PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix wel

[fromelsewhere]

Here is an article that shows a clear example of what happens when people try to take religious texts very literally and apply it to the laws of nature. It doesn't work! It leads to wacky ideas that have long since been proven to be false such as that the earth is flat, that it is young (a few thousands of years old), that it is immobile and fixed at the center of the universe, that the stars are mere ornaments in the sky, and so on and so forth...

http://gulfnews.com/opinion/thinkers...flat-1.2009202

"Last week, a huge scandal rocked the Tunisian and Arab scientific and educational world: a PhD student submitted a thesis declaring Earth to be flat, unmoving, young (only 13,500 years of age), and the centre of the universe..."

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

I firmly believe that God created the universe and life, it is up to science to try and understand how this happened. If evolution ever happened, I firmly believe hat it could never happen without guidance from God. But I am not convinced that evolution is a valid explanation for life on earth.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric

[fromelsewhere]

@Eric H ,

Do you believe that God created the universe in 6 days? If so, how old do you think the earth (and universe) is?

As for the bit about evolution, you should know that evolution does not explain how life started out on earth but simply explains how life changes to better adapt to its environment through the mechanism of "natural selection." There is a similar mechanism called "artificial selection" which is when humans breed a particular animal or plant to produce specific traits. This is how we got dogs from wolves or goldfish from carps. "Artificial selection" works much faster than natural selection, but it demonstrates that living creatures do indeed have a certain amount of genetic variability that allows us (or nature) to create over time different living beings of a different species.

[ardianto]

Assalamualaikum. Greeting everyone.

One thing that I am curious about that student conclusion which she believe that earth is flat. Does it come from her own research?. Or she just blindly follow a Muslim figure who says that earth is flat, then she seeked 'evidences' to support that Muslim figure opinion?.

I remember the case that ever happened in Indonesia when a small Muslim group issued 'fatwa' that according to Islam the sun rotates the earth. One of them even issued a book about it. But from what I have noticed they made conclusion that 'according to Islam the sun rotates the earth', not because they did their own research, but because they blindly follow a sheikh in Arabia who said that the sun rotates the earth.

Back to that student. If she made conclusion that earth is flat based on her own research, we have to appreciate her although we disagree. But if that just because she blindly follow someone who think like that, ... hmm ..., we have to realize that figure/group fanaticism is still strong in the Muslim world.

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[fromelsewhere]

One thing that I am curious about that student conclusion which she believe that earth is flat. Does it come from her own research?. Or she just blindly follow a Muslim figure who says that earth is flat, then she seeked 'evidences' to support that Muslim figure opinion?.

Back to that student. If she made conclusion that earth is flat based on her own research, we have to appreciate her although we disagree. But if that just because she blindly follow someone who think like that, ... hmm ..., we have to realize that figure/group fanaticism is still strong in the Muslim world.

I really don't know how she came up with that conclusion but it is simply wrong.

As Galileo Galilei once said:
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

His other great quote: “Eppur si muove,” meaning, "And yet it [the Earth] moves." He apparently uttered these words after his trial in front of the Roman Inquisition... he had to deny his cosmological theories to avoid being burnt at the stake as had been the case years earlier for the unfortunate Giordano Bruno.

[Serinity]

:salam:

The Earth is not flat, and the Earth rotates around its axis. This does not contradict Islam.

And as for the 6 days. It is wrong to assume it to be 6 earthly days because we know time to be relative. Allah :swt: could make 1 day, a thousand years.

The only difference is that we infer Allah :swt: , and rightly so. For I do not believe that this Universe could could be created without Allah :swt: .

Allah forbids us not from using our intellect - rather He :swt: commands us to think / use our intellect.

It is wrong to judge Islam based on other religions. Islam commands you to use your intellect, and on the day of judgment, one'd be regretful for not using reason and listening.

Allah :swt: says (interpretation of the ayah): 67:9-10

They will say," Yes, a warner had come to us, but we denied and said, ' Allah has not sent down anything. You are not but in great error.' " (67:9)
And they will say, "If only we had been listening or reasoning, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze." (67:10)

Allahu alam.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

Do you believe that God created the universe in 6 days?

I believe that God created the universe in six days, But God does not live on a planet whose days are limited to twenty four hours. How would God measure a day in his life? I don't know, it could be twenty four hours, it could be a billion years. Days and time seem to loose their meaning when you think about God and infinity.

I think there is another reason that God said he created the universe in six days, and it is because he rested on the seventh. Mankind is to toil and work for six days, and he is to dedicate the seventh day to God, the Sabbath.

As for the bit about evolution, you should know that evolution does not explain how life started out on earth but simply explains how life changes to better adapt to its environment through the mechanism of "natural selection."

We look at life on Earth today, then we extrapolate back about three and a half billion years to a first life, and evolution then seems to be a valid explanation of the diversity and complexity of life we see today. But I am not convinced.

There is a similar mechanism called "artificial selection" which is when humans breed a particular animal or plant to produce specific traits.

Humans are the intelligence behind this kind of evolution, and they have goals in mind.

This is how we got dogs from wolves or goldfish from carps. "Artificial selection" works much faster than natural selection, but it demonstrates that living creatures do indeed have a certain amount of genetic variability that allows us (or nature) to create over time different living beings of a different species.

But it cannot demonstrate how we get a wolf from bacteria.

Religion is to try and have an understanding of God's purpose for us. Science is trying to understand the mechanisms of the universe and life, so science and religion can still survive together.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

[sister herb]

We need to remember that when we are looking for the truth, science is only our tool to seek it. With it we create our theories how this and that is (or how we understand it) but we create new theories all the time and they might be different than the old ones. How we can say the science is the truth when it changes when our understanding increases? The scientific truth today might be false tomorrow.

[talibilm]

The Noble Quran never claimed any where clear Cut that the Earth is flat or sphere which is the most right thing in the wisdom of Allah , The Creator , since myself after 1400 years after the revelation of the noble Quran and even after 10,000 folds of scientific development even myself while flying at 30-40000 feet, still could not find any spheric curve that would satisfy ME that the earth is spherical so we believe Nasa bluntly on such matters , ^o)

If Allah clearly told that the earth was sphere and even if Prophet :saws: who could have seen the earth from the skies said it was a sphere, do you know what could have happened ? The Pagan Arabs then would have constructed THE tallest tower to climb (like Pharaoh Ordered his construction minister Hamaan for seeing Allah because Moses (pbuh) said Allah is in the skies) and see was it real ? That would lead them only to waste their Precious TIME only thinking on this single word and still cannot come to any conclusion untill a satellite photographed it FROM SPACE and even a a Modern Astronomical Telescope found in 16- 17 th century would not have helped untill we travelled to Space to an altitude of more than 100km above EARTH since even myself while flying at 30-40000 feet, still could not find any spheric curve that would satisfy ME that the earth is spherical. So the result could have been the pagans would have rejected the Noble Quran as a Lie and we would have been worshipping some idols ;D now

So that's why Allah says in the Noble Quran to the people not to ask too many questions and if it was answered plainly to them it will land them in more problems So The ALL WISE, Allah knew VERY WELL what to reveal ? & what not to reveal ? & what to leave it 'VAGUE' ? and how to address it ( The RIGHT DOSAGE OF KNOWLEDGE to the camel herders and bedoiuns who do not know the meaning to the word 'science" OR OVER DOSAGE WOULD HAVE KILLED THEM- their faith ) so that they became believers that changed them like 'Sand into gold'' ( The Gentiles & Pagans, Camel, Sheep herders to the rulers sitting on Throne of Caeser 's Ruling the world in 30-35 years) Subhanallah


,So the Prophet(pbuh) rightly commented this in his Last haj sermon few months before his demise

'' ....................... I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people.''


But there is a hint in the Noble Quran for the Earth Not to be a Flat Earth since Allah says something like this Earth would be pounded and made into a flat earth on the day of Judgement (implying its not flat now) and people will be given sharp sight (like a telescope ) so that they will see how Bush being questioned in USA while standing in East Asia.

[fromelsewhere]

The point is that some people even nowadays still believe that the Earth is flat, a few thousands of years old, at the center of the universe, and so on. There is NO reason to believe these things anymore as we have a tonne of evidence that these things are not true. People who try to use religion to justify why they believe in these things that clearly go against all the evidence we have are making a fool of themselves. Believing in a religion should not require us to suspend our sense of reasoning and logic.

[Bobbyflay23]

:salam:

The Earth is not flat, and the Earth rotates around its axis. This does not contradict Islam.

And as for the 6 days. It is wrong to assume it to be 6 earthly days because we know time to be relative. Allah :swt: could make 1 day, a thousand years.

The only difference is that we infer Allah :swt: , and rightly so. For I do not believe that this Universe could could be created without Allah :swt: .

Allah forbids us not from using our intellect - rather He :swt: commands us to think / use our intellect.

It is wrong to judge Islam based on other religions. Islam commands you to use your intellect, and on the day of judgment, one'd be regretful for not using reason and listening.

Allah :swt: says (interpretation of the ayah): 67:9-10

They will say," Yes, a warner had come to us, but we denied and said, ' Allah has not sent down anything. You are not but in great error.' " (67:9)
And they will say, "If only we had been listening or reasoning, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze." (67:10)

Allahu alam.

Minecraft is flat and minecraft has a accurate representation of science dude

[Serinity]

Minecraft is flat and minecraft has a accurate representation of science dude

lol

But seriously, science is the study of the universe. The tools we have, etc. sometimes are flawed.

It is weird for people to take science as a religion. It is like taking the study of other sciences as a religion.

Allahu alam.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

People who try to use religion to justify why they believe in these things that clearly go against all the evidence we have are making a fool of themselves.

The person in question tried to form a scientific argument for their case, and not a religious argument. This is from the link you provided..

Going even bolder and further, the student explicitly rejected the physics of Newton and Einstein, the astronomy of Copernicus and Kepler, the cosmology of the Big Bang, the main models of atmospheric and geological activity, and most of modern climatology.

The student submitted her thesis after five years of work; it was then sent to two assessors, thus passing the first stage of approvals. The reports were expected soon, for the thesis defence to be scheduled.

This new scandal is much worse, because it does not come from a cleric (that was bad enough) but rather from a PhD student in science, her supervisor held the Professor rank (the highest in academia), and they were explicitly rejecting major parts of modern science.

It appears they were trying to use science to challenge science, so I am not sure why you would object to people challenging existing theories. This is no different to an atheist writing a science paper; that could be used to try and disprove the existence of God.

Believing in a religion should not require us to suspend our sense of reasoning and logic.

Reason and logic can also lead us to the conclusion; that creation could only happen through God.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[Simple_Person]

The point is that some people even nowadays still believe that the Earth is flat, a few thousands of years old, at the center of the universe, and so on. There is NO reason to believe these things anymore as we have a tonne of evidence that these things are not true. People who try to use religion to justify why they believe in these things that clearly go against all the evidence we have are making a fool of themselves. Believing in a religion should not require us to suspend our sense of reasoning and logic.

You are SERIOUSLY OBSESSED with religion and to my knowledge especially Islam. You already have stated that you do not want to share anything personal on a public forum, but yet you share YOUR OPINION in a public..that is also something personal ;). What i still fail to grasp is ..WHY ARE YOU SO OBSESSED with religion?

There are Muslims that believe if you CLAIM God doesn't exist you deserve to be killed =_=!, there are also Muslims that if you disagree with THEIR opinion, you have become a "kafir", there are also Muslims that think ..praying, paying, zakaat, going to haij, but now and then lying, cheating, gossiping, slandering..is acceptable..there are also Muslims that say praying is not necessary as long as you believe in Allah and his Messenger, there are also Muslims that believe Islam needs to be changed and it is violent religion..there are Muslim women that marry non-Muslim men and do not see it as zina, while there are also Muslim men that marry women who are not Muslim, Christian or Jews and see that not as zina. There are Muslims who are convinced being homosexual is rather a "gift" of Allah and should be practiced. There are Muslim women who are convinced that they should be the imaam also before men. There are Muslim women who are convinced that wearing tight clothes no hijab, doing plastic surgery to enhance their beauty is acceptable, while there are Muslim men who are convinced they can go to the gym to work out wear tight jeans and show their muscles out in the public to women.

In other words among Muslims there are some many MESSED UP Muslims. If you try to go in discussion and try to make them follow, logic, rationality and reason, they see you as if you are a "radical"-Muslim, just because you try to warn them..brother/sister..beware Day of Judgement will come and you will stand on your own..think and ponder about your actions. However there among those Muslims that take Day of Judgement as something "not important" or just "invented".

My advice to you, let it go bro..let it gooo..Human beings these days, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu..etc are CONFUSED & MESSED UP!! Let go of your obsession about Islam, you will only get annoyed by it. Go do something that you enjoy doing it. For your also is YOLO (You Only Live Once), you are wasting your time spending discussing religious issues, while you yourself are 100% convinced Islam is false..go have "fun" whatever you like to do..every second counts..every minute counts.

You will regret when you are on you are almost about to die, that you have not "enjoyed" life, rather being obsessed with Islam, while you are convinced of Islam being false. Off course you are ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION on this, but let it go..delete your account ask yourself why are you spending so much time on people who already disagree with you and do not see eye to eye whatsoever.

I really feel SORRY for you, with all honesty. Spending so much time on this forum ..wasting time..with people YOU SEE as already "deluded".

[fromelsewhere]

Greetings Eric H,

The person in question tried to form a scientific argument for their case, and not a religious argument. This is from the link you provided..

The person in question would not have believed that the Earth was flat (and the other weird theories she had) if it weren't for her religious views.

It appears they were trying to use science to challenge science, so I am not sure why you would object to people challenging existing theories. This is no different to an atheist writing a science paper; that could be used to try and disprove the existence of God.

It certainly does not appear that she was using science, as all of the evidence points to a spherical earth that is billions of years old and that spins on its axis and orbits the sun.

[fromelsewhere]

You are SERIOUSLY OBSESSED with religion and to my knowledge especially Islam. You already have stated that you do not want to share anything personal on a public forum, but yet you share YOUR OPINION in a public..that is also something personal ;). What i still fail to grasp is ..WHY ARE YOU SO OBSESSED with religion?

There are Muslims that believe if you CLAIM God doesn't exist you deserve to be killed =_=!, there are also Muslims that if you disagree with THEIR opinion, you have become a "kafir", there are also Muslims that think ..praying, paying, zakaat, going to haij, but now and then lying, cheating, gossiping, slandering..is acceptable..there are also Muslims that say praying is not necessary as long as you believe in Allah and his Messenger, there are also Muslims that believe Islam needs to be changed and it is violent religion..there are Muslim women that marry non-Muslim men and do not see it as zina, while there are also Muslim men that marry women who are not Muslim, Christian or Jews and see that not as zina. There are Muslims who are convinced being homosexual is rather a "gift" of Allah and should be practiced. There are Muslim women who are convinced that they should be the imaam also before men. There are Muslim women who are convinced that wearing tight clothes no hijab, doing plastic surgery to enhance their beauty is acceptable, while there are Muslim men who are convinced they can go to the gym to work out wear tight jeans and show their muscles out in the public to women.

In other words among Muslims there are some many MESSED UP Muslims. If you try to go in discussion and try to make them follow, logic, rationality and reason, they see you as if you are a "radical"-Muslim, just because you try to warn them..brother/sister..beware Day of Judgement will come and you will stand on your own..think and ponder about your actions. However there among those Muslims that take Day of Judgement as something "not important" or just "invented".

My advice to you, let it go bro..let it gooo..Human beings these days, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu..etc are CONFUSED & MESSED UP!! Let go of your obsession about Islam, you will only get annoyed by it. Go do something that you enjoy doing it. For your also is YOLO (You Only Live Once), you are wasting your time spending discussing religious issues, while you yourself are 100% convinced Islam is false..go have "fun" whatever you like to do..every second counts..every minute counts.

You will regret when you are on you are almost about to die, that you have not "enjoyed" life, rather being obsessed with Islam, while you are convinced of Islam being false. Off course you are ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION on this, but let it go..delete your account ask yourself why are you spending so much time on people who already disagree with you and do not see eye to eye whatsoever.

I really feel SORRY for you, with all honesty. Spending so much time on this forum ..wasting time..with people YOU SEE as already "deluded".

Salaams Simple_Person,

The purpose of a public forum is to exchange ideas and opinions. This is what I do, as if I were to have these discussions in person, I would get harassed non-stop.

As for the rest of your blah blah about the Day of Judgement and enjoying life, I would advice that you take your own advice and leave people share their opinions on this (and other) public forums in peace.

[fromelsewhere]

lol

But seriously, science is the study of the universe. The tools we have, etc. sometimes are flawed.

It is weird for people to take science as a religion. It is like taking the study of other sciences as a religion.

Allahu alam.

Yes, the tools are sometimes flawed and our theories may be flawed as well, but with time, as our tools improve and scientists come up with better theories that have better predictive power, the science gets better and better. Science evolves over time as we get to understand our world better. The big advantage of science is that it is independently verifiable, so people of different cultures, races and whatnot can all come to the same conclusions by studying the evidence and repeating the experiments.

Science does not replace religion because science only deals with the natural, materialistic world... things that can be seen/measured/experienced through some force, and so on. Religion, on the other hand, deals to a large extent with the 'supernatural'... things like jinns, angels, and so on. These things cannot be measured/quantified by scientific means.

What I am therefore arguing for is that we should avoid mixing the two together because they are quite different, and people come up to ridiculous conclusions such as that the earth is flat if they try to do science with their religious beliefs.

[Simple_Person]

Salaams Simple_Person,

The purpose of a public forum is to exchange ideas and opinions. This is what I do, as if I were to have these discussions in person, I would get harassed non-stop.

As for the rest of your blah blah about the Day of Judgement and enjoying life, I would advice that you take your own advice and leave people share their opinions on this (and other) public forums in peace.

Dude, there is sharing ideas and opinions and there is this idea of you already are "correct" and i am bringing this up..so i can win the discussion.

You try to make things look like so civilized as if this is the discussion based on intellectual debate/discussion, rather it only is looking as if you are tying to disprove Islam. I welcome intellectual debate/discussion, but i actively reject this mentality of yours of trying to want to disprove Islam..in other words..spreading propaganda.

Based on what do i say this?

Here is an article that shows a clear example of what happens when people try to take religious texts very literally and apply it to the laws of nature. It doesn't work!

People who try to use religion to justify why they believe in these things that clearly go against all the evidence we have are making a fool of themselves. Believing in a religion should not require us to suspend our sense of reasoning and logic.

You really really really have personal issues with religion. Maybe your family has disowned you and you have taken as your life mission to attack/disprove Islam or religion in general. Maybe you have lost a loved one and thus are trying to attack /disprove Islam or religion in general.

So again, my advice strongly is go fix your personal issues first because when i die and when you die, religion and Islam most probably will still exist. People with your mentality only put doubt in the hearts of Muslims who already are lazy to do research and in the end leave religion because you have something against religion and try to ruin it for other people as well.

You bring too much emotions to a debate that says leave out emotion. Have you ever wondered MAYBE..JUST MAYBE those "Moslems" are right and i am wrong? And if they are right and i am wrong, how come they are right and i am wrong?

The state as you are in now, you can find 1000 excuses why YOU are right and Muslims are wrong. However that is the wrong approach, the right approach with everything is find the excuse why YOU are wrong and the discussion partner is right. Because I HAVE DONE THAT AND TRIED HONESTLY to follow that path that Islam might be wrong, but every time i found logic, rational and reasonable argument that refuted those arguments. From evolution theory, to even as a agnostic approach..time after time religion after religion was proved wrong and ONLY Islam stood strong. But all the argument of you and people like minded is based on some "feeling" that "naah most probably it is not that.."..

"And the Day the wrongdoer will bite on his hands [in regret] he will say, "Oh, I wish I had taken with the Messenger a way." Qur'an 25:63

"[For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back" Qur'an 23:99

"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe." Qur'an 2:6

These AND MANY MANY more ayaat in the Qur'an are VERY VERY SERIOUS accusations towards one who does not believe.

Even this..

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -" Qur'an 2:2

This is a HUGE CLAIM..that it says there is NO DOUBT..How come this book makes SUCH A HUGE CLAIM!!! What is going on in your head and heart that doesn't take all those serious claim also serious?? What if they are true and you disregarded it as some playful thing..later on it just happened to be as it is? If it was indeed NOTHING and we die and there is nothing nobody loses..but there IS A CLAIM..and such a SERIOUS THREAT should not be taken lightly you know. But again ..this answers your approach..

"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe." Qur'an 2:6

[fromelsewhere]

You try to make things look like so civilized as if this is the discussion based on intellectual debate/discussion, rather it only is looking as if you are tying to disprove Islam. I welcome intellectual debate/discussion, but i actively reject this mentality of yours of trying to want to disprove Islam..in other words..spreading propaganda.

How am I trying to disprove Islam? Please explain... (Unless you think that science goes against Islam?)

This is a HUGE CLAIM..that it says there is NO DOUBT..How come this book makes SUCH A HUGE CLAIM!!! What is going on in your head and heart that doesn't take all those serious claim also serious?? What if they are true and you disregarded it as some playful thing..later on it just happened to be as it is? If it was indeed NOTHING and we die and there is nothing nobody loses..but there IS A CLAIM..and such a SERIOUS THREAT should not be taken lightly you know. But again ..this answers your approach..

"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe." Qur'an 2:6

Sigh... I am tired of these kinds of 'threats' of disbelief. I want evidence to believe! Threats have 0 value in convincing me :)

[noraina]

Wa alaykum assalam,

Okay, I think we all accept this thesis is a strange exception to the norm - which is why it has made it into the news in the first place. The vast majority of Muslims have no problem in acknowledging the fact that the earth is not flat.

We can't label an entire religion based on what someone who is a believer does - people can have their own interpretations which are wildly wrong.

Science is a valuable source of knowledge and the Qur'an even uses scientific facts as a way to reveal to us the signs of Allah swt's existence. Muslims have long used science to understand the world around them.

To be honest, it's only in the past 200 years or so that people have begun to see science and religion as pitted against each other to prove which is right or not, particularly in Western countries.

And I think we forget science is not a universal 'truth'. Even theories accepted now may be disproved in the future. It is a constantly evolving and developing form of knowledge and so it strikes me as ironic when some people view it as a set of religion beliefs in themselves and give it that infallibility.

For Muslims (and you're going to disagree, I know) Islam is that ultimate truth. And science is a way to document the glory of Allah swt and understand that ultimate truth. And in the *rare* event science and religion contradict, we will look to Islam for guidance because as people our reason can only go so far.

[Simple_Person]

How am I trying to disprove Islam? Please explain... (Unless you think that science goes against Islam?)

Science does NOT contradict Islam. But in another thread you FEEL as if Muslims are bending the ayaat towards religion. If you ask Muslims, about many ayaat, they do NOT know.

Just recently an example of the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) about the end times.

===========Hadith=========

"The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "There are two types of people who will be punished in Hell and whom I have not seen: men having whips like the tails of cows and they will be beating people with them, and, women who will be dressed but appear to be naked, inviting to evil; and they themselves will be inclined to it. Their heads will appear like the humps of the Bactrian camel inclined to one side. They will not enter Jannah and they will not smell its fragrance which is perceptible from such and such a distance."

Source used: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/18/123

This man some 1400 years ago, came with this HUGE CLAIM that there will come a time that women will be dressed but naked. If you say that these times it doesn't fit this narration, then FOR SURE you are a liar.

Another example.

=========Hadith==========
“By the One in Whose Hand is my soul! The Hour will not be established until predators speak to people and until the tip of a man’s whip and the straps on his sandal (shoe) speak to him, and his thigh informs him of what occurred with his family after he left.”

Source used: https://thedirorg.wordpress.com/2014...shoe-prophecy/

How is this bending religious text and saying to science?



======Hadith=========

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) came out one day to the people, and a man came to him and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, when will the Hour be?’ He said: ‘The one who is asked about it does not know more than the one who is asking. But I will tell you of its portents. When the slave woman gives birth to her mistress, that is one of its portents. When the barefoot and naked become leaders of the people, that is one of its portents. When shepherds compete in constructing buildings, that is one of its portents. (The Hour) is one of five (things) which no one knows except Allah.’ Then the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) recited the words: “Verily, Allah, with Him (alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. (to the end of the Verse).”[31:34]

Source used: https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/36/119


How is this ME or any Muslim "bending" things to make so called sense of what is going on? You have EYES..and you can make your own conclusion, but i have a strong conclusion that you will not admit. If feel REALLY REALLY REALLY sorry for you, because there are people who have discussions but when they cannot explain it ..they say..."you got a point there". For you no matter if we throw all the proof and evidence right in your face and you in no way can doge it..you will still try to find a way out of it.

"Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment." Qur'an 2:7

[noraina]

Blind belief or faith is never encouraged and in fact is dangerous, as it makes people vulnerable to the wrong interpretations and messages from others who seek to exploit any religious devotion or fervour. We have seen this countless times, across all religions.

As Muslims, we are told to use our intellect and there are so many hadiths of our Prophet :saws: telling the believers to seek knowledge - it is given such a high priority. The more we learn, the more we can understand the word and wisdom of Allah swt and the more we can improve the world around us.

And an interesting point - I think the flat-earth theory is ridiculous and anyone who endorses it needs to read any good science book. *However* - the outrage people express when any scientific fact or theory is disputed is telling of a devotion and commitment to science going much deeper than rational logic.

This will be way too much to get into a single post, but look up the work of Feyeraband, Kaplan and Kuhn - they do not discredit science, but they do point out that science isn't necessarily the 'open-belief system' it is commonly assumed to be. I am a firm believer in science but, as with religion, there are those who work for their own interests rather than the honest pursuit of knowledge.

[fromelsewhere]

@Simple_Person , please read the first post of the thread where I give an example of what happens when people make outrageous 'scientific' claims based on 0 evidence but rather on their religious views.

[fromelsewhere]

Blind belief or faith is never encouraged and in fact is dangerous, as it makes people vulnerable to the wrong interpretations and messages from others who seek to exploit any religious devotion or fervour. We have seen this countless times, across all religions.

As Muslims, we are told to use our intellect and there are so many hadiths of our Prophet :saws: telling the believers to seek knowledge - it is given such a high priority. The more we learn, the more we can understand the word and wisdom of Allah swt and the more we can improve the world around us.

And an interesting point - I think the flat-earth theory is ridiculous and anyone who endorses it needs to read any good science book. *However* - the outrage people express when any scientific fact or theory is disputed is telling of a devotion and commitment to science going much deeper than rational logic.

This will be way too much to get into a single post, but look up the work of Feyeraband, Kaplan and Kuhn - they do not discredit science, but they do point out that science isn't necessarily the 'open-belief system' it is commonly assumed to be. I am a firm believer in science but, as with religion, there are those who work for their own interests rather than the honest pursuit of knowledge.

Your first 2 sentences get right into the heart of what I am complaining about: what happens when people don't want to examine the evidence around them and instead choose to ignore it for so-called "religious" reasons.

Yes, science can be hijacked, like religion, by unscrupulous people with agendas. But sooner or later, the truth comes out and false theories are debunked.

[Simple_Person]

@Simple_Person, please read the first post of the thread where I give an example of what happens when people make outrageous 'scientific' claims based on 0 evidence but rather on their religious views.

You re-read my comment i made, that i said many people make many different claims ESPECIALLY Muslims now a days..one saying that he can marry a non-Muslim/Christian/Jewish woman is oke and NOT Zina. These PEOPLE EXIST, but you make it as if this is typcically religious people who say this.

You think i agree with such people? Look at atheist or even YOU. You say there is NO God, but the argument and "proof" given is so shallow and based on HOPE. So no i do not follow agnostic or atheistic mentality, i am even skeptical of scientific papers now a days as there are often those scientists who come with false claims so their research can get more funding. I brand something as fact if the research is confirmed by other researchers as well. We live in times that there are many liars. The people who have the MOST power are the LEAST to be trusted now a days.

Look at whole NATO and UN. Those are the cause of the corruption of this world and yet people follow them blindly as heroes and the groups that are "keeping peace" on this earth.

Again i say you have personal issues and better go and fix those first before wanting to discuss such subjects with other Muslims or even religious people in general.

Sigh... I am tired of these kinds of 'threats' of disbelief. I want evidence to believe! Threats have 0 value in convincing me :)

Brother all the evidence is there, but you want YOUR thing to be evidence. I have had discussion with a acquaintance of mine. She said "nobody has come back from death to say there is life after death". The argument would be..what if that individual would be lying? Why would you blindly believe that person? In another time she said..no angel has come down to say there is a God. What if that was trickery and people would say..somebody is fooling us? The story of Prophet Salih(as) is a good one with the camel. They wanted a camel with certain attributes, but still a part did not believe. Believe is based on first step, that is to logically, rationally and reasonably make sense. If this is not done, belief cannot manifest in the heart.

I was also one of those guys that threats had 0 value for me to believe, but i was honest in doing research. However you already accuse Muslims in bending ayaat in the Qur'an. However you also do not trust that Qur'an as their "proof". If you were a logical, rational and reasonable person you would RIGHT NOW started to learn advance Arabic and did your own study deep IN the Qur'an. To find errors in it. But i KNOW you will not do it.

It is not a claim that i know something, but I KNOW YOUR MENTALITY. You will NOT learn Arabic at advance level to really find the truth. You do NOT care rather as i said it already..a personal problem. Just want to attack Islam and Muslims but like hypocrites who say they are Muslims come as a peaceful person. The attitude is the same. (pretending)

GO FIX YOUR PERSONAL ISSUES DUDE.

[fromelsewhere]

You think i agree with such people? Look at atheist or even YOU. You say there is NO God, but the argument and "proof" given is so shallow and based on HOPE. So no i do not follow agnostic or atheistic mentality, i am even skeptical of scientific papers now a days as there are often those scientists who come with false claims so their research can get more funding. I brand something as fact if the research is confirmed by other researchers as well. We live in times that there are many liars. The people who have the MOST power are the LEAST to be trusted now a days.

Look at whole NATO and UN. Those are the cause of the corruption of this world and yet people follow them blindly as heroes and the groups that are "keeping peace" on this earth.

Again i say you have personal issues and better go and fix those first before wanting to discuss such subjects with other Muslims or even religious people in general.

I am agnostic. I do not know whether God exists or not. This is the definition of agnostic. My argument is certainly not based on HOPE. If my argument was based on HOPE, I would believe in God and not doubt his existence. But I do doubt God's existence, since I have not been convinced by the arguments that religious people have brought forward so far of his existence.

You should know that science is a process. One scientific paper may provide some evidence for a claim, but many scientific papers that come to the same conclusion obviously has much more power. You need to gather up a lot of evidence before you can call something a "scientific theory", otherwise you just have a "hypothesis".

As for your rambling about NATO and the UN, I don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand.

As for your last point where you claim that I have personal issues, I think it is a bit rich of you to make such a claim. I will counterclaim that you have personal issues of your own and have a tendency of getting upset very easily when you don't like another person's opinions.

[Simple_Person]

I am agnostic. I do not know whether God exists or not. This is the definition of agnostic. My argument is certainly not based on HOPE. If my argument was based on HOPE, I would believe in God and not doubt his existence. But I do doubt God's existence, since I have not been convinced by the arguments that religious people have brought forward so far of his existence.

You should know that science is a process. One scientific paper may provide some evidence for a claim, but many scientific papers that come to the same conclusion obviously has much more power. You need to gather up a lot of evidence before you can call something a "scientific theory", otherwise you just have a "hypothesis".

As for your rambling about NATO and the UN, I don't see what it has to do with the topic at hand.

As for your last point where you claim that I have personal issues, I think it is a bit rich of you to make such a claim. I will counterclaim that you have personal issues of your own and have a tendency of getting upset very easily when you don't like another person's opinions.

Agnosticism if you ask me is the MOST dangerous form of them all. Because they do not take any sides. It is like the hypocrites among Muslims, they also do not take any sides. They are not Muslim, but they also do not show as if they are unbelievers. With agnosticism, EVERYTHING is seen as doubtful. However they rather lean towards science, but when science is wrong or some religious person says look you see how this is contradictory they say..yeah but i never have claimed there is no God.

About NATO and UN, you fail to grasp what i try to say but nevermind about this.

About your last point, why i get upset is people like you come with such nerve and pretend as if this and that is wrong. One is entitled to their opinion off course and nothing wrong with it. However with somebody who has a opinion, a HONEST person is also open for dialogue and intellectual debate. All you do is come and spread propaganda and your doubt to other people. When one tries to have a debate, you again.. bring this "oooh i need proof". When proof is given you say i do not regard this as proof. When another approach is given..you say i do not approve this approach. Doubt is the most dangerous habit of the human being, because it never shows progress..you stay exactly where you are and will never advance. However time passes by and death is not waiting for anybody.

This forum is not coming and spreading your feelings about religion and you dislike religion. Rather come as a man, say science says there is X, Y and Z how do you Muslims answer to this as it is being contradictory to A, B, C? But with this like i earlier said when we grab the Qur'an ..you come with the claim that Muslims tend to "bend" everything to make things "oke" with science =_=!. Well then if you feel like it..what are you doing here right? You already see as if Islam is wrong..so what gives? You wast everybody's time and having NO progress in a topic whatsoever.

[Bobbyflay23]

How am I trying to disprove Islam? Please explain... (Unless you think that science goes against Islam?)



Sigh... I am tired of these kinds of 'threats' of disbelief. I want evidence to believe! Threats have 0 value in convincing me :)

What about scientfic proof like embryology from 1400 years ago or predictions of the internet and "music on the ears" so headphones what about a discription of which part of your brain is the part that is responsible for lying in a conversation what about grammar and language in the Quran that non Muslims call in human what about predictions of finger printing what about Muhammad (saw) splitting the moon and then NASA finding a crack going all the way around the moon what about the Torah and the Bible predicting Muhammad (saw)with discription how on earth would the Christians and the Jews have known the exact discription of someone who will call himself a prophet what about finding a Quran in a cave with no difference to this version from 900 years ago what about the fact that in all religions it's known that the nations of god are the ones who got tested and oppressed the most such as the people who where getting attacked by the Pharo or such as how the campanions of jesus (as) where getting oppressed what about how currently in this world the major country's who get tests and hardships are the Muslim country's and the ones who are materialistic are the people of other country's and faiths you find it that they're are church's all around getting sold to someone who makes a nightclub out of it you find it that a priest is taking thousands of dollars from church funds to have private homosexual sessions doing things like sexual kinks with urination and then allah talks about how he will humiliate the opposition who commit shirk allah says that he will guide many with his verses and he will misguide many with his verses if you get misguided then you arnt someone who allah wants in this faith because of somthing in your heart that you can fix if you try

[Bobbyflay23]

I am agnostic. I do not know whether God exists or not. This is the definition of agnostic. My argument is certainly not based on HOPE. If my argument was based on HOPE, I would believe in God and not doubt his existence. But I do doubt God's existence, since I have not been convinced by the arguments that religious people have brought forward so far of his existence.

You should know that science is a process. One scientific paper may provide some evidence for a claim, but many scientific papers that come to the same conclusion obviously has much more power. You need to gather up a lot of evidence before you can call something a "scientific theory", otherwise you just have a "hypothesis".

As for your rambling about NATO and the UN, I don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand.

As for your last point where you claim that I have personal issues, I think it is a bit rich of you to make such a claim. I will counterclaim that you have personal issues of your own and have a tendency of getting upset very easily when you don't like another person's opinions.

Also know that there must be a god to counteract evolution nothing can evolve without being alive first so life had to have been placed and as for the universe being created by itself it's impossible so we know there must be a god now it's up to you to study most faiths watch debates and see who is truthful pray to god that he guides you to the right faith if you are to arrogant to just say "oh god if you exist guide me to you I'm open to your existence" you show humility while saying it and address only one lord but if you ask me all the other religions that arnt created by human beings lead back to Islam but don't take my word for it study it yourself

[fromelsewhere]

Agnosticism if you ask me is the MOST dangerous form of them all. Because they do not take any sides. It is like the hypocrites among Muslims, they also do not take any sides. They are not Muslim, but they also do not show as if they are unbelievers. With agnosticism, EVERYTHING is seen as doubtful. However they rather lean towards science, but when science is wrong or some religious person says look you see how this is contradictory they say..yeah but i never have claimed there is no God.

About your last point, why i get upset is people like you come with such nerve and pretend as if this and that is wrong. One is entitled to their opinion off course and nothing wrong with it. However with somebody who has a opinion, a HONEST person is also open for dialogue and intellectual debate. All you do is come and spread propaganda and your doubt to other people. When one tries to have a debate, you again.. bring this "oooh i need proof". When proof is given you say i do not regard this as proof. When another approach is given..you say i do not approve this approach. Doubt is the most dangerous habit of the human being, because it never shows progress..you stay exactly where you are and will never advance. However time passes by and death is not waiting for anybody.

This forum is not coming and spreading your feelings about religion and you dislike religion. Rather come as a man, say science says there is X, Y and Z how do you Muslims answer to this as it is being contradictory to A, B, C? But with this like i earlier said when we grab the Qur'an ..you come with the claim that Muslims tend to "bend" everything to make things "oke" with science =_=!. Well then if you feel like it..what are you doing here right? You already see as if Islam is wrong..so what gives? You wast everybody's time and having NO progress in a topic whatsoever.

Funny that you think that agnosticism is "the most dangerous form of them all", as I have always found blind faith to be "the most dangerous form of them all".
I fail to see how I am spreading propaganda and you not. I am arguing that blind faith to the point of denying obvious things and clear scientific evidence is wrong. I have given an example to illustrate my point. All you have given me so far as counter-arguments are threats of "Judgement Day" and accusations that I have personal issues.

"Doubt", to the contrary, is essential in preventing unscrupulous people from advancing BS scientific theories, BS politics, and other forms of BS. Someone who doubts is someone who thinks and questions themselves, their beliefs, and others. Everyone should have a healthy level of "doubt" or "skepticism" to be functional, otherwise one would believe the first fool who comes around and claims to be a prophet.

When you have valid arguments to make rather than pouring out your bleeding heart at me, please come back and try again... with real arguments.

Thank you and peace.

[Bobbyflay23]

You people who base their beliefs on Science,
You must realize that the Scientific Community is lying to you.
So the one who believes in Science,stands on a base as weak as a spiders web.

No it depends on the science there is much truth in science but when one tries to use science not for development in the human race but to just disproof overs and just try to make conflict then it becomes less truthful because they lie and manipulate they're evidence and stuff like I find it that there evolution is a awful theory that any aethist should follow and that they're are better theory's but the others are still flawed but just much less flawed then evolution

[Serinity]

:salam:

There can be no contradiction between science and Islam. In fact, there is no contradiction.

Allahu alam.

[sister herb]

More than one of the scholars have narrated that there is consensus that the Earth is round.

Published Date: 2014-06-05

Whole article: https://islamqa.info/en/118698

imsad No pancakes.

[noraina]

Wait, I don't believe Islam makes any direct reference to what shape the earth is. Whether you believe it is flat or round has nothing to do with religion or your faith or what you worship per se.

To be honest, the overwhelming consensus is that it is spherical. I have more proof that the earth is spherical than it is flat, I've read all the 'evidence' there is for a flat earth and it is far from convincing.

We need to be careful before completely discrediting science. No doubt, science is an 'institution' like any other part of society and there can be people with vested interests using it for their own agenda, *but* it has done a whole lot of good for society and there were many Muslims who pioneered in many fields of science.

[Bobbyflay23]

Wait, I don't believe Islam makes any direct reference to what shape the earth is. Whether you believe it is flat or round has nothing to do with religion or your faith or what you worship per se.

To be honest, the overwhelming consensus is that it is spherical. I have more proof that the earth is spherical than it is flat, I've read all the 'evidence' there is for a flat earth and it is far from convincing.

We need to be careful before completely discrediting science. No doubt, science is an 'institution' like any other part of society and there can be people with vested interests using it for their own agenda, *but* it has done a whole lot of good for society and there were many Muslims who pioneered in many fields of science.

Yea same I'm open to the idea but I've never been convinced by it I've gotten into a heated debate with my friend about this for over a hour and he basically couldn't answer a single question

[noraina]

By the way, I still didn't know the 'flat-earth' model is still a thing. But then, I suppose if evolution is, why can't that be? :D

Whenever I learn about the world, or the universe, or the way the natural world works so perfectly, it reinforces my faith. Science and religion definitely do not contradict, they are both difference ways to understand the world and the work of God - this perceived 'battleground' between 'modern science' and 'archaic religion' is nothing but a remnant of some people who decided science and religion cannot possibly work together. Surely we've gone beyond that now?

[MuhammadHamza1]

More than one of the scholars have narrated that there is consensus that the Earth is round.

Published Date: 2014-06-05

Whole article: https://islamqa.info/en/118698

imsad No pancakes.

Sister I am aware of that.
I am also aware of many other Islamic rulings.
But I will give you an example.
Hanafi Fiqh sats there is no evidence in Quran that Earth is round.
I am a Salafi and I take advice from all four Fiqhs.
But this shows that there is difference of opinion.
A view of every fiqh carries weight.

[fromelsewhere]

There's a difference bettween having doubts with reason and being arrogant with no reason and looking for flaws instead of looking for evidence with no flaws in talking about a aethist or one who would call himself agnostic to make himself seem open to the idea but inside a aethist

I am an agnostic and not an atheist. I am growing very tired of people giving me all sorts of labels because they do not like my opinions. Please stick to arguments and not personal attacks. Thank you.

[Serinity]

4:82

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.
____________

[Bobbyflay23]

Sister I am aware of that.
I am also aware of many other Islamic rulings.
But I will give you an example.
Hanafi Fiqh sats there is no evidence in Quran that Earth is round.
I am a Salafi and I take advice from all four Fiqhs.
But this shows that there is difference of opinion.
A view of every fiqh carries weight.

I can't find the post you made on the world being flat and stuff I read your reasons and stuff but they simply didn't make sense from my perspective

[Muhammad]

Please can we stay on topic. This thread went off on a very strange tangent discussing conspiracy theories etc.

The person in question would not have believed that the Earth was flat (and the other weird theories she had) if it weren't for her religious views.

With regards to the claims about this PhD thesis, we need to verify before making any conclusions about it. It seems only six pages of it have been posted online here: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/vi...1/9-st1608-011

The title of it reads: The Geocentric Model of the Earth: Physics and Astronomy Arguments.

The abstract reads, 'Several astronomical observations have shown the presence of numerous failings in heliocentric model such as Mercury retrograde motion, cosmic rays and Perseids meteors. Numerous researchers are talking about these topics. Because there is no empirical evidence that the Earth actually orbits the sun, astronomy observationsl geophysics arguments provide proofs for the steady Earth and the Sun's motion. The main contention of the paper is to demonstrate the flaws in gravity and relativity, and to disprove the alleged motions of the earth that for so long time has been unjustifiably taught.'

And the conclusion for this segment reads: In conclusion various physics arguments and astronomy observations show the stability of the Earth in the universe and the sun, the moon, the stars and the planets motion around it. Then the heliocentric model must to be rejected. On the contrary, the revision of the geocentric model will be necessary. Consequently, the Sun revolves around Earth daily in 23h 56min 4.1Second from East to West.


The above part of the paper is focused on scientific arguments. It is possible the author mentions her religious views in other parts of her paper. However, it is difficult to make a judgement on her intentions and views without verifying from the actual source. There is no need to make a blanket statement about religion and science.

As Muslims, we believe in whatever Allaah سبحانه وتعالى has revealed in His Book and the teachings of His Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. He is the Creator of this universe, so He knows more about it than Einstein, Newton, Galileo or anyone else. He سبحانه وتعالى has created the stars as a beautification for the nearest heaven, as missiles to be thrown at devils and as signs by which people can be guided. There is nothing 'whacky' about this and nothing which contradicts logic or science.

[Simple_Person]

Funny that you think that agnosticism is "the most dangerous form of them all", as I have always found blind faith to be "the most dangerous form of them all".
I fail to see how I am spreading propaganda and you not. I am arguing that blind faith to the point of denying obvious things and clear scientific evidence is wrong. I have given an example to illustrate my point. All you have given me so far as counter-arguments are threats of "Judgement Day" and accusations that I have personal issues.

"Doubt", to the contrary, is essential in preventing unscrupulous people from advancing BS scientific theories, BS politics, and other forms of BS. Someone who doubts is someone who thinks and questions themselves, their beliefs, and others. Everyone should have a healthy level of "doubt" or "skepticism" to be functional, otherwise one would believe the first fool who comes around and claims to be a prophet.

When you have valid arguments to make rather than pouring out your bleeding heart at me, please come back and try again... with real arguments.

Thank you and peace.

You lack A LOT OF pondering on philosophical level. The person who blindly follows is not even the most dangerous form. Based on what? The person who follows blindly, is NOT using the mind. This individual(s) can be thought to THINK..to use logic, rationality and reason. They can be guided so to say by somebody who can teach them to not follow a blind way of following.

The dangerous thing of agnosticism is they use their mind, but still they cannot derive on the true, because they DOUBT ON EVERYTHING. A atheism if you ask me is even much better place than agnosticism, because they at least are FIRM in their believe of evolution theory. The only thing that needs to be done is have a intellectual debate and they might slowly do agree with you. With agnostics..doubt this..doubt that..they are not firm in anything when it comes to religious debate.

So there is a REASON why i say agnosticism is the MOST dangerous state to be on. They follow the way of atheists, as they do not follow any religious teachings so based on actions they are no different compared to an atheist.

So you see, you are rather have a very shallow constructed view (no offense) based on what is the most dangerous state of them all. With you it doesn't matter how many people will come to you and how educated they are or good at explaining with how many proof..you are in a state of doubt.

The people that i get the MOST annoyed by are people with your mentality. They doubt something, you proof to them, but their doubt NEVER go away. From thing 1 they go thing 2, from thing 3 they go thin 4 if they of all of those things get a logic, rational and reasonable answer..still there is a doubt and they keep doubting and doubting. I honestly fear for you that you end up dying in this state.

Because i have found no way how to get people who are agnostics to get them out of that state. From atheists you can have a very 1+1=2 debate/dicussion so to say, but people who are agnostics will rely like..but "WHAT IF in some dimension 1+1 = 3?" This "WHAT IF" is killing me when trying to have a discussion based on logic, rationality and reason.

[fromelsewhere]

The title of it reads: The Geocentric Model of the Earth: Physics and Astronomy Arguments.

The abstract reads, 'Several astronomical observations have shown the presence of numerous failings in heliocentric model such as Mercury retrograde motion, cosmic rays and Perseids meteors. Numerous researchers are talking about these topics. Because there is no empirical evidence that the Earth actually orbits the sun, astronomy observationsl geophysics arguments provide proofs for the steady Earth and the Sun's motion. The main contention of the paper is to demonstrate the flaws in gravity and relativity, and to disprove the alleged motions of the earth that for so long time has been unjustifiably taught.'

And the conclusion for this segment reads: In conclusion various physics arguments and astronomy observations show the stability of the Earth in the universe and the sun, the moon, the stars and the planets motion around it. Then the heliocentric model must to be rejected. On the contrary, the revision of the geocentric model will be necessary. Consequently, the Sun revolves around Earth daily in 23h 56min 4.1Second from East to West.


The above part of the paper is focused on scientific arguments. It is possible the author mentions her religious views in other parts of her paper. However, it is difficult to make a judgement on her intentions and views without verifying from the actual source. There is no need to make a blanket statement about religion and science.

As Muslims, we believe in whatever Allaah سبحانه وتعالى has revealed in His Book and the teachings of His Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. He is the Creator of this universe, so He knows more about it than Einstein, Newton, Galileo or anyone else. He سبحانه وتعالى has created the stars as a beautification for the nearest heaven, as missiles to be thrown at devils and as signs by which people can be guided. There is nothing 'whacky' about this and nothing which contradicts logic or science.

But there are 1000's of problems with what she has written! How can you not see these problems? The heliocentric model does NOT fail. It is the geocentric model that completely fails to explain so many things. The Sun does NOT revolve around the Earth! It is the Earth that revolves around the Sun! Her conclusion is completely wrong. This is why the astrophysicist who read her PhD thesis was so upset that he posted an excerpt of her thesis online. It is pure BS and makes no sense! She says that there is no empirical evidence that the Earth orbits around the Sun! That is not true at all! How does she explain seasons? What she has written is NOT science. No serious person in a serious PhD program would be allowed to write and pass with such a thesis. Basically, what she is saying is that she is better than millions of scientists who have gathered tonnes evidence to prove the heliocentric model where the Earth orbits around the Sun.

Then she has the arrogance to write: "The main contention of the paper is to demonstrate the flaws in gravity and relativity, and to disprove the alleged motions of the earth that for so long time has been unjustifiably taught." So, she is basically saying here that she is better than the great scientists and that they were all fools. Of course the great Newtons and Einsteins of this world weren't perfect. Newton's theory of gravity was perfect until a few observations were made that couldn't be explained with Newton's theory of gravity, and then Einstein came along with his General Theory of Relativity, which was more complete than Newton's. Recently, gravitational waves have been observed for the first time. This is further proof of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity. One day, someone really smart will probably come along with a quantum theory of gravity which will be an even more accurate theory that will encompass and explain all the findings of Einstein's theory and more.

Come on! What were you guys all learning in school?

[Muhammad]

But there are 1000's of problems with what she has written! How can you not see these problems?

I haven't made any judgement whether she is right or wrong. I'm simply pointing out the incorrect conclusion you've drawn from limited information. Have you actually read the online version of her work?

[fromelsewhere]

You lack A LOT OF pondering on philosophical level. The person who blindly follows is not even the most dangerous form. Based on what? The person who follows blindly, is NOT using the mind. This individual(s) can be thought to THINK..to use logic, rationality and reason. They can be guided so to say by somebody who can teach them to not follow a blind way of following.

There is no logic, rationality or reason with people who follow blindly... only threats of hell.

For your education, the theory of evolution does not necessarily come into conflict with religion. It is just a theory that explains how living creatures adapt to their environment with time. Proof of it can be found all the time with bacteria that are becoming more and more drug resistant with time, which is why we are always on the lookout for stronger and stronger antibiotics.

[fromelsewhere]

I haven't made any judgement whether she is right or wrong. I'm simply pointing out the incorrect conclusion you've drawn from limited information. Have you actually read the online version of her work?

I have read enough excerpts of what she has written to know with 100% certitude that she is wrong.

[Umm♥Layth]

This thread though. I can't even.

When was the last time anyone here saw a rocket launch and delivery of an item into space (such as a satellite or supplies)?

here, let me show you:

If you skip to 10 minutes, you'll see the start of the launch and you'll see the rocket leave the earth's atmosphere. When it is in space, you can clearly see the earth's horizon and it is curved, like a sphere. Subhan Allah!

How many of you own a telescope? You can see other planets all by yourself without anyone having to tell you otherwise. All planets have a spherical shape, including the moon, which you can see every day with the naked eye. Does that look flat to anyone? ^o)

This thread reminds me of the movie "flat land" the movie lol. You guys should watch it ;)

[Muhammad]

I have read enough excerpts of what she has written to know with 100% certitude that she is wrong.

I am referring to the actual work, not conjecture that's floating around the internet. If you have access to the actual work, please provide a link. The way in which you have so boldly claimed to know the role the writer's religious views have had on her thesis makes it sound like you've read the whole thesis. It is one thing to say the conclusion is wrong. It is quite another to blame it all on religion.

[fromelsewhere]

I am referring to the actual work, not conjecture that's floating around the internet. If you have access to the actual work, please provide a link. The way in which you have so boldly claimed to know the role the writer's religious views have had on her thesis makes it sound like you've read the whole thesis.

Sometimes, you don't need to read the whole thesis of 100s of pages to know that it's BS.
Another article on the same story: https://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-...ved-in-tunisia

[Muhammad]

Sometimes, you don't need to read the whole thesis of 100s of pages to know that it's BS.

So you admit you are simply going off conjecture. How do we know this isn't a hoax? Or does something not need to be factual when you want to accuse religion of being backward?

[Simple_Person]

There is no logic, rationality or reason with people who follow blindly... only threats of hell.

For your education, the theory of evolution does not necessarily come into conflict with religion. It is just a theory that explains how living creatures adapt to their environment with time. Proof of it can be found all the time with bacteria that are becoming more and more drug resistant with time, which is why we are always on the lookout for stronger and stronger antibiotics.

Sub'han'Allah, you are accusing people who blindly following and branding yourself as if you are not following such a path. I am shocked. But yeah..go and follow that "theory of evolution does not necessarily come in to conflict with religion"- mentality.

Most probably you have not learned much about theory of evolution at all, or rather i should say..the blind belief you accuse others of, you yourself are doing.

Also, you are very eager to type a reply, yet you have not thought about it at all what i have said. Those people who only talk about threat of hell, one can make them to see and learn the way of using logic, rationality and reason. I have seen such a people and these people can agree with you and see eye to eye. These people at such a point in there life can finally start using their mind, but YOU with agnostic mentality, there is NO reasoning with you.

Why? you never..and i mean NEVER draw certain lines of this is true and that is false. Everything is doubt. Questioning things is good, i even encourage people doing so, but to a question there is a answer. A question can have a very shallow answer which to people who never ponder will be a very good answer ..atheists and well even you as you talk about evolution theory as if it has a solid basis, to people who do ponder it shows how big of a lie it is. A very firm rooted on philosophical depth answer has a firm stance with people who ponder. With you, you do not ponder..you only..WHAT IF THIS..and WHAT IF THAT. That is why if truth hits you right across your face, you still come with conclusions of..what if this and what if that. I have tried and tried with agnostics they are not sure on ANYTHING..let me repeat it again..I have tried and tried with agnostics they are NOT SURE ON ANYTHING.

Like i already said people with your mentality annoy me the MOST of ALL the people. Christians follow blindly, but they AT LEAST have chosen a firm stance with certain belief. People who follow blindly (sheep) they also have a certain stance and follow that path. With you..NOTHING is firm. You are not even sure if you yourself exist..that is how far it goes with agnostics. To me i say let people do whatever they want to do, but you to have the nerve and act as if you know something under the banner of agnosticism..on a Islam forum, that is just a insult right in to my face. That is why i take it so to say so "personally".

Go first do your research and make a firm stance when we talk about religion, then come back. Be it that you become religious or atheist, just as long as you have a firm stance on something.

[fromelsewhere]

So you admit you are simply going off conjecture. How do we know this isn't a hoax? Or does something not need to be factual when you want to accuse religion of being backward?

It is a news story that has popped up in several media, including local Tunisian media (here is an article in French from Tunisia on the scandal: http://www.jeuneafrique.com/424393/s...universitaire/). It certainly does not appear to be a hoax, and with the way that some people are reasoning on this forum, I wouldn't be surprised to see future examples of work like this. Once again, I am not accusing religion to be backwards but rather people who are going to go to great lengths to deny tonnes and tonnes of evidence that have been gathered over 1000's of years simply because it doesn't fit with what they think the Quran (or whatever other holy book) says.

EDIT: and another source (Am I relieved to learn that the Tunisian Ministry of Higher Education announced that the thesis was rejected): http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/n...75a525d62.html

[fromelsewhere]

Most probably you have not learned much about theory of evolution at all, or rather i should say..the blind belief you accuse others of, you yourself are doing.

Actually, I know a great deal about the theory of evolution. I use to be quite skeptical of it, but as I studied it, I realized that it made very good sense. You should go and study it too.

[sister herb]

Sometimes, you don't need to read the whole thesis of 100s of pages to know that it's BS.

Sometimes it is. We Muslims for example know very well what happens when some who doesn´t know much about Islam reads only few lines from the Quran, then he believes he understands the whole Islam and starts to make his own conclusions about it. We then say to him that he should at the least read the whole book first... but they usually don´t listen.

Any ways, one student creates kind of thesis. You come here to demand we all deny this claim and judge all religious people or what?

[fromelsewhere]

Sometimes it is. We Muslims for example know very well what happens when some who doesn´t know much about Islam reads only few lines from the Quran, then he believes he understands the whole Islam and starts to make his own conclusions about it. We then say to him that he should at the least read the whole book first... but they usually don´t listen.

Any ways, one student creates kind of thesis. You come here to demand we all deny this claim and judge all religious people or what?

We are not talking about the Quran here but a PhD thesis in geology. Very different.

I have never demanded that you all deny this claim or judge all religious people, just those religious people who are very dogmatic and ready to twist and manipulate facts to make it fit with what they believe to be the truth.

That is, I am arguing for "reason", "good faith", and keeping an "open mind".

[Muhammad]

It is a news story that has popped up in several media,

I am aware of this. There is still the possibility that it could be a hoax. Even if it is not a hoax, you are simply depending on the conclusion of others who are apparently depending on the conclusion of others... and that conclusion could be wrong.

and with the way that some people are reasoning on this forum, I wouldn't be surprised to see future examples of work like this.

Seeking evidence and verification is an important scientific tool. Passing on conjecture is not.

Once again, I am not accusing religion to be backwards but rather people who are going to go to great lengths to deny tonnes and tonnes of evidence that have been gathered over 1000's of years simply because it doesn't fit with what they think the Quran (or whatever other holy book) says.

Can you tell me who has said something doesn't fit with what the Qur'an says here?

[fromelsewhere]

There is still the possibility that it could be a hoax. Even if it is not a hoax, you are simply depending on the conclusion of others who are apparently depending on the conclusion of others... and that conclusion could be wrong.

Seeking evidence and verification is an important scientific tool. Passing on conjecture is not.

There is nothing that is known with 100% certainty. That being said, when many different sources come up with the same story and even the Minister of Higher Education in Tunisia talks about it, I tend to believe that it is true, just like I tend to believe that 9/11 is true and that the NASA pictures of the Earth and moon were true.

[Simple_Person]

Actually, I know a great deal about the theory of evolution. I use to be quite skeptical of it, but as I studied it, I realized that it made very good sense. You should go and study it too.

Been there done that, that is why i left atheism. Because it did not make sense. Evolution of theory one cannot say well it starts with life ..no it has to explain EVERYTHING from the start of the universe to where we are now. You cannot say well the middle part of a concept makes sense, so EVERYTHING of it is true. That is why i said you are looking at it from a shallow perspective. Atheism has scientific findings (skulls, bones etc.) this is filled with A LOT lies and what could not be sealed with lies, is filled with hope. Tada..we have created a new religion because at the end of the day it indeed is a religion, they believe in something they have not seen with their own eyes, like Muslims, Jews, Christians believe in Moses (as) separating with the permission of God the sea not seen with their eyes but believed it has happened.

Atheism is for people who want something to be true, not what reality it self says something is true. Atheism is compariable with a investigation of a murder. They see a knife, but not killer, they see the knife, but not prints, they see some blood, but not body. So some facts are there indeed. A knife..and blood. However the lies are thrown in (most probably somebody has been murdered with this knife) and somebody has killed a person and moved the body and we have to search for the body and the killer (hope).

Religion and i speak about Islam, says you have the facts. There are planets, there are trees, there are animals, bacteria, human beings, atmosphere, etc. etc. How can this make sense? The facts are there..one cannot say there are no trees..or human beings. What religion says something about these facts? Well there are some religions, but based on logic, rationality and reason some are being contradictory to the facts that we see and confirmed. So most probably those we should put aside. That is why i ended up with Islam. You see something and you search for the group that has a firm stance of the EXISTING facts..not the HOPE facts to filled it further up.

When one follows Islamic perspective, before the big bang or creation..something indeed has to exist..or we will end up with something that cannot be answered Islam confirms this. After that what we see and feel on this earth again makes sense and is in line with Islamic teachings so again not being contradictory.

I have looked in to this and tried from all perspectives ONLY Islam stays firm on this. Even from a perspective of a evil entity (Satan) existing. Following logic, rationality and reason one STILL can derive at Islam. This evil entity from Jewish and Christian and also Islamic perspective, this entity KNOWS some things should NOT be practiced and rather are forbidden. Like eating the fruit from the tree so to say. These days, for example people are away from religion as NEVER before in history of mankind. So in other words people follow exactly the path of this evil entity and HE KNOWS what is forbidden in the TRUE path.

Alcohol for example is being used and promoted all over the world, Islam being the ONLY religion saying NO!! to that.
Women are barely dress, while Islam is very strict in this..
Materialism is being promoted all over the place, while Islam is being clear on this..
Usury is being used all over the place, while Islam is being clear on this..

And there are A LOT more things that one can derive at Islam being the truth, however this ONLY is for people who ponder and who's heart is open to what exists as already facts and not what they WANT to be the truth.

[fromelsewhere]

Been there done that, that is why i left atheism. Because it did not make sense. Evolution of theory one cannot say well it starts with life ..no it has to explain EVERYTHING from the start of the universe to where we are now. You cannot say well the middle part of a concept makes sense, so EVERYTHING of it is true.

Once again, the theory of evolution does NOT claim to explain how life started out on earth. There are different hypotheses for that, but no good and clear scientific explanations thus far. Your argument is like saying that since the Theory of General Relativity does not explain how the universe started out, then it must be wrong. There is another theory for that (how the universe started out) that is called the Big Bang Theory.

One thing that we have learned, however, from the Miller-Urey experiment is that organic compounds (the most basic building blocks of life) can be made from inorganic compounds. This could give a small clue as to how life started out on earth, but once again, we cannot explain scientifically how life began on earth and we may well never have a full scientific explanation.

So go back and learn the Theory of Evolution because you have clearly not understood it well the first time you learned it.

[Muhammad]

There is nothing that is known with 100% certainty. That being said, when many different sources come up with the same story and even the Minister of Higher Education in Tunisia talks about it, I tend to believe that it is true, just like I tend to believe that 9/11 is true and that the NASA pictures of the Earth and moon were true.

You will find all sorts of stories depending on which obscure websites you visit. It is not uncommon for facts to get distorted and become outright lies. To question this does not make one a conspiracy theorist.

Let's not turn this into another debate over evolution.

[Simple_Person]

Once again, the theory of evolution does NOT claim to explain how life started out on earth. There are different hypotheses for that, but no good and clear scientific explanations thus far. Your argument is like saying that since the Theory of General Relativity does not explain how the universe started out, then it must be wrong. There is another theory for that (how the universe started out) that is called the Big Bang Theory.

One thing that we have learned, however, from the Miller-Urey experiment is that organic compounds (the most basic building blocks of life) can be made from inorganic compounds. This could give a small clue as to how life started out on earth, but once again, we cannot explain scientifically how life began on earth and we may well never have a full scientific explanation.

So go back and learn the Theory of Evolution because you have clearly not understood it well the first time you learned it.

You fail to understand my comment in every aspect. But like i said, what one sees is because one's heart is open to look, when one does not see, their heart is not open to look.

Understanding does not come from me as i am not the changer of hearts.

Good day to you.

[Bobbyflay23]

Once again, the theory of evolution does NOT claim to explain how life started out on earth. There are different hypotheses for that, but no good and clear scientific explanations thus far. Your argument is like saying that since the Theory of General Relativity does not explain how the universe started out, then it must be wrong. There is another theory for that (how the universe started out) that is called the Big Bang Theory.

One thing that we have learned, however, from the Miller-Urey experiment is that organic compounds (the most basic building blocks of life) can be made from inorganic compounds. This could give a small clue as to how life started out on earth, but once again, we cannot explain scientifically how life began on earth and we may well never have a full scientific explanation.

So go back and learn the Theory of Evolution because you have clearly not understood it well the first time you learned it.

Ok but there's a simple explanation things can't evolve unless its alive do u think this life just miraclesouly appeared on earth like here think about it a tree look at how complicated it is a seed of it just ya know came out of no where right? The life had to be placed there in order for evolution to exist because a rock doesn't start evolving now does it it needs DNA and genomes and all that stuff why can't I get up and see a rock walking? No disrespect in these questions they're just simple questions

[fromelsewhere]

You will find all sorts of stories depending on which obscure websites you visit. It is not uncommon for facts to get distorted and become outright lies. To question this does not make one a conspiracy theorist.

Let's not turn this into another debate over evolution.

I don't want to turn this into another debate on the theory of evolution, but others seem to be inclined on bringing up the subject and making false claims about it, and I feel like it is our duty to set the record straight on what evolution is and isn't so that people don't end up on this forum getting more confused than they already are.

Like I said before, we can never be 100% certain about a news story, but when it comes from many different sources, excerpts of the work have been posted online, and even a Minister makes a comment about the whole affair, it starts becoming very credible. Either way, it is unacceptable to distort facts and evidence to have it fit with what one thinks is the truth.

[fyi]

Greetings Eric H,



The person in question would not have believed that the Earth was flat (and the other weird theories she had) if it weren't for her religious views.



It certainly does not appear that she was using science, as all of the evidence points to a spherical earth that is billions of years old and that spins on its axis and orbits the sun.

When I was in elementary school I said that the sun spins and my teacher and the whole class laughed at me. Makes you think huh?

[sister herb]

It is a news story that has popped up in several media,

Now I start to wonder haven´t journalists anything real problems which they could write. There is a famine in Africa, millions of people are in danger to die and journalists lost their time (and readers time) because one student who created kind of thesis.

^o) Poor world.

[fromelsewhere]

Now I start to wonder haven´t journalists anything real problems which they could write. There is a famine in Africa, millions of people are in danger to die and journalists lost their time (and readers time) because one student who created kind of thesis.

^o) Poor world.

I think it is a real problem when people are trying to pass fake pseudo-science for real science. There is a whole anti-vaccine movement that is gaining pace in America, and it has already resulted in many measles and chickenpox outbreaks.

It is a small news story, but it still requires mention since it highlights a concerning trend: false ideas making their way to the higher education centers in Muslim countries.

[fromelsewhere]

When I was in elementary school I said that the sun spins and my teacher and the whole class laughed at me. Makes you think huh?

I guess that he or she thought that you meant that the Sun spins around the Earth, in which case you were wrong. But an elementary school kid is allowed to be wrong on these things and needs to be taught. An adult, however, should know that the Earth orbits the Sun, and that the Sun itself takes the whole solar system with it on a journey around the Milky Way at a speed of ~500,000 miles/hr or 800,000 km/hr.

[Zafran]

so somebody tried to pass a PHD claiming the earth is flat so what? - we live in an age where the most powerful man on earth doesn't believe in climate change - most of the planet doesn't believe in evolution. You have flat earth society, conspiracy theorist who think the world is ran by a shadowy organisation called the illunmanti and that the UK royal family are lizard aliens. I can go on and on.

[fromelsewhere]

so somebody tried to pass a PHD claiming the earth is flat so what? - we live in an age where the most powerful man on earth doesn't believe in climate change - most of the planet doesn't believe in evolution. You have flat earth society, conspiracy theorist who think the world is ran by a shadowy organisation called the illunmanti and that the UK royal family are lizard aliens. I can go on and on.

I would normally laugh about it, but it worries me when this happens in otherwise reputable universities. This person was writing her PhD in geology, not in some random liberal arts department. Why this worries me is that false claims such as these end up de-educating people, and with time, people end up no longer knowing what is right from what is wrong... after all, a person with a PhD said X and Y... There are a lot of people who don't believe in vaccines, for instance, and this has led to the re-emergence of some diseases. There have been recent measles and chickenpox outbreaks in the US, for instance. A lot of these outbreaks have happened in California where you have a strong influence of the "anti-vaxxers", with celebrities giving their unwarranted opinions on the vaccines and spreading false myths about vaccines causing this and that disease. Polio is another disease that would have been completely eradicated if it weren't for people in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Nigeria who were paranoid about the polio vaccines. False science may be funny, but it does have a bad, negative impact on people.

[Futuwwa]

Here is an article that shows a clear example of what happens when people try to take religious texts very literally and apply it to the laws of nature. It doesn't work! It leads to wacky ideas that have long since been proven to be false such as that the earth is flat, that it is young (a few thousands of years old), that it is immobile and fixed at the center of the universe, that the stars are mere ornaments in the sky, and so on and so forth...

http://gulfnews.com/opinion/thinkers...flat-1.2009202

"Last week, a huge scandal rocked the Tunisian and Arab scientific and educational world: a PhD student submitted a thesis declaring Earth to be flat, unmoving, young (only 13,500 years of age), and the centre of the universe..."

More like, this post shows a clear example of what happens when actual understanding of a subject is substituted for prejudice and shoehorning of events to fit an ideological, agenda-driven narrative. You have evidently no interest in what actually happened and how it was able to happen, because you're all too pleased with a simplistic "hurr durr look how stupid religion is".

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

There are a lot of people who don't believe in vaccines

I look after a gentleman who was vaccinated for whooping cough when he was a child. He went straight into a coma for three months, when he came to, he was severely brain damaged, his body is covered in sores and he has suffered horribly for the last fifty years.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric

[sister herb]

It is a small news story, but it still requires mention since it highlights a concerning trend: false ideas making their way to the higher education centers in Muslim countries.

I see, so your agenda with this news is to show that "something is rotten in the state of Denmark"? Hopely your worry is international and doesn´t focus only for Muslim countries. Poor education (and lazy students) are not religious-related.

[Simple_Person]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;


I look after a gentleman who was vaccinated for whooping cough when he was a child. He went straight into a coma for three months, when he came to, he was severely brain damaged, his body is covered in sores and he has suffered horribly for the last fifty years.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric

Brother there are people in this world that just blindly believe what governments say it is good for them. Read the comment of the OP, it looks like he is one of them. People who chooses to follow different things are kind of fishy..are automatically branded "conspiracy" nuts..

In one of the comments he said that he chooses to believe 9/11 was real and not a inside job..well i just gave up on this guy. People who really do question things including vaccination are strangers and nut-jobs. Within Islam we know that for every disease, there is a cure, however western "medicine", is not the cure that i am talking about. When a antidote is given for a disease, it should ONLY cure the disease, NOT give you side effects. I myself try to use pills and that sort of junk as little as possible, rather believe that plants and herbs are what we MUST look in to instead of trusting big pharmaceutical companies to "cure" us. But yeah..i am also being branded as a nut-job..

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

I think it is a real problem when people are trying to pass fake pseudo

Do you apply your same stringent rules to people like Richard Dawkins. Here is a link of him putting on the charm and using all his skills and knowledge to brainwash gullible children. He seems to be using all his skills to convince young children there is no God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctzWMqfgntU

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

[Serinity]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;



Do you apply your same stringent rules to people like Richard Dawkins. Here is a link of him putting on the charm and using all his skills and knowledge to brainwash gullible children. He seems to be using all his skills to convince young children there is no God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctzWMqfgntU

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

I ask Allah to make him fail and end a miserable life for what he does. ameen.

Allahu alam.

[sister herb]

I ask Allah to make him fail and end a miserable life for what he does. ameen.

Allahu alam.

You should ask Allah to show to him a light of Islam. ;)

[AhmedGassama]

Here is an article that shows a clear example of what happens when people try to take religious texts very literally and apply it to the laws of nature. It doesn't work! It leads to wacky ideas that have long since been proven to be false such as that the earth is flat, that it is young (a few thousands of years old), that it is immobile and fixed at the center of the universe, that the stars are mere ornaments in the sky, and so on and so forth...

http://gulfnews.com/opinion/thinkers...flat-1.2009202

"Last week, a huge scandal rocked the Tunisian and Arab scientific and educational world: a PhD student submitted a thesis declaring Earth to be flat, unmoving, young (only 13,500 years of age), and the centre of the universe..."

The Thesis was not accepted, it was refused...

[AhmedGassama]

The point is that some people even nowadays still believe that the Earth is flat, a few thousands of years old, at the center of the universe, and so on. There is NO reason to believe these things anymore as we have a tonne of evidence that these things are not true. People who try to use religion to justify why they believe in these things that clearly go against all the evidence we have are making a fool of themselves. Believing in a religion should not require us to suspend our sense of reasoning and logic.

Im from Tunisia dude, the Thesis was banned!

We Muslims used religion as well as science to prove that the Earth is round and the first man who designed a round map of the earth is a Muslim by the name of Al Idrissi while Europeans were living in the dark ages, but when Galileo came us with this idea (by stealing it from Muslim scholars) the Church has burn him because European were blinded by their twisted views.

While Europeans were living in the dark ages, without mentioning the dirty détails, we Muslims were living the GOLDEN AGE of Humanity and Science!

So wake up and respect Muslims and don't be like your ancestros!

Attachment 6151Attachment 6152

[fromelsewhere]

Im from Tunisia dude, the Thesis was banned!

We Muslims used religion as well as science to prove that the Earth is round and the first man who designed a round map of the earth is a Muslim by the name of Al Idrissi while Europeans were living in the dark ages, but when Galileo came us with this idea (by stealing it from Muslim scholars) the Church has burn him because European were blinded by their twisted views.

While Europeans were living in the dark ages, without mentioning the dirty détails, we Muslims were living the GOLDEN AGE of Humanity and Science!

So wake up and respect Muslims and don't be like your ancestros!

It took quite some time for her thesis to get banned... she almost had her PhD. It is a relief that it was banned in the end. While it's true that the Church held the Europeans in the Dark Ages for quite some time, the Europeans have since come out of it. Unfortunately, the opposite trend seems to be happening with the Islamic world, and that is very sad. The Ummah needs to get back on the right track!

[AhmedGassama]

It took quite some time for her thesis to get banned... she almost had her PhD. It is a relief that it was banned in the end. While it's true that the Church held the Europeans in the Dark Ages for quite some time, the Europeans have since come out of it. Unfortunately, the opposite trend seems to be happening with the Islamic world, and that is very sad. The Ummah needs to get back on the right track!

First of all, The PhD was not accepted and it found big opposition in all of Tunisia.
Second of all, i ask you a question

After all of the blood shed caused by Europeans during the modern age, where does the humanitarian difference between the Europeans of the Middle Ages and the Europeans of the Modern Age lies ?

[AhmedGassama]

The Ummah needs to get back on the right track!

In all civilizations, there are ups and downs.

But when Muslims ruled the world, they spread justice and equity.
And when European ruled the world, they spread oppression and injustice!

[fromelsewhere]

First of all, The PhD was not accepted and it found big opposition in all of Tunisia.
Second of all, i ask you a question

After all of the blood shed caused by Europeans during the modern age, where does the humanitarian difference between the Europeans of the Middle Ages and the Europeans of the Modern Age lies ?

Europeans are certainly no better (or worse) than Muslims. The bloodshed caused by the Europeans during the modern age was primarily due to 2 devastating ideologies: Nazism and Communism. Europeans have since gotten themselves rid of these stupid ideologies (there are a few exceptions, like @Karl who seems to still believe that Nazism is ok). The problem is that there is now a worrying trend in the Muslim world with so-called imams preaching hate and anti-science messages that are unacceptable. It is leading to a lot of unnecessary tensions and chaos in the Middle East between Sunnis and Shias, for instance. This is a rather recent trend, but it is there and it is not getting better. I just advocate for moderation in the sense that everyone can practice Islam to his or her level of comfort, but don't try to impose your views onto others as it doesn't work and leads to lots of societal problems and tensions. Likewise, don't deny obvious scientific evidence and facts just because you think it might be "too Western" and go against the Quran, because (1) it doesn't and (2) you make a fool of yourself and mislead others.

In all civilizations, there are ups and downs.

But when Muslims ruled the world, they spread justice and equity.
And when European ruled the world, they spread oppression and injustice!

I agree with your first statement, but your second seems a bit odd to me.
When did Muslims or Europeans "rule" the world? Muslims ruled over Muslim countries and Europeans ruled over European countries. Sometimes they ruled well and relatively justly, and sometimes they didn't.

[Muhammad]

The problem is that there is now a worrying trend in the Muslim world with so-called imams preaching hate and anti-science messages that are unacceptable. It is leading to a lot of unnecessary tensions and chaos in the Middle East between Sunnis and Shias, for instance. This is a rather recent trend, but it is there and it is not getting better.

From one PhD dissertation which has gained popularity on various websites, you are now talking about a 'worrying trend' in the Muslim world and linking this to the chaos in the Middle East? If you knew anything about the Middle East, you would know it has very little to do with supposed anti-science messages and more about political turmoil and socio-economic challenges. Before its 2011 revolution, Tunisia's spending on research and development had been steadily climbing since 2000, according to UNESCO's Science Report. According to the same report, places like Qatar and Saudi Arabia have 'seen phenomenal growth in the volume of scientific publications over the past decade.'

I just advocate for moderation in the sense that everyone can practice Islam to his or her level of comfort, but don't try to impose your views onto others as it doesn't work and leads to lots of societal problems and tensions.

What does the dissertation have to do with imposing views onto others?

Likewise, don't deny obvious scientific evidence and facts just because you think it might be "too Western" and go against the Quran,

I asked you this earlier but you didn't answer. Who has mentioned the Qur'an as a reason to reject scientific knowledge?

You are making numerous generalisations and conclusions from one piece of news. As Futuwwa pointed out above, you have no interest in this issue other than forwarding your own agenda-driven narrative.

If you really have an interest in science in the Muslim world, why don't you broaden your search? In Tunisia itself, there is Mourad Zghal, a professor at the Engineering School of Communication of Tunis, who has joined the ranks of the world's most prominent optics scientists: he has been named a Fellow of SPIE, the international society for optics and photonics. His mentor, Zohra Ben Lakhdar, was herself a recipient of the prestigious 2005 L'Oreal-UNESCO award for Women in Science.

Students from marginalized areas of Tunisia are finding a way to solve social problems and even to curb violence by using digital tools. [source]

The Youth Science Association of Tunisia (AJST) , is a Tunisian association that has set targets for the popularization of science, the dissemination of scientific culture among young people and the organization of various scientific camps.

Looking elsewhere in the Muslim world, here are 10 Malaysian Scientists Whose Research Is Making The World A Better Place.

Below are further examples:

Genetics:

Scientists co-led by the Egyptian geneticist Dr. Sherif El-Khamisy at the Center of Genomics (CG), Zewail City of Science and Technology (ZC) in Egypt, identified the first defect in a genetic pathway for individuals who suffer impaired neural function. A team of researchers led by the Iranian computational biologist, medical geneticist and evolutionary geneticist Pardis Sabeti trained doctors from the Muslim countries Nigeria, Senegal and Sierra Leone to use a sequencing and diagnostic technology to improve tracking Ebola virus's mutations. Dr. Teepu Siddique, a Pakistani neurologist succeeded with his team in discovering one of the causes of Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). The Moroccan geneticist Dr. Ismahane Elouafi was named among the 20 Most Influential Women in Science in the Islamic World under the Shapers category, and the CEO-Middle East Magazine has listed her among the World’s 100 Most Powerful Arabophone Women in the Science category.

Medicine:

A Kashmiri molecular neurotherapist and stem cells professor has successfully discovered a brain cancer treatment. He achieved this via prompting stem cells to kill brain cancer. Two Egyptian scientists created space-based crystals of two proteins of the Hepatitis C virus. The crystals which were developed in space can help in innovating new drugs to fight the virus. Dr. Sheik Umar Khan, the doctor who led Sierra Leone's fight against the worst Ebola outbreak and the one who treated more than 100 patients and dozens of health workers, died from the virus. Scientists in the Muslim country of Bashkortostan are developing a technology to make monoclonal antibodies specific to fight the Ebola virus.

Mathematics:

An Iranian mathematician became the first ever female winner of the celebrated Fields Medal. In a landmark hailed as "long overdue", Prof Maryam Mirzakhani was recognized for her work on complex geometry. Kazakhstani Muslim scientist proves the existence of a solution to Navier Stokes Equation which is deemed one of the hardest in the world.

Engineering:

The Moroccan engineering scientist Rachid Yazami became a co-winner of 2014 Draper Prize by the US's National Academy of Engineering for pioneering and leading the groundwork for today’s lithium ion battery. Three Malaysian academics were chosen among the world’s leading scientific minds, according to a report by business information firm Thomson Reuters.

Education:

According to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), four Muslim countries were ranked in the top 20 destinations all over the world for international students.

Space:

The European space probes Rosetta and Philae didn't only have Egyptian names to commemorate the Egyptian Civilization’s contributions to humanity, but four Egyptian scientists have also worked in this historic space mission. Egyptian students were ranked internationally among the top 20 teams of space engineering youth groups that participated at the University Rover Challenge (URC), in USA. In 2016, Bangladesh and Egypt are among the teams advancing to the semi-finals. A young female Kazakh inventor Nazifa Baktybayeva has been working on a real in-orbit satellite that will allow Kazakhstani students to conduct research based on materials obtained from space. This invention wasn't Nazifa's first one as in 2012 she created a model of a Venusian spacecraft that was fabricated using parts of her own old computer, headphones, a DVD disk, an umbrella and even a hanger and she calculated the craft's trajectory.

In addition, here is a list of 14 exciting and celebrated nanotechnologists from the Muslim world:

1. Dr. Mostefa El-Sayed [Nano-scale Scientist], Regents’ Professor and Julius Brown Chair, Georgia Institute of Technology, Zewail Prize, #17 on Thomson Reuters, Top 100 Chemists of the Decade
2. Dr. Ibrahim Elfadel [Designer of Nano-scale Tools], Professor, Masdar Institute, Winner of Six Invention Achievement Awards, an IBM Outstanding Technical Achievement Award and a Research Division Award
3. Dr. Muhammad Al-Sayah [Supra-molecular Chemist], Professor, American University of Sharjah and winner of Comstech Award
4. Prof. Ali Khademhosseini [Biologically inspired Engineer], Assoc. Prof., Harvard Medical School, President Obama’s Early Career Award
5. Dr. AbdolReza Simchi [Nanostructures & Biomaterials], Assoc. Prof., Sharif University, Khwarzimi International Award
6. Munir Nayfeh [Quantum Nanotechnologist], Professor, University of Illinois (UIUC), Award for Single Atom Detection
7. Sharifah Bee Abd Hamid [Catalyst and nanomaterials], Deputy Vice Chancellor, University of Malaysia
8. Dr. Aghil Yousefi Koma [Designer of Micro-vehicles], Professor, University of Tehran
9. Resit Turan [The Solarizer], Director, Center for Solar Energy, Research & Applications, Metu, Turkey
10. Muhammad Mustafa Hussain [Integrated nanotechnologist], Associate Professor, King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST), Thuwal, Saudi Arabia
11. Halimaton Hamdan [Synthesizer of Nanostructures], Director, National Nanotechnology Directorate, Mosti, Malaysia
12. Prof. Uda Hashim, Director [Micro-electronic Systems Engineer], Institute of Nano Electronic Engg, Malaysia
13. Dr. Irfan S. Ahmed [Bionanotechnologist], Executive Director, Center for Nanoscale Science and Technology, University of Illinois (UIUC)
14. Prof. Ali Eftekhari [Electrochemist & Nanoscientist], Avicenna Institute of Technology (USA)

List from: http://muslim-science.com/14-most-ex...-muslim-world/


In terms of the future, there are grassroots efforts across the Muslim world to stimulate curiosity about science among students of all ages, operating without much government support. Eminent international experts have called for comprehensive reforms to universities of the Muslim World seeking to transform societies though scientific excellence.

Let's not become blinded by one PhD dissertation and use that to make sweeping generalisations about trends in the Muslim world.

[Futuwwa]

The only reason why any random smartass secularist internet warrior has heard about this is because Muslims, in Tunisia and beyond, raised hell about it. If this incident had been business as usual in a Muslim university, nobody would ever have heard about it.

[noraina]

Europeans are certainly no better (or worse) than Muslims. The bloodshed caused by the Europeans during the modern age was primarily due to 2 devastating ideologies: Nazism and Communism. Europeans have since gotten themselves rid of these stupid ideologies (there are a few exceptions, like
@Karl
who seems to still believe that Nazism is ok). The problem is that there is now a worrying trend in the Muslim world with so-called imams preaching hate and anti-science messages that are unacceptable. It is leading to a lot of unnecessary tensions and chaos in the Middle East between Sunnis and Shias, for instance. This is a rather recent trend, but it is there and it is not getting better. I just advocate for moderation in the sense that everyone can practice Islam to his or her level of comfort, but don't try to impose your views onto others as it doesn't work and leads to lots of societal problems and tensions. Likewise, don't deny obvious scientific evidence and facts just because you think it might be "too Western" and go against the Quran, because (1) it doesn't and (2) you make a fool of yourself and mislead others.

As a Muslim, I haven't noticed any such trend. In fact, this is the first time I have come across any Muslim advocating flat earth theory. This has nothing to do with their religion, but their personal opinions. I've seen people of all kinds of backgrounds coming out with the most nonsensical pseudo-scientific theories but that doesn't mean I apply it to a whole demographic.

It seems somewhat ironic you are saying you support a science based on objective evidence and facts and yet most of what you have said here is extremely subjective and lies in personal opinion and bias.

I enjoy a good old debate on the merits of flat earth theory - but tbh the purpose of this thread seems to be using *one* thesis written by *one* Muslim to bash Islam for being anti-scientific. And this thesis has been rejected by the vast majority of the scientific community and I don't see the government of Tunisia imposing flat-earth theory on anyone.

And, the conflict in the Middle East has nothing to do with being anti-science - it is much more than that.

[AhmedGassama]

Europeans are certainly no better (or worse) than Muslims. The bloodshed caused by the Europeans during the modern age was primarily due to 2 devastating ideologies: Nazism and Communism. Europeans have since gotten themselves rid of these stupid ideologies (there are a few exceptions, like @Karl who seems to still believe that Nazism is ok). The problem is that there is now a worrying trend in the Muslim world with so-called imams preaching hate and anti-science messages that are unacceptable. It is leading to a lot of unnecessary tensions and chaos in the Middle East between Sunnis and Shias, for instance. This is a rather recent trend, but it is there and it is not getting better. I just advocate for moderation in the sense that everyone can practice Islam to his or her level of comfort, but don't try to impose your views onto others as it doesn't work and leads to lots of societal problems and tensions. Likewise, don't deny obvious scientific evidence and facts just because you think it might be "too Western" and go against the Quran, because (1) it doesn't and (2) you make a fool of yourself and mislead others.



I agree with your first statement, but your second seems a bit odd to me.
When did Muslims or Europeans "rule" the world? Muslims ruled over Muslim countries and Europeans ruled over European countries. Sometimes they ruled well and relatively justly, and sometimes they didn't.

Muslims ruled the world and they spread justice, and made the Europeans pay for the Jizya! Because they tried to Attack the Muslim countries and to rape their women...!

As for the modern era, you stated Communism and Nazism (you called them a few exception, it is like they didn't caused any damage) but what about colonisalim, manifest destiny, white man's burden, Zionism (supported by the west) and so on and on and on... and even Democracy which was used by the west to destroy our countries in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Syria...

You also stated the Imams who are preaching hate, everyone knows in the world who is financing these idiots with money and weapon! Isn't it Europan ? Don't you know that 95% of the victims of terrorism are Muslims ? It is evident that you, Europeans have Something to do with that!

Europeans are a disease! Without you, the world will live in Peace!

So the first thing that you need to do is to stick to your rotten ideologies, and stop speaking about the Quran because it is Something that you can't even understand!

[fromelsewhere]

From one PhD dissertation which has gained popularity on various websites, you are now talking about a 'worrying trend' in the Muslim world and linking this to the chaos in the Middle East? If you knew anything about the Middle East, you would know it has very little to do with supposed anti-science messages and more about political turmoil and socio-economic challenges.

What does the dissertation have to do with imposing views onto others?

Let's not become blinded by one PhD dissertation and use that to make sweeping generalisations about trends in the Muslim world.

So you want more examples? Ok. First, if I talk about the theory of evolution instead of "flat earth", I am sure that a lot of people on here will be against it. I don't want to make this thread about "evolution", but it remains that many people are against evolution simply because they think it contradicts with the notion of a perfect Creator. Read this column piece from The Guardian on the subject (2011): https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ence-evolution

Then, here is a recent example (Feb 2015) of a Saudi cleric spewing nonsense: http://english.alarabiya.net/en/vari...ary-Earth.html

The late Grand Mufti Sheikh Ibn Baaz also asserted that the Earth was stationary.

There are many more examples like this. It is just a minority of people who think this way, but still, there are influential people in the Muslim world who seem to be quite anti-science.

[fromelsewhere]

It is evident that you, Europeans have Something to do with that!

Note: I am not a " white Westerner".

[AhmedGassama]

Note: I am not a " white Westerner".

It doesn't matter who you are!

[Futuwwa]

The late Grand Mufti Sheikh Ibn Baaz also asserted that the Earth was stationary.

Do you have any idea who he is, and why he is what he is? That is, are you willfully ignorant or dishonest? It's either-or if you use him to push the narrative of the OP.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

So you want more examples? Ok. First, if I talk about the theory of evolution instead of "flat earth", I am sure that a lot of people on here will be against it.

There are a number of reasons why we are against it.

Evolution could not happen without the guidance of God, life is too complex.

Our scripture clearly says that Adam and Eve were created, so mankind do not share a common ancestor with any other species, even though our dna, is very similar to others.

And the lack of scientific detail, take the evolution of the eye. Richard Dawkins starts off by saying the eye is complex, then he reduces the complexity down to a bendy bit of cardboard, and a transparent bag of water. He even goes to say that reason tells him that eyes will evolve, and that is without the science to back it up. Take this short video of his...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb9_x1wgm7E

I don't want to make this thread about "evolution", but it remains that many people are against evolution simply because they think it contradicts with the notion of a perfect Creator.

And the science behind ToE is very shabby.

Read this column piece from The Guardian on the subject (2011): [url]https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/mar/09/islam

I also believe that Adam did not have any parents other than God.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

[fromelsewhere]

It doesn't matter who you are!

I agree that it shouldn't matter, but why do you mention "you, Europeans" if it doesn't matter to you?

[fromelsewhere]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

There are a number of reasons why we are against it.

Evolution could not happen without the guidance of God, life is too complex.

Our scripture clearly says that Adam and Eve were created, so mankind do not share a common ancestor with any other species, even though our dna, is very similar to others.

See? You reject the theory of evolution mainly because of your scriptures. Exactly what I said. People following their faith blindly and who refuse to see or consider any evidence that may appear to contradict their deeply ingrained beliefs...

[keiv]

See? You reject the theory of evolution mainly because of your scriptures. Exactly what I said. People following their faith blindly and who refuse to see or consider any evidence that may appear to contradict their deeply ingrained beliefs...

People who are against evolution are against it based on it being rubbish, not because it contradicts their beliefs. I'd even go as far as to say most people who believe in evolution today are doing so blindly, as you put it, because in the end, they really know little to nothing about their own beliefs while being able to remember a few things that were told to them by someone else. It almost feels as if it's some kind of new social movement where people are believing in it because they're being socialized. No different than the "LGBT" movement that's going on.

[fromelsewhere]

People who are against evolution are against it based on it being rubbish, not because it contradicts their beliefs. I'd even go as far as to say most people who believe in evolution today are doing so blindly, as you put it, because in the end, they really know little to nothing about their own beliefs while being able to remember a few things that were told to them by someone else. It almost feels as if it's some kind of new social movement where people are believing in it because they're being socialized. No different than the "LGBT" movement that's going on.

So how do you explain antibiotic resistance, an example of microevolution where the "fittest" bacteria survive and go on to reproduce?

[Abz2000]

there is no use bundling Muslims with the vatican system when it comes to scientific issues, it appears like a sleight of the hand which secularist social engineers pull with the psychological association elicitited via the term "religion" . The term used in Islam is way of life (deen), which is also applied to other systems by Allah in the Quran, ch yusuf 12 mentions - deen al malik, is translated as law/system of the king in this context since the egyptian system of the time didn't allow him to permanently take his brother by force, he got his brothers to accept it via consensus.
Anyways, if the student says the earth is flat, it's likely not based on any sound Islamic sources, and since Allah doesn't require people to believe that the earth is flat, we can be assured that this is another one of those freak anomalies, staged real events, or the now famous "fake news" pieces.
The scholars who studied and professed Islam passed the major spherical earth debates by at least the 14th century as can be seen here:

-

Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 H / 1328 CE), may Allah be merciful with him, in his famous treatise, ar-Risalah al-'Arshiyah, refutes the position of the neo-Platonic philosophers who identified Allah's Throne with the ninth celestial sphere (Majmu'ul-Fatawa, Vol. 6, pp. 546-ff). In the course of his response, Ibn Taymiyah discusses the question of the earth is it round or flat? He writes:[That] celestial bodies are round (istidaaratul-aflaak) - as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians (ahlul-hay'ah wal-hisab) - it is [likewise] the statement of the scholars of the Muslims; as Abul-Hasan ibn al-Manaadi, Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm, Abul-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi and others have quoted: that the Muslim scholars are in agreement [that all celestial bodies are round]. Indeed Allah - taala - has said: And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak. Ibn Abbas says: A falaka like that of a spinning wheel.Ibn Taymiyah continues: The [word] falak [in the Arabic language] means that which is round. From which is the statement [of the Arabs]: <> (Vol. 6, pp. 566-567)In an earlier passage (Vol. 6, pp. 565-566), Ibn Taymiyah discusses why those on the other side of the earth are not below us, just like we are not below them. He writes:As for the other side of the earth it is surrounded by water. [Note: Admittedly, Ibn Taymiyah - as all Muslim scholars of his day- were not aware of the Americas and believed that the Old World was encompassed by an ocean.] There are no human beings or anything like that [on that side]. Even if we were to imagine that people were on that side of the earth, such individuals would still be on the face of the earth. Those on that side of the earth are not below those who are on this side; just like those on this side are not below those on that side. For as all spherical bodies surround a center point (markaz), no one side of a spherical body is under the other, nor is the north pole under the south [Note: Unlike Western maps, Muslim cartographers (map-makers) would draw the world with the south-side up.] or vice versa.In another passage (Vol. 5, p. 150) Ibn Taymiyah clearly states the earth is spherical.Significantly Abu Ya'la in his work Tabaqatal-Hanabilah (Biographical Entries of the Hanabali Scholars) quotes the unanimous consensus (ijma) of all Muslim scholars that the earth is round.This consensus was mentioned by the scholars of the second generation (the students of the Prophet's Companions) and was based upon Ibn Abbas' explanation to 21:33 (previously cited) and other evidences.The later belief of Muslim scholars, like as-Suyuti (died 911 AH / 1505 CE) that the earth is flat represents a deviation from this earlier opinion.

source cited in article:-thetruereligion.org

http://www.iupui.edu/~msaiupui/earlymuslimcon.htm

See also:

https://islamqa.info/en/118698

Another fact that distinguishes Islam from paganism, nationalism, the queen's religion (userers' bank holy-days and sunday sabth (though she'll admit that sabth means seventh and that sunday is the first day of the week lol) etc is that once a peraon reaches the age to be able to reason, their primary reason for claiming to be a Muslim believer whilst also expecting/hoping to achieve paradise cannot be "it's what my ancestors did", "it's where I live", "coz the king/president said so" or "they forced me". One can only be a mature Muslim believer because they accepted the existence of Allah, the Prophethood of Muhammad, and the truthfulness of the Quran - through reason. i.e a person cannot believe unless they are convinced Of the truth of something.


Anyone who is compelled and accepts the laws of Islam despite their doubts is at most a Muslim due to the social necessity that exists in community living - especially in metropolitan areas (the word police comes from metropolis as opposed to "nomad" or "bedouin"), and such a person is not a believer in Islam - obviously - so they would have to be a bit warped to be discarding their reason when writing their thesis and claiming to be Muslim , unless other factors such as tribal zeal or other self interest such as debating a loon who'll argue forever gets in their way.

But we all know that it's non-Muslims who deceive themselves now via bi-polarity, falsehood, forgery, tyrannical censorship, metamphetamines (crank), cocaine, antidepressant mood lifters, and alcohol. No point trying to use parrot tactics to blame the innocent for what the guilty do. It's actually ironic lol.

[fromelsewhere]

Anyways, if the student says the earth is flat, it's likely not based on any sound Islamic sources, and since Allah doesn't require people to believe that the earth is flat, we can be assured that this is another one of those freak anomalies, staged real events, or the now famous "fake news" pieces.
The scholars who studied and professed Islam passed the major spherical earth debates by at least the 14th century as can be seen here:

-


See also:

https://islamqa.info/en/118698

But we all know that it's non-Muslims who deceive themselves now via bi-polarity, falsehood, forgery, tyrannical censorship, metamphetamines (crank), cocaine, antidepressant mood lifters, and alcohol. No point trying to use parrot tactics to blame the innocent for what the guilty do. It's actually ironic lol.

Some verses from the Quran can be misinterpreted to mean that the Earth is flat: https://islamqa.info/en/211655
Although the vast majority of scholars agree that the earth is round, there have been a few (lesser scholars) who do not. They have been misinforming the public.
I think this may be the reason why the student wrote such a nonsense PhD thesis.

As for your last sentence... ;D;D;D

[Abz2000]

-

Some verses from the Quran can be misinterpreted to mean that the Earth is flat: https://islamqa.info/en/211655

The ceiling fan spins over my head very fast, just because the baby or cat thinks it's for entertainment or decor doesn't make it so.

Although the vast majority of scholars agree that the earth is round, there have been a few (lesser scholars) who do not. They have been misinforming the public.

when scholars, students, scientists and laymen come to a better understanding of an issue they are required by God to put aside their ego, accept the truth and correct their opinions. The only situation in which a person is allowed to knowingly misinform anybody is if the person is in a state of conflict with the unjust untruthful and insincere and needs to divert them in order to promote the truth, or is disorienting people who are accustomed to blind and unreasonable following in order to make them question and think for themselves and thereby come to the truth (Malware definition).

I think this may be the reason why the student wrote such a nonsense PhD thesis.

Since we live in the age of satellite orbits and live global communication, and the student is at degree level, It is possible that the so-called student is a shill like those trangressors who know the truth - yet go around disputing with people in order to make them stumble in order to fall and not get up and so die in a state of wrongdoing. But Allah will perfect His light however much the rejecters dislike it.


As to my last sentence, :D you know that Muslims are on the truth and will succeed despite your unreasonable jealousy. :D :D :D

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

See? You reject the theory of evolution mainly because of your scriptures. Exactly what I said.

No, you are making a wrong assumption, you do not know the facts. I knew about the ToE for many years before I found my faith. I spent about three years searching for a faith, and in that time I also read many books on ToE and cosmology. Reason and critical thinking led me to believe in God, and to doubt the science behind evolution.

The person who made me doubt evolution the most was Richard Dawkins and his anger against God, who he clearly says does not exist. Just one example is the evolution of the eye, he is dishonest by saying the eye is as simplistic as a bendy piece of cardboard and a bag of water. Dawkin's evolution seems to exist in his imagination, because he keeps saying things like imagine if this happened, there is no hard evidence. He ignores the nervous system and the brain, which would have to evolve in stages alongside the eye. He ignores the evolution of limbs that would have to respond to information from the eye.

I am open to a more detailed explanation as to how the eye might have evolved.

People following their faith blindly and who refuse to see or consider any evidence that may appear to contradict their deeply ingrained beliefs...

The same could be said for people following the ToE blindly; and who refuse to see or consider any evidence that may appear to contradict their deeply ingrained beliefs.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric

[noraina]

So many people bash those with strong religious faith as having 'bind belief'. No doubt that's true in some cases, but I have heard many times people who have a strong faith in science having little understanding of the theories they support, or how the scientists came to those conclusions with their methods and analysis. And a lot of the time they can't even think of there being any conflicting theory, heaven forbid, otherwise the sky comes falling down.

I hear a lot religion being a 'closed belief system' and science being an 'open belief system'. It's not so black and white.

Science has been invaluable to the understanding of the world and has really improved our standards of living - but in some ways it has replaced religious belief in secular societies. People like Darwin seem to have 'prophet' status and his written works given the importance of a scripture.

I don't know why we've been taught religion and science are in mortal combat with each other. They are both two approaches to knowledge and complement on another beautifully. Yes, there may be disagreements, but that doesn't mean we have to pit them against each other all the time.

[Abz2000]

The person who made me doubt evolution the most was Richard Dawkins and his anger against God, who he clearly says does not exist. Just one example is the evolution of the eye, he is dishonest by saying the eye is as simplistic as a bendy piece of cardboard and bag of water. Dawkin's evolution seems to exist in his imagination, because he keeps saying things like imagin if this happened, there is no hard evidence. He ignores the nervous system and the brain, which would have to evolve in stages alongside the eye. He ignores the evolution of limbs that would have to respond to information from the eye.


I am open to a more detailed explanation as to how the eye might have evolved.

Greetings Eric,
There are some people who seek and follow the truth wherever they find it, these are the ones who find success and will inevitably find God.
There are some people who came to doubt God due to finding that some of the things they came to be certain of appeared to conflict with what they believed was God's stance, whereas in actuality, the conflict was with the opinions of scholars and researchers who were only able to work with the data available to them at ther time, just as doctors of the past and present should have practised and shoud practice based on the data available to them in full sincerity and truth.
Then there are others (transgressors) who know the truth, yet use any fact they can find that conflicts with an opinion of a scholar, or appears to conflict with the word of God - to cause doubts and fitnah, upon these is the wrath of Allah and the curse of those who curse unless/until they repent. Allah tells us of their mentality and methods in the Quran:

57. When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)!


58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?"
This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation:
yea, they are a contentious people.


59. He was no more than a servant:
We granted Our favour to him,
and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.


60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth.


61. And it shall be a Sign of the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about it, but follow Me: this is a Straight Way.

From Quran, Chapter 43



Regarding the eye, now i come to my personal opinion based on the facts i have available to me (i myself have spent timethinking about the complex nature of the eye and it's functions in relation to the nervous system and used to disputeToE based on it, well, my opinions have somewhat changed and there's no point pretending the truth is false just because of my ego and knowledge that i feel sheepish when i look back and recall the days when i thought that major scholars of texts who lived 1000 years ago who had never studied biology in depth couldn't possibly have been wrong - even when lots of current data was available to raise questions.....since then (as i thought) it would mean that i was following something wrong, and would be giving the "opponents" a victory......actually, it's only God who always wins and it's humans who always find something whichthey never considered properly sometimes proves them wrong.....

The eye is a sensory organ and there are many creatures who dont have eyes, but feel around or who have a basic or advanced method of sensing the sunlight, and other data in their surroundings such as temp, humidity, sound, vibration etc computed with past perception, there are also creatures with limbs who see infrared, and others that can only see inverted or black and white or even a whole load more - or less- colours in the spectrum.
There are also people who see or notice different things or hazards with eyes and brain processing, or think they see things that are actually something else, such as a shrivelled leaf that looks like a piece of sh&t (lol) which others don't see, but the one who thinks they saw it scream and cause a panic or run off or take a different route and it changes their life for better or for worse.
Here is an example of how the nervous system, digestive system, limbs etc can work with just two or three hairs used as sensory antenae, two to recognise a moving creature, and another to be sure before it releases digestive enzymes:



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JQuFK1M2lqA

But, of course, Allah knows best.

(If a scholar or scientist of the 8th century claimed that the earth was most likely flat because they sincerely believed it to be so, there should normally be no reason to doubt their sincerity or intellect since ships of the time were oar driven by hand and didn't do trips around the world in eighty days- i think. however, if they claim it to be the case now, i would give them a weird look and wonder if they're joking.

The same could be said for people following the ToE blindly; and who refuse to see or consider any evidence that may appear to contradict their deeply ingrained beliefs.

It certainly could, and each individual is duty bound to research and learn within the bounds of justice and good conduct from the cradle to the grave, and those who know more are duty bound to convey to those who know less - where they are able to.

In the spirit of searching for God,


Eric

When we sincerely search and accept truth, we'll find God there, and we'll realise that His thoughts are way above our thoughts (if they can even be called thoughts that is), and that His ways are way above our ways. and that He already knew before we even began to find out.

So many people bash those with strong religious faith as having 'bind belief'. No doubt that's true in some cases, but I have heard many times people who have a strong faith in science having little understanding of the theories they support, or how the scientists came to those conclusions with their methods and analysis. And a lot of the time they can't even think of there being any conflicting theory, heaven forbid, otherwise the sky comes falling down.

I hear a lot religion being a 'closed belief system' and science being an 'open belief system'. It's not so black and white.

Science has been invaluable to the understanding of the world and has really improved our standards of living - but in some ways it has replaced religious belief in secular societies. People like Darwin seem to have 'prophet' status and his written works given the importance of a scripture.

I don't know why we've been taught religion and science are in mortal combat with each other. They are both two approaches to knowledge and complement on another beautifully. Yes, there may be disagreements, but that doesn't mean we have to pit them against each other all the time.

I see no reason to accept Islam and eemaan, and science as two different things -since science is research of the facts, and we come to the truth via facts, and we find Allah via sincere and true reasoning.
When Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq (the confirmer of truth) accepted that Muhammad :saws: Is the Messenger of God, what information did he use to come to that conclusion other than his faculties of intellectual reasoning based on the data he had and sincere acceptance of the conclusions he truthfully came to? did he consult a book of his ancestors or a scholar of Makkah to know whether he should accept what he already believed to be the truth? is that not scientific calculation made with the information contained within the billions of neurons in his braIn?
The same goes for the other sahabah, whether, ex - pagan, atheist, or people of the book.......
And us, do we consult the Quran because our forefathers did so or is it because our rational scientific reasoning leads us to believe that it is the truth? do we not upgrade our stance on what our forefathers taught us based on what we now know to be the truth or do we claim that they could never have been wrong on any given topic?

Why do governments make edicts (fatwas) for the masses (re-legion) regarding our health - based on scienctific research? why did the Allah :swt: and His messenger :saws: tell us to wash ourselves when the observation about fungi, mould, and infection etc are scientific observations about chemical / biological composition of skin, blood, bacteria, virus etc, why mix the "two"??? why mix biology and chemistry??? - unless, there is no real two as in completely separate but many parts of a consistent whole.

..... The things which are in real conflict are truth and falsehood. When they clash, truth knocks falsehood out of the stadium since the two cannot co-exist in harmony.

[Serinity]

Some atheists are just mad at religion, they blame God for their loss of lives, wealth, health, and blame God when in discomfort.. In reality they have no understanding of why it happens.

They think they know better than Allah. In reality, most are arrogant and ignorant. Because none except the ignorant end up in Hell.

[Abz2000]

Here is some information on how a respected and intellegent scholar of the past considered reason as the primary tool

There were some jurists who thought rulings derived through analogy could contradict a ruling derived from the Qur'an and the authentic hadith.[23] However, Ibn Taymiyyah disagreed because he thought a contradiction between the definitive canonical texts of Islam, and definitive reason was impossible[23] and that this was also the understanding of the salaf.[126]

Racha el-Omari says that on an epistemological level, Ibn Taymiyyah considered the Salaf to be better than any other later scholars in understanding the agreement between revelation and reason.[126]

One example for this is the use of analogy in the Islamic legal principle of maslaha (public good) about which Ibn Taymiyya believed, if there were to be any contradiction to revelation then it is due to a misunderstanding or misapplication of the concept of utility.[44][127]

He said that to assess the utility of something, the criteria for benefit and harm should come from the Qur'an and sunnah, a criteria which he also applied to the establishment of a correct analogy.[44][127]





An example of Ibn Taymiyyah's use of analogy was in a fatwa forbidding the use of hashish one the grounds that it was analogous to wine, and users should be given 80 lashes in punishment. "Anyone who disagreed was an apostate, he added, whose corpse ought not to be washed or given a decent burial."[119]






Reason (`Aql)Edit






Issues surrounding the use of reason ('Aql) and rational came about in relation to the attributes of God for which he faced much resistance.[44] At the time the Islamic scholars thought the attributes of God as stated in the Qur'an were contradictory to reason so sought other explanations instead.[44]
Ibn Taymiyyah believed that reasons itself validated the entire Qur'an as being reliable and in light of that he argued, if some part of the scripture was to be rejected then this would render the use of reason as an unacceptable avenue through which to seek knowledge.[44]
He thought that the most perfect rational method and use of reason was contained within the Qur'an and sunnah and that the theologians of his time had used rational and reason in a flawed manner.[44]



......Ibn Taymiyyah censured the scholars for blindly conforming to the precedence of early jurists without any resort to the Qur'an and Sunnah. He contended that although juridical precedence has its place, blindly giving it authority without contextualization, sensitivity to societal changes, and evaluative mindset in light of the Qur'an and Sunnah can lead to ignorance and stagnancy in Islamic Law. Ibn Taymiyyah likened the extremism of Taqlid (blind conformity to juridical precedence or school of thought) to the practice of Jews and Christians who took their rabbis and ecclesiastics as gods besides God. In arguing against taqlid, he said the salaf, who in order to better understand and live according to the commands of God, had to make ijtihad using the scriptural sources.[41] The same approach, in his view, was needed in modern times.[41]


Ibn Taymiyyah believed that the best role models for Islamic life were the first three generations of Islam (Salaf); which constitute Muhammad's companions, referred to in Arabic as Sahaba (first generation), followed by the generation of Muslims born after the death of Muhammad known as the Tabi'un (second generation) which is then followed lastly by the next generation after the Tabi'un known as Tabi' Al-Tabi'in (third generation). Ibn Taymiyyah gave precedence to the ideas of the Sahaba and early generations, over the founders of the Islamic schools of jurisprudence.[30] For Ibn Taymiyyah it was the Qur'an, the sayings and practices of Muhammad and the ideas of the early generations of Muslims that constituted the best understanding of Islam. Any deviation from their practice was viewed as bid‘ah, or innovation, and to be forbidden. He also praised and wrote a commentary on some speeches of Abdul-Qadir Gilani.[132]He criticized the views and actions of the Rafaiyah.




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Taymiyyah

[anatolian]

You shall not base your scientific knowledge on what you understand from the scripture...

[Serinity]

:salam:

While we should indeed use reason to come to the Truth, etc. There are things (like the existence of Angels) we believe because Allah said so.

Or a ruling we don't understand. If Allah :swt: showed us the Akhira, or the Angels, with our own eyes. Where would the test be?

What would Faith then be? It would not be about Imaan anymore, because it then would become certain knowledge of the eye. Although we are certain of it, with no doubt in it (we should have no doubt and full certainty)

Allah does not show Himself, because that is part of our test. Of course we should use reason, and there is no doubt about it, it is impossible for reason / logic / science to contradict Islam.

Allahu alam.

[anatolian]

:salam:

While we should indeed use reason to come to the Truth, etc. There are things (like the existence of Angels) we believe because Allah said so.

Or a ruling we don't understand. If Allah :swt: showed us the Akhira, or the Angels, with our own eyes. Where would the test be?

What would Faith then be? It would not be about Imaan anymore, because it then would become certain knowledge of the eye. Although we are certain of it, with no doubt in it (we should have no doubt and full certainty)

Allah does not show Himself, because that is part of our test. Of course we should use reason, and there is no doubt about it, it is impossible for reason / logic / science to contradict Islam.

Allahu alam.

Of course but the existance of Angels is not a scientific knowledge. Angels are not natural beings and thus cannot be explained by the natural sciences. They are spiritual beings and must be understood by spiritual sciences. It is all about faith.

[fromelsewhere]

:salam:

While we should indeed use reason to come to the Truth, etc. There are things (like the existence of Angels) we believe because Allah said so.

Or a ruling we don't understand. If Allah :swt: showed us the Akhira, or the Angels, with our own eyes. Where would the test be?

What would Faith then be? It would not be about Imaan anymore, because it then would become certain knowledge of the eye. Although we are certain of it, with no doubt in it (we should have no doubt and full certainty)

Allah does not show Himself, because that is part of our test. Of course we should use reason, and there is no doubt about it, it is impossible for reason / logic / science to contradict Islam.

Allahu alam.

Anyone can "believe" under the right circumstances, that is barely a test, and I don't see how "believing" makes you a better person. There are a lot of people who claim to "believe" and then who go on to do evil things.
What is much more difficult to do is to take these beliefs and actually go out of your way to do good things.

Either way, I fear we are straying off the topic.

[Serinity]

Anyone can "believe" under the right circumstances, that is barely a test, and I don't see how "believing" makes you a better person. There are a lot of people who claim to "believe" and then who go on to do evil things.
What is much more difficult to do is to take these beliefs and actually go out of your way to do good things.

Either way, I fear we are straying off the topic.

But what about believing when you lose your health wealth and all that which you have been blessed with? It is easy to believe when everything goes your way, but what about when everything seems to go against you?

Yeah, I think we are straying off the topic.

[fromelsewhere]

But what about believing when you lose your health wealth and all that which you have been blessed with? It is easy to believe when everything goes your way, but what about when everything seems to go against you?

Yeah, I think we are straying off the topic.

Call me weird but I tend to believe more in times of distress, as it is very reassuring to believe in a God that hears and answers prayers.

[Abz2000]

I base my scientific knowledge primarily on the Quran and believe in angels through reason, and that is the correct method in Allah's sight since I believe in Allah through reason and accept the absolute truth of the guidance contained in the Quran and through reason, accept the Quran to be the highest textual authority.

It would be useful at this point to look at the different methods of reasoning that Abu Bakr and Umar (may Allah be pleased with them both) used when the people began to mutiny at hudaybiyyah. Abu Bakr's method of reasoning prevailed since he submitted it to what he believed through reason to be the firmest foundation.
We also notice that although Umar tended to be more pragmatic in the worldly sense when it came to legislation, whereas Abu Bakr was more cautious to follow the Prophet :saws: 's method to the letter, Abu Bakr's method was more deep seated and enduring since his faith in what the Prophet :saws: said and did was totally consuming to the extent of denying his own heart and mind.
Still, Umar was also correct in his methods and his opinions often overcame Abu Bakr's during the prophet :saws: time and dueing the khilafah of Abu Bakr. We also see the Prophet :saws: wisdom in choosing them both as his primary advisers.

Umar further said, `I went to Abu Bakr and said: O Abu Bakr! Isn't he truly Allah's Prophet' He replied, `Yes.' I said, `Is not our cause just and the cause of our enemy unjust' He said, `Yes.' I said, `Then why should we be humble in our religion' He said, `O you man! Indeed, he is Allah's Messenger and he does not disobey his Lord, and He will make him victorious. Adhere to him for, by Allah, he is on the right path.' I said, `Was he not telling us that we would go to the Ka`bah and perform Tawaf around it' He said, `Yes, but did he tell you that you would go to the Ka`bah this year' I said, `No.' He said, `You will go to the Ka`bah and perform Tawaf around it.' Az-Zuhri said, "`Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said, `I performed many good deeds as expiation for the improper questions I asked them."

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...k=view&id=2005

See also:
https://www.--------------/unschoole...nt-hudaybiyyah


I think it's on topic since it's about using reason.

[fromelsewhere]

I base my scientific knowledge primarily on the Quran and believe in angels through reason, and that is the correct method in Allah's sight since I believe in Allah through reason and accept the absolute truth of the guidance contained in the Quran and through reason, accept the Quran to be the highest textual authority.

I am not sure what you mean by this. There are plenty of scientific theories that are not contained in the Quran (the vast majority, I daresay). So, by your logic, are you ok with scientific theories as long as they don't go against the Quran, or do you believe that any "scientific knowledge" that is not contained in the Quran is not valid?

What do you think about the following established scientific theories:
- special relativity
- general relativity
- quantum mechanics (including concepts such as the uncertainty principle)
- the Big Bang

As far as I know, none of these are contained in the Quran. Once again, the Quran was not meant to be a book about science.

I am not at all a fan of this publication, but I do agree very much with this particular article (a good read): http://www.newstatesman.com/books/20...lim-scientific

"According to some Muslim scholars, everything from genetics to robotics and space travel is described in the Quran. What nonsense."

[Abz2000]

Some atheists are just mad at religion, they blame God for their loss of lives, wealth, health, and blame God when in discomfort.. In reality they have no understanding of why it happens.

They think they know better than Allah. In reality, most are arrogant and ignorant. Because none except the ignorant end up in Hell.

But when good (times) came, they said, "This is due to us;" When gripped by calamity, they ascribed it to evil omens connected with Moses and those with him! Behold! in truth the omens of evil are theirs in Allah's sight, but most of them do not understand!

Quran 7:131


Then there are among the people such as say, "We believe in Allah"; but when they suffer affliction in (the cause of) Allah, they treat men's oppression as if it were the Wrath of Allah! And if help comes (to thee) from thy Lord, they are sure to say, "We have (always) been with you!" Does not Allah know best all that is in the hearts of all creation?



And Allah most certainly knows those who believe, and as certainly those who are Hypocrites.

Quran 29:10-11

[Abz2000]

I am not sure what you mean by this. There are plenty of scientific theories that are not contained in the Quran (the vast majority, I daresay). So, by your logic, are you ok with scientific theories as long as they don't go against the Quran, or do you believe that any "scientific knowledge" that is not contained in the Quran is not valid?

What do you think about the following established scientific theories:
- special relativity
- general relativity
- quantum mechanics (including concepts such as the uncertainty principle)
- the Big Bang

As far as I know, none of these are contained in the Quran. Once again, the Quran was not meant to be a book about science.

I am not at all a fan of this publication, but I do agree very much with this particular article (a good read): http://www.newstatesman.com/books/20...lim-scientific

"According to some Muslim scholars, everything from genetics to robotics and space travel is described in the Quran. What nonsense."

If the oceans were turned into ink wherewith to write the words of my Lord, the oceans would be empty but the words wouldn't be completely written.
I use the Quran as the foundation and guiding light, since I have come to understand that the Quran is the word of God and His final revealed guiding book until the last hour, and that God knows everything, it is perfectly logical then -and the wisest decision one can make- to use the Quran as one's reference when evaluating, accepting, and rejecting information.
And it's a lot more reliable than bbc, cnn, fox news, or anything else I've found so far.

And actually the Quran shapes the way a person thinks, perceives, judges, and reasons, regardless of the subject or number of subjects at hand, it gives you a baseline and a critereon for discerning truth from falsehood, justice and injustice, good and evil. One of the descriptions of the Quran is Al Furqaan.
However, if a person has a warped sense of juastice or takes donald trump as his ultimate authority and judge, it will be difficult to see anything other than "tales of the ancients" when one reads it, actually it will repel them since it condemns and approves on a very deep level within the soul.
I'm sure donald trump doesn't know much about relativity and quantum mechanics, but you still accepted him above the scholars of those subjects to the extent that he can fund or ban their research projects.......it's actually atheist politics and science that don't go well since atheism is based on denial of the truth.

[fromelsewhere]

I'm sure donald trump doesn't know much about relativity and quantum mechanics, but you still accepted him above the scholars of those subjects to the extent that he can fund or ban their research projects.......it's actually atheist politics and science that don't go well since atheism is based on denial of the truth.

;) My friend, you sound very confused, and you have not answered my question.

[Zafran]

;) My friend, you sound very confused, and you have not answered my question.

oh if you keep replying to him your in for a long ride lol.

[Serinity]

The Quran is a book of signs and contain undeniable scientific facts.

[Abz2000]

I am not confused with respect to your questions one bit and had assumed that a general answer wouldbe easy for you to comprehend sincei am uaing a small phone and researching is a little cumbersome since i'ts not all in front of me on a large screen, I will however do my reasonable best given the circumstances:

I am not sure what you mean by this. There are plenty of scientific theories that are not contained in the Quran (the vast majority, I daresay). So, by your logic, are you ok with scientific theories as long as they don't go against the Quran, or do you believe that any "scientific knowledge" that is not contained in the Quran is not valid?

If a scientific theory is real beyond reasonable doubt, I would not expect it to be contradicted by the Quran, but rather pointed at or alluded to via a hidden method as seen in the verse " likeness of jesus and adam" , and if it was contradicted with certainty, i would first question and further research the validity of the theory/finding, wait for more information, ask others who may know, then revise my stance on any book if it was found to be incompatible with truth, since it is impossible to believe that that a book is without mistake whilst at the same time believing that it is false and wrong, and I would expect people from all ways of life and adherents of all books to do the same, the Quran contains such challenges and i am certain that it will dominate all other texts 'til the last day.

I would however practice caution since when I was ignorant of the Quran, a person had told me that it was wrong since it says that sperm comes from between the backbone and the ribs whereas is is manufactured in the testicles, and it was only after a few years when I read the Quran in english for myself that I realized that it is not the Quran but the faulter that was flawed, since the rhythmic language of the Quran doesn't use commas, but sometimes joins, and sometimes separates concepts in verse, in this case it was a separate verse:
let man look at from what he is created,
is created from a fluid ejected,
Proceeds from between the backbone and the ribs.


Since I was near the end of the Quran I had already realised that the ribs part was referring to the fetus in the female....
Duh, and to think I doubted based on the words of a denier.

What do you think about the following established scientific theories:
- special relativity

Special relativity implies a wide range of consequences, which have been experimentally verified,[3]-includinglength contraction,-time dilation,relativistic mass,-mass–energy equivalence,-a universal speed limit-andrelativity of simultaneity. It has replaced the conventional notion of an absolute universal time with the notion of a time that is dependent on reference frame and-spatial-position.-


The Quran gives weight to the possibility of theory being true through the following verses:

Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
Quran 22:47

The angels and the Rooh [Jibreel] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years’
Quran 70:4

- general relativity

Albert Einstein's-general-theory ofrelativity-is one of the towering achievements of 20th-century physics. Published in 1916, it explains that what we perceive as the force of gravity in fact arises from the curvature of space and time. Einstein proposed that objects such as the sun and the Earth change this geometry.

I am not at all well read on the topic so I will leave that to someone who can answer if it requires an answer or if I read up on it further and if I come back to this thread after that, but since I know that no two verses are coupled in the quran without reason andthat in chapter 55 the fact that the stars and trees prostrate is mentioned immediately after the mention of the sun and moon following computed courses, the subject may be of interest. But my God given faculties of reasoning indicate to me that this is true anyway since the gravity of the moon has an effect on tides and possibly wven on womens menstrual periods, and anyways, since the planets revolve arount the sun, it is obviously using inertia to keep it in orbit, and since the earth is a bi-polar magnet with n and s poles and is spinning whilst orbiting, and the sun realeases electromagnetic radiation, it obviously has a reletionship when it comes to gravity.

- quantum mechanics (including concepts such as the uncertainty principle)

Later if relevant, battery at six percent.

- the Big Bang

Do not the rejecters see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Quran 21:30

:We have made the heavens with Our own hands and We expanded it.
Quran 51:47

The above verses coupled with newtons observed law of motion without an external force to impede it, along qith the way satellites an space debris orbit should be sufficient to theorise that the universe was zero in size, then existed in and is expanding, but wether it was a gentle sundering or a big bang, I don't know, God knows, but the theory is again given possible credibility.

As far as I know, none of these are contained in the Quran. Once again, the Quran was not meant to be a book about science.

As far as I know, most of the above topics are alluded to and once again, my reasoning tells me that an illiterate shepherd -although intellectually gifted- who lived 1400 years ago could not have suddenly come to these conclusions by himself. My reasoning tells me that God is demonstrating His knowledge before we even begin to theorise, just so we don't get big headed when we find the equation to a law that He commanded the pen to write and willed the celestial bodies -which He created- to submit to in the first place.
A bit silly to find that two hydrogens and one oxygen make water, then get chuffed and think yourself to be cleverer than the one qho made hydrogen and oxygen and wrote the law that makes them combine to water eons before the dinosaurs even existed. Even sillier to find out that h two o equals water and then claim that you don't need Him anymore, immature actually, qorse than a child who learns to suck milk or read the alphabet and thinks he doesn't need mum or dad any more.

I am not at all a fan of this publication, but I do agree very much with this particular article (a good read): http://www.newstatesman.com/books/20...lim-scientific

"According to some Muslim scholars, everything from genetics to robotics and space travel is described in the Quran. What nonsense."

Talk to the hand.

[fromelsewhere]

^ I think we are going around in circles now. As I have already said at least 100 times now, if the Quran contained scientific evidence, people should have been able to derive theories such as The General Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics from the Quran. Instead, it is only much after the facts that people take vague verses from the Quran and claim that they prove this or that theory. Let's stop being dishonest with ourselves and others, and please realize that religion and science should not be confused and mixed together because they are not the same. The Quran is a book of faith, not a book of science.

[Abz2000]

It has become obvious by now that some people are contentious and narrow minded, and that even if they saw angels ascending and descending through a portal or dead were raised and made to speak to them, their lusts and evil desires would overwhem them and cause them to reject and deny the obvious truth that their hearts are convinced of.

It is not you they reject, it is the signs of Allah which the wicked strive against.

Maybe go through the above few posts and use your God given reasoning to realize how trollish and immature the last post was, maybe ask a few sound minded and truthful people to evaluate.
Or maybe go take a degree in david beckam studies since that too is possible.....

And when the ignorant address them, they say salaaman salaama.

Repent.

[Muhammad]

In line with the announcement here, this thread is now closed.

Ramadhan is a time when Muslims strengthen their connection with the Qur'an. Let us use this time to study and reflect on this miraculous Book إن شاء الله.

We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things? [Qur'an 41:53]