Problems in society hindering Marriage

[ChosenTCO]

Hahaha! Honestly, I don’t like this labeling at all, but if you must know I fit under the regular/average sunni muslim.

I don’t follow any specific scholars or madhabs because I feel like they are all made up by human beings that are very well fallible. Add to that the element of misunderstanding and miscommunication and you get rulings and things that are very morphed and extreme ideologies. But thats not the worst part.

The thing that annoys me the most is when modern scholars keep warning us about the haram things, yet neglect to give halal substitutes for that which is haram. Every time when a new technology or idea or concept that immerge, scholars are quick to deem it haram without proper investigation or substitutes for it. It just makes the world harder and harder to live in.

The simplest example I can offer is to look at the problem of marriage and premarital relations. How many times have we seen new things that immerge which promotes and simplify premarital relations (i.e. porn, one night stands, dating apps, pickup artists)? And how many times have we got things from scholars and Islamic leaders that help the youth get married and encouraging it? When was the last time you’ve seen as scholar asking parents to lower their standards of potential spouses for their daughters? When have you seen the umma provide apps or methods for the young muslim girls to background check their potential spouses? When have you seen Islamic leaders help the muslim men with their mahr for marriage? And if there are, why aren’t these things being promoted just as much as the haram things and warnings about them are?

Oh boy, I just went off on a rant there and didn’t realise … lol. Anyways … point im trying to make is that, I don’t follow any specific madhabs or scholars because I feel like most of them are disconnected from reality and dont provide reasonable or compatible solutions to our modern-day issues of the world. And how could they when they have disconnected themselves so much from the rest of the world and only surround themselves with pious people that don’t see 10 feet beyond their sphere of influence to where the true fitna lies (which is actually where most people live and reside)?

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

The simplest example I can offer is to look at the problem of marriage and premarital relations. How many times have we seen new things that immerge which promotes and simplify premarital relations (i.e. porn, one night stands, dating apps, pickup artists)?

To give any importance or take influence from which is clearly haram will yield you problems no matter how many halal options you have. The issue with marriage comes from culture/customs not Islam. If Muslims in general give precedence to their culture over their deen then of course finding a suitable partner in the confines of Islam will be extremely challenging because they are not following the deen correctly in the first place. For example, the parents will be increasing the mahr because culture tells them that for their daughter to be happy and secure, the man has to be rich and of a certain ethnicity. The girl, also going along with her parents, will want a nice big fancy wedding, because it's all the rage. And the guy, even though the signs are clear this is NOT a pious family, will groan about never finding any suitable girls, except for the fact that these are the only type of girls he is ever actually interested in because he never takes in account all the actual important qualities that a suitable wife should have since he gets his pointers from those who engage in premarital relationships. See where I'm going with this? This is not an issue of "Islam" or "islamic community"...We are in the age of easily finding Islamic knowledge. We shouldn't wait for someone to "teach" us anymore. I'm not saying that dawah should stop, but rather that we all have an obligation to seek knowledge of our religion. You will find that if Muslims had been knowledgeable and pious, marriage would be extremely easy. It would be like..oh these two people love each other? Bam. Married.

And how many times have we got things from scholars and Islamic leaders that help the youth get married and encouraging it? When was the last time you’ve seen as scholar asking parents to lower their standards of potential spouses for their daughters?

There are many scholars who encourage the youth to get married. However, I would never suggest to any parent to lower their standards for their children. If you're speaking about lowering the mahr, then sure. If you're speaking about redirecting their standards to be more islamic based, then definitely, but I wouldn't say lower standards.

When have you seen the umma provide apps or methods for the young muslim girls to background check their potential spouses?

:hmm: Is that what's hindering women from getting married? Apps with background checks?

When have you seen Islamic leaders help the muslim men with their mahr for marriage? And if there are, why aren’t these things being promoted just as much as the haram things and warnings about them are?

Why would islamic leaders be obligated to help men with the mahr? You are your own man who should be able to work and provide for your future spouse. One of the biggest issues with many muslims, especially those who are looking to get married, is that they put absolutely no effort in themselves. They don't improve their characters, they don't actually learn the deen properly, they don't have any patience, they don't trust in Allah's provision; they are still very immature.

Yes there are those who genuinely cannot find a suitable spouse, but sometimes marriage is not in everyone's destiny and that's ok. Being able to accept your situation, make du'a, still feel grateful, and continue to be patient is what matters in the end.

You see yourself in an environment which is incompatible with Islam, but what type of environment do you think the people were in pre-Islam? It was far worse than it is now, and Islam was the cure, and it's still the cure.

[new2010]

Assalamu Alaikum



To give any importance or take influence from which is clearly haram will yield you problems no matter how many halal options you have. The issue with marriage comes from culture/customs not Islam. If Muslims in general give precedence to their culture over their deen then of course finding a suitable partner in the confines of Islam will be extremely challenging because they are not following the deen correctly in the first place. For example, the parents will be increasing the mahr because culture tells them that for their daughter to be happy and secure, the man has to be rich and of a certain ethnicity. The girl, also going along with her parents, will want a nice big fancy wedding, because it's all the rage. And the guy, even though the signs are clear this is NOT a pious family, will groan about never finding any suitable girls, except for the fact that these are the only type of girls he is ever actually interested in because he never takes in account all the actual important qualities that a suitable wife should have since he gets his pointers from those who engage in premarital relationships. See where I'm going with this? This is not an issue of "Islam" or "islamic community"...We are in the age of easily finding Islamic knowledge. We shouldn't wait for someone to "teach" us anymore. I'm not saying that dawah should stop, but rather that we all have an obligation to seek knowledge of our religion. You will find that if Muslims had been knowledgeable and pious, marriage would be extremely easy. It would be like..oh these two people love each other? Bam. Married.



There are many scholars who encourage the youth to get married. However, I would never suggest to any parent to lower their standards for their children. If you're speaking about lowering the mahr, then sure. If you're speaking about redirecting their standards to be more islamic based, then definitely, but I wouldn't say lower standards.



:hmm: Is that what's hindering women from getting married? Apps with background checks?



Why would islamic leaders be obligated to help men with the mahr? You are your own man who should be able to work and provide for your future spouse. One of the biggest issues with many muslims, especially those who are looking to get married, is that they put absolutely no effort in themselves. They don't improve their characters, they don't actually learn the deen properly, they don't have any patience, they don't trust in Allah's provision; they are still very immature.

Yes there are those who genuinely cannot find a suitable spouse, but sometimes marriage is not in everyone's destiny and that's ok. Being able to accept your situation, make du'a, still feel grateful, and continue to be patient is what matters in the end.

You see yourself in an environment which is incompatible with Islam, but what type of environment do you think the people were in pre-Islam? It was far worse than it is now, and Islam was the cure, and it's still the cure.

The main problem here is, in non-Muslim countries it's impossible to get in touch with sisters. And this is a things, that has nothing to do with culture. Islam says, we shall not come near to adultery, bam. Lowering gaze, bam. I don't say this is not good, it is perfect system. But when it comes to finding a spouse it's an obstacle. There a two options. Finding someone over family, but what to do, when your family is unable to help? Ask brothers, hmm, they apparently don't care, why should they, they are already married. Last option, go to the mosque, but I am not going to the mosque to ask for a wife. So there is no option left and now try to abstain from that what Allah has prohibited. You need to rely to 100 per cent to other people, because you cannot to anything at your own, what is good for safety, but with this way you will stay single until your death. Look at me, it applies. I have no option, except asking Allah, but for some a reason Allah doesn't want me to marry. So, it's really frustrating. And even if you try to get in touch by lowering your gaze and not talking to the sister, you get criticized. Everyone is good a speaking and criticizing..., but helping, no.


wa alaikum assalam

[ChosenTCO]

I really want to thank you for responding to my post and most of all doing so in a civil manner:statisfie
There are many points you stated that i would like to respond to and talk about.

To give any importance or take influence from which is clearly haram will yield you problems no matter how many halal options you have.

Agreed. No arguments here as we are on the same page so far.

The issue with marriage comes from culture/customs not Islam. If Muslims in general give precedence to their culture over their deen then of course finding a suitable partner in the confines of Islam will be extremely challenging because they are not following the deen correctly in the first place.

Agreed. But the problem is that the scholars arent promoting both sides of the problem equality. They stress so much about how haram it is to have premarital relations but they barely say anything about making marriage easy for the youth! That is why there is a problem. You yourself said it, they are not following the deen correctly(because they are not both sides of the problem equally enough), muslims just chose to follow the part that benefits the parents of the daughter and neglect the youth's desires. They should also be stressing about the importants of making marriage easy as well. They are not following ISLAM properly.

This is not an issue of "Islam" or "islamic community"

Partially agree. It is NOT an issue of islam, but IT IS an issue of the islamic community because are all the ones responsible for the community's well being.

We shouldn't wait for someone to "teach" us anymore.

Disagree:hiding::embarrass. If this were true, then the concept of marketing and advertisements in general would not be real or needed. Everybody would just search for the information they need and thats it. However, even in islam you got so many different opinions you just cant escape with one opinion without reading its counter part.

if Muslims had been knowledgeable and pious, marriage would be extremely easy.

Agreed. But thats only an "if". Ive heard of how easy it used to be back at the time of the prophet, yet look at us now. Just the though of marriage makes almost every muslim family tremble.

but I wouldn't say lower standards.

Debatable. But i would definitly suggest it for both men and women as it would allow us to be more accepting of one another and allow us to focus on islamic values even more.

Is that what's hindering women from getting married? Apps with background checks?

hahaha. maybe wasnt my best example, but its definite one of the important processes to consider when getting married. how many times have we heard about parents marrying off their daughters to a guy they thought was good but turned out that he wasnt? how many times have we heard of these cases ending in divorce or even worse? How many times have we heard of men and women being rejected because their parents dont know about them well enough? It (background checking) is a major factor when it comes to marriage and making that process easier will definitely have an impact on the marriage process ...

Why would islamic leaders be obligated to help men with the mahr?

Are you unaware that the welling being of the entire islamic society is the responsibility of the islamic leaders? If we are going to act so harsh towards men and not help them with their responsibility then how on earth are we to except them to feel compassion and love for their spouses when they have received non from the community? Why would we expect them to stay true and loyal to the community when the community has done nothing for them except telling them to man up and take responsibility for their obligations?

but what type of environment do you think the people were in pre-Islam?

Honestly? i think it was a blessed time when they were supported by the grade of Allah and through the best man that walked this earth. Unlike us were at the end of time, the muslim believer who holds on to his faith is like that who wholes on to a burning piece of coal.

Overall, i do understand where your coming from, but i still believe that the scholars of today are not playing their role properly in making marriage easier for the youth and in other general matters of islam.

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[cinnamonrolls1]

ChosenTCO, i agree with what you're saying tbh abt the marriage thing. I think its wayyyy to hard now tbh and i think maybe folk should lower their standards

[Supernova]

ChosenTCO, i agree with what you're saying tbh abt the marriage thing. I think its wayyyy to hard now tbh and i think maybe folk should lower their standards

I think you need to put an @ symbol before the name so "ChosenTCO" can see it on the notifications

[*charisma*]

Agreed. But the problem is that the scholars arent promoting both sides of the problem equality. They stress so much about how haram it is to have premarital relations but they barely say anything about making marriage easy for the youth! That is why there is a problem. You yourself said it, they are not following the deen correctly(because they are not both sides of the problem equally enough), muslims just chose to follow the part that benefits the parents of the daughter and neglect the youth's desires. They should also be stressing about the importants of making marriage easy as well. They are not following ISLAM properly.

Marriage is optional/non-compulsory. Refraining from haram, however, is an obligation, so it should be promoted more considering every which way there is fitnah. Marriage is not the cure to every issue that brothers face today. Some of them go into marriage with the same issues that they entered in it with. It actually can magnify their situation. So while marriage is a beautiful thing and can be helpful and is encouraged in some instances, it's not the only option. That being said, when it does come time to get married and find a spouse, I can see how it is difficult to do when every part of the community which is meant to help is not really putting in the effort. I wouldn't put the blame on just one part of the community though as you're doing. Everyone can contribute and improve.

Disagree. If this were true, then the concept of marketing and advertisements in general would not be real or needed. Everybody would just search for the information they need and thats it. However, even in islam you got so many different opinions you just cant escape with one opinion without reading its counter part.

We already have islam, it's a matter of actually implementing what we learn. And as for scholars teaching, they are teaching, but are people actually seeking their guidance? Have you actually voiced your concerns legitimately to any person of knowledge and heard their response? You're speaking from one perspective, but we don't know what they go through and the type of people they have to deal with/help. Marriage is just one aspect of life that we need guidance on and it would be futile for someone to study Islam for years and years and only cater to those who can't find spouses. Even I wouldn't know where to start. I'd have to bring in the entire family and speak to them to see where the problem lies. No one has time for that lol. You can do that for yourself.

When it comes to marriage it's not really that intricate. If anything, it's logical and common sense. Be pious, be respectful, be kind and patient, work hard, etc. You don't need to go to a scholar to do/know these things. You may need people to remind you from time to time, but that's on you to surround yourself with such people.

Agreed. But thats only an "if". Ive heard of how easy it used to be back at the time of the prophet, yet look at us now. Just the though of marriage makes almost every muslim family tremble.

I wouldn't say it makes them tremble lol. But today it can be more complex because ideals are changing.

hahaha. maybe wasnt my best example, but its definite one of the important processes to consider when getting married. how many times have we heard about parents marrying off their daughters to a guy they thought was good but turned out that he wasnt? how many times have we heard of these cases ending in divorce or even worse? How many times have we heard of men and women being rejected because their parents dont know about them well enough? It (background checking) is a major factor when it comes to marriage and making that process easier will definitely have an impact on the marriage process ...

Background checks have no basis. You can expect marriages to fail or turn sour but that's just life and often it has nothing to do with "background checks." There are still many successful marriages. You can ask the person important questions about their character directly and tell them your expectations. There's no reason for people to tiptoe around what they really want from their future partners when they get the chance to be forward. Really sometimes it just takes a bit of reflection and observation to tell what type of person someone is.

Are you unaware that the welling being of the entire islamic society is the responsibility of the islamic leaders? If we are going to act so harsh towards men and not help them with their responsibility then how on earth are we to except them to feel compassion and love for their spouses when they have received non from the community? Why would we expect them to stay true and loyal to the community when the community has done nothing for them except telling them to man up and take responsibility for their obligations?

What exactly are you referring to here? How do you want them to help? Give exact examples because I thought you were talking about actual hand outs for men to pay the mahr.
For compassion and love, do we not get enough from our mothers :p

Honestly? i think it was a blessed time when they were supported by the grade of Allah and through the best man that walked this earth. Unlike us were at the end of time, the muslim believer who holds on to his faith is like that who wholes on to a burning piece of coal.

Overall, i do understand where your coming from, but i still believe that the scholars of today are not playing their role properly in making marriage easier for the youth and in other general matters of islam.

I was referring to the state of the people pre-Islam, before prophet Muhammed pbuh. They were in a worse off state before Islam. So if they can overcome their bad habits and culture with the introduction if Islam, there's no reason why we can't today by actually following Islam properly.

- - - Updated - - -

The main problem here is, in non-Muslim countries it's impossible to get in touch with sisters. And this is a things, that has nothing to do with culture. Islam says, we shall not come near to adultery, bam. Lowering gaze, bam. I don't say this is not good, it is perfect system. But when it comes to finding a spouse it's an obstacle. There a two options. Finding someone over family, but what to do, when your family is unable to help? Ask brothers, hmm, they apparently don't care, why should they, they are already married. Last option, go to the mosque, but I am not going to the mosque to ask for a wife. So there is no option left and now try to abstain from that what Allah has prohibited. You need to rely to 100 per cent to other people, because you cannot to anything at your own, what is good for safety, but with this way you will stay single until your death. Look at me, it applies. I have no option, except asking Allah, but for some a reason Allah doesn't want me to marry. So, it's really frustrating. And even if you try to get in touch by lowering your gaze and not talking to the sister, you get criticized. Everyone is good a speaking and criticizing..., but helping, no.


wa alaikum assalam

I don't like to generalize because every family is different. However, do you think that sometimes the issue is not that people are useless but that they don't see you as being compatible with the people they know? For example, say there is someone who has some bad qualities about him or is still quite immature but wants to get married, and when he asks the people around him he gets no help from them and assumes that they are putting no effort in assisting him. What would be the solution to such a situation?? Should the family blatantly tell him he's immature and no girl will have him? This is just one example, but there could be many reasons about why the family is not helpful. In the end though I can't say that families do not want their sons to get married, it's just a matter of under what conditions are they willing to genuinely support them? This is something to reflect on.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you ChosenTCO;

They should also be stressing about the importants of making marriage easy as well. They are not following ISLAM properly.

Why should getting married be easy? I have only been married for thirty two years, the first thirty two years are hard, then it just gets harder. Marriage requires a huge amount of patience, compromise, forgiveness, love and understanding. It is so easy to give up and walk away when the going gets tough. Prayer helps.

Blessings
Eric

[*charisma*]

Greetings and peace be with you ChosenTCO;


Why should getting married be easy? I have only been married for thirty two years, the first thirty two years are hard, then it just gets harder. Marriage requires a huge amount of patience, compromise, forgiveness, love and understanding. It is so easy to give up and walk away when the going gets tough. Prayer helps.

Blessings
Eric

One day he will have a beautiful daughter or son, raise them for years, and see them as his whole world, and we will see then how easy it will be for him to give them away to just anyone who asks :D

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you *charisma*;

One day he will have a beautiful daughter or son, raise them for years, and see them as his whole world, and we will see then how easy it will be for him to give them away to just anyone who asks :D

That sounds like you are talking from experience.:D:

blessings
Eric

[00001001]

When have you seen the umma provide apps

I actually launched a website called HalalMatchmaking, it was a website where people could simply filter based on things like country, age, amount of Islamic knowledge, if he/she smokes, if the man has a beard etc. etc. (see image for full list for males). Long story short, I had to shut it down since it hardly got any members. Maybe the market is saturated, wrong platform (maybe an app was beter) or simply no demand? Anyway, there are people who genuinely try to help the Ummah, altough it doesn't always end as intented.

Now working on an health app that makes people lose weight and/or gain muscle. Maybe I'll try an app version of the matchmaking website in the future, not sure though.

Attachment 6363

[cinnamonrolls1]

I think there are apps and various online websites

Sent from my [device_name] using IslamicBoard mobile app

[Misbah-Abd]

All I got from the OP is he really wants to follow his whims and desires and imitate the kuffar but wants to blame scholars for it.

[xboxisdead]

One day he will have a beautiful daughter or son, raise them for years, and see them as his whole world, and we will see then how easy it will be for him to give them away to just anyone who asks :D

That is how women attack men is through his children. Worst thing a man can ever do is love his children, because it put him in a point of weakness where his woman will use the children to control him and if a divorce happens use the children as means to hurt him the most. Children are powerful weapon that belongs to women to hurt men. You cannot deny that.

Tell me if it is a lie of stories after stories after stories when a divorce happen that the mother use the very children at the beginning of marriage at the end to make the children hate their fathers, cut ties with their fathers and society in general doesn't even come to the aid. So please, don't make it look like it is all bells and whistles. Children is a further stress to men that will harm him when divorce happens.

Also don't think children is all that great either:



By the way, more shaming tactics towards men will be..."So what? Women go through birth and she sacrifice for her children, be a man and take it. It doesn't come close to what a mother goes through." Isn't that what you guys do to further devalue men's role and strip him from any right and devalue him and make him another further doormat to be used and abused. Men will have to MAN UP now doesn't he?

[Supernova]

Hahaha! Honestly, I don’t like this labeling at all, but if you must know I fit under the regular/average sunni muslim.

I don’t follow any specific scholars or madhabs because I feel like they are all made up by human beings that are very well fallible. Add to that the element of misunderstanding and miscommunication and you get rulings and things that are very morphed and extreme ideologies. But thats not the worst part.

The thing that annoys me the most is when modern scholars keep warning us about the haram things, yet neglect to give halal substitutes for that which is haram. Every time when a new technology or idea or concept that immerge, scholars are quick to deem it haram without proper investigation or substitutes for it. It just makes the world harder and harder to live in.

The simplest example I can offer is to look at the problem of marriage and premarital relations. How many times have we seen new things that immerge which promotes and simplify premarital relations (i.e. porn, one night stands, dating apps, pickup artists)? And how many times have we got things from scholars and Islamic leaders that help the youth get married and encouraging it? When was the last time you’ve seen as scholar asking parents to lower their standards of potential spouses for their daughters? When have you seen the umma provide apps or methods for the young muslim girls to background check their potential spouses? When have you seen Islamic leaders help the muslim men with their mahr for marriage? And if there are, why aren’t these things being promoted just as much as the haram things and warnings about them are?

Oh boy, I just went off on a rant there and didn’t realise … lol. Anyways … point im trying to make is that, I don’t follow any specific madhabs or scholars because I feel like most of them are disconnected from reality and dont provide reasonable or compatible solutions to our modern-day issues of the world. And how could they when they have disconnected themselves so much from the rest of the world and only surround themselves with pious people that don’t see 10 feet beyond their sphere of influence to where the true fitna lies (which is actually where most people live and reside)?

Asalaamualaykum, Very good post.

Although you have rightfully identified issues - your search of the solution is misplaced.

The very establishment of a solution, is totally based on the functionality of the constituents for it to be a success.

Islam in general appeals to 4 levels of a Muslim.

a) The Shariah Law - That which is practised in public. (Self explanatory)
b) The Shariah Law - That which is practised in privacy. (Making Whudu before Salaah
c) Zikr of Allah SWT but still practised outwardly - doing a good deed in privacy
d) Zikr of Allah in total privacy whereby even someone on the outside has no idea whats in the heart.

To Explain myself here, I will take you back in time. In those days - a football when purchased was totally flat. you had to use an air pump and pump air into the valve and in about 5 minutes you had a bouncing functional ball. The football was made of elements, The inner inflatable (balloon like) "bladder" and then the outer leather casing. When you pumped the ball with air, you actually inflated the casing which in turn expanded and inflated the outer leather casing. The "bladder" was hidden and concealed from the eye and all a person could see was the inflated outer leather casing. Take the ball bounce it and it was functional.

A little prank we used to play on friends, was to push a pin or matchstick into the ball and deflate the air - The bladder used to collapse but still left the outer leather case "inflated". The victim used to come - hold the ball, and bounce it !!! As you can imagine - it never bounced and came back up. It just stuck to the ground.

The point is, for the ball to be functional, it took the hidden inner casing to be inflated. In the same way points (A and B) above represent the leather outer case and points (C and D) represent the inner case. Without inflating the inner case, on the first bounce the ball squashes up.

The problem is not whether you follow a madhab or not. Neither is the solution.

When the inner part of someone has justice, Haq, Adl , upright, honest Etc ( The inner bladder of the ball)then collectively the society inflates into fulfilling the outward Shariah (Leather shell of the ball). The end result is a solid functional system ( A bouncing ball).

Example: Pertaining to marriage as you have mentioned: Here in UK over 3 decades - various bodies have implemented marriage sessions, marriage meetings of potential spouses etc and Alhumdulila a percentage worked but the majority failed...WHY ? because most of the guys going there were fooling around using it as initial contact to mess girls about - even to the point that guys were bringing fake fathers pretending to be their dads, The young guys hitting on muslimahs and their "dads" hitting on elder divorcees !!!! (The mothers) Imagine that !!!

The point is the reason the Ulema don't implement these things is because they know the masses of Muslims are corrupted in the hearts (in that bladder of the ball) and until you don't recitify that "bladder" you just manufacturing leather balls that wont bounce !!!!

Look at what times have become - 30 years ago An Aalim would give a talk, after that Zikr was made, Durood was given, they ate together with the masses implementing as many Sunnah as you can, after that people sat in circles with books and hadith and you had a galaxy of Ulema in gatherings that you could consult and ask questions.......Fast forward that 30 years later today....what do you have ? Flamboyant stages with celeb status scholars . after that talk they snap a few selfies here and there, shake a few hands....jump in the cars and gone !!! And the people come out thinking "I know the Quran" ......

You can line up NAK, Hamza Yusuf , Tablighi Jamaath, Berelwis, Wahabis, Salafis, Sheikh one name right up to Sheikh Another name all in one room .....the bottom line is brother.....All of them put together cannot make the Zikr of Allah SWT for you. You have to do it yourself !!! You have to engage beyong A and B into C and D (above points).

You can implement a million solutions with a million establishments but the solution is only functional and viable when the participants have Haq, Adl, Honesty, integrity, upright and have Allah in the hearts. If the participants are corrupt - they will eventually corrupt the system.

Allah SWT will only change the conditions of man WHEN man changes himself.

Everyone wants the Ilm today - but the REAL Tassawuf ( nothing to do with Sufism, I'm talking real tasawauf) gets put into the "too hard basket"

[Zafran]

salaam

I honestly think that whole marriage thing is out of controls and the society and culture you live dictates how one gets marriad - the scholars can advice and tell people what is within the bounds of shariah but ultimately its up to the wider community to solve this problem

Hyper sexual world with porn, hook up culture and then you have slow arranged marriages trying to compete with that. - its a very big problem. Sadly I have no solutions lol.

[ChosenTCO]

Marriage is optional/non-compulsory. Refraining from haram, however, is an obligation, so it should be promoted more considering every which way there is fitnah. Marriage is not the cure to every issue that brothers face today. Some of them go into marriage with the same issues that they entered in it with. It actually can magnify their situation. So while marriage is a beautiful thing and can be helpful and is encouraged in some instances, it's not the only option. That being said, when it does come time to get married and find a spouse, I can see how it is difficult to do when every part of the community which is meant to help is not really putting in the effort. I wouldn't put the blame on just one part of the community though as you're doing. Everyone can contribute and improve.

Marriage is indeed option, but when the person starts to fear falling into temptation then it becomes mandatory. And we all know that for most of us, releasing these urges is more of a need than a want (except for those extreme cases where a person is asexual or has been dismissed sexually). So refraining from haram should not be our primary way to handle it as it is only a temporary solution. It is better to practice the prevention method (marry early) than the cure (refraining from haram for God knows how long). As for blaming one part of the community, id say that if the entire umma is facing these problems, then the problem isn’t with them … its with the methods they are led with or what they are being led to.

We already have islam, it's a matter of actually implementing what we learn. And as for scholars teaching, they are teaching, but are people actually seeking their guidance? Have you actually voiced your concerns legitimately to any person of knowledge and heard their response? You're speaking from one perspective, but we don't know what they go through and the type of people they have to deal with/help. Marriage is just one aspect of life that we need guidance on and it would be futile for someone to study Islam for years and years and only cater to those who can't find spouses. Even I wouldn't know where to start. I'd have to bring in the entire family and speak to them to see where the problem lies. No one has time for that lol. You can do that for yourself.

When it comes to marriage it's not really that intricate. If anything, it's logical and common sense. Be pious, be respectful, be kind and patient, work hard, etc. You don't need to go to a scholar to do/know these things. You may need people to remind you from time to time, but that's on you to surround yourself with such people.

I know that they are teaching and am well aware of it, but they are preaching about only half of what is actually important. Okey here is one of my odd examples but I hope it illustrates my point in a better way.

If a person wants to sell you a product (ie marriage), first he must convince you why its beneficial to you (already done a thousand times by scholars). But if the person wants you to actually go through with buying it, he must first inform you of how to buy it and make the process of purchasing it easy (and that’s what the scholars lack in talking about and trying to do), else … even if the product was beneficial to you, you might be discourage by how difficult it is to obtain and buy.

Im not asking for the scholars to go knocking on muslim households offering potential spouses for their children nor am I asking them to come show me a live example of how a nikkah happens on themselves. I am simply asking for them to promote how to make marriage easier for the youth so that they would choose it over haram things. And that’s far from whats happening. In most of muslim and arab households, even the mention of falling in love with someone is considered taboo or something, let alone marriage itself. You may not realise it because maybe you’ve been married already and forgot about it or maybe have different standards and norms than most muslims don’t, but this is the reality! The majority of the youth gets criticized by their parents when the mention of love or marriage is brought up … only when the daughter becomes too old for marriage in some regions do parents start actively taking part in finding a spouse for her, but by then she has probably done something haram or lost her peak value in the marriage pool. (we both know that this is not of islam and I am very well aware of that, yet I am telling you this is the reality and this needs to be dealt with and countered!)

Background checks have no basis. You can expect marriages to fail or turn sour but that's just life and often it has nothing to do with "background checks." There are still many successful marriages. You can ask the person important questions about their character directly and tell them your expectations. There's no reason for people to tiptoe around what they really want from their future partners when they get the chance to be forward. Really sometimes it just takes a bit of reflection and observation to tell what type of person someone is.

I was not referring to those cases where the flame of passion dies out between the married couple. I was actually referring to those cases where the parents marry off their daughter to a person that they thought was a pious man but turns out to be a double faced, deceitful person who is actually an alcoholic/smoker/womanizer/never prays, etc. And believe me, you have no idea how many times these things happen in the world today … Perhaps you are unaware of it and that’s why you think background checks are not important, but if you have lived with other people outside a circle of pious individuals, you would most certainly know what im talking about.

What exactly are you referring to here? How do you want them to help? Give exact examples because I thought you were talking about actual hand outs for men to pay the mahr.
For compassion and love, do we not get enough from our mothers

Giving hand outs IS a form of care. It shows compassion for those in need! Im not saying that we should give hand outs for every person that wants to get married. It should only be given to those who are truly in need and not those who are lazy sitting on their bumz thinking that Allah will shower them with money by his grace. Ofc that’s not what im implying! But we should still try to guide our youth on how to be responsible for themselves and chase after what will help them attain what they need … for example, helping them find jobs …

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salaam

Hyper sexual world with porn, hook up culture and then you have slow arranged marriages trying to compete with that. - its a very big problem. Sadly I have no solutions lol.

Thats exactly the problem i wanted to highlight, but i personally believe that scholars can do a bit more than to just give advice to the umma. With the number and magnitude of their followers, their voices and opinions would be of value to the real people in authority and power. The opinions can help change the countries rules and legislation to make the halal more easy and the haram more difficult to obtain. ... Perhaps that is a lot to ask for, but i guess when you are in a place and time like me(a person who is really getting affected by these problem), you might think of things like that.:hmm::exhausted

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Asalaamualaykum, Very good post.

Although you have rightfully identified issues - your search of the solution is misplaced.

The very establishment of a solution, is totally based on the functionality of the constituents for it to be a success.

Islam in general appeals to 4 levels of a Muslim.

a) The Shariah Law - That which is practised in public. (Self explanatory)
b) The Shariah Law - That which is practised in privacy. (Making Whudu before Salaah
c) Zikr of Allah SWT but still practised outwardly - doing a good deed in privacy
d) Zikr of Allah in total privacy whereby even someone on the outside has no idea whats in the heart.

To Explain myself here, I will take you back in time. In those days - a football when purchased was totally flat. you had to use an air pump and pump air into the valve and in about 5 minutes you had a bouncing functional ball. The football was made of elements, The inner inflatable (balloon like) "bladder" and then the outer leather casing. When you pumped the ball with air, you actually inflated the casing which in turn expanded and inflated the outer leather casing. The "bladder" was hidden and concealed from the eye and all a person could see was the inflated outer leather casing. Take the ball bounce it and it was functional.

A little prank we used to play on friends, was to push a pin or matchstick into the ball and deflate the air - The bladder used to collapse but still left the outer leather case "inflated". The victim used to come - hold the ball, and bounce it !!! As you can imagine - it never bounced and came back up. It just stuck to the ground.

The point is, for the ball to be functional, it took the hidden inner casing to be inflated. In the same way points (A and B) above represent the leather outer case and points (C and D) represent the inner case. Without inflating the inner case, on the first bounce the ball squashes up.

The problem is not whether you follow a madhab or not. Neither is the solution.

When the inner part of someone has justice, Haq, Adl , upright, honest Etc ( The inner bladder of the ball)then collectively the society inflates into fulfilling the outward Shariah (Leather shell of the ball). The end result is a solid functional system ( A bouncing ball).

Example: Pertaining to marriage as you have mentioned: Here in UK over 3 decades - various bodies have implemented marriage sessions, marriage meetings of potential spouses etc and Alhumdulila a percentage worked but the majority failed...WHY ? because most of the guys going there were fooling around using it as initial contact to mess girls about - even to the point that guys were bringing fake fathers pretending to be their dads, The young guys hitting on muslimahs and their "dads" hitting on elder divorcees !!!! (The mothers) Imagine that !!!

The point is the reason the Ulema don't implement these things is because they know the masses of Muslims are corrupted in the hearts (in that bladder of the ball) and until you don't recitify that "bladder" you just manufacturing leather balls that wont bounce !!!!

Look at what times have become - 30 years ago An Aalim would give a talk, after that Zikr was made, Durood was given, they ate together with the masses implementing as many Sunnah as you can, after that people sat in circles with books and hadith and you had a galaxy of Ulema in gatherings that you could consult and ask questions.......Fast forward that 30 years later today....what do you have ? Flamboyant stages with celeb status scholars . after that talk they snap a few selfies here and there, shake a few hands....jump in the cars and gone !!! And the people come out thinking "I know the Quran" ......

You can line up NAK, Hamza Yusuf , Tablighi Jamaath, Berelwis, Wahabis, Salafis, Sheikh one name right up to Sheikh Another name all in one room .....the bottom line is brother.....All of them put together cannot make the Zikr of Allah SWT for you. You have to do it yourself !!! You have to engage beyong A and B into C and D (above points).

You can implement a million solutions with a million establishments but the solution is only functional and viable when the participants have Haq, Adl, Honesty, integrity, upright and have Allah in the hearts. If the participants are corrupt - they will eventually corrupt the system.

Allah SWT will only change the conditions of man WHEN man changes himself.

Everyone wants the Ilm today - but the REAL Tassawuf ( nothing to do with Sufism, I'm talking real tasawauf) gets put into the "too hard basket"

Wow! MashAllah, i really never thought of it that way. It kinda opened up for me a new point of view.

I also wasnt aware that the situation was this bad in some places ... FAKE FATHERS?!

But your right, without observing Taqwaa (Point D and the others), all the efforts of the scholars wont make much of a difference in the person.

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All I got from the OP is he really wants to follow his whims and desires and imitate the kuffar but wants to blame scholars for it.

And all i got from you is that you have a shallow understanding and low comprehensive skills. Go read my post again. If i cared about my whims and desires i wouldnt be sitting here discussing the problems facing the umma or even bother with blaming the scholars, i would be out there fulfilling my "whims and desires". Im actually here discussing this because i care. unlike people who shun people down for having different opinions from theirs and not even bothering to give a useful/beneficial remark ^o)

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That is how women attack men is through his children. Worst thing a man can ever do is love his children, because it put him in a point of weakness where his woman will use the children to control him and if a divorce happens use the children as means to hurt him the most. Children are powerful weapon that belongs to women to hurt men. You cannot deny that.

Tell me if it is a lie of stories after stories after stories when a divorce happen that the mother use the very children at the beginning of marriage at the end to make the children hate their fathers, cut ties with their fathers and society in general doesn't even come to the aid. So please, don't make it look like it is all bells and whistles. Children is a further stress to men that will harm him when divorce happens.

Also don't think children is all that great either:



By the way, more shaming tactics towards men will be..."So what? Women go through birth and she sacrifice for her children, be a man and take it. It doesn't come close to what a mother goes through." Isn't that what you guys do to further devalue men's role and strip him from any right and devalue him and make him another further doormat to be used and abused. Men will have to MAN UP now doesn't he?

No need for this aggression brother, im sure she means well.
Though she is true about it being difficult to give my son or daughter in marriage, I will never forget (by the grace of Allah) how i felt as a teen. And i will know that these feelings that i went through is probably the same ones that they will be having. And that is why i will be hasty in finding them a suitable spouse so that they dont fall in haram. :thumbs_up:statisfie

[*charisma*]

Greetings and peace be with you *charisma*;


That sounds like you are talking from experience.:D:

blessings
Eric

No not there yet lol. But I can empathize.

That is how women attack men is through his children. Worst thing a man can ever do is love his children, because it put him in a point of weakness where his woman will use the children to control him and if a divorce happens use the children as means to hurt him the most. Children are powerful weapon that belongs to women to hurt men. You cannot deny that.

Tell me if it is a lie of stories after stories after stories when a divorce happen that the mother use the very children at the beginning of marriage at the end to make the children hate their fathers, cut ties with their fathers and society in general doesn't even come to the aid. So please, don't make it look like it is all bells and whistles. Children is a further stress to men that will harm him when divorce happens.

Also don't think children is all that great either:

By the way, more shaming tactics towards men will be..."So what? Women go through birth and she sacrifice for her children, be a man and take it. It doesn't come close to what a mother goes through." Isn't that what you guys do to further devalue men's role and strip him from any right and devalue him and make him another further doormat to be used and abused. Men will have to MAN UP now doesn't he?

Completely unrelated topic. But glad you got that out of your system :D

salaam

I honestly think that whole marriage thing is out of controls and the society and culture you live dictates how one gets marriad - the scholars can advice and tell people what is within the bounds of shariah but ultimately its up to the wider community to solve this problem

Hyper sexual world with porn, hook up culture and then you have slow arranged marriages trying to compete with that. - its a very big problem. Sadly I have no solutions lol.

I see porn coming up over and over again used as an excuse. I'm a female, I've never come across having to look at or watch porn ever in my life. I do understand what you're saying in general though and it's true..we are in a hypersexual society more so now than before, but under what circumstances do brothers find they have an issue with this or are exposed to porn against their will??

Marriage is indeed option, but when the person starts to fear falling into temptation then it becomes mandatory. And we all know that for most of us, releasing these urges is more of a need than a want (except for those extreme cases where a person is asexual or has been dismissed sexually). So refraining from haram should not be our primary way to handle it as it is only a temporary solution. It is better to practice the prevention method (marry early) than the cure (refraining from haram for God knows how long). As for blaming one part of the community, id say that if the entire umma is facing these problems, then the problem isn’t with them … its with the methods they are led with or what they are being led to.

If you have the resources to get married, get married. No one is telling you not to. But if you cannot, then do you really have a choice other than to refrain from haram? And there are a million other things you can do to keep yourself occupied from committing haram acts. I'm not a guy so I can't 100% speak on the urges men face, but we all have our weaknesses and there shouldn't just be one way to prevent our downfall.

But if the person wants you to actually go through with buying it, he must first inform you of how to buy it and make the process of purchasing it easy (and that’s what the scholars lack in talking about and trying to do), else … even if the product was beneficial to you, you might be discourage by how difficult it is to obtain and buy.

I disagree with you here because the responsibility for this specific thing is not on the scholars. The way you get married is detailed in the Sunnah. A man who really wants to get married, and I mean truly, legitamitely, with all of the maturity it requires, will be prepared for it in EVERY. SINGLE. WAY, from it's acceptance to it's rejection. You want them to embellish the idea of marriage, but the reality is marriage is not something which needs embellishment. The mahr should not be extravagant, I agree, but again this is already in the Sunnah. The people should be willing and open, again I agree, and again it is already outlined in the Sunnah and Quran. You want them to teach Muslims that marriage is wonderful and it will save you from sins, etc. etc. but the reality is every marriage is unique and different. It definitely has it's benefits, but to really obtain those benefits you have to be PREPARED as a PROPER MUSLIM, because a benefit for example, could be gaining patience during GREAT difficulty/trial. Just because you are married doesn't mean the trials of fitnah end. You will experience fitnah for the rest of your life, marriage does not stop it. From fitnah, you can be attracted to another woman and unattracted to your own wife. So you need to establish your foundation of marriage BEFORE you get married. And no one can ever help you do that but yourself. Get what I'm saying? There is no embellishment in marriage but it absolutely is preferable than wasting your emotions on haram love. I can't tell you marriage is going to be perfect for you and it will "save you" so that your mind focuses on that instead of the haram because your mind should never be focused on the haram in the first place. So where does the encouragement for marriage come from? You talk about it as if the only reason to get married is to refrain from urges. It is much more than that, and this is what you need to understand. Your intentions in everything should be first and foremost to please Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Say even if you were prepared to be married, and for whatever reason you just couldn't; It wasn't written for you; It's not in your destiny...what do you do?? Do you just lead a haram life?? No. You persevere and you continue with your life because it should not be dependent on whether you get married or not. YOu find an alternative to live a life that fulfills your obligations as a Muslim. And I know you want to have something to look forward to, I get that, but in those cases you also have to remember this life is quite temporary.

I was not referring to those cases where the flame of passion dies out between the married couple. I was actually referring to those cases where the parents marry off their daughter to a person that they thought was a pious man but turns out to be a double faced, deceitful person who is actually an alcoholic/smoker/womanizer/never prays, etc. And believe me, you have no idea how many times these things happen in the world today … Perhaps you are unaware of it and that’s why you think background checks are not important, but if you have lived with other people outside a circle of pious individuals, you would most certainly know what im talking about.

I know, but how do you know that there was no background check done in those cases as well?? Or that the person just changed after marriage? Or that his wife wasn't active in helping him change..etc. Likewise, those types of people could become better after marriage. Not praying, womanizing, smoking, etc can't really be hidden. I mean a woman can't be that gullible. And it's actually weird that you say that because "background checks" is one of the reasons that people are having a hard time getting married. If you're from a different culture, and I don't know anyone who knows you, why in the world would I let you marry my son/daughter? Or if the people who knew the "sinful" you were asked about your character and you have since repented, how does that work in your favor? It doesn't. That's the idea of where background checking fails. Also, if you know those types of people, then you have an obligation to help them change their ways. If a close relative like you is unable to do that, then you can't expect scholars to have an effect on them.

Giving hand outs IS a form of care. It shows compassion for those in need! Im not saying that we should give hand outs for every person that wants to get married. It should only be given to those who are truly in need and not those who are lazy sitting on their bumz thinking that Allah will shower them with money by his grace. Ofc that’s not what im implying! But we should still try to guide our youth on how to be responsible for themselves and chase after what will help them attain what they need … for example, helping them find jobs …

I still don't agree with that. Subhanallah the sunnah has allowed men to delay payment of the mahr, to give anything tangible as mahr, and stresses the importance of not making the mahr or weddings extravagant. THe rest is on the people. Bros should be saving for their mahr while they are young and their parents should be encouraging them. They should be making sincere du'a and praying istikhara. And to be completely honest, the world is wide and vast..there are tons of women who would be willing to get married with very little if mahr is the issue. It's just a matter of preference I guess. A lot of what you're asking to be taught, should be taught by your parents. And when you come of age and realize right from wrong and understand issues, then it's on you to teach yourself what you haven't been taught whether it is by attending lectures, searching, asking questions..whatever. And if the people around you aren't willing to find you a wife, maybe there's a legit reason for that and no one is actually giving you any constructive criticism to your face.

[Zafran]

I see porn coming up over and over again used as an excuse. I'm a female, I've never come across having to look at or watch porn ever in my life. I do understand what you're saying in general though and it's true..we are in a hypersexual society more so now than before, but under what circumstances do brothers find they have an issue with this or are exposed to porn against their will??

Its everywhere and so is hook up culture - if your not married then its a serious temptation especially if there is no halal outlet. It also depends what age group your part of because kids and teens nowadays are a lot more exposed to it then in the past when there was no Internet. I live in the UK so I'm not sure where you live or how old you are but its getting worse - Mix that with culture (caste, old ideas) and you dont have Halal solution. Basically stuck it 2 extremes.

I'm not even getting into the war with feminism and patriarchal culture that is another headache.

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Thats exactly the problem i wanted to highlight, but i personally believe that scholars can do a bit more than to just give advice to the umma. With the number and magnitude of their followers, their voices and opinions would be of value to the real people in authority and power. The opinions can help change the countries rules and legislation to make the halal more easy and the haram more difficult to obtain. ... Perhaps that is a lot to ask for, but i guess when you are in a place and time like me(a person who is really getting affected by these problem), you might think of things like that.

I'm not sure what country your from but this will not work in places like UK or US where the scholars at best are advisers and have very little power on the culture of the people. I would even argue they have very little power outside people that directly follow them.

[ChosenTCO]

If you have the resources to get married, get married. No one is telling you not to. But if you cannot, then do you really have a choice other than to refrain from haram? And there are a million other things you can do to keep yourself occupied from committing haram acts. I'm not a guy so I can't 100% speak on the urges men face, but we all have our weaknesses and there shouldn't just be one way to prevent our downfall.



I disagree with you here because the responsibility for this specific thing is not on the scholars. The way you get married is detailed in the Sunnah. A man who really wants to get married, and I mean truly, legitamitely, with all of the maturity it requires, will be prepared for it in EVERY. SINGLE. WAY, from it's acceptance to it's rejection. You want them to embellish the idea of marriage, but the reality is marriage is not something which needs embellishment. The mahr should not be extravagant, I agree, but again this is already in the Sunnah. The people should be willing and open, again I agree, and again it is already outlined in the Sunnah and Quran. You want them to teach Muslims that marriage is wonderful and it will save you from sins, etc. etc. but the reality is every marriage is unique and different. It definitely has it's benefits, but to really obtain those benefits you have to be PREPARED as a PROPER MUSLIM, because a benefit for example, could be gaining patience during GREAT difficulty/trial. Just because you are married doesn't mean the trials of fitnah end. You will experience fitnah for the rest of your life, marriage does not stop it. From fitnah, you can be attracted to another woman and unattracted to your own wife. So you need to establish your foundation of marriage BEFORE you get married. And no one can ever help you do that but yourself. Get what I'm saying? There is no embellishment in marriage but it absolutely is preferable than wasting your emotions on haram love. I can't tell you marriage is going to be perfect for you and it will "save you" so that your mind focuses on that instead of the haram because your mind should never be focused on the haram in the first place. So where does the encouragement for marriage come from? You talk about it as if the only reason to get married is to refrain from urges. It is much more than that, and this is what you need to understand. Your intentions in everything should be first and foremost to please Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Say even if you were prepared to be married, and for whatever reason you just couldn't; It wasn't written for you; It's not in your destiny...what do you do?? Do you just lead a haram life?? No. You persevere and you continue with your life because it should not be dependent on whether you get married or not. YOu find an alternative to live a life that fulfills your obligations as a Muslim. And I know you want to have something to look forward to, I get that, but in those cases you also have to remember this life is quite temporary.



I know, but how do you know that there was no background check done in those cases as well?? Or that the person just changed after marriage? Or that his wife wasn't active in helping him change..etc. Likewise, those types of people could become better after marriage. Not praying, womanizing, smoking, etc can't really be hidden. I mean a woman can't be that gullible. And it's actually weird that you say that because "background checks" is one of the reasons that people are having a hard time getting married. If you're from a different culture, and I don't know anyone who knows you, why in the world would I let you marry my son/daughter? Or if the people who knew the "sinful" you were asked about your character and you have since repented, how does that work in your favor? It doesn't. That's the idea of where background checking fails. Also, if you know those types of people, then you have an obligation to help them change their ways. If a close relative like you is unable to do that, then you can't expect scholars to have an effect on them.




I still don't agree with that. Subhanallah the sunnah has allowed men to delay payment of the mahr, to give anything tangible as mahr, and stresses the importance of not making the mahr or weddings extravagant. THe rest is on the people. Bros should be saving for their mahr while they are young and their parents should be encouraging them. They should be making sincere du'a and praying istikhara. And to be completely honest, the world is wide and vast..there are tons of women who would be willing to get married with very little if mahr is the issue. It's just a matter of preference I guess. A lot of what you're asking to be taught, should be taught by your parents. And when you come of age and realize right from wrong and understand issues, then it's on you to teach yourself what you haven't been taught whether it is by attending lectures, searching, asking questions..whatever. And if the people around you aren't willing to find you a wife, maybe there's a legit reason for that and no one is actually giving you any constructive criticism to your face.

Okay, so here is what i understood from yourpost in general (and you can correct me if im wrong). You emphasize on the factthat marriage is not obligatory hence we should not promote it as much as wepromote the warnings of doing haram. You seem to suggest that just becausemarriage helps in making a halal outlet for the sexual desires of people, itshould not be portrayed as the only solutions as there are other problems thataccompany marriage such as the burden or responsibility and providing for thefamily and all of these extra chores. Your basically saying that marriage has alot more problems to it than the benefit of sexual pleasure and what not, thusit shouldnt be regarded as the solution.

Lets look at how a normal conversation between ateen and the arab community goes ...
1- teen requests to get married because they arestarting to feel like adults underneath their belt. They are told to get a holdof themselves because they are being immature and just hormonal. They shouldwait until they become a bit older when their brains are more developed.
2- The teen becomes a young adult then requeststo get married again. They are asked if they have a good academic status first.The young adult then goes off to develop their academia.
3- By then the young adult has entered their mid20s and looks for a spouse again. They are asked, do you have a decent incometo support a family? The young adult then goes off to work their bums off todevelop their career so that they get paid a decent amount to support a family.
4- By that time this person has probably reachedthe age of 30 or 35 years old without a husband or wife.
5- By then when that person proposes to someone,(if he is a man) he is told "your too old for my daughter" or (if sheis a women) she is told "your too old to bare children of my son".

ALL this because we dont trust these young adultsthat they will be able to support themselves and their spouses in the future.ALL of this because we still have this stupid concept that marriage is only forthose who wants to start a family and shouldnt be for 2 who simply love eachother and just want to be together. All this because we cant stand the thoughtof having a couple that are incapable of living together at least for the timethey are trying to progress their academia. (just a side note to that, see if youcan ask your parents how old they were when they got married, chances are theyprobably got married around the age of 22 or younger. Meanwhile today we arebeing forced to wait even longer than that all the while haram things aregetting easier and easier to obtain)

And with regards to your comment about porn. Youd be surprised how easily guys get exposed to pornography these days. Maybe its not the same for women but its getting worse for them too. I am a clear example of how bad things have become. I, for one, heard about pornographic things at the age of 9 or 10 (before I even knew how babies were made) and was exposed to it at around 12 through my peers at school (some whom were older and others younger). I was so oblivious to it back then I thought it was something new in this world and that islam doesn’t know about it or says anything regarding that matter, let alone knew whether it was haram or halal. I finally got the talk about “IT” by the age of 14 or 15, but by then I was already hooked. I didn’t think too much of its prohibition since I was only warned about it a few times. Later on, when I started to actually think for myself I searched about it and found out how haram and big of a deal it really was. I was bombarded with videos that call people to watch these things every name in the book. Disease hearted, soul corrupted, deviant, non Islamic, muslim faker, transgressor … and the list goes on. As you can imagine the amount of self-hatred that’s started to develop within me overwhelmed me. I started losing my focus in education, the bonds I had with my family worsened, I started to develop depression, started inflicting physical pain to force myself to stop (if I told you what kind of things I did to myself you’d throw up!) and much more, but to no avail. So many bad things happened to me since then. Worst of all? I started resenting islam because it was conflicting with what I have fallen pray too and brought me nothing but an internal mini war in my brain that caused me much pain! AND ALL BECAUSE OF WHAT?

This all could have been avoided if the umma didn’t have that kind of stigma about these topics. If they were able to openly discuss solutions to these problems without getting all worked up about it. If I was taught earlier by my parents about these things, I wouldn’t have exposed myself to these things willingly before I knew it was haram. And guess where this stigma comes from? Probably from their forfathers who were also taught the same way that we were, … through the scholars of islam and their successors. Through stigma and awkwardness, and look were that method got the umma to? If we keep ignoring these problems and discard them as feelings that can be easily overcome by our will then we will have a serious problem on our hands like we do now. If there isn’t a legitimate outlet to these feelings in a world that amplify these desires insanely then we will be sure to find the majority of the people facing this problems finding illegitimate ways to go about fulfilling these desires.


I apologize if I may seem a bit aggressive in this post but its only because I have experienced the problems that come out of this way of thinking and I have suffered immensely from these limitations (this topic truly strike a nerve for me and hits me hard to my core). My main concern in this post is to let you know that marriage is a much needed solution to fix the very problem of all sexual desires that affect the youth ( I am aware of that marriage can actually amplify these desires, but that problem goes under a different heading. Marriage is meant to address the basic need of sex and other needs, not a cure to psychological problems). So it shouldn’t be thought of as a tool that’s only meant to start a family and not meant for lovers who want to just be together. Because it is meant for people like that as well. And as for my initial post, that was meant to address the problems of misunderstanding and misinterpretation OF, and BY the scholars. The way I see it … it is because of the umma’s short comings that I had to go through what I suffered, and it is because of the scholars and their successor’s short comings that brought the umma to this state. The funny thing is that in the end, I am the one that gets blamed for all I went through. I am the one that gets called “Disease hearted, soul corrupted, deviant, non Islamic, muslim faker, transgressor”! And its my fault that I didn’t do enough research that could have saved me all this even though I was only 12. And for those who will say “but its your parents fault, not the entire umma.” Guess what? My parents are also part of this umma and they were taught about islam the same way that most of the umma do if not better!

No more will I allow myself to be judged and affected by the umma for their short comings. No more will I allow myself to blindly follow fatwas made by knowledgeable people who used to live 5 centuries ago and don’t know anything about the current world is today. No more will I allow myself and wellbeing to be at the mercy of the umma who cant even tolerate each other for having different opinions. Even if that means that id have to become a scholar myself! I will go through all that just to avoid what I suffered from self hatred and depression. Because out of all the things ive mentioned, it is that(depression and self conflict/hatred) which hurt me the most.

Edit:

During the heat of the moment of angry. I incorrectly blamed the scholars of the past. I apologize for that. What i have an issue with is when our modern scholars still use the old supplementary rulings of the previous scholars to govern new problems that emerge in our world today. These rulings are sometimes incompatible and cause great problems for the umma. The other problem is that these modern scholars are also (based on what i have heard and understood) unwilling to give new fatwas that would deal with the problems hindering our society today out of fear that they dont want to change the religion and the rulings that were passed down from our forfathers that seemed to work well with them or, if they must, they usually give the safety fatwa which deems things haram based on very basic reasoning and logic.

I do understand the immense responsibility of giving a new ruling and all, but it is still their responsibility as leaders of the umma to guide us. And if they are going to make everything haram and difficult then dont expect people support of follow everything these scholars say. Because at one point, if these scholars keep tightening the circle of halal on the muslims then some of them might break.

Again i do apologize for blaming the previous scholars of our deen. But majority of their supplimentary rulings cannot be used for our world today as it was meant for their time and conditions. If the olama' wants us to still follow their rulings then the umma needs to bring back the conditions of the world our forfathers used to live in else the previous rulings have to be amended or changed and in both cases im more than willing to help!

[new2010]

I don't like to generalize because every family is different. However, do you think that sometimes the issue is not that people are useless but that they don't see you as being compatible with the people they know? For example, say there is someone who has some bad qualities about him or is still quite immature but wants to get married, and when he asks the people around him he gets no help from them and assumes that they are putting no effort in assisting him. What would be the solution to such a situation?? Should the family blatantly tell him he's immature and no girl will have him? This is just one example, but there could be many reasons about why the family is not helpful. In the end though I can't say that families do not want their sons to get married, it's just a matter of under what conditions are they willing to genuinely support them? This is something to reflect on.

Assalamulaikum,

thanks for yours thoughts sister,

I question myself always, whether I am mature or not. Not just in regard to marriage, generally. And I live in a society where people become mature very late actually. I would say, I'm mature. However, I could be more mature, I need to improve there is no doubt. And I am working on that. People can not really judge on that, because the brothers I meet are only at my workplace, otherwise I don't socialize with people much. When I told a brothers, I want to get married and it's very hard, they actually just say, ask that one brother who's already married, may be his wife knows someone, but that's all. Then I go to another brother, who barely knows me, because we have just shallow conversations at work. He agrees with me that it's hard and he had even difficulties to find his spouse. But nothing more happens. I don't think they think I am immature because, they cannot know me that good. The other brother he knows me better, but I think he's more aimless than me. He himself married really really late.

When it comes to my parents, they want me get married. When I was younger I asked my mother, but she was like, "what do you know about marriage, do you know how hard that this", she didn't support me. Now she's pressurizing me, when do you want to get married. Even it's not my fault. My parents start looking for a wife so late, it's no wonder that nothing happens. It even might last for years to find someone suitable. My Parents don't think I am immature, they just don't know anyone. My mom found some over an Islamic course that took part in our neighbourhood - this girls got recommended my the other sisters. But without meeting the family or getting in touch, nothing happened. The one said, she wants to finish uni, the other one, she is not ready or something like that. I get "rejected" without them knowing me; so it cannot me personal. I haven't seen one of the girls or spoke to them.

Than my family says, we can find someone in our country we're originally from. But I don't want that. Because we would rely to an Imam, that we barely know. Even I don't want to marry a sister from my originally country, because I don't know the language that good. And it's difficult because of a different culture. This is so sad, even my family in my originally country doesn't know anybody. There ARE girls but they don't practice the religion, don't cover. I don't expect anyone perfect, this is not possible, but my mom comes even with girls that don't pray, don't cover properly and are even possibly not really beautiful, and says: May be she will start practising through you. Aha, and what when not? I am not taking such a risk and headache sorry. Some who claims to be very religious and don't pray or cover properly, sorry, but that doesn't fit. We're not perfect, but I want to grow in my marriage and get some support and motivation from my spouse and give that back. However, this not possible with someone who doesn't practice at all. And let's be honest, may be I'm wrong but it is not more fun to pray with someone you really like share the same bed? May be I am wrong, too naive, too inexperienced.

To the discussion: I think the scholars can not arrange all marriages. It's our elder brothers and sisters who are responsible. Sometimes I think they just have forgotten how unmarried people do feel. Normally, they have to come to you and try to direct you. You know like: "Brother, you came to this and that age, don't you consider marriage, I know someone, who might be suitable...", but mashaAllah they speak about Islam and how the leader just mess up everything. Dude, don't look at the leaders, just look at your own family what is a mess. You can not lead your own family and backbite about leaders who try to lead a nation. THAT'S OUR PROBLEM!!! Dealing with stuff that is irrelevant to us. Just deal with your surrounding, organize your family help brothers in your surrounding. That is what Allah says, when he speaks, that he will not change the situation of the Ummah, when we not change ourself. Try to be part of building a healthy society and you will see, that the macro level will even chance, bithiniAllah.

I actually had a chance to get marriage, a brother - mashaAllah - told me he knows a sister who want to get married and if you have interested. But I denied, because, set me the goal the be knowledgeable before I get married. That happend six years ago. Nonetheless, I don't regret it, because this is also Qadr of Allah.

Let's say, I have seen a sister at work (first gaze) and I have seen she is dressing well. So I got interested, without knowing anything about her or looked at her in detail. And I even don't know whether she's religious or not -> clothing says nothing. Is there an Islamic way of getting in touch with her? Would that be inappropriate? For example finding out something about her? But here is the problem, I don't want to speak to women directly, that inappropriate, but I cannot send I brother to her....

[00001001]

Lets look at how a normal conversation between ateen and the arab community goes ...
1- teen requests to get married because they arestarting to feel like adults underneath their belt. They are told to get a holdof themselves because they are being immature and just hormonal. They shouldwait until they become a bit older when their brains are more developed.
2- The teen becomes a young adult then requeststo get married again. They are asked if they have a good academic status first.The young adult then goes off to develop their academia.
3- By then the young adult has entered their mid20s and looks for a spouse again. They are asked, do you have a decent incometo support a family? The young adult then goes off to work their bums off todevelop their career so that they get paid a decent amount to support a family.
4- By that time this person has probably reachedthe age of 30 or 35 years old without a husband or wife.
5- By then when that person proposes to someone,(if he is a man) he is told "your too old for my daughter" or (if sheis a women) she is told "your too old to bare children of my son".

Seems I'm only at stage 2.

I fully agree with you. Add on top of all this the fact that the parents want a certain ethnicity in countries where that specific ethnicity sums up to only 0.5% or less of the population and you've got yourself a recipe for disaster.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's say, I have seen a sister at work (first gaze) and I have seen she is dressing well. So I got interested, without knowing anything about her or looked at her in detail. And I even don't know whether she's religious or not -> clothing says nothing. Is there an Islamic way of getting in touch with her? Would that be inappropriate? For example finding out something about her? But here is the problem, I don't want to speak to women directly, that inappropriate, but I cannot send I brother to her....

There is nothing wrong with going up to her and asking for her father's number. Look at khadija, she wanted to ask Muhammed pbuh, but was too shy. So she asked a female friend to ask for her. If khadija can do it, I'm sure you can too.

You might hesitate to ask for her father's number, because it sounds a bit weird. But it will only sound weird to any non practicing sister/brother, so see it as a test if she has the intention to get married and not fool around.

Just my two cents.

[*charisma*]

Okay, so here is what i understood from yourpost in general (and you can correct me if im wrong). You emphasize on the factthat marriage is not obligatory hence we should not promote it as much as wepromote the warnings of doing haram. You seem to suggest that just becausemarriage helps in making a halal outlet for the sexual desires of people, itshould not be portrayed as the only solutions as there are other problems thataccompany marriage such as the burden or responsibility and providing for thefamily and all of these extra chores. Your basically saying that marriage has alot more problems to it than the benefit of sexual pleasure and what not, thusit shouldnt be regarded as the solution.

In a perfect world, I genuinely would want everyone who wants to get married to be able to do so and for Allah to increase their blessings.
The reality of it though is that marriage is NOT destined for everyone. In which case, marriage is NOT their solution. So what happens then? Tell me.

For those who are destined to get married, in it there are trials just like any other blessing we get in this world. If the only purpose you see in marriage is for it to satisfy your sexual desires, then your marriage will fail or struggle because you have neglected to strengthen/generate the other important aspects of marriage.

So with that being said, in the downtime that you're not able to find a suitable wife, you should be working towards being a great future husband, a devout worshipper, a respectful son, a patient and grateful slave, etc.

This may sound crazy, but the way I think about it is that from the day you decided that you wanted to get married, you should have started saving for a mahr. You should have been working to support your future wife because the mahr is just the tip of the iceberg of what you will need to support your future family. You should be making sincere du'a that Allah grants you contentment with his decree no matter what it is, or to make you deserving of marriage, etc. You should be respectful to your parents in the highest degree. If they do something wrong due to culture, then kindly guide them towards the correct way. You should refrain from committing acts of haram because every time you commit something haram you steal from your marriage and your akhira, both of which you will lose if you don't protect your chastity. You can do all of this even if you have not yet been granted a wife. At least if you don't get married, the mahr can be used to perform hajj and the good deeds you do will build you a house and grant you a beautiful wife in jannah. You should be quite independent of anyone else because you really don't need anyone's permission to get married (apart from the girl's father). If you can get it together, who's to really say anything or be unsupportive?

So there's no doubt in my mind, that if a man is truly like this that Allah will forsaken him.

Lets look at how a normal conversation between ateen and the arab community goes ...
1- teen requests to get married because they arestarting to feel like adults underneath their belt. They are told to get a holdof themselves because they are being immature and just hormonal. They shouldwait until they become a bit older when their brains are more developed.
2- The teen becomes a young adult then requeststo get married again. They are asked if they have a good academic status first.The young adult then goes off to develop their academia.
3- By then the young adult has entered their mid20s and looks for a spouse again. They are asked, do you have a decent incometo support a family? The young adult then goes off to work their bums off todevelop their career so that they get paid a decent amount to support a family.
4- By that time this person has probably reachedthe age of 30 or 35 years old without a husband or wife.
5- By then when that person proposes to someone,(if he is a man) he is told "your too old for my daughter" or (if sheis a women) she is told "your too old to bare children of my son".

What I see these days is that from the teenage years to the young adult years, the son distances himself from his family unit. He wants to experiment, may have an attitude/be disrespectful, carries a lot of anger, etc. And then after his parents have lost their trust in him, he wants to ask for help when he hasn't really established a good image with them. Another issue is that girls are generally more mature than guys are at that age and therefore prefer someone older. I personally don't have an issue with couples getting married and studying together. It would probably be ideal. I don't think anyone would really have an issue with it if the guy is independent or has a viable plan.

ALL this because we dont trust these young adultsthat they will be able to support themselves and their spouses in the future.ALL of this because we still have this stupid concept that marriage is only forthose who wants to start a family and shouldnt be for 2 who simply love eachother and just want to be together. All this because we cant stand the thoughtof having a couple that are incapable of living together at least for the timethey are trying to progress their academia. (just a side note to that, see if youcan ask your parents how old they were when they got married, chances are theyprobably got married around the age of 22 or younger. Meanwhile today we arebeing forced to wait even longer than that all the while haram things aregetting easier and easier to obtain)

Do you have someone in mind of who you want to marry?

I apologize if I may seem a bit aggressive in this post but its only because I have experienced the problems that come out of this way of thinking and I have suffered immensely from these limitations (this topic truly strike a nerve for me and hits me hard to my core). My main concern in this post is to let you know that marriage is a much needed solution to fix the very problem of all sexual desires that affect the youth ( I am aware of that marriage can actually amplify these desires, but that problem goes under a different heading. Marriage is meant to address the basic need of sex and other needs, not a cure to psychological problems). So it shouldn’t be thought of as a tool that’s only meant to start a family and not meant for lovers who want to just be together. Because it is meant for people like that as well. And as for my initial post, that was meant to address the problems of misunderstanding and misinterpretation OF, and BY the scholars. The way I see it … it is because of the umma’s short comings that I had to go through what I suffered, and it is because of the scholars and their successor’s short comings that brought the umma to this state. The funny thing is that in the end, I am the one that gets blamed for all I went through. I am the one that gets called “Disease hearted, soul corrupted, deviant, non Islamic, muslim faker, transgressor”! And its my fault that I didn’t do enough research that could have saved me all this even though I was only 12. And for those who will say “but its your parents fault, not the entire umma.” Guess what? My parents are also part of this umma and they were taught about islam the same way that most of the umma do if not better!

I can understand that you have a lot of pent up anger about your past, but you didn't know and it may be that Allah will forgive you for your ignorance at that age. Sometimes when we are able to repent from such grave sins it makes us stronger believers and worshippers. It opens our eyes and allows us not to fall into anything worse. You are older now, so you should see the importance of knowledge and how it can prevent sins. You can use what you've learned and help others. Your reaction to protect yourself is by gravitating to the idea of marriage, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's something to be respected and revered, but my whole point is that in the meantime you should be mending the things that are breaking you and become a stronger person. I'm speaking to you as I'd speak to my younger brother. I wouldn't want you to be the bare minimum of what a husband is, but to exceed your potential because you have the time and resources to do so despite whether you find a wife or not. If you died tomorrow, what have you built with your time? What would be your excuse? That you didn't get married? You have to believe that when it's your time to get married, you will be married whether you want it or not, whether your parents or community support it or not. If it is meant for you it will happen by Allah's decree and no one can take that away. But the situations you are able to control now you should do the best with them. :)

- - - Updated - - -

Walaikum Assalam,

Than my family says, we can find someone in our country we're originally from. But I don't want that. Because we would rely to an Imam, that we barely know. Even I don't want to marry a sister from my originally country, because I don't know the language that good. And it's difficult because of a different culture. This is so sad, even my family in my originally country doesn't know anybody. There ARE girls but they don't practice the religion, don't cover. I don't expect anyone perfect, this is not possible, but my mom comes even with girls that don't pray, don't cover properly and are even possibly not really beautiful, and says: May be she will start practising through you. Aha, and what when not? I am not taking such a risk and headache sorry. Some who claims to be very religious and don't pray or cover properly, sorry, but that doesn't fit. We're not perfect, but I want to grow in my marriage and get some support and motivation from my spouse and give that back. However, this not possible with someone who doesn't practice at all. And let's be honest, may be I'm wrong but it is not more fun to pray with someone you really like share the same bed? May be I am wrong, too naive, too inexperienced.

Don't you think you make it more difficult for yourself when you have prejudices about the girls before you even meet them? You can at least give it a chance. Even if it doesn't work out, you'd know that you put the effort. Without the effort, how do you expect to meet someone that is meant for you?

Let's say, I have seen a sister at work (first gaze) and I have seen she is dressing well. So I got interested, without knowing anything about her or looked at her in detail. And I even don't know whether she's religious or not -> clothing says nothing. Is there an Islamic way of getting in touch with her? Would that be inappropriate? For example finding out something about her? But here is the problem, I don't want to speak to women directly, that inappropriate, but I cannot send I brother to her....

I think every girl is different in the way she will react to someone who wants to approach them for marriage, but if your intentions are pure, and your gaze is lowered, and you're not in a private space, you could talk to her directly. Keep it "business-like" and respectful. You could ask her for her father's number. Alternatively, you can also have your mother (or sister if you have one) approach her and speak with her. If one of your friends has a sister/wife, maybe ask if she could message her about you and see if she'd be interested. If there is agreement then you can sit down with the presence of her wali and get to know the type of person she is. I think that's the safest option and least direct. May Allah make things easy for you ameen.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you ChosenTCO;

I, for one, heard about pornographic things at the age of 9 or 10 (before I even knew how babies were made) and was exposed to it at around 12 through my peers at school.

Oscar Wilde famously said, I can resist everything...........except temptation, and he was a grown man when he said this. Children at the age of 9 -10 are exposed to drugs and alcohol too, sadly when children are exposed to temptation, the problems seem more profound, and their problems carry on through life. It is said that a big percentage of mental health problems start from childhood.

Because out of all the things ive mentioned, it is that(depression and self conflict/hatred) which hurt me the most

.
Allah has given us all a conscience, because some things are just wrong, and they are wrong because they can destroy us. Allah wants us all to be compassionate, kind patient and loving, so fight all battles and struggles with kindness and compassion.

Lord grant me the peace and serenity to live with the things I cannot change.
Give me the courage to change the things I can.
And the wisdom to know the difference.

The first line of the prayer.
You can't change the past, what has been done cannot be undone, you can't change other people. So try and live in peace with all these struggles.

The second line
You can shape your present and your future. Deep down you know what is right, you sound like a good person, your conflict and depression is there to help you. The person you can change the most is ME, but it takes courage to change ourselves.

The last line of the prayer is probably the most important, the wisdom to know the difference. If you want to change the things that you cannot change, this will lead to depression and self destruction.

Pray for help and guidance to do the will of Allah, then all things will fall into place.

Blessings
Eric

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Greetings and peace be with you *charisma*;

Very wise words as always.

Blessings
Eric

[ChosenTCO]

In a perfect world, I genuinely would want everyone who wants to get married to be able to do so and for Allah to increase their blessings.
The reality of it though is that marriage is NOT destined for everyone. In which case, marriage is NOT their solution. So what happens then? Tell me.

For those who are destined to get married, in it there are trials just like any other blessing we get in this world. If the only purpose you see in marriage is for it to satisfy your sexual desires, then your marriage will fail or struggle because you have neglected to strengthen/generate the other important aspects of marriage.

So with that being said, in the downtime that you're not able to find a suitable wife, you should be working towards being a great future husband, a devout worshipper, a respectful son, a patient and grateful slave, etc.

This may sound crazy, but the way I think about it is that from the day you decided that you wanted to get married, you should have started saving for a mahr. You should have been working to support your future wife because the mahr is just the tip of the iceberg of what you will need to support your future family. You should be making sincere du'a that Allah grants you contentment with his decree no matter what it is, or to make you deserving of marriage, etc. You should be respectful to your parents in the highest degree. If they do something wrong due to culture, then kindly guide them towards the correct way. You should refrain from committing acts of haram because every time you commit something haram you steal from your marriage and your akhira, both of which you will lose if you don't protect your chastity. You can do all of this even if you have not yet been granted a wife. At least if you don't get married, the mahr can be used to perform hajj and the good deeds you do will build you a house and grant you a beautiful wife in jannah. You should be quite independent of anyone else because you really don't need anyone's permission to get married (apart from the girl's father). If you can get it together, who's to really say anything or be unsupportive?

So there's no doubt in my mind, that if a man is truly like this that Allah will forsaken him.




What I see these days is that from the teenage years to the young adult years, the son distances himself from his family unit. He wants to experiment, may have an attitude/be disrespectful, carries a lot of anger, etc. And then after his parents have lost their trust in him, he wants to ask for help when he hasn't really established a good image with them. Another issue is that girls are generally more mature than guys are at that age and therefore prefer someone older. I personally don't have an issue with couples getting married and studying together. It would probably be ideal. I don't think anyone would really have an issue with it if the guy is independent or has a viable plan.




Do you have someone in mind of who you want to marry?


I can understand that you have a lot of pent up anger about your past, but you didn't know and it may be that Allah will forgive you for your ignorance at that age. Sometimes when we are able to repent from such grave sins it makes us stronger believers and worshippers. It opens our eyes and allows us not to fall into anything worse. You are older now, so you should see the importance of knowledge and how it can prevent sins. You can use what you've learned and help others. Your reaction to protect yourself is by gravitating to the idea of marriage, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's something to be respected and revered, but my whole point is that in the meantime you should be mending the things that are breaking you and become a stronger person. I'm speaking to you as I'd speak to my younger brother. I wouldn't want you to be the bare minimum of what a husband is, but to exceed your potential because you have the time and resources to do so despite whether you find a wife or not. If you died tomorrow, what have you built with your time? What would be your excuse? That you didn't get married? You have to believe that when it's your time to get married, you will be married whether you want it or not, whether your parents or community support it or not. If it is meant for you it will happen by Allah's decree and no one can take that away. But the situations you are able to control now you should do the best with them. :)

I feel like you are very close to being on the same page as me, but you keep circling around the same methodology that wont reap us much benefit in the long run. All of the solutions and reasoning you gave about the problems mentioned are very sound and logical, but it still doesnt attack the problem at its core. For example: you mentioned how teenagers become less trusted because they detach themselves from their families, have disrespectful attitudes and carry anger and agression. You mentioned how men should start saving for their mahr and start working to have a stable income for them to be desirable to women. You mentioned that people who cant find marriage should learn to refrain from haram things. All are logical points that fixes these on going problems in our society but it never attacks the roots of the problem

What im suggesting is that instead of letting the teenager become so disrespectful and always angry and then blame them for their actions, we should try and help them find those things that makes them like that and fix it (that way the teenager will have more trust towards us and rely on us even more than before). Instead of not trusting the young adult to get a decent job and then wait for his pay to be even better, we should trust that he will do his part in trying to find a decent earning in the future and make tawakul on Allah that he will provide for the young couple from where they do not know or expect. Just like our parents and grandparents who used to get married as well (we all have to go through hardship and its part of what makes the bond between the couple grow. They support each other!). Else if we keep this mentality, we should also remember that even if the man gets a decent job and pay, the day he gets married he might also get terminated from his job by the decree of Allah, so we should not have that mentality and make tawakul instead. This way of thinking completely eliminates the problem of forcing the young adults to wait even longer before marriage and exposes them to fitna. And as for refraining from haram, its much easier if we just made the halal easier to obtain than exposing ourselves to the haram for prolonged periods of time and suffering the risk of maybe failing to refrain from it one day. Why dont we just eliminate the need of refraining and risking ourself by just eliminating the haram desire all together? By marrying these people so that they don’t have the urge to release these desires else where other than what is right in front them?

I hope you are starting to see my logic behind the solutions I give and the benefits that it can reap us. Teaching our kids to refrain from the haram will not get rid of the urges, but granting an easy halal outlet for these desires will always keep the urges at bay … and that’s how you fix the root of the problem, by controlling the cause(urge) and not the symptoms(falling into haram).

And as for those who seem to be destined not to get married ... imagine how much their numbers will decrease once we make marriage more easy to achieve?

In the end, i still want to stress that i do acknowledge that your solutions are very logical, but only if its meant to be suppress the problems, not fix it.

[xboxisdead]

I feel like you are very close to...

I have a question to ask you. Just a simple question. Say in the future more and more and more laws strip men his rights in marriage and say you combine it with Japanese way of marriage. How does Japanese way of marriage work? A man work his heart out and when he is married the wife takes 100% salary and he cannot hide from her, it is solid close sealed that she have access to all his wealth and he only get salary of $10.00 a month where he spends on himself and the rest of the money she spends it on herself, in her investment and the children and the husband is nothing more than a mule working. Would you still get married? Let us put it even further than that, in Japan the man is nothing more than a head figure only but the real leadership is the wife and the female in the household. It is a matriarchal setting and the husband is just a figurehead you put on the table as his head wobbles but the wife is the one the drive the bus. Would you still get married? Assume for argument sake you would not get married, would you die? You would go frail? Would you commit suicide? Would you go into killing spree? Would you suffocate because you are not married?

If you do then please ignore the rest of this message and continue in your posts but if the answer is no then why are you so immanent to marriage exactly? Marriage is an endless ungrateful responsibilities and you are at fault of everything that goes wrong and don't think you will get a thanks for your effort and when you die you long will be forgotten. Why are you sell hill-bend in marriage is beyond me. A man in this day an age is a fool to getting married. I really don't understand these men's obsession of marriage is beyond me ^o) Remember the more you need something the more you are putting yourself into weakness and the more the other person have the upper hand on you.

[Misbah-Abd]

I have a question to ask you. Just a simple question. Say in the future more and more and more laws strip men his rights in marriage and say you combine it with Japanese way of marriage. How does Japanese way of marriage work? A man work his heart out and when he is married the wife takes 100% salary and he cannot hide from her, it is solid close sealed that she have access to all his wealth and he only get salary of $10.00 a month where he spends on himself and the rest of the money she spends it on herself, in her investment and the children and the husband is nothing more than a mule working. Would you still get married? Let us put it even further than that, in Japan the man is nothing more than a head figure only but the real leadership is the wife and the female in the household. It is a matriarchal setting and the husband is just a figurehead you put on the table as his head wobbles but the wife is the one the drive the bus. Would you still get married? Assume for argument sake you would not get married, would you die? You would go frail? Would you commit suicide? Would you go into killing spree? Would you suffocate because you are not married?


If you do then please ignore the rest of this message and continue in your posts but if the answer is no then why are you so immanent to marriage exactly? Marriage is an endless ungrateful responsibilities and you are at fault of everything that goes wrong and don't think you will get a thanks for your effort and when you die you long will be forgotten. Why are you sell hill-bend in marriage is beyond me. A man in this day an age is a fool to getting married. I really don't understand these men's obsession of marriage is beyond me ^o) Remember the more you need something the more you are putting yourself into weakness and the more the other person have the upper hand on you.

Brother, you posts about marriage have been harsh. Is this because of some bad experience that you had in a previous marriage?

[new2010]

There is nothing wrong with going up to her and asking for her father's number. Look at khadija, she wanted to ask Muhammed pbuh, but was too shy. So she asked a female friend to ask for her. If khadija can do it, I'm sure you can too.

You might hesitate to ask for her father's number, because it sounds a bit weird. But it will only sound weird to any non practicing sister/brother, so see it as a test if she has the intention to get married and not fool around.

Just my two cents.

I think every girl is different in the way she will react to someone who wants to approach them for marriage, but if your intentions are pure, and your gaze is lowered, and you're not in a private space, you could talk to her directly. Keep it "business-like" and respectful. You could ask her for her father's number. Alternatively, you can also have your mother (or sister if you have one) approach her and speak with her. If one of your friends has a sister/wife, maybe ask if she could message her about you and see if she'd be interested. If there is agreement then you can sit down with the presence of her wali and get to know the type of person she is. I think that's the safest option and least direct. May Allah make things easy for you ameen.

I think this is not an good idea. Most people will get it the wrong way. Unfortunately I had done such a similar thing a couple of years ago. I got criticized by an Imaam for that. That was the first and last time I approached a woman personally. Even I lowered my gaze and didn't speak to her, obviously it was wrong.

So, there is no way for me except, sticking to asking Allah for guidance in that matter. But it has one good aspect: I can work on myself in the meanwhile. I just hope that Allah will not test me for any longer in that matter, because I really feel emotionally need to get married. Just want to have someone to share life and have this feeling of protection and head and security bi'idhnillah.

btw: Akhi, your're talking from Khadija, people nowadays, are not like that.

Nevertheless, thanks for your suggestions.

[xboxisdead]

Brother, you posts about marriage have been harsh. Is this because of some bad experience that you had in a previous marriage?

In additional to my personal experience with my two brothers. I don't want a woman tying my neck with shackles and I have to obey and submit to her...no thanks! I am an idiot :hiding::hiding::hiding: to even want this in my life. In this day an age it is suicide for men marrying and yet there are people like new2010 who is dying to get married :heated::heated:


The last thing I want is to be THAT:



Let us face it...men are replaceable resource that ones the woman have had enough of you you are disposed to be replaced. There is no respect or value in this world being a husband or father. You want to do it only because you are either lonely or want a family and that is your choice and you may convince yourself that is the duty of a man to self sacrifice as you get the benefit of a family and raise your kids, let me tell you that doesn't give me any satisfaction. Knowing I am not a human being when I am married just so I can raise a family, no thanks! Knowing I am single and I am a person and human and my house is my castle instead of having the worst place in the house as a man-cave when I am married, no thanks. Remember, when a divorce happen that child who lived under your roof 24/7 now will only talk to you ones a year or you see that child ones every month or every two to three month and the child will hate you or just need you for money and you will lose more than 50% of your wealth to that woman who was ones your wife and she can take all your wealth, why? Give me one reason what benefit a man to getting married. Sex? No thanks. Children? I can adopt..pfft. Wife? Every time I think of a wife I think of her carrying a frying pan, giving me her anger face and ready to smack my head with it and all fault is mine. No thanks.

[*charisma*]

Assalamu alaikum
@xboxisdead

I don't even know where to begin :D what a sad way to look at life through your eyes bro. Subhanallah...

I think this is not an good idea. Most people will get it the wrong way. Unfortunately I had done such a similar thing a couple of years ago. I got criticized by an Imaam for that. That was the first and last time I approached a woman personally. Even I lowered my gaze and didn't speak to her, obviously it was wrong.

So, there is no way for me except, sticking to asking Allah for guidance in that matter. But it has one good aspect: I can work on myself in the meanwhile. I just hope that Allah will not test me for any longer in that matter, because I really feel emotionally need to get married. Just want to have someone to share life and have this feeling of protection and head and security bi'idhnillah.

btw: Akhi, your're talking from Khadija, people nowadays, are not like that.

Nevertheless, thanks for your suggestions.

Why do you feel you've done something wrong when you haven't? https://islamqa.info/en/13791

What im suggesting is that instead of letting the teenager become so disrespectful and always angry and then blame them for their actions, we should try and help them find those things that makes them like that and fix it (that way the teenager will have more trust towards us and rely on us even more than before).

Unfortunately, sometimes we don't have control in that. Speaking from experience, if a bro wants to do something and his mind is already made up, it's difficult to tell him otherwise or for him to see the other perspective no matter how much you advise. At that age, they feel like they are already men and to prove it they want to do things their way. They don't feel completely understood or they feel that they know what's right for them more so than those who are advising them. I think also when people sin, they start to become secretive and it gets worse because they don't have someone who knows about it (because of their secrecy and distant nature) to scold them and stop them before it gets worse. Sometimes they even gravitate towards individuals who are bad influencers because they feel they can relate to them. Helping may have worked with you, but it doesn't work with everyone.

I don't disagree with what you say but the reason I say what I say is because this is what is relevant NOW. Before when our parents got married is a very different time under completely different circumstances, and in 10-20 years it will probably be very different than it is now. You'll never be able to control the culture around you. You can only control yourself and how much you allow it to affect you. It's futile to get angry about everything when it's beyond your control and you’ll never be able to change it. It’s written that society will be getting worse anyway, so while it is disheartening to think about, we have to be in check with our iman at all times. Nothing else in this world will suffice us except that. The best that you can do for the future is make sure your own children, your younger relatives, your friends, etc. don’t have to experience what you’ve experienced. But what is wrong with the world is something we all know and it’s harder to fix it than it is to point it out. We can only do our part.

Instead of not trusting the young adult to get a decent job and then wait for his pay to be even better, we should trust that he will do his part in trying to find a decent earning in the future and make tawakul on Allah that he will provide for the young couple from where they do not know or expect. Just like our parents and grandparents who used to get married as well (we all have to go through hardship and its part of what makes the bond between the couple grow. They support each other!). Else if we keep this mentality, we should also remember that even if the man gets a decent job and pay, the day he gets married he might also get terminated from his job by the decree of Allah, so we should not have that mentality and make tawakul instead.

I agree. Making tawakkul is a state of iman, so may allah increase us in tawakkul ameen.

This way of thinking completely eliminates the problem of forcing the young adults to wait even longer before marriage and exposes them to fitna. And as for refraining from haram, its much easier if we just made the halal easier to obtain than exposing ourselves to the haram for prolonged periods of time and suffering the risk of maybe failing to refrain from it one day. Why dont we just eliminate the need of refraining and risking ourself by just eliminating the haram desire all together? By marrying these people so that they don’t have the urge to release these desires else where other than what is right in front them?

I hope you are starting to see my logic behind the solutions I give and the benefits that it can reap us. Teaching our kids to refrain from the haram will not get rid of the urges, but granting an easy halal outlet for these desires will always keep the urges at bay … and that’s how you fix the root of the problem, by controlling the cause(urge) and not the symptoms(falling into haram).

And as for those who seem to be destined not to get married ... imagine how much their numbers will decrease once we make marriage more easy to achieve?

In the end, i still want to stress that i do acknowledge that your solutions are very logical, but only if its meant to be suppress the problems, not fix it.

I do want to point out something. I agree with what you're saying especially if there are two people who want to be together and want to save themselves from the fitnah, but there is the other aspect from the opposite gender that you're not considering. I think one of the reasons it is difficult for young brothers to get married is because sisters at that age (who are generally younger than bros) are indeed too young to be thinking about accepting marriage. Say a bro is 18 years old and he wants to get married, what is the age of the girl he wants to marry? It would probably be a girl 18 or younger. We generally don't experience the same issues that bros experience with regards to urges, so quite easily up to the age of 22, most do not want to get married because they don't feel the need to or they have other aspirations at the time. I personally know that even when they get proposals at a younger age (say 16-18 years old) many of them will vocalize that they don't want to get married until they graduate for example, or unless there is a suitable proposal that they just can't say no to (the guy is mature, attractive, pious, financially stable). At 18 many guys are very immature and we know that. It's not always the parents/society, but what girls want as well. So this does force the younger bros to wait or work harder. This isn't always the case though, but most of the time it is. But yes if there are two individuals who want to get married, it should be easy for them too. I do admit that sisters have a lot of power to vocalize what they want though regardless of society's expectations.

Would be much easier if the sisters just proposed, wouldn't it :D

[new2010]

Wa alaikum assalam,

Why do you feel you've done something wrong when you haven't? https://islamqa.info/en/13791

I don't know, because I got criticized by the Imaam. He asked me, if I would like it when someone would do such a thing to my own sister. If he would do it, as I have done it, I think I wouldn't have a problem with that. Honestly: I even don't know exactly how she looks. So there was no fitna at all involved, I hadn't even spoken to her except saying twice the salam. A thing of maybe 5 sec. My heart is calm in that regard. But he asked me that thing with my sister, and that made me sad, because I'm sure when he said that he considered the Hadith when a boy came to rasulAllah a.s and ask for permission to commit zinaa...

May be my Du'a is not powerful enough. I always ask Allah - even in Sujud - Ya Allah please give me a wife that is good for me and my religion. Should I add something to that? And I say the Dua rabbana atina fitdunya...

I generally don't care what people think about me, because it's important what Allah thinks about me. Nonetheless, I don't like critique from Imaams or knowledgeable brothers, because of, even if there is chance of going against the word of Allah I feel bad. Even if they are wrong with their critique. And I think they will think I am one of those who play with the religion.

[*charisma*]

I don't know, because I got criticized by the Imaam. He asked me, if I would like it when someone would do such a thing to my own sister. If he would do it, as I have done it, I think I wouldn't have a problem with that. Honestly: I even don't know exactly how she looks. So there was no fitna at all involved, I hadn't even spoken to her except saying twice the salam. A thing of maybe 5 sec. My heart is calm in that regard. But he asked me that thing with my sister, and that made me sad, because I'm sure when he said that he considered the Hadith when a boy came to rasulAllah a.s and ask for permission to commit zinaa...

That's a bit extreme what you said at the end, that he would think that way. I personally don't see anything wrong with it if it's done in a respectful way and I don't think there's anything against it as long as no fitnah is involved as outlined in the link I sent. You can make du'a but you still have to put the effort in making contact/proposing whether through yourself or through someone else like your mother, sister, etc.

[cinnamonrolls1]

I actually launched a website called HalalMatchmaking, it was a website where people could simply filter based on things like country, age, amount of Islamic knowledge, if he/she smokes, if the man has a beard etc. etc. (see image for full list for males). Long story short, I had to shut it down since it hardly got any members. Maybe the market is saturated, wrong platform (maybe an app was beter) or simply no demand? Anyway, there are people who genuinely try to help the Ummah, altough it doesn't always end as intented.

Now working on an health app that makes people lose weight and/or gain muscle. Maybe I'll try an app version of the matchmaking website in the future, not sure though.

Attachment 6363

Muscle tone as well? Woah thats super specific

[cinnamonrolls1]

All I got from the OP is he really wants to follow his whims and desires and imitate the kuffar but wants to blame scholars for it.

Not necessarily- he just wants it easier to get married, fair enough. Theres nothing wrong with using apps granted you're using them in a halal way.

[cinnamonrolls1]

That is how women attack men is through his children. Worst thing a man can ever do is love his children, because it put him in a point of weakness where his woman will use the children to control him and if a divorce happens use the children as means to hurt him the most. Children are powerful weapon that belongs to women to hurt men. You cannot deny that.

Tell me if it is a lie of stories after stories after stories when a divorce happen that the mother use the very children at the beginning of marriage at the end to make the children hate their fathers, cut ties with their fathers and society in general doesn't even come to the aid. So please, don't make it look like it is all bells and whistles. Children is a further stress to men that will harm him when divorce happens.

Also don't think children is all that great either:



By the way, more shaming tactics towards men will be..."So what? Women go through birth and she sacrifice for her children, be a man and take it. It doesn't come close to what a mother goes through." Isn't that what you guys do to further devalue men's role and strip him from any right and devalue him and make him another further doormat to be used and abused. Men will have to MAN UP now doesn't he?

Whaaa? Really? Did you just say women try to devaluate men because they dont give birth? Dude giving birth is not easy and i think you're over exagerating here. If you're so against kids dont have but dont rant at us about it. As for the women giving birth thing... You seem to be simplifying it a lot. Of coursw men and women deserve respect, but giving birth is one of the most hardest and difficult things someone can do,so i think we all get a little respect here

[cinnamonrolls1]

salaam

I honestly think that whole marriage thing is out of controls and the society and culture you live dictates how one gets marriad - the scholars can advice and tell people what is within the bounds of shariah but ultimately its up to the wider community to solve this problem

Hyper sexual world with porn, hook up culture and then you have slow arranged marriages trying to compete with that. - its a very big problem. Sadly I have no solutions lol.

Yes. Exactly. Its like we're trying to solve all issues with marriage

[00001001]

Muscle tone as well? Woah thats super specific

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. The women's menu even had an extra "muscular" option, aside from "normal" and "fit" since men aren't into that (at least I hope so).

Edit: Btw, aside from things like age, gender and location. Other options were optional, muscle tone one among them.

[xboxisdead]

Whaaa? Really? Did you just say women try to devaluate men because they dont give birth? Dude giving birth is not easy and i think you're over exagerating here. If you're so against kids dont have but dont rant at us about it. As for the women giving birth thing... You seem to be simplifying it a lot. Of coursw men and women deserve respect, but giving birth is one of the most hardest and difficult things someone can do,so i think we all get a little respect here

I never said giving birth is easy but Allah (Subhanahu Wa talaa) does not give women the ability to give birth just so she can use it as weapon against the men in their lives and cause cutting ties between father and children and nor did Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) gave women authority of the children over the father just so that she can use the children to manipulate the father by using his children or to force a man to be dad against his will and to take from him as much as money as possible and to use the children as men of getting rich or means of transferring all wealth from men to women. That is exactly what is happening here. Then when women somehow do better than men what is the first thing she says, "We don't need men!" or my favorite part "Men are unnecessary!" Man I love that line the most. Oh also the mantra that man are idiots and women are superior over men intellect and fathers are helpless without his wife and men can't raise children at all and the house will crumple without a woman all these devaluing the role of men and putting him down is what we have right now in Western society. My favorite and best reason why women should have full custody of children all the time because men don't know how to raise children or can't love the children better than a mother can. You are aware the majority of child rape and child abuse by the way comes from the mother. So much for that stereo type that women do better than men in raising children. All of these resulted in a society of single mothers, courts and laws that favor women against men and new and new generation of men simply opting out of marriage. Honestly if I am that worthless and useless because I don't have female part and my value in marriage is garbage and I have to obey and submit to some woman...no thanks! You are right....I don't want to get married!


Finally someone get it!!!!


Fathers are not second class parents!! That is my favorite line ever!!

[ChosenTCO]

I don't disagree with what you say but the reason I say what I say is because this is what is relevant NOW. Before when our parents got married is a very different time under completely different circumstances, and in 10-20 years it will probably be very different than it is now. You'll never be able to control the culture around you. You can only control yourself and how much you allow it to affect you. It's futile to get angry about everything when it's beyond your control and you’ll never be able to change it. It’s written that society will be getting worse anyway, so while it is disheartening to think about, we have to be in check with our iman at all times. Nothing else in this world will suffice us except that. The best that you can do for the future is make sure your own children, your younger relatives, your friends, etc. don’t have to experience what you’ve experienced. But what is wrong with the world is something we all know and it’s harder to fix it than it is to point it out. We can only do our part.

You are right sister. This will most probably get more difficult with time. Its just that I can see were the real problem lies and its solutions while most people insist on dismissing them. And that frustrates me a lot. Its like having a cure to a horrible disease but nobody is willing to spread it because it involves changing their lifestyle and norms … So sad. I once heard about a story of a sister who was a haafizah [ memorizer the entire Quran] who came to a sheikh seeking guidance on how to get an abortion because she fell into temptation … All because her parents didn’t accept any of the proposals she got cause they weren’t “suitable” or fitting to their standards. Look at how our parents and ummas is destroying the youth! :’( I know for a fact that iman is not enough to protect us from sin … but it seems like it’s the only options and weapon these youth have got against temptations these days … Allah al mosta’aan/المستعان (Allah is the one we seek help from). Sorry i got all worked up about this topic :hiding:

I do want to point out something. I agree with what you're saying especially if there are two people who want to be together and want to save themselves from the fitnah, but there is the other aspect from the opposite gender that you're not considering. I think one of the reasons it is difficult for young brothers to get married is because sisters at that age (who are generally younger than bros) are indeed too young to be thinking about accepting marriage. Say a bro is 18 years old and he wants to get married, what is the age of the girl he wants to marry? It would probably be a girl 18 or younger. We generally don't experience the same issues that bros experience with regards to urges, so quite easily up to the age of 22, most do not want to get married because they don't feel the need to or they have other aspirations at the time. I personally know that even when they get proposals at a younger age (say 16-18 years old) many of them will vocalize that they don't want to get married until they graduate for example, or unless there is a suitable proposal that they just can't say no to (the guy is mature, attractive, pious, financially stable). At 18 many guys are very immature and we know that. It's not always the parents/society, but what girls want as well. So this does force the younger bros to wait or work harder. This isn't always the case though, but most of the time it is. But yes if there are two individuals who want to get married, it should be easy for them too. I do admit that sisters have a lot of power to vocalize what they want though regardless of society's expectations.

Actually, I am very conscious of this problem and I have faced it before xD. The only girl I ever showed interest towards and asked her about marriage, she informed me that she is not considering marriage for herself at this age … AKA I got rejected. My female family relative also had that mentality and caring about her career and what not. But later on when she actually did start working, she realized that its not really a nice thing to chase after your living compared to having a husband to do it for you (cause males are usually the expendable ones I guess :s). Regardless, I personally believe that this is a dangerous trend that has plagued our society (im not suggesting that women shouldn’t have the right to work or raise their academic status, but you will see why its dangerous soon). This mentality originally came from the third wave feminism who are not only trying to promote for equal rights but are also trying to advocate for women to become independent from men and abandon the family concept. This is all bred from that fact that in their countries women used to be oppressed. They weren’t allowed to voice their opinion with men, they weren’t allowed to work, vote, talk in churches and much more (this is nothing like our deen ofc). Problem is that they are not only trying to bring back the balance, they are actually trying to reverse it on men. Whats even worse is that this idea is starting to appeal to many of the young girls of our umma, and they don’t know how harmful this concept is

The nature of men and women are very different. For men, our natural desire is to be providers or guardians over our families and wives, while for women its usually to nurture and care for her family and husband. {{ Quran 2:187 }} [ … They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them … ] So when the woman comes and become as good as men at providing for their families, the man will naturally feel emasculated as he is unable to provide something special for his family. That is why men usually find it undesirable to marry women with high status. (just like women don’t like to marry men with low status)

So in the end, when the woman raises her social, financial and everything status, she will still be looking for the guy that provides even more than what she already has. And when that is more than what the average male has, how many men left do you think will have the status she is looking for? And vise versa for men. Reducing the circle of possible potential spouses is one of the things that is making it more difficult to marry. Hence why this trend or way of thinking is a very dangerous one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tcghxvhS4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hbgBbIoUzc
Again, I want to stress on that fact the there is nothing wrong with a woman being successful, but if she plans on becoming independent then she should consider keeping her standards and expectations of men the same and not to raise them as she raises her status. A perfect example of this is Khadija (RA) the wife of the prophet (PBUH) where she was a business woman and agreed to marry the Prophet who barely had anything to show for at that time.

Would be much easier if the sisters just proposed, wouldn't it

YES! Yes sister that would be much better! XD

I have a question to ask you. Just a simple question. Say in the future more and more and more laws strip men his rights in marriage and say you combine it with Japanese way of marriage. How does Japanese way of marriage work? A man work his heart out and when he is married the wife takes 100% salary and he cannot hide from her, it is solid close sealed that she have access to all his wealth and he only get salary of $10.00 a month where he spends on himself and the rest of the money she spends it on herself, in her investment and the children and the husband is nothing more than a mule working. Would you still get married? Let us put it even further than that, in Japan the man is nothing more than a head figure only but the real leadership is the wife and the female in the household. It is a matriarchal setting and the husband is just a figurehead you put on the table as his head wobbles but the wife is the one the drive the bus. Would you still get married? Assume for argument sake you would not get married, would you die? You would go frail? Would you commit suicide? Would you go into killing spree? Would you suffocate because you are not married?

If you do then please ignore the rest of this message and continue in your posts but if the answer is no then why are you so immanent to marriage exactly? Marriage is an endless ungrateful responsibilities and you are at fault of everything that goes wrong and don't think you will get a thanks for your effort and when you die you long will be forgotten. Why are you sell hill-bend in marriage is beyond me. A man in this day an age is a fool to getting married. I really don't understand these men's obsession of marriage is beyond me. Remember the more you need something the more you are putting yourself into weakness and the more the other person have the upper hand on you.

With all respect brother, your way of thinking is the very outcome of the problems im trying to fight against. I know exactly what your talking about! I have seen how these modern countries strip men from everything they can show care for and trying to make it 100% female dominant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXQf2f2Yxo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFpYj0E-yb4

But you cannot roll over and abandon the concept in general as this may turn you into a herbivore feminine man just like the ones in japan. Nor can u become a neomasculine/mgtow man who are is completely self-centered and have zero respect for women. Try to bare patience with these problems and fight it for your future generation. Even if you fail, at least you would say that you’ve tried. I mean .. think about it, what a stale boring life you would live without someone to share your happy moments with? your sad ones, successful ones, hardships, times of illness, all these and you would still choose to be alone? if you think you are strong enough to lead such a life then by all means go for it. I personally started to think about marriage when i was going through rough times and wanted someone to be there for me someone other than my male friends or family members ... someone that could be much closer than that. ... But keep making someone want something for too long, it will only remind them of the bad times they needed/wanted it most but didnt get it and all the pain that came at that time, then they start hating it even if they get it. im very close to this stage unfortunately.

[xboxisdead]

You are right sister. This will most probably get more difficult with time. Its just that I can see were the real problem lies and its solutions while most people insist on dismissing them. And that frustrates me a lot. Its like having a cure to a horrible disease but nobody is willing to spread it because it involves changing their lifestyle and norms … So sad. I once heard about a story of a sister who was a haafizah [ memorizer the entire Quran] who came to a sheikh seeking guidance on how to get an abortion because she fell into temptation … All because her parents didn’t accept any of the proposals she got cause they weren’t “suitable” or fitting to their standards. Look at how our parents and ummas is destroying the youth! :’( I know for a fact that iman is not enough to protect us from sin … but it seems like it’s the only options and weapon these youth have got against temptations these days … Allah al mosta’aan/المستعان (Allah is the one we seek help from). Sorry i got all worked up about this topic :hiding:




Actually, I am very conscious of this problem and I have faced it before xD. The only girl I ever showed interest towards and asked her about marriage, she informed me that she is not considering marriage for herself at this age … AKA I got rejected. My female family relative also had that mentality and caring about her career and what not. But later on when she actually did start working, she realized that its not really a nice thing to chase after your living compared to having a husband to do it for you (cause males are usually the expendable ones I guess :s). Regardless, I personally believe that this is a dangerous trend that has plagued our society (im not suggesting that women shouldn’t have the right to work or raise their academic status, but you will see why its dangerous soon). This mentality originally came from the third wave feminism who are not only trying to promote for equal rights but are also trying to advocate for women to become independent from men and abandon the family concept. This is all bred from that fact that in their countries women used to be oppressed. They weren’t allowed to voice their opinion with men, they weren’t allowed to work, vote, talk in churches and much more (this is nothing like our deen ofc). Problem is that they are not only trying to bring back the balance, they are actually trying to reverse it on men. Whats even worse is that this idea is starting to appeal to many of the young girls of our umma, and they don’t know how harmful this concept is

The nature of men and women are very different. For men, our natural desire is to be providers or guardians over our families and wives, while for women its usually to nurture and care for her family and husband. {{ Quran 2:187 }} [ … They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them … ] So when the woman comes and become as good as men at providing for their families, the man will naturally feel emasculated as he is unable to provide something special for his family. That is why men usually find it undesirable to marry women with high status. (just like women don’t like to marry men with low status)

So in the end, when the woman raises her social, financial and everything status, she will still be looking for the guy that provides even more than what she already has. And when that is more than what the average male has, how many men left do you think will have the status she is looking for? And vise versa for men. Reducing the circle of possible potential spouses is one of the things that is making it more difficult to marry. Hence why this trend or way of thinking is a very dangerous one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tcghxvhS4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hbgBbIoUzc
Again, I want to stress on that fact the there is nothing wrong with a woman being successful, but if she plans on becoming independent then she should consider keeping her standards and expectations of men the same and not to raise them as she raises her status. A perfect example of this is Khadija (RA) the wife of the prophet (PBUH) where she was a business woman and agreed to marry the Prophet who barely had anything to show for at that time.




YES! Yes sister that would be much better! XD




With all respect brother, your way of thinking is the very outcome of the problems im trying to fight against. I know exactly what your talking about! I have seen how these modern countries strip men from everything they can show care for and trying to make it 100% female dominant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXQf2f2Yxo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFpYj0E-yb4

But you cannot roll over and abandon the concept in general as this may turn you into a herbivore feminine man just like the ones in japan. Nor can u become a neomasculine/mgtow man who are is completely self-centered and have zero respect for women. Try to bare patience with these problems and fight it for your future generation. Even if you fail, at least you would say that you’ve tried. I mean .. think about it, what a stale boring life you would live without someone to share your happy moments with? your sad ones, successful ones, hardships, times of illness, all these and you would still choose to be alone? if you think you are strong enough to lead such a life then by all means go for it. I personally started to think about marriage when i was going through rough times and wanted someone to be there for me someone other than my male friends or family members ... someone that could be much closer than that. ... But keep making someone want something for too long, it will only remind them of the bad times they needed/wanted it most but didnt get it and all the pain that came at that time, then they start hating it even if they get it. im very close to this stage unfortunately.

I need to clarify things that we men do that destroy us:

A) Respect all women.
---Wrong!--- Why do all women deserve respect? No one deserves respect. Respect is earned and not giving immediately. In your sentence you are saying just because she is female she deserves respect. Just because she is female she deserve to have her door open for her. Just because she is female she deserve to have someone stop the car on the road and help her fix her car when it is broken down. Just because she is female and pregnant she deserve someone to stand up and give her a seat.

I say no, no, no, no to all of that. As women have shown how strong and capable they are and no doubt they are capable and strong and even in many cases stronger than men, they don't deserve respect immediately just because they are female. They don't deserve to have the door open for them. They don't deserve to have someone help fix her car (if she have not prepared herself in case a car is down that is her fault not yours). If she is pregnant and is able to use the public transportation she stands up with the rest of the men and women who are forced to stand up in bosses and if it means her pregnant stomach hit people around her that is her issue not yours. Your aware that pregnant women go to the gym, play sports run and do physical activity. In fact it is best for her to stand up and do physical labor like the rest of us when she is pregnant it helps produce strong offspring, don't you think?

B) Men who feel they are bored or have stagnant life thinking marriage will fix that and help remove any loneliness and feel important
---Wrong!--- You are aware what other problems you are facing now will not somehow magically fix itself after marriage. All your habits and issues and problems you have faced in your life alone will follow you in marriage but it would only magnify 100x time and add other problems you didn't have before marriage and in addition have to deal with HER problems as well and drama. If you love drama, if you think drama is what gives you that spark in life, then go for it. By the way don't think you will be moving away from her mother and father when you are married, you are marrying the family and so many men mistake the idea that ones they are married they own their wife. No you don't. I told my mom if I was going to get married I will take the daughter and put her aside. I am not interested in what she does at all, I am not interested in her habits or hobbies or her character or anything she is just a picture an illusion that men keep falling into. I am interested in her mother. If I am marrying any woman I am marrying her mother with a new body of the mother. 98% of the time the daughter is the duplicate of the mother from dress, attitude, character and how she deals with men in her lives. If the mother is matriarch, the daughter is always a matriarch. If the father have so little input in the house and raising the children, YOU WILL have little input in the house and raising the children. If the mother is evil in character, the DAUGHTER is evil in character. Not always but majority of the time the daughter is clone of the mother.

You think by you marrying you will have this sunshine ramboo sky with flying unicorn and you get it all wrong.

To clarify about Japanese men. You have misconception that the Japanese men are feminine you are wrong. Japanese men could not have being more masculine and they are terrifyingly scary, strong and masculine and they can kick you butt in ways you will only find them in action movies. They don't want to be patriarch anymore because patriarch in Japan means you are a mule while the women live a happy life a man is forced to work to death and not get even a thanks or benefit of being a working mule. So many Japanese men find women to be a hassle, a burden too much work, too much issues they prefer living a single life where they enjoy shopping, looking good, relaxing, living with their parents over age 30 and more where they are serviced, have food done for them, have a clean house and not deal with responsibilities. So many Japanese women are becoming aggressive, warrior, seeking careers and climbing up the ladder and they are content living alone and happy and not really interested in men. I don't see anything wrong with men not being a working mule, an ungrateful job that we have proven can be replaced by governments and other services so why should a man worry like before. Women have also shown they can go out there and be strong, well educated, get high end degree and make more money than men. I see no reason why should a man should burden himself with marriage as there are no more pressure for that and there shouldn't be a pressure for that. If you cannot find fulfillment alone and be happy alone even if it means not getting married for the rest of your life then you have bigger problems than that and marriage will not solve it, it will only add more issues and burdens than you can handle. In the end you will get divorced and then deal with divorce stress, such as alimony, she filing false allegation at you of rape or domestic violence and if you have children you will lose all custody of those children and you will be 8th class citizen when it comes to your right as a parent. SHE WILL use the children as weapon and turn them against you even in the most subtle way possible so no traces can reach her and you will be forced to pay child support for until the child reaches age 25 last I checked. I could be wrong in that one. My advice not to run and rush into marriage and solve your issues before then. You feel you have bored life go to therapy and talk out all your issues, if you have issues living alone fix those issues and pretend that one day women will go to the government and demand forced gender separation and a time will come where there is a wall that separate men and women...pretend it is like that. What will you do if that happen? Go flailing your arm in the arm and shrieking like a freak and kill yourself and kill other men around you or smack your head on the wall or weep like a little girl? You need to be able to live alone and be strong alone and not need one. Put all your trust on Allah (Subhanu Wa talaa) and need him only. THAT'S where you strength comes from, you get that and you will live truly a happy life.

By the way, if you think nowadays your wife will be your backbone through thick and thin you are in deep illusion that need to wake up to reality. Remember, anytime you rely on your wife she will put it in the basket of favors that she will be using it against you. You have trouble only go to Allah (Subhaanu Wa talaa) not to your wife. You have closed chest, read Qura'an and do supplication. Do Dua. Get closer to Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) only Allah listen to you, not humans. Only Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) will protect you and help you in your issues and not humans, not even your children. Women and children want from you and expect you to protect them and take care of them, they will resent it if you expect something from them. If you are getting married thinking she will take care of you and protect you then you get a rude awakening and another reason not to seek marriage until you understand what your expectations are and everything is cleared out to you.

[cinnamonrolls1]

I need to clarify things that we men do that destroy us:

A) Respect all women.
---Wrong!--- Why do all women deserve respect? No one deserves respect. Respect is earned and not giving immediately. In your sentence you are saying just because she is female she deserves respect. Just because she is female she deserve to have her door open for her. Just because she is female she deserve to have someone stop the car on the road and help her fix her car when it is broken down. Just because she is female and pregnant she deserve someone to stand up and give her a seat.

I say no, no, no, no to all of that. As women have shown how strong and capable they are and no doubt they are capable and strong and even in many cases stronger than men, they don't deserve respect immediately just because they are female. They don't deserve to have the door open for them. They don't deserve to have someone help fix her car (if she have not prepared herself in case a car is down that is her fault not yours). If she is pregnant and is able to use the public transportation she stands up with the rest of the men and women who are forced to stand up in bosses and if it means her pregnant stomach hit people around her that is her issue not yours. Your aware that pregnant women go to the gym, play sports run and do physical activity. In fact it is best for her to stand up and do physical labor like the rest of us when she is pregnant it helps produce strong offspring, don't you think?

B) Men who feel they are bored or have stagnant life thinking marriage will fix that and help remove any loneliness and feel important
---Wrong!--- You are aware what other problems you are facing now will not somehow magically fix itself after marriage. All your habits and issues and problems you have faced in your life alone will follow you in marriage but it would only magnify 100x time and add other problems you didn't have before marriage and in addition have to deal with HER problems as well and drama. If you love drama, if you think drama is what gives you that spark in life, then go for it. By the way don't think you will be moving away from her mother and father when you are married, you are marrying the family and so many men mistake the idea that ones they are married they own their wife. No you don't. I told my mom if I was going to get married I will take the daughter and put her aside. I am not interested in what she does at all, I am not interested in her habits or hobbies or her character or anything she is just a picture an illusion that men keep falling into. I am interested in her mother. If I am marrying any woman I am marrying her mother with a new body of the mother. 98% of the time the daughter is the duplicate of the mother from dress, attitude, character and how she deals with men in her lives. If the mother is matriarch, the daughter is always a matriarch. If the father have so little input in the house and raising the children, YOU WILL have little input in the house and raising the children. If the mother is evil in character, the DAUGHTER is evil in character. Not always but majority of the time the daughter is clone of the mother.

You think by you marrying you will have this sunshine ramboo sky with flying unicorn and you get it all wrong.

To clarify about Japanese men. You have misconception that the Japanese men are feminine you are wrong. Japanese men could not have being more masculine and they are terrifyingly scary, strong and masculine and they can kick you butt in ways you will only find them in action movies. They don't want to be patriarch anymore because patriarch in Japan means you are a mule while the women live a happy life a man is forced to work to death and not get even a thanks or benefit of being a working mule. So many Japanese men find women to be a hassle, a burden too much work, too much issues they prefer living a single life where they enjoy shopping, looking good, relaxing, living with their parents over age 30 and more where they are serviced, have food done for them, have a clean house and not deal with responsibilities. So many Japanese women are becoming aggressive, warrior, seeking careers and climbing up the ladder and they are content living alone and happy and not really interested in men. I don't see anything wrong with men not being a working mule, an ungrateful job that we have proven can be replaced by governments and other services so why should a man worry like before. Women have also shown they can go out there and be strong, well educated, get high end degree and make more money than men. I see no reason why should a man should burden himself with marriage as there are no more pressure for that and there shouldn't be a pressure for that. If you cannot find fulfillment alone and be happy alone even if it means not getting married for the rest of your life then you have bigger problems than that and marriage will not solve it, it will only add more issues and burdens than you can handle. In the end you will get divorced and then deal with divorce stress, such as alimony, she filing false allegation at you of rape or domestic violence and if you have children you will lose all custody of those children and you will be 8th class citizen when it comes to your right as a parent. SHE WILL use the children as weapon and turn them against you even in the most subtle way possible so no traces can reach her and you will be forced to pay child support for until the child reaches age 25 last I checked. I could be wrong in that one. My advice not to run and rush into marriage and solve your issues before then. You feel you have bored life go to therapy and talk out all your issues, if you have issues living alone fix those issues and pretend that one day women will go to the government and demand forced gender separation and a time will come where there is a wall that separate men and women...pretend it is like that. What will you do if that happen? Go flailing your arm in the arm and shrieking like a freak and kill yourself and kill other men around you or smack your head on the wall or weep like a little girl? You need to be able to live alone and be strong alone and not need one. Put all your trust on Allah (Subhanu Wa talaa) and need him only. THAT'S where you strength comes from, you get that and you will live truly a happy life.

By the way, if you think nowadays your wife will be your backbone through thick and thin you are in deep illusion that need to wake up to reality. Remember, anytime you rely on your wife she will put it in the basket of favors that she will be using it against you. You have trouble only go to Allah (Subhaanu Wa talaa) not to your wife. You have closed chest, read Qura'an and do supplication. Do Dua. Get closer to Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) only Allah listen to you, not humans. Only Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) will protect you and help you in your issues and not humans, not even your children. Women and children want from you and expect you to protect them and take care of them, they will resent it if you expect something from them. If you are getting married thinking she will take care of you and protect you then you get a rude awakening and another reason not to seek marriage until you understand what your expectations are and everything is cleared out to you.

Im sorry but what is the point of this? If you think all women are dupes of their mum( which is very wrong btw) then don't get married. Don't come and sit here ranting about women because clearly some of the guys in this thread actually want to get married.

[new2010]

That's a bit extreme what you said at the end, that he would think that way. I personally don't see anything wrong with it if it's done in a respectful way and I don't think there's anything against it as long as no fitnah is involved as outlined in the link I sent. You can make du'a but you still have to put the effort in making contact/proposing whether through yourself or through someone else like your mother, sister, etc.

Assalamualaikum,

sorry for bringing up this thread again. However, I have a question regarding this sister at my workplace.

I just don't get enough courage to look at her, because it's not allowed for us to look at other gender. Lately we crossed our ways at work but I immediately lowered my gaze. So the issue is, I even don't know whether she is interested our not. When you would look or say salamalaikum, you would get some impression out of the reaction. But this is not possible. I am just to shy to look.

Even I don't know nothing about her. Even I don't know how she exactly looks. But for some a reason, I have a feeling. Even I lower my gaze, it gets stronger. That's the problem, I don't know NOTHING, just a stranger to whom I never spoke before. Maybe my feeling is wrong.

I mean let's say I find out her wali's number, he will think I am insane, I guess. Stranger calls stranger, to ask for hand of daughter. Of course I wouldn't propose marriage to her before I spoke to her in front of mahram, but this is so strange, it feels so uncommon, because I am not experienced in such things. I just fear the consequences of my behavior.

What when I get rejected? People and she will think I am an idiot. I know, I shouldn't care about other people as long as I don't make Allah angry, but I'm still human.

Opinons are welcomed.

[*charisma*]

Walaikum Asalaam,

So the issue is, I even don't know whether she is interested our not. When you would look or say salamalaikum, you would get some impression out of the reaction. But this is not possible. I am just to shy to look.

This is not true. Her reaction would not indicate any interest in you, even if it is a positive one. You really will not be able to tell nor should you assume anything.

I mean let's say I find out her wali's number, he will think I am insane, I guess. Stranger calls stranger, to ask for hand of daughter. Of course I wouldn't propose marriage to her before I spoke to her in front of mahram, but this is so strange, it feels so uncommon, because I am not experienced in such things. I just fear the consequences of my behavior.

WHy would her father think you're insane?? How else do people get married there? If anything, a man who is able to do that on his own receives a lot of respect because it's not an easy thing to do but it's a very honorable thing to do. Most men can't even do it that way.

I don't know what your culture is like, but you can have your father call her father, or your mother call her mother. It would even be better if there was a mutual person who knew your family and her family. The rest will happen on its own. Don't care too much about what anyone thinks. Honestly, no one really criticizes as you think they do. Marriage is a part of life. No one is experienced in it and it's always awkward. :D It's just a chance you have to take. Just because a girl rejects you doesn't mean anything about what she thinks of you. I've rejected many proposals and I never thought anything negatively about them, and most girls are like that as well. You can also always pray istikhara. But stop beating yourself about these little things. You gotta get over it and just try! :)

[new2010]

Walaikum Asalaam,



This is not true. Her reaction would not indicate any interest in you, even if it is a positive one. You really will not be able to tell nor should you assume anything.

Ok, you're right with that.

WHy would her father think you're insane?? How else do people get married there? If anything, a man who is able to do that on his own receives a lot of respect because it's not an easy thing to do but it's a very honorable thing to do. Most men can't even do it that way.

I don't know what your culture is like, but you can have your father call her father, or your mother call her mother. It would even be better if there was a mutual person who knew your family and her family. The rest will happen on its own. Don't care too much about what anyone thinks. Honestly, no one really criticizes as you think they do. Marriage is a part of life. No one is experienced in it and it's always awkward. :D It's just a chance you have to take. Just because a girl rejects you doesn't mean anything about what she thinks of you. I've rejected many proposals and I never thought anything negatively about them, and most girls are like that as well. You can also always pray istikhara. But stop beating yourself about these little things. You gotta get over it and just try! :)

I think most people get married by they get introduced to someone. There is no one I know knows her family, as I told, she is just a sister at my workplace to whom I never talked to or saw before.

We've a lot of brothers at work, may be I can ask whether they have an idea, how to get in touch with her. May be another sister at work can approach her and find out if she is married or is interested in getting married. I think that can work out. We've sisters at work that could be figuratively speaking my mother and I know even their son. Do you think it would be inappropriate to ask her whether she can find out anything about her?

I think I will just try, more than a "no" I can not receive. People commit zina and have no shame in telling that, I try to do something with barakah and build a family inshaAllah.

btw: Just being interested in her doesn't mean anything, I mean I don't know anything about her. So when I know her a little better and I think she is not the right person, I could still say no. But I think I fear this part most, rejecting people is harder than being rejected I guess.

barakAllahu feek

wasalama

[*charisma*]

We've a lot of brothers at work, may be I can ask whether they have an idea, how to get in touch with her. May be another sister at work can approach her and find out if she is married or is interested in getting married. I think that can work out. We've sisters at work that could be figuratively speaking my mother and I know even their son. Do you think it would be inappropriate to ask her whether she can find out anything about her?

You could do that. You could also ask the son to ask his mom for you which would probably be better. I don't think it's inappropriate. It would be your best chance to know more about the girl without having to talk to her directly or put yourself in an awkward situation.

btw: Just being interested in her doesn't mean anything, I mean I don't know anything about her. So when I know her a little better and I think she is not the right person, I could still say no. But I think I fear this part most, rejecting people is harder than being rejected I guess.

Think of it this way, if she rejects you, at least you will now know that it wasn't meant to be and you can move on to try and find someone else. It will also be a learning experience for you. Not everyone we are interested in is destined for us. Always better to get rejected in the very beginning before anything is established, and you should never take it personally. I've rejected many proposals and more than often it had nothing to do with the guy himself. You can still be a great person, handsome, intelligent, etc. and still get rejected simply because it was just not meant to be and nothing to do with who you are as a person. You'd feel worse if she accepted you due to pressure and not because she was really interested in you, so embrace the truth and consider it as such rather than a rejection.

[new2010]

You could do that. You could also ask the son to ask his mom for you which would probably be better. I don't think it's inappropriate. It would be your best chance to know more about the girl without having to talk to her directly or put yourself in an awkward situation.

Unfortunately, I don't see this brother anymore and have no opportunity to contact him. Otherwise, of course that would be the way I would go.

Please speak some dua for me. Allah is all hearing.

[*charisma*]

Unfortunately, I don't see this brother anymore and have no opportunity to contact him. Otherwise, of course that would be the way I would go.

Please speak some dua for me. Allah is all hearing.

Inshallah bro, may allah ease your affairs and grant you a wonderful wife ameen.

[BurningHeart]

This is a poor OP post.

It is not the fault of the Ulama here at all. So not a wise decision to blame the ulama for our own short-comings.

I do need to ask how often have you personally met the ulama and interacted with them? When I say that, it means to meet face to face and sitting down having a meal at times.

Because through my own life, I have been around with Ulama that even compromised of graduate of Al Azhar (old schooler) and literally his friday sermons deal with contemporary issues. They have certainly made my life a lot easier even though I am not married at this level.

The true fault is on the hands of the people that follow the society's norm and cultures. I know in and out of the society, when I say that I personally have been seen and came across the cases of dark side (not some but many). Often those who went down the wrong road end up blaming others, a point comes they even blame Allah rabul 'izza (ilyazbullah min zalik) some even hate themselves and end up committing suicide. Yes i know these cases as well.

We live in a tough world now, where sins are easy. We have night-clubs in our own hands which is the smart-phones. When we can not even protect our own hearts from ill thoughts, then please do not expect some scholar to come over and insulate your heart from the poison that it hoards.

Yes it is difficult to obtain from sins, but it is NOT impossible. There are people who I know live in high end societies where sins are easy to be get into, but they are well disconnected from the society's norm.

The people of cave, who are mentioned in Surah Kahf, were not some poor class people. But they belonged to well respected families, but the norms of the society pushed them to leave and take refuge in a cave. I did not find anywhere in tafseer where these people of cave blamed the scholars for making life difficult. The state was such that if someone did not go by the society's norm (to be brief it was similar but bit worse than nowadays) they would treat the person badly.

Isn't this the state nowadays?
What is funny, when someone tells you the restrict use-age of mobile phones. We, ourselves, say 'How can we? its a necessity.' - Then end up using the wrong way, and then blame someone else for the reason of sin.

When a Scholar advices you to block images on the internet by having image blocker, we say 'How can we? its a necessity.'
When a Scholar even advices you to quit the job which we also know can end us up in sins, we say 'How can we? its a necessity.'
...etc etc

I guess we do need to blame our own nafs, maybe it will knock something in our heads. When we point a finger, there are three fingers pointing back.
Maybe if that Scholar which is being blamed here on this thread is the Nafs, then I re-tract my post and agree with you.

We really do need to man up and accept the responsibilities. There is not a need to feel ashamed if we need to go against the today's norm such as leaving out technology or materialistic equipments.

p.s I have also seen scholars who do not bother what others are up-to, because they know then they advice in modern terms we brush them aside. Its more of disrespecting them.

[ChosenTCO]

This is a poor OP post.

It is not the fault of the Ulama here at all. So not a wise decision to blame the ulama for our own short-comings.

I do need to ask how often have you personally met the ulama and interacted with them? When I say that, it means to meet face to face and sitting down having a meal at times.

Because through my own life, I have been around with Ulama that even compromised of graduate of Al Azhar (old schooler) and literally his friday sermons deal with contemporary issues. They have certainly made my life a lot easier even though I am not married at this level.

The true fault is on the hands of the people that follow the society's norm and cultures. I know in and out of the society, when I say that I personally have been seen and came across the cases of dark side (not some but many). Often those who went down the wrong road end up blaming others, a point comes they even blame Allah rabul 'izza (ilyazbullah min zalik) some even hate themselves and end up committing suicide. Yes i know these cases as well.

We live in a tough world now, where sins are easy. We have night-clubs in our own hands which is the smart-phones. When we can not even protect our own hearts from ill thoughts, then please do not expect some scholar to come over and insulate your heart from the poison that it hoards.

Yes it is difficult to obtain from sins, but it is NOT impossible. There are people who I know live in high end societies where sins are easy to be get into, but they are well disconnected from the society's norm.

The people of cave, who are mentioned in Surah Kahf, were not some poor class people. But they belonged to well respected families, but the norms of the society pushed them to leave and take refuge in a cave. I did not find anywhere in tafseer where these people of cave blamed the scholars for making life difficult. The state was such that if someone did not go by the society's norm (to be brief it was similar but bit worse than nowadays) they would treat the person badly.

Isn't this the state nowadays?
What is funny, when someone tells you the restrict use-age of mobile phones. We, ourselves, say 'How can we? its a necessity.' - Then end up using the wrong way, and then blame someone else for the reason of sin.

When a Scholar advices you to block images on the internet by having image blocker, we say 'How can we? its a necessity.'
When a Scholar even advices you to quit the job which we also know can end us up in sins, we say 'How can we? its a necessity.'
...etc etc

I guess we do need to blame our own nafs, maybe it will knock something in our heads. When we point a finger, there are three fingers pointing back.
Maybe if that Scholar which is being blamed here on this thread is the Nafs, then I re-tract my post and agree with you.

We really do need to man up and accept the responsibilities. There is not a need to feel ashamed if we need to go against the today's norm such as leaving out technology or materialistic equipments.

p.s I have also seen scholars who do not bother what others are up-to, because they know then they advice in modern terms we brush them aside. Its more of disrespecting them.

Let me start off by saying i could be very well wrong here, but unless you show me where im mistake in my analogy, i will most likely not change my opinion about what i have said.

Firstly, you said its our own short-comings, not the ulama. Lets apply this to reality (specifically the example about marriage and revolving around the norms of arab muslim culture).

• Initially, a boy or girl grows up not learning anything about sexuality or sexual relations from a trusted source untill they hit puberty. By then, these teens have no prior tarbiya that properly addresses this topic an no discipline about it. They receive very little information about what and how they are suppose to handle those feelings just as they are transitioning into the rebelliousness phase. Then they do actually rebel against what they have been told thinking its not a big deal due to the shallow amount of info they got about it and eventually fall into sin. Boom! they automatically become blame worthy when the recipe in of itself obviously invites disaster. How is that a fair judgement?
• And the ones that dont fall into sin. They are told that marriage is the only halal way to have a female partner or friend. But at the same time, they cant get it because it requires you to be able to support a family and be financially stable. So we look into that and we find that all the world including the arab and muslim regions have adopted the west's style of working and getting a job. First you have to get a high-school degree then college then masters ... We try to look into that and we find that to achieve all this will take at least 25 years to accomplish. Not only that, but the institutions where such titles are obtained are all filled with free mixing situations and what not. And in the end, the teen is still blamed for falling into sin when he is put into a situation which virtually make it impossible for him not to. Again, how is this a fair judgement? I know that some of you will say " well they should have done such and such to speed up the process and what not" but id ask ... Were do you expect these young kids who are full of energy to have the patients and mentality to think like that? We cant even trust them with their own lives, let alone expect them to have the mindset to think 10 or 20 years ahead?

People consistently think that just by putting image blockers or such and such will help them not fall into sin. I personally believe that all these things are useless. Because the foundation of why these actions need to stop (in the hearts of many) are lost in the first place, and in other cases people are far too engulfed into these sinful action that its too hard for them to get out even after they gain the proper foundations that would otherwise help them not fall into sin. We think that just by providing little things like that, it would resolve everything when half of the other stuff is 1000 times worse and more effective. [for example: You imply that phones are one of the major gateways to fitna. I agree with you, but you also imply that we should not have them but people justify having them claiming its out of necessity. I hate to say it but they are right in that it is a necessity. You are the one who is belittling its importance. Major leaders of the arab world have allowed many of the system of the west to seep through into out culture such as the current educational and job systems yet they expect us not to use any of the nessesities that would require us to engage in these systems that grants us a living.] What im trying to say is ... Why expect us "the people" to not fall into sin when the leaders themselves allow western systems which promote the tools almost like the gates of sin into their lands? Why do we people get blamed for using it when its the only method to earn a living? Why do people get blamed for the failures of the leaders who do not provide a halal means to earn a living? ... And you know whats the funny part? i dont even blame the leaders cause their case is similar to most people. They get their knowledge from those who have it ... our scholars, who dont pass their knowledge in a correct way that wouldnt allow their knowledge to be misinterpreted. Nor do they focus on provide the masses with an effective and more halal alternative. Instead, they allow the muslim world to incorporate systems of the west that promotes things which also opens up the gates to sin, yet command us not to fall into these sins when its one button away from us while the halal is $10000 worth of mahr + walima + new apartment away ...

You said there is no need to feel ashamed to turn our backs on the nerms of today, but id ask you this. Do you really think its about shame?
Because i personally believe its much more than that. Its about how effective these norms are compared to the impractical requests of these scholar. At least when they pass a prohibition ruling on something, they should at lease suggest a halal alternative that is as practical as the one which has been prohibited. But no, we just like to make things 100 times more difficult for people then claim its their fault for not following the scholars. It just doesnt work like that.

I just want to note that im not referring to those 500+ year old scholars like Imam Shafi or Imam Malik (RA). Im simply referring to the modern scholars who we barely hear anything about let alone know about their alternatives to the things they deem haram and forbid (that is if they came up with such alternatives in the first place). but im willing to wager that they haven't because if they have come up with something that is very effective and halal at the same time you would have seen it catch on where most of the muslim people would use it. Similar to anything that is effective and easy to use, just like portable communication devices, the internet, cars, school systems and much more. Im not saying these things are perfect cause they arent. But at least they solve major problems that would otherwise hinder our development as a nation.

All in all, i think that its wrong to blame the entire umma for something that is completely out of their hand. They are brought into a world were the haram is almost a necessity to do, else they would fall and crumble to the point where they would become homeless or even worse, completely give up on their faith from all the hardship it causes them ... half of which arent even real ruling in islam but bad scholars would prohibit things just to avoid saying i dont know and not to fall into sin of permitting something that may be doubtful.

Of course not all scholars are like that, nor are all modern scholars. And it would be wrong of me to claim that if i did (i hope that i didnt). Its just that, in my mind, the umma today is a perfect reflection of what the leaders and scholars produced, and what our ancestors have left behind. So again, no i do not believe it is the sole responsibility of the umma ... We shouldnt be afraid to question and look into the mistakes of our respected elders and improve over their achievements or rather, lack of, in this case. We need to change the path that we are being led through because its doesnt seem like it has any light in the end. And we aint gonna change if all the scholars and leaders do is blame us for trying to earn a living without providing a practical and halal alternative means for us.

[BurningHeart]

@ChosenTCO

Your echo of concern is worth a praise here.

There are few things that need to be clarified tho, firstly isn't the first madrassa or house of tarbiya of a child is home? in other words their parents? The question is, do we blame the scholars in this regard for parents not sending their children for short time to learn about ethics, manners, deen and so forth? A scholar really can not force a parent to send their child their way or forcefully change the way of the parents who do not concern about deen. But they can inform as their job, and I guess they have been doing this for ages.

Regarding the leadership and scholarship, it has remained a history until now that they both have conflicted at times but not always. Where at times of leaders have employed so called wrongful scholars to justify their actions while the true scholars have remained a minority and less voiced. Some examples are like of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (rah), Imam Malik (rah), Imam Sufyan Thawree (rah) and so forth.

I can understand your point on how Arab have gone off to do something similar, true scholars have continued to remained persecuted when they challenged the leaders of the time. Prime example would be of Egypt and Al Azhar coming under the government rule. While in the Central Asian region, after the downfall of Ottoman Khilafa, countries like Uzbekistan faced a backlash where true Scholars were persecuted and wrong ones came down to major posts. In the sub continent region, we can take the example of students of Shah Wali ullah Muhadith Dehlawi (rah) and the times of resistance of Scholars with the British rule. Similarly after Ottoman Khilafa went down, and Mustafa Kamal Ataturk came it was not long that he forcefully changed the mode of Adhan. Can not forget Omar Mukhtar (rah) and the Libyan resistance.

But then, if we do look critically in this aspect. Who trusted these leaders while these true scholars were being persecuted? It was us people who did. And now we can understand why there is a sense of regret within us for having done this, it is the consequences we are facing for turning our face away from true scholars.

I, personally, have grown up in Arab country with Arab friends around my life. Having seen through these things, there is a need to accept that the next Arab generation are careless about Islamic scholarship. Literally it is out of their head to even think if someone would want to learn the traditional islamic sciences (but not all). Usually the Arab mothers (of our previous generation and are alive) are religious, but they some are not doing their part in informing their children and doing the tarbiya. Last ramadan I spent in with my Arab friend, I was shocked that he informed me that many of those I knew were close to me in my school days are turning towards atheism. I did try personally to begin a halaqa to get the importance of deen going with friends, it was going well but it stopped, maybe when I will be spending the next ramadan I may insha-Allah try again.

Certainly these technology advancements are important for the nation to grow. But that has to be used when it is time, and when it is not the time then we have to keep it away. When I speak of technology, I usually target things that are connected to Internet such as smart phones and laptops. I am not saying it is haraam to use them but they are strong tools to put the nafs into the wrong place.

When we are using them wrongly, even if Scholars today inform it is haraam to watch wrong things and so forth. The scholar has done his part of informing, the next part is our job to stick away from it. I understand the situation is tough that we feel compelled to get into it, but that shows our own weakness towards the nafs and our lack of intelligence to act smartly to understand where one can manage to be save in managing to fall down the trap.

Lets take an example, a scholar advised that whenever you are using your laptop or desktop then do it infront of everyone. And bi iznillah I am doing this, and things are on the safe end al hamdulillah. The question is, people just do not want to fight their nafs in acting upon these advice, it seems tough to do and why is that? because it hurts the nafs. Even I was advised to keep my mobile phones open, and to be used by anyone. And frankly speaking I have leave my mobile right in the hands of my mother if I am home so that can she look it up whenever she wants and see what is the history on there to keep a track.

Initially it is tough, hurts the nafs but you got to put the willpower to get the grasp of it. People can put their sweat and blood to fulfil their wrong desires, why can we not at least put some sweat or at least the struggle to push ourselves to finding means to be on the safe side?

Sorry I will stop here do not want to go really long. Not my last post, but I will try to just make this my last discussion on this forum.

Just few questions if yo do not mind.

Are you implying scholars advocate the idea of earning before marriage? I believe the scholars have already long said marriage is easy, but it is made hard by us people by including things that are not even necessary aren't they?

can you give me an example where Scholars do not allow certain things but do not provide an halal alternative?

[MazharShafiq]

لِقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى: {فَانْكِحُوا مَا طَابَ لَكُمْ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ}.
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

A group of three men came to the houses of the wives of the Prophet (ﷺ) asking how the Prophet (ﷺ) worshipped (Allah), and when they were informed about that, they considered their worship insufficient and said, "Where are we from the Prophet (ﷺ) as his past and future sins have been forgiven." Then one of them said, "I will offer the prayer throughout the night forever." The other said, "I will fast throughout the year and will not break my fast." The third said, "I will keep away from the women and will not marry forever." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came to them and said, "Are you the same people who said so-and-so? By Allah, I am more submissive to Allah and more afraid of Him than you; yet I fast and break my fast, I do sleep and I also marry women. So he who does not follow my tradition in religion, is not from me (not one of my followers).

حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا حُمَيْدُ بْنُ أَبِي حُمَيْدٍ الطَّوِيلُ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ أَنَسَ بْنَ مَالِكٍ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ يَقُولُ جَاءَ ثَلاَثَةُ رَهْطٍ إِلَى بُيُوتِ أَزْوَاجِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَسْأَلُونَ عَنْ عِبَادَةِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَلَمَّا أُخْبِرُوا كَأَنَّهُمْ تَقَالُّوهَا فَقَالُوا وَأَيْنَ نَحْنُ مِنَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَدْ غُفِرَ لَهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِنْ ذَنْبِهِ وَمَا تَأَخَّرَ‏.‏ قَالَ أَحَدُهُمْ أَمَّا أَنَا فَإِنِّي أُصَلِّي اللَّيْلَ أَبَدًا‏.‏ وَقَالَ آخَرُ أَنَا أَصُومُ الدَّهْرَ وَلاَ أُفْطِرُ‏.‏ وَقَالَ آخَرُ أَنَا أَعْتَزِلُ النِّسَاءَ فَلاَ أَتَزَوَّجُ أَبَدًا‏.‏ فَجَاءَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ أَنْتُمُ الَّذِينَ قُلْتُمْ كَذَا وَكَذَا أَمَا وَاللَّهِ إِنِّي لأَخْشَاكُمْ لِلَّهِ وَأَتْقَاكُمْ لَهُ، لَكِنِّي أَصُومُ وَأُفْطِرُ، وَأُصَلِّي وَأَرْقُدُ وَأَتَزَوَّجُ النِّسَاءَ، فَمَنْ رَغِبَ عَنْ سُنَّتِي فَلَيْسَ مِنِّي ‏"‏‏.‏
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 5063
In-book reference : : Vol. 7, Book 62, Hadith 1