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Singularity
05-22-2017, 11:58 PM
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/0...230211269.html


Ariana Grande concert: Deaths after reported blast
Greater Manchester Police say there are deaths after a reported explosion at an Ariana Grande performance.
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A blast at an Ariana Grande concert in the northern English city of Manchester has killed an unknown number of people and wounded others.

Police said on Monday night they were responding to reports of an explosion and there were a number of confirmed fatalities. The bomb disposal unit was on the scene.

There were no immediate details of what happened during the concert by the American singer, but witnesses reported hearing two loud bangs coming from near the arena's bars at about 10:30pm (2130GMT).

A video posted on Twitter showed fans screaming and running out of the venue.

"A huge bomb-like bang went off that hugely panicked everyone and we were all trying to flee the arena," concert-goer Majid Khan, 22, told Britain's Press Association.

Catherine Macfarlane told Reuters news agency the blast hit after the concert was over.

"We were making our way out and when we were right by the door there was a massive explosion and everybody was screaming," Macfarlane said.

"It was a huge explosion - you could feel it in your chest. It was chaotic. Everybody was running and screaming and just trying to get out."

Greater Manchester Police tweeted asking people to stay away.

"Emergency services responding to serious incident at Manchester Arena. Avoid the area. More details will follow as soon as available."

Manchester Arena, the largest indoor arena in Europe, opened in 1995 and has a capacity for 21,000 people, according to its website. It is a popular concert and sporting venue.

A spokesman for Ariana Grande's record label said the singer was "okay".

Britain is on its second-highest alert level of "severe" meaning an attack is considered highly likely.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn commented on Twitter, saying: "Terrible incident in Manchester. My thoughts are with all those affected and our brilliant emergency services."
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fromelsewhere
05-23-2017, 12:25 AM
Not again! I do hope it is not another dumb terrorist attack.
Reply

Singularity
05-23-2017, 01:34 AM
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/de...turing-n763286

At Least 19 Killed in Possible Suicide Blast at Manchester Arena Concert Featuring Ariana Grande
by ANDREW BLANKSTEIN, ROBERT WINDREM, ALEX JOHNSON and TOM WINTER
At least 19 people were killed and about 50 others were injured in a suspected suicide bombing Monday night after an Ariana Grande concert at Manchester Arena in England, authorities said.

Greater Manchester Police said the incident was being treated as terrorism. A senior White House official told NBC News that President Donald Trump, who is on a visit to Jerusalem, had been briefed.

Police said the explosion took place outside the arena, which is near the Manchester Victoria transit station, as the concert ended at about 10:35 p.m. local time (5:35 p.m. ET), catching people as they exited.

Law enforcement sources in both Britain and the United States had previously told NBC News that at least 20 people were killed and that possibly "hundreds" of others were injured, but they stressed at the time that the information was preliminary and subject to change.

U.S. officials said initial reports from the scene indicated that a number of the casualties might have been caused by a stampede of concert-goers.

People gather outside Manchester Arena and station in Manchester, England, on Monday night. Peter Bendicho
A representative of Ariana Grande said the singer, who has millions of young fans around the world, was not hurt. Likewise, Bianca Landrau, the Boston hiphop star known as Bia, who also performed, tweeted: "Guys we are okay!!!"

GUYS WE ARE OKAY !!! THANK YOU WE LOVE YOU ??????
— B I A ?? (@PericoPrincess) May 22, 2017
All lines to Manchester Victoria station were closed, National Rail said in a statement. Northern Railway said the station had been evacuated.

Play Police: 'A Number of Confirmed Fatalities' at Manchester Arena Facebook Twitter Embed
Police: 'A Number of Confirmed Fatalities' at Manchester Arena 7:05
Ivo Delgado, who attended the event, told NBC News that the concert had just ended when "I just heard a loud bang."

"People started screaming and going to the other side of the arena," said Delgado, who said he saw at least one person with blood on his face.

Steve Rotheram, mayor of the Liverpool City Region, tweeted that his two daughters had been in attendance and were safe.

"But I fear for others," he said.

Manchester Arena, which opened in 1995, is one of the largest indoor arenas in Europe. More than 1 million people fill its 21,000 seats every year.
Steve Rotheram ✔ @Steve4LCRmayor
My 2 daughters caught up in the Manchester explosion at the arena. They are thankfully safe, but I fear for others.
4:19 PM - 22 May 2017
88 88 Retweets 254 254 likes
This is a developing story. Refresh this page for updates.
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Eric H
05-23-2017, 02:16 AM
Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

Not again! I do hope it is not another dumb terrorist attack.
How much complaining did you do; when America and it's allies bombed Afghanistan and Iraq?

In the spirit of praying for justice and peace for all people.

Eric
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fromelsewhere
05-23-2017, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

How much complaining did you do; when America and it's allies bombed Afghanistan and Iraq?

In the spirit of praying for justice and peace for all people.

Eric
Greetings and peace be with you Eric H,

There is absolutely no justification for such a deed that would make the Shayteen very proud. Exploding a bomb in a crowd of kids enjoying a show. Absolutely disgusting.

Once again, let's not make it a tit-for-tat battle of "you did this to my people so I do this to yours." There is 0 justification for such ----, and when we see such injustices, we should denounce them loud and clear.
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Serinity
05-23-2017, 04:04 AM
:salam:

I'm more outraged at the fact that kuffar think this is Islam and blames Islam. I've no empathy for kuffar who ridicule my religion.

Allahu alam.
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Eric H
05-23-2017, 04:06 AM
Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

There is absolutely no justification for such a deed that would make the Shayteen very proud. Exploding a bomb in a crowd of kids enjoying a show. Absolutely disgusting.
Agreed

Once again, let's not make it a tit-for-tat battle of "you did this to my people so I do this to yours.
Justice for all people can never happen in this world. 9 / 11 was sick and wrong, so America and it's allies bomb Afghanistan, tit- for- tat retaliation. Possibly a hundred Afghans might have been responsible for 9/11, but tens of thousands have died. I would imagine the majority of Afghans who were killed had nothing to do with 9/11.

How do these innocent Afghans get justice and compensation for their loss? You can imagine there are a lot of angry Afghans who have lost a loved one, if they can't get justice then some will sadly seek revenge. Is this revenge classed as freedom fighting or terrorism?

If there is no god, then all these innocent deaths can never be put right. Only God can restore people to a greater good life after death. We pray to a God of compassion, mercy and forgiveness.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God.

Eric
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fromelsewhere
05-23-2017, 04:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

I'm more outraged at the fact that kuffar think this is Islam and blames Islam. I've no empathy for kuffar who ridicule my religion.

Allahu alam.
Many of these terrorists claim to be doing that in the name of Islam. You should be mad at them for turning Islam on its head and claiming that they are doing "jihad" when they are just doing Satanic deeds.
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fromelsewhere
05-23-2017, 04:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

Justice for all people can never happen in this world. 9 / 11 was sick and wrong, so America and it's allies bomb Afghanistan, tit- for- tat retaliation. Possibly a hundred Afghans might have been responsible for 9/11, but tens of thousands have died. I would imagine the majority of Afghans who were killed had nothing to do with 9/11.

How do these innocent Afghans get justice and compensation for their loss? You can imagine there are a lot of angry Afghans who have lost a loved one, if they can't get justice then some will sadly seek revenge. Is this revenge classed as freedom fighting or terrorism?

If there is no god, then all these innocent deaths can never be put right. Only God can restore people to a greater good life after death. We pray to a God of compassion, mercy and forgiveness.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God.

Eric
First, these terrorists are likely not from Afghanistan and have not suffered any losses in their families due to the US invasion. Second, you should not take revenge, and especially not by killing innocent kids. You should seek justice instead. Grow a brain and some compassion for people who are coldly murdered due to "fanatics" who claim to be doing this in the name of God. (Personally, I like to call these people "satanists").
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muslim brother
05-23-2017, 06:24 AM
as the events unfolded last night,once again tears flowed from my eyes.
children,running,screaming.
parents ,worried,in panic
i was on twitter a while,a new experience for me.
@ahmeddewsbury


blame games and insinuations,before an investigation
before facts.
4 hours sleep
7.20 am ,time of writing.
more pain


ahmed patel,dewsbury
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Simple_Person
05-23-2017, 07:46 AM
It is so sad that civilians in the western world are such sheep and just follow the herd.

These things happen and all they are filled are with is hatred and revenge against the ones who are responsible. Never are they filled with questions of what is going on? Why even 50 years back these things did not happen, suddenly bombings of civilians in this city and in that city and in that country..

As a Muslim when you try to explain to them what is happening BEFORE the bombings of innocent civilians in the Middle East, they do not stop this hatred for a moment ..try to process what you have said..but are only filled with rage. When during times that no bombings have occurred you try to make them see that the governments in the west are not what they claim to be, they brand you as a conspiracy nut.

The mass media has branded Islam as evil, what in general the mass media says is evil in the past a group of these so called "conspiracy-nut-jobs" asked questions why this and why that..now a days these people that used to ask questions, somehow also have become part of this global agenda against Muslims and Islam. I am not sure if they have been threatened or bribed..i would not be shocked if that is the case. When a person does not know God, they fear for their lives and rather follow the path of lies than truth or the people that do not know God, will be more than happy to accept some six figure check..

Age of confusion that is all. Do not trust anybody, not even your own parents if you ask me, because you do not know their level of imaan, rather keep firm on what Allah has made clear to us to follow and stick to that. Better head your own way and try to practice Islam as how it should be practiced, be patient and the day will come that you in the end will leave this world and have to answer for your actions.
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noraina
05-23-2017, 08:58 AM
Assalamu alaykum,

I don't think this is the time to get into such political discussions. These days we are so on edge that we try to search for some way to blame those who are the victims of these injustices. Can't we just feel the same pain for all of humanity wherever they are? Injustice is injustice.

The lack of sympathy there is on both sides is disheartening.

What is happening in Iraq or Syria is heart-breaking, innocent children and civilians are killed - but that does not give *any* excuse for anyone fall to their level and do the same out of 'revenge'. We are meant to be examples in behaviour and conduct subhanAllah. We're meant to condemn all injustice, wherever it happens, even if no-one else does.

It hasn't been confirmed yet who is behind this so I'm trying to stay away from assumptions - but if it is a Muslim behind it, their actions have no basis in Islam..

What is so 'Islamic' or 'American' or 'British' or 'honourable' in killing innocent civilians and *especially* children, wherever it is in the world?

I have been to Manchester many, many times to enjoy Eid with family who live there...
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noraina
05-23-2017, 09:00 AM
What is happening in Manchester, in Aleppo, in Mosul is terrible. I'm tired of people trying to prove which suffering is the most painful or which lives are worthy of more sympathy.

SubhanAllah.
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sister herb
05-23-2017, 09:06 AM
Unfortunately this is how people think; "they" killed some of us, so it´s ok to make same to them... and those people whose say it´s not relevant to talk about earlier victims in Iraq etc, will at the next day go to burn few mosques - as revenge.

Victims of all of them are all innocents.
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noraina
05-23-2017, 09:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Unfortunately this is how people think; "they" killed some of us, so it´s ok to make same to them... and those people whose say it´s not relevant to talk about earlier victims in Iraq etc, will at the next day go to burn few mosques - as revenge.

Victims of all of them are all innocents.
I know right? On one side some say it is the fault of the West and they deserve what is coming to them, and one side others say it is the fault of Islam and Muslims and they deserve whatever they get. This kind of thinking of 'us against them' ends up in a circle of violence which never ends.

This is why we have terrible conflicts in countries like Syria and awful attacks such as this one in England.
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talibilm
05-23-2017, 09:36 AM
:sl:

Any knowledgeable Muslim will not do this act , bombing common people :exhausted when Islam Prohibits to harm common public (Non Muslim enemies actively engaged in worshipping idols ,shirk the biggest sin but not indulged in fighting us ) even during a battle.

I do not think is an act of Muslims but an act of enemy of Muslim because they know for every terrorist incident they will FIRST blame the muslims. :embarrass
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Zeal
05-23-2017, 09:44 AM
I don't understand how somebody could do this
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talibilm
05-23-2017, 09:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zeal
I don't understand how somebody could do this
Yes you are partially correct , somebody like a psychopath can do but a Muslim who knows his Lord is Adil, The Just will never do this
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MuhammadHamza1
05-23-2017, 09:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;



Agreed



Justice for all people can never happen in this world. 9 / 11 was sick and wrong, so America and it's allies bomb Afghanistan, tit- for- tat retaliation. Possibly a hundred Afghans might have been responsible for 9/11, but tens of thousands have died. I would imagine the majority of Afghans who were killed had nothing to do with 9/11.

How do these innocent Afghans get justice and compensation for their loss? You can imagine there are a lot of angry Afghans who have lost a loved one, if they can't get justice then some will sadly seek revenge. Is this revenge classed as freedom fighting or terrorism?

If there is no god, then all these innocent deaths can never be put right. Only God can restore people to a greater good life after death. We pray to a God of compassion, mercy and forgiveness.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God.

Eric
9/11 was an inside job.
Go and watch the documentary
"9/11,The Next Pearl Harbour."
Islamicboard,do not delete my comments again.
I want to give these people a dose of truth.
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sister herb
05-23-2017, 10:28 AM
^ You should stay on topic. Messing 9/11 with this terrorist act goes quite far.
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Zeal
05-23-2017, 10:58 AM
Who was the attacker?
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keiv
05-23-2017, 11:03 AM
Not to take away from what happened but, the fact that kids are going to an Ariana Grande concert to begin with it pretty sad. I understand the reality of what kids are doing these days but, I know who she is and the types of songs she makes and I just can't imagine how any parent would let their kids go to such an event, let alone going unsupervised as many of them were.

Coincidentally, this all happens just as our lovely president is making his rounds in the middle east. Based on things we learned (and are still learning) through historical events, both recent and afar, I'm not the type of person to simply take things at face value especially "official stories" but, this really isn't the thread for that type of discussion. In either case, it's a sad situation for everyone involved. Having said that, I'm going to keep an even closer eye on what our lovely president is doing overseas because I imagine this attack will probably take the focus off what he's doing there (besides the typical site seeing and fake smiles for the camera).
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MisterK
05-23-2017, 11:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zeal
Who was the attacker?
I think they haven't announced it yet, though they say the attacker has been identified, and another was arrested for being connected to it.
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Simple_Person
05-23-2017, 11:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noraina
Assalamu alaykum,

I don't think this is the time to get into such political discussions. These days we are so on edge that we try to search for some way to blame those who are the victims of these injustices. Can't we just feel the same pain for all of humanity wherever they are? Injustice is injustice.

The lack of sympathy there is on both sides is disheartening.

What is happening in Iraq or Syria is heart-breaking, innocent children and civilians are killed - but that does not give *any* excuse for anyone fall to their level and do the same out of 'revenge'. We are meant to be examples in behaviour and conduct subhanAllah. We're meant to condemn all injustice, wherever it happens, even if no-one else does.

It hasn't been confirmed yet who is behind this so I'm trying to stay away from assumptions - but if it is a Muslim behind it, their actions have no basis in Islam..

What is so 'Islamic' or 'American' or 'British' or 'honourable' in killing innocent civilians and *especially* children, wherever it is in the world?

I have been to Manchester many, many times to enjoy Eid with family who live there...
Sister i am with you, but people DO NOT THINK ..and ask questions.

Just look at Uk before, look at France, look at Germany..etc. every time only having this empathy..everybody is feeling sorry for the victims..BUT NOBODY IS THINKING!! ...How can i NOT become political? I mean if this was the FIRST of all of the bombings, i could indeed have more leaned towards the empathy side.

Look at some of the western people what savages they are and how they look at people who are fleeing from war. They see some rape cases, again i ask the question HOW COME these refugees commit such atrocities? (rape) Then we study history and see that dictators have been placed by the west and supported by the west and prevent the people of those countries to educate themselves and stay dumb. In other words it is the SAME blade that they thought by foreign policy to put dictators there and prevent education (educated stand up against injustice and start revolutions) they could manipulate and get cheap resources, now is stabbing them.

All these innocent victims..LET THEM STAND UP AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENTS. THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE for creation of such evil people. Action-->reaction. Let's do something to the cause of this evil. Everybody is pointing at Islam, go STUDY HISTORY of those countries and see what the west has done to those countries. There you will see that the SAME people you think are your leaders are to be blamed.

Where is Blair? Why isn't he in jail? We are pointing at such terrorist for killing innocent people, while they are a symptom, NOT the cause.

Stand up..revolt DO SOMETHING against your government ..AT LEAST with your tongue..i hear almost NOBODY say something. One is NOT able to do something by their hands, then at least speak out the truth.

How many of the people look at the people in the Middle East as if they are vermin to be exterminated. Sister, you think this will be the last bombing? You know it will not be. People of ISIS are the ones that have grown out of hatred because people in the west looks like they don't give a damn about what is happening in places far away from them, while their OWN government is doing the killing and oppression. So guys like ISIS they get so hateful to just go want to see some blood flowing.

Human lives in the west or in the east or the north or the south..have EQUAL value, however many people in the west now a days see themselves as more of a value, than others, while we are all equal in value of blood spilling..i cry for innocent person in the west, the east, the north or the south.

So this isn't just because i feel like it to be political. There is a reason why.
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Simple_Person
05-23-2017, 11:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
^ You should stay on topic. Messing 9/11 with this terrorist act goes quite far.
Ever heard of "Operation Gladio"?
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noraina
05-23-2017, 11:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister i am with you, but people DO NOT THINK ..and ask questions.

Just look at Uk before, look at France, look at Germany..etc. every time only having this empathy..everybody is feeling sorry for the victims..BUT NOBODY IS THINKING!! ...How can i NOT become political? I mean if this was the FIRST of all of the bombings, i could indeed have more leaned towards the empathy side.

Look at some of the western people what savages they are and how they look at people who are fleeing from war. They see some rape cases, again i ask the question HOW COME these refugees commit such atrocities? (rape) Then we study history and see that dictators have been placed by the west and supported by the west and prevent the people of those countries to educate themselves and stay dumb. In other words it is the SAME blade that they thought by foreign policy to put dictators there and prevent education (educated stand up against injustice and start revolutions) they could manipulate and get cheap resources, now is stabbing them.

All these innocent victims..LET THEM STAND UP AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENTS. THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE for creation of such evil people. Action-->reaction. Let's do something to the cause of this evil. Everybody is pointing at Islam, go STUDY HISTORY of those countries and see what the west has done to those countries. There you will see that the SAME people you think are your leaders are to be blamed.

Where is Blair? Why isn't he in jail? We are pointing at such terrorist for killing innocent people, while they are a symptom, NOT the cause.

Stand up..revolt DO SOMETHING against your government ..AT LEAST with your tongue..i hear almost NOBODY say something. One is NOT able to do something by their hands, then at least speak out the truth.

How many of the people look at the people in the Middle East as if they are vermin to be exterminated. Sister, you think this will be the last bombing? You know it will not be. People of ISIS are the ones that have grown out of hatred because people in the west looks like they don't give a damn about what is happening in places far away from them, while their OWN government is doing the killing and oppression. So guys like ISIS they get so hateful to just go want to see some blood flowing.

Human lives in the west or in the east or the north or the south..have EQUAL value, however many people in the west now a days see themselves as more of a value, than others, while we are all equal in value of blood spilling..i cry for innocent person in the west, the east, the north or the south.

So this isn't just because i feel like it to be political. There is a reason why.
I feel as frustrated as anyone when I see the injustices being committed against our brothers and sisters.

However, my point was that as Muslims we shouldn't do the same. One life taken unjustly is one life too many. Just because others have double-standards, it doesn't mean we should as well. Anyone who is killed here in Europe is as innocent as someone killed in a war-torn nation in the Middle East. As I've said, as Muslims we should be examples in behaviour and conduct, in mercy and justice.

And people are speaking up for those who are oppressed. Maybe their voices aren't heard as strongly, but in the UK here I've seen many Muslims and non-Muslims speaking out for those suffering in Syria or Yemen, and working hard to help them. True, these efforts cannot keep up with the awful destruction there but something is being done.

We're told to control our anger because it can lead to destruction - as we're seeing right now. And it is those with least fault who suffer the most - those kids in Manchester or Syria never did anything to anyone.

As you said, violence begets violence. If someone is upset with how current affairs are, do something *positive* to change it. Killing innocent people will not make the world a better place or lessen the suffering of others. It'll only increase it.
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Simple_Person
05-23-2017, 11:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noraina
I feel as frustrated as anyone when I see the injustices being committed against our brothers and sisters.

However, my point was that as Muslims we shouldn't do the same. One life taken unjustly is one life too many. Just because others have double-standards, it doesn't mean we should as well. Anyone who is killed here in Europe is as innocent as someone killed in a war-torn nation in the Middle East. As I've said, as Muslims we should be examples in behaviour and conduct, in mercy and justice.

And people are speaking up for those who are oppressed. Maybe their voices aren't heard as strongly, but in the UK here I've seen many Muslims and non-Muslims speaking out for those suffering in Syria or Yemen, and working hard to help them. True, these efforts cannot keep up with the awful destruction there but something is being done.

We're told to control our anger because it can lead to destruction - as we're seeing right now. And it is those with least fault who suffer the most - those kids in Manchester or Syria never did anything to anyone.

As you said, violence begets violence. If someone is upset with how current affairs are, do something *positive* to change it. Killing innocent people will not make the world a better place or lessen the suffering of others. It'll only increase it.
Sister, crying doesn't solve ANYTHING in this current world. This crying ONLY helps if the people who are the ROOT cause of it, can get something out of it.



Malala Yousufi is being supported so much by those SAME warmongers and NOBODY is asking questions...

Put those tears on hold for a moment and lets clean up the root cause of it, because those innocent people that just died, there will be MANY more to come if NOTHING is said or done. Start throwing Blair and Bush in jail for life, so people who have felt injustice done to them also feel some justice is done.
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sister herb
05-23-2017, 11:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Ever heard of "Operation Gladio"?
Ever heard the word conspiracy theory? Aliens! Aliens are behind every terrorist acts if you ask from me. Now back to topic, ok?
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Simple_Person
05-23-2017, 11:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Ever heard the word conspiracy theory? Aliens! Aliens are behind every terrorist acts if you ask from me. Now back to topic, ok?
That is the first step to following the herd sister.

I often think how come Rasullah(saws) has said that dajjal be the BIGGEST FITNA since Adam(as). We Muslims hear "biggest fitna" and see it as words, but nothing more. While these so called "conspiracy nut-jobs" do some times have some valid questions but we just throw EVERYTHING they say on a pile of things we should not pay any attention to it.

But yeah, for you for me and for everyone else, we will end up in our own grave and IF we will experience dajjal in our life time for sure things will be decided. But i guess that is in your eyes also a conspiracy theory one almost could say.
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Indefinable
05-23-2017, 11:55 AM
Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala knows best regarding what happened/who was behind it.

However the repercussions of this will be felt by all.

Something like this only gives further ammunition. It serves no purpose, and is hardly something we condone.
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Indefinable
05-23-2017, 11:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Ever heard the word conspiracy theory? Aliens! Aliens are behind every terrorist acts if you ask from me. Now back to topic, ok?
I don't think we should joke about something like this sister.

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Eric H
05-23-2017, 11:58 AM
Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

First, these terrorists are likely not from Afghanistan and have not suffered any losses in their families due to the US invasion.
They could have connections with Iraq, tens of thousands died in the US led invasion, and about two million became refugees, many of them ending up in Syria. Now Syria has become destabilised.

Second, you should not take revenge, and especially not by killing innocent kids.
A absolutely agree with you, but what was the motivation for the invasion of Afghanistan, it seems to boarder on revenge. I do not see the invasion as an act of seeking justice for the 9/11 victims.

You should seek justice instead. Grow a brain and some compassion for people who are coldly murdered due to "fanatics"
My idea of justice is for all people of all faiths and no faith, we are all created by the same God.

who claim to be doing this in the name of God. (Personally, I like to call these people "satanists")
I remember George Bush saying, God bless America, when he went to war. This goes against everything I believe. We are commanded to love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. We are commanded to love and pray for our enemies.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God,

Eric
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noraina
05-23-2017, 12:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Indefinable
Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala knows best regarding what happened/who was behind it.

However the repercussions of this will be felt by all.

Something like this only gives further ammunition. It serves no purpose, and is hardly something we condone.
Exactly this ^.

Whoever is behind this, or any other attack, they only result in more harm and there is no way we can condone it.
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sister herb
05-23-2017, 12:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Indefinable
I don't think we should joke about something like this sister.
Sorry but that wasn´t a joke. I disagree that some people want to see conspiracy theories behind of every corner.
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Serinity
05-23-2017, 12:08 PM
:salam:

This only reignites the hatred. Let it be known - These terror attacks has no basis in Islam. Yet people still associate this with Islam, while Islam is the farthest from it.

This is like the one who fights fire with gasoline.. It won't work. I am also tired of telling people "Islam has nothing to do with it".

Now, we don't know if this is a Muslim or not. Islam has a lot to say about things like these. It utterly condemns it.

Allahu alam.
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sister herb
05-23-2017, 12:11 PM
What is sad is that some people believe these cowards whose kill civilians really represent some other victims. To me they are lunatics whose believe the lies of people whose only want power, not justice for the victims of wars in Iraq, Syria and other places. People whose fight for human rights and equality for all and justice are not those whose send these people whose carry a bomb to the middle of crowds.

The ideal situation to me would to be that we could put Bush, Blair and leaders of daesh to the same jail together. They can fight there together to the end of their life.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-23-2017, 12:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Sorry but that wasn´t a joke. I disagree that some people want to see conspiracy theories behind of every corner.
Disagree with something, there is nothing wrong with it, but you disagreeing is without real good argument, rather a "feeling". You think ISIS just being let lose was just a coincidence? If we look at the signs of the end times and ISIS..(and their black flags)..you see some very coincidence to it as there is a hadith about end times with black flags and Muslims should join them.

The problem with you is you do not take things serious and rather look at it from a sober perspective.

"And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners." Qur'an 8:30

You THINK this was back then and this aya is not necessary anymore? You THINK nobody is really plotting and planning against Muslims and Islam anymore?

Your path you are walking is a VERY dangerous path i must say, because you UNDERESTIMATE those people that are plotting and planning against Muslims, but not only Muslims, humanity at large.

You THINK there are no followers of iblies among humans? Allah has told us so many times in the Qur'an sheytan is a enemy to you.

Following a logical and rational way is rather to overestimate somebody, than to underestimate. Islamic way of life is OVERESTIMATE things, rather than underestimate things. Go ponder sister, you might be older than me, but that doesn't mean you know better than me on some aspects. Take this free warning as a gift, instead of blowing it away as a nonsense, because the day maybe could come that you will regret having done that.
Reply

sister herb
05-23-2017, 01:02 PM
I talked about those more or less common conspiracy theories. Here have been mentioned already 9/11 theory and one from the era of the cold war. I see just bunch of lunatics whose follow the false leaders whose lie to them that they are fighting for justice. Those leaders may use black flags but the color of flag doesn´t make them worthy to follow.

As well, some members here hadn´t any information who is behind of this cowardly act but conspiracy theories were ready. If you can´t blame aliens, blame Nato/Nasa/CIA/FBI... And this comes the danger:

looking for guilty part from those sweet theories, is the first step to give justification to the groups whose gives example to kind of attacks.

Nobody knows yet was there daesh behind of this but it´s easy to see that they have given the example and idea for attacking against civilians like this way.
Reply

Silas
05-23-2017, 01:49 PM
Most people in the "west" do not view people from the Middle East as savages, nor do they believe Islam is some terrorist ideology. You need to stop listening to those who would tell you this in some misguided attempt to stoke your anger and anxiety.

People ARE standing up against their governments, and the endless wars and interventions. Ask yourself why they have not been successful?

1. Saudi Arabia wants to uphold its monarchy and is against the idea of an "Islamic Republic" (Iran, Syria, Libya, etc.). It has a political motivation to subvert these republics through sowing chaos in the region and getting western nations to help. The campaign against the Shia is part of this.
2. Saudi Arabia is financing and spreading Salafist/Wahhabist Islam around the world. Look at the "Red Mosque" (Lal Masjid) in Pakistan--the kids who study there are taught to despise "infidels" and other Muslims, and they learn nothing but select portions of the Quran. In interviews, these kids don't even know what the meaning of the passages are, they just memorize. 99% of all terrorists come from this "branch" of Islam.
3. Israel uses its power and influence to encourage western governments to act against their own interests and engage in military intervention in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is happy to go along with some of this (the removal of Assad, bombing of Houthi rebels, etc.).

So this isn't as simple as western people standing up agains their own governments, when we have Muslim nations (and Israel) encouraging military strikes in the Middle-East.

Whenever the west seems to be retreating from the stage in the ME, we suddenly get these terrorist attacks, which then act as a justification for putting boots on the ground in places like Syria. The terrorists who carry out these attacks are the stooges of the House of Saud and the Israeli/neocon lobby.

You say westerners are acting like savages less than 24 hours after (apparently) some jihadist just blew up a bunch of innocent women and children. So the solution to savagery is to behave like even more of a savage?
Reply

M.I.A.
05-23-2017, 02:27 PM
I actually work near the area..

Amazing how social media works these days.

I got whatsapp messages, pictures and tweets just as the ambulances were going past.

Met two young concert goers not long after.

Totally unjustifiable act.

For those who make the similarity between terrorism victims and collateral damage in war zones..

No matter the political and religious point of view.

People should act according to the situation.

I dont even know what a warzone is..

Or how to act accordingly.


Anyway to follow up...

Nearby shopping mall evacuated today..suspicious package.

Several arrests linked to last night made in the city.

Nearby hospital in the city on lockdown last night.. after reports of an unrelated gunman.. denied by local council.
Reply

piXie
05-23-2017, 03:33 PM
:sl:

Islam n Muslims r being blamed again. Politics is a filthy game.
Reply

Geoffrey
05-23-2017, 03:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;



Agreed



Justice for all people can never happen in this world. 9 / 11 was sick and wrong, so America and it's allies bomb Afghanistan, tit- for- tat retaliation. Possibly a hundred Afghans might have been responsible for 9/11, but tens of thousands have died. I would imagine the majority of Afghans who were killed had nothing to do with 9/11.

How do these innocent Afghans get justice and compensation for their loss? You can imagine there are a lot of angry Afghans who have lost a loved one, if they can't get justice then some will sadly seek revenge. Is this revenge classed as freedom fighting or terrorism?

If there is no god, then all these innocent deaths can never be put right. Only God can restore people to a greater good life after death. We pray to a God of compassion, mercy and forgiveness.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God.

Eric

Eric,
It's been 16 years and you still believe that Muslims committed the 9/11 attacks? OMG!

:facepalm:
Reply

Geoffrey
05-23-2017, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Sorry but that wasn´t a joke. I disagree that some people want to see conspiracy theories behind of every corner.
Until you realize that there is a religion out there (I'll let you guess) whose members are committing false-flag terror attacks to get Christians and Muslims to fight each other, you will never understand what's happening in the world today.
Reply

DanEdge
05-23-2017, 04:03 PM
Greetings,

My past experience with Islamic Board, and other interactions with Muslims, has changed my perception on events like this.

Many facts go unreported or under-reported by news agencies. Unreported: The vast majority of the Muslim world vehemently rejects attacks like this (especially against children). Unreported: Most moderate and even conservative Muslims categorically reject such terrorist acts on a theological basis, and can recite chapter and verse for reasoning. Unreported: Many Muslim fanatics/nerds will crush you with scholarship in any attempt to brand them as supporters of terrorism. Unreported: Individuals in the Muslim world have hearts, and they bleed in response to the suffering of anyone, in any nation, anywhere. Unreported: Muslims have love and respect for non-believers, assuming that such love and respect is earned though virtue.

I am an American. I am from South Carolina, the cradle of Revolution for ignorance and slavery. My state voted for Trump. Yet still, there are many here who seek knowledge and support truth. I make no apologies or excuses; we are many, and we are who we are.

Sincerely,

--Dan Edge
Reply

M.I.A.
05-23-2017, 04:39 PM
As the argument went outside..

Go get your ting..

Because i AM my ting.


Wow. I am left speechless.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-23-2017, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
I talked about those more or less common conspiracy theories. Here have been mentioned already 9/11 theory and one from the era of the cold war. I see just bunch of lunatics whose follow the false leaders whose lie to them that they are fighting for justice. Those leaders may use black flags but the color of flag doesn´t make them worthy to follow.

As well, some members here hadn´t any information who is behind of this cowardly act but conspiracy theories were ready. If you can´t blame aliens, blame Nato/Nasa/CIA/FBI... And this comes the danger:

looking for guilty part from those sweet theories, is the first step to give justification to the groups whose gives example to kind of attacks.

Nobody knows yet was there daesh behind of this but it´s easy to see that they have given the example and idea for attacking against civilians like this way.
We live in a age of confusion where false flags are a CERTAIN fact. The problem however is that not many people know that there are false flags. The age of confusion creates exactly this "obvious" fact of yes..ISIS must have done it. However countries have VERY VERY complicated strategies that they rule by. Creation of group X, group X fights against you, but now group X and you have common enemy, however because group X are so preoccupied by this enemy, then give weapons to group X, because the international pressure is less and losing face is less..

So for me rather is that if group X even says they have done that bombing, the creation of this group X is not even trustworthy anymore. I question everything and everyone. Just as recent so called chemical attack on civilians "by" Assad. All the logic tells me that it is being contradictory and if i remember correctly we disagreed on that topic and i asked you some questions how come this and how come that..but you NEVER bothered to reply to them.

Do be honest in discussions sisters, losing face is the last that you should care about. I do not care what people think of me "losing face", my pride is less than their foot sole. Let people trample my pride because i do not care about it. When i am wrong or say something wrong i am wrong and the whole world may know about it. Try to create this attitude also, because having pride to not lose face is not gone help your or me in our grave.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-23-2017, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Silas
Most people in the "west" do not view people from the Middle East as savages, nor do they believe Islam is some terrorist ideology. You need to stop listening to those who would tell you this in some misguided attempt to stoke your anger and anxiety.

People ARE standing up against their governments, and the endless wars and interventions. Ask yourself why they have not been successful?

1. Saudi Arabia wants to uphold its monarchy and is against the idea of an "Islamic Republic" (Iran, Syria, Libya, etc.). It has a political motivation to subvert these republics through sowing chaos in the region and getting western nations to help. The campaign against the Shia is part of this.
2. Saudi Arabia is financing and spreading Salafist/Wahhabist Islam around the world. Look at the "Red Mosque" (Lal Masjid) in Pakistan--the kids who study there are taught to despise "infidels" and other Muslims, and they learn nothing but select portions of the Quran. In interviews, these kids don't even know what the meaning of the passages are, they just memorize. 99% of all terrorists come from this "branch" of Islam.
3. Israel uses its power and influence to encourage western governments to act against their own interests and engage in military intervention in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is happy to go along with some of this (the removal of Assad, bombing of Houthi rebels, etc.).

So this isn't as simple as western people standing up agains their own governments, when we have Muslim nations (and Israel) encouraging military strikes in the Middle-East.

Whenever the west seems to be retreating from the stage in the ME, we suddenly get these terrorist attacks, which then act as a justification for putting boots on the ground in places like Syria. The terrorists who carry out these attacks are the stooges of the House of Saud and the Israeli/neocon lobby.

You say westerners are acting like savages less than 24 hours after (apparently) some jihadist just blew up a bunch of innocent women and children. So the solution to savagery is to behave like even more of a savage?
Brother, you understand very little of my comment, however i blame my self for not being more clear in it.

When we see that those extreme right political parties gaining such high amount of votes, YES there are people who vote for them because they want change, however they do not think IF such a extreme right political party gains upper hand, it is gonna go wrong with Muslims. So i am especially pointing at those, besides that, i have lived her in the west for some time. Till this day i am still being looked at as if i am a criminal, i am -1 when somebody seems me. However i do not look at them as evil people, i rather pity them and i accepted the reality.

The elder generation in the west, those people KNOW how it is to witness war, the later generation is blind because they have been protected from war and destruction. All the later generation mostly cares about is wealth and see anybody who comes in their country that they see them grabbing of their wealth.

It ALL starts with western politics. When there is no western politics in other words people standing up against their politicians, suddenly Israel is getting less money and the Middle East aka dictators having no input to stay in power. So bro, you have to think a bit more deeply about this, as the ROOT cause of all of this starts in western countries. Saudi may have all the money in the world however if western powers do not support them and Russia so to say takes over and help Saudi with arms deal, that is at least change. Russia help with arms deal, but that is all. The problem is western countries are connected with them on all the levels not just arms deals.

What if western countries also stopped buying Saudi oil? What then? Also no money from Saudi..Russia is also selling oil, so china right now is getting a lot of oil from Russia..so also that is getting hard for Saudi. So again it all starts with the west.

How many people have stopped voting? WHY ARE YOU VOTING!!?? Democracy? But you KNOW it is a scam ..on paper all looks fine, but in reality it isn't. So why vote to keep up this input and flow of corrupt people gaining power? What if whole UK stopped voting? Or whole western world stopped voting..

Things are a bit more complicated and one needs the balls to take actions, however many do not have those.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-23-2017, 09:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DanEdge
Greetings,

My past experience with Islamic Board, and other interactions with Muslims, has changed my perception on events like this.

Many facts go unreported or under-reported by news agencies. Unreported: The vast majority of the Muslim world vehemently rejects attacks like this (especially against children). Unreported: Most moderate and even conservative Muslims categorically reject such terrorist acts on a theological basis, and can recite chapter and verse for reasoning. Unreported: Many Muslim fanatics/nerds will crush you with scholarship in any attempt to brand them as supporters of terrorism. Unreported: Individuals in the Muslim world have hearts, and they bleed in response to the suffering of anyone, in any nation, anywhere. Unreported: Muslims have love and respect for non-believers, assuming that such love and respect is earned though virtue.

I am an American. I am from South Carolina, the cradle of Revolution for ignorance and slavery. My state voted for Trump. Yet still, there are many here who seek knowledge and support truth. I make no apologies or excuses; we are many, and we are who we are.

Sincerely,

--Dan Edge
Stop watching tv. With that, A LOT of your (in general) time will suddenly be available. What to do with that time? Talk to a foreign neighbor of yours, ask question about their culture, habits, likes/dislikes, read a book or two about thing in the world, eat some dishes that you never heard of, learn more about other religions, suddenly one will learn a lot more.

However tv is more important to people now a days, i am not only talking about the west, in the Middle East people have become really lazy and VERY VERY uneducated, despite they being able to read and write. If not tv, it is facebook and that useless time wasting stuff..as if people have become "social" because of social media.

Reply

AbdurRahman.
05-23-2017, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
Many of these terrorists claim to be doing that in the name of Islam. You should be mad at them for turning Islam on its head and claiming that they are doing "jihad" when they are just doing Satanic deeds.
mad at them?; we're too pre-occupied in saving ourselves from hell mate than be mad at mado's of the world! :Emoji46:

it's wrong; we condemn, and move on; life too short to be mad!
Reply

Serinity
05-23-2017, 09:24 PM
:salam:

I think the way to solve this.. Or one of them, is to educate, truly and seriously, people and Muslims about Islam. Make it an obligation.

Not taught by kuffar, but by Muslim scholars!

Allahu alam.
Reply

Serinity
05-23-2017, 10:49 PM
This attack and all the others.

How cliché. Really. I am tired of all these attacks. A bomb explodes, people ready their pre-written prayers... and if it is a Muslim, we condemn.

This only makes our lives as Muslims harder. Especially for those with Niqab, may Allah help us and protect us. Ameen.

Then some misguided ISIS sympathisee goes: "the kuffar bombed us, these kids are combatants. Kuffar life have no sanctity..."

May Allah :swt: forgive me if I said something wrong.
Allahu alam
Reply

fromelsewhere
05-24-2017, 02:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
mad at them?; we're too pre-occupied in saving ourselves from hell mate than be mad at mado's of the world! :Emoji46:

it's wrong; we condemn, and move on; life too short to be mad!
The problem is that these people come from our community and often give warning signs that they are radicalizing. But unfortunately, instead of the community coming forward to try and encourage them to not do stupid things, the community is silent. It is important to reinforce the message that Islam is UNEQUIVOCALY AGAINST killing innocents. The terrorist in this case, Salman Abedi, was born & raised in England, and he worked at the local mosque where he apparently "gave a look of hate" after the imam preached against ISIS. People saw this but did not confront him. I am sure that someone must have known that he was up to no good.

Aside from the heinous murders he has committed, he has also tainted the image of Muslims further. This leads to more hate and tension that is certainly not needed and that makes the lives of Muslims in Western countries unnecessarily more difficult. These kinds of horrible events are bad for everyone, and no one benefits aside from the Shayteen (providing that he exists).

format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
I think the way to solve this.. Or one of them, is to educate, truly and seriously, people and Muslims about Islam. Make it an obligation. Not taught by kuffar, but by Muslim scholars!
Yes, this is what we need... a solution from within.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-24-2017, 05:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
The problem is that these people come from our community and often give warning signs that they are radicalizing. But unfortunately, instead of the community coming forward to try and encourage them to not do stupid things, the community is silent. It is important to reinforce the message that Islam is UNEQUIVOCALY AGAINST killing innocents. The terrorist in this case, Salman Abedi, was born & raised in England, and he worked at the local mosque where he apparently "gave a look of hate" after the imam preached against ISIS. People saw this but did not confront him. I am sure that someone must have known that he was up to no good.

Aside from the heinous murders he has committed, he has also tainted the image of Muslims further. This leads to more hate and tension that is certainly not needed and that makes the lives of Muslims in Western countries unnecessarily more difficult. These kinds of horrible events are bad for everyone, and no one benefits aside from the Shayteen (providing that he exists).
If i am correct you said you were a ex-Muslim, however you seem to know little about Islam. In Islam there is a thing called not acting upon suspicion or being suspicious. Also assuming things, very big evils.

The problem is not these guys, because WE as Muslim KNOW about khwarij mentality (ISIS-menality) they will come until the last one of them join dajjal (anti-christ)

=======hadith==========

"I used to wish that I could meet a man among the Companions of the Prophet [SAW] and ask him about the Khawarij. Then I met Abu Barzah on the day of 'Id, with a number of his companions. I said to him : 'Did you hear the Messenger of Allah [SAW] mention the Khawarij?' He said: 'Yes. I heard the Messenger of Allah [SAW] with my own ears, and saw him with my own eyes. Some wealth was brought to the Messenger of Allah [SAW] and he distributed it to those on his right and on his left, but he did not give anything to those who were behind him. Then a man stood behind him and said: "o Muhammad! You have not been just in your division! "He was a man with black patchy (shaved) hair, wearing two white garments. So Allah's Messenger [SAW] became very angry and said:" By Allah! You will not find a man after me who is more just than me. "Then he said:" A people will come at the end of time; as if he is one of them, reciting the Qur'an without it passing beyond their throats. They will go through Islam just as the arrow goes through the target. Their distinction will be shaving. They will not cease to appear until the last of them comes with Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal. So when you meet them, then kill them, they are the worst of created beings. "

Source used: https://sunnah.com/nasai/37/138

========================

In the time of Prophet Muhammad(pubh), they were also a problem. If you knew even a bit about Islam you at least should have known also these things. We do not see those people until they take action. These times those ISIS guys are not to be blamed, because we do NOT know who are those ISIS guys and who are not. Those guys WILL EXIST.

We not as Muslims but as humans together should first start attacking the problem at it's core, which is corrupt politicians. Those guys are the cause of the problems worldwide and those ISIS-mentality guys find EXCUSE to go and kill innocent people.

Every time Muslims are blamed for "not doing anything against it", my question is what we Muslims are dealing with are symptoms and will NOT GO AWAY!! How much are people who are NOT Muslims doing against those people who are in PLAIN SIGHT?? WHY..WHY..WHY isn't Blair, Bush etc in jail yet? Those guys WE KNOW are the criminals.

To me seeing such injustice, yet my blood boiling to do something, but the governments are terrorists, the groups fighting the governments are terrorists in my eyes, in Syria right now the so called "white helmets" are the biggest terrorists among them all as they spread lies to work against certain party. So for me seeing such injustice everywhere the only thing i at least can do is speak the truth.

Everybody stop voting at least. Do not go and join the so called "free democracy" as we all know is what you are voting for is yet another criminal. What if everybody stopped voting, their WHOLE scam falls apart. But yeah when people hear me say this they disagree off course, but have no alternative to it...just want to act like sheep and by default those criminals in politics have won.

Muslims these days are also partly to be blamed, i am not arguing that. As many just follow culture like sheep. Understand little to nothing about Islam, but when seeing injustice done, they do not use their brain rather act upon emotion and thus kill innocent people during the fight. They also often have developed this SICK mentality of what the US-government already invented (Collateral damage).
Reply

Mustafa16
05-24-2017, 06:06 AM
Tragic that such mindless killings of civilians becomes a fact of life, the new normal. Killing of civilians in war is PROHIBITED IN ISLAM. PERIOD However, I see what Simple_Person is TRYING to say, that the terrorists have been radicalized by western foreign policy, however, that does not justify killing of innocents, no matter what, and I feel like much of this debate stems from the timing of his statements, and while ending western wars would certainly help, @Simple_Person , now is not the time to discuss the West's wrongdoing when ISIS has carried out the atrocities. Also, I agree with @Silas, much of the terrorism in the Muslim world can be blamed on the wahhabis/salafis. and their financer, Saudi Arabia. This is not a coincidence. When you teach people extreme ideologies they will find it difficult to act normally, especially when you dehumanize non muslims and "heretics." Many of the regional actors are either horrendous dictatorships that end up with revolutions, or nations that instigate the conflict, as was the case with Syria having gasoline poured on it by nations such as KSA and Turkey. My aunt personally knows syrian refugees (sunnis) who pray that erdogan will be punished for what he did to syria by dividing the people and arming radicals and turning the war into a sectarian war, and they pray from the moment they wake up to when they go to sleep. some others know my mother, and say they can relate to being unable to return to their home country due to erdogan (my family is of a religious sect that is being blamed for many false accusations, such as the idea that it is a parallel state, and are treated with the utmost contempt and scapegoating, especially after the bloody July 15, 2016 coup attempt in Turkey). I have also met syrians in school who were sunni, who did not support the rebels. im not saying assad, gaddafi, etc are angels. they are/were, horrible, horrible dictators. but when wars occur in their nations, and foreign actors (Muslims included) arm the opposition, it only adds fuel to the fire. you'll find that the majority of syrian rebels these days are just as bad, almost as bad, or even worse than assad himself! but anyway, back to the main topic, it is also tragic that these people died, and their loved ones grieve, and moreover it is tragic they died without the chance to convert to Islam. When Rasulullah (PBUH) heard of the death of a pagan (mushrik, idol worshipper), he cried, and when asked why, he said he was not given the chance to convert to Islam and be able to go to heaven, before dying. Also, contrary to popular belief, Rasulullah (PBUH) was a peacemaker, not a fighter. He spent 12 years of his life making dawah to the makkans and the people of taif later, in spite of their harsh treatment of him, and when the people of taif threw stones at him until he was drenched in blood, an angel appeared and asked if he wanted the people to be crushed by the mountains. how did he react? by saying, "if i can not convince them, at least their progeny" now look at taif, and tell me, how many non muslims there are? he spent another 10-11 years preaching to the people of madinah, and he only fought after he WAS DRIVEN FROM HIS HOME and the Makkans STILL FOUGHT HIM, and only after Allah ordered him. we also live in age of international organizations and justice, like the UN, UN security council, ICC, interwoven economics, sanctions. we should make good use of it. That is how we should react. In accordance with the sunnah, while adjusting to modern times. Allahu alam.
Reply

Mustafa16
05-24-2017, 06:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DanEdge
Greetings,

My past experience with Islamic Board, and other interactions with Muslims, has changed my perception on events like this.

Many facts go unreported or under-reported by news agencies. Unreported: The vast majority of the Muslim world vehemently rejects attacks like this (especially against children). Unreported: Most moderate and even conservative Muslims categorically reject such terrorist acts on a theological basis, and can recite chapter and verse for reasoning. Unreported: Many Muslim fanatics/nerds will crush you with scholarship in any attempt to brand them as supporters of terrorism. Unreported: Individuals in the Muslim world have hearts, and they bleed in response to the suffering of anyone, in any nation, anywhere. Unreported: Muslims have love and respect for non-believers, assuming that such love and respect is earned though virtue.

I am an American. I am from South Carolina, the cradle of Revolution for ignorance and slavery. My state voted for Trump. Yet still, there are many here who seek knowledge and support truth. I make no apologies or excuses; we are many, and we are who we are.

Sincerely,

--Dan Edge
Thank you, Dan, I really appreciate the fact that you would join this forum and then come to such an understanding on the fact that we are not so different after all, and that prejudice is rooted in ignorance......it is important to remember that dialogue and education is the only way out of this constant cycle of violence.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-24-2017, 06:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16
Tragic that such mindless killings of civilians becomes a fact of life, the new normal. Killing of civilians in war is PROHIBITED IN ISLAM. PERIOD However, I see what Simple_Person is TRYING to say, that the terrorists have been radicalized by western foreign policy, however, that does not justify killing of innocents, no matter what, and I feel like much of this debate stems from the timing of his statements, and while ending western wars would certainly help, @Simple_Person , now is not the time to discuss the West's wrongdoing when ISIS has carried out the atrocities. Also, I agree with @Silas, much of the terrorism in the Muslim world can be blamed on the wahhabis/salafis. and their financer, Saudi Arabia. This is not a coincidence. When you teach people extreme ideologies they will find it difficult to act normally, especially when you dehumanize non muslims and "heretics." Many of the regional actors are either horrendous dictatorships that end up with revolutions, or nations that instigate the conflict, as was the case with Syria having gasoline poured on it by nations such as KSA and Turkey. My aunt personally knows syrian refugees (sunnis) who pray that erdogan will be punished for what he did to syria by dividing the people and arming radicals and turning the war into a sectarian war, and they pray from the moment they wake up to when they go to sleep. some others know my mother, and say they can relate to being unable to return to their home country due to erdogan. I have also met syrians in school who were sunni, who did not support the rebels. im not saying assad, gaddafi, etc are angels. they are/were, horrible, horrible dictators. but when wars occur in their nations, and foreign actors (Muslims included) arm the opposition, it only adds fuel to the fire. you'll find that the majority of syrian rebels these days are just as bad, almost as bad, or even worse than assad himself! but anyway, back to the main topic, it is also tragic that these people died, and their loved ones grieve, and moreover it is tragic they died without the chance to convert to Islam. When Rasulullah (PBUH) heard of the death of a pagan (mushrik, idol worshipper), he cried, and when asked why, he said he was not given the chance to convert to Islam and be able to go to heaven, before dying. That is how we should react. In accordance with the sunnah. Allahu alam.
This is the biggest issue, "now is not the time to discuss the West's wrongdoing when ISIS has carried out the atrocities" ..when is the time? I am not sure if many of us have been living under a rock or so, this IS NOT the first bombing you know. I am not sure if you have been awake for the last 2-3 years. Because people are crying which they have the right to do so and should even do so, but when even a month or a year has gone by, NOBODY is bringing up the corrupt politicians problem as the root cause of it.

So all that is is blaming the individual (symptom) for what has happened and that is it? Look at what France has done after Paris. They just sent their troops to Syria..the people there NOBODY stood up against their own government. Right now even with Macron i believe he would not have won that many votes, but was rather a bundling of forces to win from le Pen. This guy is no better than le Pen herself. All corrupt politicians but walking a different road. NOTHING is done against them, well go and walk that path (people who vote for these criminals), but the REAL victims will be the REAL Muslims that want to practice Islam as it should be practiced. As they are being blamed for ISIS and they will be attacked by the people who have build up anger and hatred against Islam as you see now and then in the news.

The age of confusion, but nobody wants to think even if you give them everything they need to think about.

Muslims now a days seriously ..i am shocked by what i see and hear. Feeling sorry for what has happened (bombing), i am 100% with it, however that is it what i see nothing else. After that nobody is questioning and rather go back as zombies behind their tv following their tv series. Is this what our religion has become? Just feel sorry for the victims and do not dig in to find the root cause of these evil acts? How evil we Muslims even have become i could even argue.

Then we have at the mosques all those dua's ooh Allah protect us from this and ooh Allah protect us from that..but we Muslims are selves have become the sickness because we THINK that Islam is the religion of empathy, but not the one of justice. Well look around you how Allah is humiliating us for it and we DESERVE it if you ask me. I am being very honest, as we Muslims have nothing left but pride, arrogance, nationalism, culture, injustice, dishonesty, cowardliness, inequality, rudeness, hypocrisy.
Reply

anatolian
05-24-2017, 06:30 AM
An interesting point, ISIS owns it but CIA says they didnt find a connection..
Reply

Mustafa16
05-24-2017, 06:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
This is the biggest issue, "now is not the time to discuss the West's wrongdoing when ISIS has carried out the atrocities" ..when is the time? I am not sure if many of us have been living under a rock or so, this IS NOT the first bombing you know. I am not sure if you have been awake for the last 2-3 years. Because people are crying which they have the right to do so and should even do so, but when even a month or a year has gone by, NOBODY is bringing up the corrupt politicians problem as the root cause of it.

So all that is is blaming the individual (symptom) for what has happened and that is it? Look at what France has done after Paris. They just sent their troops to Syria..the people there NOBODY stood up against their own government. Right now even with Macron i believe he would not have won that many votes, but was rather a bundling of forces to win from le Pen. This guy is no better than le Pen herself. All corrupt politicians but walking a different road. NOTHING is done against them, well go and walk that path (people who vote for these criminals), but the REAL victims will be the REAL Muslims that want to practice Islam as it should be practiced. As they are being blamed for ISIS and they will be attacked by the people who have build up anger and hatred against Islam as you see now and then in the news.

The age of confusion, but nobody wants to think even if you give them everything they need to think about.

Muslims now a days seriously ..i am shocked by what i see and hear. Feeling sorry for what has happened (bombing), i am 100% with it, however that is it what i see nothing else. After that nobody is questioning and rather go back as zombies behind their tv following their tv series. Is this what our religion has become? Just feel sorry for the victims and do not dig in to find the root cause of these evil acts? How evil we Muslims even have become i could even argue.

Then we have at the mosques all those dua's ooh Allah protect us from this and ooh Allah protect us from that..but we Muslims are selves have become the sickness because we THINK that Islam is the religion of empathy, but not the one of justice. Well look around you how Allah is humiliating us for it and we DESERVE it if you ask me. I am being very honest, as we Muslims have nothing left but pride, arrogance, nationalism, culture, injustice, dishonesty, cowardliness, inequality, rudeness, hypocrisy.
The West's aggression stems from reacting to Muslim desires to conquer their own nations through terrorism, lack of respect for human rights in their own countries, and terrorism against the West UNPROVOKED. Look at the ideology of Qutbism, which started this whole terrorism nonsense. Then you'll see that this did not start with the kuffar's "envy and hatred of the Muslims" Look at the fall of the Ottoman empire. The Ottomans were getting more and more backward and were abandoning Islamic values, to the point that they were referred to as the "sick man of europe" and rising arab and european nationalism combined with turkish nationalism which alienated their peoples made it INEVITABLE that the ummah would fall. Not to mention the fact that the Ottomans took the wrong side in world war i, and the Muslims made many economic mistakes (failure to adapt to modern day technologies, as well as internal divisions) which made them susceptible to colonialism. so it isn't ALL the west. and you can not look at thing strictly from black and white cause and effect. the answer to the problems of the muslim world is not jihad against the west, or change in western foreign policy, or whatever. it is education. on BOTH sides. dialogue, and education. that is what many people in the Gulen movement are trying to do, and that is what many other groups are doing, and that is what muslims and non muslims alike should be doing.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-24-2017, 07:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16
The West's aggression stems from reacting to Muslim desires to conquer their own nations through terrorism, lack of respect for human rights in their own countries, and terrorism against the West UNPROVOKED. Look at the ideology of Qutbism, which started this whole terrorism nonsense. Then you'll see that this did not start with the kuffar's "envy and hatred of the Muslims" Look at the fall of the Ottoman empire. The Ottomans were getting more and more backward and were abandoning Islamic values, to the point that they were referred to as the "sick man of europe" and rising arab and european nationalism combined with turkish nationalism which alienated their peoples made it INEVITABLE that the ummah would fall. Not to mention the fact that the Ottomans took the wrong side in world war i, and the Muslims made many economic mistakes (failure to adapt to modern day technologies, as well as internal divisions) which made them susceptible to colonialism. so it isn't ALL the west. and you can not look at thing strictly from black and white cause and effect. the answer to the problems of the muslim world is not jihad against the west, or change in western foreign policy, or whatever. it is education. on BOTH sides. dialogue, and education. that is what many people in the Gulen movement are trying to do, and that is what many other groups are doing, and that is what muslims and non muslims alike should be doing.
I agree with some point and disagree with others, please firstly, stop bringing this Gulen movement each time in the discussion. NO they are NOT trying to "educate" people, it is just another way to put Turkish nationalism in the hearts and minds of people. Every time i tell you this, you do not reply to it and again in another topic you bring it up. Start facing this for once and make up your mind if they indeed are nothing but nationalism that you stop promoting them, if they are NOT this nationalism that i am talking about, do give me your argument, because so far you have not done that.

Anyways, the Ottoman empire indeed had this imperial desires to conquer instead of following the Islamic way of life. This however is the heart of the Ottoman empire, now the rest of the Muslim world is suffering because of it. Were the Arabs the ones that were agreeing with what the Ottoman were doing? Were the Kurds the ones agreeing with this? I know that many under their ranks were Kurds, however i also know of Kurds even in those times fighting the Ottomans, so also on this i see that the Kurds did not agree with them. With these things, suddenly EVERYBODY has become the victim of the sick man. EVERY Muslim.

Allah has made the current Turks as blind as blindness can be defined. All they see is indeed this desire to conquer all places and restore the sick man once again. However how evil the current Turks have become has no boundaries. Hypocrisy at it's top. At the one hand they play the Muslim-card and all those foolish nationalistic Muslims among Turks, but also Arabs, Kurds are blindly following, at the other hand they play the NATO-card which is killing Muslims. When you try to talk to rationalistic Turks, they say ..it is politics..as if Islam at the one hand you can rape a woman and on the other hand you can pray. Islam isn't cherry picking you know.

"Then, you are those [same ones who are] killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do." Qur'an 2:85

The words in the Qur'an aren't meant to decorate a book you know.

Turkey currently is already their dog (NATO the master), however why should the rest of the Muslim world be punished for it? That is my argument. Go (NATO) rape the Turks if you like i do not care, but do not bring the rest of the Ummah with it. So fighting back is one thing, but doing more damage to other innocent people is also a thing you know.

If nobody would buy the oil from Saudi, if nobody would do business with gulf states, what do you think will happen? Do you really think those corrupt Arabs will stand firm on their feet? So no, it started back when the Ottoman empire fell, and till now education is prevent BECAUSE of supporting such dictators.

Education is key for rise of revolutions as i have already said, however if education is given, there will be no longer dictators that would be supported by the west. In other words Oil crisis of 73..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

However if such things would happen, people in the west that see gas as the BASIC necessity and driving your car to the shop as a necessity, suddenly will be deprived from those luxurious things will off course revolt. It is like a child when a child has certain toys and you take away those toys he does not look at the times that he never had those toys, but that those toys belongs to him and should not be taken from him. How many people would be able to afford a car if prices would go way high? Although the chance that that would happen is very slim, because Iran has joined and Russia is now i believe #1 exporter of oil and shale oil in US is a fact not forgetting brent oil field that has been active since 1976. In other words let the Arabs get the hit..let them. Who cares? Off course the prices would spike as i believe Saudi is #2 exporter of oil and such, but still it can be managed.

But corrupt officials like the dirty oil money from the Arabs.

Go watch documentary called "Shadow World (2016)"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2626338/

At first one might think it is a paradox, however if you deeply analyze this, you see that ALL starts with corrupt western politicians.
Reply

Serinity
05-24-2017, 09:51 AM
:salam:

These incidents, and the corrupt leaders.. And the ban of niqab.

Things are becoming harder for us. And the one's who want the Niqab banned, i.e. a part of Islam banned, have NO reason to ban it except that they hate it.

We should stand against anything that tries to undermine our religion. Be it ISIS giving a bad image, or the politicians.
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Simple_Person
05-24-2017, 10:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

These incidents, and the corrupt leaders.. And the ban of niqab.

Things are becoming harder for us. And the one's who want the Niqab banned, i.e. a part of Islam banned, have NO reason to ban it except that they hate it.

We should stand against anything that tries to undermine our religion. Be it ISIS giving a bad image, or the politicians.
"Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?" Qur'an 29:2

"But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars." Qur'an 29:3

===Hadith====

"Islam began as something strange and will go back to being strange, so glad tidings to the strangers." It was said: "Who are the strangers? ' He said: "Strangers who have left their families and tribes."

Source used: https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/36/63

For sure Allah is cleaning out the Ummah and ONLY the true Muslims by heart will stay firm on the path even if it costs them their lives.
Reply

Silas
05-24-2017, 04:21 PM
As I have said before, this is a problem that cannot be solved through foreign policy and military action.

Jihadist terrorism, which springs from elements within the Salafist/Wahhabist movements, is something that needs to be confronted and defeated by Muslims themselves. Time is running out.

Many people in the west don't know the difference between Sunni and Shia, and certainly don't know the difference between the schools of thought within Sunni Islam. They see terrorist attacks all over the world, airports and train stations being shut down, children being searched for weapons before they go into school, and they get scared. They then group all Muslims together and say they are all dangerous radicals.

ISIS has declared publicly that even if the western nations were to pull all of their troops and civilians out of the Middle East, ISIS would continue attacking "infidels" all over the world. Their goal is to radicalize existing Muslims, spread Jihad, and instill terror. It is global conquest and genocide.

Getting rid of a Niqab ban in France isn't going to stop the terrorism.

Prayers, denunciations, vigils, etc. --none of that stuff does anything to correct the problem. What is needed is a comprehensive, cooperate approach toward what we know the problem is. If violent radicals are allowed to hijack Islam unchecked, there will be a terrible blowback in Europe that looks like Kristallnacht--or worse. Some Muslims complain of poor treatment and intolerance: believe me, they haven't seen poor treatment yet. We don't want things to deteriorate to that point.
Reply

Eric H
05-24-2017, 04:54 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Silas;

As I have said before, this is a problem that cannot be solved through foreign policy and military action.
Agreed, but this is exactly what America is trying to do.

ISIS has declared publicly that even if the western nations were to pull all of their troops and civilians out of the Middle East, ISIS would continue attacking "infidels" all over the world. Their goal is to radicalize existing Muslims, spread Jihad, and instill terror. It is global conquest and genocide.
The people I fear the most are the Americans. The countries they have bombed since WW2 represent roughly one-third of the people on earth. Taken from....

http://www.maurer.ca/USBombing.html

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth.

Eric
Reply

Simple_Person
05-24-2017, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Silas
As I have said before, this is a problem that cannot be solved through foreign policy and military action.

Jihadist terrorism, which springs from elements within the Salafist/Wahhabist movements, is something that needs to be confronted and defeated by Muslims themselves. Time is running out.

Many people in the west don't know the difference between Sunni and Shia, and certainly don't know the difference between the schools of thought within Sunni Islam. They see terrorist attacks all over the world, airports and train stations being shut down, children being searched for weapons before they go into school, and they get scared. They then group all Muslims together and say they are all dangerous radicals.

ISIS has declared publicly that even if the western nations were to pull all of their troops and civilians out of the Middle East, ISIS would continue attacking "infidels" all over the world. Their goal is to radicalize existing Muslims, spread Jihad, and instill terror. It is global conquest and genocide.

Getting rid of a Niqab ban in France isn't going to stop the terrorism.

Prayers, denunciations, vigils, etc. --none of that stuff does anything to correct the problem. What is needed is a comprehensive, cooperate approach toward what we know the problem is. If violent radicals are allowed to hijack Islam unchecked, there will be a terrible blowback in Europe that looks like Kristallnacht--or worse. Some Muslims complain of poor treatment and intolerance: believe me, they haven't seen poor treatment yet. We don't want things to deteriorate to that point.
Terrorism and Jihad are two separate things. Terrorism as how we now a days see it (killing of innocent civilians), that is already contradictory to teaching of Islam. Jihad on the other hand is part of Islam and NO Muslim can say this needs to be abolished or not be practiced anymore.

Jihad in these days however and we are talking about war it self, cannot be done, as the leader of the group you are fighting for needs to be known already. However this is unknown as often when one really does dig in, the leader is CIA/Mossad Or Turkey or Gulf states or Iran etc. ..and NONE are rather having the intention to fight injustice, rather power and control.

Salafist also is a hijacked word as well as wahhabism i believe.

First define the right word for it, then comes the rest. However this day and age, when you REALLY dig in, you WILL end up with corrupt WESTERN politicians.

Corrupt western politician ----> sets up a dictator in the Middle East

Dictator in the Middle East ------> Obeys western corrupt politician

Western corrupt politician -----> Buys oil from dictator

Dictator -----> buys weapons from western corrupt politician (western corrupt politician gets commission)

Dictator -----> Gets training from western corrupt politician how to suppress the people (propaganda and torture and prevention of good education), not to forget also prevent freedom of thinking, which turns to radicalism.


Stop the corrupt western politician, then you stop the whole cycle. The dictator has no money to buy weapons, nor able to sell the oil to gain money..in other words goodbye dictator. No war, people (refugees and people who are not really British or Europeans etc) go back to their countries and start rebuilding. Because people start good education, no more radicalization in other words Islam practiced the right way as people start to UNDERSTAND what Islam is about and not that black an white that ISIS has been creating.

BTW, nationalism will also fall, as often it is the instructions of the western policy's that create this dividends called nationalism.

If i am wrong, do show me how my conclusion is wrong as i see it as rather a very easy problem to figure out what is the root cause.
Reply

Silas
05-24-2017, 06:35 PM
I agree with much of that, but the terrorists have made it clear that they are not acting in response to western aggression, or even oppression by puppet dictators, but out of ideological and religious impulses.

The conditions created by oppression, western domination, etc., may make a person more likely to embrace violent radicalism, but that is not always the case. Bin Laden grew up in a wealthy, privileged family. Many of his followers did not suffer poverty or even oppression, and some were educated in the west.

As I understand it, Bin Laden was a follower of Qutbism, so calling him a Wahhabi is technically incorrect. But we have seen problems coming from the Wahhabis for a while. They were the ones who put passages into Saudi Arabian schoolbooks instructing kids to kill Jews and infidels, and their teachings are embraced by ISIS.

Taking away the dictators and western interference in the Middle East isn't going to make radical extremism go away. It could certainly be part of the solution, but it isn't the entire solution.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-24-2017, 06:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Silas
I agree with much of that, but the terrorists have made it clear that they are not acting in response to western aggression, or even oppression by puppet dictators, but out of ideological and religious impulses.

The conditions created by oppression, western domination, etc., may make a person more likely to embrace violent radicalism, but that is not always the case. Bin Laden grew up in a wealthy, privileged family. Many of his followers did not suffer poverty or even oppression, and some were educated in the west.

As I understand it, Bin Laden was a follower of Qutbism, so calling him a Wahhabi is technically incorrect. But we have seen problems coming from the Wahhabis for a while. They were the ones who put passages into Saudi Arabian schoolbooks instructing kids to kill Jews and infidels, and their teachings are embraced by ISIS.

Taking away the dictators and western interference in the Middle East isn't going to make radical extremism go away. It could certainly be part of the solution, but it isn't the entire solution.
People act upon opression, people like ISIS however do not follow such a way, they rather just go by their ideology. These people have a mentality that cannot be eradicated. Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) has warned us about such people. In the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) one of the first of such people started. I mean to even have a prophet among you and behave in such a way is some scary mentality. So it doesn't matter if you have justice run all over the world such people will exist.

Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) has said if i would encounter them, i would kill them as they are the dogs of the hell. In other words if a prophet even says such a thing, this rather shows that such a people just need to be killed as there is no other way. They are NOT up to wanting to think or have dialogue. All these people can understand is war.

So first leave the real Muslims a lone by getting those corrupt western politicians and the Muslims will even with alliance of the rest of the people on this world fight such a people.

However this is NOT done. Right now is all the Muslims are being attacked.
Reply

fromelsewhere
05-24-2017, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
However this is NOT done. Right now is all the Muslims are being attacked.
Tensions and Islamophobic incidents are increasing, but to generalize and say that "all Muslims are being attacked" is being quite dramatic.

I agree with what Silas said when he stated that: "Many people in the west don't know the difference between Sunni and Shia, and certainly don't know the difference between the schools of thought within Sunni Islam. They see terrorist attacks all over the world, airports and train stations being shut down, children being searched for weapons before they go into school, and they get scared. They then group all Muslims together and say they are all dangerous radicals."

But most people in the west are still quite open-minded, and they have not shut down their borders to Muslims, for instance. They are not banning mosques. The worst they have done is ban the niqab in public spaces in France. Note that the niqab is certainly not a requirement of Islam.
Reply

Serinity
05-25-2017, 01:23 AM
Since the one's who died are kuffar, they are all being punished now?

Ps. Are all kuffar the worst of creatures? Allah promised the kuffar Hell, does this apply here?
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fromelsewhere
05-25-2017, 02:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
Since the one's who died are kuffar, they are all being punished now?

Ps. Are all kuffar the worst of creatures? Allah promised the kuffar Hell, does this apply here?
Do you want the Salafi version of Islam? The average Salafi would say yes. https://islamqa.info/en/13350

Others might argue that they will be tested on the Day of Judgement
Reply

Simple_Person
05-25-2017, 06:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
Tensions and Islamophobic incidents are increasing, but to generalize and say that "all Muslims are being attacked" is being quite dramatic.

I agree with what Silas said when he stated that: "Many people in the west don't know the difference between Sunni and Shia, and certainly don't know the difference between the schools of thought within Sunni Islam. They see terrorist attacks all over the world, airports and train stations being shut down, children being searched for weapons before they go into school, and they get scared. They then group all Muslims together and say they are all dangerous radicals."

But most people in the west are still quite open-minded, and they have not shut down their borders to Muslims, for instance. They are not banning mosques. The worst they have done is ban the niqab in public spaces in France. Note that the niqab is certainly not a requirement of Islam.
What I mean by that statement is there isn't made a difference between peaceful Muslims and who are the peaceful Muslims? Knowing the difference or asking questions has two sides why this isn't happening.

1. Muslims are far away from Islamic teachings. They are not really that inviting when you look at them. Looking angry as if somebody just robbed them. While a Muslims has to smile and joke and spread warm feeling when somebody sees him/her.

2. Many western people just brand everything they do not know as something evil. Don't know a certain dish? Most probably tastes bad. Muslims have a habit they are foreign to..most probably bad...they have been brought up as if they are superior. The biggest sheep right now on earth are western people by majority.

The question off course is where does the solution lie? To my opinion it lies with the Muslims. Somebody might be a sheep ..somebody might look at everything that is unknown to them as bad ..but when somebody smiles and jokes people tend to lower their guards and laugh and joke back. However again how comes Muslims aren't doing that? Because Muslims themselves don't understand what Islam is about. Who is to be blamed? Dictators that prevent them to think freely to question ...which AGAIN brings us back to corrupt westen politicians....

It doesn't matter how you look at it..you will ALWAYS end up with corrupt western politicians being the root cause of it.

I joke and laugh with people of other faiths but I am absolutely not alone in this there are many more Muslims that do that and are even better in social interaction than I am. The question is how come there are such Muslims? We then come to the conclusion of free thinking but also pondering about both sides. Western people tend to stick as sheep with mass propaganda news and refuse to read other news of what is going on in the world. They are not even interested majority of times what is happening in other parts of the world because they are safe.

Muslims yes are brainwashed. Western people are brainwashed. In the west you can think freely however how come western people don't become like people who ask questions? Many just don't care ..as long as they are safe. This is also a very sick mentality to not look around and care about what is happening with other people.

There are those western people of other faiths that do questions and those people wake up and see what is going on. You see those people standing up for the oppressed..you see those people interact with all kind of people. However they still are a minority.

So again DO SOMETHING about corrupt western politicians if one wants change.
Reply

Singularity
05-25-2017, 07:19 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/celebrity/deva...183804255.html

U.S.‘Devastated’ Ariana Grande Met by Family as She Arrives in Florida Following Concert Terrorist Attack: ‘She Just Wants to Be with Loved Ones Right Now’ People Tue, May 23 12:38 PM MDT

Ariana Grande arrives at the 2016 Billboard Music Awards at T-Mobile Arena on May 22, 2016 in Las Vegas, Nevada. (Photo: Jon Kopaloff/FilmMagic)Singer Ariana Grande is safely home in the states, back in the arms of worried family after last night’s terror attack in Manchester. (Photo: Jon Kopaloff/FilmMagic)Ariana Grande has arrived back in the States following the devastating terrorist attack after her Manchester Arena show in the U.K. Monday evening.The singer, 23, was photographed landing in Boca Raton, Florida, where she was greeted by family at the airport, PEOPLE confirms.“It’s so, so sad. She loves her fans and is absolutely crushed and devastated as you can imagine,” a source close to Grande tells PEOPLE. “She can’t believe this happened. She just wants to be with her family and loved ones right now.”What began as a fun night out ended in tragedy when a suicide bomber blew himself up after Grande’s concert, killing 22 and injuring at least 59.The audience in Manchester included many children and teens, with their accompanying parents, and after the blast, eyewitnesses described to PEOPLE a scene of chaos and fear.Chief Constable Ian Hopkins of Greater Manchester Police said the explosion occurred around 10:33 p.m. local time near the ticket office outside the arena. Police believe the suspect, who is dead, is Salman Abedi, 22, said Hopkins, though he has not been formally identified by the coroner.In addition to Abedi, greater Manchester Police said they have arrested a 23-year-old man in connection with the incident, according to the Associated Press.“Broken,” Grande tweeted late Monday night. “From the bottom of my heart, I am so so sorry. I don’t have words.”The popstar’s team is currently assessing whether or not to continue her Dangerous Woman Tour following an attack at her Manchester Arena show Monday night that left 22 dead, but, “as of right now, the tour is not canceled,” a source close to the situation tells EW.“Right now, the focus is on the victims and grieving for them. We’re not focused on the tour,” the source adds. The source also clarified that Grande herself is physically “fine,” though “she’s just absolutely beside herself.”Grande is slated to perform at London’s O2 arena on Thursday and Friday, but the shows remain up in the air, with the venue tweeting, that they do not yet have an update as to whether or not the singer’s performances would happen as planned.

https://www.aol.com/article/news/201...cert/22108100/

Was Ariana Grande targeted? Former Jihadist says ISIS saw show as 'perverted PR opportunity' Inside EditionINSIDE EDITIONMay 24th 2017 5:54PMX

Ariana Grande sold-out Manchester Arena show may have specifically targeted by ISIS because of the singer's self-assurance and sexy, proudly feminine style, everything the terrorist organization despises.Read: Thousands Gather in Manchester Streets in Solidarity After Bombing: 'We Are the Many, They Are the Few'Grande has a vibrant social media following, and her concerts are packed with young women and girls who admire her message.Mubin Shaikh, a former extremist, believes ISIS viewed the attack as a kind of perverted "PR opportunity.""To hit a den of immorality, as ISIS acolytes are calling it, it's a great target for them," he said. "Ariana Grande is a big name brand; the media will descend on it. Children being killed will get coverage, and that emotional reaction. So, all these things are hitting at the same time at the same place."U2's Bono echoed that sentiment on Jimmy Kimmel Live Tuesday night."They hate music. They hate women. They even hate little girls. They hate everything that we love," the Irish rocker said. "The worst of humanity was on view in Manchester last night, but so was the best as people took perfect strangers into their houses and queued up at blood banks. Manchester has an undefeatable spirit, I can assure you."Now, some of the biggest stars in pop music are saying their shows will go on despite the carnage in Manchester.Photographers caught up to Nicki Minaj in Los Angeles where she said she will perform or else "they win."Katy Perry says she'll perform as scheduled at Radio 1's Big Weekend in Hull, England."I think that the greatest thing we could do is just unite and love on each other, and like, no barriers, no borders, like, we all need to just co-exist," she told Elvis Duran on Z100 radio in New York.Perry was blasted as "naive" by conservative commentator Michelle Malkin on Fox & Friends Wednesday morning.
Reply

AbdurRahman.
05-25-2017, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
The problem is that these people come from our community and often give warning signs that they are radicalizing. But unfortunately, instead of the community coming forward to try and encourage them to not do stupid things, the community is silent. It is important to reinforce the message that Islam is UNEQUIVOCALY AGAINST killing innocents. The terrorist in this case, Salman Abedi, was born & raised in England, and he worked at the local mosque where he apparently "gave a look of hate" after the imam preached against ISIS. People saw this but did not confront him. I am sure that someone must have known that he was up to no good.

Aside from the heinous murders he has committed, he has also tainted the image of Muslims further. This leads to more hate and tension that is certainly not needed and that makes the lives of Muslims in Western countries unnecessarily more difficult. These kinds of horrible events are bad for everyone, and no one benefits aside from the Shayteen (providing that he exists).


these people are very dangerous bro, even prime minister, police chiefs advice not to be a 'have a go hero'. if you confront a radical, what if he calls you a hypocryt, a 'kaafir sympathiser' and kills u? these people are too far gone bro, too far gone for us to change their minds [a security expert himself said this on sky news] so there you go, nothing will stop them unless the root causes are stopped by the uk government which is killing our innocent civilians in middle east! :Emoji29:

and about reporting mulims who show signs of radicalisation to the authorities; well would you squeal upon a mafia guy???; these people make the mafia look like a teddy bear picnic!
Reply

Serinity
05-25-2017, 01:38 PM
:salam:

And then the kuffar media will call this a terror attack, smh.

But when it is a white American kafir there is only excuses.

Now, this will only make things harder for us Muslims in the west.

Allahu alam.
Reply

Silas
05-25-2017, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

And then the kuffar media will call this a terror attack, smh.

But when it is a white American kafir there is only excuses.

Now, this will only make things harder for us Muslims in the west.

Allahu alam.
It is my understanding that the Imam at the mosque the terrorist had been attending spoke out against ISIS.

This is good to hear, but you have to understand that the "kafir" don't see this and don't hear about it. They don't know what goes on behind closed doors, and they wrongfully assume that many Muslims either support the radicals, or are simply afraid to speak out.

How many Fatwas have been issued against ISIS? I don't know the answer to that question, but I am going to assume that there haven't been enough.

In terms of public-relations, the best thing Muslims can do is to reach out to their communities. Hold conferences and meetings. Invite outsiders to the Masjid. Show them what Islam really looks like.

The Masjid in my area does this, and I know many of the members: they are terrific people. I then have to explain to some of my western friends that what they see on TV with masked radicals calling for the destruction of the west is NOT Islam.
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Serinity
05-25-2017, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Silas
It is my understanding that the Imam at the mosque the terrorist had been attending spoke out against ISIS.

This is good to hear, but you have to understand that the "kafir" don't see this and don't hear about it. They don't know what goes on behind closed doors, and they wrongfully assume that many Muslims either support the radicals, or are simply afraid to speak out.

How many Fatwas have been issued against ISIS? I don't know the answer to that question, but I am going to assume that there haven't been enough.

In terms of public-relations, the best thing Muslims can do is to reach out to their communities. Hold conferences and meetings. Invite outsiders to the Masjid. Show them what Islam really looks like.

The Masjid in my area does this, and I know many of the members: they are terrific people. I then have to explain to some of my western friends that what they see on TV with masked radicals calling for the destruction of the west is NOT Islam.
Yes, we need to be more vocal about Islam, and show what Islam really is. I was just pointing out the double standards of the media. While there should be fatwas about ISIS, there should also be fatwas about Jihad. From Muslim scholars, obviously.

On one side, there are kuffar who want to eradicate Muslims, they think that we are against modernisation. (Which we are) but they wrongly assume we are against all science and technology.

We are against all principles and morals that go against Islam. Be it supports of gay rights, or killings of innocents.

Then there are ISIS people who bombs innocents, etc. Wants every kafir dead. Two extremes.

I don't think it is time to get political, though.

Allahu alam.
Reply

Silas
05-25-2017, 02:31 PM
Here in the US, white guys like me are denounced in the media and schools as racists, oppressors, misogynists, etc. Everything we own is considered "stolen" from some minority group, and we are told to renounce our "privilege".

So, like Muslims, others are painted with a black brush as well.

But we should not assume the role of a victim and become disgruntled or resentful. That is the path to radicalism, either political or religious.

The people that are pushing these narratives about gay rights, class-antagonism, religion-as-evil, are a very specific group. I can tell you I don't like them any more than the most devout Muslim likes them, because their ideology is contrary to my own.
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noraina
05-25-2017, 03:36 PM
Often people forget the number of radicals is small, very small, but they have a disproportionate effect on world affairs.

Looking into the background of this guy, apparently he hadn't done well at school, he was estranged from his family, he had been involved in gang culture, he didn't know who he was or where he wanted to go...he was a bit of a 'failure' and extremists capitalised on that (as they always do) and gave him a warped sense of purpose and identity.

I don't think he particularly understood Islam - what he did was in violation of so many Islamic principles.

And there are those who'll use moments like this to hate on Islam, and I don't like the assumption that *we* are expected to apologise and take responsibility for his actions....but I have seen a lot of moments of unity and support for Muslims in the UK.
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fromelsewhere
05-25-2017, 11:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
these people are very dangerous bro, even prime minister, police chiefs advice not to be a 'have a go hero'. if you confront a radical, what if he calls you a hypocryt, a 'kaafir sympathiser' and kills u? these people are too far gone bro, too far gone for us to change their minds [a security expert himself said this on sky news] so there you go, nothing will stop them unless the root causes are stopped by the uk government which is killing our innocent civilians in middle east! :Emoji29:

and about reporting mulims who show signs of radicalisation to the authorities; well would you squeal upon a mafia guy???; these people make the mafia look like a teddy bear picnic!
If my brother was planning something like this, I would not hesitate one second to argue with him and do everything in my power to stop him. If that didn't work, I would have no problem letting the rest of my family know and the appropriate authorities.

Perhaps I am wrong and slightly mad but even if it weren't a direct relative of mine, I think that I would muster up the courage to politely argue with them and to try and reason with them. If that didn't work and I really thought that the guy was serious with his intentions, I would find a way to (anonymously) contact the police.

It depends on the situation, but I think that the risks of doing nothing are worse than the risks of at least trying something. Until they press that detonator button, there is still a small possibility of a change of heart.

The "uk government killing our innocent civilians in middle east!" is just a pretext that terrorists use. They would carry out terrorist attacks regardless. Look at the list of terrorist attacks for April 2017 alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._in_April_2017
Not all are committed by Muslims, but many are, and many target other Muslims!

The list for May 2017 is also worthy to take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ts_in_May_2017
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Simple_Person
05-26-2017, 06:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
If my brother was planning something like this, I would not hesitate one second to argue with him and do everything in my power to stop him. If that didn't work, I would have no problem letting the rest of my family know and the appropriate authorities.

Perhaps I am wrong and slightly mad but even if it weren't a direct relative of mine, I think that I would muster up the courage to politely argue with them and to try and reason with them. If that didn't work and I really thought that the guy was serious with his intentions, I would find a way to (anonymously) contact the police.

It depends on the situation, but I think that the risks of doing nothing are worse than the risks of at least trying something. Until they press that detonator button, there is still a small possibility of a change of heart.

The "uk government killing our innocent civilians in middle east!" is just a pretext that terrorists use. They would carry out terrorist attacks regardless. Look at the list of terrorist attacks for April 2017 alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._in_April_2017
Not all are committed by Muslims, but many are, and many target other Muslims!

The list for May 2017 is also worthy to take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ts_in_May_2017
You are making things as if they are so easy. As if somebody would come to you and say i am going to do X, Y and Z. Any sane person if they would hear that and can really confirm with that person going/intending to do that would go to the police or so.

However that is NOT the case. No person does say that to you. In Islam we have been warned against being suspicious of one another and what you are trying to do is make us be suspicious of one another. STOP spreading such propaganda, that are SOLELY your opinion based on your feelings and do NOT count in the Islamic perspectives. You are more than welcome to express your opinion here, but YOU KNOW that there are some principles in Islam that Muslims cannot cross and are even forbidden to cross, why do you not take those things in to account?

This isn't the first time you have spread such comments. If i were a admin i would have banned you along as they might not see that you are trying to break Muslims apart with your so called "rational" opinions, but it is nothing but doubt creating in the hearts of the Muslims on this forum and besides that being propaganda as if you are the sane person and we the Muslims are the insane people because we do not think like you.

That being sad, your comments are SO PRO-west and i am NOT talking pro-western people. Rather you try to sound like as if you are pro-western people, but all your comments exist of are pro-corrupt western politicians as you are repeating EXACTLY what they are repeating. Western people are also victims of the game, just like Muslims are, but you have put all the Muslims on a pile as if we are mostly to be blamed and better should abolish Islam and Islamic principles. That way the world would suddenly be fine and dandy.

Before Islam, it was USSR. Before USSR, it was Germany (WW2), before Germany, it was German(WW1), before Germany it was the British.

If i didn't know better, i would even argue that you are being paid to spread such comments on this forum.
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fromelsewhere
05-26-2017, 06:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
In Islam we have been warned against being suspicious of one another and what you are trying to do is make us be suspicious of one another. STOP spreading such propaganda, that are SOLELY your opinion based on your feelings and do NOT count in the Islamic perspectives. You are more than welcome to express your opinion here, but YOU KNOW that there are some principles in Islam that Muslims cannot cross and are even forbidden to cross, why do you not take those things in to account?
Hey, where have I said that we should be suspicious of one another? What I am arguing for is that if we hear someone say things that are wrong and that could lead the person down a bad path (example: someone who states that ISIS is good), we should talk with them instead of looking the other way and pretend that they didn't say anything. After all, if one of your friends expressed sudden disbelief in Islam, wouldn't you want to engage them and ask them why? Same logic applies here. You care for the person and you want to help them, so you try and prevent them from being 'misled' and doing something you consider to be very regrettable. If the person THEN discloses to you that they plan to do something that is obviously wrong (so now they want to act on their thoughts), for instance they say that they will blow themselves up in the near future, then you should act! After all, wouldn't you want to warn others to protect that idiot of his own life and potential victims, or do you want to have those potential victims' deaths on your conscious (and that idiot's too?), knowing that you did nothing to prevent something terrible from happening?

Imagine if a nut-job said that they wanted to commit a massacre at the place where a relative of yours works, but the person who heard them say that does nothing, and subsequently, the nut-job goes and does what he said he would do. Wouldn't you be angry at the person who did nothing and just shrugged it off?

(I will not reply to the rest of your post because it is completely wrong and off-topic).

EDIT: To clarify my view for the millionth billionth time, I absolutely do NOT have anything against Islam (I am an agnostic which means that I am in ? mode most of the time, but my level of belief -or disbelief- does vary from time to time), but I do see something quite wrong with SOME followers of Islam of our generation. The whole notion of a "suicide bomber" is a relatively new concept. Those didn't exist before the last 30 years or so. Unfortunately, it seems that more and more young men today are eager to engage in suicide attacks. This needs to stop!
Reply

Simple_Person
05-26-2017, 07:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
Hey, where have I said that we should be suspicious of one another? What I am arguing for is that if we hear someone say things that are wrong and that could lead the person down a bad path (example: someone who states that ISIS is good), we should talk with them instead of looking the other way and pretend that they didn't say anything. After all, if one of your friends expressed sudden disbelief in Islam, wouldn't you want to engage them and ask them why? Same logic applies here. You care for the person and you want to help them, so you try and prevent them from being 'misled' and doing something you consider to be very regrettable. If the person THEN discloses to you that they plan to do something that is obviously wrong (so now they want to act on their thoughts), for instance they say that they will blow themselves up in the near future, then you should act! After all, wouldn't you want to warn others to protect that idiot of his own life and potential victims, or do you want to have those potential victims' deaths on your conscious (and that idiot's too?), knowing that you did nothing to prevent something terrible from happening?

Imagine if a nut-job said that they wanted to commit a massacre at the place where a relative of yours works, but the person who heard them say that does nothing, and subsequently, the nut-job goes and does what he said he would do. Wouldn't you be angry at the person who did nothing and just shrugged it off?

(I will not reply to the rest of your post because it is completely wrong and off-topic).
Again you are making things as if somebody is wearing a T-shirt saying ISIS=good..and the day after wearing a t-shirt "I am a proud member of ISIS" or even make a appointment with you coming to tell you what they are planning to do.

That isn't the case and in my previous comment i have told you if somebody would approve ISIS, you would engage with them in dialogue. Some are just mislead which is common with people in general doesn't matter they must have a religion. However if somebody expresses sympathy towards ISIS in the sense of what they are doing is good in the present day (2017) (almost 3 years since their rising), that shows some ideas that are beyond repairing. If all this time NOTHING within their heart showed contradiction of what Islam says or just human nature says there is no way back for them. Which i already said one should go and warn the police.

Just recently i believe that i read a news article that SDF made a deal with ISIS in Tabaqah. The deal was that they could leave without anymore bloodshed. This is a REAL Islamic principle, doesn't matter who your enemy is. In the article it was said that about 70 ISIS members fled and US killed about 30 or 34 when they were fleeing. That is just barbaric and COWARD behavior of US. US later on said.."yeaah but we did not make that deal..it was SDF". I do not have any sympathy towards ISIS, but i do have principles and somebody who is fleeing should be left alone. Maybe later on they can realize how their life was spared and those that spared their lives aren't such evil people after all. In other words they start thinking straight and leave ISIS behind. Such people could even be very valuable assets in dismantling ISIS.

If one reads such news articles and if one has even a FEW principles, in ones eyes US is not even the slightest the good guy compared to ISIS. They are in my eyes just as barbaric and COWARDS like the guy that killed innocent people here with this concert. Every US soldier killed in battle sorry to say this, but i also see as less value. Some people might see me as "radical", sorry to say this, but they are doing the work of these corrupt western politicians and what i am saying is the truth and if you have even little bit of honesty you will even agree with me on this. If they till now of ALL THOSE wars still have not questioned US government, that is just blindly a sheep. Just like that so called Muslim guy with his wife that during presidency campaign in US, Clinton was using them to spread propaganda. Their son was killed in Iraq and they were branding him as a "hero" for fighting for US government as a Muslim. He is not even close to being a martyr. Allah has given people a brain to think, to analyze to question, yet money is more important for them than that.

Or even the guy in the movie "American Sniper", all i saw was a movie about a terrorist/criminal justifying killing innocent people/invading a country. Hollywood could as well make a movie about this guy that killed those innocent people at the concert and depict him as a hero. Well i would be angry for sure, just as how i was angry with that criminal/terrorist that was depicted as a hero in the movie "American Sniper". However people have double standards. For such people with double standards, being Muslim or person of other faith i do not feel sorry if they die. Such a evil people.

Wrong and offtopic? Well you say things that i see those IGNORANT Islam haters are spreading. I even leave those people alone and let them dig their own grave much deeper as there is no use to talk to them. However you are here on a Islamic forum spreading such propaganda.
Reply

Serinity
05-26-2017, 08:13 AM
:salam:

As a Muslim, I do not support the current ISIS, but, I do support the establishment of an Islamic State.

Maybe ISIS is even better than US in that US is much worse, because they invade countries, kill and rape, etc. And then try to act righteous.

Allahu alam.
Reply

fromelsewhere
05-26-2017, 08:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

As a Muslim, I do not support the current ISIS, but, I do support the establishment of an Islamic State.

Maybe ISIS is even better than US in that US is much worse, because they invade countries, kill and rape, etc. And then try to act righteous.

Allahu alam.
ISIS does not invade, kill and rape? ISIS does invade, kill and rape! Ask the Yazidis. Wait, they are dead.

Oh, and then ISIS claims to be following Islam. (Of course they are not!)

A link to a somewhat concerning Pew survey from 2013: http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/...remist-groups/

Although the majority of Muslims reject terrorism, a large enough minority is still ok with it. This is obviously quite problematic if we are to have world peace someday. We need to learn to live and let live. Suicide and murder is HARAM! End of story.
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Simple_Person
05-26-2017, 08:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
ISIS does not invade, kill and rape? ISIS does invade, kill and rape! Ask the Yazidis. Wait, they are dead.

A link to a somewhat concerning Pew survey from 2013: http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/...remist-groups/

Although the majority of Muslims reject terrorism, a large enough majority are still ok with it. This is obviously quite problematic if we are to have world peace.
I am getting more and more sure of it you are being paid for spreading such comments and propaganda.
Reply

fromelsewhere
05-26-2017, 08:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
I am getting more and more sure of it you are being paid for spreading such comments and propaganda.
Absolutely not. I am surprised at how you reason. Also, what "propaganda" are you talking about? Do you think that I am wrong in claiming that ISIS are a bunch of loser idiots? Or do you think that the Pew survey is not good enough? You are welcome to do your own survey if you want.
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Serinity
05-26-2017, 08:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
ISIS does not invade, kill and rape? ISIS does invade, kill and rape! Ask the Yazidis. Wait, they are dead.

Oh, and then ISIS claims to be following Islam. (Of course they are not!)

A link to a somewhat concerning Pew survey from 2013: http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/...remist-groups/

Although the majority of Muslims reject terrorism, a large enough minority is still ok with it. (Note how the Pew survey report tries and makes things sound reassuring, but when you look at the numbers more closely, you notice that they are not that great). This is obviously quite nif we are to have world peace someday. We need to learn to live and let live. Suicide and murder is HARAM! End of story.
Unlike US, ISIS is honest about it.. Or it is propaganda. IDk, but US tries to act righteous when doing stuff like this - that is what I find disgusting.

They bomb and kill 10000s of innocents, and when a few 19 deaths in a UK concert dies, they go head over heels. It disgusts me.

Of course Suicide and murder is haram.
Reply

fromelsewhere
05-26-2017, 08:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
Unlike US, ISIS is honest about it.. Or it is propaganda. IDk, but US tries to act righteous when doing stuff like this - that is what I find disgusting.

They bomb and kill 10000s of innocents, and when a few 19 deaths in a UK concert dies, they go head over heels. It disgusts me.

Of course Suicide and murder is haram.
ISIS is honest? Come on! US airstrikes usually target and kill ISIS militants. They are not purposefully trying to kill civilians like terrorists are. But they are very clumsy and gross in their approach (and to some extent, it is not surprising as it is difficult to be precise when you target terrorists who are hiding in villages among civilians from high above). Saudi airstrikes in Yemen are comparable. They target Houthis but will occasionally make civilian victims as well. The alternative is NO intervention at all against ISIS. Is that better? I don't know.

This is NOT IN ANY WAY an excuse for US intervention in the ME as I think that the US clearly don't know what they are doing in the region and should not get involved AT ALL to begin with because they just end up making things worst by trying to play "god".

I think the US should be the very last country to get involved in the ME.

(I just want to stop the black-and-white thinking that is pervasive on here that Muslims are all good and Westerners are all evil and corrupt.)
Reply

Simple_Person
05-26-2017, 09:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
Absolutely not. I am surprised at how you reason. Also, what "propaganda" are you talking about? Do you think that I am wrong in claiming that ISIS are a bunch of loser idiots? Or do you think that the Pew survey is not good enough? You are welcome to do your own survey if you want.
This is exactly what those guys who spread propaganda do, they speak about obvious things when somebody confronts them, but not about those things things they know they are doing on purpose. Everybody knows ISIS are bunch of losers and people on this forum who SAY they are Muslims do already agree on this, nobody is arguing against it.

But all i see in your comments is how you depict especially the Muslims are the ones responsible. For example if you read my comment. I have said

- Corrupt western politicians/terrorists
- Sheep loser/terrorist soldiers that rather take money instead of asking questions and using their brains
- ISIS criminals/terrorists.
- Muslims who just follow blindly and don't understand anything about their religion and don't care to do so either

However reading your comments, all you repeat is..Muslims, ISIS..Muslims..ISIS. People who just do that in other words just blame other people and do not take in to consideration that there is MORE to the game than what meets the eye meet the criteria of probably being paid to do that. I have given you a clear analysis how come those corrupt western politicians are the core problem. People like ISIS will exist no matter what as the first rose even during the time of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and directly saying something that is unheard of against a prophet while saying he is a Muslim.

However it almost looks like you try to defend what the west is doing and rather make ISIS or Muslims the core problem of this. You do not give argument why your argument is rather valid and mine or others isn't but just repeat again what you said.

This is a typical behavior of those people that just want to spread propaganda. I welcome people of any religion on this forum for soul purpose of respectful and ESPECIALLY HONEST dialogue/discussion. However all you do is spread propaganda and depict Muslims as the core problem.

That to me shows that there is a BIG chance you are being paid to do this.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-26-2017, 09:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
ISIS is honest? Come on! US airstrikes usually target and kill ISIS militants. They are not purposefully trying to kill civilians like terrorists are. But they are very clumsy and gross in their approach (and to some extent, it is not surprising as it is difficult to be precise when you target terrorists who are hiding in villages among civilians from high above). Saudi airstrikes in Yemen are comparable. They target Houthis but will occasionally make civilian victims as well. The alternative is NO intervention at all against ISIS. Is that better? I don't know.

This is NOT IN ANY WAY an excuse for US intervention in the ME as I think that the US clearly don't know what they are doing in the region and should not get involved AT ALL to begin with because they just end up making things worst by trying to play "god".

I think the US should be the very last country to get involved in the ME.

(I just want to stop the black-and-white thinking that is pervasive on here that Muslims are all good and Westerners are all evil and corrupt.)
"US airstrikes usually target and kill ISIS militants and they are not purposefully trying to kill civilians like terrorists are?



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fromelsewhere
05-26-2017, 09:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
I have given you a clear analysis how come those corrupt western politicians are the core problem. People like ISIS will exist no matter what as the first rose even during the time of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and directly saying something that is unheard of against a prophet while saying he is a Muslim.

This is a typical behavior of those people that just want to spread propaganda. I welcome people of any religion on this forum for soul purpose of respectful and ESPECIALLY HONEST dialogue/discussion. However all you do is spread propaganda and depict Muslims as the core problem.

That to me shows that there is a BIG chance you are being paid to do this.
What clear analysis? You are just trying to attack the messenger (me) by saying that I am being paid and spreading propaganda rather than by directly arguing back on my points. There is no purpose in me arguing with you anymore.
Reply

Simple_Person
05-26-2017, 09:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
What clear analysis? You are just trying to attack the messenger (me) by saying that I am being paid and spreading propaganda rather than by directly arguing back on my points. There is no purpose in me arguing with you anymore.
You messenger? If you were just the messenger, it was as clear as daylight. However hiding under the banner of a messenger, doesn't make you a messenger, just like how journalists hide under the banner of freedom of journalism, freedom of speed etc..





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fromelsewhere
05-26-2017, 10:31 AM
^ Please stop with the random videos and conspiracy theories. It doesn't help your argument one bit about how evil the West is.

As a side note: of course there is a script for the news! Presenters read off a teleprompter. They don't just make things up! This is entirely normal, and it does not mean that the news is "fake".
Reply

Muhammad
05-26-2017, 11:06 AM
It look like this thread is veering off-topic. In line with the announcement here, this thread is now closed.
Reply

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