Umar bin Al-Khattab's involvement in Hijab verses

[MuslimTurtles]

Assalamualaikum everyone.

I'm new here, and also a new convert. I'll post about myself in a bit, but I just wanted to seek out some information. I hope this is the right place to do it. Mods, please relocate if this could go in a different place.

My fiancee and I are seeking out knowledge about whether hijab is obligatory or not. We've both done a fair bit of research, we just want a little extra opinion on the matter. I'm a Christian convert to Islam living in rural America and she's a born Muslim for Egypt. Two different cultures, but Allah brought us together alhamdulillah.

We're not seeking to spark debate or change anyone's minds or opinions, just a collective knowledge. We are hoping to avoid toxicity and closed minded replies. This has been posted to Reddit, but the majority there are of the opinion it isn't up for discussion, period. I am hoping this community will be more friendly and welcoming, especially for a new convert such as myself.

Enough about that, here's what we are seeking.

My question now is about Umar bin Al-Khattab's Involvement in Hijab verses. I read earlier (and maybe I am wrong) that there is a hadith saying that :

'A'isha reported that the wives of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) used to go out in the cover of night when they went to open fields (in the outskirts of Medina) for easing themselves. 'Umar b Khattab used to say: Allah's Messenger, ask your ladies to observe veil, but Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not do that. So there went out Sauda, daughter of Zarn'a, the wife of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall statured lady. 'Umar called her saying: Sauda, we recognise you. (He did this with the hope that the verses pertaining to veil would be revealed.) 'A'isha said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, then revealed the verses pertaining to veil. [Sahih Muslim 26:5397](http://quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/USC-...6/Hadith-5397/)


>Umar once saw a young girl leaving the house of Hafsa (his daughter), adorned with a jilbab — or, from one of the houses of the Prophet’s wives. Umar entered the house and said, “Who is this girl?” They said, “A slave of ours” — or, a slave of someone’s family. He became enraged at them and said, “Your slave girls left with their adornment, and created discord (fitna) amongst the people.”
— Abd al-Razzaq al-Sanani (d. 211 AH/826 CE). Al-Musannaf

That means that this verse was to differentiate between slaves and free women back at those days. There are no slaves nowadays and it is known that all women are free now. Was that verse for women back then only or does it include all women in nowadays too? If it includes present's women, would it be only a sign of modesty or a fard that would include punishment if not done?

Further link: [Saudi scholar says women are not required to wear hijab](http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2014...an-put-makeup/)

This is in no way a criticism of women who chose to wear a hijab vs those who do not. She does, and she believes she is right, however, she also wants to expand her knowledge and ask questions. Allah gave us a mind, it is only fitting to use it.

Thank you for any insight you can offer.

[Supernova]

Assalamualaikum everyone.

I'm new here, and also a new convert. I'll post about myself in a bit, but I just wanted to seek out some information. I hope this is the right place to do it. Mods, please relocate if this could go in a different place.

My fiancee and I are seeking out knowledge about whether hijab is obligatory or not. We've both done a fair bit of research, we just want a little extra opinion on the matter. I'm a Christian convert to Islam living in rural America and she's a born Muslim for Egypt. Two different cultures, but Allah brought us together alhamdulillah.

We're not seeking to spark debate or change anyone's minds or opinions, just a collective knowledge. We are hoping to avoid toxicity and closed minded replies. This has been posted to Reddit, but the majority there are of the opinion it isn't up for discussion, period. I am hoping this community will be more friendly and welcoming, especially for a new convert such as myself.

Enough about that, here's what we are seeking.

My question now is about Umar bin Al-Khattab's Involvement in Hijab verses. I read earlier (and maybe I am wrong) that there is a hadith saying that :

'A'isha reported that the wives of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) used to go out in the cover of night when they went to open fields (in the outskirts of Medina) for easing themselves. 'Umar b Khattab used to say: Allah's Messenger, ask your ladies to observe veil, but Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not do that. So there went out Sauda, daughter of Zarn'a, the wife of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall statured lady. 'Umar called her saying: Sauda, we recognise you. (He did this with the hope that the verses pertaining to veil would be revealed.) 'A'isha said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, then revealed the verses pertaining to veil. [Sahih Muslim 26:5397](http://quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/USC-...6/Hadith-5397/)


>Umar once saw a young girl leaving the house of Hafsa (his daughter), adorned with a jilbab — or, from one of the houses of the Prophet’s wives. Umar entered the house and said, “Who is this girl?” They said, “A slave of ours” — or, a slave of someone’s family. He became enraged at them and said, “Your slave girls left with their adornment, and created discord (fitna) amongst the people.”
— Abd al-Razzaq al-Sanani (d. 211 AH/826 CE). Al-Musannaf

That means that this verse was to differentiate between slaves and free women back at those days. There are no slaves nowadays and it is known that all women are free now. Was that verse for women back then only or does it include all women in nowadays too? If it includes present's women, would it be only a sign of modesty or a fard that would include punishment if not done?

Further link: [Saudi scholar says women are not required to wear hijab](http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2014...an-put-makeup/)

This is in no way a criticism of women who chose to wear a hijab vs those who do not. She does, and she believes she is right, however, she also wants to expand her knowledge and ask questions. Allah gave us a mind, it is only fitting to use it.

Thank you for any insight you can offer.

Asalaamualaykum.

Your post is very interesting. A few questions before an answer is given.

1. You stated you wanted an extra opinion - what was the initial opinion ?

2. You mentioned that you want to avoid toxic and close minded replies - What according to you constitutes as toxic and close minded ? (By you saying that, indicates there is a spectrum of answers that you will not accept) So what according to you is Toxic and close minded?

3. Are you aware that in fiqh a ruling is not derived on just one or two Hadith but rather a full comprehensive study on the Quran and Hadith taking all into account? (Your answer here will help to render you with a reply in accordance with understanding)

4. Are you aware of the difference between Hijab and Niqaab ?

5. You have quoted one scholar in your post (Its a complete misrepresentation anyway but I will reply about that later) but - Did you and your wife look at what other scholars say ?

Your answers here will help us to reply in accordance to your understanding.

Wasalaam.

[MuslimTurtles]

Thank you for the response. I don't mind answering those questions, and I'm sorry if I came off as hostile in my initial post. I'll give a little background as I go, so forgive me if this runs longer than I intend.

1. I would like an extra opinion, yes. It does NOT have to agree with me, bit I would like it to be thought out with supporting details. If I simply want hadiths, I could look them up myself.

2. When I say toxic, I mean ones that don't enhance or further the discussion. Closed minded would be if someone is adamant they are right, "just because". As a Christian, I found these types of people everywhere. They'd say things are the way they are because "that's how it is". I equate this to a child asking their mother for a cookie, mom saying no, "because I said so" I am more than happy to have different opinions presented if they are done so in a respectful manner. Bonus points if you can counter my argument by explaining how I am misinterpreting or misunderstanding.

2a. I mentioned in my first lost that this was also put on Reddit. The community there is, for lack of better words, very set in their ways. More or less, "Haram police." I posted there about how I live in a very non-Muslim, rural, white, Christian majority area of America. There is one Muslim community, close by, but it's not suited for Muslims. I asked about how I would justify eating if there are no halal markets or restaurants within a reasonable distance from me. I was met with two responses: first, eat only a plant based diet. Second, I could buy an entire cow and slaughter it myself... Because I have the money for that. I should also quit my job, sell my house, and trade my car because I am paying interest on those things, and my job sells liquor, cigarettes, and non-halal food. This would, in effect, leave me homeless and poor. I understand these things are Haram, but one also needs to survive.

When I posted about this Hijab question, I was met with the same negativity, ranging from "Because the scholars say so" to more or less, how dare I question the authority of Allah? Or that I am trying to push an agenda to satisfy my selfish desires. I'm sorry, but if I didn't question my faith, I wouldn't have found Islam to begin with, so should I just blindly follow now? It is not a friendly place unless you follow how they expect you to, and if I didn't have a strong support in my fiancee, I would have abandoned Islam and gone back to being a Christian, or maybe agnostic. Had they offered support and understanding, it wouldn't be so bad. I'm hoping this community has a decent ratio of conservative and more liberal-minded people that can work together to offer constructive criticism, even if it's not what I would like for an answer.

3. I'm only just beginning to understand Islam, but I have a basic understanding of how rulings are derived. My background is that no other texts are equal to or should be used in conjunction with the Holy Bible, since it is written that no man should add or take away from scripture, so the idea of hadiths being of any importance is something I am struggling to understand. Who is to say they are divinely inspired, and not just the wills of man? This is not a criticism of Islam and the way things are done, but as a convert, it's something I need to understand more. I am well aware however, thanks to the kind folks at Reddit, that rulings from scholars are a science and take years and years of study and therefore are supposed to be followed to the letter. Again, I need to understand this way of thinking better and it will come in time and with prayer.

4. I do know the difference between hijab (hair covered) and niquab (full face covered except eyes) and burka (full body except eyes). My fiancee is hijabi and I support her. We are just looking for more understanding.

5. I look forward to you explaining how it is a misrepresentation. I would love to learn all that I can to better understand my faith. This is not sarcasm; the reason I am here, the reason I made a choice to follow Islam, is because I wanted to learn. It doesn't stop with my saying shehada.

There is a scholar, Moez Masoud, from my understanding the way my fiancee tells it, he was on a show and they asked him about hijab. He said he found it to be not obligatory, and was in a sense ousted from the community for his views. Any time I have found someone stating this opinion, I also find that they are met with backlash as a result. This leads me to believe that it is possible at least some of the reason why hijab is "required" lies with traditions only and how it "has been and should be", more than actual evidence to prove it should be worn.

I know that many Muslim women choose not to wear a hijab, and if they are comfortable coming forward and saying why, I would be interested to hear their story and what lead to that decision. I respect all viewpoints, to be totally honest, I just want to be provided with examples, rather than useless links I could find myself, or a flamewar calling me kafir for not believing. That is not the case, I assure you. I am not looking to change my fiancee's mind, or anyone elses, I just want understanding and reasonable, thoughtful discussion.

I appreciate anyone who can provide evidence for or against and dispute that evidence respectfully without using terms like "because that's how it is".

Thank you so much and peace be with you.

[Supernova]

Asalaamualaykum

Ok I can see where you coming from. By the way your post was not seen as hostile. I am failing to think why you keep defending this position.

You still never answer my first question. Question 1.

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[MuslimTurtles]

Sorry, I get defensive because of my treatment on Reddit, which I know is not to ask for help in these matters.

The initial opinion I got was "Allah said it is so, and therefore it is" required that women should be covered. Some reference hijab only, most others said niquab should be used. They wouldn't entertain the notion of not wearing either.

[Supernova]

Sorry, I get defensive because of my treatment on Reddit, which I know is not to ask for help in these matters.

The initial opinion I got was "Allah said it is so, and therefore it is" required that women should be covered. Some reference hijab only, most others said niquab should be used. They wouldn't entertain the notion of not wearing either.

Asalaamualaykum:
Ok I am getting a feel of where you coming from.

Regarding this same issue of Question 1 : (because we are still working through this) - What did you not accept in their evidence that Allah SWT has declared the wearing of hijab?

[MuslimTurtles]

Asalaamualaykum:
Ok I am getting a feel of where you coming from.

Regarding this same issue of Question 1 : (because we are still working through this) - What did you not accept in their evidence that Allah SWT has declared the wearing of hijab?

Sure :)

It's not that I don't believe it. First of all, I'm a man so I have literally no say in the matter. Where my issue lay is the Quran explicitly stated things we should not do, such as, for example, eat swine, or rotten flesh from animals. It also details specifically the way to divide property inherited when a man dies. Ifwe want to go further, we assume Allah is the same God of Abraham and the same God the Christians follow (He is). Knowing this, we take the Torah and Bible both as God's infallible word. In the Torah, He tells us that we should not murder. We should not steal. It also says we should not consume pork, or touch the carcass of a pig. Tattoos are forbidden. As is polyester clothing. These things are explicitly stated. However, the verse of the Quran pertaining to hijab has many interpretations. I read them before, and some go so far as to describe a burka, not just hijab. Others, seem to claim only cover the bosom and chest. No mention of covering hair and neck.

My main objection, again, with nothing at risk to me personally, is why then, if the Quran states how much property the daughter of aunt of the man's wife gets after his death (an example), then why is it not told hijab specifically is obligatory?

[Supernova]

Sure :)

It's not that I don't believe it. First of all, I'm a man so I have literally no say in the matter. Where my issue lay is the Quran explicitly stated things we should not do, such as, for example, eat swine, or rotten flesh from animals. It also details specifically the way to divide property inherited when a man dies. Ifwe want to go further, we assume Allah is the same God of Abraham and the same God the Christians follow (He is). Knowing this, we take the Torah and Bible both as God's infallible word. In the Torah, He tells us that we should not murder. We should not steal. It also says we should not consume pork, or touch the carcass of a pig. Tattoos are forbidden. As is polyester clothing. These things are explicitly stated. However, the verse of the Quran pertaining to hijab has many interpretations. I read them before, and some go so far as to describe a burka, not just hijab. Others, seem to claim only cover the bosom and chest. No mention of covering hair and neck.

My main objection, again, with nothing at risk to me personally, is why then, if the Quran states how much property the daughter of aunt of the man's wife gets after his death (an example), then why is it not told hijab specifically is obligatory?

Please provide proof of these differences that you claim together with a chain of scholars that have supported this alternative opinion. Also show your proofs from the authentic books that lead to this difference.

[Insaanah]

Wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

Welcome to the ummah, the global Muslim community/brotherhood/family, welcome back to Islam, and welcome to the forum.

A point you listed above, which I’m quoting below, reminded me of another thread:

“I’m only just beginning to understand Islam, but I have a basic understanding of how rulings are derived. My background is that no other texts are equal to or should be used in conjunction with the Holy Bible, since it is written that no man should add or take away from scripture, so the idea of hadiths being of any importance is something I am struggling to understand. Who is to say they are divinely inspired, and not just the wills of man? This is not a criticism of Islam and the way things are done, but as a convert, it's something I need to understand more. I am well aware however, thanks to the kind folks at Reddit, that rulings from scholars are a science and take years and years of study and therefore are supposed to be followed to the letter. Again, I need to understand this way of thinking better and it will come in time and with prayer.”

Though not to do with hijaab, I’m posting the link for that thread here for your perusal. It’s a series of 8 posts, so even if you read one a day or one a week, please do make the time for it. The initial post may take a while to load:

Why do we follow hadeeths?

Peace.