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View Full Version : Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterbury



Simple_Person
06-06-2017, 01:51 PM
Look at this clown =_=!. I'm sorry brother @Eric H , but i lose with each day respect towards Christian preachers and bishops and down that road. "People pleasers" but not God pleasers.

"The Archbishop seemed to suggest it would be hypocritical for Muslim leaders to refuse any correlation between the terrorist acts and Islam, and that it would be akin to saying Christians had no involvement in the Srebrenica massacre of more than 8,000 Muslims at the hands of the Bosnian Serb Army. “I don’t think it is getting us anywhere, just like saying Srebrenica had nothing to do with Christianity,

How on earth does Islam say go kill innocent Muslims? Has he lost it completely? Or even blaming Christianity for Srebrenica massacre. These people are the cause religion is being looked at in such a bad way. Because they take responsibility as if it is Christianity or Islam at fault for such insane people. These people who have such a say in these matters are in my eyes even MORE evil than the ones who are doing the killing. Because of such people green light is given for secular governments to ban more and more religious things. People even being prosecuted because they follow a religion in the end. Such people are not only a disgrace to Christianity, but also to religion in general. As if such evil people with intention say such things as they have a hidden agenda to get rid of the religion by speaking on behalf of religion. Somebody who truly believes what he believes and KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS what his religion is all about..how on earth can they say my religion has to do with such evil acts of killing innocent people?

======News article==========


Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby has urged faith leaders to take action against religion being adopted as a pretext to commit mass terrorist atrocities. Speaking in the aftermath of the London Bridge terrorist attack on Saturday evening, which killed seven and injured almost 50, Welby said a fundamental lack of religious knowledge is hindering authorities’ attempts to counter the theology behind acts of terrorism.

“They are often people who are unable to put themselves in the shoes of religious believers and understand a way of looking at the world that says that this defines your whole life, every single aspect of who you are and what you are,” he told the BBC Today program on Monday. The Church of England’s highest cleric called on all leaders, religious and secular, to acknowledge the ideological nature of “religiously motivated violence,” as failing to do so would likely make it “impossible” to overcome. Welby said religion has been “twisted and misused” throughout history to accommodate violence. “We have got to say that if something happens within our own faith tradition we need to take responsibility for countering that.” The Archbishop seemed to suggest it would be hypocritical for Muslim leaders to refuse any correlation between the terrorist acts and Islam, and that it would be akin to saying Christians had no involvement in the Srebrenica massacre of more than 8,000 Muslims at the hands of the Bosnian Serb Army. “I don’t think it is getting us anywhere, just like saying Srebrenica had nothing to do with Christianity,” he said. Although he praised the “extraordinary” condemnation of the London Bridge attack by every “significant” Muslim leader and body, he said that Islam is missing a “structure."

“From an outside perspective, one of the issues about dealing with Islam is that there is not much of a structure. There isn’t a pope or a bishop that you can go to and say these are the leaders. “There will always be particular groups which take views that are different from the mainstream but what is clear over the weekend is the extraordinary level of condemnation by every significant Muslim leader we know and every significant Muslim body we know.” It follows the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) condemnation of the attack in the “strongest terms.” “I am appalled and angered by the terrorist attacks at London Bridge and Borough Market, in my home city,” Harun Khan, Secretary General of the MCB, said in a statement. “These acts of violence were truly shocking and I condemn them in the strongest terms. “Muslims everywhere are outraged and disgusted at these cowards who once again have destroyed the lives of our fellow Britons. “That this should happen in this month of Ramadan, when many Muslims were praying and fasting only goes to show that these people respect neither life nor faith.” It also comes as 130 imams and religious leaders have refused to offer Islam’s traditional funeral prayer to the perpetrators of the London Bridge and Borough Market attack, despite it usually being performed for all people, regardless of their actions. The MCB justified its decision on the basis that such “indefensible actions” are “completely at odds with the lofty teachings of Islam.”

Source: https://www.rt.com/uk/391107-archbis...ampaign=chrome
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czgibson
06-06-2017, 03:59 PM
Greetings,

The Archbishop is clearly right. Recognising the problem is a first step towards overcoming it. Consider the following questions:

Why do ISIS behead people they have rounded up for punishment when they could more easily shoot them?

Why do ISIS throw homosexuals off tall buildings in preference to any other punishment?

Why do ISIS fill their propaganda magazine, Dabiq, with endless quotes from the Qur'an as justification for their actions?

You may say that ISIS are operating according to a perverted and wrong interpretation of Islam, and that's a discussion worth having, but to say that their behaviour has nothing whatever to do with Islam is an example of wilfully ignoring obvious facts. Burying your head in the sand by denying this connection helps nobody.

Peace
Reply

Simple_Person
06-06-2017, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

The Archbishop is clearly right. Recognising the problem is a first step towards overcoming it. Consider the following questions:

Why do ISIS behead people they have rounded up for punishment when they could more easily shoot them?

Why do ISIS throw homosexuals off tall buildings in preference to any other punishment?

Why do ISIS fill their propaganda magazine, Dabiq, with endless quotes from the Qur'an as justification for their actions?

You may say that ISIS are operating according to a perverted and wrong interpretation of Islam, and that's a discussion worth having, but to say that their behaviour has nothing whatever to do with Islam is an example of wilfully ignoring obvious facts. Burying your head in the sand by denying this connection helps nobody.

Peace
If we follow YOUR logic, then tomorrow so to say i will start drinking alcohol, i will start talking like a English guy, be a BIG UK patriot and go kill somebody in France. I will say my country was always at war with the French and this is revenge for many of my brothers who had died back then. With that start shouting this is for the "Queen of England".

What will UK say? Will they take responsibility? I am 100% sure they will distance themselves from me and say we have NOTHING to do with him and we are not like that. So look at the perspective.

You yourself have been a member on this forum since 2005 and that you STILL have not understood even the SLIGHTEST meaning of what Islam is all about, says enough about you. Very shallow minded, however knowledge and understanding comes from the Creator. The problem is your heart but yeah still it is like i am talking to a wall.

Go ponder a bit sir and ask yourself how come this Muslim says something like that. Maybe i am wrong and based on what may i be wrong? Maybe he knows and understands something that i don't..maybe i can learn something from him. Learning something from somebody else isn't losing your honor you know. Rather the person who pursues the path of learning is rather a wise person.

Peace.
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AbdurRahman.
06-06-2017, 06:29 PM
Archbishop of canterbury is a terrorist!!!!


he never condemns christian terrorism so this means he condones it!

these hypocryts have no right to tell us what to do!
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Simple_Person
06-06-2017, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
Archbishop of canterbury is a terrorist!!!!


he never condemns christian terrorism so this means he condones it!

these hypocryts have no right to tell us what to do!
These hypocrites do even MORE damage by destroying Christianity also from within. Sadly many Christian brothers and sisters haven't done anything about such evil people. Wolf in sheep clothing.
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AbdurRahman.
06-06-2017, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
These hypocrites do even MORE damage by destroying Christianity also from within. Sadly many Christian brothers and sisters haven't done anything about such evil people. Wolf in sheep clothing.
thats right brother; these christians have been murdering millions all across the middle east for last 15 years and when did we ever see the archbishop of cantebury come on tv to condemn it??? and they keep on telling us to condemn our lot! :rollseyes
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Simple_Person
06-06-2017, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
thats right brother; these christians have been murdering millions all across the middle east for last 15 years and when did we ever see the archbishop of cantebury come on tv to condemn it??? and they keep on telling us to condemn our lot! :rollseyes
Well i wouldn't call them Christians, just i wouldn't call people like ISIS Muslims. Both are murderers and both will deserve what they have worked for in the next life.

"And the record [of deeds] will be placed [open], and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present [before them]. And your Lord does injustice to no one." Qur'an 18:49

Whenever i think about such ayaat..suddenly all the killing that is happening and we cannot do much except speak out against it my heart becomes more at ease. As that Day..none of those criminals will get a free ticket except if they embrace Islam and ask for Allah's forgiveness. However that is NOT an easy thing to do. When somebody has tasted wealth and power..one tends to become blind. But still Allah knows best what their destiny will be only knowing if they die in that state there is no where to run for them i am more content already.
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AbdurRahman.
06-06-2017, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Well i wouldn't call them Christians, just i wouldn't call people like ISIS Muslims. Both are murderers and both will deserve what they have worked for in the next life.

"And the record [of deeds] will be placed [open], and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present [before them]. And your Lord does injustice to no one." Qur'an 18:49

Whenever i think about such ayaat..suddenly all the killing that is happening and we cannot do much except speak out against it my heart becomes more at ease. As that Day..none of those criminals will get a free ticket except if they embrace Islam and ask for Allah's forgiveness. However that is NOT an easy thing to do. When somebody has tasted wealth and power..one tends to become blind. But still Allah knows best what their destiny will be only knowing if they die in that state there is no where to run for them i am more content already.
ooh we musnt do takfir on the muslim extremists brother as if we get a takfir wrong we ourselves turn kaafir :o; they are deviants but not kuffar as non-muslim is only one who deliberately rejects the true faith
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Simple_Person
06-06-2017, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
ooh we musnt do takfir on the muslim extremists brother as if we get a takfir wrong we ourselves turn kaafir :o; they are deviants but not kuffar as non-muslim is only one who deliberately rejects the true faith
I do that ONLY based on certain ahadith. The ahadith about the khawarij. Based on that i have drawn that conclusion that is also the ONLY takfir i have done based on that.
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AbdurRahman.
06-06-2017, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
I do that ONLY based on certain ahadith. The ahadith about the khawarij. Based on that i have drawn that conclusion that is also the ONLY takfir i have done based on that.
the sahaba [ra] didn't do takfir on khawarij although the khawarij were far worse; they used to kill all muslims who didn't believe the same as them; they literally used to come to muslim towns and slaughter ...

the extremists of today have traits of khawarij but if takfir wasn't done on the worst of khawarij by the most knowledgeable people how can we do takfir confidently on them?
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Simple_Person
06-06-2017, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
the sahaba [ra] didn't do takfir on khawarij although the khawarij were far worse; they used to kill all muslims who didn't believe the same as them; they literally used to come to muslim towns and slaughter ...

the extremists of today have traits of khawarij but if takfir wasn't done on the worst of khawarij by the most knowledgeable people how can we do takfir confidently on them?
Well i can agree with you on that (thanks for giving good argument), but what is left is that i agree with killing them is permissible so to say.
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Serinity
06-06-2017, 07:41 PM
:salam:

Build Islamic schools that is built on Islamic values and morals. Islam condemns terrorism. No matter how much we say that, although true, there will always be terrorism.

Why should we apologize for what happens? We all know it is wrong.


Allahu alam.
Reply

Scimitar
06-06-2017, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,
Wassup Gibzon... wasgud

Originally Posted by czgibson
The Archbishop is clearly right. Recognising the problem is a first step towards overcoming it. Consider the following questions:

Why do ISIS behead people they have rounded up for punishment when they could more easily shoot them?

Why do ISIS throw homosexuals off tall buildings in preference to any other punishment?

Why do ISIS fill their propaganda magazine, Dabiq, with endless quotes from the Qur'an as justification for their actions?

You may say that ISIS are operating according to a perverted and wrong interpretation of Islam, and that's a discussion worth having, but to say that their behaviour has nothing whatever to do with Islam is an example of wilfully ignoring obvious facts. Burying your head in the sand by denying this connection helps nobody.

Peace
Personally, I believe you are the ignorant one!

Let's discuss you! Yes?

Scimi
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Abz2000
06-06-2017, 08:13 PM
We would also need to -along with ideology - carefully look at all of the things the people of iraq and syria have gone through over the past few decades - and centuries - in order to be able to judge them and those who ally with them.

Wasn't that the type of thinking used to justify the horrors in palestine after the rothschild proxy engineered holocaust?
- despite the fact that the jews were no longer living through the persecution used as a defence for their acts.....acts which had nothing whatsoever to do with the palestinians or jordanians or syrians. Mankind was told: "but they need a state and the palestinians are unwilling to move out of their own homes, hence they can be psychologised with the nazis in europe.........this is in stark contrast to what Muslims have been and are going through despite their untold patience.
Also - if we were to compare the teachings of Islam with that of the bible, and any other secular or non-Muslim government policy, I'm certain that the teachings of Islam would prove to be the most mild in comparison.

I think the British government should take responsibility for the incidents since it is guilty of crimes against humanity on a massive scale globally, while it has attempted to justify it through propaganda against -and vilification of - Muslims with disregard to the fact that so many British Muslims suffer and face humiliation and unjust discrimination along with the people attacked by the british government abroad.

Having been a victim of the propaganda during the second iraq war, I can assure you that you wouldn't feel cozy, comfortable, or patriotic to the queen if you were me and you opened any newspaper or watched any british tv news propaganda piece.
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AbdurRahman.
06-06-2017, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Well i can agree with you on that (thanks for giving good argument), but what is left is that i agree with killing them is permissible so to say.
some scholars have spouted out that they can be killed, but they are more care-free when talking about enemies of the west than they are of enemies of Islam, for example, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf will give all sorts of excuses why an american soldier invading iraq is not guilty, 'they are not fighting Islam', 'they think their fighting terrorism' 'they think their defending their country blah blah [i.e, because they've been brainwashed with falsehood so their Innocent due to their ignorance and misunderstanding ], if they applied the same amount of compassion and benifit of doubt to our extremists too the judgement should be similar, but they're too much under pressure to condemn our lot in the most strongest of terms or else they loose their credibility in the media as 'moderate scholars' so i think western muslim scholars do have a conflict of interest

khawrij of Prophet's [saw] era had no excuse; they had the Messenger of ALlah their clarifying the truth, but nowadays their is a lot of confusion, misteachings and provocation too and it's easy for one to be drawn into extremism

the intellectual giant of the West, Noam Chomsky says that isis is a reactionary force provoked into existence by western aggression
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AbdurRahman.
06-06-2017, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
I do that ONLY based on certain ahadith. The ahadith about the khawarij. Based on that i have drawn that conclusion that is also the ONLY takfir i have done based on that.
thats a bit weird too bro as i recall you do not even do takfir on the ahmadiyah, those who all muslims are united are kuffar without doubt!
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czgibson
06-06-2017, 10:09 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by Simple_Person
If we follow YOUR logic, then tomorrow so to say i will start drinking alcohol, i will start talking like a English guy, be a BIG UK patriot and go kill somebody in France. I will say my country was always at war with the French and this is revenge for many of my brothers who had died back then. With that start shouting this is for the "Queen of England".

What will UK say? Will they take responsibility? I am 100% sure they will distance themselves from me and say we have NOTHING to do with him and we are not like that. So look at the perspective.
If you as an individual did that, obviously people would think you were crazy. But imagine if hundreds of young men did the same over a period of many years. Then the UK would indeed have a problem that it could no longer deny.

You yourself have been a member on this forum since 2005 and that you STILL have not understood even the SLIGHTEST meaning of what Islam is all about, says enough about you. Very shallow minded, however knowledge and understanding comes from the Creator. The problem is your heart but yeah still it is like i am talking to a wall.
While you have been a member of this forum for, let's see, three months or so. In fact I think this is the first time I remember conversing with you. Pleased to meet you. :)

During the years I've been on the forum I've been fortunate enough to learn a great deal about Islam from the many people I've spoken to here. You have obviously read all those conversations and formed a very clear picture of the state of my knowledge on the subject.

Go ponder a bit sir and ask yourself how come this Muslim says something like that. Maybe i am wrong and based on what may i be wrong? Maybe he knows and understands something that i don't..maybe i can learn something from him. Learning something from somebody else isn't losing your honor you know. Rather the person who pursues the path of learning is rather a wise person.
Thank you for lecturing me on the importance of learning. (I'm a teacher. :shade: )

Maybe you would like to answer the three questions in my previous post. Have you at least considered them?

Peace.
I couldn't agree more.
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Eric H
06-06-2017, 10:27 PM
Greetings and peace be with you czgibson;

The Archbishop is clearly right. Recognising the problem is a first step towards overcoming it.
Just my own thoughts, but I would have been happier if the Archbishop had tried to build greater interfaith relations. This is a time for people of peace to come together.

Why do ISIS behead people they have rounded up for punishment when they could more easily shoot them?

Why do ISIS throw homosexuals off tall buildings in preference to any other punishment?
All murders are savage and wrong.

Why do ISIS fill their propaganda magazine, Dabiq, with endless quotes from the Qur'an as justification for their actions?
If you isolate passages from the Qur'an and take them out of context, you can pretty much justify anything you want to do. But you would have to overlook passages that say, 'if you kill one person, it is as if you have killed the whole of mankind, and if you save one person, it is as if you have saved the whole of mankind.

You may say that ISIS are operating according to a perverted and wrong interpretation of Islam,
When you look at the 99 names of Allah, I would say that ISIS is perverting Islam.

but to say that their behaviour has nothing whatever to do with Islam is an example of wilfully ignoring obvious facts. Burying your head in the sand by denying this connection helps nobody.
Fortunately, the brothers and sisters on this forum do not follow Islam in the same way as ISIS. So I would just ask the question, who is truthfully striving to follow Islam, the people on this forum or ISIS?

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God.

Eric
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Serinity
06-06-2017, 10:33 PM
:salam:

Allah guides many by the Qur'aan, and misguides many, and He :swt: does not misguide except the defiantly disobedient.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
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Simple_Person
06-07-2017, 06:29 AM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
some scholars have spouted out that they can be killed, but they are more care-free when talking about enemies of the west than they are of enemies of Islam, for example, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf will give all sorts of excuses why an american soldier invading iraq is not guilty, 'they are not fighting Islam', 'they think their fighting terrorism' 'they think their defending their country blah blah [i.e, because they've been brainwashed with falsehood so their Innocent due to their ignorance and misunderstanding ], if they applied the same amount of compassion and benifit of doubt to our extremists too the judgement should be similar, but they're too much under pressure to condemn our lot in the most strongest of terms or else they loose their credibility in the media as 'moderate scholars' so i think western muslim scholars do have a conflict of interest

khawrij of Prophet's [saw] era had no excuse; they had the Messenger of ALlah their clarifying the truth, but nowadays their is a lot of confusion, misteachings and provocation too and it's easy for one to be drawn into extremism

the intellectual giant of the West, Noam Chomsky says that isis is a reactionary force provoked into existence by western aggression
Some US soldiers have seen the horrors and have started speaking out against US government. I COULD even excuse many back in 2003 and invading of Iraq as there wasn't enough ways to find out the truth. However now we are living in 2017. You me and almost anybody in the he west that joins the army of those terrorist governments have no excuse. You cannot say I didn't know.

There are people that STILL believe 9/11 was done by some guys in some caves in Afghanistan. While even professors have concluded and spoken out that what was going on with that he towers couldn''t happen because of just some planes. The problem rather is ..some people just don't want to think and question.

That is why I just recently concluded that we are living in such bizarre times and there are some people among us that see so many corrupt things (minor signs)..why is the fitrah not kicking in and questioning things? These people are just lost and will not question or stand up against anything. There are seriously people who fall of their bike or something happens with them and other people just walk by or just stand still and are looking as if something to entertain them selves. People are fighting nobody is trying to stop the fight..people have an accident nobody is trying to help or call an ambulance.

So the people right now that join those armies right now have no excuse to say they were ignorant about it. I already have used this example but look at that criminal in the movie "American Sniper".

Being ignorant in these times is no longer a "accident" rather a choice. Just look at wat Allah has given humanity to use (internet). No longer be confused of what is going on as I can read other people's opinions and perspectives. I can think for myself and ask those people for proof and they can give me their proof. All while they might live on the other side of the globe.
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Simple_Person
06-07-2017, 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
thats a bit weird too bro as i recall you do not even do takfir on the ahmadiyah, those who all muslims are united are kuffar without doubt!
Like I said I did takfir because of the using of those ahadith. However you gave good argument to BETTER refrain from it.
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Simple_Person
06-07-2017, 07:17 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

If you as an individual did that, obviously people would think you were crazy. But imagine if hundreds of young men did the same over a period of many years. Then the UK would indeed have a problem that it could no longer deny.
Look at how you "twist" things. Just because some sect in UK stands up and starts doing that, still UK is not at fault. Indeed UK has to start hunting those kind of people, but that doesn't mean it is because of UK such people exist you know. That is why i said you have been member of this forum for such a long time, but still you fail to understand even the most basic thing of Islam and what Islam is about. In the time of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) the first one with such mentality emerged and ali (ra) the cousin of the prophet said hearing for the prophet that the LAST one with such mentality will be joining the anti-christ. In other words..these people will exist through out the history. As we even witness them today. I've had even the opportunity to chat with two of them online. And you cannot reason with them. You give them strong hadith..they still reject it..you give them Qur'an verses that don't even need to be interpreted as it is clear as it can be yet they do not agree with you.

I asked one what if i kill your son what does Islamic law say? He replied..then i can kill your son. (eye for an eye, tooth for an tooth). i said dude..if i kill your son (killing of an innocent soul) i am responsible, what has my son to do with my crime? because if you kill my son then you also have killed a innocent soul. He said ..NO...i have studied shari'a law and i know what the ruling is. With such people one cannot reason. I mean i can say something and you can say well you are wrong based on this and this and this..i can look at the proof you give me and see that indeed i am wrong and thank you for correcting me. However if you give me all the proof there is an still i keep doing evil. There is only 1 way left..that is to kill me.

I can even grab the law of the country and twist some things and say you should be killed. However still the countries law and way of life isn't responsible. As such evil and crazy people will always keep on existing. What do Muslims say about such people..go kill them but in NO way do we say they are walking the path of Islam and what Islam says you should walk upon.

Originally Posted by czgibson
While you have been a member of this forum for, let's see, three months or so. In fact I think this is the first time I remember conversing with you. Pleased to meet you. :)

During the years I've been on the forum I've been fortunate enough to learn a great deal about Islam from the many people I've spoken to here. You have obviously read all those conversations and formed a very clear picture of the state of my knowledge on the subject.
As i already said even IF somebody uses such quotes and such practices doesn't make them to follow certain way of life. If i would drink beer, talk like a English guy, behave like one, but do certain things doesn't make me one of them. The Uk government indeed has to hunt me and people like me down and kill them or put them in jail. Because that is defaming certain kind of people. The Muslim world however is run by dictators that only pursue their own political interests as we have seen that ISIS has been supported by all those countries. However again, nothing to do with Islam and what Islam stands for. If you read even certain hadith Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) DOES NOT say certain groups will emerge from MY Ummah, however he says certain groups will rise that speak the same language have certain attributes..their names like this and that.. In other words he also does not acknowledge they practice Islam. So you should realize that and not look at it so black and white.

Another example, smiling towards other people despite their religion is endorsed to do and is a good deed. However if you as a atheist also starts doing that..that doesn't mean you suddenly have become a Muslim. In this day and age many people WEAR Arabic clothes..have appearance of Muslims (beard for example), have names like other Muslims..but have very little to do with Islam. A Muslim is noticed by his actions not by his appearance. If you would see me on the street..you would see i am from the Middle East but i have not shaved my mustache or have a beard that has a certain length or wear those long Arabic dresses. If you converse with me you would notice i am not harsh or anything in that sense. I joke, i laugh, i interact. I can have all kind of conversations.

Originally Posted by czgibson
Thank you for lecturing me on the importance of learning. (I'm a teacher. :shade: )
No you are not a teacher, a teacher knows something, you are still a student, just like me. What you know you MAY think is a lot but it is still tip of the iceberg. By profession you teach certain curriculum to your students but you still could even learn from your own students. Based on religion you are still a student and has a lot to learn. Do not get offended, because i said you have to learn a lot more. Gaining knowledge never ends.

Originally Posted by czgibson
Maybe you would like to answer the three questions in my previous post. Have you at least considered them?
I have answered them here above. You as a teacher so far i noticed you thinking within the box. In other words very black and white and how society has thought you. Life and things in general aren't so black and white as how you depict them. Before replying to this, ponder a bit more what i am talking about by saying you think very black and white. I am not trying to "talk something good" absolutely not. I acknowledge the problem and i also gave the solution to this problem. Education is usually the key but not everybody is open to education. Which leaves only 1 solution and that is wipe them out. Because such people with such mentality not only harm themselves, but also the people that follow that religion and also people of other faiths as well.
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muslim brother
06-07-2017, 12:59 PM
terminology...

responsibility..
  • the state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone.
    "women bear children and take responsibility for childcare"
    synonyms: authority, control, power, leadership, management, influence; duty
    "we train those staff who show an aptitude for managerial responsibility"






  • 2.
    the state or fact of being accountable or to blame for something.
    "the group has claimed responsibility for a string of murders"
    synonyms: blame, fault, guilt, culpability, blameworthiness, liability"the organization denied responsibility for the bomb attack at the airport"









extremism..the holding of extreme political or religious views; fanaticism.
"the dangers of religious extremism"



question...? how do i/we control how someone else thinks
are we to blame?..absolutely not
are we responsible..no according to definition 2


should we be involved in cve...depends on your know how and position in society.


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sister herb
06-07-2017, 01:28 PM
This is interesting idea (from the first post - sorry, lazy to quote):

"From an outside perspective, one of the issues about dealing with Islam is that there is not much of a structure. There isn’t a pope or a bishop that you can go to and say these are the leaders."

Now, when the next time someone who is from Christian background makes some crime or terrorist act, should we go to meet a pope or bishop and require him to be held accountable about those acts? Would he carry his responsibility or woud he just say "not my business - I didn´t order him/them to do that act"?

Why then Muslim leaders, whose haven´t preached extremism, should be in responsible because someone acts against their teachings?
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AbdurRahman.
06-07-2017, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Some US soldiers have seen the horrors and have started speaking out against US government. I COULD even excuse many back in 2003 and invading of Iraq as there wasn't enough ways to find out the truth. However now we are living in 2017. You me and almost anybody in the he west that joins the army of those terrorist governments have no excuse. You cannot say I didn't know.

There are people that STILL believe 9/11 was done by some guys in some caves in Afghanistan. While even professors have concluded and spoken out that what was going on with that he towers couldn''t happen because of just some planes. The problem rather is ..some people just don't want to think and question.

That is why I just recently concluded that we are living in such bizarre times and there are some people among us that see so many corrupt things (minor signs)..why is the fitrah not kicking in and questioning things? These people are just lost and will not question or stand up against anything. There are seriously people who fall of their bike or something happens with them and other people just walk by or just stand still and are looking as if something to entertain them selves. People are fighting nobody is trying to stop the fight..people have an accident nobody is trying to help or call an ambulance.

So the people right now that join those armies right now have no excuse to say they were ignorant about it. I already have used this example but look at that criminal in the movie "American Sniper".

Being ignorant in these times is no longer a "accident" rather a choice. Just look at wat Allah has given humanity to use (internet). No longer be confused of what is going on as I can read other people's opinions and perspectives. I can think for myself and ask those people for proof and they can give me their proof. All while they might live on the other side of the globe.
if being ignorant is no choice you have to say that all non-muslims will burn in hell for all eternity after they die and they do not have the excuse of 'i didn't know' but i bet you wouldn't say that :D
Reply

Simple_Person
06-07-2017, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
if being ignorant is no choice you have to say that all non-muslims will burn in hell for all eternity after they die and they do not have the excuse of 'i didn't know' but i bet you wouldn't say that :D
No because i do not know exactly what they harbor in their hearts. However now a days MANY people..they just DO NOT CARE to look up things. I am NOT kidding you. I myself have a IT-background and when somebody asks my help and you want to teach them how to do something on their own for in the future..as easy as it is ..few mouse clicks..they just do NOT care.

I mean they will often have to deal with that problem again in the future, but just want somebody else to fix it for them each time. Then i have tried to look from another perspective of MAYBE they are too busy ..that also is not true as they have time to read anything and everything..and do anything and everything..but just do not care for that thing you try to teach them. A acquaintance of mine i gave a copy of the Qur'an like i think back in 2014. We are now in 2017. That acquaintance of mine has time for reading other books..doing other things..but reading the Qur'an? You see they find all kind of excuses but in reality what they want to tell you is..I DO NOT CARE..JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!!. They are just content with how their life is and what they do.

There are also other people that have a opinion. They come to you and say all kind of things that are incorrect..like FGM, honor killings, no free opinion/speech etc...however when you give them proof that says exactly the opposite to it, they just dishonestly want to brand you as a liar. When you say have you read the Qur'an..they say yeah, well part of it. Then you suggest to them to go and read the whole Qur'an. However they just DO NOT CARE!!.

So me saying "being ignorant is a choice in these days"..i indeed stick to that. Because not caring is the root cause of it which staying ignorant is the symptom of that root cause. The fitrah already is argument enough against you, me and every other person on earth, however Allah's mercy to still give us more ayaat (signs) and things that make us ponder.

So those guys that "choose" to stay ignorant will have HUGE argument against them on the Day of Judgement. You have to know that on the Day of Judgement the loop holes are closed you know. Everything you and i do can be used against us.

Things these days have been made SOOOO EASY when it comes to gaining knowledge. My own family (lives in the Middle East)..they just DO NOT CARE how certain things work..and watching tv to them is more important. They also have internet. We think "ignorant" as something of not being able to find out the truth. How? In the sense of not having the means to finding the truth. As in the past people had to go great distances to find the truth or just nobody being there to tell them the truth. I believe on the Day of Judgement such people will have this argument as they saying there was no Messenger to convey the message of Islam to them. In other words..i had no means to find out the right path.

However me..you.. even Christians you see go to houses to tell about God..yet many people just say.."stay away i do not want to hear it".

This reminds me of the story of Prophet Nuh (as).

"And indeed, every time I invited them that You may forgive them, they put their fingers in their ears, covered themselves with their garments, persisted, and were arrogant with [great] arrogance." Qur'an 71:7
"Then I invited them publicly." Qur'an 71:8
"Then I announced to them and [also] confided to them secretly" Qur'an 71:9

How come Allah used EXACT those bold-made words in the Qur'an? "They put their fingers in their ears"?? Just because Allah felt like it? Or has it certain wisdom or meaning for us to understand? I say it has certain meaning/wisdom behind it. So i say even if there is something or someone that is there to give you the message of Islam, but you turning away not wanting to listen..one has no argument. Indeed the latter ayaat show that we need to be persistent until we die or they die. However when they die and still did "not care"..on the Day of Judgement we will be testifying against them.

Also when looking at the definition of "arrogance"

"unpleasantly proud and behaving as if you are more important than, or know more than, other people"

Source used: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...glish/arrogant

When somebody does not care what you have to say, this means what you have to say is not important for them to listen to and what they know is more important than what you have to say.
Reply

AbdurRahman.
06-07-2017, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
No because i do not know exactly what they harbor in their hearts. However now a days MANY people..they just DO NOT CARE to look up things. I am NOT kidding you. I myself have a IT-background and when somebody asks my help and you want to teach them how to do something on their own for in the future..as easy as it is ..few mouse clicks..they just do NOT care.

I mean they will often have to deal with that problem again in the future, but just want somebody else to fix it for them each time. Then i have tried to look from another perspective of MAYBE they are too busy ..that also is not true as they have time to read anything and everything..and do anything and everything..but just do not care for that thing you try to teach them. A acquaintance of mine i gave a copy of the Qur'an like i think back in 2014. We are now in 2017. That acquaintance of mine has time for reading other books..doing other things..but reading the Qur'an? You see they find all kind of excuses but in reality what they want to tell you is..I DO NOT CARE..JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!!. They are just content with how their life is and what they do.

There are also other people that have a opinion. They come to you and say all kind of things that are incorrect..like FGM, honor killings, no free opinion/speech etc...however when you give them proof that says exactly the opposite to it, they just dishonestly want to brand you as a liar. When you say have you read the Qur'an..they say yeah, well part of it. Then you suggest to them to go and read the whole Qur'an. However they just DO NOT CARE!!.

So me saying "being ignorant is no choice"..i indeed stick to that. Because not caring is the root cause of it which staying ignorant is the symptom of that root cause. The fitrah already is argument enough against you, me and every other person on earth, however Allah's mercy to still give us more ayaat and things that make us ponder.

So those guys that "choose" to stay ignorant will have HUGE argument against them on the Day of Judgement. You have to know that on the Day of Judgement the loop holes are closed you know. Everything you and i do can be used against us.

Things these days have been made SOOOO EASY when it comes to gaining knowledge. My own family (lives in the Middle East)..they just DO NOT CARE how certain things work..and watching tv to them is more important. They also have internet. We think "ignorant" as something of not being able to find out the truth. How? In the sense of not having the means to finding the truth. As in the past people had to go great distances to find the truth or just nobody being there to tell them the truth. I believe on the Day of Judgement such people will have this argument as they saying there was no Messenger to convey the message of Islam to them. In other words..i had no means to find out the right path.

However me..you.. even Christians you see go to houses to tell about God..yet many people just say.."stay away i do not want to hear it".

This reminds me of the story of Prophet Nuh (as).

"And indeed, every time I invited them that You may forgive them, they put their fingers in their ears, covered themselves with their garments, persisted, and were arrogant with [great] arrogance." Qur'an 71:7
"Then I invited them publicly." Qur'an 71:8
"Then I announced to them and [also] confided to them secretly" Qur'an 71:9

How come Allah used EXACT those bold-made words in the Qur'an? "They put their fingers in their ears"?? Just because Allah felt like it? Or has it certain wisdom or meaning for us to understand? I say it has certain meaning/wisdom behind it. So i say even if there is something or someone that is there to give you the message of Islam, but you turning away not wanting to listen..one has no argument. Indeed the latter ayaat show that we need to be persistent until we die or they die. However when they die and still did "not care"..on the Day of Judgement we will be testifying against them.
you dont know what non-muslims harbour in their hearts but you do know what all muslim do? :rollseyes

and not only the kuffar thing but with muslims too; which ever we believe to be the right sect, we have to presume the rest of the muslims are evil and will go to hell and cannot use the 'ignorance' rule to give them benifit of doubt so really 'ignorance' is the only caveat we have to assume the best of them; and thats a sunnah too, to always assume the best of Muslims rather than the worst
Reply

Simple_Person
06-07-2017, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
you dont know what non-muslims harbour in their hearts but you do know what all muslim do? :rollseyes

and not only the kuffar thing but with muslims too; which ever we believe to be the right sect, we have to presume the rest of the muslims are evil and will go to hell and cannot use the 'ignorance' rule to give them benifit of doubt so really 'ignorance' is the only caveat we have to assume the best of them; and thats a sunnah too, to always assume the best of Muslims rather than the worst
I can agree to you with "assume the best of them" to me is to people who are ignorant. For example. There are people who are Muslim but very nationalistic and they seriously are NOT aware of nationalism being prohibited. So when you educate them or TRY to educate them..they arrogantly turn away from you and still hold to that view. You give them Qur'an..you give them sahih ahadith..yet all the same. Me assuming the best for these types of people, well everything has limits. Not being educated on something is one thing, but KNOWING IT but still sticking to it..shows arrogance.

Saying i do not know what they harbor in their hearts is saying exactly who will end up in hell fire and who not. Somebody for example might be looking arrogant, but just have some personal problems at the moment, just leave them.

There are Ahmadiyya that like somebody in that topic back then said, do things because their parents say..however they not believing such things. Many Muslims now a days have also fallen in the same category that Allah has warned us about.

Often we read things like "we do what our forefathers had done"..However just because your forefathers had done that, doesn't mean they were right. For example, forcing a girl to marry some guy. Just because your parents and grandparents did, doesn't mean it is oke and according to Islamic rulings. That is for example also a reason why i back then left Islam as i never really knew or even understand what Islam was truly about.

So we often also forget things within context. These days i would be stabbed in the back if i gave certain people who call themselves Muslims but follow nationalism this "assuming the best". As this has done in the past also.

Back in Medina, people were united and strived the same goal. However these days, a certain group strives a haram goal and one must assume the best for such people even when they are knowledgeable about it.
Reply

tolpuddle
06-07-2017, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
Archbishop of canterbury is a terrorist!!!!


he never condemns christian terrorism so this means he condones it!

these hypocryts have no right to tell us what to do!
I can't think of any Christian terrorism - that is terrorism committed in the name of Christianity - in the world today.

The invasion of Iraq ? - by hypocrites calling themselves Christians (and for decidedly non-Christian reasons !).
Reply

tolpuddle
06-07-2017, 04:41 PM
I think what Justin Welby is saying, is that leading Muslim imams should denounce ISIS's interpretation of Islam.
Reply

Simple_Person
06-07-2017, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by tolpuddle
I think what Justin Welby is saying, is that leading Muslim imams should denounce ISIS's interpretation of Islam.
As if any of those leading Muslim imams have said that their (ISIS) interpretation is part of Islam =_=!. How many of us even are shouting so to say that it is NOT part of Islam what they are doing, yet media does not gain views if people do good things or denounce such things being part of Islam. How many media are coming on this forum and quoting the Muslims saying the things ISIS is doing is NOT part of Islam?

However you sound also a bit hypocritical by saying

"The invasion of Iraq ? - by hypocrites calling themselves Christians (and for decidedly non-Christian reasons !)."

Yet not doing the same with Islam. These people that kill innocent people are not doing for Islamic reasons, but out of hatred. Please do not have double standards.
Reply

AbdurRahman.
06-07-2017, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by tolpuddle
I can't think of any Christian terrorism - that is terrorism committed in the name of Christianity - in the world today.

The invasion of Iraq ? - by hypocrites calling themselves Christians (and for decidedly non-Christian reasons !).
it's the same crusades going on; before the protestant reformation they called it, crusade, now they're pulling a fast one, they are hiding behind, 'seperation of state and religion'!
Reply

AbdurRahman.
06-07-2017, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
I can agree to you with "assume the best of them" to me is to people who are ignorant. For example. There are people who are Muslim but very nationalistic and they seriously are NOT aware of nationalism being prohibited. So when you educate them or TRY to educate them..they arrogantly turn away from you and still hold to that view. You give them Qur'an..you give them sahih ahadith..yet all the same. Me assuming the best for these types of people, well everything has limits. Not being educated on something is one thing, but KNOWING IT but still sticking to it..shows arrogance.

Saying i do not know what they harbor in their hearts is saying exactly who will end up in hell fire and who not. Somebody for example might be looking arrogant, but just have some personal problems at the moment, just leave them.

There are Ahmadiyya that like somebody in that topic back then said, do things because their parents say..however they not believing such things. Many Muslims now a days have also fallen in the same category that Allah has warned us about.

Often we read things like "we do what our forefathers had done"..However just because your forefathers had done that, doesn't mean they were right. For example, forcing a girl to marry some guy. Just because your parents and grandparents did, doesn't mean it is oke and according to Islamic rulings. That is for example also a reason why i back then left Islam as i never really knew or even understand what Islam was truly about.

So we often also forget things within context. These days i would be stabbed in the back if i gave certain people who call themselves Muslims but follow nationalism this "assuming the best". As this has done in the past also.

Back in Medina, people were united and strived the same goal. However these days, a certain group strives a haram goal and one must assume the best for such people even when they are knowledgeable about it.
It's not a matter of knowing the evidences a 'moderate' muslim uses to argue against them but evidences/arguments must win over their counter evidences/arguments etc; i think a comparison can be drawn with when a non-muslim is guilty of rejecting islam as Allah's mercy is same for all; not just non-muslims; now i'm sure you heard the opinion that a non-muslim is guilty of rejecting islam only when he knows it is the truth?, i.e, the message has become compelling to him but yet he rejects it

and i'm sure you know that simply giving a non-muslim 'proofs' such as Quranic verses, miracles, etc is not enough in these confusing times; for many one has to take ages just proving there is a God to them first as they've been very sophisticatedly deceived with the evolution theory; a muslim scholar once told of this good hearted non-muslim man who attended his classes for a whole 8 months; he had many questions that needed clarifying and finally after 8 months he was convinced of the truth of islam

now lets say a mainstream muslim is astray and a salafi is righlty guided; have you seen what happens when they 'debate'?; a salafi will give evidences but the mainstream will have counter evidences and arguments of his own; it takes time for a person to gradually be overwhelmed with the right evidences and arguments and many times the rightly guided muslims are not able to present this evidence properly!; like a shaykh said once, it is the light of faith that gives the dawah and not the person himself and this light is dwindling in most of us!

So end of day it all comes down to only Allah knowing the heart ... And it should be left at that and our duty is to think the best of a muslim apart from deviant scholars maybe as they should know better and once a deviant dies, we hope for the best
Reply

Simple_Person
06-08-2017, 06:53 AM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
It's not a matter of knowing the evidences a 'moderate' muslim uses to argue against them but evidences/arguments must win over their counter evidences/arguments etc; i think a comparison can be drawn with when a non-muslim is guilty of rejecting islam as Allah's mercy is same for all; not just non-muslims; now i'm sure you heard the opinion that a non-muslim is guilty of rejecting islam only when he knows it is the truth?, i.e, the message has become compelling to him but yet he rejects it

and i'm sure you know that simply giving a non-muslim 'proofs' such as Quranic verses, miracles, etc is not enough in these confusing times; for many one has to take ages just proving there is a God to them first as they've been very sophisticatedly deceived with the evolution theory; a muslim scholar once told of this good hearted non-muslim man who attended his classes for a whole 8 months; he had many questions that needed clarifying and finally after 8 months he was convinced of the truth of islam

now lets say a mainstream muslim is astray and a salafi is righlty guided; have you seen what happens when they 'debate'?; a salafi will give evidences but the mainstream will have counter evidences and arguments of his own; it takes time for a person to gradually be overwhelmed with the right evidences and arguments and many times the rightly guided muslims are not able to present this evidence properly!; like a shaykh said once, it is the light of faith that gives the dawah and not the person himself and this light is dwindling in most of us!

So end of day it all comes down to only Allah knowing the heart ... And it should be left at that and our duty is to think the best of a muslim apart from deviant scholars maybe as they should know better and once a deviant dies, we hope for the best
I agree with you that it is all about evidence, but what my argument is, is when the other side has no evidence against your evidence or thinks for a second and says well you got a point and let me think about it..then it shows dishonesty. They just stick to what they believe in. I also agree with you it takes time as with the story of Nuh(as) we can see that he was persistent and did whatever was in his power. Also yes, being a kafir is one who rejects the message while knowing it or when he takes up arms to physically fight you even though he might not know the message.

In these times of confusion people yes they need time and evidence, however what we also can see is A LOT OF ARROGANCE. So it is not simply just because of confusion, rather there is much of arrogance with people. Majority of the people live in their own little world and it is all about ..me..me..me. Allah conflicted a acquaintance of mine with cancer (although a rare one but curable) however at that time that he did not know it was curable i later on asked him have you back then ever thought about death and God etc. etc. he replied not really. He said all he learned from it was the little things in life becoming more important. A neighbor of his a few years ago was inflicted with cancer and alhamdulillah cured and i ask had a brief talk with him he also replied the same as looking at the small things in life that have become more important.

I mean in these times it is HARD to get through to somebody because people simply have put religion in the closet or better said they have thrown it in the bin. Media has programmed them to such a extend that they do not care to be "different" from others. A friend of mine once told me that he spoke to a person and asked that person "If you knew something is wrong would you speak against it?". That person replied to his question "no, i would not i do not want to be different as it takes to much energy to go against people..i would just do the same despite knowing it is wrong".

We have all kind of things Allah programmed in to us like when seeing something evil, we reject it. When seeing somebody needs help..we automatically want to go and help. When we see something we become curious about it. For example, Islam is depicted as the origin of evil and internet is at our finger tips. The curiosity in us for sure wants to know what is going on. Yet many people just do NOT care. Off course on the Day of Judgement many people we have come in contact with in this life will testify against us if we have not conveyed the message of Islam persistently or even shown the Muslim character. However just like Nuh(as) if we have done that but they just did NOT CARE..we will be testifying against them. So even not knowing doesn't mean you are exempted from it under the category of "ignorant".

We tend to categorize people who were ignorant all together under the same label, while the category has certain sub-labels as ignorant but not wanting or caring to know or ignorant but had no means to find out the truth. In the story of the people of Nuh(as) it clearly shows despite Nuh(as) trying and trying and trying..those people just do not want to listen or hear him talk. You get what i am trying to tell you?

Do however know that we do not know which people (who are ignorant) belong to which category. So for us just try to convey the message continuously until we end up in our grave.
Reply

tolpuddle
06-08-2017, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
thats right brother; these christians have been murdering millions all across the middle east for last 15 years and when did we ever see the archbishop of cantebury come on tv to condemn it??? and they keep on telling us to condemn our lot! :rollseyes
Most Western people aren't Christians. Their governments are even less Christian.

The motives for Western military involvement in the Middle East are entirely political - one could almost say, oil-related.

Even in USA, most church leaders advised Dubya Bush NOT to invade Iraq.
Reply

Simple_Person
06-08-2017, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by tolpuddle
Most Western people aren't Christians. Their governments are even less Christian.

The motives for Western military involvement in the Middle East are entirely political - one could almost say, oil-related.

Even in USA, most church leaders advised Dubya Bush NOT to invade Iraq.
Can you see that being ONLY peaceful is contradictory to human nature? So turning the other cheek does not work for such people in power. Such people only benefit from that "turn the other cheek" narrative. Some real action needs to be taken and influence, but US governments is too much influenced by AIPAC.
Reply

tolpuddle
06-08-2017, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
it's the same crusades going on; before the protestant reformation they called it, crusade, now they're pulling a fast one, they are hiding behind, 'seperation of state and religion'!
The Crusades were (partly) motivated by religious faith; though politics, culture-clash, greed for land and vengefulness (for past Muslim attacks on Europe) were also powerful motives for many of the Crusaders.

I can't see how anyone can regard modern-day Western involvements in the Middle East as being even slightly motivated by religious faith; the West (especially the people running it) has been very secular (sometimes aggressively so) since about 1700 CE.

A better label to place upon modern Westerners invading the Middle East, is "Byzantines" - i.e. hard-headed secular thugs in the Roman-Byzantine tradition.

All European states - and indeed the USA - are heirs (indeed, successor-states) of the Roman Empire; the fourth and last of the empires of world history (as mentioned in the Jewish scriptures by the prophet Daniel).

Thus Rome still exists - but with the USA and European nations now fading, Rome is wending to its close; thus ushering in "The Last Days" of the world (or at least, the world as we know it).
Reply

Eric H
06-08-2017, 10:55 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Simple_Person;

You might be interested to read about our Bishop Philip Egan, the Catholic Bishop of Portsmouth, and his recent visit to Abu Bakr Mosque, Southampton.

MESSAGE TO MEMBERS OF THE ABU BAKR MOSQUE
Dear Friends, I thank you for the huge joy and privilege of visiting your
beautiful Abu Bakr mosque today. I am Bishop Philip Egan, the Catholic
Bishop of Portsmouth. Originally I come from Manchester and so I do ask
your prayers for the people of that city, after the terrible bombing last
week. But I live in Portsmouth and our Diocese is a big one. It has
235,000 Catholics. It covers the south coast along to Bournemouth and
stretches north to Reading and Oxford. So on behalf of all Catholic
Christians in this region, I offer you today our sincerest greetings and
prayers for a Happy Ramadan. Ramadan Mubarak!
This morning in Rome, our Pope, Pope Francis, has just sent a special
message to all our Muslim friends across the world, to assure you of our
prayers during this time of fasting, prayer and charity. The theme of his
message is Care of our Common Home. For as Catholics, we are deeply
concerned about the damage our modern lifestyles are causing to the
environment in which we live, and also the disorder these lifestyles bring
to our families and human relations. Both Muslims and Catholics believe
the Earth is holy; it belongs to God. It’s His work and so we must treat it
with respect. So let us pray that the ecological crisis humanity is facing
will call everyone in the world to a profound interior conversion, and to a
renewed care for the Earth, our common home.
Let me add one more thought. Great Britain is a highly secular society.
Yet you and I, Muslims and Christians, we are people of religion, faith and
spirituality. We believe in God, and we believe that every human being is
called to know Him, serve Him and love Him, to worship Him and to
respect Him, and to find in Him ultimate happiness. It’s our task to
witness to this in society, so that other people, those who say they have
no religion, those who say they’re not sure, those who are lost or on the
margins, can find their way home to Him. This is why I’d like to ask you
to pray also for us Christians, as we pray for you. Together, we have an
important task in society and so we need to be strong, solid, authentic in
our religion: in a word, holy. Indeed, it’s crucial for the well-being and the
future of our land, and something to think about as we prepare for the
General Election next week.
So thank you for listening. Thank you for your kind and warm welcome.
Thank you for giving me the enormous joy and privilege of saying these
few words to you in your Abu Bakr mosque. Ramadan Mubarak! Please
pray for me, and for the Catholic community here in Southampton and
across our whole diocese. We are praying for you.

Blessings and peace be with you all,

Eric
Reply

tolpuddle
06-08-2017, 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
As if any of those leading Muslim imams have said that their (ISIS) interpretation is part of Islam =_=!. How many of us even are shouting so to say that it is NOT part of Islam what they are doing, yet media does not gain views if people do good things or denounce such things being part of Islam. How many media are coming on this forum and quoting the Muslims saying the things ISIS is doing is NOT part of Islam?

However you sound also a bit hypocritical by saying

"The invasion of Iraq ? - by hypocrites calling themselves Christians (and for decidedly non-Christian reasons !)."

Yet not doing the same with Islam. These people that kill innocent people are not doing for Islamic reasons, but out of hatred. Please do not have double standards.
I hope to avoid double-standards.

Western leaders haven't used religious arguments to justify (or persuade the public to support) their invasions of Muslim countries, only political ones.

However, ISIS have used religious arguments to justify their activities and win-over naive young Muslims to their cause. This surely requires clerical intervention by key Muslim imams from the main Sunni countries.
Reply

Simple_Person
06-08-2017, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by tolpuddle
I hope to avoid double-standards.

Western leaders haven't used religious arguments to justify (or persuade the public to support) their invasions of Muslim countries, only political ones.

However, ISIS have used religious arguments to justify their activities and win-over naive young Muslims to their cause. This surely requires clerical intervention by key Muslim imams from the main Sunni countries.
If i am not mistaken there is something in the pledge of allegiance in US which says a country ruled under God or something like that. So the actions are if we go by that narrative also one could say is done under the name of Christianity if do not want to create double standards.

If you now say US or UK or any other western country are NOT Christian countries but Godless countries, i take by my words. However when you do say that, that is also that my mindset changes and i do not look at them as anything that is ruled according to Christians values or even something that has anything to do with God. So that is the moment that there are no double standards.

Which will be?
Reply

tolpuddle
06-09-2017, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
If i am not mistaken there is something in the pledge of allegiance in US which says a country ruled under God or something like that. So the actions are if we go by that narrative also one could say is done under the name of Christianity if do not want to create double standards.

If you now say US or UK or any other western country are NOT Christian countries but Godless countries, i take by my words. However when you do say that, that is also that my mindset changes and i do not look at them as anything that is ruled according to Christians values or even something that has anything to do with God. So that is the moment that there are no double standards.

Which will be?
I don't understand your second paragraph, but regarding the first, the oath of allegiance is deliberately wide, referring to God rather than specifically to Christianity; i.e. it is Deist, not Christian. I'm quite certain that the US oath of allegiance isn't specifically Christian, otherwise how could Muslims or Jews take it ?

Although most of the Americans who fought for Independence against King George III's Britain were Christians, their leaders (Washington, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson etc) were not - they were merely Deists, though much influenced by Christianity. They were also Freemasons, Freemasonry being a specific (and weird) form of Deism.
Reply

Serinity
06-09-2017, 04:44 PM
:salam:

Do you ever blame a knife for what blood a man has shed?

And Allah :swt: knows best.
Reply

Simple_Person
06-09-2017, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by tolpuddle
I don't understand your second paragraph, but regarding the first, the oath of allegiance is deliberately wide, referring to God rather than specifically to Christianity; i.e. it is Deist, not Christian. I'm quite certain that the US oath of allegiance isn't specifically Christian, otherwise how could Muslims or Jews take it ?

Although most of the Americans who fought for Independence against King George III's Britain were Christians, their leaders (Washington, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson etc) were not - they were merely Deists, though much influenced by Christianity. They were also Freemasons, Freemasonry being a specific (and weird) form of Deism.
So what you are saying is in other words US is NOT a Christian country ...that being said, saying God, doesn't mean God as their actions belong rather to Satan worshipers?

If that is the case, which means we judge based on actions, then also with ISIS those actions do not represent Islam as Islam isn't that shallow how to kill certain people with that also the people being killed (innocent people).

So in both cases if we go by that logic of yours, we could say not Christianity as well as not Islam are responsible for such people, as they just wear certain names and symbols and preach certain words, but the actions do not represent the religion they supposedly follow.
Reply

Abz2000
06-22-2017, 03:26 PM
MOSCOW (Sputnik) — On June 11, the Iranian military announced that they had evidence of direct US support of Daesh militants.

"These documents are planned to be released. It is necessary to mention that these documents are not written texts or some kind of contracts that could be published in a written form. This evidence is related to the aspects of battle actions. This means that the evidence show, in which locations [the United States] provided assistance to the IS. Weapons, supplies, logistical and medical assistance — all these point at this support," Hamid Reza Moghadam Far said.

The official added that Washington itself had also contributed to the creation of Daesh.

"The fact that the United States is behind the creation of the IS is more important. They cannot conceal this fact. But even today, when they state that 'we have made a mistake, creating this organization, and want to destroy it now,' they are still telling lies and it could be proved by many documents," the Iranian official said.

Daesh has overrun a number of settlements during recent years as part of their declaration of a caliphate, especially in Syrian cities, such as Raqqa, and in Iraqi cities such as Mosul. The group is infamous for numerous violent actions, including terrorist attacks and widespread destruction of cultural heritage on the occupied territories.

The United States is leading a coalition of almost 70 nations fighting against the terrorist group in Syria and Iraq. The activities, including the airstrikes, in Iraq, are conducted in support of the country's government, but those in Syria are not authorized by the UN Security Council or the Syrian government.

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/2...rt-terrorists/


One thing to keep in mind is that there was the IRA and then also the real IRA.
it is now beyond doubt that secularist gangs directly employed by the government of Britain have been causing bloodshed in Muslim majority countries whilst waving shahadah flags and claiming to be Islamic State members, this type of behaviour is characteristic of deceitful secularist leaders - the mother of which is the corrupt and corruptive british government. There was a british soldier called Frank Kitson who wrote a book called "low intensity operations" after the mau mau massacres, he described a method of setting up false flag deceiver gangs in order to discredit genuine revolutionary forces, by getting the false flag deceiver gangs to go out and commit atrocities which would be blamed on the real revolutionary group as a form of psychological warfare upon the soldiers within the genuine group and upon the world's audience including those who may incline to it and stand up in vocal or physical support for it.

There is evidence beyond doubt that the type of behaviour mentioned above has been practised by the british government - and much circumstancial evidence so far that the American government has done so too (remember the American plumber's vehicle with the shahadah flag which turned up in syria with a mounted machine gun?
Remember blackwater's eric prince training arabs in the uae after the American (u.s.a) government began to lose face due to his overtly illegal acts....much to think about.

-------


When Houston-area plumbing company owner Mark Oberholtzer sold his truck to a local dealer in October of 2013, he had no idea it would wind up on Syria's front lines being used by ISIS fighters -- with his plumbing company name and phone number still on the side.

"You know, it hurts my feelings, that anyone could possibly thing that we were connected to terrorism in any way," Oberholtzer told CBS News.

He says he was assured by the dealership that it would remove his information before selling the truck. But there it was in the photo -- which then went viral.....


....."You used to have 'Mark-1 Plumbing Inc.' would come up on the Internet," Oberholtzer says. "Now it comes up 'Mark-1 Plumbing Inc. ISIS."

He's now suing the AutoNation dealership that sold the truck for $1 million.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-pl...truck-to-isis/




The plumber said a salesman told him to stop removing the decal when he sold the 2005 Ford F-250 in October 2013, as the company would do it. The truck was resold and according to the lawsuit was shipped to Mersin, Turkey, in December 2013 before arriving in Syria.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles...ettles-lawsuit














Reply

Abz2000
06-22-2017, 03:47 PM
Here's how the treachery of the enemies of Allah played out during the previous momentous event:

The Conquest Of Mecca (Makkah)
Posted by Discover The Truth

In the year 6 Hijri, a treaty was concluded (treaty of Hudaybiyah) with the leaders of Quraysh and Prophet Muhammed. According to the pact, Quraysh and the Muslims were free to make agreements with the tribes they liked.

As a result, the Banu khuza’a tribe decided to make a pact with the Muslims. And the Banu Kinana (Banu Bakr), who were old enemies of the Khuza’a sided and made agreement with the Quraysh. Part of the agreement in these treaties was that there will be peace throughout Arabia i.e., that the parties who agreed to the pact will not fight fight against each other, nor incite or instigate any war.

While there was general peace for few years, the Muslims busied themselves with worship and preaching the message of Islam. The old feud started again between the Khuza’a and Banu Bakr b. Abdu Manat b. Kinana. The Quraysh instigated the banu Bakr in fighting against Khuza’a, as a result many men of the Khuza’ah were killed.

As a consequence of the Quraysh’s involvement and the killing of the Banu Khuza’ah’s people, the conquest of Makkah took place.

Reports

Ibn Ishaq:

“THE CAUSES THAT LED TO THE OCCUPATION OF MECCA, A.H. 8
After he had sent his force to Mu’ta the apostle stayed in Medina during the latter Jumada and Rajab. Then the B. Bakr b. Abdu Manat b. Kinana attacked Khuza’a while they were at a well of theirs in the lower region of Mecaa called al-Watir. The cause of the quarrel was that a man of B. al-Hadrami called Malik b. Abbad – the Hadramu being at that time allies of al-Aswad b. Razn – had gone out on a trading journey; and when he reached the middle of the Khuza’a country they attacked and killed him and took his possessions.
So B. Bakr attacked a man of Khuza’a and killed him; and just before Islam Khuza’a attacked the sons of al-Aswad b. Razn al-Dili who were the most prominent chiefs of b. Kinana – Salma, Kulthum, and Dhu’ayb – and killed them in Arafa at the boundary stones of the sacred area.
One of the B. al-Dil told me that B. al-Aswad during the pagan era were paid double bloodwit because of their position among them, while they only got a single bloodwit. While B. Bakr and Khuza’a were thus at enmity Islam intervened and occupied men’s minds. When the peace of Hudaybiya was concluded between the Apostle and Quraysh one of the conditions – according to what al-Zuhri told me from Urwa b. al-Zubayr from al-Miswar b. Makhrama and Marwan b. al-Hakam and others traditions – was that anyone who wanted to enter into a treaty relationship with either party could do so; the B. Bakr joined Quraysh and Khuza’a joined the Apostle. When the armistice was established B. al-Dil of B. Bakr took advantage of it against Khuza;a in their desire to revenge themselves on them for the sons of Aswad whom they had killed. So Naufal B. Mu’awiya al-Dili, who was their leader at the time, went out with the B. al-Dil, though all the B. Bakr did not follow him, and attacked Khuza’a by night while they were at al-Watir their well, killing one of their men. Both parties fell back and continued the fight. QURAYSH HELPED B. BAKR WITH WEAPONS AND SOME OF THEM FOUGHT WITH THEM sexretly under cover of the night until they drove Khuza’a into sacred area. When they reached it the B. Bakr said, ‘O Naufal, we are in the sacred area. Remember your God, remember your God!’ He replied in blasphemous words that he had no god that day. ‘Take your revenge, ye sons of Bakr. By my life, if you used to steal in the sacred area, wont you take vengeance in it?’
Now on the night they attacked them in al-Watir they killed a man called Munabbih who had gone out with one his tribesmen called Tamim b. Asad. Munabbih had a weak heart and he told Tamim to escape for he was as good as dead whether they killed him or let him go, for his heart had given out. So Tamim made off and escaped and Munabbih was overtaken and killed. When Khuza’a entered Mecca they took refue in the house of Budayl b. Warqa and the house of a freed slave of their called Rafi. … When Quraysh and B. Bakr had combined against Khuza’a and killed some of the, thereby breaking their covenanted word with the Apostle in violating Khuza’a who were in treaty with him, Amr b. Salim al-Khuza’a of the clan of B. Ka’b went to the Apostle in Medina. (This led to the conquest of Mecca).”(Ibn Ishaq, page 540 – 542) [1]

Another report, Zad al-Ma’ad:

“The Quraysh helped Banu Bakr with weapons while their chiefs, taking advantage of the night, fought Khuz’a along with Banu Bakr. Their combined charge drove Khuza’a into the sacred territory where some of the Qurayshites said to one another: ‘We are now in the sacred area. Mind your gods! Mind your gods!’ But others replied imprudently: ‘We have no god today. Take your revenge, O sons of Bakr, for you may not get a chance again.” (Zad al-Ma’ad, volume 1, page 419, and Ibn Hisham, volume 2, page 390) [2]


Scholar

Shaykh Muhammad al-Ghazali:

“THE CONQUEST OF MAKKAH
After the Treaty of Hudaybiyah the Muslims busied themselves with the spread of the Da’wah and the presentation of the teachings of Islam to all who had understanding. Their faithfulness to the Quraish was visible to all in matters that they liked or disliked and the people could see clear evidence of that. However, the Quraish persisted in their old, stagnated policy without taking into account the momentous events which had changed conditions in the Arabian peninsula and which were about to change conditions in the world as a whole. This lack of insight led the Quraish to commit a grave act of stupidity, after which the treaty of Hudabiyah was to become null and void. It happened that the Quraish, along with their allies of the Banu Bakr, attacked the Khuza’ah, who were allies of the Muslims, and killed a few of their men.
The Khuza’ah sought refuge in the sanctuary of the Ka’bah for they were not prepared for combat. Despite that, the Banu Bakr pursued them while the Quraish lent arms and assisted the Banu Bakr in their oppression.
Some men of the Banu Bakr felt that they ought not to fight in the Haram, and spoke to their chief, Naufal ibn Mu’awiyah, about this, saying: ‘We have entered the Haram, (so mind) your god, your God!’

Nevertheless, Naufal said: ‘There is no God today, Banu Bakr, Carry out your task!’
The Khuza’ah were terrified by what happened to them, and they sent Amir ibn Salim to the Prophet to tell him the news. Upon hearing the account, the Prophet promised to come to their aid. … The Prophet ordered the people to prepare themselves and said that he was going to Makkah. He urged them to be serious and brisk. He supplicated: ‘O Allah, take away the eyes and the news from the Quraish until we surprise them in their land.’ The Muslims listened to the Prophet’s order and began mobilizing their forces for the expected encounter. They knew that the decisive hour between them and the Quraish was close. [3]


https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/...omment-page-1/

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References:

[1] Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah – The Life of Muhammad Translated by A. Guillaume, page 540 – 542
[2] Muhammad Rasulullah: The Apostle Of Mercy, [Translated by Mohiudin Ahmad, Academy of Islamic Research And Publications, Lucknow (India) – Series No. 126 – Edition English 2nd Lucknow, 1982]S. Abul Hasan Ali, page 314
[3] Fiqh-us-seerah, Shaykh Muhammed al-Ghazali, page 406



---------


Hadith narrated in Sahih Bukhari from Awf Bin Malik who said that "I went to the Prophet during the Ghazwa of Tabuk while he was sitting in a leather tent. He said, "Count six signs that indicate the approach of the Hour: my death, the conquest of Jerusalem, a plague that will afflict you (and kill you in great numbers) as the plague that afflicts sheep, the increase of wealth to such an extent that even if one is given one hundred Dinars, he will not be satisfied; then an affliction which no Arab house will escape, and then a truce between you and Bani Al-Asfar (i.e. the Byzantines) who will betray you and attack you under eighty objectives. Under each objective will be twelve thousand soldiers".

The same Hadith is narrated in Abu Dawood with some different words. The Prophet said: "You will make peace with the People of Rome and then you and they together will combat an enemy. You will be victorious in that battle. After that all of you will stay at a pasture, at that time a person from among the People of the cross will raise a cross then a Muslim will get angry and rise to him and push him away. Thereafter all the People of Rome get together and attack you under eighty flags…" [Abu Dawood]
Imam Muslim narrates from Abu Hurairah reporting Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would not come until the Romans would land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people of the earth at that time will come from Madinah (to counteract them). When they will arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans would say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight with them; and the Muslims would say: Nay, by Allah, we would never get aside from you and from our brethren that you may fight them. They will then fight and a third (part) of the army would run away, whom Allah will never forgive. A third (part of the army), which would be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eye, would be killed and the third who would never be put to trial would win and they would be conquerors of Constantinople. And as they would be busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, the Satan would cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your family. They would then come out, but it would be of no avail. And when they would come to Syria, he would come out while they would be still preparing themselves for battle drawing up the ranks. Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary would descend and would lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah would see him, he would (disappear) just as the salt dissolves itself in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront him at all, even then it would dissolve completely, but Allah would kill him by his hand (Jesus) and he would show them his blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ)". [Reported by Imam Muslim]
Imam Ibn al-Muneer said: 'Till this time the incident of gathering and attacking Rome in this huge number of soldiers has not happened yet. This matter has not taken place yet. In this Hadith there are glad tidings and warning at the same time to the Muslims. This Hadith also proves that the result will be in favor of the Muslims and the Muslim army will be much greater than it is now". The Ahadith mentioned above are all correct.
Allah knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=83460



Sunan Abu Dawud,Book 35, Number 4234:*
Narrated Hudhayfah:
The tradition mentioned above (No. 4232) has also been transmitted through a different chain of narrators by Nasr ibn Asim al-Laythi who said:*We came to al-Yashkuri with a group of the people of Banu Layth.He asked: Who are these people?*We replied: Banu Layth. We have come to you to ask you about the tradition of Hudhayfah.*
He then mentioned the tradition and said:
*I asked: Apostle of Allah, will there be evil after this good?
He replied:
There will be trial (fitnah) and evil.
*I asked: Apostle of Allah, will there be good after this evil?*
He replied: Learn the Book of Allah, Hudhayfah, and adhere to its contents. He said it three times.
I asked: Apostle of Allah, will there be good after this evil?
*He replied: An illusory truce and a community with specks in its eye.*I asked: Messenger of Allah, what do you mean by an illusory community?*He replied: The hearts of the people will not return to their former condition. I asked: Messenger of Allah, will there be evil after this good?*
He replied: There will be wrong belief which will blind and deafen men to the truth in which there will be summoners at the gates of Hell. If you, Hudhayfah, die adhering to a stump, it will be better for you than following any of them.

*قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لعوف بن مالك:أعدد ستاً بين يدي الساعة موتي ثم فتح بيت المقدس ثم موتان يأخذ فيكم كعقاص الغنم ،ثم استفاضة المال حتى يعطى الرجل مائة دينار فيظل ساخطاً ،ثم هدنة تكون بينكم وبين*بني الأصفر*فيغدرون فيأتونكم تحت ثمانين غاية {راية} تحت كل غاية اثنا عشر ألفاً)) رواه البخاري

Awf bin Malik Al-Ashja'ee said that the Messenger of Allah
*صلى الله عليه وسلمduring the Battle of Tabuk said to him:*"....




There will be Hudna (truce) between you and*Bani Al-Asfar*(refers to the Romans).*
Then,*they will deceive you (break the truce)
*and will march against you under eighty banners*
and each banner will have ten thousand (soldiers)."
(Bukhari,* Ibn Majah)




11. Leave Me alone, (to deal) with the (creature) whom I created (bare and) alone!-

12. To whom I granted resources in abundance,

13. And sons to be by his side!-

14. To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable!

15. Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);-

16. By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!

17. Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!

18. For he thought and he plotted;-

19. And woe to him! How he plotted!-

20. Yea, Woe to him; How he plotted!-

21. Then he looked round;

22. Then he frowned and he scowled;

23. Then he turned back and was haughty;

24. Then said he: "This is nothing but magic, derived from of old;

25. "This is nothing but the word of a mortal!"

26. Soon will I cast him into Hell-Fire!

27. And what will explain to thee what Hell-Fire is?

28. Naught doth it permit to endure, and naught doth it leave alone!-

29. Darkening and changing the colour of man!

30. Over it are Nineteen.
Reply

LaSorcia
06-22-2017, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by tolpuddle
I don't understand your second paragraph, but regarding the first, the oath of allegiance is deliberately wide, referring to God rather than specifically to Christianity; i.e. it is Deist, not Christian. I'm quite certain that the US oath of allegiance isn't specifically Christian, otherwise how could Muslims or Jews take it ?

Although most of the Americans who fought for Independence against King George III's Britain were Christians, their leaders (Washington, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson etc) were not - they were merely Deists, though much influenced by Christianity. They were also Freemasons, Freemasonry being a specific (and weird) form of Deism.
That is correct (as you already know lol). But where did you learn real history? Because I know it wasn't in the American School System.

Yes, satire.
Reply

LaSorcia
06-22-2017, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
While there was general peace for few years, the Muslims busied themselves with worship and preaching the message of Islam.
Isn't this beautiful? This is how we should publicly conduct ourselves in peacetime.
Reply

Abz2000
06-22-2017, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by LaSorcia
Isn't this beautiful? This is how we should publicly conduct ourselves in peacetime.
It certainly is, in peacetime.
Reply

LaSorcia
06-22-2017, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
It certainly is, in peacetime.
I gotcha.

But if we all did this more in peacetime...there would be more peacetime. Allah, please strengthen our imaan and guide us all.
Reply

Abz2000
06-22-2017, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by LaSorcia
I gotcha.

But if we all did this more in peacetime...there would be more peacetime. Allah, please strengthen our imaan and guide us all.
I had more time to think about the implications of your comment.
It is incumbent upon us to busy ourselves with worship (service of Allah) and preaching of Islam at ALL times,
But which peace time are you talking about.
Or is it the case that some people get upset when the false propaganda of the enemies of Allah against Islam and Muslims begins to fall apart and their false justifications for unjust bloodshed begin to collapse, and so they schneidily attempt to portray those who set the record straight as mischief-mongers?


Or maybe some mischief-mongers prefer to pretend that all is well when they have warplanes and thousands of soldiers busy killing Muslims without just cause?
Maybe you and your family feel safe and secure in such impressions and are unable to comprehend what the millions of victims and their families are feeling.


Reply

LaSorcia
06-22-2017, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
I had more time to think about the implications of your comment.
It is incumbent upon us to busy ourselves with worship (service of Allah) and preaching of Islam at ALL times,
But which peace time are you talking about.
Or is it the case that some people get upset when the false propaganda of the enemies of Allah against Islam and Muslims begins to fall apart and their false justifications for unjust bloodshed begin to collapse, and so they schneidily attempt to portray those who set the record straight as mischief-mongers?


Or maybe some mischief-mongers prefer to pretend that all is well when they have warplanes and thousands of soldiers busy killing Muslims without just cause?
Maybe you and your family feel safe and secure in such impressions and are unable to comprehend what the millions of victims and their families are feeling.


Thanks for taking the time to think about my comment.

I just meant it as straightforward a it sounds.
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
06-22-2017, 10:12 PM
To those who complain about "extremism", I have a question:

Define extremism.
Reply

Abz2000
06-22-2017, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by LaSorcia
Thanks for taking the time to think about my comment.

I just meant it as straightforward a it sounds.
There is no need to thank me in order to come across as polite and courteous.
I did ask a question of you for which I would like a reply - that would be more near to courtesy since it has become normal for people to look into depth at what I am saying or implying whilst diverting the topic of discussion on superficial debate without any depth.

Which peace time are you alluding to in your quotes?
Reply

Abz2000
06-22-2017, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
To those who complain about "extremism", I have a question:

Define extremism.
Extremism as defined by Allah's messenger is going to unreasonable and excessive lengths in ritualistic practice whilst neglecting priorities enjoined by God.

Moderation is being a person in complete submission to Allah and living life as a true Muslim believer to the best of one's ability. Moderation includes living as a muslim, practicing the obligatory rituals enjoined by Allah, practicing some non- obligatory rituals when circumstances permit whilst keeping priorities in mind, earning halal when one is able to work, and also includes jihaad (striving ones utmost in Allah's way in order to make the word of Allah highest by establishing Islam in oneself, family, and community according to one's ability and circumstances.

Transgressing beyond bounds is transgressing the limits of Allah.
Reply

LaSorcia
06-22-2017, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
There is no need to thank me in order to come across as polite and courteous.
I did ask a question of you for which I would like a reply - that would be more near to courtesy since it has become normal for people to look into depth at what I am saying or implying whilst diverting the topic of discussion on superficial debate without any depth.

Which peace time are you alluding to in your quotes?
I'm talking about times of personal peace. That might be in the midst of pleasant or unpleasant circumstances. That might be in a time of war or a time of truce.
Reply

Abz2000
06-22-2017, 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by LaSorcia
I'm talking about times of personal peace. That might be in the midst of pleasant or unpleasant circumstances. That might be in a time of war or a time of truce.
I see, I only asked because I infered that you were trying to imply that
1. there currently exists real peace and that secularist America and it's allies were adhering to a truce and are not seeking new causes to foment injustice and unnecessary bloodshed.
2. That people who were clarifying issues and taking part in informing the masses of the real state of affairs were somehow doing something wrong since all is peaceful.

But i realize now that as you appear to claim, you were just making a statement about a situation that doesn't really mean peace. I hope we can return from the unreal imaginary to the real and just truth since we appear to have digressed vastly from pointing out facts and looking into the issues and causes for the current bloodshed so that we can see truth as truth and falsehood as falsehood in order to react properly to false accusations rather than continue to cheer on fabricated justifications for unnecessary bloodshed and injustice.
I really do believe that the minds of the masses are a great part of the process and can play a huge role in setting things right once the falsehood, confusion and truth become clear; that the political situation has an effect on our spiritual state; and is a determining factor in how many make it to paradise and how many end up in hell.
Reply

Abz2000
06-22-2017, 11:56 PM
I hope that some of the above has gone towards dispelling the myth and accusation insinuated by the archbishop of canterbury that "Muslim leaders" (as if his corrupt handlers agree with such a concept as actual Islamic leadership) should somehow take responsibility for "extremism" (as if he knows what it is).

The facts speak for themselves, the archbishop's handlers in buckingham palace and downing street are guilty of corruption and are drowning in it.
Reply

Samiul123
06-23-2017, 12:03 AM
Honestly we need more unity right now more than ever
Reply

Eric H
06-23-2017, 06:07 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Samiul123;

Honestly we need more unity right now more than ever
I absolutely agree with you, but Unity is a challenging word, I am a Catholic and you are a Muslim. I feel there is always hope, our bishop recently offered prayers and friendship for the local Muslim community. You might be interested to read about our bishop's recent visit to Abu Bakr Mosque, Southampton.


MESSAGE TO MEMBERS OF THE ABU BAKR MOSQUE
Dear Friends, I thank you for the huge joy and privilege of visiting your
beautiful Abu Bakr mosque today. I am Bishop Philip Egan, the Catholic
Bishop of Portsmouth. Originally I come from Manchester and so I do ask
your prayers for the people of that city, after the terrible bombing last
week. But I live in Portsmouth and our Diocese is a big one. It has
235,000 Catholics. It covers the south coast along to Bournemouth and
stretches north to Reading and Oxford. So on behalf of all Catholic
Christians in this region, I offer you today our sincerest greetings and
prayers for a Happy Ramadan. Ramadan Mubarak!
This morning in Rome, our Pope, Pope Francis, has just sent a special
message to all our Muslim friends across the world, to assure you of our
prayers during this time of fasting, prayer and charity. The theme of his
message is Care of our Common Home. For as Catholics, we are deeply
concerned about the damage our modern lifestyles are causing to the
environment in which we live, and also the disorder these lifestyles bring
to our families and human relations. Both Muslims and Catholics believe
the Earth is holy; it belongs to God. It’s His work and so we must treat it
with respect. So let us pray that the ecological crisis humanity is facing
will call everyone in the world to a profound interior conversion, and to a
renewed care for the Earth, our common home.
Let me add one more thought. Great Britain is a highly secular society.
Yet you and I, Muslims and Christians, we are people of religion, faith and
spirituality. We believe in God, and we believe that every human being is
called to know Him, serve Him and love Him, to worship Him and to
respect Him, and to find in Him ultimate happiness. It’s our task to
witness to this in society, so that other people, those who say they have
no religion, those who say they’re not sure, those who are lost or on the
margins, can find their way home to Him. This is why I’d like to ask you
to pray also for us Christians, as we pray for you. Together, we have an
important task in society and so we need to be strong, solid, authentic in
our religion: in a word, holy. Indeed, it’s crucial for the well-being and the
future of our land, and something to think about as we prepare for the
General Election next week.
So thank you for listening. Thank you for your kind and warm welcome.
Thank you for giving me the enormous joy and privilege of saying these
few words to you in your Abu Bakr mosque. Ramadan Mubarak! Please
pray for me, and for the Catholic community here in Southampton and
across our whole diocese. We are praying for you.

Blessings and peace be with you all,

Eric
Reply

TDWT
06-23-2017, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
To those who complain about "extremism", I have a question:

Define extremism.
Extremism, people mean the likes of Bin Laden and Isis who condone attacking innocent civilians through bombs and explosions.

Now, I know what you're going to say: "Why don't your criticize western powers for stuff like airstrikes?"

And here is my response: "Of course I am vocal and a critique of airstrikes done by those powers. I condemn terrorism whether it comes from air/drone strikes or the likes of Bin Laden and Isis.
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
06-23-2017, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by TDWT
Extremism, people mean the likes of Bin Laden and Isis who condone attacking innocent civilians through bombs and explosions.

Now, I know what you're going to say: "Why don't your criticize western powers for stuff like airstrikes?"

And here is my response: "Of course I am vocal and a critique of airstrikes done by those powers. I condemn terrorism whether it comes from air/drone strikes or the likes of Bin Laden and Isis.
This shows that you have never heard their talks on this issue. Usaamah never condoned attacks on "innocents". The word you have used is misleading. He and azh-Zhawaahiri explained that issue, in the past. It can be referred to in their speeches. They said what the Fuqahaa said, which is that people are divided into two groups:

1) Muhaarib (Fighter)
2) Ghayr Muhaarib (Non-Fighter)

They did not call for deliberate attacks against "Ghayr Muhaaribeen". The attack is aimed at the Kuffaar "Muhaaribs", and if "Ghayr Muhaaribeen" were to die as a result of those attacks, because they were near to the area at the time, and they were not targeted nor were their deaths intentional, then the Fuqahaa themselves have mentioned that this is excused.
Reply

Abz2000
06-23-2017, 07:09 PM
My research on the issue tells me that Usaamah grew up in a big and rich family but he had a mind that was less constricted by the fads and status quo, went through the phases that Arabs go through when he studied in secular england, had a decent amount of knowledge on Islam, compared it all, chose Islaam, was affected by the injustices being perpetrated around the globe, wanted to do something to rectify the problems, was assisted and used by the secularist intelligence agencies with ulterior motives and was often steered off course, he saw through the facade and saw the american government as the root of all global corruption and confusion, turned his sights on them, and was then - and only then - accused of being a so called "terrorist". There's a similar (although different) story with saddam, however Usama was the new kind of threat to corruption, he was possibly the first individual in recent times to have been named as a target of "war" rather than simple law enforcement by a large government, this is the model that was used to target an ideology directly without a government or boundary based face, the implications for such a mode of operation is quite telling to those who care to put their minds to use and attempt to foresee the goals of such attempted stage setting by putting events into a chrono-logical perspective.
Reply

TDWT
06-23-2017, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
This shows that you have never heard their talks on this issue. Usaamah never condoned attacks on "innocents". The word you have used is misleading. He and azh-Zhawaahiri explained that issue, in the past. It can be referred to in their speeches. They said what the Fuqahaa said, which is that people are divided into two groups:

1) Muhaarib (Fighter)
2) Ghayr Muhaarib (Non-Fighter)

They did not call for deliberate attacks against "Ghayr Muhaaribeen". The attack is aimed at the Kuffaar "Muhaaribs", and if "Ghayr Muhaaribeen" were to die as a result of those attacks, because they were near to the area at the time, and they were not targeted nor were their deaths intentional, then the Fuqahaa themselves have mentioned that this is excused.
Collateral damage, seriously? You want to criticize western governments for this and yet you say it's ok. Wow. And you're an Al Qaeda supporter. Look at that.

You can't accuses Western powers of doing terrorist attacks when you condone terrorism yourself. I don't mean to be rude, but there is a lot of hypocrisy coming from you in a lot of issues.
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
06-23-2017, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by TDWT
I don't mean to be rude, but there is a lot of hypocrisy coming from you in a lot of issues.
Do you know what hypocrisy means? What Nifaaq means? Who the Munaafiqeen are?

The ones who sell their Deen for the Dunyaa, and boot-lick the Americans - those are the Munaafiqeen. And their scholars who promote boot-licking? Those are the "Heads of Nifaaq (Hypocrisy)".
Reply

TDWT
06-23-2017, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
Do you know what hypocrisy means? What Nifaaq means? Who the Munaafiqeen are?

The ones who sell their Deen for the Dunyaa, and boot-lick the Americans - those are the Munaafiqeen. And their scholars who promote boot-licking? Those are the "Heads of Nifaaq (Hypocrisy)".
Not that kind of hypocrisy, this kind for example:

You: Western powers are so horrible. In an attempt to kill terrorist, they bomb countries and kill citizens in the way. Who cares if its collaterals damage, innocents are caught in the crossfire and are dying.

When Al Qaeda does it, You: It's ok.

Second

You: Hating and judging muslims based on their religion is wrong. How awful.

Also you: Hating and judging jews based on their religion is ok though.
Reply

Abz2000
06-23-2017, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by TDWT
Not that kind of hypocrisy, this kind for example:

You: Western powers are so horrible. In an attempt to kill terrorist, they bomb countries and kill citizens in the way. Who cares if its collaterals damage, innocents are caught in the crossfire and are dying.

When Al Qaeda does it, You: It's ok.

Second

You: Hating and judging muslims based on their religion is wrong. How awful.

Also you: Hating and judging jews based on their religion is ok though.
One can't paint justice and injustice with the same brush, the corrupt secularists have no justification for killing people in the name of Islaah, since the corrupt secularists have already unlawfully invaded countries based on lies and have killed millions of people without just cause, and are the root cause of corruption and disorder and need to repent of the injustices they have been commiting, must seek God's forgiveness, and set themselves right before they have a right to kill others in the name of justice - so yes, the "other definition" for hypocrisy applies in this case too.

Lemme tell you a joke I heard when I was a child, it may help you put things in just perspective.

A little kid comes home from school one day and sees his parents at it on the sofa,
He runs upstairs, grabs his crippled grandma, and starts trying to jux her,
His dad hears the commotion and yelling and runs upstairs,
Dad: What the hell you doing you little imbecille,
Boy: if you can jux my mom - I can jux yours.


Moral: nobody has a right to commit a haraam act - Allah is the best to legislate what is lawful - and He is more wise and just than george bush, barrak obama, and donald trump.

Do your research on the battles of the prophet pbuh and know that he fought in Allah's way for justice.
Reply

TDWT
06-23-2017, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
One can't paint justice and injustice with the same brush, the corrupt secularists have no justification for killing people in the name of Islaah, since the corrupt secularists have already unlawfully invaded countries based on lies and have killed millions of people without just cause, and are the root cause of corruption and disorder and need to repent of the injustices they have been commiting, must seek God's forgiveness, and set themselves right before they have a right to kill others in the name of justice - so yes, the "other definition" for hypocrisy applies in this case too.

Lemme tell you a joke I heard when I was a child, it may help you put things in just perspective.

A little kid comes home from school one day and sees his parents at it on the sofa,
He runs upstairs, grabs his crippled grandma, and starts juxing her,
His dad hears the commotion and runs upstairs,
Dad: What the hell you doing you little imbecille,
Boy: if you can jux my mom - I can jux yours.


Moral: nobody has a right to commit a haraam act - Allah is the best to legislate what is lawful - and He is more wise and just than george bush, barrak obama, and donald trump.

Do your research on the battles of the prophet pbuh and know that he fought in Allah's way for justice.
Yeah, this is coming from an ISIS and Al Qaeda supporter, so I'm taking what you say with a grain of salt.
Reply

Abz2000
06-23-2017, 11:14 PM
I am a supporter of truth and justice. My ultimate allegiance goes way above the labels which you mention and I see a lack of intellectual capacity in the tendency to resort to labelling and bland demonisation via constantly demonised expensively propagandised labels - when one runs out of valid, constructive, and just reasoning. It's a tune which I see played out all over the place when certain gangs are presented with just reasoning to which they are dumbstruck - enemy image fearmongering substance lacking syndrome.

Oh you support pythagoras theorem and he was a greek (or whatever) so you must be gay aswell.
Or: you say Eid Mubarak, and Mubarak is a terrorist leader of Egypt, so I hate you.
Reply

TDWT
06-24-2017, 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
I am a supporter of truth and justice. My ultimate allegiance goes way above the labels which you mention and I see a lack of intellectual capacity in the tendency to resort to labelling and bland demonisation via constantly demonised expensively propagandised labels - when one runs out of valid, constructive, and just reasoning. It's a tune which I see played out all over the place when certain gangs are presented with just reasoning to which they are dumbstruck - enemy image fearmongering substance lacking syndrome.

Oh you support pythagoras theorem and he was a greek (or whatever) so you must be gay aswell.
Or: you say Eid Mubarak, and Mubarak is a terrorist leader of Egypt, so I hate you.
You have not understood the point I was making, but I am not going to waste my time with you.
Reply

Abz2000
06-24-2017, 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by TDWT
You have not understood the point I was making, but I am not going to waste my time with you.
My duty is to understand Allah, you are under no obligation to waste time.
Reply

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