apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

[hatsoff]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

Thanks!

[sister herb]

It´s not a lack of freedom. We all are free to follow the right path which has been explained in the Quran (so "to believe what the evidence indicates is true") and save our souls at the Day of Judgement. You are welcome to learn more about those things if you are interesting. It´s never too late. ;)

And when it goes to the open-mindeness of the westerners, I as the westerner dare to disagree about it. I have met many very closed-minded people here in the west - specially when it goes to the respect of Muslim´s belief. I even have witness racism and Islamophobia. Have you ever noticed those things?

By the way, I am sure we have discussed about this matter also before in this forum. Did you search older topics before you asked those your questions?

[Scimitar]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue.

As long as your brain doesn't fall out, I guess.

But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

They do? News to me.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

You're mistaken. I think you have dark ages Christian Europe mixed up with Islam mate.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

No.

I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

Thanks!

I've doubted my faith many times in the past... but through study and reflection I have come to understand that it is in Atheism that one is truly left wandering without direction. Islam is where I am comfortable, my belief in God and His messenger are where I find direction. And it is in the practice of my faith where I find peace, peace enough to become a better human being far beyond what I would be able to muster as an Atheist without direction would.

I wonder, why are you an atheist? Where do you get your moral compass from? and what do you mean by "evidence"??? ;)

I don't see how an atheist can justify morality based on "survival of the fittest" which itself is antithetical to moral virtue. Neither do I see how an atheist believes evidences are solely empirical by nature, bit of a one trick pony, is your science - and might I also add - that science doesn't ever ask "why" and is only concerned with the "how" - process, not reason. Science is thus, quite devoid of "reason"! It is a bit mindless like that!

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue.

Don't you mean "open-mindlessness" ???

[Futuwwa]

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

Loaded question is loaded. I've never been subjected to any of that, nor seen any indication that I would.

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue.

Right until the moment your open-mindedness leads you to conclusions that are socially unacceptable. At the very least, the fact that you have arrived at such conclusions is held as evidence that you were never really open-minded in the first place, but either stupid, brainwashed or under the influence of [insert cognitive flaw du jour].

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[M.I.A.]

..it doesnt bother me.

I live in a place where a lot of people do a lot of things..

And nobody is judged until they meet people who disagree with them.

I found two youtube videos that highlight my problem with the world as it is..

Its like 8 minutes of time combined.

https://youtu.be/nm12SOsgGlU

https://youtu.be/hZGTQXrBsXE

Maybe i misunderstand but we fall out of favour so easily.

Lol i suppose as long as respite is given we are free to do and say as we please.

how much credibility can be given the groups similar to isis? Judge, jury and execitioners although im not so sure..

People still dead though.

[fschmidt]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue.

That should be the start of a comedy routine. I can't think of any culture in the world that is more closed-minded than modern Western culture. If it is discovered in the West that you don't conform to their beliefs, you will be ridiculed and quite likely won't be able to get a job.

I am not Muslim, I follow the Old Testament. Yet I attend mosque because Muslims are one of the only people who are open-minded enough to accept people of other beliefs. (The other tolerant group that I know of are traditional Anabaptists.)

[Kawlah]

I am a Muslim who has openly apostated (due to mental illness) before.

A few of my fellow muslims who didn´t understand were angry at me, or disgusted. Most were just sad for me. No one threatened me. Pure Islam teaches freedom in faith unless you live in a country under Shariah, and even then you must go around trying to get others to apostate or openly insult Allah and the Messenger (PBUH) to be punished. And even when you face execution, if you swear on Allah that you are a believer no one may proceed to execute you.

So those people who live in fear of their lives usually come from a place where cultural honor is mixed with Islam, and not pure Islam.

[T L]

I am a Muslim who has openly apostated (due to mental illness) before.

A few of my fellow muslims who didn´t understand were angry at me, or disgusted. Most were just sad for me. No one threatened me. Pure Islam teaches freedom in faith unless you live in a country under Shariah, and even then you must go around trying to get others to apostate or openly insult Allah and the Messenger (PBUH) to be punished. And even when you face execution, if you swear on Allah that you are a believer no one may proceed to execute you.

So those people who live in fear of their lives usually come from a place where cultural honor is mixed with Islam, and not pure Islam.

Salaam

Islam is a way of balance. Once you fall into any extreme it will result in rage, ego or sadness by the choices you've made and the thoughts you manifest. All three of those which are rooted in evil.
Happiness, peace and acceptance of one another should be easy, right? That choice is down to us. Even if we cannot agree with another's way of life, accept it, let it have no bearing on our lives for it is not in our control.
Why destroy our brain cells over someone else's decision (from their past or present, despite having no knowlegde of what they might be in the future) when in the End, "no soul will avail another" - but this shouldn't stop you from practicing patience and kindness.

We all commit these small crimes from time to time, of being quick to judge and which sometimes result in aggressive negative behaviour, and may Allah (swt) forgive us for that , Ameen.
We can't escape our families, our culture, the society we are born to live in - relocating, cutting ties is sometimes not an option. But God has taught us to learn from one another - even if our beliefs do not align, take the good and leave the bad. Educate and share, be open to adapting and change. You must be fluid in this existence and find opportunities in rejection, if something irks you, take it with a pinch of salt and reframe it, see the potential rather than being pessimistic and destructive. Inspire each other.
"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another." - (49:13)


Welcome back.

[keiv]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

Thanks!

Are you really an advocate for freedom? Exactly where in the west are you from because I got some news for you...

[Scimitar]

Are you really an advocate for freedom? Exactly where in the west are you from because I got some news for you...

hahahaaaa love it!!!

[al-Andalusi]

I love when these loaded questions are leved against Islam with such a smug attitude

Yes, as a born and raised westerner, I can say it is definately an open minded place, perhaps to a fault. Where else but the modern west could we nearly eradicate both measles and neo-nazism, only to have them come back in epidemic levels due to "personal freedoms" ;D

That said, anyone is free to leave Islam as they please. I see no reason why one would be so bothered by being cut off from the muslim community when they make an active choice to leave it. As for me, i have no fear. I am steadfast in my belief, and I personally would never threaten anyone for doubt or outright breaking from Islam. It is there choice, and there should be no compulsion.

[Supernova]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

Thanks!

:haha:

[happymuslim]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

Thanks!

Well, the number of Islamic converts are growing sooo, I’m not sure if your statements are true bcuz the stats say otherwise

[Scimitar]

An apostate surrounded by Muslims,



A laugh a minute, in that one, with a good ole grand ending to boot... or was that a sendoff? :D

[keiv]

An apostate surrounded by Muslims,



A laugh a minute, in that one, with a good ole grand ending to boot... or was that a sendoff? :D

That ending! LOL

That apostate just executed herself. What an embarrassment. Imagine if he asked that question from the very beginning. The conversation would of ended before it even started

[Scimitar]

That ending! LOL

Gotta love bro Hussain ma sh'Allah.

That apostate just executed herself. What an embarrassment. Imagine if he asked that question from the very beginning. The conversation would of ended before it even started

He gave her so many chances before giving her the rope to hang herself with hehe,.It was an absolute pleasure to film and edit this! Alhamdulillah!!!

Here is bro Mansur, schooling some dogmatic Christians - I think you will like this one too!



A right corker!!! :D enjoy, my bro!

[hatsoff]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I hesitate to reply, but I don't want you to think it was a hit-and-run post. Even if I don't reply to all the responses, that doesn't mean I'm not reading them and thinking about them. But let me give a few brief thoughts.

Loaded question is loaded. I've never been subjected to any of that, nor seen any indication that I would.

Yeah, it is somewhat loaded, I freely admit. But hopefully it's not too loaded. I'm not trying to say that threatening apostates is what Islam teaches, necessarily. But the fact remains, there are many people out in the world who believe that apostates should be murdered. You may disagree with them, but they're out there all the same. If I was a Muslim, that would bother me a lot.

I can't think of any culture in the world that is more closed-minded than modern Western culture. If it is discovered in the West that you don't conform to their beliefs, you will be ridiculed and quite likely won't be able to get a job.

I disagree as to the severity of the problem---there are many non-western nations where the situation is a lot worse!---but I do agree that people in the west are not anywhere near as open-minded as they sometimes profess to be.

In fact, this is one of the reasons I have thought about this. Since I live in the west, I'm acutely aware that having sufficiently non-politically-correct beliefs can get a person into considerable trouble. And that bothers me greatly, as I'm not really free at all to openly disagree with certain beliefs and values. So, I wonder if the lack of freedom to be truly open-minded bothers Muslims, too.

[Scimitar]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I hesitate to reply, but I don't want you to think it was a hit-and-run post. Even if I don't reply to all the responses, that doesn't mean I'm not reading them and thinking about them. But let me give a few brief thoughts.

WOW, I humored you with a response and you have a "get out of jail" card? amazing!!! Must be those open minded western morals of yours eh? no common courtesy to be found there I guess!

Yeah, it is somewhat loaded, I freely admit. But hopefully it's not too loaded.

I'm not trying to say that threatening apostates is what Islam teaches, necessarily.

Well, at least you got this right! That's one point for you. You can cash it in next time you order a loaded brain fart!

But the fact remains, there are many people out in the world who believe that apostates should be murdered.

When exactly did your subjective opinion become a fact?

You may disagree with them, but they're out there all the same. If I was a Muslim, that would bother me a lot.

Good thing you aint then, isn't it? But did you stop to wonder about those of us who ACTUALLY ARE MUSLIM? coz it don't bother us, a shred!

The rest of your post seems suspiciously a lot like an attempt at brown tonguing. Another bad western habit!

[Futuwwa]

Yeah, it is somewhat loaded, I freely admit. But hopefully it's not too loaded. I'm not trying to say that threatening apostates is what Islam teaches, necessarily. But the fact remains, there are many people out in the world who believe that apostates should be murdered. You may disagree with them, but they're out there all the same. If I was a Muslim, that would bother me a lot.

Such believs are indeed widespread, and they have real consequences. They are, however, far from universal, which your post was effectively premised on.

[M.I.A.]

"Since I live in the west, I'm acutely aware that having sufficiently non-politically-correct beliefs can get a person into considerable trouble. And that bothers me greatly, as I'm not really free at all to openly disagree with certain beliefs and values."

Freedom of speech still exists in the west..

But one should be wary of which audience one seeks.

Political correctness allows for much to be said, its an art form.. to create waves under the surface..or subdue them.

But in reality, in speaking plainly.. is where the moves are made.

And political correctness often follows.

Imo.. one subject just leads on to the next in terms of understanding.

At the end of the day the "choice" is yours.. until it isnt.

The imams son who is a solicitor gave the sermon last friday..

On poltical opposition to sharia law higher up in the country.. and its lack of political correctness in its expression.

Strange days.

..i just dont speak because i dont know what the hell comes out my mouth sometimes.

Probably only understand what you said after you already left the room.

Strange place.

Not with the ride or die crew though..

Although inevitably..

The faces become familiar.

[talibilm]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

Thanks!

Hi,

The Answer is already in your question '' The evidence '' Any person with true reasoning and non prejudiced feels believing One God that the Glorious Quran lays down is incomparable to any other religions even if they stressed monotheism.

So leaving something ''clear cut'' as Islam is really is a blunt injustice to the Creator God. Though Islam is not forced on any one but Once who accepts Islam '' SINCERELY'' will never leave Islam.

those days Jews and even now accept islam just to discredit by leaving it soon , so apostasy law in Islam is just a deterrant to such mischief makers.

[air]

It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

Thanks!

Is freedom really the right thing? What is freedom anyway?
Are you completely free right now and able to do anything? Can you prove it?

Sorry to disappoint you, there is no such thing as completely free. We live as social beings, when we do something, it will affect others. Don't you think we need guidance that can make our actions favored by our Creator and can give benefits to other beings?

I choose Islam as my guidance, the true guidance of our Creator. And of course there are rules that I should obey, and I "feel" I should obey it, right?

I don't understand why you are bothered by punishment? Punishment is required to make sure that we are stay in the right path right?

[Al Sultan]

How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

No and no, I had misconceptions, doubts, and confusions, but I didn't lose my faith, why? because I asked people who know more than me, and I would always search for answers, so if one has doubts about Islam, he should seek knowledge and ask about it, and I have never seen anyone threatened for doubting Islam, even if someone did, a brother would explain to him/her and clear up his/her doubts.

[fschmidt]

In fact, this is one of the reasons I have thought about this. Since I live in the west, I'm acutely aware that having sufficiently non-politically-correct beliefs can get a person into considerable trouble. And that bothers me greatly, as I'm not really free at all to openly disagree with certain beliefs and values. So, I wonder if the lack of freedom to be truly open-minded bothers Muslims, too.

Freedom is rarely the concern of the majority. It is generally the concern of an enlightened minority. And I would include Muhammad in that enlightened minority.

It sounds like you will soon get in trouble as an atheist heretic. I know because I was in that situation. I was an atheist most of my life, but when I discovered that atheists are incredibly intolerant people, I solved the problem by redefining God as the forces of nature and now I can say with confidence that I am a theist and I can comfortably attend mosque. Problem solved, and no more having to deal with those hostile atheists.

[Scimitar]

Freedom is rarely the concern of the majority. It is generally the concern of an enlightened minority. And I would include Muhammad in that enlightened minority.

It sounds like you will soon get in trouble as an atheist heretic. I know because I was in that situation. I was an atheist most of my life, but when I discovered that atheists are incredibly intolerant people, I solved the problem by redefining God as the forces of nature and now I can say with confidence that I am a theist and I can comfortably attend mosque. Problem solved, and no more having to deal with those hostile atheists.

Could you not take your belief a step further and play with the idea that God created the forces of nature, laws of physics and other random musings like quantum mechanics and fractal realities?

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Hi, first off, welcome to the board, :) even if you're a member here since 2008, as I personally hadn't at least seen your posts previously or had the privilege to e-meet you, hatsoff. :statisfie

So, I'd like to explain and contextualize the matter for your better edification. On the contrary, in Islam, open-mindedness is a virtue dependent on intent and may be regarded as a means to attaining higher understanding of the religion. For example, it is well-known that in Chapter 2 of the Qur'an, Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) asks Allah (God) how can he resurrect human beings. In fact,Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) said, “My Lord! Show me how You give life to the dead.” Allah then questions him as to whether he is asking because he doesn't believe, and Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) said that he does but he wanted to learn to be stronger in his faith. That is, he was asking God to provide him with certainty, which Allah then did when he asked him to slaughter birds and scatter them to the ends or corners of the land and then call the birds to him, which he did. The birds then miraculously returned alive to him, which enabled him to acquire certainty in the resurrection of human beings on the to-yet-happen Judgment Day.

For example, let's imagine a male says to a woman in a conversation to a woman about feminism, "So, you're a feminist because you're butt-ugly and can't get a man, right?" Do you really think this man wants to learn about feminism or has any insight he's willing to glean from why the woman might have turned into a feminist? Probably not. He's already formed his opinion, and he is just using the question as a way to denigrate the woman. So, even if he is asking a question, he's probably not open-minded and likely not change his mind even if he is provided the answers to his questions. This is then not open-mindedness.

Even in older Islamic theocratic societies wherein the law laid out that apostasy was punishable by death, the reality in practice was that lay societies did not police themselves looking for apostates because that would be rather asinine and would have in an ironical move only distanced psychologically people from the religion. Rather, only when a person publicly announced his apostasy in a manner that led the rulership of the nation or state to see him as a threat with the allegiance of the person in question and the welfare of the state hanging in balance did authorities take any action. Now, the reason you or many others, have trouble understanding this concept perhaps is because in contemporary world we don't conceive of or have a modern-day equivalent of Benedict Arnold, traitor to the Revolutionary War, who would switch sides and raise the stakes in the possibility of defeat of the nation. But in Islamic theocratic societies wherein the world's geopolitical scene was unstable and the survival of a people dependent on either dominating or being dominated, that would have been catastrophic for any nation. So, an apostate in theocratic societies was of course then considered a traitor to the nation, because the religion was the state and the state was the religion and each was mutually inclusive of one another.

In today's world, apostates are often shunned from their families, but they are rarely if ever killed. And the only threats I have heard being made of against apostates are the ones that are the most vocal of the people as Islamophobes and seeking to truly undermine the peace and security which they seem to want for themselves but are actively trying to undercut for the Muslim populace wholesale in the West. Personally, I don't believe in shunning, threatening, or ill-treating an apostate, just as I wouldn't any other human being either (no matter how odious). But I don't control Internet trolls that take some sick pride in so doing or deranged or sociopathic persons like ISIS-inspired individuals who want to exert their power or assert their superiority or dominance over another human being.

Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

Are you sure you want to follow where the evidence leads? Because if that is true, I would suggest you go to your local mosque; believe it or not, we're normal people living our normal lives. We're not thinking about how I'm not allowed to follow where the evidence leads, because we do like to follow where evidence leads. For example, I used to be an atheist, and I'm a Muslim today because I'm 100% convinced of Islam. I don't particularly care if others are not so convinced, because I don't do or care or live my life dictated by what other people are doing or want to do. If everybody was jumping off a cliff, you can be 100% sure I wouldn't do it because others were doing it unless I myself wanted to do it! I'm an ENFP on the Myers-Briggs personality test spectrum, and I was tickled pink with how accurate a read it was on my personality. When I was in the early stages of my Islam, at a particularly difficult time of life, I did want to leave Islam not because I was not convinced of the religion but because I was sick and tired of the new troubles assaulting my life, with which I didn't have to deal with when I was an atheist but now did as a Muslim. But at no point did even the thought that I could be threatened with death honestly ever cross my mind because that is such baloney; at least in the West, most people (including Muslim communities) couldn't care less what you do or believe as long as you're not harming anybody. That said, I don't doubt that there are some Muslims from fundamentalist families who might be threatened with death for pursuing doubt, but I honestly believe that is rare from my interactions with the Muslim community and not as the media would like to depict an "issue." Even if you read atheist boards (which I have done), you'll see that different people from faiths other than Islam being afraid to come out of the closet as an atheist because they're afraid of their family or friends' reactions. So, I'm also sorry to say that people are generally shunned for leaving religion; while I don't think that is particularly helpful or nice to the person who has left the religion, I don't think it is either fruitful or accurate to characterize such happenings as a "Muslim" issue or one specific to Islam. It is not.

So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

Personally, I don't think there is a lack of freedom; you might think I am obfuscating and that's your right 100%. But from my end where I'm standing, I honestly am 100% telling you the 100% truth. And I don't think I'm going to be threatened with punishment should I leave Islam, because frankly if I ever did leave the faith (nauzbillah - God forbid), I rather doubt I would spew BS about Islam or against Muslims because I have had a rather largely positive experience. For example, when I left atheism, I didn't spew BS against atheists either. Atheists are not perfect, yeah? Well, guess what? Muslims are not perfect either. In all my time as a Muslim, I have never had a problem with Islam, but I have encountered problematic thinking in some Muslims whether on the Internet or real life. I don't see these specific Muslims, however, as a representation of Islam, as the Muslim community is quite diverse, and I take individuals as individuals. Some I'll like, and some I'll never like. My attitude is that of a shrug-and-whatever on individuals I don't happen to like; I figure if a Muslim or a non-Muslim is a hateful moron, he/she is welcome to be one, and I am still going to live my life with full positivity and in pursuit of goodness for humanity and as a person striving to be the best version of myself InshaAllah (God-willing) which is what I have always believed Islam asks of each human being to do.

Thanks for your questions. Take care.

And peace. :statisfie

[AntiScimitar]

Wow, you really have that, "Checkmate Atheist" feel to you.

Right off the bat, you assuming that atheists are "lost" is very naive. It is naive of you to assume that someone bases their morals entirely off of the scientific method, because that's not how the world works. Science is understanding of the natural world. It's not, "understanding why I should have enough human decency not to kill someone."
The fact of the matter is that, morality is a social construct, and that humans have been socially selected to value certain trains and behaviors. For instance, murder is considered "bad" wherever you go. Could you argue that religion set the first standards of morality, sure. I would argue that society as a whole has contributed more to the morality sections of our lives than religionever did.

If you can't look past your outdated book for teachings on morality, then you're probably the lost one here, because if you can't imagine morals without your book, what would you be doing right now without it?

One other thing. The only reason why it's not science's job to ask, "WHY" is because science, unlike religion, doesn't think that the universe literally revolves around them, and was made specifically for you. It's honestly really conceited.

[yes.i.am.muslim]

Wallahee akhee it breaks my heart

[Hamza Asadullah]

Wow, you really have that, "Checkmate Atheist" feel to you.

Right off the bat, you assuming that atheists are "lost" is very naive. It is naive of you to assume that someone bases their morals entirely off of the scientific method, because that's not how the world works. Science is understanding of the natural world. It's not, "understanding why I should have enough human decency not to kill someone."
The fact of the matter is that, morality is a social construct, and that humans have been socially selected to value certain trains and behaviors. For instance, murder is considered "bad" wherever you go. Could you argue that religion set the first standards of morality, sure. I would argue that society as a whole has contributed more to the morality sections of our lives than religionever did.

If you can't look past your outdated book for teachings on morality, then you're probably the lost one here, because if you can't imagine morals without your book, what would you be doing right now without it?

One other thing. The only reason why it's not science's job to ask, "WHY" is because science, unlike religion, doesn't think that the universe literally revolves around them, and was made specifically for you. It's honestly really conceited.

I'm sure it works both ways. Generally Atheists tend to be anti-theiest and themselves believe that people who follow religion are lost.

With regards to your assertion about morality being a "social construct" then how do you explain for example the natural inclination of love between a Mother and it's child? Even in the animal kingdom you see this. Also the natural inclination to do good and what is "right"? You see the issue is that you will never be able to explain "natural inclination" but try to justify it in your mind with baseless illogical theories like everything else you disbelieve in. You will always have more questions than answers.

Whether you want to believe it or not we all follow something. In our case we follow an organised structured religion with guidance (scripture). In your case you follow Science. Now what we can say is that although religion can be dynamic the core principles will never change. However in your case Science is ever changing with many contradicting theories much of which does not have full backing by scientific basis.

So Science is essentially a contradictory and ever changing amalgamation of theories and hypothesis much of which do not have any factual basis and will most probably never have answers to the most fundamental questions. However even in the scientific community there is a theist Vs anti-theist science where theist scientists put forward significant evidence to pointing towards an "Intelligent designer" and Atheist Scientists oppose it with some other weird baseless theories just to try and justify a "random existence theory".

Those with an atheist agenda are in authoratitive positions in the World and so have purposely given a media platform and authority to Atheist Science to spread their lies across Society and in schools trying to brainwash all to believe in baseless lies so that they eventually disbelieve in the truth and follow their arrogant desires.

However the truth will always prevail and you will see hate filled Atheists across the internet trying to justify their absurd theories to gain some sort of peace in their hearts but believe me you will always have more questions than answers and your religion - Science will never give you what you are looking for. So open your heart to the truth and without any bias look into the Qur'an for yourself:

https://quran.com/?local=en

[AntiScimitar]

"With regards to your assertion about morality being a "social construct" then how do you explain for example the natural inclination of love between a Mother and it's child? Even in the animal kingdom you see this. Also the natural inclination to do good and what is "right"? You see the issue is that you will never be able to explain "natural inclination" but try to justify it in your mind with baseless illogical theories like everything else you disbelieve in. You will always have more questions than answers. "

Morality is a social construct in the sense that there's no such thing as morality in the wilderness. The animals without the ability to survive, simply don't. That being said, if a tiger kills a pig, would you consider it wrong? No, the tiger is trying to get his dinner. That's because in the animal kingdom, they don't have "rules" or "Morality." Your assertion that I, as an atheist can't have a standard set of morals furthers the point that morality is a SOCIAL construct. (Because you think that with my atheism, I'm "removed" from your society, therefore can't have morals.) It's not illogical, it's actually the exact antithesis of illogical. Though, please continue with your Ad Hominem

In regards to a mother loving her child, even in the animal kingdom, that's simply the mother making sure that her child has enough tools to survive in their harsh environment, and keep the species moving. That being said, some snakes actually eat their eggs. If you touch a baby deer, it's mother won't be able to recognize it. But so much for "love" right?

I'm saying that people don't do things that animals do, because we are humans. Our societies have RULES, through many years of social selection. Criminals are "selected" out by going to jail (or whatever punishment is due in your society.) It even adds as incentive to not do, "Bad" things. You certainly don't need a religion to tell you right from wrong buddy.

Whether you want to believe it or not we all follow something. In our case we follow an organised structured religion with guidance (scripture). In your case you follow Science. Now what we can say is that although religion can be dynamic the core principles will never change. However in your case Science is ever changing with many contradicting theories much of which does not have full backing by scientific basis.

You are very right, we follow morals set by our society and/or worldview. Because it's a social construct.
I don't "follow" science. Science is a tool to explain the natural world, but it can't explain how you'll chose to live your life.
To clarify, there are things I know and believe (Like how the earth orbits around the sun) because it's backed by EVIDENCE. That doesn't mean that I "follow" science it just means that it's a tool that explains the world around me. It's entirely up to me to make my own assertions.

My main contention with you, thus far, is the idea that you need to, "Follow" something. Make your own choices about life.

So Science is essentially a contradictory and ever changing amalgamation of theories and hypothesis much of which do not have any factual basis and will most probably never have answers to the most fundamental questions. However even in the scientific community there is a theist Vs anti-theist science where theist scientists put forward significant evidence to pointing towards an "Intelligent designer" and Atheist Scientists oppose it with some other weird baseless theories just to try and justify a "random existence theory".

The statement that, "Science is essentially a contradictory and ever changing amalgamation of theories and hypothesis which do nothing have any factual basis." is entirely false. Plain and simple. Science aims for measurable results through testing and analysis.
The fact is, unlike religion, science doesn't make assertions without EVIDENCE.
A lot of theists toss around, "theory" and "hypothesis" interchangeably, but a theory is one of the highest honors something can receive in the scientific world, that's because "theories" are only found through constant testing and observation. In fact, the scientific method calls for repeated experimentation until the observation is indistinguishable from the theory.

Theist scientists in nature are biased. It's not a scientist's JOB to tell you whether or not you should believe in your god. It's a scientist's job to inform others so they can understand, and make conclusions of the natural world. That being said, a theist scientist first and foremost will always try to prove their god. This of course leads to discrepancies that can be contended.

Those with an atheist agenda are in authoratitive positions in the World and so have purposely given a media platform and authority to Atheist Science to spread their lies across Society and in schools trying to brainwash all to believe in baseless lies so that they eventually disbelieve in the truth and follow their arrogant desires.

It's statements like, this above me. Is why I'm here. For one, "Atheist Science" is simply "Science". That's because Science's job isn't to prove or disprove your god. Atheists USE science as a way to gain understanding of their natural world, and therefore the validity of claims produced by a religion. The "lies" you claim are simply observations of our natural world.

What I would call a, "lie" is the entire, "anti-science" agenda that theists tend to have. Especially since your religion attempts, a cute but albeit futile, attempt to prove itself. It's almost like you'll only use science when it supports your agenda and muslim worldview. :nervous:

However the truth will always prevail and you will see hate filled Atheists across the internet trying to justify their absurd theories to gain some sort of peace in their hearts but believe me you will always have more questions than answers and your religion - Science will never give you what you are looking for. So open your heart to the truth and without any bias look into the Qur'an for yourself:

It's weird how you call Atheists, "hate filled" when thus far, I haven't actually insulted you once. I don't have a problem with you, I just don't believe in your specific ideology. But, you on the other hand have made generalization, after generalization, after generalization on my character. All while keeping your shiny white, religious "high ground."
I think it says more about you than it does me.
I think it means that you don't like having your opinions challenged, so you'd rather smear others through the mud than actually, and honestly, have a conversation with them.

As far as the Quran goes, I was actually raised a muslim. I live in Riyadh, I've been to Mecca and Medina, I'm fluent in Arabic, and I have been an atheist for two years. It's funny how that now I'm an atheist, I can truly see the quran from an "unbiased" standpoint and reject it as false. While you, as a muslim by nature have to either refute, or deny any claims made about your book. Seems very biased to me.

[Hamza Asadullah]

You still have not explained where "natural inclination" comes from. You dodged the question completely simply because you cannot explain it and have no answer for it just as you have no answer to the most fundamental questions of our existence.

Yes there are many cultural "norms" that come about in different societies in different era's but what is fundamental to all humans and animals is the natural inclination to love and care for off spring. This is not something that is "learnt". It is something innate in every living creature. If the first humans killed and ate their young then we would not be alive today. However they went against their natural inclination of eating to survive and even put their young before themselves in this regard. How do you explain that? They did not "learn it" as they were the first humans. The same is the case in the animal kingdom where the Mother sacrifices food for her young. There are many other natural innate inclinations but I have given these two as examples.

On top of that is the natural inclination to do good. If as you assert that everything moral is a "social construct" then why is "rape, murder" and every other evil thing not "morally accepted" by any society?

In Nazi Germany at the time it became "morally acceptable" to persecute, kill and maim the Jews just like it is "morally accepted" in Burmese society today with regards to the Rohingya. So in your view because it is "morally acceptable" in these societies then it is "acceptable". However in most societies from the beginning to now it is almost always "morally accepted" to do good and repel evil. Why is it not the other way around? Again it is because of a "natural inclination" to be good and do good.

You claim you don't follow Science as it is a mere tool to explain natural processes but what is asserted by Atheist Scientists you will blindly believe just because it is "claimed" that a particular theory has "scientific basis". Therefore you are a blind follower of Atheist Science.

You also falsley claim that Science does not make assertions without evidence when Atheist Science has made many baseless unsubstantiated assertions for example about the origin of life and how the first matter came into existence in the Universe. How we have "free will" when we are merely physical beings and many other fundamental questions that you will never have an answer for. Do you claim that Atheist Science has hard evidence for any of these things? Therefore your statement is fundamentally false and misleading and shows that you do not even know the basics of Science. So look into the principles of Science before following it blindly.

The atheist Science agenda does NOT "own" Science. Although you have taken Science as your religion it is not owned by the Scientists you blindly follow. In fact there are more Scientists that believe in a higher power than those who don't, but they do not have a media platform handed to them by the Atheist elite so they are not able to have a proper debate/discussion so people can judge whose arguments/theories etc has more basis.

Therefore do not claim to own something that is not yours. Science merely explains the natural processes created by God. They are essentially God's rules for Life. In fact believers in God are always in awe of his amazing creations the more we learn about natural processes and Science. Theist Scientists whom you obviously oppose because you hate everything "theist" have significantly more evidence to prove an "intelligent" design" theory than you have to prove a "random existence" theory. However you and other Atheists will never accept it no matter how much evidence there is not will there be widespread news of it in the media.

Stephen Hawking Admits Intelligent Design Is ‘Highly Probable’:

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/step...ghly-probable/

Renowned physicist finds PROOF of God: Universe was created by DESIGN in huge 'matrix'

https://www.express.co.uk/news/scien...al-Michio-Kaku

I have not insulted you nor have I taken the moral high ground. I merely refuted your baseless statements. If you are going to come here making baseless assertions then of course you are going to be refuted.

You claim to have "believed" previously but it is clear you never did have true belief nor the proper understanding of Islam and after some experiences of some sort, consequently arrogance took over your heart and now you follow Atheist Science as your religion. A religion which has absolutely no basis or "hard" evidence to answer the most important and which fundamental questions of our existence.

If you are so happy with your life decision then why do you feel the need to trawl through forums debating with "theists" as to their beliefs? Surely it is because deep down you are not content with what you believe and have developed an ingrained hatred for those who do believe.

This is a common trait of "Apostates" in that they are so hate filled that they will not just leave it there and get on with their lives but they feel the need to "drag" others down with them. When they consistently fail to do so, the hatred within them continues to grow until they get louder and louder in their disbelief.

I hope one day you overcome the arrogance in your heart in rejecting the one who created you and do not "judge" Islam by the behaviour and actions of its followers but instead learn about Islam properly and not from Anti Muslim websites but from established scholars of Islam.

May Allah guide all whom are in disbelief to the truth. Ameen

However you have your religion and we have ours. If you cannot be content with that then you are essentially doing exactly what Allah has stated in the Qur'an:

They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another).(4:89)

[AntiScimitar]

You still have not explained where "natural inclination" comes from. You dodged the question completely simply because you cannot explain it and have no answer to it just as you have no answer to the most fundamental questions of our existence.
No, I didn't dodge the question, I actually explained it in detail. In the natural world, it makes perfect sense that a mother would evolve traits to care for her child, as it would equip it with the traits necessary to survive. It's simple Darwinian evolution, "Natural inclination" isn't baffling. If you'd actually read what I said before saying, "HA WRONG." you would have read that.

Yes there are many cultural "norms" that come about in different societies in different era's but what is fundamental to all humans and animals is the natural inclination to love and care for off spring. This is not something that is "learnt". It is something innate in every living creature. On top of that so is the natural inclination to do good. These are things you can never refute and that which you will never be able to put at peace in your heart.

There's no such thing as, "cultural norms" in a natural world outside of society. Animals exhibit certain behavioral traits, because animals with these certain behavioral traits have a higher chance of surviving, which leads to offspring that then share these same behaviors. Nice straw man though.

If as you assert that everything moral is a social construct then why is "rape, murder" and every other evil thing not "morally accepted" by any society?
You just answered your own question. "Rape and murder" are "not accepted" by any society, but in the wilderness, were a tiger kills and eats a pig goes unnoticed, because of "society." Therefore morality is a social construct.

In Nazi Germany at the time it became "morally acceptable" to persecute, kill and main the Jews just like it is in Burmese society today with regards to the Rohingya. In your view because it is "morally acceptable" in these societies then it is "acceptable".
Yes, morality is a social construct is subjectively based off of the society that you were raised in. That's why Muslims don't like dogs, or that's why Japanese people aren't very religious. Or why Nazi's and KKK members hate Jews. Their morality is based entirely off of the society they were raised in, and have been exposed too.

That being said, you made a leap of faith there, when you said , "in your view, because it is (morally acceptable) in these societies, then it is acceptable." No, it is not acceptable with my own set of morals, but I'm saying that it would be considered "acceptable" in their society because morality is dependent on your society. Does that mean I approve of it? No, I don't recall ever giving my approval of that. I'm simply stating facts.

You claim you don't follow Science as it is a mere tool to explain natural processes but what is asserted by Atheist Scientists you will blindly believe just because it is "claimed" that a particular theory has "scientific basis". Therefore you are a blind follower of Atheist Science.
Once again, false. I don't blindly follow anyone. If the facts don't match up with their assertions, then it is false, therefore rejected. Once again though, most "Atheist Scientists" realize this, so they follow their claims with EVIDENCE. This is why peer review is a thing in the scientific world, to see if a theory and/or assertion is correct by independent testing. As in, if I released a study, other scientists would take this study and research it themselves to test it's validity.

You also falsley claim that Science does not make assertions without evidence when Atheist Science has made many baseless unsubstantiated assertions for example about the origin of life and how the first matter came into existence in the Universe. Do you claim that Atheist Science has actually got hard evidence for this? Therefore your statement is fundamentally false and misleading and shows that you do not even know the basics of Science. So look into the principles of Science before following it blindly.
No, this is also false. There's overwhelming evidence for the origin of life. The most current working theory would be the RNA world. If you want to know how the RNA got there to begin with, I would refer you to the Miller-Urey Experiment. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment)

The fact of the matter is that, there are working theories, but at this current day and age we simply just don't know, but are taking steps to figure it out as science advances. The thing is, we don't take, "We don't know, we're trying to figure it out" and say it was, "God." since we don't have any evidence leading towards, "God."

Atheist Science agenda does NOT "own" Science. Although you have taken Science as your religion it is not owned by those Scientists you blindly follow. In fact there are more Scients that believe in a higher power than those who don't but they do not have a media platform handed t them by the Atheist elite. Therefore do not claim to own something that is not yours. Science merely explains the natural processes created by God. In fact believers in God are always in awe of his amazing creations the more we learn Science. Theist Scientists whom you are obviously going to oppose because you hate everything "theist" have significantly more evidence to prove an "intelligent" design" theory than you have to prove a "random existence" theory.

I already said, I don't blindly follow "Atheist scientists". Stop saying that since it's simply false, and kind of offending. Atheism in it's essence is the absence of religion. I do not take science as my religion. Science is a tool that I can use to influence my worldview, but that does not mean that science is my religion. I have never claimed science as my religion.

Science merely explains the natural processes created by god, is a bold claim indeed. Especially since, no god has made a remarkable attempt of coming forward. That being said, Intelligent Design isn't a very remarkable worldview.

My problem with Intelligent Design is that it's simply not consistent with what we observe in our world. Intelligent Design is teleological, or goal orientated.

Everything has it's place in an intelligently designed world. Like how muslims believe that they were put on earth to worship god.

Another example, you could say that females have nipples for the purpose of feeding offspring.

But the fact is that not everything in this world has a purpose. Humans have vestigial organs that serve no function, like the appendix, or wisdom teeth. Or nipples on males, these don't serve a function.

One other thing that Intelligent Design would lead you too is a very centralized, hands on god. Except we have millions of gods and none of them have made an attempt to come forward. If they exist,of course.

Our world only gives the appearance of "intelligent design" through billions of years of natural process.


"In fact there are more Scients that believe in a higher power than those who don't but they do not have a media platform handed t them by the Atheist elite"
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. This is also a straw man. That being said, there have been many debates between religious scientists and nonreligious ones. For instance this one right here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FyBk_GU1hY
or this one right here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZubEuiy5aLc

I have not insulted you nor have I taken the moral high ground. I have merely refuted your baseless statements. If you are going to come here making baseless assertions then of course you are going to be refuted.
I haven't made a single baseless statement. Whereas you have made a plethora of baseless statements. From saying that, "Science is essentially a contradictory and ever changing amalgamation of theories and hypothesis much of which do not have any factual basisTo, Atheist scientists spreading lies across society and in schools!

You claim to have "believed" previously but it is clear you never did have true belief nor the proper understanding of Islam and consequently arrogance took over your heart and now you follow Atheist Science as your religion which fails fundamentally to explain the origins of life.

That's a no true Scotsman fallacy, and I would say that I, as a muslim who moved to Saudi Arabia when I was 10, learned the language, memorized quran, and went too an a program to become an Imam, I have a lot of experience with your religion, it WAS my religion once.

If you are so happy with your life decision then why do you feel the need to travel forums debating with "theists" as to their beliefs? It is because deep down you are not content with what you believe and have developed an ingrained hatred for those that do believe. This is a common trait of "Apostates" in that they are so hate filled that they will not just leave it there and get on with their lives but they feel the need to "drag" others down with them. When they consistently fail to the hatred within them continues to grow until they get louder and louder in their disbelief.

No, I'd have to say that I am very content with my life as an atheist. That being said, I also think that one's worldview should be contended to actually matter. If you hold an opinion, you should be able to defend it, and argue for the other side.

I don't hate you. My parents are muslim and I still live with them. The fact is that I don't agree with your ideology. There's no, "Dragging down" with atheism. I don't "hate" religion, I simply don't believe in it. But, you are basically giving me the textbook, muslim response to criticism, so I don't really mind.

I hope one day you overcome the arrogance in your heart in rejecting the one who created you and do not "judge" Islam by the behaviour and actions of its followers but instead learn about Islam properly and not from Anti Muslim websites but from established scholars of Islam.

I think it's arrogant of you to assume that your religion is the "correct one" and that I'm rejecting the one who, "created me."

I think it's funny how you direct me towards, "established scholars of Islam" when you condemned me to, "blindly follow atheist scientists" just a couple paragraphs up.

Are you blindly following Islamic Scholars? Of course not, if one of them said something against the quran, or sunnah, you wouldn't agree with them. At the same time, if a scientist said something unscientific, I wouldn't agree with it.


May Allah guide all whom are in disbelief to the truth. Ameen
Maybe if Allah wasn't so focused on punishing the disbelievers, and actually decided to reveal himself, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I mean, can we take a moment and realize that prophets, holy books, and miracles are literally pointless? When you have an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever present being that can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants? I'm pretty sure it says, "كون فيكون" in your holy book.

If God wanted to actually reveal himself, he could. Or if he actually wanted disbelievers to follow him, he could. Especially since God would know exactly what it would take for a disbeliever to believe. I don't think that an all knowing, all powerful god would be satisfied with the Quran, or the Bible, or the Torah for that matter.




However you have your religion and we have ours. If you cannot be content with that then you are essentially doing exactly what Allah has stated in the Qur'an:

Almighty Allah says: They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another).(4:89)
That is false. I honestly don't care if you decide to reject your faith or not. I'm being 100% with you.

The fact of the matter is that your religion propagates a book without error, and a prophet of the highest moral standing, when it's simply not true. Therefore here I am.

[air]

Wow, you really have that, "Checkmate Atheist" feel to you.

Right off the bat, you assuming that atheists are "lost" is very naive. It is naive of you to assume that someone bases their morals entirely off of the scientific method, because that's not how the world works. Science is understanding of the natural world. It's not, "understanding why I should have enough human decency not to kill someone."
The fact of the matter is that, morality is a social construct, and that humans have been socially selected to value certain trains and behaviors. For instance, murder is considered "bad" wherever you go. Could you argue that religion set the first standards of morality, sure. I would argue that society as a whole has contributed more to the morality sections of our lives than religionever did.

I don't know which post you are referring to, why do I feel that your post mean science = atheist, and since atheist is science, it has nothing to do with morality (I'm confused). As far as I know, atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities (wiki), because the existence of God can't be proved, and not science = atheist.

Murder is bad for most society, but not all.

If you can't look past your outdated book for teachings on morality, then you're probably the lost one here, because if you can't imagine morals without your book, what would you be doing right now without it?

Outdated book for teachings on morality? All things that do not change do not mean outdated, it can also mean solid. You're right we are lost soul and that's the purpose of Holy Qur'an, to guide us.

And I don't know that morality can be updated, what is the latest update of morality? Is the current human behavior related with morals different from the behavior of past humans?

Society as a whole has contributed more to the morality sections of our lives than religion ever did? On the past, religions are against immorality, and the result, now the religious society is larger than the non-religious, which mean the society of religious people is the largest contributor of today morality.

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

The fact of the matter is that your religion propagates a book without error, and a prophet of the highest moral standing, when it's simply not true. Therefore here I am.

BUT It is true. The state of your eeman or lack thereof is called spiritual blindness. In writing your posts, you forget one important fact known and taught to almost every kid born into Islam: God gives guidance only to those who desire/seek that guidance. (Knowing Arabic or having lived in Saudi Arabia for any length of time is not any guarantee of guidance just as speaking Sentinelese and living in parts unknown in a remote village inaccessible to most human population is not a guarantee of not receiving guidance.)

Best Wishes, because you'll need it trying to fill that God-shaped blank in your heart with anything other than God, *former atheist's acquired wisdom*,

[MuhammadHamza1]

Firstly.
You do not need to fear being killed if you are an apostate since there is no khilafah.Those Muslims,who leave Islam,when they live in the territory which is part of Khilafah,are the ones who are executed.There is no khilafah now.
Secondly.
The apostate is not killed on first notice.
You said freedom.Yes.The apostate is brought to scholors who answer his concerns.The apostate tells the scholors his reasons for leaving Islam,and the Scholors answer it.
If you had your questions rightly answered and you realized that you were wrong on matters which led to our apostacy,A rational person will come back to Islam.The insincere ones will leave Islam.Even after their Questions and concerns which led to their apostacy,have been answered,they still insist on leaving Islam.What does that mean?
It means that they are not sincere.And these insincere people,through their actions and morals,are a threat to other Muslims.Hence,they are killed.After the Apostate has been referred to the scholors,who have answered his Questions,he is given three days to reconsider.He is not killed immediately.

[AntiScimitar]

BUT It is true. The state of your eeman or lack thereof is called spiritual blindness. In writing your posts, you forget one important fact known and taught to almost every kid born into Islam: God gives guidance only to those who desire/seek that guidance. (Knowing Arabic or having lived in Saudi Arabia for any length of time is not any guarantee of guidance just as speaking Sentinelese and living in parts unknown in a remote village inaccessible to most human population is not a guarantee of not receiving guidance.)
No, insisting that your book is perfect and true, doesn't make it perfect and true. The same applies to your prophet. Especially when you guys tote around a geocentric, and just generally unscientific book.

That being said, you actually made a pretty good argument against god right there. If Islam were true, it wouldn't need you, or any دعئ to spread it, in fact, if your religion were true, people could reach the conclusion of Islam naturally, regardless of demographic, or where they're from.

But that isn't what we're seeing with the world... In fact, I would say that your demographic entirely determines your religion. Opposite of what you would like to believe. People from Saudi are Muslim, and people from some remote location in the world haven't received, "Guidance".

It's almost as if they believe their own religion valid and 100% true :nervous:

We see this consistently everywhere. People in america are generally christian, people from Japan are usually nonreligious, Mexico has a large catholic population, ect.

Also, I don't "NEED" something to fill the god-shaped hole in my heart, simply because I don't "HAVE" a god shaped hole in my heart. Just because that was your own experience with atheism, doesn't mean that it was mine.

- - - Updated - - -

BUT It is true. The state of your eeman or lack thereof is called spiritual blindness. In writing your posts, you forget one important fact known and taught to almost every kid born into Islam: God gives guidance only to those who desire/seek that guidance. (Knowing Arabic or having lived in Saudi Arabia for any length of time is not any guarantee of guidance just as speaking Sentinelese and living in parts unknown in a remote village inaccessible to most human population is not a guarantee of not receiving guidance.)
No, insisting that your book is perfect and true, doesn't make it perfect and true. The same applies to your prophet. Especially when you guys tote around a geocentric, and just generally unscientific book.

That being said, you actually made a pretty good argument against god right there. If Islam were true, it wouldn't need you, or any دعئ to spread it, in fact, if your religion were true, people could reach the conclusion of Islam naturally, regardless of demographic, or where they're from.

But that isn't what we're seeing with the world... In fact, I would say that your demographic entirely determines your religion. Opposite of what you would like to believe. People from Saudi are Muslim, and people from some remote location in the world haven't received, "Guidance".

It's almost as if they believe their own religion valid and 100% true :nervous:

We see this consistently everywhere. People in america are generally christian, people from Japan are usually nonreligious, Mexico has a large catholic population, ect.

Also, I don't "NEED" something to fill the god-shaped hole in my heart, simply because I don't "HAVE" a god shaped hole in my heart. Just because that was your own experience with atheism, doesn't mean that it was mine.

[MuhammadHamza1]

Secondly.
You mentioned Freedom.
I will tell you something very important.Which many Muslims do not realize.
Take my example.
I LIVE WITH APOSTATES.
My Father went for Hajj,Pilgrimage,and then afterwards,when he returned back,he left the 5 daily prayers.
According to correct Scholarly opinion,the one who does not pray,is out of the fold of Islam.
My mother went for Hajj too,she still prayes.But she does many other things which takes one beyond the pale of Islam.Like listening to soothsayers as well as believing in many superstitions.
My brothers and sisters,when the month of Ramadan comes,Start praying and fast,but when Ramadan ends,They resort back and do not pray any longer.The enter Islam in Ramadan,but leave it afterwards.Thet leave prayers.Which makes them an apostate.
Now.Only I know what I have gone through at the hands of these people.I have been mocked,ridiculed,forced to do things I do not want to.
They tried to force me to do things which go against Islam.They hurt me deeply.
Am I not free to practice my religion?
What is the matter with these people?
No.It is their hearts.Apostates are the ones who take away your freedom.
And this case is not specefic to me.
I have read many other Muslims complaining about this thing.
What is this?
Apostates are the ones who take away religious freedom.You can search up the internet to witness the Muslims complaining about the same thing.
This reminds me of the verse of Noah,Peace and blessings be upon him.

"And Noah said, "My Lord, do not leave upon the earth from among the disbelievers an inhabitant.

Indeed, if You leave them, they will mislead Your servants and not beget except [every] wicked one and [confirmed] disbeliever." Al-Quran 71:26-27.

Notice the words "They will mislead your servants."

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Secondly.
You mentioned Freedom.
I will tell you something very important.Which many Muslims do not realize.
Take my example.
I LIVE WITH APOSTATES.
My Father went for Hajj,Pilgrimage,and then afterwards,when he returned back,he left the 5 daily prayers.
According to correct Scholarly opinion,the one who does not pray,is out of the fold of Islam.
My mother went for Hajj too,she still prayes.But she does many other things which takes one beyond the pale of Islam.Like listening to soothsayers as well as believing in many superstitions.
My brothers and sisters,when the month of Ramadan comes,Start praying and fast,but when Ramadan ends,They resort back and do not pray any longer.The enter Islam in Ramadan,but leave it afterwards.Thet leave prayers.Which makes them an apostate.
Now.Only I know what I have gone through at the hands of these people.I have been mocked,ridiculed,forced to do things I do not want to.
They tried to force me to do things which go against Islam.They hurt me deeply.
Am I not free to practice my religion?
What is the matter with these people?
No.It is their hearts.Apostates are the ones who take away your freedom.
And this case is not specefic to me.
I have read many other Muslims complaining about this thing.
What is this?
Apostates are the ones who take away religious freedom.You can search up the internet to witness the Muslims complaining about the same thing.
This reminds me of the verse of Noah,Peace and blessings be upon him.

"And Noah said, "My Lord, do not leave upon the earth from among the disbelievers an inhabitant.

Indeed, if You leave them, they will mislead Your servants and not beget except [every] wicked one and [confirmed] disbeliever." Al-Quran 71:26-27.

Notice the words "They will mislead your servants."

[AntiScimitar]

Firstly.
You do not need to fear being killed if you are an apostate since there is no khilafah.Those Muslims,who leave Islam,when they live in the territory which is part of Khilafah,are the ones who are executed.There is no khilafah now.
Secondly.
The apostate is not killed on first notice.
You said freedom.Yes.The apostate is brought to scholors who answer his concerns.The apostate tells the scholors his reasons for leaving Islam,and the Scholors answer it.
If you had your questions rightly answered and you realized that you were wrong on matters which led to our apostacy,A rational person will come back to Islam.The insincere ones will leave Islam.Even after their Questions and concerns which led to their apostacy,have been answered,they still insist on leaving Islam.What does that mean?
It means that they are not sincere.And these insincere people,through their actions and morals,are a threat to other Muslims.Hence,they are killed.After the Apostate has been referred to the scholors,who have answered his Questions,he is given three days to reconsider.He is not killed immediately.

I honestly can't believe that you're trying to JUSTIFY apostates being executed. All from your self conceived, "threat" to islam. The truth is that killing apostate is just a form of heavy censorship religions like this one use to stay afloat. It stands to be that you shouldn't be killed for apostasy, especially if you make your views public about this religion. The state of mind needed to, "See things as a threat to the religion" is the exact type of crowd mentality that furthered me leaving this religion to begin with.

Most countries have religious freedom, but the arab countries are seriously far behind.. I won't say all of them, but Saudi, Egypt, and Qatar are the main contenders. Maybe if they didn't kill and/or jail every single religious or political dissenter that came from their country, they would be nicer places.

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Firstly.
You do not need to fear being killed if you are an apostate since there is no khilafah.Those Muslims,who leave Islam,when they live in the territory which is part of Khilafah,are the ones who are executed.There is no khilafah now.
Secondly.
The apostate is not killed on first notice.
You said freedom.Yes.The apostate is brought to scholors who answer his concerns.The apostate tells the scholors his reasons for leaving Islam,and the Scholors answer it.
If you had your questions rightly answered and you realized that you were wrong on matters which led to our apostacy,A rational person will come back to Islam.The insincere ones will leave Islam.Even after their Questions and concerns which led to their apostacy,have been answered,they still insist on leaving Islam.What does that mean?
It means that they are not sincere.And these insincere people,through their actions and morals,are a threat to other Muslims.Hence,they are killed.After the Apostate has been referred to the scholors,who have answered his Questions,he is given three days to reconsider.He is not killed immediately.

I honestly can't believe that you're trying to JUSTIFY apostates being executed. All from your self conceived, "threat" to islam. The truth is that killing apostate is just a form of heavy censorship religions like this one use to stay afloat. It stands to be that you shouldn't be killed for apostasy, especially if you make your views public about this religion. The state of mind needed to, "See things as a threat to the religion" is the exact type of crowd mentality that furthered me leaving this religion to begin with.

Most countries have religious freedom, but the arab countries are seriously far behind.. I won't say all of them, but Saudi, Egypt, and Qatar are the main contenders. Maybe if they didn't kill and/or jail every single religious or political dissenter that came from their country, they would be nicer places.

[MuhammadHamza1]

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
"Allah gives guidance to those who seek it."
What it means is that if you sincerely seek guidance,God will reward you for your sincerity.
Secondly.
"It is almost as if they believe their own religion is valid and 100% true."
What this implies is that people generally consider that religion to be the ultimate truth,which they are taught in their childhood.
That is why,The Quran is the only book,which encourages CRITICAL THINKING.
IT does not say just believe.It says that YOU DO YOUR RESEARCH,THINK CRITICALLY,ASK CRITICAL QUESTIONS,INSPECT EVERY ELEMENT,AND THEN BELIEVE.BECAUSE SUCH PROCESS WILL LEAD YOU TO TRUTH RIGHT?AND THE TRUTH FEARS NO INVESTIGATION.
Hence,The Quran says:
" Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?" 47:24
Here,The Quran is encouraging critical thinking.
"When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?" (Surah Al-Baqara, 170)

"What their forefathers can also mean,the religion in which they are born to.Since,They follow the religion of their parents and consider it to be the ultimate truth.
You mentioned "God-Shaped hole" in the heart.Then,this is your answer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8510711/Belief-in-God-is-part-of-human-nature-Oxford-study.html:skeleton:

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Just answer my question.
Do you think that a person who goes out of the fold of Islam,even when the reasons and his arguments,which lead to his apostacy have been debunked by the scholors,is sincere and is a rational being?

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[quote=AntiScimitar;2979857]I honestly can't believe that you're trying to JUSTIFY apostates being executed. All from your self conceived, "threat" to islam. The truth is that killing apostate is just a form of heavy censorship religions like this one use to stay afloat. It stands to be that you shouldn't be killed for apostasy, especially if you make your views public about this religion. The state of mind needed to, "See things as a threat to the religion" is the exact type of crowd mentality that furthered me leaving this religion to begin with.

Most countries have religious freedom, but the arab countries are seriously far behind.. I won't say all of them, but Saudi, Egypt, and Qatar are the main contenders. Maybe if they didn't kill and/or jail every single religious or political dissenter that came from their country, they would be nicer places.[/quote

Just answer my question.
Do you think that a person who goes out of the fold of Islam,even when the reasons and his arguments,which lead to his apostacy have been debunked by the scholors,is sincere and is a rational being?

[AntiScimitar]

I can honestly relate to your situation. Except it's the exact opposite. My parents are muslim, and I live with them. When I told them about my views on their religion, I was punished, my life was made hell. I was cut off from friends, and I was shunned until I re-entered the religion. Honestly, I doubt either of our situations will improve the way we want them too until we move out. If my kids decide to become religious, would I put them through this situation? Hell no. I relate to the mockery, and the ridicule, and the punishment.

It's not apostates who take away your freedom, but it's people without tolerance that take freedom away. Like your family, and mine.

[Scimitar]

seems I've picked up a fan :D tut tut

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Atheist Agrees "You Cannot Deny God"

[AntiScimitar]

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
"Allah gives guidance to those who seek it."
What it means is that if you sincerely seek guidance,God will reward you for your sincerity.
Secondly.
"It is almost as if they believe their own religion is valid and 100% true."
What this implies is that people generally consider that religion to be the ultimate truth,which they are taught in their childhood.
That is why,The Quran is the only book,which encourages CRITICAL THINKING.
IT does not say just believe.It says that YOU DO YOUR RESEARCH,THINK CRITICALLY,ASK CRITICAL QUESTIONS,INSPECT EVERY ELEMENT,AND THEN BELIEVE.BECAUSE SUCH PROCESS WILL LEAD YOU TO TRUTH RIGHT?AND THE TRUTH FEARS NO INVESTIGATION.
Hence,The Quran says:
" Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?" 47:24
Here,The Quran is encouraging critical thinking.
"When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?" (Surah Al-Baqara, 170)

"What their forefathers can also mean,the religion in which they are born to.Since,They follow the religion of their parents and consider it to be the ultimate truth.
You mentioned "God-Shaped hole" in the heart.Then,this is your answer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ord-study.html:skeleton:


I would argue that Islam does not promote critical thinking. In fact, there's heavy censorship on anything anti-islamic in the countries of egypt, Saudi, and qatar.
It even says in the quran, on

9:4: Excepted are those whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient towards you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their term. [has ended] Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [Who fear Him.]

And that's honestly okay, complete your treaty with polytheists, no harm no foul. Until the next verse

9:5: And wjen the inviolable months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you ind them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait or them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakat, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is forgiving and Merciful.

I would call this the antitheses of forgiving and merciful. I would call it blood thirst and vengeful. I can understand attacking your enemies, but attacking those who have had your good faith for a while isn't very merciful at all. I think that's the "critical thinking skills" that your religion has to offer.

In a verse addressing apostates directly, in

4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away then sieze them and kill them wherever you find them and not take from among them any ally or helper.

It continues in 4:91
You will find others who wish too obtain security from you and obtain security from their peoeple. Every time they are returned to disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And thos we have made for you against them a clear authorization.

Too me, it doesn't look like your book preaches critical thinking at all. It's either, you're with us or against us. Join our religion or DIE. The reason why you have contradictory verses, like 47:20 and 4:91, is because of the change of power that happened to Muhammad and his companions. They went from peasant merchants, to rulers and kings. The quran reflects that when it starts calling for death instead of critical thinking.

- - - Updated - - -or he
Just answer my question.
Do you think that a person who goes out of the fold of Islam,even when the reasons and his arguments,which lead to his apostacy have been debunked by the scholors,is sincere and is a rational being?

I would say that they're probably asking the wrong questions about their religion. Yes, generally I would consider someone in this scenario irrational. But, the fact of the matter is that I have never been approached by a muslim, or anyone religious for that matter, with something so profound I entered the fold of the religion again.


- - - Updated - - -

I saw my post wasn't linked as a reply, so I'm making sure you got it.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
"Allah gives guidance to those who seek it."
What it means is that if you sincerely seek guidance,God will reward you for your sincerity.
Secondly.
"It is almost as if they believe their own religion is valid and 100% true."
What this implies is that people generally consider that religion to be the ultimate truth,which they are taught in their childhood.
That is why,The Quran is the only book,which encourages CRITICAL THINKING.
IT does not say just believe.It says that YOU DO YOUR RESEARCH,THINK CRITICALLY,ASK CRITICAL QUESTIONS,INSPECT EVERY ELEMENT,AND THEN BELIEVE.BECAUSE SUCH PROCESS WILL LEAD YOU TO TRUTH RIGHT?AND THE TRUTH FEARS NO INVESTIGATION.
Hence,The Quran says:
" Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?" 47:24
Here,The Quran is encouraging critical thinking.
"When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?" (Surah Al-Baqara, 170)

"What their forefathers can also mean,the religion in which they are born to.Since,They follow the religion of their parents and consider it to be the ultimate truth.
You mentioned "God-Shaped hole" in the heart.Then,this is your answer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ord-study.html:skeleton:


I would argue that Islam does not promote critical thinking. In fact, there's heavy censorship on anything anti-islamic in the countries of egypt, Saudi, and qatar.
It even says in the quran, on

9:4: Excepted are those whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient towards you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their term. [has ended] Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [Who fear Him.]

And that's honestly okay, complete your treaty with polytheists, no harm no foul. Until the next verse

9:5: And wjen the inviolable months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you ind them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait or them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakat, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is forgiving and Merciful.

I would call this the antitheses of forgiving and merciful. I would call it blood thirst and vengeful. I can understand attacking your enemies, but attacking those who have had your good faith for a while isn't very merciful at all. I think that's the "critical thinking skills" that your religion has to offer.

In a verse addressing apostates directly, in

4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away then sieze them and kill them wherever you find them and not take from among them any ally or helper.

It continues in 4:91
You will find others who wish too obtain security from you and obtain security from their peoeple. Every time they are returned to disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And thos we have made for you against them a clear authorization.

Too me, it doesn't look like your book preaches critical thinking at all. It's either, you're with us or against us. Join our religion or DIE. The reason why you have contradictory verses, like 47:20 and 4:91, is because of the change of power that happened to Muhammad and his companions. They went from peasant merchants, to rulers and kings. The quran reflects that when it starts calling for death instead of critical thinking.

- - - Updated - - -or he
Just answer my question.
Do you think that a person who goes out of the fold of Islam,even when the reasons and his arguments,which lead to his apostacy have been debunked by the scholors,is sincere and is a rational being?

I would say that they're probably asking the wrong questions about their religion. Yes, generally I would consider someone in this scenario irrational. But, the fact of the matter is that I have never been approached by a muslim, or anyone religious for that matter, with something so profound I entered the fold of the religion again.

[Scimitar]

I would argue that Islam does not promote critical thinking. In fact, there's heavy censorship on anything anti-islamic in the countries of egypt, Saudi, and qatar.

Keep arguing :) we'll keep munching popcorn

Just answer my question.
Do you think that a person who goes out of the fold of Islam,even when the reasons and his arguments,which lead to his apostacy have been debunked by the scholors,is sincere and is a rational being?

I would say that they're probably asking the wrong questions about their religion. Yes, generally I would consider someone in this scenario irrational. But, the fact of the matter is that I have never been approached by a muslim, or anyone religious for that matter, with something so profound I entered the fold of the religion again.

God does not guide the insincere people - which would mean - you are not chosen to be guided.

Of course, you can prove me wrong by accepting Islam as your faith in sincerity, and worshipping Allah, but if it's insincere then you become an hypocrite.

Also, your natural position as of now, is one of atheism... but you might just be misotheist.

peace

[AntiScimitar]

It's funny, how you never replied or said anything against my assertions and/or verses that talked about death and the killing of apostates. But you still have that, "Checkmate atheist" feel to you.

[Scimitar]

It's funny, how you never replied or said anything against my assertions and/or verses that talked about death and the killing of apostates. But you still have that, "Checkmate atheist" feel to you.

what you've ranted is typical atheist drivel, that's why.

I think you're a misotheist. Not an atheist!

[AntiScimitar]

It's not typical "atheist drivel" as much as it is you ignoring blatant problems with your religion, and muslims as a whole. You will ignore facts when they are right in front of your face, and aren't very concerned with the idea of discussion. It's funny how you blame atheists for that, calling them "irrational" for doing things like this, but here's an atheist RIGHT in front of you who wants a discussion. It seems very irrational of you.

[Scimitar]

It's not typical "atheist drivel" as much as it is you ignoring blatant problems with your religion, and muslims as a whole. You will ignore facts when they are right in front of your face, and aren't very concerned with the idea of discussion. It's funny how you blame atheists for that, calling them "irrational" for doing things like this, but here's an atheist RIGHT in front of you who wants a discussion. It seems very irrational of you.

Name me a fact? The competing theories from the evolutionary models, which number 6?

The fact that you don't have a clue about the actual origins of this universe based on empiricism?

The fact that you use linguistic gymnastics which do not even appeal to sanity in order to push theories as supposedly well established fact?

your hubris is cute, but it's also cliche. Which makes it the same tired drivel.

One more fact, i've clearly rattled your cage for you to join here with an handle like "AntiScimitar" :D you got my attention, but i'm disappointed in your rhetoric!

[AntiScimitar]

Name me a fact? The competing theories from the evolutionary models, which number 6?
I would say that the most recognized theory of evolution would probably be Darwin's and that of natural selection.

The fact that you don't have a clue about the actual origins of this universe based on empiricism?
I don't think that empiricism is a a good stance for discerning the origins of the universe, since what judaic-christian religious would tell us intelligent design, but what we observe in our world isn't anything remotely close to intelligent design. It also leads to a "leap of faith" if you will on your part. First you have to assert god, then you have to actually prove WHICH god. The jump to the Ihe judaic-chritian god is just as viable as the Buddhist god.

The fact that you use linguistic gymnastics which do not even appeal to sanity in order to push theories as supposedly well established fact?
I don't use linguistic gymnastics, every question anyone has ever asked me has been answered or rebutted head on. Nail and hammer.
To further this, I would say that you've employed a lot more linguistic gymnastics than I have, especially since you can't seem to talk about those awful verses in your holy scripture.

your hubris is cute, but it's also cliche. Which makes it the same tired drivel.
I think that your constant spew of ad hominem would say more about your hubris than mine, friend

One more fact, i've clearly rattled your cage for you to join here with an handle like "AntiScimitar" :D you got my attention, but i'm disappointed in your rhetoric!
No, I chose the moniker AntiScimitar because I figured it would be the best way to get your attention. Put something up in your face that you honestly can't ignore. Seems to be working. :nervous:

[Scimitar]

Name me a fact? The competing theories from the evolutionary models, which number 6?
I would say that the most recognized theory of evolution would probably be Darwin's and that of natural selection.

Darwin himself didn't believe in his own theory lol.

But let's put that to the side for now and investigate the fallacy which is called dawrinism:



Did you catch Aron Ra's lie? He got stick for that from the scientific community, in case you didn't know!

But let's not move past your claim that evolution is a fact - it has clearly been proven that it is not a "fact".

The fact that you don't have a clue about the actual origins of this universe based on empiricism?
I don't think that empiricism is a a good stance for discerning the origins of the universe, since what judaic-christian religious would tell us intelligent design, but what we observe in our world isn't anything remotely close to intelligent design. It also leads to a "leap of faith" if you will on your part. First you have to assert god, then you have to actually prove WHICH god. The jump to the Ihe judaic-chritian god is just as viable as the Buddhist god.

We don't even claim that, you got it wrong. Our position is axiomatic. God exists and we know this! Simple. We don't have to use any method to prove God exists, when there are signs all around us but only discernible to those who have a sound intellect. Not trying to belittle your one trick pony argument, but your hubris remains highly unjustified by the bar you yourself set as someone who holds "science" as his method for understanding his existence. The fallacy appears in the fact that before the revival of the scientific method, you would claim no one could work out their raison d'etre. Funny thing is, I don't see an example of this from history because people were not having existential crisis due to their investment in their belief in God.

The fact that you use linguistic gymnastics which do not even appeal to sanity in order to push theories as supposedly well established fact?
I don't use linguistic gymnastics, every question anyone has ever asked me has been answered or rebutted head on. Nail and hammer.
To further this, I would say that you've employed a lot more linguistic gymnastics than I have, especially since you can't seem to talk about those awful verses in your holy scripture.

You're about to claim ad hominem aren't ya? I can see it, because you are a typical misotheist. That's no ad hominem, that's a factual observation! You don't have to like it, but the truth is never convenient. I would know, I used to be an apostate and atheist in my late teens to mid twenties!

Let me explain, for the purpose of clarifying to you, what a misotheist is - it's someone who claims he or she is an atheist, but actually beleives God exists yet hates God - thus, they spend their time attempting to refute the reason for God.

What's cute, is the fact that you can't admit this.

your hubris is cute, but it's also cliche. Which makes it the same tired drivel.
I think that your constant spew of ad hominem would say more about your hubris than mine, friend

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, I'm not your "friend"... your repetitive drivel oft pops up on this forum if you do a search. Previous members who identified with atheism spewed the same nonsense... one or two are still regular members but they, in their honesty, wanted to learn about Islam so they do not "straw man" a Muslim. I can respect that! You on the other hand, I cannot! You're full of straw men!

One more fact, i've clearly rattled your cage for you to join here with an handle like "AntiScimitar" :D you got my attention, but i'm disappointed in your rhetoric!
No, I chose the moniker AntiScimitar because I figured it would be the best way to get your attention. Put something up in your face that you honestly can't ignore. Seems to be working. :nervous:

Yeah, you got my attention, but it was short lived - now you're just boring me!

Bring me a fresh argument, something that hasn't been debunked already! If I respond, it will be because I got excited - but if I don't, know this - you didn't try hard enough!

peace

[AntiScimitar]

Darwin himself didn't believe in his own theory Whether or not darwin believed in god, doesn't have anything to say about his theories.

But let's put that to the side for now and investigate the fallacy which is called dawrinism
Is that why it took you so long to reply? Because you had to look through a two hour video to it? For your red herring too? Nah. But, I will watch it when I have two hours down time.

We don't even claim that, you got it wrong. Our position is axiomatic. God exists and we know this! Simple. We don't have to use any method to prove God exists, when there are signs all around us but only discernible to those who have a sound intellect. Not trying to belittle your one trick pony argument, but your hubris remains highly unjustified by the bar you yourself set as someone who holds "science" as his method for understanding his existence. The fallacy appears in the fact that before the revival of the scientific method, you would claim no one could work out their reason d'etre. Funny thing is, I don't see an example of this from history because people were not having existential crisis due to their investment in their belief in God.

Like, I said earlier, saying that god is self evident isn't a good position at all. I think that you think your position is axiomatic, as a direct result of the world and how it's evolved around you. You say, "Look it's so perfect! Must be god." This train of thought doesn't lead to any questions. That's my problem with it. It leads to a self-evident fallacy.

It's not interested in looking for the actual origin, you'll just end up stuck on god. Also, you who identifies as a Muslim HAS to believe in the Judaic-christian god, while others can claim their own personal god. While the assertion of an axiomatic world only inserts, "God."

I think I would argue that the scientific method is a separate entity from d'etre. Since d'etre by definition is a reason to live, and the scientific method is a tool used to align your experiments. Science is a tool to discern the truth, it isn't interested in things like a reason to live.

Your cute little thought revolution video is nice, but it's an appeal to consequences. Meaning, that it doesn't actually discuss the validity of your position, rather it quite simply talks about it's desirability. Therefore, it's rejected.

You're about to claim ad hominem aren't ya? I can see it, because you are a typical misotheist. That's no ad hominem, that's a factual observation! You don't have to like it, but the truth is never convenient. I would know, I used to be an apostate and atheist in my late teens to mid twenties!
I think you probably thought this looked nice, but you can't say, "CALLED IT" on a forum, since you have to actually READ before you can make a response. I would call Ad Hominem on things such as saying that I'm full of hubris, saying that I spew drivel, ect. Attacks on character and not the actual arguments themselves basically.

Let me explain, for the purpose of clarifying to you, what a misotheist is - it's someone who claims he or she is an atheist, but actually beleives God exists yet hates God - thus, they spend their time attempting to refute the reason for God.

What's cute, is the fact that you can't admit this

I know what a misotheist is, but I wouldn't call myself one. Quite simply, because I genuinely don't spend my time of the day, going to every single Islamic forum on the internet refuting god. I happened to stumble across this one, I decided to make my stances known, and I'm generally having a lot of fun doing it. But sadly, this is also another red herring since it doesn't actually have anything to do with your position on an axiomatic world.


Yeah, you got my attention, but it was short lived - now you're just boring me!

Bring me a fresh argument, something that hasn't been debunked already! If I respond, it will be because I got excited - but if I don't, know this - you didn't try hard enough!
I have a feeling that you're going to respond. Quite simply because you don't like the idea of someone having an opinion contrary to yours.

[Zafran]

I can honestly relate to your situation. Except it's the exact opposite. My parents are muslim, and I live with them. When I told them about my views on their religion, I was punished, my life was made hell. I was cut off from friends, and I was shunned until I re-entered the religion. Honestly, I doubt either of our situations will improve the way we want them too until we move out. If my kids decide to become religious, would I put them through this situation? Hell no. I relate to the mockery, and the ridicule, and the punishment.

It's not apostates who take away your freedom, but it's people without tolerance that take freedom away. Like your family, and mine.

Dude you got family issues - coming to IB isn't going to solve your problem and lashing out with boring atheist claims is not going to make your situation any better. You need to plan long term.

Even if all of us agreed with you, which is futile as your like the millionth atheist to make the same claims - your still going to be in the same place.

peace

[Scimitar]

AntiScimitar - You've bored me. These are all very regurgitated attempts at sounding clever but doing you no favours here. Do yourself a favour, get educated! Become interesting, and do a better job of "not believing in God" because far as I can tell - you believe in God, but you just don't want to! You're a misotheist ;)

Peace

[AntiScimitar]

Wait, I thought if I bore you, you weren't going to reply? Called it.
And am I the one trying to sound smart? When the minute your weak argument falls apart, you claim that I'm boring you? Telling me to, "Get Educated" seems to be advice you should apply to yourself.
But of course, you could prove me wrong by actually tying to have a discussion.

And no, under no circumstance will I ever believe in god. Me being an atheist/misotheist isn't relevant to this discussion whatsoever.


- - - Updated - - -

No, it's fine. I'm moving out in March actually, back to a country where I'm TOTALLY free to be an apostate.

[Futuwwa]

So when are you two annihilating each other?

[Scimitar]

So when are you two annihilating each other?

Say what? :D

Bro, chill. the guy has run off... they always do!

[air]

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيم

I'm saying that people don't do things that animals do, because we are humans. Our societies have RULES, through many years of social selection. Criminals are "selected" out by going to jail (or whatever punishment is due in your society.) It even adds as incentive to not do, "Bad" things. You certainly don't need a religion to tell you right from wrong buddy.

People do things that animal do!

You claim that our societies have rules, are you sure it's our? societies have different opinions about rules, every society is likely to have differences of opinion in categorizing what is good and what is bad. For us, religion is the chosen rules of our society, so your rules is your rules while ours is ours, and you can't tell us why we should not follow what we think is right.

You are very right, we follow morals set by our society and/or worldview. Because it's a social construct.
I don't "follow" science. Science is a tool to explain the natural world, but it can't explain how you'll chose to live your life.
To clarify, there are things I know and believe (Like how the earth orbits around the sun) because it's backed by EVIDENCE. That doesn't mean that I "follow" science it just means that it's a tool that explains the world around me. It's entirely up to me to make my own assertions.

My main contention with you, thus far, is the idea that you need to, "Follow" something. Make your own choices about life.

The statement that, "Science is essentially a contradictory and ever changing amalgamation of theories and hypothesis which do nothing have any factual basis." is entirely false. Plain and simple. Science aims for measurable results through testing and analysis.
The fact is, unlike religion, science doesn't make assertions without EVIDENCE.
A lot of theists toss around, "theory" and "hypothesis" interchangeably, but a theory is one of the highest honors something can receive in the scientific world, that's because "theories" are only found through constant testing and observation. In fact, the scientific method calls for repeated experimentation until the observation is indistinguishable from the theory.

Theist scientists in nature are biased. It's not a scientist's JOB to tell you whether or not you should believe in your god. It's a scientist's job to inform others so they can understand, and make conclusions of the natural world. That being said, a theist scientist first and foremost will always try to prove their god. This of course leads to discrepancies that can be contended.

It's statements like, this above me. Is why I'm here. For one, "Atheist Science" is simply "Science". That's because Science's job isn't to prove or disprove your god. Atheists USE science as a way to gain understanding of their natural world, and therefore the validity of claims produced by a religion. The "lies" you claim are simply observations of our natural world.

What I would call a, "lie" is the entire, "anti-science" agenda that theists tend to have. Especially since your religion attempts, a cute but albeit futile, attempt to prove itself. It's almost like you'll only use science when it supports your agenda and muslim worldview. :nervous:

Agree with you that science is just a 'tool', so there should be no Atheist tools (Atheist math?), scientist have different opinion whether there is a Creator of this world or no, one side don't believe because it simply can't be proven with the current tools and claim that this is natural, and the others believe that there should be a cause for everything, world just exists out of nowhere is not acceptable something Super should exists but they don't have the right tools for measuring it or the current tools simply is not capable. So science is not simply Atheist Science.

We even haven't capable to explore all stars in the universe, or go the deepest of ocean, yet claim the Creator is not exists?

Don't wasting your time telling us our believe is a 'lie', for us something can't be proven is not a 'lie', it's questionable. We believe the correct tools for knowing the Creator is exists with eeman, signs, and the Holy Qur'an, while you are limiting your tools.

[AntiScimitar]

People do things that animal do!

You claim that our societies have rules, are you sure it's our? societies have different opinions about rules, every society is likely to have differences of opinion in categorizing what is good and what is bad. For us, religion is the chosen rules of our society, so your rules is your rules while ours is ours, and you can't tell us why we should not follow what we think is right.
No, if you actually read what I've said, I said that morality is a social construct. You've basically just described that. Your in Islam follow a judaic-christian sort of morality, eye for eye. Tooth for tooth, ect

Agree with you that science is just a 'tool', so there should be no Atheist tools (Atheist math?), scientist have different opinion whether there is a Creator of this world or no, one side don't believe because it simply can't be proven with the current tools and claim that this is natural, and the others believe that there should be a cause for everything, world just exists out of nowhere is not acceptable something Super should exists but they don't have the right tools for measuring it or the current tools simply is not capable. So science is not simply Atheist Science.

It's all honestly a difference of opinion. Some scientists have faith, and other scientists say that faith has nothing to do with a religious setting.If you ask about the world popping into existence, I could just as easily ask about god popping into existence, but the fact of the matter is that you can't have infinite regress, on either side. That's why atheists, like myself, would just say they don't know. That being said, there isn't a cause for everything. An Intelligently designed world would LOVE for you to believe that their is, but, you have an entire set of organs in your body that have lost their evolutionary function, they have no cause whatsoever.

We even haven't capable to explore all stars in the universe, or go the deepest of ocean, yet claim the Creator is not exists?
I don't think that actually matters, we're not going to suddenly "run" into god. So far, a "creator" hasn't done anything to reveal himself.

Don't wasting your time telling us our believe is a 'lie', for us something can't be proven is not a 'lie', it's questionable. We believe the correct tools for knowing the Creator is exists with eeman, signs, and the Holy Qur'an, while you are limiting your tools.

I'm not telling you to believe in anything, what you want to believe in is entirely up to you. I just think your "tools" are a bit faulty. You have what? A god that doesn't show up. Signs that never happened, self-fulfilling prophecies, and a book that's pretty flawed. But yeah, I'm totally limiting my tools.

[sister herb]

I'm not telling you to believe in anything, what you want to believe in is entirely up to you. I just think your "tools" are a bit faulty. You have what? A god that doesn't show up. Signs that never happened, self-fulfilling prophecies, and a book that's pretty flawed. But yeah, I'm totally limiting my tools.[/INDENT]

My tools give me peace to my mind and that´s a lot to get. What your tools give to you? A hand full of dust and when the wind blows it away, nothing left.

Goodbye and thanks for the ignore button.

[Desert]

I have a mental disorder that I didn't understand so well and so I would say words of disbelief to myself all because I had some sort of mental fear
So I don't know how Islam would deal with me
I would get upset and say things like I am Christian!

[sister herb]

I have a mental disorder that I didn't understand so well and so I would say words of disbelief to myself all because I had some sort of mental fear
So I don't know how Islam would deal with me
I would get upset and say things like I am Christian!

We have to trust that Allah knows what is in our hearts, also in kind of situations like yours when some sort of disorder happens because of disease. It isn´t same like a person who really is disbeliever.

[Futuwwa]

Say what? :D

Bro, chill. the guy has run off... they always do!

Do you know what antimatter is? If not, find out.

[happymuslim]

Lmao if apostates were killed then why is islam growing so fast?

[happymuslim]

If muslims didn’t have freedom then why are non Muslims converting out of free will in countries of the west?

[happymuslim]

The stats speak for themselves this question is almost irrelevant

[Karl]

Atheists have killed people for not believing in socialism and Godlessness. The "red terror" has killed millions and millions of people for believing in God and private property and freedom to trade i.e. capitalism. The apostates of Islam who get into trouble are hostile to the religion. Muslims are free to leave their homeland and live with infidels and abandon their religion, but if they attack Islam it stands to reason that they are courting trouble.

[Scimitar]

Do you know what antimatter is? If not, find out.

Don't matter (see what I did there?) :D

[truthseeker63]

As Salamu Alaykum
to be fair the Majority of Muslim Countries do not kill or give capital punishment or give the death penalty for apostasy or stone people for sex outside of marriage or ban or outlaw the drinking of alcohol or punish or lash for zina if made public I'm not saying any of these sins are good I'm just making a point that most people who hate Islam or Muslims mostly in the West always talk about their fear of Sharia Law which is silly because there is no Caliphate a Caliph Caliphs today Empire all you you have in the Muslim World are Nation States most have a mix of Secular Laws and Sharia Courts which deal with personal matters mostly the Muslim Countries that really give the death penalty for apostasy are Saudi Arabia Iran and the Sudan and some of the Gulf States only a Minority of Muslim Nations stone or kill give death for apostasy I remember my memory it is still on my mind my memory I did not forget him I remember a Muslim told me years ago before I converted to Islam people can leave Islam you can stop praying fasting or going to a mosque or a masjid in a Islamic State if you keep it private same with any sin who is going to know I seen Muslims even go to Christian Churches or Jewish Synagogues to debate not convert but in Islam as far as I know you won't be forced to go or lashed to stoned if you don't show up at Masjids I know in Hadiths or Quran it says the Prophet
Muhammad said he would like to burn houses of those who don't go pray but that is not literal I heard I remember anyways thank you for your time ?

[hatsoff]

The apostates of Islam who get into trouble are hostile to the religion. Muslims are free to leave their homeland and live with infidels and abandon their religion, but if they attack Islam it stands to reason that they are courting trouble.

Right, and I think this speaks volumes. To "attack" and be "hostile" towards Islam is really just to criticize it, and maybe also to try to de-convert Muslims, right? But by "courting trouble" I think you are referring to physical violence. That's a big problem, IMO. Peace is a great good, to be valued and treasured. But Muslims routinely go berserk in reaction to mere words. I think this is a deep stain on the religion, and it's the kind of thing that urges us peaceful people to aggressively criticize Islam.

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Right, and I think this speaks volumes. To "attack" and be "hostile" towards Islam is really just to criticize it, and maybe also to try to de-convert Muslims, right? But by "courting trouble" I think you are referring to physical violence. That's a big problem, IMO. Peace is a great good, to be valued and treasured. But Muslims routinely go berserk in reaction to mere words. I think this is a deep stain on the religion, and it's the kind of thing that urges us peaceful people to aggressively criticize Islam.

With respect, I honestly think you're gravely mistaken if you believe that the only types of "attack" and hostility towards Islam exists in the form of criticism. Criticism, if fair, can be an opportunity for communication of a person's own position or clarification of a worldview or even discussion. However, that's not the case when ignorance and prejudice start to reign supreme in the minds of the majority of the host populace. The xenophobia and Islamophobia is a reality and far from a term of art that non-Muslims have deemed it as a way to keep on vilifying Islam as the monster which breeds monsters and thereby must be treated with aggressive action, anger, and hostility. For example, recently, a sister in a now-deleted-thread was talking about how she lives in Dearborn, Michigan called "Fearful in America" and had her neighbor's car burned down, her husband beaten and hospitalized, her children bullied, all for being Muslims. She was extremely worried that she and her family would be killed for being Muslim as her husband was unwilling to relocate. There is no type of cure or excuse for that level of bigotry. Remember always when you're criticizing Islam, in the minds of a lot of people, Islam is synonymous with all Muslims; and thereby they won't make the distinction that maybe you might be inclined to make, which is that there are Muslims who deserve criticism and Muslims who won't due to their individual choices or behaviors.

More importantly, it is not only Muslims that go "'beserk' in reaction to mere words" because you'll have an opportunity to see how people in the U.S. are going beserk on both sides of the political spectrum, left-wing and right-wing, when it comes to President Donald Trump. People on the left go beserk when President Donald Trump, in his true form to cheap theatrics, tweets anything "unpresidential" and the hard-core right-wingers go crazy when their new god is criticized in any form as if the greatest evil is to be able to identify what is wrong with this deeply flawed man that sits right now in the Oval Office. You live in a world wherein left-wing social justice warriors will go "beserk" if you dare to even insinuate that the transgender female or male still have the genes that identifies them as the gender with which they were born scientifically and you'll have right-wing social justice warriors go "beserk" if you perpetuate the notion that "Happy Holidays" is just a neutrally beneficial way to recognize and celebrate all different holiday traditions that fall into this month of the calendar when they believe that there's a "war on 'Merry Christmas'" and their dear beloved leader has brought it back from the jaws of death at the hands of sadist liberals. So, I don't like the implication that Muslims are the only ones who go beserk in reaction to mere words. It's been happening now for a long time - it is just that Muslims get a bad rap i.e. reputation for when they do go "beserk" because Muslim are easier to "otherize" and demonize because their main identity does not reflect that in which the host population can see easily a mirror of themselves. (Do some Scientologists go "beserk" when Scientology is criticized? Do some Christians go "beserk" when Christianity is criticized? Do some Hindus go "beserk" when Hinduism is criticized? If stories are to believed, in some form or the other, on one level or another, that's an unequivocal yes. We're, after all, all humans first and have shared flaws, religion or not.)

If you want to be even real, especially with yourself, ask yourself, about a bias that you might not recognize exists: Do you honestly believe that the world populace believes the Las Vegas concert massacre in which 58 people died and more than 500 people were injured is worse than an Ariana Grande concert in which 22 people died and 59 people were injured? Because believe it or not, if you're talking to Islamophobes, one is worse than the other and nothing matters except the attacker's identity: In the latter, the male perpetrator was a Muslim. That's enough to say, "Islam is the problem" or "Muslims are the problem" or both, not killing other people without knowing who you're killing to perpetrate the greatest carnage is the problem, not glorifying violence is the problem, not giving free media coverage to any type of perpetrators is the problem. Islam is the problem. Muslims are the problem. The end.

By the way, in some sense, I do agree with you that overzealous Muslims must learn to moderate their actions and words in response to "mere words," but it is deeply troubling that you seem to believe that aggressively criticizing Islam can ever be the act of a "peaceful people." Peaceful people are, from my understanding, "peaceful" in both their words and actions. They don't choose one or the other. Because they know that as much as words are "mere words," they still matter at the end of the day because they are the first thing upon which we judge people. Interviews for jobs? First time meetings? Social gatherings? The list goes on... In fact, if words didn't matter at all, we wouldn't even be having this conversation which ironically began in itself with words, words in which you expressed you wanted to know if Muslims feel constrained to believe and remain with their their belief system due to the apostasy taboo. Peaceful people want to help, not hurt. Peaceful people want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. (So, words matter. It's just that reasonable people believe other persons' words, right or wrong, shouldn't be the arbiter of our own present or future actions/responses/choices.)

Peace.

[Karl]

Right, and I think this speaks volumes. To "attack" and be "hostile" towards Islam is really just to criticize it, and maybe also to try to de-convert Muslims, right? But by "courting trouble" I think you are referring to physical violence. That's a big problem, IMO. Peace is a great good, to be valued and treasured. But Muslims routinely go berserk in reaction to mere words. I think this is a deep stain on the religion, and it's the kind of thing that urges us peaceful people to aggressively criticize Islam.

Peace is good but it can only be attained by two ways. God turns everybody into goody goody two shoes or an oppressive political power so great on Earth crushes the people into absolute servitude of the state and the people would be too afraid to ever even think of rebelling. The religious believe in the former while the Godless are working on the latter. So war and struggle is the price of freedom and I would prefer that than totalitarian oppression that enforces peace. Only the Creator has the right to change our nature.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Oh great this is what this forum needs, another atheist looking to subvert.

Don't you have better things to do with your time?

[fromelsewhere]

Lmao if apostates were killed then why is islam growing so fast?

Apostates and non-Muslims are often being killed in Muslim-majority countries for their disbelief, and many Muslims believe that this is right. Read the news or read what IslamQA has to say on the topic...

https://islamqa.info/en/20327 "Why is the apostate to be executed in Islam?"

Here is an excerpt:

If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)

See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180.

Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority”

[al-Nisa’ 4:59]

And the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has commanded us to execute the apostate as in the hadeeth quoted above: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”

- - - Updated - - -

Salaam

Oh great this is what this forum needs, another atheist looking to subvert.

Don't you have better things to do with your time?

I think it's actually a very valid question that the OP asks. Why kill someone who simply cannot believe? The person who disbelieves is going to hell anyways as per Islam...

[happymuslim]

Apostates and non-Muslims are often being killed in Muslim-majority countries for their disbelief, and many Muslims believe that this is right. Read the news or read what IslamQA has to say on the topic...

https://islamqa.info/en/20327 "Why is the apostate to be executed in Islam?"

Here is an excerpt:

If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)

See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180.

Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority”

[al-Nisa’ 4:59]

And the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has commanded us to execute the apostate as in the hadeeth quoted above: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”

Alright I see your confusion, please with an open mind, watch this video.

https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc

https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc

[fromelsewhere]

Alright I see your confusion, please with an open mind, watch this video.

https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc

https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc

Again, many Muslims believe that it is right to kill apostates and disbelievers. This is why there are plenty of terrorist groups that exist who claim to be practicing Islam (I don't think I need to give examples, do I?). This does not mean that most Muslims believe that this is right or that this is what Islam is about. But there are a lot of Muslim scholars out there who preach a very hardline Islam and who state very clearly that apostates should be killed. This is very unfortunate because these scholars influence lots of people, especially those who are less educated and who don't have access to other scholars/opinions on religion.

[happymuslim]

Again, many Muslims believe that it is right to kill apostates and disbelievers. This is why there are plenty of terrorist groups that exist who claim to be practicing Islam (I don't think I need to give examples, do I?). This does not mean that most Muslims believe that this is right or that this is what Islam is about. But there are a lot of Muslim scholars out there who preach a very hardline Islam and who state very clearly that apostates should be killed. This is very unfortunate because these scholars influence lots of people, especially those who are less educated and who don't have access to other scholars/opinions on religion.

Your right it is unfortunate that their are extremist versions of Islam who twist things to there liking but remember, don’t judge islam based on what muslims do. Base it on what Islam really says. If you met a bunch of Muslims who permitted the drinking of alcohol does that make it permissible in Islam? [emoji849][emoji848] no [emoji52]. Because Islam says that alcohol is impermissible. Simple concept.

[fromelsewhere]

Your right it is unfortunate that their are extremist versions of Islam who twist things to there liking but remember, don’t judge islam based on what muslims do. Base it on what Islam really says. If you met a bunch of Muslims who permitted the drinking of alcohol does that make it permissible in Islam? [emoji849][emoji848] no [emoji52]. Because Islam says that alcohol is impermissible. Simple concept.

But what does Islam really say on the topic of apostasy is debatable as some scholars take the hardline and say "kill the apostate" and then you have other scholars such as Dr. Shabir Ally who are quite moderate and say "there is no compulsion in religion... you don't kill the apostate nowadays." If only the moderate views of people like Dr. Shabir Ally were more mainstream...

[happymuslim]

But what does Islam really say on the topic of apostasy is debatable as some scholars take the hardline and say "kill the apostate" and then you have other scholars such as Dr. Shabir Ally who are quite moderate and say "there is no compulsion in religion... you don't kill the apostate nowadays." If only the moderate views of people like Dr. Shabir Ally were more mainstream...

Well that’s your bias. He spoke facts and your take on it was “oh well, he’s moderate”. He explained why it doesn’t apply to our current times in a reasonable, rational fashion. Um no, you clearly are trying to find an excuse to continue arguing. Here is another video, maybe this could help you understand what Islam says about apostasy:

https://youtu.be/it_j1k-MPPA

[happymuslim]

Well that’s your bias. He spoke facts and your take on it was “oh well, he’s moderate”. He explained why it doesn’t apply to our current times in a reasonable, rational fashion. Um no, you clearly are trying to find an excuse to continue arguing. Here is another video, maybe this could help you understand what Islam says about apostasy:

https://youtu.be/it_j1k-MPPA

I’m sorry I read your reply wrong, I guess your right. I do hope his explanation on this debate becomes more mainstream [emoji53]

[Futuwwa]

Again, many Muslims believe that it is right to kill apostates and disbelievers. This is why there are plenty of terrorist groups that exist who claim to be practicing Islam (I don't think I need to give examples, do I?).

Yes, you do. Care to give some examples of terrorist groups whose agenda is specifically, primarily to hunt down apostates? No moving of the goalposts.

[fromelsewhere]

Yes, you do. Care to give some examples of terrorist groups whose agenda is specifically, primarily to hunt down apostates? No moving of the goalposts.

Some examples off the top of my head: Yazidis in Iraq (courtesy of ISIS), Copts in Egypt (courtesy of Al Qaeda and ISIS), Christians in Nigeria (courtesy of Boko Haram), Salman Rushdie who is in hiding due to Iranian leaders issuing a fatwa calling for his death.

And here is a link to an article that discusses the countries where apostasy is punishable by death. There are 13 such countries, and all these countries are Muslim-majority countries: https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...e-death/355961

The countries are: Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

Of course, many other countries have apostasy laws but don't punish by death (officially, at least). There's a video circulating online of a Christian convert who was beheaded in Tunisia in 2012 by a bunch of masked men. I don't watch these types of videos, but part of the video was aired on an Egyptian show.

[cinnamonrolls1]

Salam/ hi,
Im going to post something a scholar i follow on tumblr posted about this matter. He specialises in Sharia law and used to be a imam. I like his opinions a lot, as does my father. Here's his view :

As far The Qur'an is concerned, there are no punishments on this earth for leaving Islam

“As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith – and this, to be sure, does not apply to one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, but [only to] him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth -: upon all such [falls] God’s condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them: (107) all this, because they hold this world’s life in greater esteem than the life to come, and because God does not bestow His guidance upon people who deny the truth. They whose hearts and whose hearing and whose sight God has sealed – it is they, they who are heedless! (109) Truly it is they, they who in the life to come shall be the losers!” [16:106-108] Muhammad Asad

So, if there is nothing in The Qur'an that would sanction any earthly punishments (i.e. flogging, prison, etc) the question becomes, where do we get the idea that Apostasy in Islam is punishable by death?

The answer is Hadith. Now, I would like to be very clear here, if there is something that is in the Hadith, that is not in The Qur'an, there are two possibilities:
First, if the Hadith contradicts something in The Qur'an, there’s is a very high probability that it is a weak (dayeef) or fabricated Hadith.
Second, as is the case with the Hadith in question (sanctioning death for Apostasy) you must check the Hadith back to the larger rule found in The Qur'an, if The Qur'an does not directly support the injunction found in this Hadith, then that means without question that the Hadith is for a very narrow and very explicit situation that most probably will never be relevant to you.
Thus, when The Prophet says that those who leave Islam should be put to death, he is talking about a very specific time, when the Muslims were living in Yathrib (Medina) and were being attacked and besieged by the Meccans.

Let us remember that what constituted the community of the early Muslims was not tribal, blood ties, or ethnic; the community that was established by The Prophet was predicated on belief (among the Muslims) and as a conscious, willing union between those of other faiths (namely Jews, Christians, and Pagans of Yathrib [Medina]).

So, when we think of “religion” today, we think of it as something separate to our nationality, tribe, ethnicity, etc. People can be a German Buddhist, or a Japanese Christian, or a Argentinian Follower of The Church of Diego, but during the time of The Prophet, a person’s status as a “Muslim” was the equivalent to what we consider our national identity. The governmental structure that a Muslim was subject and loyal to was that of Islam, just like, an American citizen is subject and loyal to the United States government.

It is not the simplistic notion of leaving a religion, as we understand it today, rather, it should be understood as someone committing high treason, a crime that is punishable by death in the United States, and many other countries. This is different to “regular” treason, or petty treason, which is usually punished with life in prison. The difference between “high treason” and “treason” is whether the nation is at war, and in many countries, high treason is punishable by death, while treason is not.

So, the context of The Prophet saying that those who leave Islam should be put to death, it is not because they are “leaving Islam,” it is because they are betraying their community, which is defined by their acceptance of the tenants of Islam, much like the American community is not defined by any ethnic ties, but by one’s acceptance of the tenants of the US Constitution. Thus, this Hadith is within the context of (1) War time, (2) High Treason, and (3) Does not abrogate The Qur'an, but, is the result of a need deemed necessary by The Prophet, applies to this very narrow situation that he was in.


So, it is such a narrow context that it can almost be rendered meaningless. Today we do not organize our states by virtue of religion, we do so by the boundaries of the state, either in a geographic and/or national sense, so by saying that “death is penalty for those who turn to other religions,” we are not really referring to the same thing, which adds to the confusion.

[Zafran]

salaam

I agree the apostasy laws are basically treason laws - many countries still regard religion and statehood as one and the same - Its why the apostasy laws are applied in that way.

[Futuwwa]

Some examples off the top of my head: Yazidis in Iraq (courtesy of ISIS), Copts in Egypt (courtesy of Al Qaeda and ISIS), Christians in Nigeria (courtesy of Boko Haram), Salman Rushdie who is in hiding due to Iranian leaders issuing a fatwa calling for his death.

And here is a link to an article that discusses the countries where apostasy is punishable by death. There are 13 such countries, and all these countries are Muslim-majority countries: https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...e-death/355961

The countries are: Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

Of course, many other countries have apostasy laws but don't punish by death (officially, at least). There's a video circulating online of a Christian convert who was beheaded in Tunisia in 2012 by a bunch of masked men. I don't watch these types of videos, but part of the video was aired on an Egyptian show.

As I expected, you moved the goalposts.

Yazidis, Copts and Nigerian Christians aren't ex-Muslim apostates. Rushdie was marked for death for blasphemous publication, not apostasy. Neither is apostate-killing the primary agenda of any of those groups, which it would have to be for your initial assertion to be true, which is, I quote:

Again, many Muslims believe that it is right to kill apostates and disbelievers. This is why there are plenty of terrorist groups that exist who claim to be practicing Islam (I don't think I need to give examples, do I?)

I asked for terrorist groups that have the killing of apostates as a primary agenda. That there are countries with anti-apostasy laws is irrelevant.

[hatsoff]

By the way, in some sense, I do agree with you that overzealous Muslims must learn to moderate their actions and words in response to "mere words," but it is deeply troubling that you seem to believe that aggressively criticizing Islam can ever be the act of a "peaceful people."

Well just think about what aggressive criticism entails. This means pointing out stuff like, there is no good evidence that God exists, that you don't need to wear special clothing to mollify an invisible deity, that you don't need to prostrate yourself five times a day, and so on. And I suppose it might be rude to do this, in certain situations. But it's is a far cry from actually becoming violent, throwing punches, kicking, or using weapons like knives and guns.

So, maybe some people are rude and obnoxious. Okay. But at least they aren't stoking fear, violence, and death.

[Zafran]

there is no good evidence that God exists

There is no "good evidence" that atheism is true or even tells us anything about the world its meaningless.

that you don't need to wear special clothing to mollify an invisible deity,

why do we need to wear clothing at all?

that you don't need to prostrate yourself five times a day,

Or take care of our children/parents, Give charity, help people or basically do anything

And I suppose it might be rude to do this,

Being rude is easy - being an atheist is even harder.

But it's is a far cry from actually becoming violent, throwing punches, kicking, or using weapons like knives and guns.

Or wasting your time on something you dont believe in? what do you want sympathy?

So, maybe some people are rude and obnoxious. Okay. But at least they aren't stoking fear, violence, and death.

Being rude and obnoxious is some how the moral baseline now???

You wasting your time - do something productive. - let helping your kinsman or the poor and needy. It might focus your mind on things that matter.

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

I have thought a lot about what aggressive criticism entails, and here's my answer: Criticizing what you feel is legitimately something that is not good or right about Islam is not it; after all, I don't have to agree with your definition or parameters of what is good or right. To me, at least, aggressive criticism is the kind of ridiculous, oversensitive, hyped (often untrue or a spectrum-of-truth-and-lies-mixed criticism) attacks of Islam that I often see Islamophobes engage in as a tactic of scaremongering. It serves no real purpose except to make the world wary of Muslims as a way to make zeros in the bank account and often is also used as a bait-and-switch in politics to sway the masses one way or another on the political spectrum. Muslims are not synonymous with ISIS, and I and other Muslims should not have to prove myself innocent before any human being before being given the benefit of doubt of deserving the same benefit of doubt as one would give any other human being. A good rule of thumb, in fact, should be something like: If a person don't give you a reason to make you think they're the type of person who likes to stoke fear, violence, and death, then that imagery should not be allowed to reign supreme in your mind as to what that person is or represents.

Also, I'm not sure why you've brought up in your post the issue of throwing punches, kicking, or using violence or utilizing weapons like knives or guns in response to criticism of Islam. Because I can honestly say I have never once seen a reasonable person go berserk when confronted with criticism of Islam or Muslims. Scratch that. I have never seen any reasonable person go berserk at any type of criticism. I have only seen narcissistic or generally rage-filled people react in the type of image you're painting, and I cannot recall them being Muslims as such; in fact, I associate such disgraceful behavior with drunks in a bar, Nazis, white supremacists, gang members, or terrorists. And last time I checked, those things are not exclusive to religion. Mostly, certain personality types gravitate to that type of my penis-is-bigger-than-yours or how-dare-you confrontations resulting in physical altercations or uneven matches: Mull on that for thought?

Peace.

Well just think about what aggressive criticism entails. This means pointing out stuff like, there is no good evidence that God exists, that you don't need to wear special clothing to mollify an invisible deity, that you don't need to prostrate yourself five times a day, and so on. And I suppose it might be rude to do this, in certain situations. But it's is a far cry from actually becoming violent, throwing punches, kicking, or using weapons like knives and guns.

So, maybe some people are rude and obnoxious. Okay. But at least they aren't stoking fear, violence, and death.

[99sobi]

If someone makes the choice to leave Islam, I am not going to force them back. "There is no compulsion in religion"; if Allah wills, He will guide them back to the straight path. I can help them but I cannot make them or force them to return to Islam. I cannot also judge them, because how is it possible that I judge someone (and discriminate them), when I am being judged and tested myself; how can any of us judge each other when we are all being judged by Al-Hakam, the only true judge. I do not support killing or attacking or insulting someone who has left Islam, because this will give them even more reason to be away from Islam; rather, we must be kind to them and talk to them about why they left Islam. Perhaps they had some misconceptions, which can later be clarified.

[Haroonomary]

Lol :exhausted

[Misbah-Abd]

Apostasy in Islam is the ugliest form of disbelief that sends the apostate in hell forever, as Allah says:

"...and if any of you turns back from his religion and dies as an unbeliever, his deeds will become void in this life and in the hereafter. He will be the inmate of the hellfire, to abide in there forever." [2.217]

And that Apostate who had the "freedom" in this world according to the false ideologies of man to forsake his Islam will wish that he lived under Shariah that would have been a deterrent for him to do such a thing with the hudud punishment that is justified. For those who say "the prescribed death penalty" is not in the Quran, we have the hadiths of the Prophet s.a.a.w. that state whoever changes his religion then kill him and the best generation brought up from mankind (Sahaba) who knows Islam more than all the scholars that came after them, also implemented the death penalty and fought the apostates for not paying zakat on even a camel strap. So who are you, modernist deviants, who think they know better than the Prophet s.a.a.w. and his Companions who dare have the audacity to contradict them when it really boils down to being cowardly towards the kuffar and attempt to appease them and justify that Islam means "peace" and not "submission" to the Law of Allah, and to be convinced by the laws of the U.N. that state that peoples have a right to choose their religion, and other such absurdities that contradict the tenets of Islam. And Allah Knows Best.

[M.I.A.]

Apostasy in Islam is the ugliest form of disbelief that sends the apostate in hell forever, as Allah says:

"...and if any of you turns back from his religion and dies as an unbeliever, his deeds will become void in this life and in the hereafter. He will be the inmate of the hellfire, to abide in there forever." [2.217]

And that Apostate who had the "freedom" in this world according to the false ideologies of man to forsake his Islam will wish that he lived under Shariah that would have been a deterrent for him to do such a thing with the hudud punishment that is justified. For those who say "the prescribed death penalty" is not in the Quran, we have the hadiths of the Prophet s.a.a.w. that state whoever changes his religion then kill him and the best generation brought up from mankind (Sahaba) who knows Islam more than all the scholars that came after them, also implemented the death penalty and fought the apostates for not paying zakat on even a camel strap. So who are you, modernist deviants, who think they know better than the Prophet s.a.a.w. and his Companions who dare have the audacity to contradict them when it really boils down to being cowardly towards the kuffar and attempt to appease them and justify that Islam means "peace" and not "submission" to the Law of Allah, and to be convinced by the laws of the U.N. that state that peoples have a right to choose their religion, and other such absurdities that contradict the tenets of Islam. And Allah Knows Best.

We live in a time where even those that pray regularly and keep relations.. are involved or responsible for actions detrimental to those around them.

The more i see it the more i am split.

If it is what the religion is, then better to have been heedless..

For maximum effect.

Even the rules are a weapon..

Make no mistake i dont deny allah swt, i dont even consider most people to be human anymore..

Although we are.

But yeah welcome the sharia as it imposes itself..

Its entire selfishness overrules my own.

Gone are the days i was fed ammo and spat fire..

..the body is ready though.

[azc]

If someone makes the choice to leave Islam, I am not going to force them back. "There is no compulsion in religion"; if Allah wills, He will guide them back to the straight path. I can help them but I cannot make them or force them to return to Islam. I cannot also judge them, because how is it possible that I judge someone (and discriminate them), when I am being judged and tested myself; how can any of us judge each other when we are all being judged by Al-Hakam, the only true judge. I do not support killing or attacking or insulting someone who has left Islam, because this will give them even more reason to be away from Islam; rather, we must be kind to them and talk to them about why they left Islam. Perhaps they had some misconceptions, which can later be clarified.

None can forcibly stop if someone leaves Islam and none is going to punish him but in case he lives in a state ruled according to Islamic shariah then the law of the land will punish him whether you like it or not. Those who challenge the laws of the land are punished in every country.

[99sobi]

None can forcibly stop if someone leaves Islam and none is going to punish him but in case he lives in a state ruled according to Islamic shariah then the law of the land will punish him whether you like it or not. Those who challenge the laws of the land are punished in every country.

Yes, you are correct. Some countries have laws in which leaving Islam - and making a public display of it either through saying blasphemous things or committing acts that are contrary to Islamic jurisprudence - is a crime, and I respect that law even though I do not completely agree with it. But, one should respect the laws of the land they are in, and if they do not agree or respect those laws, then they should leave that country instead of rebelling against the law.

The Qur'an says 4:59 (tafsir) -

O you who believe obey God and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you that is rulers when they command you to obey God and His Messenger.

I would also like to quote the following verses (tafsir; not direct translation):

18:29 - And say to him and to his companions that this Qur’ān is ‘The truth that comes from your Lord; so whoever will let him believe and whoever will let him disbelieve’ — this is meant as a threat to them.

10:99 - And if your Lord willed all who are in the earth would have believed together. Would you then compel people to do what God did not will that they do until they are believers? No!

11:28 - He said ‘O my people have you considered — inform me — if I am acting upon a clear proof a clear statement from my Lord and He has given me mercy — prophethood — from Him and it has been obscured concealed from you ‘amiyat ‘obscured’ a variant reading has the passive ‘ummiyat can we compel you to it are we able to force you to accept it while you are averse to it? We are not able to do that.

88:21-22 - So remind them of God’s graces and the proofs affirming His Oneness. For you are only an admonisher; you are not a taskmaster over them a variant reading for musaytir has musaytir that is to say not one who has been given authority over them — this was revealed before the command to struggle against the disbelievers.

[fschmidt]

But what does Islam really say on the topic of apostasy is debatable as some scholars take the hardline and say "kill the apostate" and then you have other scholars such as Dr. Shabir Ally who are quite moderate and say "there is no compulsion in religion... you don't kill the apostate nowadays." If only the moderate views of people like Dr. Shabir Ally were more mainstream...

If you want to know what Islam really says on any topic, then just read the Quran for yourself. You don't have to be Muslim to do this. I am not Muslim. The Quran is the primary reference for what Islam really is, and so anyone who wants to know can just read it. Of course every religion has both stupid and evil people who will misinterpret the scripture of their religion. But true Islam is found in the Quran, not in the minds of random scholars.

I have an atheistic background, so I would like to point out a key difference between a religion like Islam and secular culture. Whatever you think of the Quran and its source, there is no doubt that the Quran serves as an anchor for Islam and is a strong intellectual weapon against any scholar who tries to drag Islam away from its roots. In contrast, secular culture has no such anchor. As much as I admire the Western Enlightenment, there is no "Enlightenment Bible" and so Western culture has completely drifted away from its own roots and is now degenerate and irrational. And for this reason, I think any rational person should consider Islam superior to modern Western culture even if they don't accept Islamic beliefs enough to convert, as I haven't converted.

[azc]

If you want to know what Islam really says on any topic, then just read the Quran for yourself. You don't have to be Muslim to do this. I am not Muslim. The Quran is the primary reference for what Islam really is, and so anyone who wants to know can just read it. Of course every religion has both stupid and evil people who will misinterpret the scripture of their religion. But true Islam is found in the Quran, not in the minds of random scholars.I have an atheistic background, so I would like to point out a key difference between a religion like Islam and secular culture. Whatever you think of the Quran and its source, there is no doubt that the Quran serves as an anchor for Islam and is a strong intellectual weapon against any scholar who tries to drag Islam away from its roots. In contrast, secular culture has no such anchor. As much as I admire the Western Enlightenment, there is no "Enlightenment Bible" and so Western culture has completely drifted away from its own roots and is now degenerate and irrational. And for this reason, I think any rational person should consider Islam superior to modern Western culture even if they don't accept Islamic beliefs enough to convert, as I haven't converted.

https://islamqa.org/hanafi/darulfiqh/21987

[fschmidt]

https://islamqa.org/hanafi/darulfiqh/21987

A rather incomplete answer. Not a single reference to the Quran to support punishment for apostasy.

I am reading the Quran now. I find it exceptionally reasonable. I have read some of the verses used to support punishment for apostasy, and it is clear to me that these apply to the condition of war as described by Dr. Shabir Ally in the link posted by happymuslim https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc .

For me, the contrast between the reasonableness of the Quran and the unreasonableness of later Islamic scholars is quite extreme. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised since the same happened in Judaism where the scholars/rabbis completely ruined their religion. The same could happen in Islam if unreliable Hadiths and bad opinions of scholars are held above the plain meaning of the Quran.

Anyway, I would be interested to see a response to Dr. Shabir Ally by those who support punishment for apostasy.

[azc]

A rather incomplete answer. Not a single reference to the Quran to support punishment for apostasy.I am reading the Quran now. I find it exceptionally reasonable. I have read some of the verses used to support punishment for apostasy, and it is clear to me that these apply to the condition of war as described by Dr. Shabir Ally in the link posted by happymuslim https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc .For me, the contrast between the reasonableness of the Quran and the unreasonableness of later Islamic scholars is quite extreme. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised since the same happened in Judaism where the scholars/rabbis completely ruined their religion. The same could happen in Islam if unreliable Hadiths and bad opinions of scholars are held above the plain meaning of the Quran.Anyway, I would be interested to see a response to Dr. Shabir Ally by those who support punishment for apostasy.

al-Bukhaari (6922), such as the hadith: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”

[Misbah-Abd]

A rather incomplete answer. Not a single reference to the Quran to support punishment for apostasy.

I am reading the Quran now. I find it exceptionally reasonable. I have read some of the verses used to support punishment for apostasy, and it is clear to me that these apply to the condition of war as described by Dr. Shabir Ally in the link posted by happymuslim https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc .

For me, the contrast between the reasonableness of the Quran and the unreasonableness of later Islamic scholars is quite extreme. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised since the same happened in Judaism where the scholars/rabbis completely ruined their religion. The same could happen in Islam if unreliable Hadiths and bad opinions of scholars are held above the plain meaning of the Quran.

Anyway, I would be interested to see a response to Dr. Shabir Ally by those who support punishment for apostasy.

Again, you want to talk about why it isn't in the Quran but it is in the other source of Islamic Law, the Sunnah. The Prophet s.a.a.w. hadiths on this are Sahih, his Companions implemented the hudud punishment for it, there is ijma of the classical scholars on it and yet you want give weight to what some later scholar said on it. Unbelievable. Let me tell this once again. IF WHAT SCHOLARS SAY CONTRADICTS THE LAW OF ALLAH, BE IT THE QURAN OR SUNNAH AND HOW THE SAHABA UNDERSTOOD AS WELL AS THE EARLIEST GENERATIONS THAT FOLLOWED IT THEN DISREGARD THEIR FALSE OPINIONS.

[Mahir Adnan]

I am a practical Muslim from my college life, and have faced several atheist in debate. you may not believe me, nobody could defeat me.
a Muslim blogger of my country explained why apostate must be killed.
his post gained popularity over night on Facebook.
inshallah, I will translate that in English, even though I am not good at English.
But I will do it as soon as I get some free time,inshallah.