mentioned. As a matter of fact, he has said that the ahnaaf actually hide the narrations from Yahyaa bin Ma'iin in which he declared Abu Hanifah weak in hadith.

وقد جاء عن ابن معين وابن المديني تضعيفها لأبي حنيفة، وهو ما يخفيه الأحناف ولا يذكرونه! وإليكم كلامهما:

You, my dear, have proved him right by quoting only the quote which suits you. Let me add balance to the discussion by quoting the other quotes.

Why do you ahnaaf hide the facts?




قال ابن أبي مريم –كما في الكامل لابن عدي (8|236)–: سألت يحيى بن معين عن أبي حنيفة، فقال: «لا يكتب حديثه»

I asked Ibn Ma'iin about Abu Hanifah: He said: His hadith are not to be written

وقال محمد بن عثمان بن أبي شيبة –كما في الضعفاء للعقيلي (4|285)–: سمعت يحيى بن معين وسئل عن أبي حنيفة، قال: «كان يضعف في الحديث»

I heard Yahyaa bin Ma'iin and he was asked Abu Hanifah: He said: He was weak in hadith

وقال محمد بن حماد المقرئ –كما في تاريخ بغداد (13|445)–: وسألت يحيى بن معين عن أبي حنيفة، فقال: «وإيش كان عند أبي حنيفة من الحديث حتى تسأل عنه؟!»

I asked Yahyaa bin Ma'iin about Abu Hanifah thereupon he said: What did Abu Hanifah have of hadith that you ask about him?

[azc]

The Marfu‘ Narrations of Abu Hanifah from the Musannaf of Ibn Abi Shaybah

1. Ibn Abi Shaybah narrates: ‘Abbad ibn al-‘Awwam narrated to us from Abu Hanifah from Ibrahim ibn Muhammad ibn al-Muntashir from Anas ibn Malik: He said: “No one ever sat with Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and grant him peace) and then stood up until he stood up.” (no. 26182, vol. 13:169-70)

2. Ibn Abi Shaybah narrates: Abu Mu‘awiyah narrated to us from Abu Hanifah from ‘Alqamah ibn Marthad from Ibn Buraydah from his father, he said: When Ma‘iz was stoned, they said: “O Messenger of Allah! What shall we do with him?” He said: “Do with him as you do with your dead, of bathing, shrouding, perfuming and praying over him.” (no. 11124, vol. 7:115)

Some good articles on this great imam. Noble users can see this link.
https://notesonalimamalazam.wordpres...n-abi-shaybah/

[ZeeshanParvez]

In Tarikh al Baghdad Volume 13 page 392, we read:

"Imam Malik said that for the Muslims Abu Hanifa's Fitnah is more damaging than the Fitnah of Shaytan".

Azc this is very disappointing. I cannot hold an intellectual discussion with you. You copy paste things from the web. That one seems to be from this Shia website.

You didn't even check up the chain of narrators. Did you do this to put Imaam Maalik in bad light? Or did you do it in your zeal to defend your Imaam by diverting the audiences attention?

Or do you simply lack the tools for research and just like to type out whatever you can get your hands on?

Here is a screen shot of the quote and the commentary about the chain of narrators by the MuhaQQiQ.

Attachment 6144

Quite clearly you cannot discuss a subject intellectually because you do not have the skills to research. I will not be taking any part in any discussion with you from now on given that you have no idea what you talk about. And the worst part is that you take things from Shia websites without verifying them and then attribute them to the ahl al-Hadith saying they say it all the while wanting unity with a sect which hates your Imaam.

Astagfirullah.

[azc]

Azc this is very disappointing. I cannot hold an intellectual discussion with you. You copy paste things from the web. That one seems to be from this Shia website.

You didn't even check up the chain of narrators. Did you do this to put Imaam Maalik in bad light? Or did you do it in your zeal to defend your Imaam by diverting the audiences attention?

Or do you simply lack the tools for research and just like to type out whatever you can get your hands on?

Here is a screen shot of the quote and the commentary about the chain of narrators by the MuhaQQiQ.

Attachment 6144

Quite clearly you cannot discuss a subject intellectually because you do not have the skills to research. I will not be taking any part in any discussion with you from now on given that you have no idea what you talk about. And the worst part is that you take things from Shia websites without verifying them and then attribute them to the ahl al-Hadith saying they say it all the while wanting unity with a sect which hates your Imaam.

Astagfirullah .

Yes, it's good for you if you keep on saying "astaghfirullah"

See other link I've given , if you wish.

In sha Allah, I WIll take care not to waste my time with you in future

[AbdurRahman.]

I am sorry to break it to you, but he has been declared weak in hadeeth by the majority of muhadditheen. If you so want we can discuss this and I can prove what I have said.

sure bro please provide proof

here is an explanation of the 'weak hadith' in hanafi madhab


it is not necessary that the saheeh (authentic) ahadith are found only in bukhari and muslim.the authenticity of a hadith depends on its line of transmission and the principles of ahadith.hundreds of scholars have collected ahadith apart from bukhari and muslim and every hadith that meets the standard is authentic. sometimes, a hadith in any other book outranks the standard of bukhari and muslim, like ibn majah which is otherwise ranked sixth among the saheeh six books. ...

the differences of opinion that we see among the mujtahids is primarily because the mannerof deduction of each of them varies. some rely on the sanad when they have to choose from ahadith of different apparent conclusions. some others reconcile the ahadith while some mujtahids choose the hadith on which the sahabah conducted themselves. so, every mujtahidhas a different approach and none of them can be accused of neglecting the authentic ahadith. generally, imam abu hanifah tried to reconcile the ahadith and to observe all of them as far as possible. he even relied on weak ahadith if there was no conflicting report, notwithstanding disagreement with qiyas, for example, ablution is nullified by laughing, obligatory nature ofzakah on honey, and so on.(3) there is ijtihad on deciding whether a hadith is sound or weak. and different imams havedifferent results. thus, imam abu hanifah may regard a hadith worth following while another mujtahid may c1assifi it as weak.(4) often a hadith was received by imam abu hanifah with a sound line of transmission, but a narrator after him may turn out to be weak, so the mujtahids after him who get the hadith may reject it. hence, he cannot be blamed for that.(5)

imam abu hanifah & knowledge of hadith

he is also accused of having few ahadith, or a weak knowledge of hadith. this baseless accusation follows from lack of proper knowledge and prejudice. in fact, greatscholars agreed that he was excellent in the science of fiqh and the science of hadith too. theyare not only the hanafi ulama but also ulama of other schools of thought. we present remarks of some of them.

1. ibn jurayj was a great scholar of hadith and fiqh. imam shafee’s mazhab derives mostly fromhim. ibn hajar said about him that when he learnt of imam abu hanifah’s death he was greatly pained and said:(what a knowledge has departed!) (tahzeeb al-tahzeeb v1 450)

2. makki ibn ibrahim was a teacher of imam bukhari he was a student of imam abu hanifah.his words about him are quoted by hafiz muzzi in tahzeeb ul-kamal:“he was the greatest scholar of his times.” (marginal notes tahzeeb al-tahzeeb v1 451) we must remember that the predecessors spoke of ilm (knowledge) to imply knowledge of hadith. so these testimonies are concerning his knowledge of hadith.

3. sha’bah ibn al-hujjah was called the ameer ul-mu’mineen in hadith. he was the first imamknown for examining the ahadith narrators critically. he said:“by allah! he was the most understanding and of an excellent memory.”when he learnt of imam abu hanifah’s death, he said:“the light of knowledge from kufah has extinguished. these people will not find a man likehim.” (al-khayrat ul-hasanat p32)

4. imam abu dawood said:“indeed abu hanifah was an imam!” (tazkirat ul-huffaz v1 p160)

5. yahya ibn mu’een was an imam of critical examination, he said:further, he quotes yahya ibn sa’eed al-quttan as saying:“we acted on many of imam abu hanifah’s sayings.” (tahzeeb at-tahzeeb v10 p450)to a question he said once:“yes, he is trustworthy, yes, trustworthy.” (manaqib al-imam al-azam v1 p192)

there are many other such quotations.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/258101696...owing-a-madhab

brother i will urge you to go into that link and read last two chapters on this issue; there is far more evidences that the great scholars have verified imam abu hanifa and he was not weak in hadith

[Linkdeutscher]

Non of this actually makes any sense unless your stating things for the sake of argumentation.

The fact that he was a mujtahid is common amongst us right?

Or do you believe he was not one?

[Indefinable]

lol i know linkdeutcher!; he's from ummah forum but i'll keep my identity secret! :D

he is a die hard salafi!; he even has 'wahhabi' on his avatar over there!

Ah.

It is always unnerving when others know you, but you don't know them.

[AbdurRahman.]

Ah.

It is always unnerving when others know you, but you don't know them.

ok i'll tell you who i am!!!!!

i am, er i am one of your worst enemies on ummah forum really so better not tell! :Emoji46::Emoji46::Emoji46:

[Indefinable]

ok i'll tell you who i am!!!!!

i am, er i am one of your worst enemies on ummah forum really so better not tell! :Emoji46::Emoji46::Emoji46:

I don't have enemies on UF.

[anatolian]

So all those 8 pages of discussion is for if there is difference between postures of men and women in Salah?