Decline of the Ottoman Empire

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Very interesting.

[Simple_Person]

Not to forget the weakest empire when we talk about Islamic principles compared to other Islamic Empires. This shows again ..you go away from Islamic principles Allah will humiliate you. They came..they embraced Islam..but slowly doing this that were not Islamic and in the end this giving way to self destruct.

Very interesting video.

[Serinity]

:salam:

Sad how they declined.

I can't wait to see the decline of America because of what they do.

Allahu alam.

[Simple_Person]

:salam:

Sad how they declined.

I can't wait to see the decline of America because of what they do.

Allahu alam.

Brother, do be VERY careful what you are saying. Because Ottoman empire was on a TOTALLY different level as US. When US collapses, the world collapses. Based on what? Right now, the US Dollar is seen as a international currency. In the past it was backed by gold, so even if the currency would be harmed, there is always the backup of gold making it still not risky. Right now it is backed up by "thin air". If the currency collapses, well good luck collecting thin air.

I am myself NOT a economic analyst and don't know what they know, but i have basic brain funcitonality and i see things going the wrong way.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/10/there...mist-says.html


Dollar - British Pound - (1971 - 2016)

Euro - Dollar - (2003- 2017)

The question is, the economic collapse back in 2008 has happened that was already almost 9 years ago. HOW come it is still in decline? The MOST scary thing is, NOBODY is talking about, one has to do his own research. I mean me, just google for it in less than 10 minutes you find the data.

You judge this yourself.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[anatolian]

The decline of the Ottoman Empire was the decline of the Islamic Union. Today Muslims dont have such a Union, good or bad. But any decline of the American Empire will be the decline of their socio-economic hegemonia as well. Its true that all the world economies are dependant on Dollar and Euro and Euro is on Dollar indirectly but the question, is it a good thing? Better we go on like that or should we get rid off Dolar's hegemonia? If you were able to creat your independent economies you would not be effected by any Dollar based crisis

America and Ottoman Empire cannot be confused. They had different motivations and goals but you can compare it to the Roman Empire. American Empire is the new Roman Empire with all their intentions, motivations and goals.

[Simple_Person]

The decline of the Ottoman Empire was the decline of the Islamic Union. Today Muslims dont have such a Union, good or bad. But any decline of the American Empire will be the decline of their socio-economic hegemonia as well. Its true that all the world economies are dependant on Dollar and Euro and Euro is on Dollar indirectly but the question, is it a good thing? Better we go on like that or should we get rid off Dolar's hegemonia? If you were able to creat your independent economies you would not be effected by any Dollar based crisis

To build something a foundation first needs to be created. Paper money in Islam is NOT money. The world today is filled with corruption of all kind of corrupt ideas from business ideas to entertainment to what is food now a days and what are moral values. So far looking at it because there are SOO MANY people out there that would want to uphold this corrupt view, i so far can only conclude destruction needs to take place that wipes out A LOT of people. Because it is nearly impossible to have many people let go of habits that destroy their own self as well as society as a whole.

So to go to gold and silver, also moral values need to be changed, but also the mentality of the people. This all starts with truly worship of Allah. When one is convinced of that fact, all the rest becomes worthless in ones eyes and one can easily let go of things that drive people now a days. (Greed, lust, jealousy, envy, hatred etc.). However there are people in high positions that control the masses to follow certain way. These people need to be getting rid of so to say. Whatever happens a economic collapse is inevitable based on the current data. That is also the start of chaos and anarchy especially in countries where people ONLY think of themselves.

This is a good music video that shows the current way of things going on and if that is not dajjal, then i am blind as blind can be. People in flocks joining him..against corruption and those world leaders etc..



Not even hiding it that he is dajjal =_=!..

[Serinity]

:salam:

I'd definitely want an Islamic State. We'll just establish our own currency. We should establish the worship of one God, Allah :swt: . Unless we unite upon Tawheed, we won't succeed.

Allahu alam.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Rare video from the Ottoman empire

[anatolian]

This is a good music video that shows the current way of things going on and if that is not dajjal, then i am blind as blind can be. People in flocks joining him..against corruption and those world leaders etc..

World is ruled by some gun barons. They are the same people who provide guns to all opposing militarist groups all over the World. Dollar economy is based on two things, oil and gun. They shoot two birds with one rock by promoting those conflicts in the oil rich regions.

[anatolian]

Tribute to the State with some scenes from WW1, their final battle..

[Sho Islam]

When we look at our history we see many great achievements that we have accomplished in the past as well as how we fell from grace!

I do however feel that we forget that the Islamic empires/Caliphates of the past catered not just for Muslims but non Muslims too, where Christian and Jewish communities successfully lived side by side with Muslims.

When we look at the world today and the wealthy countries in particular being dependent upon a financial system built on greed doused match sticks,it won't be long before they go up in flames and take their followers with them.

I personally don't think that we should merely reminisce about the old days rather it is imperative that we return to what made us and our fellow non Muslims great, allowed us to live in harmony with one another, bringing economic justice to many and not line the pockets of the few.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

A follow up video

History of the Turkish military’s role in politics

[azc]

Decline of ottoman empire caused the decline of this ummah.

So sad.

[Simple_Person]

Decline of ottoman empire caused the decline of this ummah.

So sad.

I believe the decline of the Ummah already began somewhere JUST before the mongol invasion of Baghdad. Such big destruction send by Allah are not just "because"..it has a reason. If we look and read about those times..people were all about knowledge and worldly riches..

"If you can't eat it..why did you hoard it (gold)"



Tariq ibn Shihab reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Verily, we were a disgraceful people and Allah honored us with Islam. If we seek honor from anything besides that with which Allah has honored us, then Allah will disgrace us.”

source used: http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com...be-humiliated/

[Scimitar]

Decline of ottoman empire caused the decline of this ummah.

So sad.

Rubbish.

The Ottoman empire was a Kingship - passed down from father to son, even if that son was incapable of ruling. What you crying about?

The Brits, French and Yanks did this, and they used the Ottoman empire to clash with the Arabs which showed one thing only - that both the Arabs and the Turks were mutually stupid to fall for it - but fall they did because of the promise of "modernity" - nothing more, nothing less.

Scimi

[azc]

I believe the decline of the Ummah already began somewhere JUST before the mongol invasion of Baghdad. Such big destruction send by Allah are not just "because"..it has a reason. If we look and read about those times..people were all about knowledge and worldly riches..

"If you can't eat it..why did you hoard it (gold)"



Tariq ibn Shihab reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Verily, we were a disgraceful people and Allah honored us with Islam. If we seek honor from anything besides that with which Allah has honored us, then Allah will disgrace us.”

source used: http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com...be-humiliated/

Indeed, Mongols destroyed Baghdad and killed Muslims on large scale but their later generations became Muslims and helped islamic empire to regain the lost glory.

The conversion of Mongols was the last largest event of embracing Islam in wholesale.

We don't see another incident of a while community ever converted to Islam after it.

As far as Ottoman empire is concerned they carved a niche in the Islamic history. As long as it remained intact, successfully occupied a large part of the world as a powerful united country till first world war.

I don't know if I've understood history correctly

[azc]

Rubbish.

The Ottoman empire was a Kingship - passed down from father to son, even if that son was incapable of ruling. What you crying about?

The Brits, French and Yanks did this, and they used the Ottoman empire to clash with the Arabs which showed one thing only - that both the Arabs and the Turks were mutually stupid to fall for it - but fall they did because of the promise of "modernity" - nothing more, nothing less.

Scimi

But bro, as long as they remained in power this ummah had its own honour. We were united and now despite being so many countries even blood of Muslims has no importance.

Nobody says they were very good people.
But...
If they had won ww1 , subcontinent would have been a united Muslim country.

[Scimitar]

But bro, as long as they remained in power this ummah had its own honour. We were united and now despite being so many countries even blood of Muslims has no importance.

Nobody says they were very good people.
But...
If they had won ww1 , subcontinent would have been a united Muslim country.

still nonsense,

it was Qadr Allah that these tyrant kings were overthrown! How can you claim that they were great when they practiced enslavement when there was no war? Jannisary tactics when there is no compulsion in religion?

They HAD to be punished!

I absolutely loathe the Ottomans after comparatively researching and understanding for myself the truth you will not even entertain.

The prophet pbuh said the first 30 years after his demise was the rule of khaliphs who would be rightly guided (the salaf us saliheen), after that would come the rule of kings (deplorable) and after that the rule of tyrants (hated)... and these Ottomans were tyrants!

You speak with zeal and little understanding.

The Ottomans were fail!

Scimi

[Simple_Person]

But bro, as long as they remained in power this ummah had its own honour. We were united and now despite being so many countries even blood of Muslims has no importance.

Nobody says they were very good people.
But...
If they had won ww1 , subcontinent would have been a united Muslim country.

United? What I know was that the Kurds were fighting them what I also know was that other people besides Kurds were very dissatisfied under their rule. That is why the Arabs worked with the west to overthrow them.

The Orthodox Christianity hated them because of their mentality of wanting to conquer things. As Constantinople with that Hagia Sophia.

So like I said the decline of the Ummah began just before the mongol invasion of Baghdad. The art is for us as individuals to learn from what has happened and follow the path of Allah. If not, for sure He will humiliate us also. This even has happened right now in the Middle East as Muslims took pride in culture and did wrong to their own family members by forcing marriages or by taking pride as Muslims with their mouths but not by action or defending dictators or throwing away food or taking pride in nationalism etc.etc. To be honest I do not even feel sorry for what is happening to the Ummah because we are fools by not wanting to follow path of Allah. We have deserved this.

[anatolian]

still nonsense,

it was Qadr Allah that these tyrant kings were overthrown! How can you claim that they were great when they practiced enslavement when there was no war? Jannisary tactics when there is no compulsion in religion?

They HAD to be punished!

I absolutely loathe the Ottomans after comparatively researching and understanding for myself the truth you will not even entertain.

The prophet pbuh said the first 30 years after his demise was the rule of khaliphs who would be rightly guided (the salaf us saliheen), after that would come the rule of kings (deplorable) and after that the rule of tyrants (hated)... and these Ottomans were tyrants!

You speak with zeal and little understanding.

The Ottomans were fail!

Scimi

Inshallah you also have an explanation for why Allah "waited" more than 500 years to punish them for the reasons you mention since the janissary system was formed in the late 14th c. but the State collopsed in the early 20th c.? Even the jannisary system was abolished a hundred year before the collopse of the Ottoman Empire. It is also interesting that you mentioned them as kings at first but later you associated them with the tyirannical rulers part of the above hadith.

[anatolian]

United? What I know was that the Kurds were fighting them what I also know was that other people besides Kurds were very dissatisfied under their rule. That is why the Arabs worked with the west to overthrow them.

The Orthodox Christianity hated them because of their mentality of wanting to conquer things. As Constantinople with that Hagia Sophia.

So like I said the decline of the Ummah began just before the mongol invasion of Baghdad. The art is for us as individuals to learn from what has happened and follow the path of Allah. If not, for sure He will humiliate us also. This even has happened right now in the Middle East as Muslims took pride in culture and did wrong to their own family members by forcing marriages or by taking pride as Muslims with their mouths but not by action or defending dictators or throwing away food or taking pride in nationalism etc.etc. To be honest I do not even feel sorry for what is happening to the Ummah because we are fools by not wanting to follow path of Allah. We have deserved this.

So Ottomans were bad because Kurds were dissatisfied under their rule? :) Funny. But that's not historically true either. Kurds were ok with the Ottoman rule most of the time.

[Simple_Person]

So Ottomans were bad because Kurds were dissatisfied under their rule? :) Funny. But that's not historically true either. Kurds were ok with the Ottoman rule most of the time.

No read the complete context. That other brother said ..Muslims were "united", i said no i know of Kurds fighting the Ottomans..in other words there was no speaking of being united. Also indeed Kurds have also fought with the Ottomans, but that doesn't mean people (Muslims in general) were united. Arabs we also were not satisfied as western powers exploited this dissatisfaction in fighting against the Ottoman empire.

That being said i am not sure how you say "historically not true"..so you are saying all the things Kurds have been telling is they were lying..and Muslims were very satisfied with Ottoman rule from the beginning till the end? Because that is what you are pointing to.

[anatolian]

No read the complete context. That other brother said ..Muslims were "united", i said no i know of Kurds fighting the Ottomans..in other words there was no speaking of being united. Also indeed Kurds have also fought with the Ottomans, but that doesn't mean people (Muslims in general) were united. Arabs we also were not satisfied as western powers exploited this dissatisfaction in fighting against the Ottoman empire.

That being said i am not sure how you say "historically not true"..so you are saying all the things Kurds have been telling is they were lying..and Muslims were very satisfied with Ottoman rule from the beginning till the end? Because that is what you are pointing to.

There might have been some conflicts, I don't know every incident in the Ottoman history but yes Kurds as a people were OK most of the time with the State during more than 400 years of rule.

[Simple_Person]

There might have been some conflicts, I don't know every incident in the Ottoman history but yes Kurds as a people were OK most of the time with the State during more than 400 years of rule.

I do know that in the i believe last 100 year or 50 years of the Ottoman rule Kurds were dissatisfied. As often Kurds have even songs made of those battles. The Arabs off course also clear that they objected the Ottoman rule by the uprising of them.

The Ottoman empire was the last and the weakest of all the Islamic Caliphates when we talk about religious conquest. Their vision was rather towards conquering instead of religious. As this conquering ambitions we can historically confirm.

[azc]

United? What I know was that the Kurds were fighting them what I also know was that other people besides Kurds were very dissatisfied under their rule. That is why the Arabs worked with the west to overthrow them.

The Orthodox Christianity hated them because of their mentality of wanting to conquer things. As Constantinople with that Hagia Sophia.

So like I said the decline of the Ummah began just before the mongol invasion of Baghdad. The art is for us as individuals to learn from what has happened and follow the path of Allah. If not, for sure He will humiliate us also. This even has happened right now in the Middle East as Muslims took pride in culture and did wrong to their own family members by forcing marriages or by taking pride as Muslims with their mouths but not by action or defending dictators or throwing away food or taking pride in nationalism etc.etc. To be honest I do not even feel sorry for what is happening to the Ummah because we are fools by not wanting to follow path of Allah. We have deserved this.

You focus on their weaknesses and I zero in on backwash of their decline.

[azc]

No read the complete context. That other brother said ..Muslims were "united", i said no i know of Kurds fighting the Ottomans..in other words there was no speaking of being united. Also indeed Kurds have also fought with the Ottomans, but that doesn't mean people (Muslims in general) were united. Arabs we also were not satisfied as western powers exploited this dissatisfaction in fighting against the Ottoman empire.

That being said i am not sure how you say "historically not true"..so you are saying all the things Kurds have been telling is they were lying..and Muslims were very satisfied with Ottoman rule from the beginning till the end? Because that is what you are pointing to.

Bro, where did I say they're united....?

[Simple_Person]

You focus on their weaknesses and I zero in on backwash of their decline.

Me focusing on their weakness? ..dude, as a Muslim this weakness is the MOST important that one MUST NOT have. You think conquering is considered "strength"?? Allah elevates us and Allah humiliates us..and we ONLY are elevated if we follow the path that Allah has made clear.

This weakness is the ONLY thing if you say i am a Muslim that is important to NOT have.

Turks are too proud and look at things from a conquering perspective. Yes conquering MUST take place..but that is conquering of the heart..not of the land by force. Islam is conquering of the heart. This Turks OFTEN FAIL to understand it.

[Simple_Person]

Bro, where did I say they're united....?

Your words

But bro, as long as they remained in power this ummah had its own honour. We were united and now despite being so many countries even blood of Muslims has no importance.

Nobody says they were very good people.
But...
If they had won ww1 , subcontinent would have been a united Muslim country.

[azc]

Your words

What I said is related to this "ummah", not ottoman empire.

We had our own place in the world but after its decline what condition of ummah in the world is, isn't hidden to us.

[azc]

Me focusing on their weakness? ..dude, as a Muslim this weakness is the MOST important that one MUST NOT have. You think conquering is considered "strength"?? Allah elevates us and Allah humiliates us..and we ONLY are elevated if we follow the path that Allah has made clear.

This weakness is the ONLY thing if you say i am a Muslim that is important to NOT have.

Turks are too proud and look at things from a conquering perspective. Yes conquering MUST take place..but that is conquering of the heart..not of the land by force. Islam is conquering of the heart. This Turks OFTEN FAIL to understand it.

Despite all their weaknesses the ulama would pray for their victory in war, moreover they appealed the Muslim to donate for them.

[Simple_Person]

What I said is related to this "ummah", not ottoman empire.

We had our own place in the world but after its decline what condition of ummah in the world is, isn't hidden to us.

You said the Ummah was united under the Ottoman Empire..that is how i understood it and i believe that is what you also said..however that still is not true.

[Simple_Person]

Despite all their weaknesses the ulama would pray for their victory in war, moreover they appealed the Muslim to donate for them.

These days there are also Ulama that pray for certain people..that doesn't make them legit you know. Just because somebody is a scholar and how he/she looks at a certain person doesn't make that person suddenly legit.

[azc]

These days there are also Ulama that pray for certain people..that doesn't make them legit you know. Just because somebody is a scholar and how he/she looks at a certain person doesn't make that person suddenly legit.

It refers to almost all scholars of last century.

[Simple_Person]

It refers to almost all scholars of last century.

Ottoman dreams to conquer lands and even if a scholar sooo highly respected supports this conquest, to me he is worthless even if he has given such so many benefits to the people. For me Ulama do not have a "special" status even if they fall in category of ulama if they promote something un-islamic.

This is a quote of Abu Bakr (ra)

I have been given the authority over you, and I am not the best of you. If I do well, help me; and if I do wrong, set me right. Sincere regard for truth.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/q...akr219631.html

In other words the wisdom in this tells us to NOT FOLLOW blindly. Rather every action judge it looking at what Islam finds permissible and what not.

Some indeed say unity should be persevered, however preserving unity and praising NON-Islamic actions are totally different things. However i am kind of curious where you find this "proof" that the ulama praised or supported the actions of the Ottomans and in which times.

I will be waiting for the historical records/narrations of those scholars in'sha'Allah.

[azc]

Ottoman dreams to conquer lands and even if a scholar sooo highly respected supports this conquest, to me he is worthless even if he has given such so many benefits to the people. For me Ulama do not have a "special" status even if they fall in category of ulama if they promote something un-islamic.

This is a quote of Abu Bakr (ra)



In other words the wisdom in this tells us to NOT FOLLOW blindly. Rather every action judge it looking at what Islam finds permissible and what not.

Some indeed say unity should be persevered, however preserving unity and praising NON-Islamic actions are totally different things. However i am kind of curious where you find this "proof" that the ulama praised or supported the actions of the Ottomans and in which times.

I will be waiting for the historical records/narrations of those scholars in'sha'Allah.

All this is written in Urdu books....

[Simple_Person]

All this is written in Urdu books....

=_=!.. English speaking guy..(me). Anyways, for the sake of the argument i say "i believe you", but still that doesn't take away that one cannot choose unity above corruption. Because look at pre-mongol invasion of Baghdad. Was there unity among Muslims? Yes there was..but still destruction came. Unity is important when the Ummah is on the right path, so for the sake of unity one does not argue about something. However when something is done that goes against Islamic principles..news things will creep in to that are also not according to Islamic principles. With that comes the destruction of the Ummah.

There was i believe a story of a people that Allah had send a angel to destroy them. The angel said to Allah, "ya, Allah there is still a believer among them", Allah replying "start with him"(the destruction). In other words, there might be unity, but when corruption rules the Ummah..then unity is useless as Allah's punishment is coming.

[azc]

=_=!.. English speaking guy..(me). Anyways, for the sake of the argument i say "i believe you", but still that doesn't take away that one cannot choose unity above corruption. Because look at pre-mongol invasion of Baghdad. Was there unity among Muslims? Yes there was..but still destruction came. Unity is important when the Ummah is on the right path, so for the sake of unity one does not argue about something. However when something is done that goes against Islamic principles..news things will creep in to that are also not according to Islamic principles. With that comes the destruction of the Ummah.

There was i believe a story of a people that Allah had send a angel to destroy them. The angel said to Allah, "ya, Allah there is still a believer among them", Allah replying "start with him"(the destruction). In other words, there might be unity, but when corruption rules the Ummah..then unity is useless as Allah's punishment is coming.

When unity in ummah is discussed, always it refers to majority of ummah but if it's considered as 100% unity then it's almost impossible.

In the entire Islamic history (excluding the era of Hz khulafa e rashideen ra) no period can be cited as such.

I'm not a fan of ottoman empire, nor am interested to defend their weaknesses but what I've understood is that after their decline this ummah has been undergoing perdition and different kind of trials and tribulations.

[azc]

Another thread on this topic

Ottoman Collapse; Fall of the Ummah.

[Simple_Person]

When unity in ummah is discussed, always it refers to majority of ummah but if it's considered as 100% unity then it's almost impossible.

In the entire Islamic history (excluding the era of Hz khulafa e rashideen ra) no period can be cited as such.

I'm not a fan of ottoman empire, nor am interested to defend their weaknesses but what I've understood is that after their decline this ummah has been undergoing perdition and different kind of trials and tribulations.

Like i believe in a earlier comment said, the decline isn't unity, the decline is going away from the path of Allah. Look at many Muslims majority countries..they call themselves Muslims and as a artificial country are united under nationalism and say they are Muslims but are far away from Islam.

From Pakistan to Indonesia..to Morocco to Saudi etc.. No one right now is proud of the Islam being practiced in the country they are living. Some people dare to say about some gulf states, however western people have infected those places like cockroaches. What i mean by this is they have brought their bad habits with them ..alcohol, disco, prostitution..etc.

[azc]

Like i believe in a earlier comment said, the decline isn't unity, the decline is going away from the path of Allah. Look at many Muslims majority countries..they call themselves Muslims and as a artificial country are united under nationalism and say they are Muslims but are far away from Islam.

From Pakistan to Indonesia..to Morocco to Saudi etc.. No one right now is proud of the Islam being practiced in the country they are living. Some people dare to say about some gulf states, however western people have infected those places like cockroaches. What i mean by this is they have brought their bad habits with them ..alcohol, disco, prostitution..etc.

Two points, which you have misunderstopd are to be clarified to you.

a: If the people are silent on the corruption of the ruling class, it doesn't mean they're "united" on their corruption

b: If the kingdom or empire comes to an end, it doesn't mean that in all cases it's the punishment by Allah swt.

[Simple_Person]

Two points, which you have misunderstopd are to be clarified to you.

a: If the people are silent on the corruption of the ruling class, it doesn't mean they're "united" on their corruption

b: If the kingdom or empire comes to an end, it doesn't mean that in all cases it's the punishment by Allah swt.

A: In a previous comment i stated this..

"There was i believe a story of a people that Allah had send a angel to destroy them. The angel said to Allah, "ya, Allah there is still a believer among them", Allah replying "start with him"(the destruction). In other words, there might be unity, but when corruption rules the Ummah..then unity is useless as Allah's punishment is coming."

In other words a Muslim MUST speak up. Or else that is the weakest form of imaan..if he only rejects it with his heart. When not speaking up, the corruption doesn't end.

"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." Qur'an 2:191

Why would Allah say "fitna is worse than killing"? So in other words if you do not speak up and let corruption go on..you are doing even more harm.

B: Do give me examples of them. Because looking at the Qur'an the stories Allah has told us about every time it was due punishment. That being said to give some better examples. The Roman empire, they practiced the usual things of lack of shame, economic corruption, moral corruption..over spending/consumption... In other words a lot of similarities Allah has given us already with the stories of previous people.

The blessing of a empire lies in walking the straight path. What do i mean by this? Our actions will ALWAYS get a natural reaction. Because we know from some hadith that nature reacts to our actions as one i believe when Aisha(ra) did say something that would be considered as a insult and Rasullah(saws) saying that how small that word to her is, it could turn the whole ocean in to salty i believe.

So an empire coming to their end is because of Allah, not because..JUST BECAUSE.

[azc]

A: In a previous comment i stated this..

"There was i believe a story of a people that Allah had send a angel to destroy them. The angel said to Allah, "ya, Allah there is still a believer among them", Allah replying "start with him"(the destruction). In other words, there might be unity, but when corruption rules the Ummah..then unity is useless as Allah's punishment is coming."

In other words a Muslim MUST speak up. Or else that is the weakest form of imaan..if he only rejects it with his heart. When not speaking up, the corruption doesn't end.

"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." Qur'an 2:191

Why would Allah say "fitna is worse than killing"? So in other words if you do not speak up and let corruption go on..you are doing even more harm.

B: Do give me examples of them. Because looking at the Qur'an the stories Allah has told us about every time it was due punishment. That being said to give some better examples. The Roman empire, they practiced the usual things of lack of shame, economic corruption, moral corruption..over spending/consumption... In other words a lot of similarities Allah has given us already with the stories of previous people.

The blessing of a empire lies in walking the straight path. What do i mean by this? Our actions will ALWAYS get a natural reaction. Because we know from some hadith that nature reacts to our actions as one i believe when Aisha(ra) did say something that would be considered as a insult and Rasullah(saws) saying that how small that word to her is, it could turn the whole ocean in to salty i believe.

So an empire coming to their end is because of Allah, not because..JUST BECAUSE.

a: this incident of bani israil is related to enjoin good and forbidding evil which the ONLY momin forgot to perform his duty, so the punishment was started from him.

Whereas it's guaranteed by our prophet s.a.w that his ummah will never agree on deviation in wholesale.

b: Allah swt will not destroy this ummah as the previous nations were destroyed for their deviation.


(Muslim 6904)
Thauban reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake. And Ihave seen its eastern and western ends. And the dominion of my Unimahwould reach those ends which have been drawn near me and I have beengranted the red and the white trea- sure and I begged my Lord for myUmmah that it should not be destroyed because of famine, nor bedominated by an enemy who is not amongst them to take their lives anddestroy them root and branch, and my Lord said: Muhammad, whenever Imake a decision, there is none to change it. Well, I grant you for yourUmmah that it would not be destroyed by famine and it would not bedominated by an enemy who would not be amongst it and would take theirlives and destroy them root and branch even if all the people from thedifferent parts of the world join hands together (for this purpose),but it would be from amongst them, viz. your Ummah, that some peoplewould kill the others or imprison the others.

[azc]

@Simple_Person


bro,

Allah swt punishes Muslims for their sins and most probably Allah swt purifies the souls by punishment.

But if the rulers are corrupt and the people of kingdom are not happy and suppose any other country attack on them and destroy their kingdom then it can't be considered with surity that Allah swt punished them.

And you're speaking with surity that ottoman empire declined because Allah swt punished them. No,It can't be decided by us.
This is it...

but if you still think that Allah swt punished the corrupt ruler of ottoman empire then it should be trusted that the next ruler who took the throne of the corrupt king, must be a better person, more noble, more just and more pious than him....?
Then, Do you think Kamal Ataturk had these qualities ...??,

[Simple_Person]

a: this incident of bani israil is related to enjoin good and forbidding evil which the ONLY momin forgot to perform his duty, so the punishment was started from him.

Whereas it's guaranteed by our prophet s.a.w that his ummah will never agree on deviation in wholesale.

b: Allah swt will not destroy this ummah as the previous nations were destroyed for their deviation.


(Muslim 6904)
Thauban reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said:Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake. And Ihave seen its eastern and western ends. And the dominion of my Unimahwould reach those ends which have been drawn near me and I have beengranted the red and the white trea- sure and I begged my Lord for myUmmah that it should not be destroyed because of famine, nor bedominated by an enemy who is not amongst them to take their lives anddestroy them root and branch, and my Lord said: Muhammad, whenever Imake a decision, there is none to change it. Well, I grant you for yourUmmah that it would not be destroyed by famine and it would not bedominated by an enemy who would not be amongst it and would take theirlives and destroy them root and branch even if all the people from thedifferent parts of the world join hands together (for this purpose),but it would be from amongst them, viz. your Ummah, that some peoplewould kill the others or imprison the others.

A: Agreed the Ummah will not be destroyed and it has not, only the corrupt ones have been destroyed (Baghdad invasion for example)..another the fall of the last Islamic Caliphate because it was ruled by corruption. The Ummah is still alive, but humiliated. So it is WE who are responsible for that Allah has been humiliating us. That is why i used the reference of Umar ibn Khattab (ra) earlier. If we do not follow the path of Islam we will be humiliated. We know from hadith that from the 73 sects the main body will enter paradise. But again..the Ummah not as a whole, but the corrupters (parts of it), as the Ottoman Empire slowly fell in that pit.

B: (see A).

[Simple_Person]

@Simple_Person


bro,

Allah swt punishes Muslims for their sins and most probably Allah swt purifies the souls by punishment.

But if the rulers are corrupt and the people of kingdom are not happy and suppose any other country attack on them and destroy their kingdom then it can't be considered with surity that Allah swt punished them.

And you're speaking with surity that ottoman empire declined because Allah swt punished them. No,It can't be decided by us.
This is it...

but if you still think that Allah swt punished the corrupt ruler of ottoman empire then it should be trusted that the next ruler who took the throne of the corrupt king, must be a better person, more noble, more just and more pious than him....?
Then, Do you think Kamal Ataturk had these qualities ...??,

We know from hadith that everything that happens to a Muslim is good for a Muslim even punishment.

You don't get it. It is part of the fitrah to stand up against corruption. So if the rulers are corrupt, the fitrah is programmed in such a way that people should stand up against it. Every act or way of life has a certain end. Corruption can go to a certain level, when it has reached that level, then it only can be the end. Which happened to the Ottoman Empire. However one indeed cannot say it is ONLY that. There is much more to it, as for example Allah also says about people who say we believe and not be tested. Allah will make clear who are the liars and ones who truly believe.

When Mustafa kemal rose to power, instead of looking what Islam says, many people started to love nationalism instead. It is more to it than what meets the eye. However i do still believe that the fall of the Ummah was also part of the punishment. Things that have already been decreed if you really ponder about, they are perfectly fit on the corruption people bring forth. Just like the Mongol invasion, it came because of the corruption people brought forth.

We also know from hadith that Rasullah(saws) has said that good will come after bad, but after some time it will not be totally good, but tainted. As you see now a days, some good is given in laws in Muslim majority country, but tainted with other rulings that are not good.

Mustafa Kemal was rather also a fitna i would say, however people instead of rejecting it, they embraced it. These days you see the same for example. They see Assad as evil and WHOEVER fights Assad many Muslims see those people as heroes and good guys..(US for example). While the truth is..Assad = bad and US = bad. But also Turkey as well as Saudi, Qatar..etc all bad. This fitna is age of confusion and the real path is..not choosing ANYBODY, because none pursue the path of Islam.

Anyways, i leave this discussion to this. If you say you are right ..i say for the sake of brotherhood you are right.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

The Ottoman empire had many problems (the rise of nationalism, ethnic division, governance etc) no argument here, and it had to evolve to take further the reforms it had enacted over the previous decades.

As Shirvan in the first video said it had achievments to its name and it was the last time we had a proper independent Muslim power.

For example when the Zionist Theodor Herzl came to the Sultan to buy Palestine this was the his response.

Advise Dr. Herzl not to take any further steps in his project. I cannot give away a handful of the soil of this land for it is not my own, it is for all the Islamic Nation that fought for the sake of this land and watered it with their blood. The Jews may keep their millions. If the Islamic Caliphate is one day destroyed then they will be able to take Palestine without a price. But while I am alive, I would rather push a sword into my body than see the land of Palestine cut and given away from the Islamic State. This will not be. I will not start cutting our bodies while we are alive

More on the decline of the empire,

[anatolian]

Rotschilds started the WW1 to create Israel.

[Simple_Person]

Rotschilds started the WW1 to create Israel.

And how "convenient" that there was a army officer named Mustafa Kemal who did exactly that what benefited to create the foundation for Israel to arise from. That is what i pointed out in the other topic, but i believe you still haven't realized it. He did exactly that which gave the foundation for the state of Israel to lay it's foundation. Destroy the Ottoman Empire from within and corrupt the ideology that the Ottoman Empire even just with some dignity and principles left kept on (Islam).

Introducing

- Nationalism (removing the power that united Muslims under Islam not a man-made country)
- Remove Arabic alphabet (Introducing Latin alphabet)
- Implementing secularism (removing the law that how weak it even had become, but still was..Islamic law under Hanafi madhab)
- Prohibiting Islamic clothing

He even tried to implement the azhan in Turkish instead of Arabic.

Yet many Turks knowing these things TODAY, still believe in this evil he created. This is why i am always so pissed when it comes to Turks and nationalism. He did not save Turks, he brainwashed them to lose what they a bit stood for. He was himself not a Muslim, but still many Turks who know all of this cheer for him. Go and ask any Muslim that truly pursues Islam (not talking about Kurds) and ask them if Mustafa Kemal was a good guy, they would reject it. Ask yourself why?

I have heard that in Turkey it is even forbidden to dig in in to his origin (but could be wrong). When things meet by coincidence just like Mustafa Kemal did exactly those things that were VERY VERY VERY beneficial to the creation of state Israel, know it was not a coincidence. It was planned way ahead. Think logically. How in the world can you destroy a empire, where the people stand by their empire? One can destroy it from within. Just introduce some hero in the eyes of the people and people will follow you like sheep. Which exactly happened with the Ottoman Empire. You think the Zionists would leave such things (leadership of the newly created Turkey) by chance? These people do not leave things to chance. If Mustafa Kemal indeed cared about the Ummah he would have planned or plotted against the Zionists..ahead of their time. Yet all the safeguards he created was to PREVENT any Islamic group to cease power and to do exactly just that ..(with the slightest possibility they would stand up against the Zionists). Why all those coups in the past? ..the safeguards to prevent uprising against the Zionists. This even with Erdogan, he is not so loud about the zionists, but keeps his voice low. Why??

Look at US, if you still are blind..well let me chew it for you..go search AIPAC. No US president comes to power unless he is loyal to the Zionists. When we talk about such huge plans of creating such a state..do NOT think such people with such wealth and power leave things to chance....they don't. Everything must be covered and insured so their plans are solid and nobody prevents them doing their thing.

If you did not knew these things or even thought about these things in your wildest dreams, go ask yourself how come you never looked at it from such a perspective?



EVERYTHING MUST BE CONTROLLED!! Nothing is left to chance.

[CuriousonTruth]

That scimitar fellow sounds like an Imran Hossein cultist.