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lost_one
03-05-2018, 05:43 PM
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad
Reply

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ahmed.younes
03-05-2018, 06:00 PM
We do not know who Allah will send to heaven or hell unless the prophet pbuh told us, and not all people who say the Kalimah will go to heaven. Brother, aslong as you understand god is the truth and mohammed pbuh is his messenger, then stop worrying yourself with these questions. It is a trick of shaytan to make you doubt yourself and the religion. Allah said in Quran that he is just, and he will never do anything wrong to anyone so focus working on strengthening your faith by learning the religion from reliable sources, and avoiding places, which are non-islamic. We have all gone through the same struggles as you have gone through in one way or another brother, so just keep trying to get closer to Allah swt, and make sincere dua him everyday. Also, you must becareful on who you watch online, because many of them will send you astray, especially some among the western scholars.

Here is a video about the correct aqeedah (creed), which is the foundation of the religion that allows you to learn the correct belief system according to the prophet pbuh. it is essential to being by learning the aqeedah, because it is core belief of the religion. Learn this, and it will strengthen your faith, your belief in the oneness of Allah swt, and your overall confidence inshallah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8FupZpep2Q
Reply

azc
03-05-2018, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad
No good deed go waste. They are rewarded in this worldly life for their good deeds in form of wealth, fame or popularity etc.

So you are protesting to leave Islam in defence of their stubbornness for rejecting the truth.
Reply

lost_one
03-05-2018, 06:13 PM
Thank you so much for your answer. I'm not protesting, I long for my faith and it seems as though I'll never get it back. I used to be a very very pious person but slowly lost it. I feel lost and alone.
And hence I'm here
But think of this. Look at what media has portray ed Islam as. Look at what Isis has done. How will anyone believe Islam is the light now? And its not their fault. And I can't believe they'll go to hell. In the Qur'an it clearly states no kalima means hellfire. Right?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by ahmed.younes
We do not know who Allah will send to heaven or hell unless the prophet pbuh told us, and not all people who say the Kalimah will go to heaven. Brother, aslong as you understand god is the truth and mohammed pbuh is his messenger, then stop worrying yourself with these questions. It is a trick of shaytan to make you doubt yourself and the religion. Allah said in Quran that he is just, and he will never do anything wrong to anyone so focus working on strengthening your faith by learning the religion from reliable sources, and avoiding places, which are non-islamic. We have all gone through the same struggles as you have gone through in one way or another brother, so just keep trying to get closer to Allah swt, and make sincere dua him everyday. Also, you must becareful on who you watch online, because many of them will send you astray, especially some among the western scholars.

Here is a video about the correct aqeedah (creed), which is the foundation of the religion that allows you to learn the correct belief system according to the prophet pbuh. it is essential to being by learning the aqeedah, because it is core belief of the religion. Learn this, and it will strengthen your faith, your belief in the oneness of Allah swt, and your overall confidence inshallah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8FupZpep2Q
Thank you for your time. Doesn't it say in the Qur'an somewhere that if you died without reciting kalimah you'll go to hell no matter(not sure about the no matter part)
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azc
03-05-2018, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad
Media isn't Muslim friendly, so it's not reliable.

Who's behind IS.?, who is giving them weapons..?

IS or any group which kills innocent people (even they are non Muslims) doesn't represent Islam.
Reply

lost_one
03-05-2018, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Media isn't Muslim friendly, so it's not reliable.

Who's behind IS.?, who is giving them weapons..?

IS or any group which kills innocent people (even they are non Muslims) doesn't represent Islam.
Yes but millions of innocents don't know this. In today's life one can't be so concerned with religion that's they start researching it.
Is it only those stopped their life to pursue religion and I doing so found Islam got salvation but those who devoted to serving humanity didn't?
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-05-2018, 07:40 PM
We dont know whos going to heaven or hell. We dont. Its up to god to decide
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-05-2018, 10:16 PM
Allah determines who and who isn't going into Paradise. The Quran states who those are. What you should be focusing on is having the knowledge and righteous good deeds that Allah Azza wa Jal expects from you. And are you really going to lose iman and jeopardize your soul because people like Mother Teresa isn't making it into Paradise? If that is the case then here is a reminder you need to ponder over seriously:

"if any of you turns back from his religion and dies as an unbeliever, his deeds will become void in this life and in the hereafter. He will be the inmate of the hellfire, to live in there forever." [2.217]
Reply

azc
03-06-2018, 05:37 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Yes but millions of innocents don't know this. In today's life one can't be so concerned with religion that's they start researching it.
Is it only those stopped their life to pursue religion and I doing so found Islam got salvation but those who devoted to serving humanity didn't?
conspiracy against Islam isn't new. Propaganda against Islam, especially, in modern age, is rampant.

Those Muslims who have no deep knowledge and are unaware of this propaganda war and have no sterling faith are often misled by listening/watching/reading anti Islamic stuff.

Guidance is not our hands. It's the mercy of Allah swt who does he will guides and this is the fault and stupidity that someone who after guidance go astray
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Allah determines who and who isn't going into Paradise. The Quran states who those are. What you should be focusing on is having the knowledge and righteous good deeds that Allah Azza wa Jal expects from you. And are you really going to lose iman and jeopardize your soul because people like Mother Teresa isn't making it into Paradise? If that is the case then here is a reminder you need to ponder over seriously:

"if any of you turns back from his religion and dies as an unbeliever, his deeds will become void in this life and in the hereafter. He will be the inmate of the hellfire, to live in there forever." [2.217]
And that's exactly what's wrong. Doesn't anyone think that something is wrong with this? So many genuinely good people go to hell where as a Muslim who JUST HAPPENED to be born in a Muslim household goes to heaven?
You get to go to heaven since you're born in a Muslim family and not because you made the world a better place? And vice versa Others don't?
And it was God's decision to put you in a Muslim household. How is this fair?
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
And that's exactly what's wrong. Doesn't anyone think that something is wrong with this? So many genuinely good people go to hell where as a Muslim who JUST HAPPENED to be born in a Muslim household goes to heaven?
You get to go to heaven since you're born in a Muslim family and not because you made the world a better place? And vice versa Others don't?
And it was God's decision to put you in a Muslim household. How is this fair?
Thats not how it works. Everyone regardless of faith will be judged appropriately. Its talked about in the Quran, the Jews think they wont go to hell because theyre God's chosen people, that claim is refuted and it shows that faith wont save you then.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 06:49 AM
Also what we're doing now is dangerous- rationalising God's choices.
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 06:58 AM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Also what we're doing now is dangerous- rationalising God's choices.
Thank you for your time. Thanks to everyone for their effort.

Anyways so God decided to throw half the population to hell and we're not allowed to question it?
Please I implore everyone to think about this. Just like we are convinced of going to heaven so many Christians and Jews are too.

Most of us didn't chose our religion. We got it from parents, never questioned and that's the basis for entrance to paradise?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Everyone regardless of faith will be judged appropriately. Its talked about in the Quran.
Please tell me where? If its true its all I need.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 07:02 AM
Im gonna send a link to an article talking about this issue: http://partytilfajr.tumblr.com/post/...-going-to-hell
By a former imam who specialises in Sharia. He's got all the ayat cited etc

Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 07:04 AM
( also yes, that is his blog name, its a joke, he's actually taught me a lot)
Reply

azc
03-06-2018, 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
And that's exactly what's wrong. Doesn't anyone think that something is wrong with this? So many genuinely good people go to hell where as a Muslim who JUST HAPPENED to be born in a Muslim household goes to heaven?
You get to go to heaven since you're born in a Muslim family and not because you made the world a better place? And vice versa Others don't?
And it was God's decision to put you in a Muslim household. How is this fair?
Do you think that law abiding citizens and traitors of your country should be treated at par..?

Do you think when the court sentences life imprisonment against the perpetrator of heinous crime is injustice in case he was a good person in life..?
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by azc
Do you think that law abiding citizens and traitors of your country should be treated at par..?

Do you think when the court sentences life imprisonment against the perpetrator of heinous crime is injustice in case he was a good person in life..?
Not at all. Both law abiders and traitors KNOW what they are and what they deserve. But do you think someone who spent their life thinking they were law abiding citizens get imprisoned for life? Fair?
A good person who knowingly does a crime is punishable. But a good person who does good deeds gets a life imprisonment in he'll cuz he didn't have the name of ten right God? Literally that's his only crime. I understand for God to take care of us and someone not honouring him is indeed a very big issue. But look at the level of fitna today? Look at all the cleverly crafted misconceptions. It's enough to make a person never warrant another look at Islam unfortunately.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Im gonna send a link to an article talking about this issue: http://partytilfajr.tumblr.com/post/...-going-to-hell
By a former imam who specialises in Sharia. He's got all the ayat cited etc

Thanks. I'll check it out right now.
Reply

azc
03-06-2018, 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Not at all. Both law abiders and traitors KNOW what they are and what they deserve. But do you think someone who spent their life thinking they were law abiding citizens get imprisoned for life? Fair?
A good person who knowingly does a crime is punishable. But a good person who does good deeds gets a life imprisonment in he'll cuz he didn't have the name of ten right God? Literally that's his only crime. I understand for God to take care of us and someone not honouring him is indeed a very big issue. But look at the level of fitna today? Look at all the cleverly crafted misconceptions. It's enough to make a person never warrant another look at Islam unfortunately.

- - - Updated - - -



Thanks. I'll check it out right now.
The traitor who is aware of the law commits crime against the country is a more serious criminal than the one who doesn't know of it, however, the court will treat them equally...
Is it injustice..?

How good you are in your personal life will not give you any loopholes to escape from law.

Is it injustice...?

But according to your logic you are challenging the law and court why the criminals are punished if they are good people in their lives...

Are not wrong...?

It's sheer stupidity of the traitors to think of escaping from law because they are nice people and their complaint of not treating them at par the the law abiding citizens doesn't make any sense.

Do you still support the traitors...?
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by azc
The traitor who is aware of the law commits crime against the country is a more serious criminal than the one who doesn't know of it, however, the court will treat them equally...
Is it injustice..?

How good you are in your personal life will not give you any loopholes to escape from law.

Is it injustice...?

But according to your logic you are challenging the law and court why the criminals are punished if they are good people in their lives...

Are not wrong...?

It's sheer stupidity of the traitors to think of escaping from law because they are nice people and their complaint of not treating them at par the the law abiding citizens doesn't make any sense.

Do you still support the traitors...?
Thanks for your effort. You don't understand what I am saying.

I'll simplify it. Let's say there are 3 major laws. All of them similar and dissimilar in certain ways. OBEY ONE,BREAK THE OTHER TWO. All three preclude the others. Lots of info and disinfo about all three. Many people following one of the three laws. But only one is correct. Proper research and dedication can guide one to the one but realistically it's not possible for everyone to do this.

Now tell me. If you ended up obeying the wrong law is it still just/fair?
Reply

Ümit
03-06-2018, 08:35 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad
I am sorry to hear this. Hope you will gain your faith back soon inshaallah.
You are forgetting your purpose why you are on Earth. Your purpose is to pass a test. The test is about believing in our one and only God or not. you can do great things on earth (And you will be rewarded greatly for your efforts, here on earth or temporarily in thehereafter...but if you do not believe in God or reject Islam, then you will not pass the test. your eventual destiny will be Hell.

Just like a regular math test. you can make the most beautiful drawings during a math test, but if you do not know the answer, you will not pass the test.

Allah gives a lot of signs to show you he is there. your task is to see those signs, and recognize our God behind it. It makes very much sense.
in fact, you will be given a lot of chances. if you even have faith in God by the weight of a mustard seed, you eventually will go to heaven inshaallah.
which means is that you actively has to do a lot wrong to deserve hell for eternity.

Originally Posted by azc
No good deed go waste. They are rewarded in this worldly life for their good deeds in form of wealth, fame or popularity etc.

So you are protesting to leave Islam in defence of their stubbornness for rejecting the truth.
For what I know is that they can also be rewarded in Barzaq (the waiting period in the grave)
the grave can be like one of the gardens of Heaven or one of the pits of Hell. Those people who did many good deeds, but reject Islam will be rewarded greatly for their actions on Earth in the Barzaq but when judgement day comes...and they already received their rewards...and no longer have good deeds to be rewarded anymore...but just sins because of their disbelief...they will go to Hell.
the difference:
Heaven and Hell are both eternal. you will not leave once you are in one of them.
Barzaq can be a temporary heaven or hell. just to even good and bad deeds out. thanks to Barzaq, believers on judgement day will not have sins to pay for, because they already paid for their sins in the grave, and non believers will not have good deeds to get rewarded for because they are rewarded in the grave.
Allah is just to everyone.

Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you so much for your answer. I'm not protesting, I long for my faith and it seems as though I'll never get it back. I used to be a very very pious person but slowly lost it. I feel lost and alone.
And hence I'm here
But think of this. Look at what media has portray ed Islam as. Look at what Isis has done. How will anyone believe Islam is the light now? And its not their fault. And I can't believe they'll go to hell. In the Qur'an it clearly states no kalima means hellfire. Right?

Thank you for your time. Doesn't it say in the Qur'an somewhere that if you died without reciting kalimah you'll go to hell no matter(not sure about the no matter part)
That is not true. If you did not hear about Islam but you still believe in God on your own, you are still a believer.
Believing in God is in us. We were made to believe in God. we do not need messengers, books or whatever to actually believe in God. Allah just send His books and messengers to guide us to the right path...to teach us about him.
There are still people out there in strict communities with no tv or internet available or banned...completely shut from the outside world...the have never heard about Islam, or only bad stuff, and they do not have a chance to investigate on their own.

Examples of people who never might have heard about Islam, so they never said or had the chance to say the kalimah...but still stand a chance to go to heaven:
there was one Island somewhere in the Philipines who threw spears to approaching planes and helicopters. they attack approaching ships. they do not allow strangers to their Island.
or people living like the Amish. no technology, no contact with the outside world.
or people living isolated in distant locations, high in the mountains or some small poor villages.
children too young (younger than 7 usually) who are not mature enough to distinguish between good and bad.
mentally challenged people who do not have the ability to distinguish between good and bad.

only people who have heard about Islam and who rejected it...or actively chooses to disbelieve...or believes that besides Allah, there are other Gods...they deserve Hell.

Originally Posted by azc
Media isn't Muslim friendly, so it's not reliable.

Who's behind IS.?, who is giving them weapons..?

IS or any group which kills innocent people (even they are non Muslims) doesn't represent Islam.
I do not believe that the IS are Muslim at all. You cannot go terrorize innocent people. No goal can justify their actions. it is wrong on so many levels.
They will meet their 70 virgins in thehereafter...but they won't be females...

Originally Posted by lost_one
Yes but millions of innocents don't know this. In today's life one can't be so concerned with religion that's they start researching it.
Is it only those stopped their life to pursue religion and I doing so found Islam got salvation but those who devoted to serving humanity didn't?
life is short brother...but still long enough to think about what you believe. No one is so occupied in life that they had not a chance to think about what will happen to him after death.

Originally Posted by lost_one
And that's exactly what's wrong. Doesn't anyone think that something is wrong with this? So many genuinely good people go to hell where as a Muslim who JUST HAPPENED to be born in a Muslim household goes to heaven?
You get to go to heaven since you're born in a Muslim family and not because you made the world a better place? And vice versa Others don't?
And it was God's decision to put you in a Muslim household. How is this fair?
No it is not wrong.
again, they will be rewarded greatly for their efforts, but they will not benefit from it, because it is just temporary...they eventually go to hell for rejecting Islam. (this great reward is just pennies compared to the reward of entering Jannah).

Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you for your time. Thanks to everyone for their effort.

Anyways so God decided to throw half the population to hell and we're not allowed to question it?
Please I implore everyone to think about this. Just like we are convinced of going to heaven so many Christians and Jews are too.

Most of us didn't chose our religion. We got it from parents, never questioned and that's the basis for entrance to paradise?

Please tell me where? If its true its all I need.
It is your choice to believe or not. Not God's. God only knows which option you will choose. That is the price of having freedom of choice. if you could not choose between good and bad, then you would not have true freedom of choice.
freedom of choice is the thing which gives us a higher rank than any other creature of Allah...because we can actually CHOOSE to serve Allah even if we do not have to.

- - - Updated - - -


Originally Posted by lost_one
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad
I am sorry to hear this. Hope you will gain your faith back soon inshaallah.
You are forgetting your purpose why you are on Earth. Your purpose is to pass a test. The test is about believing in our one and only God or not. you can do great things on earth (And you will be rewarded greatly for your efforts, here on earth or temporarily in thehereafter...but if you do not believe in God or reject Islam, then you will not pass the test. your eventual destiny will be Hell.

Just like a regular math test. you can make the most beautiful drawings during a math test, but if you do not know the answer, you will not pass the test.

Allah gives a lot of signs to show you he is there. your task is to see those signs, and recognize our God behind it. It makes very much sense.
in fact, you will be given a lot of chances. if you even have faith in God by the weight of a mustard seed, you eventually will go to heaven inshaallah.
which means is that you actively has to do a lot wrong to deserve hell for eternity.

Originally Posted by azc
No good deed go waste. They are rewarded in this worldly life for their good deeds in form of wealth, fame or popularity etc.

So you are protesting to leave Islam in defence of their stubbornness for rejecting the truth.
For what I know is that they can also be rewarded in Barzaq (the waiting period in the grave)
the grave can be like one of the gardens of Heaven or one of the pits of Hell. Those people who did many good deeds, but reject Islam will be rewarded greatly for their actions on Earth in the Barzaq but when judgement day comes...and they already received their rewards...and no longer have good deeds to be rewarded anymore...but just sins because of their disbelief...they will go to Hell.
the difference:
Heaven and Hell are both eternal. you will not leave once you are in one of them.
Barzaq can be a temporary heaven or hell. just to even good and bad deeds out. thanks to Barzaq, believers on judgement day will not have sins to pay for, because they already paid for their sins in the grave, and non believers will not have good deeds to get rewarded for because they are rewarded in the grave.
Allah is just to everyone.

Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you so much for your answer. I'm not protesting, I long for my faith and it seems as though I'll never get it back. I used to be a very very pious person but slowly lost it. I feel lost and alone.
And hence I'm here
But think of this. Look at what media has portray ed Islam as. Look at what Isis has done. How will anyone believe Islam is the light now? And its not their fault. And I can't believe they'll go to hell. In the Qur'an it clearly states no kalima means hellfire. Right?

Thank you for your time. Doesn't it say in the Qur'an somewhere that if you died without reciting kalimah you'll go to hell no matter(not sure about the no matter part)
That is not true. If you did not hear about Islam but you still believe in God on your own, you are still a believer.
Believing in God is in us. We were made to believe in God. we do not need messengers, books or whatever to actually believe in God. Allah just send His books and messengers to guide us to the right path...to teach us about him.
There are still people out there in strict communities with no tv or internet available or banned...completely shut from the outside world...the have never heard about Islam, or only bad stuff, and they do not have a chance to investigate on their own.

Examples of people who never might have heard about Islam, so they never said or had the chance to say the kalimah...but still stand a chance to go to heaven:
there was one Island somewhere in the Philipines who threw spears to approaching planes and helicopters. they attack approaching ships. they do not allow strangers to their Island.
or people living like the Amish. no technology, no contact with the outside world.
or people living isolated in distant locations, high in the mountains or some small poor villages.
children too young (younger than 7 usually) who are not mature enough to distinguish between good and bad.
mentally challenged people who do not have the ability to distinguish between good and bad.

only people who have heard about Islam and who rejected it...or actively chooses to disbelieve...or believes that besides Allah, there are other Gods...they deserve Hell.

Originally Posted by azc
Media isn't Muslim friendly, so it's not reliable.

Who's behind IS.?, who is giving them weapons..?

IS or any group which kills innocent people (even they are non Muslims) doesn't represent Islam.
I do not believe that the IS are Muslim at all. You cannot go terrorize innocent people. No goal can justify their actions. it is wrong on so many levels.
They will meet their 70 virgins in thehereafter...but they won't be females...

Originally Posted by lost_one
Yes but millions of innocents don't know this. In today's life one can't be so concerned with religion that's they start researching it.
Is it only those stopped their life to pursue religion and I doing so found Islam got salvation but those who devoted to serving humanity didn't?
life is short brother...but still long enough to think about what you believe. No one is so occupied in life that they had not a chance to think about what will happen to him after death.

Originally Posted by lost_one
And that's exactly what's wrong. Doesn't anyone think that something is wrong with this? So many genuinely good people go to hell where as a Muslim who JUST HAPPENED to be born in a Muslim household goes to heaven?
You get to go to heaven since you're born in a Muslim family and not because you made the world a better place? And vice versa Others don't?
And it was God's decision to put you in a Muslim household. How is this fair?
No it is not wrong.
again, they will be rewarded greatly for their efforts, but they will not benefit from it, because it is just temporary...they eventually go to hell for rejecting Islam. (this great reward is just pennies compared to the reward of entering Jannah).

Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you for your time. Thanks to everyone for their effort.

Anyways so God decided to throw half the population to hell and we're not allowed to question it?
Please I implore everyone to think about this. Just like we are convinced of going to heaven so many Christians and Jews are too.

Most of us didn't chose our religion. We got it from parents, never questioned and that's the basis for entrance to paradise?

Please tell me where? If its true its all I need.
It is your choice to believe or not. Not God's. God only knows which option you will choose. That is the price of having freedom of choice. if you could not choose between good and bad, then you would not have true freedom of choice.
freedom of choice is the thing which gives us a higher rank than any other creature of Allah...because we can actually CHOOSE to serve Allah even if we do not have to.
Reply

Eric H
03-06-2018, 08:48 AM
Greetings and peace be with you lost_one; and welcome tot he forum,

Study and reflect on the 99 names of Allah. Allah is compassionate, so he will be far more compassionate than you or me. Allah is forgiving, and this is mentioned three times in his names, he is merciful just and righteous. When you reflect on his names, it seems Allah wants to be merciful more than he wants to punish.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God,

Eric
Reply

azc
03-06-2018, 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Thanks for your effort. You don't understand what I am saying.

I'll simplify it. Let's say there are 3 major laws. All of them similar and dissimilar in certain ways. OBEY ONE,BREAK THE OTHER TWO. All three preclude the others. Lots of info and disinfo about all three. Many people following one of the three laws. But only one is correct. Proper research and dedication can guide one to the one but realistically it's not possible for everyone to do this.

Now tell me. If you ended up obeying the wrong law is it still just/fair?
Rub is that something is etched in your mind and you are considering this issue I've raised through the glasses of that particular mentality.

First take this one and then, wait, I'll take all your fallacious reasoning one by one. InshaAllah

So , come again instead of running away from answering the simple Qs...

I again ask, now one by one.

Do you think if law abiding citizens of your country and traitors are equal..?
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by azc

I again ask, now one by one.

Do you think if law abiding citizens of your country and traitors are equal..?
Thank you user azc for your time.

As for the answer. No.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by umie
I am sorry to hear this. Hope you will gain your faith back soon inshaallah.
You are forgetting your purpose why you are on Earth. Your purpose is to pass a test. The test is about believing in our one and only God or not. you can do great things on earth (And you will be rewarded greatly for your efforts, here on earth or temporarily in thehereafter...but if you do not believe in God or reject Islam, then you will not pass the test. your eventual destiny will be Hell.

Just like a regular math test. you can make the most beautiful drawings during a math test, but if you do not know the answer, you will not pass the test.

Allah gives a lot of signs to show you he is there. your task is to see those signs, and recognize our God behind it. It makes very much sense.
in fact, you will be given a lot of chances. if you even have faith in God by the weight of a mustard seed, you eventually will go to heaven inshaallah.
which means is that you actively has to do a lot wrong to deserve hell for eternity.


For what I know is that they can also be rewarded in Barzaq (the waiting period in the grave)
the grave can be like one of the gardens of Heaven or one of the pits of Hell. Those people who did many good deeds, but reject Islam will be rewarded greatly for their actions on Earth in the Barzaq but when judgement day comes...and they already received their rewards...and no longer have good deeds to be rewarded anymore...but just sins because of their disbelief...they will go to Hell.
the difference:
Heaven and Hell are both eternal. you will not leave once you are in one of them.
Barzaq can be a temporary heaven or hell. just to even good and bad deeds out. thanks to Barzaq, believers on judgement day will not have sins to pay for, because they already paid for their sins in the grave, and non believers will not have good deeds to get rewarded for because they are rewarded in the grave.
Allah is just to everyone.


That is not true. If you did not hear about Islam but you still believe in God on your own, you are still a believer.
Believing in God is in us. We were made to believe in God. we do not need messengers, books or whatever to actually believe in God. Allah just send His books and messengers to guide us to the right path...to teach us about him.
There are still people out there in strict communities with no tv or internet available or banned...completely shut from the outside world...the have never heard about Islam, or only bad stuff, and they do not have a chance to investigate on their own.

Examples of people who never might have heard about Islam, so they never said or had the chance to say the kalimah...but still stand a chance to go to heaven:
there was one Island somewhere in the Philipines who threw spears to approaching planes and helicopters. they attack approaching ships. they do not allow strangers to their Island.
or people living like the Amish. no technology, no contact with the outside world.
or people living isolated in distant locations, high in the mountains or some small poor villages.
children too young (younger than 7 usually) who are not mature enough to distinguish between good and bad.
mentally challenged people who do not have the ability to distinguish between good and bad.

only people who have heard about Islam and who rejected it...or actively chooses to disbelieve...or believes that besides Allah, there are other Gods...they deserve Hell.


I do not believe that the IS are Muslim at all. You cannot go terrorize innocent people. No goal can justify their actions. it is wrong on so many levels.
They will meet their 70 virgins in thehereafter...but they won't be females...



life is short brother...but still long enough to think about what you believe. No one is so occupied in life that they had not a chance to think about what will happen to him after death.



No it is not wrong.
again, they will be rewarded greatly for their efforts, but they will not benefit from it, because it is just temporary...they eventually go to hell for rejecting Islam. (this great reward is just pennies compared to the reward of entering Jannah).


It is your choice to believe or not. Not God's. God only knows which option you will choose. That is the price of having freedom of choice. if you could not choose between good and bad, then you would not have true freedom of choice.
freedom of choice is the thing which gives us a higher rank than any other creature of Allah...because we can actually CHOOSE to serve Allah even if we do not have to.

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I am sorry to hear this. Hope you will gain your faith back soon inshaallah.
You are forgetting your purpose why you are on Earth. Your purpose is to pass a test. The test is about believing in our one and only God or not. you can do great things on earth (And you will be rewarded greatly for your efforts, here on earth or temporarily in thehereafter...but if you do not believe in God or reject Islam, then you will not pass the test. your eventual destiny will be Hell.

Just like a regular math test. you can make the most beautiful drawings during a math test, but if you do not know the answer, you will not pass the test.

Allah gives a lot of signs to show you he is there. your task is to see those signs, and recognize our God behind it. It makes very much sense.
in fact, you will be given a lot of chances. if you even have faith in God by the weight of a mustard seed, you eventually will go to heaven inshaallah.
which means is that you actively has to do a lot wrong to deserve hell for eternity.


For what I know is that they can also be rewarded in Barzaq (the waiting period in the grave)
the grave can be like one of the gardens of Heaven or one of the pits of Hell. Those people who did many good deeds, but reject Islam will be rewarded greatly for their actions on Earth in the Barzaq but when judgement day comes...and they already received their rewards...and no longer have good deeds to be rewarded anymore...but just sins because of their disbelief...they will go to Hell.
the difference:
Heaven and Hell are both eternal. you will not leave once you are in one of them.
Barzaq can be a temporary heaven or hell. just to even good and bad deeds out. thanks to Barzaq, believers on judgement day will not have sins to pay for, because they already paid for their sins in the grave, and non believers will not have good deeds to get rewarded for because they are rewarded in the grave.
Allah is just to everyone.


That is not true. If you did not hear about Islam but you still believe in God on your own, you are still a believer.
Believing in God is in us. We were made to believe in God. we do not need messengers, books or whatever to actually believe in God. Allah just send His books and messengers to guide us to the right path...to teach us about him.
There are still people out there in strict communities with no tv or internet available or banned...completely shut from the outside world...the have never heard about Islam, or only bad stuff, and they do not have a chance to investigate on their own.

Examples of people who never might have heard about Islam, so they never said or had the chance to say the kalimah...but still stand a chance to go to heaven:
there was one Island somewhere in the Philipines who threw spears to approaching planes and helicopters. they attack approaching ships. they do not allow strangers to their Island.
or people living like the Amish. no technology, no contact with the outside world.
or people living isolated in distant locations, high in the mountains or some small poor villages.
children too young (younger than 7 usually) who are not mature enough to distinguish between good and bad.
mentally challenged people who do not have the ability to distinguish between good and bad.

only people who have heard about Islam and who rejected it...or actively chooses to disbelieve...or believes that besides Allah, there are other Gods...they deserve Hell.


I do not believe that the IS are Muslim at all. You cannot go terrorize innocent people. No goal can justify their actions. it is wrong on so many levels.
They will meet their 70 virgins in thehereafter...but they won't be females...



life is short brother...but still long enough to think about what you believe. No one is so occupied in life that they had not a chance to think about what will happen to him after death.



No it is not wrong.
again, they will be rewarded greatly for their efforts, but they will not benefit from it, because it is just temporary...they eventually go to hell for rejecting Islam. (this great reward is just pennies compared to the reward of entering Jannah).


It is your choice to believe or not. Not God's. God only knows which option you will choose. That is the price of having freedom of choice. if you could not choose between good and bad, then you would not have true freedom of choice.
freedom of choice is the thing which gives us a higher rank than any other creature of Allah...because we can actually CHOOSE to serve Allah even if we do not have to.
Thank you user umie for your elaborate answer.
Allow me to reply.
First. I believe in a God. Just not sure if it's Allah. Why? Cuz the fact that good non Muslims will go to hell just cuz of their religion.
Second any reward or punishment is nothing compared to an eternity I'm heaven or hell. To say that a good and kind non Muslim will get his reward in barzaq and hence Allah is just, is plain wrong to me as you mention, it's nothing compared to eternity.
Thirdly life is far too busy for some to think on these issues. You and I have time to discuss this but answer me this? How many peopl you know have free time that they spend on these thoughts? How Manu do you know? So if someone heard if Islam after 9/11 or after learning of Isis and choose to reject it is it there fault? Please answer me this.

Lastly, in the end it comes down to this. One third of the people will go to heaven JUST CAUSE GOD placed them on the wrong piece of land. There is evidence for islam just like it is for Christianity. Yet good Christians will go to hell according to islam? Right or wrong?
So God is still just and loving? How?
How can everyone be so complacent with this thought process?

Shouldn't hell be JUST for sinners?
I'll say it out loud- is our God really that narcissistic that he'll only put those who say his name in heaven and throw everything else out yhe Window? Cuz in the end that's what you all are sayin in which case I refuse to believe he's just or kind.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-06-2018, 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
And that's exactly what's wrong. Doesn't anyone think that something is wrong with this? So many genuinely good people go to hell where as a Muslim who JUST HAPPENED to be born in a Muslim household goes to heaven?
You get to go to heaven since you're born in a Muslim family and not because you made the world a better place? And vice versa Others don't?
And it was God's decision to put you in a Muslim household. How is this fair?
Tell you what, you can bring it up on the Day of Judgement to your Creator. Something tells me you won't have that courage to do so like you do now....
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Tell you what, you can bring it up on the Day of Judgement to your Creator. Something tells me you won't have that courage to do so like you do now....
So its not a loving GOD but one who's just going to subject everyone to his order. Eternal reward to some torture to others.

You're dam straight I won't be able these thing yet I still believe I'll get a chance to explain myself. I don't/ can't believe the image of God like the one you just painted....

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And I have spent my time thinking on this issue. I have prayed as user Eric suggested and begged God to guide me back or to take me back into his fold.

I'm still lost.

Confused and disconsolate about the standard for admission to hell or heaven.......not good or bad deeds....but in who's name do we do it.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-06-2018, 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
So its not a loving GOD but one who's just going to subject everyone to his order. Eternal reward to some torture to others.

You're dam straight I won't be able these thing yet I still believe I'll get a chance to explain myself. I don't/ can't believe the image of God like the one you just painted....
Kindly remove Islam as your religion in your profile so Muslims can know that you are just a troll causing fitnah in a Muslim forum.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by lost_one
So its not a loving GOD but one who's just going to subject everyone to his order. Eternal reward to some torture to others.

You're dam straight I won't be able these thing yet I still believe I'll get a chance to explain myself. I don't/ can't believe the image of God like the one you just painted....
Kindly remove Islam as your religion in your profile so Muslims can know that you are just a troll causing fitnah in a Muslim forum.
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Kindly remove Islam as your religion in your profile so Muslims can know that you are just a troll causing fitnah in a Muslim forum.

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Kindly remove Islam as your religion in your profile so Muslims can know that you are just a troll causing fitnah in a Muslim forum.
Done. Changing my religion on a forum site will not change my beliefs but if it hurts someone I'll change it gladly.

Regarding the forum thing you know that if I ask such questions from family they'll disown me. If I go to a mosque they'll stone me to death. Should I go to an atheist forum? A Christian one?

This is the only place I can ask for help and some very informative people have helped me. I'm not that educated in Islam either. The picture shown to me of Islam was far worse then people here have shown me for which I'm grateful.

Why can't anyone see it from my view point?
Why can't you see I'm only asking this for the good people in my life that will perish because of this?
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-06-2018, 11:11 AM
Being angry at Allah Azza wa Jal and His Qadr or accusing Him of injustice is not the behavior of a Muslim. Going on a Muslim forum and spreading this fitnah is worse. And you don't hurt me but yourself and can infect Muslims on here who are weak in iman and naiive. Why would a Muslim want to see your viewpoint. It is dangerous. It is the language of the Shaytan. I suggest you get it right before your respite is over and you end up A. not convincing the Angels in the grave of your Islam and B. coming on the Day of Judgement with these type of thoughts. And Allah Knows Best.
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Being angry at Allah Azza wa Jal and His Qadr or accusing Him of injustice is not the behavior of a Muslim. Going on a Muslim forum and spreading this fitnah is worse. And you don't hurt me but yourself and can infect Muslims on here who are weak in iman and naiive. Why would a Muslim want to see your viewpoint. It is dangerous. It is the language of the Shaytan. I suggest you get it right before your respite is over and you end up A. not convincing the Angels in the grave of your Islam and B. coming on the Day of Judgement with these type of thoughts. And Allah Knows Best.
I asked for help. You're not helping so leave this thread. If I wanted the kind of replies you're giving I'd go to the mosque nearby.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-06-2018, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
I asked for help. You're not helping so leave this thread. If I wanted the kind of replies you're giving I'd go to the mosque nearby.
No you want people to tell you what you want to hear not what you need to know. You want to see if other unfortunate people feel like you. Al-Hamdulllilah, your local masjid and family were repulsed by your evil suggestions. You are not looking for help. You are looking for trouble.
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 11:21 AM
And my image of God is far more loving than what you have painted out. I'm not perfect but his creation none the less.

Iman that achieved through reasoning is far far stronger than by believing just because. That's what's dangerous. That's how Isis was created. Not questioning anything just following blindly is the road to tyranny and oppression

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And my image of God is far more loving than what you have painted out. I'm not perfect but his creation none the less.

Iman that achieved through reasoning is far far stronger than by believing just because. That's what's dangerous. That's how Isis was created. Not questioning anything just following blindly is the road to tyranny and oppression

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Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
No you want people to tell you what you want to hear not what you need to know. You want to see if other unfortunate people feel like you. Al-Hamdulllilah, your local masjid and family were repulsed by your evil suggestions. You are not looking for help. You are looking for trouble.
Once again. Please leave and let others handle this thread.
Reply

Ümit
03-06-2018, 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you user azc for your time.

As for the answer. No.

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Thank you user umie for your elaborate answer.
Allow me to reply.
First. I believe in a God. Just not sure if it's Allah. Why? Cuz the fact that good non Muslims will go to hell just cuz of their religion.
Second any reward or punishment is nothing compared to an eternity I'm heaven or hell. To say that a good and kind non Muslim will get his reward in barzaq and hence Allah is just, is plain wrong to me as you mention, it's nothing compared to eternity.
Thirdly life is far too busy for some to think on these issues. You and I have time to discuss this but answer me this? How many peopl you know have free time that they spend on these thoughts? How Manu do you know? So if someone heard if Islam after 9/11 or after learning of Isis and choose to reject it is it there fault? Please answer me this.

Lastly, in the end it comes down to this. One third of the people will go to heaven JUST CAUSE GOD placed them on the wrong piece of land. There is evidence for islam just like it is for Christianity. Yet good Christians will go to hell according to islam? Right or wrong?
So God is still just and loving? How?
How can everyone be so complacent with this thought process?

Shouldn't hell be JUST for sinners?
I'll say it out loud- is our God really that narcissistic that he'll only put those who say his name in heaven and throw everything else out yhe Window? Cuz in the end that's what you all are sayin in which case I refuse to believe he's just or kind.
You are very wrong on this one brother. good non muslims go to hell because they reject Islam. They reject to believe in Allah...which is what the whole test here on Earth is about.
You are here on Earth for only one Question: Do you believe in Allah or not?
you can do many good deeds, but eventually it still comes down to this question.
You have to believe in Allah to pass the test.

I recently read a thread here which disturbed me very much.
I do not know if it is true, because I did not see any validation of it with hadeeth...but I share it anyways with you because it is a loaded story and it gave me goosebumps when I read it:

Before we came into this world let us say (in theherebefore) there was this issue with Ibliss Ibliss was a great creature with impressive powers...he had more power than any other creature but he got arrogant.
he said he was a partner of Allah or that he had similar powers as Allah.
He convinced some creators and some creatures doubted.

Finally Allah asked "who is your God?" The angels chose the safe way and said "Allah" The Jinns and shaytaan chose for the answer "Ibliss can be a God too"...and the humans did not answer. We wanted to find on our own.
That is why we are here on Earth...to find on our own who our God is...and there is a lot at stake.
I cannot find the link to it anymore...but when I heard this...it struck me like lightning.
So, we are here because we could not answer the Question "who is your God" in theherebefore...
My daughter is 19 months old...so she is here also because she too failed to answer this simple question.
everyone I love in this world failed to answer this...that is why we are here...to find out on our own.
Hopefully we will all find the correct answer so that we can pass this second test.

Originally Posted by lost_one
Second any reward or punishment is nothing compared to an eternity I'm heaven or hell. To say that a good and kind non Muslim will get his reward in barzaq and hence Allah is just, is plain wrong to me as you mention, it's nothing compared to eternity.
your good deeds are nothing compared to the reward you will get for it in the Barzaq. So you will be compensated more than enough for your good deeds. But of course that is still nothing compared to the entrance of Jannah....But for this you must believe.
Allah is just to everyone.

Originally Posted by lost_one
Thirdly life is far too busy for some to think on these issues. You and I have time to discuss this but answer me this? How many peopl you know have free time that they spend on these thoughts? How Manu do you know? So if someone heard if Islam after 9/11 or after learning of Isis and choose to reject it is it there fault? Please answer me this.
believe me, everyone has thought about death in his life and what happens next...no matter how busy they are. Death is the one thing which is unevidable...and then you either believe in a God, or you do not.
Someone who hears about ISIS or 9/11 is supposed to investigate what is wrong if he has this opportunity. if he doesn't have this opportunity, or which reason ever they did not obtain true information about Islam and that is why they are not believing, then they cannot be blamed for it. But at least, they still have to believe in God.
Again...you are considered a believer if you have faith with the weight of a mustard seed.
Originally Posted by lost_one
Lastly, in the end it comes down to this. One third of the people will go to heaven JUST CAUSE GOD placed them on the wrong piece of land. There is evidence for islam just like it is for Christianity. Yet good Christians will go to hell according to islam? Right or wrong?
So God is still just and loving? How?
How can everyone be so complacent with this thought process?
no one gets a burden which he cannot carry. no one will undergo a test which he cannot pass...so being placed on a different piece of land should not matter. some people undergo a more difficult test than others...strong people undergo a heavier test.
Allah knows who goes where, but good Christians who choose to be Christian, even though they heard about Islam will go to Hell, yes. They are rejecting Islam. They choose to believe in Jesus as a God...as a Trinity.
Originally Posted by lost_one
Shouldn't hell be JUST for sinners?
I'll say it out loud- is our God really that narcissistic that he'll only put those who say his name in heaven and throw everything else out yhe Window? Cuz in the end that's what you all are sayin in which case I refuse to believe he's just or kind.
You will regret that you have said this one day...but OK...your choice...
It is the price we pay for having freedom of choice...it is the freedom to choose for the bad and risk Hell.
without Hell we would not have this freedom...we would be just like angels and animals...doing what we were designed for.

Like said, many many times...your purpose here is to believe in God...doing good deeds alone will be rewarded greatly, but it is not enough to earn your place in heaven.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you user azc for your time.

As for the answer. No.

- - - Updated - - -



Thank you user umie for your elaborate answer.
Allow me to reply.
First. I believe in a God. Just not sure if it's Allah. Why? Cuz the fact that good non Muslims will go to hell just cuz of their religion.
Second any reward or punishment is nothing compared to an eternity I'm heaven or hell. To say that a good and kind non Muslim will get his reward in barzaq and hence Allah is just, is plain wrong to me as you mention, it's nothing compared to eternity.
Thirdly life is far too busy for some to think on these issues. You and I have time to discuss this but answer me this? How many peopl you know have free time that they spend on these thoughts? How Manu do you know? So if someone heard if Islam after 9/11 or after learning of Isis and choose to reject it is it there fault? Please answer me this.

Lastly, in the end it comes down to this. One third of the people will go to heaven JUST CAUSE GOD placed them on the wrong piece of land. There is evidence for islam just like it is for Christianity. Yet good Christians will go to hell according to islam? Right or wrong?
So God is still just and loving? How?
How can everyone be so complacent with this thought process?

Shouldn't hell be JUST for sinners?
I'll say it out loud- is our God really that narcissistic that he'll only put those who say his name in heaven and throw everything else out yhe Window? Cuz in the end that's what you all are sayin in which case I refuse to believe he's just or kind.
You are very wrong on this one brother. good non muslims go to hell because they reject Islam. They reject to believe in Allah...which is what the whole test here on Earth is about.
You are here on Earth for only one Question: Do you believe in Allah or not?
you can do many good deeds, but eventually it still comes down to this question.
You have to believe in Allah to pass the test.

I recently read a thread here which disturbed me very much.
I do not know if it is true, because I did not see any validation of it with hadeeth...but I share it anyways with you because it is a loaded story and it gave me goosebumps when I read it:

Before we came into this world let us say (in theherebefore) there was this issue with Ibliss Ibliss was a great creature with impressive powers...he had more power than any other creature but he got arrogant.
he said he was a partner of Allah or that he had similar powers as Allah.
He convinced some creators and some creatures doubted.

Finally Allah asked "who is your God?" The angels chose the safe way and said "Allah" The Jinns and shaytaan chose for the answer "Ibliss can be a God too"...and the humans did not answer. We wanted to find on our own.
That is why we are here on Earth...to find on our own who our God is...and there is a lot at stake.
I cannot find the link to it anymore...but when I heard this...it struck me like lightning.
So, we are here because we could not answer the Question "who is your God" in theherebefore...
My daughter is 19 months old...so she is here also because she too failed to answer this simple question.
everyone I love in this world failed to answer this...that is why we are here...to find out on our own.
Hopefully we will all find the correct answer so that we can pass this second test.

Originally Posted by lost_one
Second any reward or punishment is nothing compared to an eternity I'm heaven or hell. To say that a good and kind non Muslim will get his reward in barzaq and hence Allah is just, is plain wrong to me as you mention, it's nothing compared to eternity.
your good deeds are nothing compared to the reward you will get for it in the Barzaq. So you will be compensated more than enough for your good deeds. But of course that is still nothing compared to the entrance of Jannah....But for this you must believe.
Allah is just to everyone.

Originally Posted by lost_one
Thirdly life is far too busy for some to think on these issues. You and I have time to discuss this but answer me this? How many peopl you know have free time that they spend on these thoughts? How Manu do you know? So if someone heard if Islam after 9/11 or after learning of Isis and choose to reject it is it there fault? Please answer me this.
believe me, everyone has thought about death in his life and what happens next...no matter how busy they are. Death is the one thing which is unevidable...and then you either believe in a God, or you do not.
Someone who hears about ISIS or 9/11 is supposed to investigate what is wrong if he has this opportunity. if he doesn't have this opportunity, or which reason ever they did not obtain true information about Islam and that is why they are not believing, then they cannot be blamed for it. But at least, they still have to believe in God.
Again...you are considered a believer if you have faith with the weight of a mustard seed.
Originally Posted by lost_one
Lastly, in the end it comes down to this. One third of the people will go to heaven JUST CAUSE GOD placed them on the wrong piece of land. There is evidence for islam just like it is for Christianity. Yet good Christians will go to hell according to islam? Right or wrong?
So God is still just and loving? How?
How can everyone be so complacent with this thought process?
no one gets a burden which he cannot carry. no one will undergo a test which he cannot pass...so being placed on a different piece of land should not matter. some people undergo a more difficult test than others...strong people undergo a heavier test.
Allah knows who goes where, but good Christians who choose to be Christian, even though they heard about Islam will go to Hell, yes. They are rejecting Islam. They choose to believe in Jesus as a God...as a Trinity.
Originally Posted by lost_one
Shouldn't hell be JUST for sinners?
I'll say it out loud- is our God really that narcissistic that he'll only put those who say his name in heaven and throw everything else out yhe Window? Cuz in the end that's what you all are sayin in which case I refuse to believe he's just or kind.
You will regret that you have said this one day...but OK...your choice...
It is the price we pay for having freedom of choice...it is the freedom to choose for the bad and risk Hell.
without Hell we would not have this freedom...we would be just like angels and animals...doing what we were designed for.

Like said, many many times...your purpose here is to believe in God...doing good deeds alone will be rewarded greatly, but it is not enough to earn your place in heaven.
Reply

azc
03-06-2018, 11:46 AM
@lost_one

When citizens who follow the laws of the land and traitors regardless of their good qualities are not equal, then why you can think those who don't believe in dominion of God and divine laws can be considered as equal as those follow the laws of God...?

Do you believe in One God or, Do you define Hundreds of Gods for all the religions practiced around the globe..?

Do you believe in Christianity or Judaism or any other religion..?
(it stands for abrogated laws of God)

Or

Do you believe in perennialism..?
(impractical for divine laws)

Or

Do you believe in NO religion..?

(it stands for lawlessness)

or

You are still a Muslim by faith..?
Reply

sabah11
03-06-2018, 01:36 PM
Allahua Akhbar this is weswes...do you think you know better than the Almihgty Allah who deserves hell or heaven? Just weswes from the satan and why it make sense who is moslim or not? I know but hurts when you have family who arent muslim but you should love fear and trusting Allah

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May Allah lead you. Whe can discuss hours or days but Allah do what He wants so He can lead you to islam or do you astray. May Allah protect us ameen

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by lost_one
So its not a loving GOD but one who's just going to subject everyone to his order. Eternal reward to some torture to others.

You're dam straight I won't be able these thing yet I still believe I'll get a chance to explain myself. I don't/ can't believe the image of God like the one you just painted....

- - - Updated - - -

And I have spent my time thinking on this issue. I have prayed as user Eric suggested and begged God to guide me back or to take me back into his fold.

I'm still lost.

Confused and disconsolate about the standard for admission to hell or heaven.......not good or bad deeds....but in who's name do we do it.



I am sorry but it hurts me because we have alhamdulillah a beloved God. La illaha illah lah. Rahman al rahiem. Only the worst people deserve hell. You cant knowing what is in thear hearts. Dont judge a book by his cover. And second not every non believer go to hell. Only who nows islam and reject it. And ex muslims are worser. Correct me if I am wrong brothers and sisters.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 03:51 PM
WE DONT KNOW WHO'S GOING TO HEAVEN OR HELL END OF STORY!! We should all just strive to do good deeds and act accordingly. Its normal to have questions and its good to use logic etc but you seem to be going in circles my friend. Part of our belief is accepting that we cant foretell the future therefore we cant tell who will see heaven and who will see hell. In fact i think Islam is pretty equal in that regards- it doesnt favour muslims in terms of heaven or hell, plus the Quran says that Jews and Christians can go to heaven.
Reply

space
03-06-2018, 03:58 PM
sometimes some people want to try to show how they smart are at religious aspects how they religious are... People turned the religion into a kind of joy toy. Everyone will find in the grave what they did in the world
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you for your time. Thanks to everyone for their effort.

Anyways so God decided to throw half the population to hell and we're not allowed to question it?
Please I implore everyone to think about this. Just like we are convinced of going to heaven so many Christians and Jews are too.

Most of us didn't chose our religion. We got it from parents, never questioned and that's the basis for entrance to paradise?

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Please tell me where? If its true its all I need.
لَيْسَ بِأَمَانِيِّكُمْ وَلَا أَمَانِيِّ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ ۗ مَنْ يَعْمَلْ سُوءًا يُجْزَ بِهِ وَلَا يَجِدْ لَهُ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلِيًّا وَلَا نَصِيرًا

(Sahih International)
Paradise is not [obtained] by your wishful thinking nor by that of the People of the Scripture. Whoever does a wrong will be recompensed for it, and he will not find besides Allah a protector or a helper.

-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 123
There we go! Illustrates that OUR THINKING WE WILL GO TO HEAVEN BECAUSE WE ARE MUSLIM IS INCORRECT. It also refutes the Jew's claims they'll achieve salvation through them being "God's chosen people".
Furthermore im gonna reccomend you a tumblr blog called Partytilfajr. Its very good and is written by a former imam i think, you can submit questions etc and he'll answer.
Reply

Ümit
03-06-2018, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
WE DONT KNOW WHO'S GOING TO HEAVEN OR HELL END OF STORY!! We should all just strive to do good deeds and act accordingly. Its normal to have questions and its good to use logic etc but you seem to be going in circles my friend. Part of our belief is accepting that we cant foretell the future therefore we cant tell who will see heaven and who will see hell. In fact i think Islam is pretty equal in that regards- it doesnt favour muslims in terms of heaven or hell, plus the Quran says that Jews and Christians can go to heaven.
İ believe he is just missing some basic information.
Please do not lose your patience with such people...we want them to come back to İslam and we do that by patiently answering their questions...provide them information...show them our good manners...love and compassion...and hope that one day they realize what is right and what is wrong...before it is too late...
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by umie
İ believe he is just missing some basic information.
Please do not lose your patience with such people...we want them to come back to İslam and we do that by patiently answering their questions...provide them information...show them our good manners...love and compassion...and hope that one day they realize what is right and what is wrong...before it is too late...
Im aware i came across as agressive, i didnt intend to :(
Reply

Eric H
03-06-2018, 05:38 PM
Greetings and peace be with you lost_one;
So its not a loving GOD but one who's just going to subject everyone to his order. Eternal reward to some torture to others.
Possibly only a handful of people deserve salvation through their own deeds, but it will be through the grace and mercy of Allah that the majority earn salvation. As I read through the 99 names of Allah, they seem to lean more towards mercy than they do towards punishment

I like the 35th name of Allah, 'Ash-Shakoor' meaning The Grateful, The Appreciative, The One who gives a lot of reward for a little obedience.

Although no one can judge in the way that Allah will judge, the names of Allah give us hope,

Blessings
Eric
Reply

lost_one
03-06-2018, 06:16 PM
Dear brothers. Thank you for your time and patience till now. Most importantly I get you. I get it.
I'll formulate a proper reply to all who answered my request for help tomorrow.(including the one person who sent a personal message, I can't reply to you brother since am not a full member yet) And by reply I mean thanks not more arguments.
Thank you once again
Reply

najimuddin
03-06-2018, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad

:salam:

I just thought I'd try and add to the conversation...

A learned sage that I admire mentioned that people who question the justness and compassion of Allah based on the evil – both real and perceived – they see in the world actually have a very high opinion of Allah. In other words, they don’t think that a “just and loving” supreme being would allow for such things to happen. Based on this understanding, a Muslim should temper defensive reactions to such questions and comments and focus on attempting to answer them in a genuinely caring way. That’s not to dismiss, however, the person who has demonstrated nefarious intentions.

It can be hard to come to terms with things we don’t necessarily agree with. One possible way to cope is to contemplate the possibility that we may not fully understand the disagreeable situation(s). For a Muslim, who believes in the truthfulness of Muhammad :saws:, the incident of Musa :as: and Khidr :as: is a prime example of how outwardly disagreeable events become acceptable once the reality of what’s going on is made known.

Some may scoff at the “belief in the truthfulness of Muhammad :saws:” part I mentioned. That’s understandable. The Muslim Ummah is in a state of rot. Based on the principles of how Islam was – and is still being – transmitted, the testimony of most Muslims in the world would not be accepted as reliable. That’s an unfortunate reality we face in this day and age and it's not surprising to find sincere seekers of the truth becoming despondent. I’ve been fortunate to have been introduced to people who, in my assessment, are truthful and continue to carry on the tradition of authentic Islamic scholarship and practice.

In light of the above, the punishments mentioned in Islam are meant to be deterrents. Implementing them are not as easy as we see in some “Muslim” countries. There is a distinction between being technically Muslim and the proper following of Islam – which you will not find in any “Muslim” country.

Additionally, condemning someone to eternal punishment is Allah’s jurisdiction. Yes, the warnings are there. Yes, Muslims are ordered to obey Allah’s commandments. Yes, disobeying Allah – including kufr – is detrimental to oneself and society. No, getting eternal punishment is not a black and white affair when it comes to Allah’s judgment. Please note that this is not a blank check to do whatever we want. Allah has created us to listen to what He wants us to do.

We need to sincerely reflect on what we can and cannot control along with the opportunities for guidance that may have been provided to us. Allah will not hold us accountable for things that were beyond our control. And be sure, when the time comes, you will only be worried about yourself - just like a defendant in court is solely focused on the outcome of his or her trial.
Reply

azc
03-06-2018, 07:52 PM
@lost_one :

Bro, When we listen the lectures or read the books of pious people the light of their piety is transmitted to our heart, likewise when we listen or read those people who're drowned in shirk and kufr, darkness of their sins is also transmitted to our heart.

So we must keep in touch with pious and righteous ppl; and must stay away from wrong people
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 09:46 PM
@lost_one i apologise for becoming agressive. I truly wish yiu the best and i hope you find peace soon
Reply

sabah11
03-07-2018, 04:05 AM
The Muslim will not be punished for the waswas that comes from the Shaytan or from his own nafs, so long as he does not speak of it or act upon it. But he is commanded to resist it, and if he neglects to resist it and gives in to it, then he will be punished for that neglect.


https://islamqa.info/en/39684





Dont believe everything on the internet. If you have weswes seek refuge with Allah and ignore these thougths....asalam wa3alikoum

Sources of Waswas and Accountability - islamqa.info
Id like to know if there is a way to distinguish the waswasah insinuating whispers that is coming from the shaytanand the waswasah coming from the nafs souland ...
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-07-2018, 08:07 AM
Damn! The amount of arrogance in some of these posts are disgusting! ... Im sorry you had to read through some of these posts @lost_one ... La hawla walaa kuwata illa bellah.

Brother, you have it wrong. The thing is that ... i dont think most people realise that you are asking about people who haven't got an actual legit chance at knowing what islam in its true form is (the form of peace and how its a way of life).
Your right in saying that those people shouldnt suffer hell fire because it becomes injustices if they were never given a proper chance at becoming muslim.
Your right to say that it is unjust to throw people into hell only because they were raised in a non muslim family and had to adopt their parent's religion.
Your right in assuming its unjust to throw all non muslims whether good or bad into hellfire just based on their religion or kalimah.

There are many cases like this such as the people in north korea who have almost zero access to the real world and islam, isolated tribes in africa, children and babies who haven't been born yet, etc ... These people will not be judged like you and i. We actually got the chance to learn about islam and see what its about. How can we ever compare them to us? its not right. However, the people who actually deserve hellfire are those who have seen the miracles with their own eyes, become convinced that islam is the truth yet still choose to not follow it out of stubbornness and arrogance. How do those people deserve anything but hellfire? those who mislead the people below them astray and away from the path of Allah? Those who killed the prophets like the Israelites?

Have a look at these videos, I think they answer the gist of your question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE50azsAgis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVqj9wZG48A

The last link is a little bit far from your question but is still somewhat related.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVbcD0Vku_I
Reply

azc
03-07-2018, 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
Damn! The amount of arrogance in some of these posts are disgusting! ... Im sorry you had to read through some of these posts @lost_one ... La hawla walaa kuwata illa bellah.

Brother, you have it wrong. The thing is that ... i dont think most people realise that you are asking about people who haven't got an actual legit chance at knowing what islam in its true form is (the form of peace and how its a way of life).
Your right in saying that those people shouldnt suffer hell fire because it becomes injustices if they were never given a proper chance at becoming muslim.
Your right to say that it is unjust to throw people into hell only because they were raised in a non muslim family and had to adopt their parent's religion.
Your right in assuming its unjust to throw all non muslims whether good or bad into hellfire just based on their religion or kalimah.

There are many cases like this such as the people in north korea who have almost zero access to the real world and islam, isolated tribes in africa, children and babies who haven't been born yet, etc ... These people will not be judged like you and i. We actually got the chance to learn about islam and see what its about. How can we ever compare them to us? its not right. However, the people who actually deserve hellfire are those who have seen the miracles with their own eyes, become convinced that islam is the truth yet still choose to not follow it out of stubbornness and arrogance. How do those people deserve anything but hellfire? those who mislead the people below them astray and away from the path of Allah? Those who killed the prophets like the Israelites?

Have a look at these videos, I think they answer the gist of your question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE50azsAgis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVqj9wZG48A

The last link is a little bit far from your question but is still somewhat related.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVbcD0Vku_I
You mean all kuffar will not go to hell...?
Reply

Ümit
03-07-2018, 08:40 AM
@ChosenTCO
That is exactly what I have been saying. I also mentioned some examples of people or groups of people who never got the chance to know what is Islam about and still can be considered as believers.
these people do not know Islam, they may not have heard about the prophets, and books, but still have a chance to a place in Heaven. However, these people still need to believe in God. Believíng in one God is already intrinsically in us. We do not need anything to be able to believe in one God. again, faith as much as a mustard grain is enough to earn a place in heaven.

Of course you still have the group of people who are mentally not able to think about religion...like small children, and mentally challenged people. Those people of course are not just thrown in Hell just because they had no chance to believe in God.

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@ChosenTCO
That is exactly what I have been saying. I also mentioned some examples of people or groups of people who never got the chance to know what is Islam about and still can be considered as believers.
these people do not know Islam, they may not have heard about the prophets, and books, but still have a chance to a place in Heaven. However, these people still need to believe in God. Believíng in one God is already intrinsically in us. We do not need anything to be able to believe in one God. again, faith as much as a mustard grain is enough to earn a place in heaven.

Of course you still have the group of people who are mentally not able to think about religion...like small children, and mentally challenged people. Those people of course are not just thrown in Hell just because they had no chance to believe in God.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-07-2018, 10:13 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Dear brothers. Thank you for your time and patience till now. Most importantly I get you. I get it.
I'll formulate a proper reply to all who answered my request for help tomorrow.(including the one person who sent a personal message, I can't reply to you brother since am not a full member yet) And by reply I mean thanks not more arguments.
Thank you once again
Sorry for being rude or arrogant in my previous posts brother, i honestly idk. I apologise brother if i caused offence.
Reply

azc
03-07-2018, 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by umie
@ChosenTCO
That is exactly what I have been saying. I also mentioned some examples of people or groups of people who never got the chance to know what is Islam about and still can be considered as believers.
these people do not know Islam, they may not have heard about the prophets, and books, but still have a chance to a place in Heaven. However, these people still need to believe in God. Believíng in one God is already intrinsically in us. We do not need anything to be able to believe in one God. again, faith as much as a mustard grain is enough to earn a place in heaven.

Of course you still have the group of people who are mentally not able to think about religion...like small children, and mentally challenged people. Those people of course are not just thrown in Hell just because they had no chance to believe in God.

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@ChosenTCO
That is exactly what I have been saying. I also mentioned some examples of people or groups of people who never got the chance to know what is Islam about and still can be considered as believers.
these people do not know Islam, they may not have heard about the prophets, and books, but still have a chance to a place in Heaven. However, these people still need to believe in God. Believíng in one God is already intrinsically in us. We do not need anything to be able to believe in one God. again, faith as much as a mustard grain is enough to earn a place in heaven.

Of course you still have the group of people who are mentally not able to think about religion...like small children, and mentally challenged people. Those people of course are not just thrown in Hell just because they had no chance to believe in God.
Mentally retarded adult and children of disbelievers may be among people of a'raaf but those didn't get the msg of Islam will be considered as believers is questionable.
Do you see any evidence in Quran and sunnah explicitly clarified this issue..?
Reply

Ümit
03-07-2018, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Mentally retarded adult and children of disbelievers may be among people of a'raaf but those didn't get the msg of Islam will be considered as believers is questionable.
Do you see any evidence in Quran and sunnah explicitly clarified this issue..?
To be honost, no I do not.
I do not have evidence for this claim, but I think this is just logic, and Islam is all about logic.

It is hard to imagine that such people still exist.
I have family living in a small village in West Turkey. until 15 years ago, no one had a pc over there. they used to trade with each other fruits and vegetables. for meat, they would hunt. they only needed money to pay for clothes, electricity and fuel for tractors etc.
only some of them had a TV. the nearest small city was a one hour drive. They did not have much contact with the rest of the world.

imagine you are born in such a village. you have a daily duty to take care of the crops on your land. your fruit and vegetables, you can trade for something else, or you can sell on a local market. you do not have internet, only a tv and newspapers.
there is no libary. you happened to live in a non-muslim community. how much chance do you have to learn about Islam? the only thing you see on TV about Islam is when there is a terroris act somewhere on the news. would you then consider Islam as the true religion? would you consider to investigate what is Islam truely about?

what you can do, is to question yourself whether the religion in your village makes sense to you or not...and if not, you can disbelieve...but to look for an alternative? where would you start? your religious leader would not advise you towards other religions...instead, he would lie or try to convince of his own religion. So you know something is not right but what?

and then you die...then what? Hell?

I think the situation of those people is not much different than of the situation of children and mentally challenged people.

If such villages existed in west turkey 15 years ago...then we can assume the world is still full with such locations where people do not have the opportunity to a little investigation about religion.

In Africa there still are a lot of people who do not have shelter, food or water...forget about tv's, newspapers, internet, etc.
even then, a lot of them are illiterate...how on Earth would they start their investigation?
the ability of reading and writing is very natural for us...but not everyone has this ability developed. these people are fully dependant on their superiors or religious leaders if they even have any.
what options do they have in life other than questioning their own religion? they can only feel that there is something wrong with it...but not much more.
Thank goodness most of those African countries are already Muslim because of the Ottoman empire...but still, there are still locations where Islam is not present.
Reply

Brighten
03-07-2018, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad
Because they don't have knowledge of the deen.
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-07-2018, 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by azc
You mean all kuffar will not go to hell...?
All kuffar will go to hell. The question is, are all non-muslims considered kuffar? The answer is, no they are not all kuffar.
For someone to be a kafir he first has to acknowledge that islam is the true religion of Allah, then still refuses to accept it. This is what defines a kafir.
What about the non-believers who never heard of islam or even heard about it but was deterred away by the outward look that most westerners have about islam? Are those considered kuffar. The answer is no they are not considered kuffar, therefore even non believers still have a chance to earn Allah's mercy and enter jannah by His grace.

If you speak arabic and understand the language, here are few videos that explain the definition of what true kufr really means ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoqYEI_mD4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGWZ6aVCaQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchizAe_4Ew

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Originally Posted by azc
You mean all kuffar will not go to hell...?
All kuffar will go to hell. The question is, are all non-muslims considered kuffar? The answer is, no they are not all kuffar.
For someone to be a kafir he first has to acknowledge that islam is the true religion of Allah, then still refuses to accept it. This is what defines a kafir.
What about the non-believers who never heard of islam or even heard about it but was deterred away by the outward look that most westerners have about islam? Are those considered kuffar. The answer is no they are not considered kuffar, therefore even non believers still have a chance to earn Allah's mercy and enter jannah by His grace.

If you speak arabic and understand the language, here are few videos that explain the definition of what true kufr really means ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoqYEI_mD4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGWZ6aVCaQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchizAe_4Ew
Reply

Brighten
03-07-2018, 12:41 PM
Hey thanks for this post bro I learned something.
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-07-2018, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Sorry for being rude or arrogant in my previous posts brother, i honestly idk. I apologise brother if i caused offence.
I wasnt referring to your posts in mine. Sorry if i caused any misunderstanding for you. From your posts, I know you sometimes can get really passionate about the things you talk about and it may seem to be an aggressive tone, but i for one totally understand that you dont mean it :D. I know because i have family members who are just like that ... and even i used to be like that :giggling:

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Originally Posted by Brighten
Hey thanks for this post bro I learned something.
I dont know who exactly are you referring to but im glad you learned something ... even if it wasnt from me.
Reply

Brighten
03-07-2018, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
I dont know who exactly are you referring to but im glad you learned something ... even if it wasnt from me.
Yes bro, I'm referring to you. :)
Reply

azc
03-07-2018, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by umie
To be honost, no I do not.
I do not have evidence for this claim, but I think this is just logic, and Islam is all about logic.

It is hard to imagine that such people still exist.
I have family living in a small village in West Turkey. until 15 years ago, no one had a pc over there. they used to trade with each other fruits and vegetables. for meat, they would hunt. they only needed money to pay for clothes, electricity and fuel for tractors etc.
only some of them had a TV. the nearest small city was a one hour drive. They did not have much contact with the rest of the world.

imagine you are born in such a village. you have a daily duty to take care of the crops on your land. your fruit and vegetables, you can trade for something else, or you can sell on a local market. you do not have internet, only a tv and newspapers.
there is no libary. you happened to live in a non-muslim community. how much chance do you have to learn about Islam? the only thing you see on TV about Islam is when there is a terroris act somewhere on the news. would you then consider Islam as the true religion? would you consider to investigate what is Islam truely about?

what you can do, is to question yourself whether the religion in your village makes sense to you or not...and if not, you can disbelieve...but to look for an alternative? where would you start? your religious leader would not advise you towards other religions...instead, he would lie or try to convince of his own religion. So you know something is not right but what?

and then you die...then what? Hell?

I think the situation of those people is not much different than of the situation of children and mentally challenged people.

If such villages existed in west turkey 15 years ago...then we can assume the world is still full with such locations where people do not have the opportunity to a little investigation about religion.

In Africa there still are a lot of people who do not have shelter, food or water...forget about tv's, newspapers, internet, etc.
even then, a lot of them are illiterate...how on Earth would they start their investigation?
the ability of reading and writing is very natural for us...but not everyone has this ability developed. these people are fully dependant on their superiors or religious leaders if they even have any.
what options do they have in life other than questioning their own religion? they can only feel that there is something wrong with it...but not much more.
Thank goodness most of those African countries are already Muslim because of the Ottoman empire...but still, there are still locations where Islam is not present.
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
All kuffar will go to hell. The question is, are all non-muslims considered kuffar? The answer is, no they are not all kuffar.
For someone to be a kafir he first has to acknowledge that islam is the true religion of Allah, then still refuses to accept it. This is what defines a kafir.
What about the non-believers who never heard of islam or even heard about it but was deterred away by the outward look that most westerners have about islam? Are those considered kuffar. The answer is no they are not considered kuffar, therefore even non believers still have a chance to earn Allah's mercy and enter jannah by His grace.

If you speak arabic and understand the language, here are few videos that explain the definition of what true kufr really means ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoqYEI_mD4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGWZ6aVCaQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchizAe_4Ew

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All kuffar will go to hell. The question is, are all non-muslims considered kuffar? The answer is, no they are not all kuffar.
For someone to be a kafir he first has to acknowledge that islam is the true religion of Allah, then still refuses to accept it. This is what defines a kafir.
What about the non-believers who never heard of islam or even heard about it but was deterred away by the outward look that most westerners have about islam? Are those considered kuffar. The answer is no they are not considered kuffar, therefore even non believers still have a chance to earn Allah's mercy and enter jannah by His grace.

If you speak arabic and understand the language, here are few videos that explain the definition of what true kufr really means ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoqYEI_mD4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGWZ6aVCaQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchizAe_4Ew
Are we really authorised to decide about them devoid of any evidence from kitab and sunnah...?
Reply

Ümit
03-07-2018, 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Are we really authorised to decide about them devoid of any evidence from kitab and sunnah...?
you are asking the wrong questions bro.
We are most certainly not authorized to decide about them...but we are not deciding anything.
We are just discussing what might happen to those people and we use our logic and reasoning for it.
Allah has not given us the power of reasoning for nothing...you can use that too besides Quran and sunnah.

The only one who decides over their destiny is Allah of course...
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-07-2018, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
I wasnt referring to your posts in mine. Sorry if i caused any misunderstanding for you. From your posts, I know you sometimes can get really passionate about the things you talk about and it may seem to be an aggressive tone, but i for one totally understand that you dont mean it :D. I know because i have family members who are just like that ... and even i used to be like that :giggling:

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I dont know who exactly are you referring to but im glad you learned something ... even if it wasnt from me.
Yea i was meant to tag rhw op in this but i kinda forgot loool. Thanks thooo
Reply

azc
03-07-2018, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by umie
you are asking the wrong questions bro.
We are most certainly not authorized to decide about them...but we are not deciding anything.
We are just discussing what might happen to those people and we use our logic and reasoning for it.
Allah has not given us the power of reasoning for nothing...you can use that too besides Quran and sunnah.

The only one who decides over their destiny is Allah of course...
Do these people have no reasoning power to ponder over the existence of their Lord...?

Suppose someone living in a remote area involves in any activity which is a crime according to law of the land he is unaware thereof.

Will he be exonerated by the court for not knowing the law...?

If we begin to drive the rulings based on our reasoning power, then this deen will become a toy that everyone will play with
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-07-2018, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Are we really authorised to decide about them devoid of any evidence from kitab and sunnah...?
{Quran 17:15}
Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.

For those who passed away before Allah sent his message to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), they will be exempted from punishment. For those who didn't get a chance to hear the message of Allah will be exempted, those who were misled and incorrectly taught about islam. All of them will be exempted from Allah's punishment on judgement day. However, the people who actually got a chance to research and chase after the truth but were unwilling will be judge differently by Allah.

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Originally Posted by umie
you are asking the wrong questions bro.
We are most certainly not authorized to decide about them...but we are not deciding anything.
We are just discussing what might happen to those people and we use our logic and reasoning for it.
Allah has not given us the power of reasoning for nothing...you can use that too besides Quran and sunnah.

The only one who decides over their destiny is Allah of course...
And to specifically highlight and add on to what you said. We don't have the license to say they are going to hell either. So its a nono from either way you think about it! @azc

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And one more thing. You asked if we are authorised to decide for them if they are exempted from punishment based on evidence from kitab or sunnah. Now i ask you, is there any proof that shows that all non-believers are kuffar? or that they will be punished in hellfire?
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azc
03-07-2018, 01:59 PM
Who am I to decide who are kuffar and who are not...?

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Sayyiduna ‘Ali (radiyallahu ‘anhu) said:“If the religion were based on opinion, it would be more important to wipe [make masah on] the under part of the leather sock rather than the upper, however, I have seen Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) wipe the upper part.”(Sunan Abi Dawud, Hadith: 163, At Talkhisul Habir, Hadith: 717)

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Sayyiduna ‘Ali (radiyallahu ‘anhu) said:“If the religion were based on opinion, it would be more important to wipe [make masah on] the under part of the leather sock rather than the upper, however, I have seen Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) wipe the upper part.”(Sunan Abi Dawud, Hadith: 163, At Talkhisul Habir, Hadith: 717)
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-07-2018, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Do these people have no reasoning power to ponder over the existence of their Lord...?

Suppose someone living in a remote area involves in any activity which is a crime according to law of the land he is unaware thereof.

Will he be exonerated by the court for not knowing the law...?

If we begin to drive the rulings based on our reasoning power, then this deen will become a toy that everyone will play with
1) if that were the case with everyone then for sure there would have been no need for Prophets or messengers from Allah. You would see billions more of muslims around the world but reality tells us different. The world is too full of distractions and hardships that distracts us away from having these philosophical thoughts to ponder over. Some people cant even stop chasing after a single penny to feed their family with and improve their livelihood. Ofc The majority wont have time to think about these things.

2) if these people are so isolated to the point that they have never heard of the government system then yes they should be exempted from the punishment of state law. else it would not be fair. Its even the goverment's responsibility to recognize each individual living over its land and establish status as authority for all of them, because if it didnt, then they shouldnt except or everyone to follow their law. Else it would be unjust of them to assume that they would.
Reply

Ümit
03-07-2018, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Do these people have no reasoning power to ponder over the existence of their Lord...?
Of course they have reasoning power...which they are using that there is something wrong with their religion...but that reasoning power is not enough to know about Islam and our messengers.
Originally Posted by azc
Suppose someone living in a remote area involves in any activity which is a crime according to law of the land he is unaware thereof.

Will he be exonerated by the court for not knowing the law...?
This is a slightly different situation. you cannot compare the court of law with the court of Allah.
I got fined for driving through red traffic light a couple of years ago.
In reality, I did not drive through red...I saw the light too late and braked and stopped behind the stop line. of course there was a sensor right there, so it took my photo, and I got fined. It was not my intention to drive through red, but still I had to pay for it, because law is law.

If I would drive around with summer tyres in the Netherlands under winterish conditions, then there is nothing wrong with it...but if I cross the border into Germany...I would get a ticket for that...whether I know or not.


Tell me, does Allah also work like that?
Originally Posted by azc
If we begin to drive the rulings based on our reasoning power, then this deen will become a toy that everyone will play with
Nobody is driving the rulings for anything...we are just discussing.
why are you afraid to use your reasoning?

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Originally Posted by azc
Do these people have no reasoning power to ponder over the existence of their Lord...?
Of course they have reasoning power...which they are using that there is something wrong with their religion...but that reasoning power is not enough to know about Islam and our messengers.
Originally Posted by azc
Suppose someone living in a remote area involves in any activity which is a crime according to law of the land he is unaware thereof.

Will he be exonerated by the court for not knowing the law...?
This is a slightly different situation. you cannot compare the court of law with the court of Allah.
I got fined for driving through red traffic light a couple of years ago.
In reality, I did not drive through red...I saw the light too late and braked and stopped behind the stop line. of course there was a sensor right there, so it took my photo, and I got fined. It was not my intention to drive through red, but still I had to pay for it, because law is law.

If I would drive around with summer tyres in the Netherlands under winterish conditions, then there is nothing wrong with it...but if I cross the border into Germany...I would get a ticket for that...whether I know or not.


Tell me, does Allah also work like that?
Originally Posted by azc
If we begin to drive the rulings based on our reasoning power, then this deen will become a toy that everyone will play with
Nobody is driving the rulings for anything...we are just discussing.
why are you afraid to use your reasoning?
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-07-2018, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Who am I to decide who are kuffar and who are not...?

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Sayyiduna ‘Ali (radiyallahu ‘anhu) said:“If the religion were based on opinion, it would be more important to wipe [make masah on] the under part of the leather sock rather than the upper, however, I have seen Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) wipe the upper part.”(Sunan Abi Dawud, Hadith: 163, At Talkhisul Habir, Hadith: 717)

- - - Updated - - -

Sayyiduna ‘Ali (radiyallahu ‘anhu) said:“If the religion were based on opinion, it would be more important to wipe [make masah on] the under part of the leather sock rather than the upper, however, I have seen Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) wipe the upper part.”(Sunan Abi Dawud, Hadith: 163, At Talkhisul Habir, Hadith: 717)
In my opinion this is a wrong analogy because to me, it is more logical that people would wipe over the sock than under. Think about it, how much of the impurity gets wipe off the bottom part of the sock while walking compared to the upper part? and even if you tell me that they wore slippers, then this would even make it more logical because the bottom part of the sock would be covered and the exposed part would be the one on top. ... i dont know bro but honestly, i still think its very logical to wipe on the upper part.
Reply

Ümit
03-07-2018, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Who am I to decide who are kuffar and who are not...?

- - - Updated - - -

Sayyiduna ‘Ali (radiyallahu ‘anhu) said:“If the religion were based on opinion, it would be more important to wipe [make masah on] the under part of the leather sock rather than the upper, however, I have seen Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) wipe the upper part.”(Sunan Abi Dawud, Hadith: 163, At Talkhisul Habir, Hadith: 717)

- - - Updated - - -

Sayyiduna ‘Ali (radiyallahu ‘anhu) said:“If the religion were based on opinion, it would be more important to wipe [make masah on] the under part of the leather sock rather than the upper, however, I have seen Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) wipe the upper part.”(Sunan Abi Dawud, Hadith: 163, At Talkhisul Habir, Hadith: 717)
In all respect brother, you are mixing up things.

this hadeeth is not about reasoning. without knowing this hadeeth and sunna, if you ask around "what is the best part of the foot to do mash on?" then you would get various answers because everyone would associate mash with "cleaning".

however, that is NOT the message our Prophet sas wanted to give us on this matter. the mash is a symbolic cleaning of the foot and that is why he choose the upper part to do mash on.

still very logical. this hadeeth does not say we are not allowed to use our logic and reasoning.
Reply

azc
03-07-2018, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
In my opinion this is a wrong analogy because to me, it is more logical that people would wipe over the sock than under. Think about it, how much of the impurity gets wipe off the bottom part of the sock while walking compared to the upper part? and even if you tell me that they wore slippers, then this would even make it more logical because the bottom part of the sock would be covered and the exposed part would be the one on top. ... i dont know bro but honestly, i still think its very logical to wipe on the upper part.
Interesting...!

You are criticizing Hz Ali ra...?

Anyways,

so you think all the people prior to advent of prophethood were not disbelievers..?

And it is based on conjecture..?

Or any evidence..?

So all the mushrikin of makka of that period who didn't know what shirk was, were included in believers...?

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@umie :

Where we have no evidence in Quran and sunnah, I can't drive the rulings as its related to ability of ijtihad which none of us has.

You are not discussing the issue rather passing a ruling about them and declaring them among the believers without any fear and you don't realize what you are doing. It's misuse of reasoning power.
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-07-2018, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Interesting...!

You are criticizing Hz Ali ra...?

Anyways,

so you think all the people prior to advent of prophethood were not disbelievers..?

And it is based on conjecture..?

Or any evidence..?

So all the mushrikin of makka of that period who didn't know what shirk was, were included in believers...?

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@umie:

Where we have no evidence in Quran and sunnah, I can't drive the rulings as its related to ability of ijtihad which none of us has.

You are not discussing the issue rather passing a ruling about them and declaring them among the believers without any fear and you don't realize what you are doing. It's misuse of reasoning power.
Just because i disagree with one conclusion that Hz Ali (RA) came to doesn't mean that i am criticizing him or disagree with what he stands for or him as a whole! My thought process simply got me to a conclusion that is different from his, and if you could point out to me where my logic fails, i would be more than willing to accept his statement as the one thats more correct. But if you are asking me to give a cold shoulder towards my intellect and critical thinking then im sorry but i will never do that! Because it is that which Allah allowed me to stay on his path with, and it is through it i was able to learn more about islam.

And yes, i do think that the people who passed away prior to islam are NOT disbelievers. Why? because in order for them to disbelieve in islam, they must first be presented with islam for them to either believe in it or disbelieve. Now i ask you, what is the conjecture about that? where does my logic fail in this?

Mushrikin, they were. No arguing about that. But when u ask if they're included in believers, i would say ofc not ... nor are they included with the disbelievers! Because they werent represented with islam to believe or disbelieve in it in the first place. The only thing that these people knew was the religion of their parents and grandparents which was polytheism, and it is that which they believed in. Doesnt make them Kuffar. Doesnt make them evil or deserving of hellfire. They are only people who died before the message of islam reached them.
Reply

SHO
03-07-2018, 07:10 PM
AsSalamu 'Alaykum



Originally Posted by lost_one
I long for my faith and it seems as though I'll never get it back. I used to be a very very pious person but slowly lost it. I feel lost and alone.
It happens sometimes,brother, you just don't need to worry.
I tell you this because ,once , I have experienced the same.
I was once a very strong believer, then suddenly lost my faith,had many doubts,etc , but then later, it returned with more strength. Now I feel stronger than earlier. And now understand that my doubts were not something worth losing my faith in Allah.
May Allah increase your Iman as well.


Originally Posted by lost_one
Iman that achieved through reasoning is far far stronger than by believing just because.
I can agree with that.
I think it is better to reason and understand than being a donkey carrying books it can't read.
But just think about it, Akhi , I don't think that your doubt is not something worth feeling lost and even changing your religious status. If you have a doubt, just clearing it is enough.
If you did not understand, just wait till you get it.



My brothers,I think it was not right to treat him like a pure kaafir and asking to change his religious status.
Everybody gets doubts. This person,I think, has come here to clear his doubt.

I think it is better to answer and clear his doubts calmly,if you know the answer.

I am not touching the topic since it is beyond the scope of my knowledge.

But,I opinion that this is true:

Originally Posted by umie
I am sorry to hear this. Hope you will gain your faith back soon inshaallah.
You are forgetting your purpose why you are on Earth. Your purpose is to pass a test. The test is about believing in our one and only God or not. you can do great things on earth (And you will be rewarded greatly for your efforts, here on earth or temporarily in thehereafter...but if you do not believe in God or reject Islam, then you will not pass the test. your eventual destiny will be Hell.
:
:
:
:
And Allah knows best.


May Allah Guide you and clear your doubts and increase your Iman, @lost_one .

(Sorry if I got anyone wrong or hurt anyone or if I did/said something wrong.Please correct me if I am wrong.I just expressed my opinion.)

Salaam.
S.H.O
Reply

Umm Malik
03-07-2018, 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad
BRother .. its allahs right he told us what he love and what won't forgive us "if we die doing it " it just one thing
allah tell us that I can easily forgive anything except if you associate partners with me and you die with it
Brother all of us will get reminders and if they don't accept it then they harm them own self
You too should think about how remuch reminders comes to you from allah and even your question here is one of guidance massage and chance .
So try to obey allah and do your best to pleased him and at that time this question will answer him self because the relationship with allah will proof you one day after another that allah is the truth and he is worthy to worship
And for example if you tell your brother my brother do anything you want but please don't do this I won't forgive you ... how generous you are at that time and how foolish will be your brother after that if he let everything and do that specific thing.
May allah guide you brother
Ameeen
Reply

Zzz_
03-08-2018, 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
And that's exactly what's wrong. Doesn't anyone think that something is wrong with this? So many genuinely good people go to hell where as a Muslim who JUST HAPPENED to be born in a Muslim household goes to heaven?
You get to go to heaven since you're born in a Muslim family and not because you made the world a better place? And vice versa Others don't?
And it was God's decision to put you in a Muslim household. How is this fair?
What you are failing to understand is the right of the owner. If you had a house and you allowed guests in your house. As a master of the house you can set your house rules as you deem fit and set rewards and punishment for those who obey or break those rules.

All of creation is Allah's domain. He has set rules for the benefit of mankind and sent Messengers as guide to help mankind. It is only befitting He rewards those who put the effort into obeying the rules and punish those who violates them.

You said so many good people go to hell. They maybe good to other people but they transgress against the Creator by denying Him His right of acknowledgement and worship. Who could be more unjust and unkind? how is such a person good?

Allah made paradise for the believers. But He is also a Just God, so those who do good deeds will get their rewards for it, be it Muslims or kuffar. With kuffars, they will have their reward in this world and none in the Hereafter. I don't know why peole complain when it's a lot easier to move up in the Herafter by following rules and guidelines already given. It's lot easier to work towards getting a higher status, all the wealth, ladies and power over there then in this world. So much corruption, back kissing, "networking" and still you get no where.

And no, Muslims don't go to heaven just by being born Muslims. They still have to work for it and will still be judged. Those whose sins are heavier then deeds will go to hell.

If God wanted, He could've made everyone a believer. But where is the free choice in that? He gave us a choice and the message of truth. Now either we accept it or deny it, it's up to us. There are billions born in non-Muslim homes. But look at how many thousands find their way back to Islam. It's not hard if one is actually looking for truth and guidance.

----

It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection. [so you see, everyone gets a fair chance! ]

https://islamqa.info/en/1244

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
All kuffar will go to hell. The question is, are all non-muslims considered kuffar? The answer is, no they are not all kuffar.
For someone to be a kafir he first has to acknowledge that islam is the true religion of Allah, then still refuses to accept it. This is what defines a kafir.
What about the non-believers who never heard of islam or even heard about it but was deterred away by the outward look that most westerners have about islam? Are those considered kuffar. The answer is no they are not considered kuffar, therefore even non believers still have a chance to earn Allah's mercy and enter jannah by His grace.
your logic is incorrect. By definition a believer is one who believes. Logically and by definition it stands to reason anyone who doesn't believe is by default a non-believer. And in Arabic we have Muslim (believer) and kuffar (disbeliever). Now there are different levels of each. A believer can be a believer by shahadah only and has no other knowledge or a momin. By the same token a disbeliever can be an ignorant person of Islam or one who knows and willfully rejects Islam. Each is at a different level.
Reply

azc
03-08-2018, 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
Just because i disagree with one conclusion that Hz Ali (RA) came to doesn't mean that i am criticizing him or disagree with what he stands for or him as a whole! My thought process simply got me to a conclusion that is different from his, and if you could point out to me where my logic fails, i would be more than willing to accept his statement as the one thats more correct. But if you are asking me to give a cold shoulder towards my intellect and critical thinking then im sorry but i will never do that! Because it is that which Allah allowed me to stay on his path with, and it is through it i was able to learn more about islam.And yes, i do think that the people who passed away prior to islam are NOT disbelievers. Why? because in order for them to disbelieve in islam, they must first be presented with islam for them to either believe in it or disbelieve. Now i ask you, what is the conjecture about that? where does my logic fail in this?Mushrikin, they were. No arguing about that. But when u ask if they're included in believers, i would say ofc not ... nor are they included with the disbelievers! Because they werent represented with islam to believe or disbelieve in it in the first place. The only thing that these people knew was the religion of their parents and grandparents which was polytheism, and it is that which they believed in. Doesnt make them Kuffar. Doesnt make them evil or deserving of hellfire. They are only people who died before the message of islam reached them.
https://islamqa.info/en/47170
Reply

Zafran
03-08-2018, 02:49 AM
I'll Just add - Nobody knows who is going to Heaven and Hell. We believe Allah swt is Merciful and through his grace is going to let people enter in to heaven who glorify Him and follow the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and all the previous prophets.

Focus on yourself and your nearest and dearest and leave the rest to Allah swt.

PS - it has nothing to do with being born in a Muslim family or not but on peoples actions and beliefs that only Allah swt knows.
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-08-2018, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Zzz_
your logic is incorrect. By definition a believer is one who believes. Logically and by definition it stands to reason anyone who doesn't believe is by default a non-believer. And in Arabic we have Muslim (believer) and kuffar (disbeliever). Now there are different levels of each. A believer can be a believer by shahadah only and has no other knowledge or a momin. By the same token a disbeliever can be an ignorant person of Islam or one who knows and willfully rejects Islam. Each is at a different level.
Just before i start, I just want to say that i deeply respect your opinion, but i assure you that it is incorrect (specifically your definitions of a believer and disbeliever). I am an arab and an arabic speaker myself. So its safe to say i have a very decent understanding of the language in general. And when it comes to specifics, i can easily research on a matter and conclude whether a word means that which the research claims or not.

1) "Logically and by definition it stands to reason anyone who doesn't believe is by default a non-believer." This is a logical fallacy in of itself (blackorwhite fallacy)
2) "Muslim=(believer)" ... That is incorrect. A muslim is a person who submits to Allah & his message but doesnt necessarily believes in it. A mu'men on the other hand IS a believer. PROOF=> (Quran 49:14)

The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

The words which bedouins used is "amanaa" (we believed) and Allah (AWJ) said "You have not become mu'menoon (believers) instead you have become muslimoon (submitters )"

By azc's claim and many on this thread, if a person is not a believer (aka mu'men) he is a disbeliever, (and according to the verse above, even if he says the kalima, he is still not yet a believer.) ... he is worthy of going to hell fire. What im saying is that this is wrong.
This also negates your other statement about shahada. "A believer can be a believer by shahadah only and has no other knowledge or a momin."

3) "kuffar=(disbeliever)" The second point and my previous posts here have already refuted this but i will further explain as needed. The origin of a state of kuffr is a state of acknowledgement. Kuffr linguistically means to cover or to veil, so basically that which you are committing an act of kuffr uppon has to exist (or be acknowledge in the case of intangible things such as belief) in order for an act of kuffr to be committed on it. So when you tell me that people who passed away prior to islam are kuffar then i say this doesnt even make sense. Its just like saying a bull is either milked or unmilked ... BUT ITS A BULL. get what im trying to say?
@azc in response to your link ... here is another link that refutes it.
http://ahlussunnahwaljamah.blogspot.ae/2008/03/another-lie-of-islamqa.html

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Originally Posted by Zzz_
your logic is incorrect. By definition a believer is one who believes. Logically and by definition it stands to reason anyone who doesn't believe is by default a non-believer. And in Arabic we have Muslim (believer) and kuffar (disbeliever). Now there are different levels of each. A believer can be a believer by shahadah only and has no other knowledge or a momin. By the same token a disbeliever can be an ignorant person of Islam or one who knows and willfully rejects Islam. Each is at a different level.
Just before i start, I just want to say that i deeply respect your opinion, but i assure you that it is incorrect (specifically your definitions of a believer and disbeliever). I am an arab and an arabic speaker myself. So its safe to say i have a very decent understanding of the language in general. And when it comes to specifics, i can easily research on a matter and conclude whether a word means that which the research claims or not.

1) "Logically and by definition it stands to reason anyone who doesn't believe is by default a non-believer." This is a logical fallacy in of itself (blackorwhite fallacy)
2) "Muslim=(believer)" ... That is incorrect. A muslim is a person who submits to Allah & his message but doesnt necessarily believes in it. A mu'men on the other hand IS a believer. PROOF=> (Quran 49:14)

The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

The words which bedouins used is "amanaa" (we believed) and Allah (AWJ) said "You have not become mu'menoon (believers) instead you have become muslimoon (submitters )"

By azc's claim and many on this thread, if a person is not a believer (aka mu'men) he is a disbeliever, (and according to the verse above, even if he says the kalima, he is still not yet a believer.) ... he is worthy of going to hell fire. What im saying is that this is wrong.
This also negates your other statement about shahada. "A believer can be a believer by shahadah only and has no other knowledge or a momin."

3) "kuffar=(disbeliever)" The second point and my previous posts here have already refuted this but i will further explain as needed. The origin of a state of kuffr is a state of acknowledgement. Kuffr linguistically means to cover or to veil, so basically that which you are committing an act of kuffr uppon has to exist (or be acknowledge in the case of intangible things such as belief) in order for an act of kuffr to be committed on it. So when you tell me that people who passed away prior to islam are kuffar then i say this doesnt even make sense. Its just like saying a bull is either milked or unmilked ... BUT ITS A BULL. get what im trying to say?
@azc in response to your link ... here is another link that refutes it.
http://ahlussunnahwaljamah.blogspot.ae/2008/03/another-lie-of-islamqa.html
Reply

azc
03-08-2018, 05:48 AM
Brother,

I can't imagine that the parents of prophet s.a.w can be in hell.

But when even this issue is disputed among scholars then how you can confirm of people of makka as people of heaven without any evidence.

As far as people of fitrah are concerned they might be among believers provided that they followed the religion of any past prophet and didn't commit shirk.

But after the advent of prophethood it's not applied to those who are unaware of Islam as we've no evidence of them being exempted from hellfire.

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Sayyiduna ‘Umar (radiyallahu ‘anhu) said:

Never delve into matters that do not concern you.

(Rawdatul ‘Uqala of Imam Ibn Hibban (rahimahullah), pg.82-83)
Reply

SHO
03-08-2018, 05:49 AM
AsSalamu 'Alaykum


This is from the Tafseer of Holy Qur'an 2:62 in Tafsir Ibn-Kathir


Attachment 6375



Attachment 6376



Attachment 6377



continued in the next post......................
Reply

SHO
03-08-2018, 05:52 AM
............continuation:



Attachment 6378

(END)




From Tafsir Ibn Kathir by Darussalam Publishers and Distributors
Attachment 6379




Thought it would help.


Salaam
S.H.O
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-08-2018, 07:17 AM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
All kuffar will go to hell. The question is, are all non-muslims considered kuffar? The answer is, no they are not all kuffar.
For someone to be a kafir he first has to acknowledge that islam is the true religion of Allah, then still refuses to accept it. This is what defines a kafir.
What about the non-believers who never heard of islam or even heard about it but was deterred away by the outward look that most westerners have about islam? Are those considered kuffar. The answer is no they are not considered kuffar, therefore even non believers still have a chance to earn Allah's mercy and enter jannah by His grace.

If you speak arabic and understand the language, here are few videos that explain the definition of what true kufr really means ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoqYEI_mD4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGWZ6aVCaQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchizAe_4Ew

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All kuffar will go to hell. The question is, are all non-muslims considered kuffar? The answer is, no they are not all kuffar.
For someone to be a kafir he first has to acknowledge that islam is the true religion of Allah, then still refuses to accept it. This is what defines a kafir.
What about the non-believers who never heard of islam or even heard about it but was deterred away by the outward look that most westerners have about islam? Are those considered kuffar. The answer is no they are not considered kuffar, therefore even non believers still have a chance to earn Allah's mercy and enter jannah by His grace.

If you speak arabic and understand the language, here are few videos that explain the definition of what true kufr really means ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoqYEI_mD4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGWZ6aVCaQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchizAe_4Ew
Is that shaykh sharaawy i see? My arabics not too great but iv seen some of his subbed vids, such an intelligent man allahi ra7mo.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-08-2018, 11:08 AM
Some people here need to watch this video and leave the justice to the Creator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQMXAcLrLUQ

Reply

sabah11
03-08-2018, 11:19 AM
Some people have to much time and acting like 3uluma.

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Oohhh, I forgot saying that the people you may concern with, maybe become muslims and you a disbeliever.....
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-08-2018, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Brother,

I can't imagine that the parents of prophet s.a.w can be in hell.

But when even this issue is disputed among scholars then how you can confirm of people of makka as people of heaven without any evidence.

As far as people of fitrah are concerned they might be among believers provided that they followed the religion of any past prophet and didn't commit shirk.

But after the advent of prophethood it's not applied to those who are unaware of Islam as we've no evidence of them being exempted from hellfire.
Its good that you cant believe it because that means that you still have the ability for sound reasoning and logic ... even general remorse as well as love for the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
I never claimed that the people of makka are people of heaven. I am only suggesting that they will have a different judgement/judging PROCESS than you and i. Becuase they didnt get a chance to hear about islam like you and i did. And thats why their condition is different and should have a different judging process. Like wise the infant or mentally handy cap person will be judged with a different process than us. Because their conditions were different! Unlike us were we are presented with the true islam, given the ability to comprehend that message and given the ability to accept it or not!

Think of it like this. A robot designer designs 1000 different types of robots. Each with different levels of intelligence, capabilities, tools, specs and what not. The designer decides to make a test for them and see which one will complete the test ... those who fail are considered unworthy of keeping and those who pass will get to stay. The test was done and finished.
Some of these robots had all that it took to pass this test and more but didnt try hard enough or were too arrogant.
Others barely made it.
Others didnt have what it takes to complete one part of the test and resulted in them not being able to continue with the rest of the test and ended up failing
Others were not even informed about the test and never attended it.
Now tell me, is it fair for the design to decommission all those who didnt pass as punishment, even though the designer was the one who made them that way and causes all their mishaps? Ofc not!
That is why these robots should be given another test to see if they will be worthy of keeping or for decommissioning.

Similarly, the humans who didnt get a chance to know about islam correctly will be given a second chance to prove themselves infront of god. I am not suggesting that they will automatically go to heaven! there is a difference between being given a second chance and being given paradise without proof of their worthiness.

Lastly. You are still thinking through a black or white mentality. No brother, even after islam came, some people will still not have heard of islam like the people in North Korea (Even the internet itself is illegal over there) and isolated tribes in africa. Allah will not judge them like he will judge us. He will give them a different trial completely. Again ... i am not suggesting they will go to heaven, i am saying that they will be given another test to assess their imaan. If you think that Allah will not do this then by definition, your version of Allah is an unjust God and i do not believe in that, Because i believe in what Allah said about himself in (Quran 8:51)

... and Allah is not ever unjust to His servants.

As for the Prophets parents, they will must be even a second chance as well ... whether they will pass this test or fail is a completely different story. So im not suggesting that the scholars and hadith is wrong, just that they will be given a second chance at proving themselves to Allah AWJ. Hope things are clear now and you understand what i was trying to say.
Reply

sabah11
03-08-2018, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
Its good that you cant believe it because that means that you still have the ability for sound reasoning and logic ... even general remorse as well as love for the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
I never claimed that the people of makka are people of heaven. I am only suggesting that they will have a different judgement/judging PROCESS than you and i. Becuase they didnt get a chance to hear about islam like you and i did. And thats why their condition is different and should have a different judging process. Like wise the infant or mentally handy cap person will be judged with a different process than us. Because their conditions were different! Unlike us were we are presented with the true islam, given the ability to comprehend that message and given the ability to accept it or not!

Think of it like this. A robot designer designs 1000 different types of robots. Each with different levels of intelligence, capabilities, tools, specs and what not. The designer decides to make a test for them and see which one will complete the test ... those who fail are considered unworthy of keeping and those who pass will get to stay. The test was done and finished.
Some of these robots had all that it took to pass this test and more but didnt try hard enough or were too arrogant.
Others barely made it.
Others didnt have what it takes to complete one part of the test and resulted in them not being able to continue with the rest of the test and ended up failing
Others were not even informed about the test and never attended it.
Now tell me, is it fair for the design to decommission all those who didnt pass as punishment, even though the designer was the one who made them that way and causes all their mishaps? Ofc not!
That is why these robots should be given another test to see if they will be worthy of keeping or for decommissioning.

Similarly, the humans who didnt get a chance to know about islam correctly will be given a second chance to prove themselves infront of god. I am not suggesting that they will automatically go to heaven! there is a difference between being given a second chance and being given paradise without proof of their worthiness.

Lastly. You are still thinking through a black or white mentality. No brother, even after islam came, some people will still not have heard of islam like the people in North Korea (Even the internet itself is illegal over there) and isolated tribes in africa. Allah will not judge them like he will judge us. He will give them a different trial completely. Again ... i am not suggesting they will go to heaven, i am saying that they will be given another test to assess their imaan. If you think that Allah will not do this then by definition, your version of Allah is an unjust God and i do not believe in that, Because i believe in what Allah said about himself in (Quran 8:51)

... and Allah is not ever unjust to His servants.

As for the Prophets parents, they will must be even a second chance as well ... whether they will pass this test or fail is a completely different story. So im not suggesting that the scholars and hadith is wrong, just that they will be given a second chance at proving themselves to Allah AWJ. Hope things are clear now and you understand what i was trying to say.


:daleel:

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
Its good that you cant believe it because that means that you still have the ability for sound reasoning and logic ... even general remorse as well as love for the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
I never claimed that the people of makka are people of heaven. I am only suggesting that they will have a different judgement/judging PROCESS than you and i. Becuase they didnt get a chance to hear about islam like you and i did. And thats why their condition is different and should have a different judging process. Like wise the infant or mentally handy cap person will be judged with a different process than us. Because their conditions were different! Unlike us were we are presented with the true islam, given the ability to comprehend that message and given the ability to accept it or not!

Think of it like this. A robot designer designs 1000 different types of robots. Each with different levels of intelligence, capabilities, tools, specs and what not. The designer decides to make a test for them and see which one will complete the test ... those who fail are considered unworthy of keeping and those who pass will get to stay. The test was done and finished.
Some of these robots had all that it took to pass this test and more but didnt try hard enough or were too arrogant.
Others barely made it.
Others didnt have what it takes to complete one part of the test and resulted in them not being able to continue with the rest of the test and ended up failing
Others were not even informed about the test and never attended it.
Now tell me, is it fair for the design to decommission all those who didnt pass as punishment, even though the designer was the one who made them that way and causes all their mishaps? Ofc not!
That is why these robots should be given another test to see if they will be worthy of keeping or for decommissioning.

Similarly, the humans who didnt get a chance to know about islam correctly will be given a second chance to prove themselves infront of god. I am not suggesting that they will automatically go to heaven! there is a difference between being given a second chance and being given paradise without proof of their worthiness.

Lastly. You are still thinking through a black or white mentality. No brother, even after islam came, some people will still not have heard of islam like the people in North Korea (Even the internet itself is illegal over there) and isolated tribes in africa. Allah will not judge them like he will judge us. He will give them a different trial completely. Again ... i am not suggesting they will go to heaven, i am saying that they will be given another test to assess their imaan. If you think that Allah will not do this then by definition, your version of Allah is an unjust God and i do not believe in that, Because i believe in what Allah said about himself in (Quran 8:51)

... and Allah is not ever unjust to His servants.

As for the Prophets parents, they will must be even a second chance as well ... whether they will pass this test or fail is a completely different story. So im not suggesting that the scholars and hadith is wrong, just that they will be given a second chance at proving themselves to Allah AWJ. Hope things are clear now and you understand what i was trying to say.


:daleel:
Reply

azc
03-08-2018, 05:56 PM
@ChosenTCO :

You're fearlessly delving in this issue without any evidence from Quran and sunnah.

And you are driving an unprecedented ruling in Islam without any evidence from Quran and sunnah; and for the sake of fallacious reasoning, you are assuming that if another chance is not given to them it's more likely be an ''injustice''.
How bold you are to think that Allah swt may be unjust if they are not given another chance..?

(May Allah swt give you hidaya)

What kind of another chance be given to them to prove their iman when all the human beings including them will be experiencing the truth...?

Iman is related to believing in unseen. After seeing the truth iman isn't accepted.

Then what kind of second chance you are demanding for them..?


May Allah swt not ask them for not using their brain and reasoning power to know their creator..?
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-08-2018, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by azc
@ChosenTCO:

You're fearlessly delving in this issue without any evidence from Quran and sunnah.

And you are driving an unprecedented ruling in Islam without any evidence from Quran and sunnah; and for the sake of fallacious reasoning, you are assuming that if another chance is not given to them it's more likely be an ''injustice''.
How bold you are to think that Allah swt may be unjust if they are not given another chance..?

(May Allah swt give you hidaya)

What kind of another chance be given to them to prove their iman when all the human beings including them will be experiencing the truth...?

Iman is related to believing in unseen. After seeing the truth iman isn't accepted.

Then what kind of second chance you are demanding for them..?


May Allah swt not ask them for not using their brain and reasoning power to know their creator..?
You passed a statement to the OP concerning the original question and i did as well.
You misinterpreted what i said and disagreed and i clarified.
You asked for proof and i gave you a few Ayaat + Videos + Link that holds much more proof that i know of (specifically the problem regarding the Prophet's Parents (Peace and blessings be upon them all) ... And if you dont know which link i am referring to, it is this one => http://ahlussunnahwaljamah.blogspot.ae/2008/03/another-lie-of-islamqa.html <= )

Now are you suggesting that this is not good enough of proof for you? or have you not actually opened the link and read through it? If i had to guess, id say that based on your response time to the post that actually contained the link, you didnt open the link ... but im willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume its because you havent seen it or something, so thats why i highlighted it in green above.

And if it is because the link does not open with your ISP, i will copy past the text here and highlight it in dark blue so that you know where it starts and ends.

Lastly ... there are many examples of people who did not follow a specific religion like islam and what not, but though just because they felt fitrah and monotheism they were considered worthy of paradise. Example, Ahl Al Kahf and Asiya. Both had no knowledge of islam because they came prior to it, but they had fitrah of taweed and that was enough to earn them Jannah. In this very day and age, there are people who still never heard of islam and know nothing of it. What your inferring is that even if these people had fitrah but did not follow islam, they will go to hell fire ... and that is what is wrong with your post (i say post because i dont know if that is what you actually believe or was it just the way you said it that makes your post look like you have the wrong idea). ... anyways here is the text of the link i sent ...

The part which was highlighted by me in the wahabi answer was this

Al-Suyooti (may Allaah have mercy on him) was of the view that the parents of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) will be saved (from Hell), and that Allaah brought them back to life after they had died and they believed in him.

Did Imam Suyuti (Rh) used this daleel( evidence) in his answer?

Read here and see it your self


The Prophet's Parents Are Saved (1)


This writing concerns the question of the ruling (hukm) that the father and mother of the Prophet are (believed to be) saved and not in Hellfire. This has been declared by the majority of the scholars, and in reaching that declaration they have several methods (masālik).

Imam Suyuti's Fatwa Concerning The Prophet's Parents Being In Paradise

From His Book Entitled: "Methods Of Those With Pure Belief Concerning The Parents Of The Prophet" (Masalik al-Hunafa' fi walidayy al-Mustafa)


FIRST

His parents died before he was sent as Prophet, and there is no punishment for them as
“We never punish until We send a messenger (and they reject him)” (17:15). Our
Ash`ari Imams of those in kalam, usul, and Shafi`i fiqh agree on the statement that one
who dies while da’wa has not reached him, dies saved. This has been defined by Imam Shafi`i . . . and some of the fuqaha’ have explained that the reason is that that person is on fitra (primordial disposition), and has not stubbornly refused nor rejected any Messenger.

That is the position of our Shaykh, Shaykh al-Islam Sharafuddin al-Munawi, as I received it. He was once asked whether the Prophet’s father was in the fire and he groaned loudly at the questioner. The latter insisted: “Is his Islam established?” and he answered that he
died in fitra and quoted the verse.

It is the position of Ahl al-Sunnah and it was opposed by the Mu`tazila and those who follow them among those who say that one is condemned because Allah is known rationally.

It is also the position of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani who said,
The (proper) conjecture (zann) concerning his parents, meaning also all those who
died before his Messengership, is that they shall obey (his call) at the time of their
examination (in the grave), as a gift (from Allah) to please him.

This method is based on the following sources:


[Evidence from the Qur’an]

• The aforementioned verse. (17:15)

• The verse, “Your Lord does not unjustly (bi zulm) destroy the townships

while their people are unconscious (of the wrong they do)” (6:131). Al-
Zarkashi adduced it to illustrate the rule (qa`ida) that one thanks Allah through
hearing (about Him), not through rational induction. (2)
• The verse, “Otherwise . . . they might say, Our Lord! Why sentest Thou no
messenger unto us, that we might have followed Thy revelations and be
among the believers?” (28:47) Adduced by Zarkashi and Ibn Abi Hatim in their
tafsirs. The latter adds the Hadith, “Those who die in fitra will say, My Lord, no
book nor messenger reached me, and he recited this verse.” (Bukhari and
Muslim)

• The verse, “And if We had destroyed them with some punishment before it
[your coming], they would assuredly have said: Our Lord! If only Thou
hadst sent unto us a messenger, so that we might have followed . . .”
(20:134)

• “And never did thy Lord destroy the townships, till He had raised up in
their mother-town a Messenger reciting unto them Our revelations. And
never did We destroy the townships unless the folks thereof were evildoers”
(28:59). Ibn Abi Hatim quotes Ibn `Abbas’s and Qatada’s explanations
that it refers to the people of Mecca, who were condemned only after the
Prophet was sent to them and they denied him.

• “Lest ye should say, the Scripture was only revealed to two sects before us,
and we in sooth were unaware of what they read” (6:156).

• “And We destroyed no townships but it had its warners for reminder, for
We never were oppressors” (26:208-209). `Abd ibn Hamid, Ibn al-Mundhir,
and Ibn Abi Hatim quote Qatada in their tafsirs to the effect that revelation,
proof, and exhortation must precede condemnation.

• “And they cry for help there, (saying), Our Lord! Release us; we will do
right, not (the wrong) that we used to do. Did not We grant you a life long
enough for him who reflected to reflect therein? And the warner came unto
you” (35:37). The commentators said, “The warner is the Prophet .”


[Evidence from the Hadith]

Hadith Concerning the Examination of the People of fitra [Primordial Disposition] on the Day of
Resurrection and the Entry into Paradise of Those Who Obey and the Entry into the Fire of Those Who Disobey:

Ahmad, Ibn Rahawayh, Ibn Mardawayh, and Bayhaqi (al-I`tiqad `ala madhhab al-salaf ahl alsunnah wa-l-jama`ah) who said, sahih through Aswad ibn Sari’. The Prophet said,
Four will present excuses on the Day of Resurrection: The deaf one, the idiot, the
senile old man, and the one who died in fitra. The first will say, I didn’t hear
anything; the second, Islam came and street-children were throwing dung at me; the
third, Islam came and I did not have my wits about me, and the fourth, my Lord, no
Messenger came to me. Allah will Himself take their covenant to obey Him. They
will be told to enter the fire (as a test). Those who obey will find it cool and safe,
while those who refuse will be dragged to it. (Aswad, Abu Hurayra)

Al-Bazzar and Tirmidhi who correctly graded it hasan: The Prophet said,
The one who died in fitra, the imbecile, and the infant will say respectively: No
Book or Messenger reached me; You gave me no mind wherewith to understand
good or evil; I did not have a chance to do anything. A fire will be presented to
them and they will be told to enter it. Those who would have done well in life will
obey and enter it (temporarily) while those who would have disobeyed in life will
refuse. Allah will tell them, You disobey Me (seeing Me), so how could you obey My
Messengers in My absence? (Abu Sa`id al-Khudri)

Al-Bazzar and Abu Ya’la: same as above with the addition of the senile old man. Those
who obey and enter the fire will go across it speedily. (Anas)

`Abdul Razzaq, Ibn Jarir, Ibn al-Mundhir, Ibn Hatim, with an authentic chain that meets
the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim: The Prophet said,
“The one who died in fitra, the idiot, the deaf, the mute, and the senile will be
sent a messenger (at that time) who will say, Enter the fire. They will argue
and say: How can it be when no messenger reached us? But woe to them! If
they had entered it they would have found it cool and safe. Whoever accepts
and obeys will enter it.” Abu Hurayra added, Read, “We never punish until
We send a messenger” (17:15).”

Al-Bazzar and Hakim, who graded it sahih by the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim: The
Prophet said,
The people of Jahiliyya will come on the Day of Judgment carrying their idols on
their backs. Allah will question them and they will say: Our Lord, You did not send
us a Messenger and nothing from You reached us. If you had sent us one, we would
have been your most obedient servants. Allah will say, Shall I test your obedience?
And He will tell them to enter the fire and stay in it. They will enter it and return
again, in fear of its fury and exhalations, and they will say, Our Lord, protect us
from it. He will say: Didn’t you promise to obey Me if I ordered you something?
They will pledge again and enter it, only to come back and plead again. The Prophet
said, Had they stayed in it the first time, they would have found it cool and safe.
(Thawban)


Tabarani and Abu Nu’aym: The Prophet said,
The imbecile will come on the Day of Judgment together with the one who died in
fitra and the infant etc. (same as (e)) They will keep coming back although the fire
would not have hurt them, and Allah will say, I knew your actions from afore, so
take them (O Fire). (3)

Comment of Tabari,

Know that the Ahl al-Sunnah have one and all agreed on the fact that there is no
knowledge of rulings except on the basis of revealed Law as opposed to the
productions of the mind, while opponents of the truth such as the Rafidah
[Rejecters of the legitimacy of the first three Caliphs], the Karramiyyah
[anthropomorphists], the Mu`tazila [rationalists] and others consider that the
derivation of rulings have different bases, some revealed, some based on pure
reasoning. As for us [Ahl al-Sunnah], we say that nothing is ruled as obligatory before
the coming of a Prophet .

Imam Fakhruddin Razi said in the Mahsul,

To be thankful to the One Creator is not a mind-based obligation, contrary to what
the Mu`tazila say. If it were, those who leave that action before a Prophet is sent
to them would be punished, which is not the case [citing 17:15].
Similarly, those of his school [i.e. kalam] as well as Baydawi and Tajuddin Subki said,
We believe that those whom da`wa did not reach die saved, and that while
alive they are not fought against until they reject a clear call, and that they
enjoy protection in their life and possessions, etc.

Now this method of ruling (exemption from punishment), does it apply to all the people
of the Jahiliyya? No, rather it applies specifically to those who have never been reached by
the call of a previous Prophet . As for those who have been reached and who have
rejected that previous Prophet , no one disputes that they are definitely (ruled to be) in
the fire.

The noble parents (of the Prophet ), from what has been known of them, belong to the
former group according to our belief.

No call reached them, because the previous Prophet came about six hundred years
earlier, and of the rare divines (ahbar) of the People of the Book who still knew the
(original) prophetic dispensations and called people to the religion, a tiny remnant were
left dispersed here and there between Sham and other places.

They apparently travelled little and lived brief lives: eighteen years for `Abdullah who
died in Medina, and nearly the same for the reclusive Amina, according to the hafiz al-
`Ala’i in his book, al-durra al-saniyya fi mawlid sayyid al-bariyya (The pristine pearl: the birth
of the Master of Creatures).

They knew no better than the majority of the people of Mecca, whose ignorance even of
the fact that Allah sends prophets is shown in the verses, “Does Allah send a human
Messenger?” (17:94) and “They said, if our Lord wished, He would have sent
angels; we never heard the like from our forefathers” (23:24).

Imam ‘Izzuddin ibn `Abdul Salam said (in al-Amali),

Every Prophet was sent to his own particular people except ours, which means that
every people not previously sent to, is of the fitra, except the descendants of a
Prophet that are born in other nations [e.g. the descendants of Ibrahim leading to
Shu`ayb], because his Law addresses them as well. But if the previous dispensation
becomes obliterated, then all people become people of the fitra.” This is categorical
proof that the noble parents are without doubt of the fitra, because they are neither
descendants of ‘Isa nor of his nation.

We now turn to further proofs from the Hadith. Ibn Hajar’s statement that the correct conjecture is that the Prophet’s entire family will obey when asked on Judgment Day is inferred from these sources:
The Hadith related by al-Hakim in the Mustadrak from Ibn Mas`ud and graded authentic,
that:
A young man of the Ansar who asked a lot of questions once asked the Prophet ,
“Are your parents in the Fire?” To which the Prophet answered, “My Lord
promised to give me what I ask concerning them, and on that day I shall stand at
the Praiseworthy Station (of chief intercessor).”

The Hadith cited by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari from Ibn `Abbas to the effect that the verse
“And your Lord shall give you so that you will be pleased” (93:5) alludes to the
Prophet’s pleasure that none of his family enter the fire.

The Hadith of Abu Sa`id in Sharaf al-nubuwwa, Tabari (Dhakha’ir al-‘Uqba), and al-Mulla in
his Sira from ‘Umran ibn Husayn:

The Prophet said, “I asked my Lord that He not enter any of my family
into the fire and it was granted me.”

Tamim al-Dari in the Fawa’id with a weak isnad from Ibn `Umar:

The Prophet said, “On the Day of Judgment I shall intercede for my father and
mother, my uncle Abu Talib, and a [milk-]brother of mine from the Jahiliyya.”
Tabari said, If established, then it is understood in the light of the authentic Hadiths
concerning Abu Talib [i.e. that he is in a shallow fire = Bukhari and Muslim]. Tabari
said “concerning Abu Talib” in view of the fact that Islam did reach him unlike the
other three who died in fitra.” (4)





[Lack of Proof That His Parents Were Not of the
Pure Religion (Hanifiyya) and Weakening of the
Hadith Whereby His Father is in the Fire]


SECOND
The shirk (idolatry) of the Prophet’s parents is not an established fact and that they more
probably followed the Pure Religion (Hanifiyya) of their ancestor Ibrahim. A group of
Arabs did that, such as `Amr ibn Nufayl and Waraqa ibn Nawfal and others. This is the
view of Imam Fakhruddin al-Razi and others named below.

Al-Razi states in asrar al-tanzil that some scholars have said that Azar was not Ibrahim’s
father but his uncle because, among other proofs, the parents of prophets are not
unbelievers. Proving the latter, is the verse, “[Your Lord] Who sees you when you
stand, and your turning (taqallubak) among those who prostrate themselves”
(26:218-219), i.e. your descent through the loins of your ancestors, who are called:
worshippers.

He continued: And what proves that the Prophet’s parents were not idolaters is his
saying, “I was carried from the loins of the pure men into the wombs of the pure
women” (lam azal unqal . . .) Therefore it is necessary that none of his ancestors be a
mushrik.

The above is verbatim what Imam Razi said, and I remind you of his status as the Imam
of Ahl al-Sunnah among his contemporaries, the principal upholder of belief against the
various sects of innovators, the one who defended the truth of the Ash`ari creed in his
time, and the Mujaddid (renewer) of this Ummah in the sixth century. (5)

I say also, what further establishes the truth of this method and of what Imam al-Razi
said is, first, the authentic Hadiths to the effect that the Prophet’s origins are the best in
every respect from Adam to his father `Abdullah, and that his century is the best; second,
the Hadiths to the effect that the earth is never empty of the True Monotheists
(muwahhidun) from Adam until Judgment Day, and that it is for their sake that the earth is
preserved otherwise it would have perished long ago. These two points categorically
prove that the best origins and the true monotheists are first and foremost the parents of
the prophets as it ill fits that they should be mushriks while other people be considered of
the fitra. (6)



Another perspective which verifies that method is the verse whereby Allah keeps tawhid -
knowledge of Oneness - within the posterity of Ibrahim. [He cites verses, commentaries,
and Hadiths to that effect.]
Further probative views are that of Imam Abu al-Hasan al-Mawardi in A`lam al-nubuwwa
who said,
The light of prophecy was present in the Prophet’s parents, and the Prophet had
no partner in inheriting it, that is, no brother and no sister, because the quintessence
(safwa) of his parents resides in him, and the greatness of their lineage (nasab) is
derived from him alone, and that is also why they died young.
Further, Ibn al-Jawzi enumerates in al-Talqih the names of nine who refused to worship
idols in the time of the Jahiliyya: Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, Zayd ibn `Amr ibn Nufayl,
`Abdullah ibn Jahsh, `Uthman ibn al-Huwayrith, Waraqa ibn Nawfal, Rabab ibn al-
Barra’, As`ad ibn Kurayb al-Humayri, Qass ibn Sa`ida al-Iyadi, Abu Qays ibn Sarma.

Now for the objections that:
Muslim narrated on the authority of Anas:
A man said, O Messenger of Allah, where is my father?” He said: “In the fire.”
When the man left he called him back and said, “Verily my father and your father
are in the fire.( 7)

Muslim and Abu Dawud narrated on Abu Hurayra’s authority:

That the Prophet asked permission to ask forgiveness for his mother and it was not
granted him [and he asked permission to visit her grave and it was granted].( 8)
I say: Yes (they did narrate it) and the answer is that the narrators do not agree on the
words, “Verily my father and your father are in the fire.” The chain that Muslim used is
that of Hammad ibn Salama - from Thabit - from Anas. It is contradicted by the chain of Mu’ammar - from Thabit - (from Anas), which does not mention those words, but which says, “He called him back and said, “When you pass by the grave of an unbeliever, tell him of the fire.”


There is no mention of the Prophet’s father in the latter version whatsoever, and its chain is more established (athbat) as Mu`ammar is more established than Hammad, whose memory has been questioned and some of whose narrations have been rejected.

Bukhari did not take anything from him, nor did Muslim in the usul (Hadiths related to the principles of the Shari`ah) except through Thabit. Mu’ammar is impeccable from all those points of view and both Bukhari and Muslim use him. His version is therefore more reliable.


The Hadith also comes through another chain in a wording similar to the version of Mu`ammar:
Al-Bazzar, Tabarani, and Bayhaqi cite it on the authority of Ibrahim ibn Sa`d - from al-
Zuhri - from `Amr ibn Sa`d - from his father, that:

A Bedouin Arab said to the Prophet , “Where is my father?” He answered, “In the
fire.” The man said, “And where is yours?” The Prophet replied, “Whenever you
pass by the grave of an unbeliever, tell him about the fire.”

The above chain is authentic according to the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim: reliance
upon it therefore takes precedence over any other (that does not meet such criterion).
Tabarani and Bayhaqi add that the Arab later entered Islam and said, “The Prophet
put a heavy burden on me, because I did not pass by a single grave of an unbeliever
except I told him about the fire.” Ibn Majah cites something similar through Ibrahim ibn
Sa`d - from al-Zuhri - from Salim - from his father.

The above addition shows beyond doubt that the words spoken by the Prophet had a
general meaning, and that the Arab was given an order which he carried out all his life. In
the first narration, however, he was not ordered anything. It is clear that the first narrator
related it in the form he understood (incorrectly).

Al-Hakim in the Mustadrak narrates the following (sahih) on the authority of Luqayt ibn
`Amr, that the latter went in a delegation comprising Nuhayk ibn ‘Asim ibn Malik ibn al-
Muntafiq to Medina to see the Prophet . The latter asked,

Is there any good among those of us who were in Jahiliyya?” He said, “Your father
al-Muntafiq is in the Fire.” Nuhayk said, “I thought an abyss had opened between
the skin of my face and my very flesh when I heard him say that about my father in
front of everyone. I wanted to say, What about yours, O Prophet, but I considered
it more appropriate to say instead, What about your family, O Prophet?” The
Prophet answered, “Whenever you see the grave of an idolater, whether of the
Quraysh or of ‘Amr, say, Muhammad sends me to you to tell you about the fire.”

The preceding is the clearest narration yet of what took place. Now, even if the words,
“My father and your father” are established as authentic, this does not mean ‘Abdullah
but Abu Talib [cf. Bukhari and Muslim’s narrations of the dakhdakh or shallow fire in
which he is placed due to the Prophet’s intercession], similarly to what Imam Razi said
about the Prophet Ibrahim calling his uncle: my father. This is clear from the fact that
Abu Talib commonly called his nephew “My son,” and that is how the Quraysh also
called him when they said, “Tell your son to stop insulting our gods.”

It has also been stated in the Hadith that the most leniently punished of the inmates of
the fire is Abu Talib [Bukhari and Muslim]. If the Prophet’s parents were in the fire,
surely they would be the ones to be punished the most leniently. The scholars of the
principles of jurisprudence (usul) call this an allusive proof (dalalat al-ishara).

As for the second Hadith: that the Prophet was not allowed to pray at his mother’s
grave, (it is authentic; however,) it must be explained correctly, since it is a rule of usul
that whenever irrefutable proofs contradict an authentic Hadith, that Hadith must be
interpreted in a way that clears the contradiction, and the proofs have precedence over it
[i.e. it cannot be interpreted to mean that she is in the fire when it is proven otherwise].
The counter-argument may be made that in the beginning of Islam the Muslim who died
with unpaid debts was not prayed upon (and asking forgiveness for them was not
allowed). [This is still the case in Anatolia, where the janaza does not take place until all
debts are paid on the spot.] The Prophet’s mother may have had this or other reasons
which prevented his praying upon her, which does not make her a kafira.( 9)
[Conclusion]
The majority of the scholars have agreed to the preceding, namely that the Prophet’s
parents are in Paradise, without need for them to consider the two Hadiths of Muslim
abrogated. However, as al-Suhayli has pointed out, it is not appropriate for Muslims to
say such a thing as, “The Prophet’s parents are in the fire,” as he himself said, “Do not
annoy the living by insulting the dead,” and Allah said, “Those who annoy Allah and
the Prophet , Allah curses them in this life and in the hereafter” (33:57).
Al-Qadi Abu Bakr ibn al-`Arabi the Maliki scholar was asked about the man who did say
such a statement, and he replied, “Such a man is cursed.”

Finally, a portion of the scholars have gone to the position of withholding their opinion
on the subject, and Allah knows best.
FOOT NOTES:
(1) Imam al-Suyuti wrote no less than five fatawa on this topic. What is translated here by Shaykh
Gibril has been excerpted from his treatise entitled: “Methods Of Those With Pure Belief
Concerning The Parents Of The Prophet” (Masalik al-Hunafa’ fi walidayy al-Mustafa)


(2)Yusuf `Ali translates bi zulm as “for their wrongdoing” and attributes it to the object (the
people) not the subject (Allah). This produces the following meaning: “Thy Lord would not
destroy for their wrongdoing men’s habitations whilst their occupants were unwarned.” Qurtubi
mentions both meanings in his Tafsir.

(3)The Hadiths of Muslim on the Prophet’s father and mother are addressed later.

(4).Other similar Hadiths follow in descending order of authenticity, but which Suyuti adduces
nonetheless to build up the strength of the evidence that the explicit intercession of the Prophet
for his parents is true.
(5).These words by Suyuti make plain the deviation of “Salafi” charlatans who insinuate that he was not an Ash`ari or that al-Razi does not represent Ahl al-Sunnah or that his Tafsir is not representative of Ahl al-Sunnah! See for example the disparaging mention of al-Razi and of his monumental Tafsir in Mani` al-Qattan’s book published in Riyadh at dar al-sa`udiyya lil-nashr,
entitled: mabahith fi `ulum al-Qur’an (1391/1971).



(6)Suyuti then cites about 44 Hadiths sahih or hasan to illustrate the two points above. ( WAHABIS NOTE : either sahih or hasan and not Mawdu)


(7).Muslim, Iman, chapter 88

(8).Muslim, Jana’iz, chapter 36

(9).As for the Hadith “Your mother is in the Fire.... My mother is with your mother,” it is very weak and,moreover, contains an indication that the Prophet's intercession may serve to bring them out of the Fire: “Whatever I ask my Lord about the two of them [the Prophet's parents], I hope that He will give me. I shall stand, on that day, at the praiseworthy Station.”


This Hadith is narrated from Ibn Mas`ud by Ahmad, al-Tabari in his Tafsir, al-Hakim
(2:365=1990 ed. 2:396), al-Darimi (book of Riqaq), Abu al-Shaykh in al-`Azama, and Ibn al-Mundhir, all with very weak chains because of `Uthman ibn `Umayr who is disclaimed as a narrator (munkar al-hadith) cf. Shaykh Ahmad Shakir in his edition of the Musnad (4:31-32 §3787), al-Haythami (10:361-362), and al-Dhahabi’s rejection of al-Hakim’s grading of authentic.


A Kind Note to Wahabis:
(1).Go and Practice clitoridectomy in female circumcision as advised by your wahabi sheikh Salih al- Munajjid.
(2) He is the same salih al Munajjid who agreed on the authenticity of Imam Dahabi's Letter written to Ibn Taymiah.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-08-2018, 10:02 PM
I will kindly add my cut and paste job.....

Question:
Where are the parents of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)? Are they in Paradise or in Hell? We hope you can tell us of a hadeeth which proves the answer?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

There is a hadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which indicates that they are in Hell.
Muslim (203) narrated from Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that a man said: “O Messenger of Allaah, where is my father?” He said: “In Hell.” When he turned away he called him back and said: “My father and your father are in Hell.”
Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
This shows that whoever dies in a state of kufr will be in Hell. And being related to one who is close to Allaah will not avail him anything. It also shows that whoever died during the fatrah (the interval between the Prophethood of ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) and that of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) and was the follower of the way of the Arabs at that time, which was idol worship, will also be among the people of Hell. There is no excuse for the call not reaching them, because the call of Ibraaheem and other Prophets (peace be upon them) had reached these people.
Muslim (976) narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I asked my Lord for permission to pray for forgiveness for my mother, but He did not give me permission. And I asked Him for permission to visit her grave, and He gave me permission.”
It says in ‘Awn al-Ma’bood:
“But He did not give me permission” means: because she was a kaafirah (disbeliever) and it is not permissible to pray for forgiveness for the kuffaar.
Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
This shows that it is not permitted to pray for forgiveness for the kuffaar.
Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “My father and your father are in Hell,” he spoke with knowledge, for he did not speak on the basis of his whims and desires, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“By the star when it goes down (or vanishes).
2. Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
3. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
4. It is only a Revelation revealed”
[al-Najm 53:1-4]
Were it not that proof has been established against ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib, the father of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would not have said what he did about him. Perhaps he had heard something that established proof against him on the basis of the religion of Ibraaheem, because they used to follow the religion of Ibraaheem until the innovations were introduced by ‘Amr ibn Luhayy al-Khuzaa’i and his innovations became widespread among the people, such as the propagation of idols and praying to them instead of to Allaah. Perhaps ‘Abd-Allaah had heard something that showed him that the idol worship of Quraysh was wrong, but he still followed them, and thus proof was established against him. Similarly, the hadeeth which says that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) asked for permission to pray for forgiveness for his mother but it was not granted, and he asked for permission to visit her grave and he was permitted to do so but not to pray for forgiveness for her, perhaps she had heard something that established proof against her, or perhaps the people of the Jaahiliyyah are to be treated as kuffaar as far as rulings in this world are concerned, so we should not pray for them or pray for forgiveness for them, because outwardly they seem to be kuffaar, and should be regarded and dealt with as such, and their case in the Hereafter is for Allaah to judge.
Fataawa Noor ‘ala al-Darb

Al-Suyooti (may Allaah have mercy on him) was of the view that the parents of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) will be saved (from Hell), and that Allaah brought them back to life after they had died and they believed in him.
This view was rejected by the majority of scholars who ruled that the ahaadeeth which indicate that are fabricated (mawdoo’) or very weak (da’eef jiddan).
It says in ‘Awn al-Ma’bood:
Most of the reports that been narrated to the effect that the parents of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) were brought back to life and believed in him and were saved are fabricated and false. Some of them are very weak and cannot be saheeh under any circumstances, as the imams of hadeeth are unanimously agreed that they are fabricated, such as al-Daaraqutni, al-Jawzaqaani, Ibn Shaheen, al-Khateeb, Ibn ‘Asaakir, Ibn Naasir, Ibn al-Jawzi, al-Suhayli, al-Qurtubi, al-Muhibb, al-Tabari, Fath al-Deen ibn Sayyid al-Naas, Ibraaheem al-Halabi and others. The scholar Ibraaheem al-Halabi explained at length the fact that the parents of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have not been saved from Hell in a separate essay, as did ‘Ali al-Qaari in Sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar and in a separate essay. The basis for this opinion is the soundness of this hadeeth (“My father and your father are in Hell”). Shaykh Jalaal al-Deen al-Suyooti differed from the huffaaz and scholars and affirmed that they had believed and had been saved, and he wrote numerous essays on that topic, including al-Ta’zeem wa’l-Minnah fi anna Abaway Rasool-Illaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) fi’l-Jannah.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: Is there any saheeh report from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that Allaah brought his parents back to life so that they could become Muslims, then they died (again) after that?
He replied: There is no saheeh report to that effect from the scholars of hadeeth. Rather the scholars are agreed that this is an invented lie… There is no dispute among the scholars that this is one of the most obvious of fabrications, as was stated by those who have knowledge. That does not appear in any of the reliable books of hadeeth, either in the Saheehs or the Sunans or the Musnads or any other well-known books of hadeeth. It was not mentioned by the authors of the books of Maghaazi or Tafseer, even though they narrated da’eef (weak) reports along with saheeh (sound) ones. The fact that this is a lie is clear to any one who has any knowledge of religion. If such a thing had happened there would have been a great deal of motivation to transmit it, because it is something that is extraordinary on two counts: the raising of the dead and believing after death. Such a thing would have been more deserving of being transmitted than anything else. Since no trustworthy narrated transmitted it, it may be understood that this is a lie.
Moreover, this goes against the Qur’aan and the saheeh Sunnah, and the consensus of the scholars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Allaah accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon afterwards; it is they whom Allaah will forgive and Allaah is Ever All‑Knower, All‑Wise.
18. And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: ‘Now I repent;’ nor of those who die while they are disbelievers”
[al-Nisa’ 4:17-18]
So Allaah states that there is no repentance for one who dies as a disbeliever. And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Then their Faith (in Islamic Monotheism) could not avail them when they saw Our punishment. (Like) this has been the way of Allaah in dealing with His slaves. And there the disbelievers lost utterly (when Our Torment covered them)”
[Ghaafir 40:85]
So He tells us that the way in which He deals with His slaves is that faith will be to no avail once they have seen the punishment, so how about after death? And there are other similar texts. Then he quoted the two hadeeth which we quoted at the beginning of our answer.
Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 4/325-327.
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-08-2018, 11:00 PM
I dont mean to offend anybody from this post but i will say it anyways because i think its extremely important for people to direct their attention towards this problem.
I see a lot of you taking meanings and texts of scholars at surface value without actually processing and pondering upon why these scholars said such a thing. You quickly take the meaning your mind understood at face value regardless of whether your interpretation or legitimacy of understanding is correct or not. And this is very dangerous because once you transmit this knowledge it will consist of an inaccurate or morphed meaning ... and even worse, the person who would reserve it would further misunderstand and amplify the effect along the way. So imagine how morphed up some of your understandings about basic values and knowledge of islam is right now after generations up generations of this effect taking place along the way.

I am honestly stunned at how some of you are so afraid and unwilling to use their deductive reasoning to process and assess the words and messages of some great scholars that we know of today. I mean honestly stunned! Firstly, its not that we should use it to criticize the scholars themselves, it is actually to criticize our understanding of how we perceive their knowledge and information that they pass on. So its not meant for them its actually meant for us to better understand them in the first place. Saying that we shouldnt use our critical thinking in things like this is hella dangerous because when you stop questioning your understanding you stop questioning your sense of right and wrong, your morals, your senses and even your basic humanity which is probably the most important thing in the human after his imaan.

Simply think of it like this ... A soldier that does not question some of his leader's seemingly absurd commands is an immoral and a bad one (no different from a mercenary, paid to kill ... zero humanity). While a good soldier who actually question some of his leaders absurd commands will either learn more from them and elevate his status or lose his title as a soldier ... but at least he will always hold true to his countries safety and service. Like wise a muslim who questions some of the commands that are passed down to him though laymen who misunderstood the actual scholars of islam is in a much better and safer state than that who blindly follows without question thinking that the information he is getting must be 100% and without a doubt untainted or misrepresent in anyway when these things and mishaps happen all the time. And that exactly is the reason why some of you probably were unable to understand and comprehend what i said in my previous posts ... Its because you never practiced challenging yourself and your face value understanding of texts and information. Yet when it comes to others, we easily brush off the arguments by saying you havent pondered enough about the Quran or this or the other ...

Secondly, this fear of critical thinking inhibits a lot of us to reach a level of knowledge where we can actually make ijihad instead of acting like parrots making takleed 24/7 and never thinking for ourselves. Thats why islam is consistently getting more and more difficult because we are allowing the west to design everything for us and we just implement their systems into our countries without coming up with anything ourselves that would suit the rules and regulations of our religion. instead, we sit around complaining about why the salaf are a thousand times better than us when we are doing everything that doesnt matter that they did and leaving the only thing that matter which they did which is ijtihad. Because apparently some scholars are afraid of making ijitad so everyone else becomes afraid of it.

There are soooo many bad things that have come up in this world because of thinkings like this (again i mean no offense to those who think that way but just look around with an open mind and you will see) yet we turn a cold shoulder and insist that everything is ok and that the ways of the salaf is the way that should be follow when we are in a time and age that is almost unrecognizable to that of the time of salaf ... its a way of thinking that just screems disaster ...

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
There is no excuse for the call not reaching them, because the call of Ibraaheem and other Prophets (peace be upon them) had reached these people.
You lost me there ... So he knows that ALLLL the people who existed at that time have heard of the call of Ibraaheem (AAS)? How? does he share in Allah's power of knowledge or somekind?
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-08-2018, 11:37 PM
You and I are not capable of making itjihad. You question well established Sunnah's in previous posts. You don't know the Seerah properly when I had to correct you in a previous post about it. Yet you think you have the knowledge to go ahead and make itjihad on an issue based on your whims and desires. This isn't how Islam works. That is how the kuffar systems of religion and political ideologies work. You want Islam to be like that. Too bad. It isn't going to happen. This deen has 1400 plus years of established scholars that has handed down to us. We just have to hear and obey. I don't need to question why men can't wear gold and silk or listen to music. You want Islam to conform to you and how the kuffar live.
Reply

Zafran
03-09-2018, 12:01 AM
salaam

Its odd how we have an entire thread of people trying to chuck people in Hell. The bottom line is Only Allah swt decides where people will end up - our Job is to be moral exemplars and not have some sort of superiority complex.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-09-2018, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

Its odd how we have an entire thread of people trying to chuck people in Hell. The bottom line is Only Allah swt decides where people will end up - our Job is to be moral exemplars and not have some sort of superiority complex.
On the contrary, the Quran is replete telling us that the believers are superior than the disbelievers. Allah also tells us in the Quran who is going to end up where. Maybe you should get your head out of Ghazali's Ihya and Hamza Yusef videos and read the Book of Allah.

Nevertheless, I love your signature....
Reply

Zafran
03-09-2018, 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
On the contrary, the Quran is replete telling us that the believers are superior than the disbelievers. Allah also tells us in the Quran who is going to end up where. Maybe you should get your head out of Ghazali's Ihya and Hamza Yusef videos and read the Book of Allah.

Nevertheless, I love your signature....
Got to love the Arrogance. Did God tell you exactly who is going to be in heaven and Hell? Only a few names are mentioned other then that we are all in the Dark. I've seen plenty of people Born Muslims and Converts come to this religion and then leave after few years. So dont be so sure who the believers are and who the disbelievers are. Life has many surprises.
Reply

Zzz_
03-09-2018, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
Just before i start, I just want to say that i deeply respect your opinion, but i assure you that it is incorrect (specifically your definitions of a believer and disbeliever). I am an arab and an arabic speaker myself. So its safe to say i have a very decent understanding of the language in general. And when it comes to specifics, i can easily research on a matter and conclude whether a word means that which the research claims or not.

1) "Logically and by definition it stands to reason anyone who doesn't believe is by default a non-believer." This is a logical fallacy in of itself (blackorwhite fallacy)

Jazakallahu khair brother. Inshallah we all can discuss in an islamic manner here while respecting everyone's opinions. Where deen and deen matters are concerned, there is no room for our opinions. But where there is room for sharing our opinions and understanding then there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not an arabic native so naturally you would have a better understanding of the language. But the logic and concept I put forth applies to any language. I was going by simplest terms and logic and in simple logic 101, if not A then B. You are saying black/white fallacy knowing there are other colors too. But it's more like on/off logic. Either the lights are on or off, not something in between.

Unless you have another word for them, one i have never come across in the Quran, sunnah or from scholars.

2) "Muslim=(believer)" ... That is incorrect. A muslim is a person who submits to Allah & his message but doesnt necessarily believes in it. A mu'men on the other hand IS a believer. PROOF=> (Quran 49:14)

The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

The words which bedouins used is "amanaa" (we believed) and Allah (AWJ) said "You have not become mu'menoon (believers) instead you have become muslimoon (submitters )"

By azc's claim and many on this thread, if a person is not a believer (aka mu'men) he is a disbeliever, (and according to the verse above, even if he says the kalima, he is still not yet a believer.) ... he is worthy of going to hell fire. What im saying is that this is wrong. This also negates your other statement about shahada. "A believer can be a believer by shahadah only and has no other knowledge or a momin."
This is getting into the technicality of it. Yes, obviously there's a difference between a believer and a submitter. But by a broader definition and going by english definition, Naturally, a believer is someone who believes/accepts something and a disbeliever would be someone who does not accept or believe the same thing. For example, the earth is flat. Either you believe that to be true and are a believer in that or believe it to be false and not a believer of that statement. There is no in between.

Regardless of what others say, one who states the shahadah is a believer and this is a confirmed sunnah. And that is level 1, the starting point. And then through our taqwa and ebadah we reach higher to ishan level. So we are all believers but each one at a different level of belief and eman.
3) "kuffar=(disbeliever)" The second point and my previous posts here have already refuted this but i will further explain as needed. The origin of a state of kuffr is a state of acknowledgement. Kuffr linguistically means to cover or to veil, so basically that which you are committing an act of kuffr uppon has to exist (or be acknowledge in the case of intangible things such as belief) in order for an act of kuffr to be committed on it. So when you tell me that people who passed away prior to islam are kuffar then i say this doesnt even make sense. Its just like saying a bull is either milked or unmilked ... BUT ITS A BULL. get what im trying to say?
I'm aware that the kaafir is the one who denies and conceals the truth. The basic meaning of the word kufr in Arabic is concealment. I agree with you on that.


however,like i said before. There are levels to each of them. I use the word kuffar loosely to mean anyone who is not a Muslim by default is kuffar. Now a kuffar can be a full blown kuffar by the definition of kufr, or a kuffar by loosely applied definition in that either you a Muslim or you are not. There is no in between. This isn't to say all kuffars will go to hell. This is only to differentiate in that either one accepts Islam and proclaims the shahadah and thereby is a Muslim or one is not and if they are not a Muslim then what are they? what word is used in Islam for that person?


@azc in response to your link ... here is another link that refutes it.
http://ahlussunnahwaljamah.blogspot....f-islamqa.html
I went to this blog and saw what this was about. The blog is by some unknown individual. There is no picture of the person, name given of the owner and no introduction of who is or what are his credentials. So for someone to attack Islamqa and accuse of it of lies while they are basically an anonymous on-line holds very little weight. I wouldn't trust that information, part of taking any information from anyone in Islam is to verify the credibility of a person first.
Reply

azc
03-09-2018, 02:41 AM
@ChosenTCO :

See my post #75. Your questions have been answered in it. No need to regurgate the same issue.

Now see this one from the link you gave:

Al-Bazzar and Hakim, who graded it sahih by the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim: The
Prophet said,
The people of Jahiliyya will come on the Day of Judgment carrying their idols on
their backs. Allah will question them and they will say: Our Lord, You did not send
us a Messenger and nothing from You reached us. If you had sent us one, we would
have been your most obedient servants. Allah will say, Shall I test your obedience?
And He will tell them to enter the fire and stay in it. They will enter it and return
again, in fear of its fury and exhalations, and they will say, Our Lord, protect us
from it. He will say: Didn’t you promise to obey Me if I ordered you something?
They will pledge again and enter it, only to come back and plead again. The Prophet
said, Had they stayed in it the first time, they would have found it cool and safe.
(Thawban)
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-09-2018, 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
You and I are not capable of making itjihad. You question well established Sunnah's in previous posts. You don't know the Seerah properly when I had to correct you in a previous post about it. Yet you think you have the knowledge to go ahead and make itjihad on an issue based on your whims and desires. This isn't how Islam works. That is how the kuffar systems of religion and political ideologies work. You want Islam to be like that. Too bad. It isn't going to happen. This deen has 1400 plus years of established scholars that has handed down to us. We just have to hear and obey. I don't need to question why men can't wear gold and silk or listen to music. You want Islam to conform to you and how the kuffar live.
"We are in capable of making ijtihad". Thats whats bothering me. If i ask why, the most probable answer i will get is because we dont have enough knowledge to do so. And i agree with that, but why dont we have enough knowledge? Its because of people like you having the same mentality as you! I have seen multiple times were someone would genuinely ask a question about why something is so and so in islam and you would just bash them for asking the simplest of questions. You accuse them of being a troll, a non-muslim, and a person who is trying to intentionally cause fitna between other muslims on this forum. This is the mentality of a weak and insecure muslim who probably doesnt know why he believes in something but is just too afraid to question himself.

I think we all know the difference between the Prophets intentions and the devil's intention. The Prophet intended to save the people from hellfire and encourage then to become muslim and the devils tried to do vice versa. Lets have a look at what you tried to do and inferred about the OP in your posts (#24,26,28). You asked him to remove his religion status as a muslim to something else, just like the devils would like. Not only that, what you did there can also be considered as takfeer. And since your so much more knowledgeable than me in islam, im guessing you would know how haram it is to do such a thing without full proof of this individual truly being a kaffir.

Are you referring to that one time were i wrote 1000 instead of 10,000. or about that time were you neglected to consider some of the most remarkable and highlighted signs of mercy of the prophet in the seerah? And you called them kicks and giggles, choosing to neglect them and only focus on that one time where Allah informed the Prophet that he was too merciful toward mushrikuun captives during the early stages of islam? No brother thank you, im not going to take lessons about islam from a person who doesnt even have basic comprehensive skills to understand a simple question from a simple layman ... Even a simple question about why music is haram automatically makes the questioner want to legalize it and gold and silk in your eyes? Wow brother ... just wow.
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-09-2018, 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by Zzz_
Jazakallahu khair brother. Inshallah we all can discuss in an islamic manner here while respecting everyone's opinions. Where deen and deen matters are concerned, there is no room for our opinions. But where there is room for sharing our opinions and understanding then there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not an arabic native so naturally you would have a better understanding of the language. But the logic and concept I put forth applies to any language. I was going by simplest terms and logic and in simple logic 101, if not A then B. You are saying black/white fallacy knowing there are other colors too. But it's more like on/off logic. Either the lights are on or off, not something in between.

Unless you have another word for them, one i have never come across in the Quran, sunnah or from scholars.
I get what you are trying to say now. Your example about on and off really made it clear :D
I really never have though of it but off of the top of my head, there is Muwahidoon (monotheists) and Ahl al Fitrah (the people of fitrah) ... 2 examples that describle people who are not necessarily muslim, but follow the same primary principle of islam which is tawheed (monotheism).


Originally Posted by Zzz_
This is getting into the technicality of it. Yes, obviously there's a difference between a believer and a submitter. But by a broader definition and going by english definition, Naturally, a believer is someone who believes/accepts something and a disbeliever would be someone who does not accept or believe the same thing. For example, the earth is flat. Either you believe that to be true and are a believer in that or believe it to be false and not a believer of that statement. There is no in between.

Regardless of what others say, one who states the shahadah is a believer and this is a confirmed sunnah. And that is level 1, the starting point. And then through our taqwa and ebadah we reach higher to ishan level. So we are all believers but each one at a different level of belief and eman.
Again, this goes back to your on and off example. i understand where your coming from now, but i still think its much better if you used a word like non-believer instead of disbeliever. Because disbeliever suggests that the person was presented with the idea and chose to not believer in it, were as a non-believe encompasses a much larger circle where a person could not believe in something, not just because there rejected it, but it may be that they never have heard of the idea in the first place.

Originally Posted by Zzz_
I'm aware that the kaafir is the one who denies and conceals the truth. The basic meaning of the word kufr in Arabic is concealment. I agree with you on that.


however,like i said before. There are levels to each of them. I use the word kuffar loosely to mean anyone who is not a Muslim by default is kuffar. Now a kuffar can be a full blown kuffar by the definition of kufr, or a kuffar by loosely applied definition in that either you a Muslim or you are not. There is no in between. This isn't to say all kuffars will go to hell. This is only to differentiate in that either one accepts Islam and proclaims the shahadah and thereby is a Muslim or one is not and if they are not a Muslim then what are they? what word is used in Islam for that person?
If you are saying that you would used it only to differentiate between a muslim and a nonmuslim then thats KINDA okish given that people know that your using it that way. But the original meaning or use of this word is to describe the people who have actually heard the true message of islam and were convinced that it is the truth yet chose to disbelieve in it out of arrogance. My problem is when someone uses that term without explaining what he think its means or uses it for, then inscribes it to all people who are non-muslims regardless of whether these people will go to heaven or hell.

For example, by your very definition: A retarded or mentally handicap person who says he does not believe in islam is considered a kafir. In islam, we know that the mentally handicap person is will exempted from punishment because he does not have the means to carry the message of Allah. Yet in reality we all know that the word kafir only refers to those who are worthy of hellfire. I believe this is what is causing the confusion. this is why we should not call ALL non believers to be kuffar, instead we should just call them non-believers ... and if you are asking what is the word of a non believer in arabic then i would have to say, based on my knowledge of the language that there is non. Only terms that describe disbelievers(kuffar), atheist(mulhidoon), polytheists(mushrikoon) and so on.


Originally Posted by Zzz_
I went to this blog and saw what this was about. The blog is by some unknown individual. There is no picture of the person, name given of the owner and no introduction of who is or what are his credentials. So for someone to attack Islamqa and accuse of it of lies while they are basically an anonymous on-line holds very little weight. I wouldn't trust that information, part of taking any information from anyone in Islam is to verify the credibility of a person first.
I guess you could regard it as an untrust worthy islamic sight but what about all the proof and evidences shown on that site? shouldnt we consider them if we are to look for the truth?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by azc
@ChosenTCO:

See my post #75. Your questions have been answered in it. No need to regurgate the same issue.

Now see this one from the link you gave:

Al-Bazzar and Hakim, who graded it sahih by the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim: The
Prophet said,
The people of Jahiliyya will come on the Day of Judgment carrying their idols on
their backs. Allah will question them and they will say: Our Lord, You did not send
us a Messenger and nothing from You reached us. If you had sent us one, we would
have been your most obedient servants. Allah will say, Shall I test your obedience?
And He will tell them to enter the fire and stay in it. They will enter it and return
again, in fear of its fury and exhalations, and they will say, Our Lord, protect us
from it. He will say: Didn’t you promise to obey Me if I ordered you something?
They will pledge again and enter it, only to come back and plead again. The Prophet
said, Had they stayed in it the first time, they would have found it cool and safe.
(Thawban)
EXACTLY! ... that is the second chance that i was referring to. Another test to assess their obedience. Another chance! ... Thats why i said what i said early with confidence. I trust that Allah AWJ is just and merciful. He would never give an unfair trial to someone and assess them based on it. He would never because He (AWJ) himself said that He would do no injustice towards his creation (Quran 8:51) [Allah is not ever unjust to His servants]. And it doesnt take a sherlock to know if such is a fair trial or not.;):thumbs_up I hope this managed to clear our differences a bit and puts us on the same page.

Salam brother.
Reply

azc
03-09-2018, 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
I get what you are trying to say now. Your example about on and off really made it clear :D
I really never have though of it but off of the top of my head, there is Muwahidoon (monotheists) and Ahl al Fitrah (the people of fitrah) ... 2 examples that describle people who are not necessarily muslim, but follow the same primary principle of islam which is tawheed (monotheism).




Again, this goes back to your on and off example. i understand where your coming from now, but i still think its much better if you used a word like non-believer instead of disbeliever. Because disbeliever suggests that the person was presented with the idea and chose to not believer in it, were as a non-believe encompasses a much larger circle where a person could not believe in something, not just because there rejected it, but it may be that they never have heard of the idea in the first place.



If you are saying that you would used it only to differentiate between a muslim and a nonmuslim then thats KINDA okish given that people know that your using it that way. But the original meaning or use of this word is to describe the people who have actually heard the true message of islam and were convinced that it is the truth yet chose to disbelieve in it out of arrogance. My problem is when someone uses that term without explaining what he think its means or uses it for, then inscribes it to all people who are non-muslims regardless of whether these people will go to heaven or hell.

For example, by your very definition: A retarded or mentally handicap person who says he does not believe in islam is considered a kafir. In islam, we know that the mentally handicap person is will exempted from punishment because he does not have the means to carry the message of Allah. Yet in reality we all know that the word kafir only refers to those who are worthy of hellfire. I believe this is what is causing the confusion. this is why we should not call ALL non believers to be kuffar, instead we should just call them non-believers ... and if you are asking what is the word of a non believer in arabic then i would have to say, based on my knowledge of the language that there is non. Only terms that describe disbelievers(kuffar), atheist(mulhidoon), polytheists(mushrikoon) and so on.




I guess you could regard it as an untrust worthy islamic sight but what about all the proof and evidences shown on that site? shouldnt we consider them if we are to look for the truth?

- - - Updated - - -



EXACTLY! ... that is the second chance that i was referring to. Another test to assess their obedience. Another chance! ... Thats why i said what i said early with confidence. I trust that Allah AWJ is just and merciful. He would never give an unfair trial to someone and assess them based on it. He would never because He (AWJ) himself said that He would do no injustice towards his creation (Quran 8:51) [Allah is not ever unjust to His servants]. And it doesnt take a sherlock to know if such is a fair trial or not.;):thumbs_up I hope this managed to clear our differences a bit and puts us on the same page.

Salam brother.
:wa:

And Allah knows what is in our hearts
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-09-2018, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
"We are in capable of making ijtihad". Thats whats bothering me. If i ask why, the most probable answer i will get is because we dont have enough knowledge to do so. And i agree with that, but why dont we have enough knowledge? Its because of people like you having the same mentality as you! I have seen multiple times were someone would genuinely ask a question about why something is so and so in islam and you would just bash them for asking the simplest of questions. You accuse them of being a troll, a non-muslim, and a person who is trying to intentionally cause fitna between other muslims on this forum. This is the mentality of a weak and insecure muslim who probably doesnt know why he believes in something but is just too afraid to question himself.

I think we all know the difference between the Prophets intentions and the devil's intention. The Prophet intended to save the people from hellfire and encourage then to become muslim and the devils tried to do vice versa. Lets have a look at what you tried to do and inferred about the OP in your posts (#24,26,28). You asked him to remove his religion status as a muslim to something else, just like the devils would like. Not only that, what you did there can also be considered as takfeer. And since your so much more knowledgeable than me in islam, im guessing you would know how haram it is to do such a thing without full proof of this individual truly being a kaffir.

Are you referring to that one time were i wrote 1000 instead of 10,000. or about that time were you neglected to consider some of the most remarkable and highlighted signs of mercy of the prophet in the seerah? And you called them kicks and giggles, choosing to neglect them and only focus on that one time where Allah informed the Prophet that he was too merciful toward mushrikuun captives during the early stages of islam? No brother thank you, im not going to take lessons about islam from a person who doesnt even have basic comprehensive skills to understand a simple question from a simple layman ... Even a simple question about why music is haram automatically makes the questioner want to legalize it and gold and silk in your eyes? Wow brother ... just wow.
Get over yourself. Your opinions mean nothing to the religion of Islam. The only mentally weak and insecure person is you. I have certainty in the laws of the Shariah. You don't. That OP came on here with the first post as a member to spew nonsense and fitnah. He was a troublemaker. And when I told him to change his religion status he complied willingly. That doesn't help his case that he is a Muslim. So he is either a troll or an apostate from before he even signed up to this forum. And Allah Knows Best.
Reply

azc
03-09-2018, 06:37 PM
My brothers in Islam,

peace........!
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-09-2018, 07:51 PM
Please please please can we all just calm down. Its becoming impossible to have a civil conversation/debate. We dont know whats going on with the OP atm . We should be supporting the OP, not further driving him away from Islam with our unkindness.
Reply

Zzz_
03-09-2018, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
I get what you are trying to say now. Your example about on and off really made it clear :D

My problem is when someone uses that term without explaining what he think its means or uses it for, then inscribes it to all people who are non-muslims regardless of whether these people will go to heaven or hell.


we should not call ALL non believers to be kuffar, instead we should just call them non-believers ... and if you are asking what is the word of a non believer in arabic then i would have to say, based on my knowledge of the language that there is non. Only terms that describe disbelievers(kuffar), atheist(mulhidoon), polytheists(mushrikoon) and so on.
Glad we're on the same page bro. I try not to get into semantics though, Quran doesn't play around with technicalities. Those who are Muslims, it calls them that, and those who are not, it calls them kuffar/fasiqoon/mushrik/etc. So I keep it simple to those terms. Either you are a Muslim or you are not a Muslim, which by English definition would mean either you have a believer of a given faith or you are disbeliever of that faith. If saying non-believer rather then disbeliever makes you happy then go with that. I'm just talking in general sense. All the exceptions to that is clear as well when it comes to children, elderly, insane and those who did not receive the message of Islam.


I guess you could regard it as an untrust worthy islamic sight but what about all the proof and evidences shown on that site? shouldnt we consider them if we are to look for the truth?

we could consider them, but let's say we do then we go and consider them again from the source till we start relying on it as being reliable source and when they slip misinformation in there to misguide, we accept that too. Look at such sources from un-confirmable individuals should be left to the students of knowledge, not your average online reader. we follow Islam and per Islam we verify the credential of the person first before we take our deen from them.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-09-2018, 11:32 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the OP?
Reply

lost_one
03-13-2018, 06:46 AM
My dear brothers. I got occupied by my thoughts on this issue as well as other things due to which I couldn't reply. I thought that my last comment stating that I understood what you all said would end this thread but it didnt. It turned into a debate.

First: I request the mods to please DON'T remove this thread as I will go through it again and again. This will be way back when I get doubts again.

Second: thank you all for all of your replies. I know I promised each one who answered an individual thanks but....too many replies so I hope you all will forgive me if I'm unable to do so but I'm deeply thankful to all non the less. Allah knows.

Third: I was never my intention to cause fitnah or make other people have doubts. Never.

Fourth: it might have looked like I was going to leave Islam or something. If I leave Islam then go where? Christianity Judaism? Nope. Atheism? He'll no! My situation is best described as 'stuck'. Can't leave islam cause of the prophet (saw) but this thorn in my head is preventing me from diving whole heartedly into Islam. I'm going no where. And the spiritual schism is having all sorts of negative effects on me.

Fifth: Just try to understand this. Believing something, just because, is DANGEROUS! Thats why we have so many religions instead of one. If you dig deep and hard you'll eventually find the truth. But you must first dig.
Just look at the phenomenon of suicide bombing. These poor people were either coerced into this abominable act or they were brainwashed into it. If they were taught to question and use critical thinking they would NEVER agree to slaughteting innocents! We would never have this problem of terrorism! I know that 99% of it is due to a worldwide conspiracy against Islam so the elite can profit off peoples ignorance and sell more and more senseless war. But still. Part of it is also due to people's lack of questioning.
Following a commanders orders to murder unarmed women and children is dead wrong yet look at history. Genocides upon genocides carried out due to lack of thinking and reasoning and questioning.

Sixth: I am very very illiterate when it comes to matters regard Islamic knowledge. Hence I started this topic. I explained what happens if I go to a mosque. I did however have the pleasure of having an Islamic studies teacher when I was young, who told me that the only reason we are here in this world is so that we can give Allah (swt) one pathetic and small excuse which he can use to send us to paradise. And that's the image of Allah I have in my mind. A loving diety who's love is uncomprehensible and mercy boundless.

Last: I stopped praying cause I felt that praying which such doubts about Islam in my heart would make it void and worthless. I would always ask for guidance in my prayers but since I thought of myself as a non believer I didn't think and still tosto some extent thjnk that my prayers will not be considered in his grace cause of these doubts.
If you know of any duas or wazaif specially for people like me who want guidance please lemme know.

Salaam and regards.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-13-2018, 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
My dear brothers. I got occupied by my thoughts on this issue as well as other things due to which I couldn't reply. I thought that my last comment stating that I understood what you all said would end this thread but it didnt. It turned into a debate.

First: I request the mods to please DON'T remove this thread as I will go through it again and again. This will be way back when I get doubts again.

Second: thank you all for all of your replies. I know I promised each one who answered an individual thanks but....too many replies so I hope you all will forgive me if I'm unable to do so but I'm deeply thankful to all non the less. Allah knows.

Third: I was never my intention to cause fitnah or make other people have doubts. Never.

Fourth: it might have looked like I was going to leave Islam or something. If I leave Islam then go where? Christianity Judaism? Nope. Atheism? He'll no! My situation is best described as 'stuck'. Can't leave islam cause of the prophet (saw) but this thorn in my head is preventing me from diving whole heartedly into Islam. I'm going no where. And the spiritual schism is having all sorts of negative effects on me.

Fifth: Just try to understand this. Believing something, just because, is DANGEROUS! Thats why we have so many religions instead of one. If you dig deep and hard you'll eventually find the truth. But you must first dig.
Just look at the phenomenon of suicide bombing. These poor people were either coerced into this abominable act or they were brainwashed into it. If they were taught to question and use critical thinking they would NEVER agree to slaughteting innocents! We would never have this problem of terrorism! I know that 99% of it is due to a worldwide conspiracy against Islam so the elite can profit off peoples ignorance and sell more and more senseless war. But still. Part of it is also due to people's lack of questioning.
Following a commanders orders to murder unarmed women and children is dead wrong yet look at history. Genocides upon genocides carried out due to lack of thinking and reasoning and questioning.

Sixth: I am very very illiterate when it comes to matters regard Islamic knowledge. Hence I started this topic. I explained what happens if I go to a mosque. I did however have the pleasure of having an Islamic studies teacher when I was young, who told me that the only reason we are here in this world is so that we can give Allah (swt) one pathetic and small excuse which he can use to send us to paradise. And that's the image of Allah I have in my mind. A loving diety who's love is uncomprehensible and mercy boundless.

Last: I stopped praying cause I felt that praying which such doubts about Islam in my heart would make it void and worthless. I would always ask for guidance in my prayers but since I thought of myself as a non believer I didn't think and still tosto some extent thjnk that my prayers will not be considered in his grace cause of these doubts.
If you know of any duas or wazaif specially for people like me who want guidance please lemme know.

Salaam and regards.
I agree with you that blindly believing is wrong. I had a lot of doubts about Islam about 3 yrs back as well but i never really indulged them. As for prayer, you cannot let guilt or doubts etc stop you brother, Allah is merciful, he understands! He knows how bad you feel and this may well be a part of a bigger plan for you. Faith through logic and finding it yourself is a lot more powerful than just following a religion cos your family do( in my humble opinion). During prayer tell God your doubts, tell him look this is freaking me out etc and i really need guidance( maybe not word for word but you get me). you need to find a path to "pull you back"in to Islam. Its different for different people. For me it was the Quran and Hadith. I wish you all the best inshallah
Reply

lost_one
03-13-2018, 08:38 AM
Thank you. I know now that from this mess only Allah swt can help me. I mean reading the post above, one can clearly see that there is a clear cut division of opinion. Two seperate schools of thought.
I don't advocate taking religion purely based on reason as reason alone is deficient and will never fully satisfy a person. A leap of faith is a leap of faith for a reason.
However being totally blind and deaf and following without question something is how tyranny and injustice takes place. That's how extremism is born.

Most importantly I have learned that I definitely need to learn Quran and devote myself to understanding it. No scholar or fatwa is above it.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-13-2018, 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you. I know now that from this mess only Allah swt can help me. I mean reading the post above, one can clearly see that there is a clear cut division of opinion. Two seperate schools of thought.
I don't advocate taking religion purely based on reason as reason alone is deficient and will never fully satisfy a person. A leap of faith is a leap of faith for a reason.
However being totally blind and deaf and following without question something is how tyranny and injustice takes place. That's how extremism is born.

Most importantly I have learned that I definitely need to learn Quran and devote myself to understanding it. No scholar or fatwa is above it.
Whatever you do, please start praying the obligatory prayers. The difference between faith and disbelief is the prayer. May Allah Azza wa Jal guide you back to the Straight Way. Ameen.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-13-2018, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you. I know now that from this mess only Allah swt can help me. I mean reading the post above, one can clearly see that there is a clear cut division of opinion. Two seperate schools of thought.
I don't advocate taking religion purely based on reason as reason alone is deficient and will never fully satisfy a person. A leap of faith is a leap of faith for a reason.
However being totally blind and deaf and following without question something is how tyranny and injustice takes place. That's how extremism is born.

Most importantly I have learned that I definitely need to learn Quran and devote myself to understanding it. No scholar or fatwa is above it.
Definitely! 100% i spent a long time looking at this scholar and that and this opinion and that, but i learnt that you need to understand Islam in your own terms. Yes there are some things that are clear cut,( eg prayer x5 a day) and some not( there's a whole argument about whether using a tasbih is halal or bidah) you just need to pick your battles at the end of the day. Keep your intentions pure and try your hardest and all will go well inshallah!
Reply

azc
03-13-2018, 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Thank you. I know now that from this mess only Allah swt can help me. I mean reading the post above, one can clearly see that there is a clear cut division of opinion. Two seperate schools of thought.
I don't advocate taking religion purely based on reason as reason alone is deficient and will never fully satisfy a person. A leap of faith is a leap of faith for a reason.
However being totally blind and deaf and following without question something is how tyranny and injustice takes place. That's how extremism is born.

Most importantly I have learned that I definitely need to learn Quran and devote myself to understanding it. No scholar or fatwa is above it.
:sl:

brother, you are advised to stay away from books, articles, lectures, video of atheists until you complete your study and have more sterling faith
Reply

Zzz_
03-13-2018, 11:15 PM
Our Lord! (they say), Let not our hearts deviate now after Thou hast guided us, but grant us mercy from Thine own Presence; for Thou art the Grantor of bounties without measure
[3:8]
Rabbana la tuzigh quloobana ba'da idh hadaytana wa hab lana milladunka rahmah innaka antal Wahhab
رَبَّنَا لاَ تُزِغْ قُلُوبَنَا بَعْدَ إِذْ هَدَيْتَنَا وَهَبْ لَنَا مِن لَّدُنكَ رَحْمَةً إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ
[8: آل عمران]

Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith
[2:286]
Rabbana wala tuhammilna ma la taqata lana bihi wa'fu anna waghfir lana wairhamna anta mawlana fansurna 'alal-qawmil kafireen
رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تُحَمِّلْنَا مَا لاَ طَاقَةَ لَنَا بِهِ وَاعْفُ عَنَّا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَا أَنتَ مَوْلاَنَا فَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ
[البقرة :286]


Our Lord! Send us not to the company of the wrong-doers
[7:47]
Rabbana la taj'alna ma'al qawwmi-dhalimeen
رَبَّنَا لاَ تَجْعَلْنَا مَعَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ
[الأعراف :47]



Reply

fschmidt
03-14-2018, 05:36 AM
lost_one, I would like to give a non-muslim answer, and probably a very unpopular answer, but I think it is relevant to you. I have read about 2/3 of the Quran in English and I haven't found anything wrong with it. On the other hand, most people are horribly confused and always have been. This means that the mainstream interpretation of any religion will always be wrong, and Islam is no exception. Don't reject the Quran just because Muslims don't understand it.

Now I will get specific. Consider these 2 statements: "Those who eat rotten food get sick." and "All those who eat rotten food get sick." Are these statements the same? No, they are not. The first statement is true because it is a general statement and exceptions don't invalidate it. The second statement is false because there are exceptions. Yet today's Muslims read such statements like the first in the Quran as meaning "all". Why? Because people are fundamentally intolerant and they read their intolerance into the Quran. But it isn't in the Quran itself. The Quran actually makes a careful distinction between universal statements ("all" and "no one") and general statements. When the Quran makes a general statement like that those who don't believe in the hereafter are condemned, I agree that this is GENERALLY true even though I don't believe in the hereafter. There are exceptions. (I don't reject the hereafter, I just have no belief about it, I have no idea whether or not it is true.) In fact I challenge you to find a single statement in the Quran that I, as a non-Muslim, would consider to be false, using the actually meaning of the text rather than the Muslim interpretation.

Obviously as a non-Muslim, I have my reasons for not following the Quran. But your reasoning doesn't seem right to me, and this is the point that I want to make here. Most jews, christians, and atheists are condemned because they are immoral, and the reason that they are immoral is that their beliefs don't give good enough guidance. But there are exceptions, which is why the Quran makes these kinds of statements as general statements, never as universal statements.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-14-2018, 09:53 AM
Jews and Christians are misguided period. All of them today that did not accept the last Messenger, Muhammad s.a.a.w. Allah says:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (3:85)

There are no exceptions unless you live in the Amazon rain forest and the message of Islam didn't reach you but that is not the case with modern day People of the Book.

And now you as a kaffir come in here and try to use your whims and desires to interpret the Quran.

And worst of all, you actually have two naiive Muslim women agreeing with you.
Reply

czgibson
03-14-2018, 10:42 AM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
I am honestly stunned at how some of you are so afraid and unwilling to use their deductive reasoning to process and assess the words and messages of some great scholars that we know of today. I mean honestly stunned!
You must be new here.

And that exactly is the reason why some of you probably were unable to understand and comprehend what i said in my previous posts ... Its because you never practiced challenging yourself and your face value understanding of texts and information. Yet when it comes to others, we easily brush off the arguments by saying you havent pondered enough about the Quran or this or the other ...
Good point.

Secondly, this fear of critical thinking inhibits a lot of us to reach a level of knowledge where we can actually make ijihad instead of acting like parrots making takleed 24/7 and never thinking for ourselves. Thats why islam is consistently getting more and more difficult because we are allowing the west to design everything for us and we just implement their systems into our countries without coming up with anything ourselves that would suit the rules and regulations of our religion.
It's great that somebody noticed.

Peace
Reply

lost_one
03-14-2018, 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by azc
:sl:

brother, you are advised to stay away from books, articles, lectures, video of atheists until you complete your study and have more sterling faith
Haha. Too late. Been there. Done that. Didn't like it so Came back

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Just last Friday when at the juma prayer, the imam was giving the sermon, he said something that's still resonating with me.
He said: near the end times Allah will take away this religion from us. How ? By taking away those who have knowledge of it.

And that's what I believe is happening here in this world. I mean I'm lost for a reason and on judgement day when ill be questioned about my doubts I'll point this thread out.
Honestly the only definitive thing I can do now for my peace of mind is wake up in the middle of the night and pray for guidance.
Reply

Mahir Adnan
03-14-2018, 01:18 PM
why somebody expect to enter jannah, while he claims that ALLAH doesn't own a jannah.and ALLAH isn't the owner of jannah.
if you believe Allah is bad,Allah will deal with you badly. But if you think He is kind, He will be kind to you.
So, people with so many good deeds who believe ALLAH doesn't own a jannah will not enter jannah,as if Allah truly doesn't own a jannah.
Reply

azc
03-14-2018, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Haha. Too late. Been there. Done that. Didn't like it so Came back

- - - Updated - - -

Just last Friday when at the juma prayer, the imam was giving the sermon, he said something that's still resonating with me.
He said: near the end times Allah will take away this religion from us. How ? By taking away those who have knowledge of it.

And that's what I believe is happening here in this world. I mean I'm lost for a reason and on judgement day when ill be questioned about my doubts I'll point this thread out.
Honestly the only definitive thing I can do now for my peace of mind is wake up in the middle of the night and pray for guidance.
May Allah swt keep us steadfast on deen. Ameen
Reply

ChosenTCO
03-14-2018, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Haha. Too late. Been there. Done that. Didn't like it so Came back

- - - Updated - - -

Just last Friday when at the juma prayer, the imam was giving the sermon, he said something that's still resonating with me.
He said: near the end times Allah will take away this religion from us. How ? By taking away those who have knowledge of it.

And that's what I believe is happening here in this world. I mean I'm lost for a reason and on judgement day when ill be questioned about my doubts I'll point this thread out.
Honestly the only definitive thing I can do now for my peace of mind is wake up in the middle of the night and pray for guidance.
Brother, dont be too hard on yourself. It is said that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him said:

“Religion is easy, and no one overburdens himself in his religion but he will be unable to continue in that way. So do not be extremists, but try to be near perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded. Gain strength by worshipping in the mornings and afternoons and during the last hours of the night.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (39) and Muslim (2816).

“There will come an era when a person patiently practicing his religion will be like holding on to hot coals.”[At-Tirmithi 2260]

The first hadith i mentioned is just to show you that you shouldn't let yourself down if you feel like your not good enough or will never be as good as the sahaaba or these weird expectations some people expect of us. Guess what? Your not suppose to, nor will you even if you tried, because if u could, you would be with them already. But doesnt mean your inherently bad like some people would have you believe. Doesnt make you evil, just makes you a person like any other person living in this era and generation. A fugged up time filled with trials and tribulations that one can just not escape. The second hadith just proves it!

So basically, dont hold yourself up to what you have accomplished, instead hold up yourself to what effort you have put in. I notices what you said about praying during times of doubt ... I know because i have experienced it before and by the grace of Allah its no longer there (the doubts). Dont think like that brother. Your thinking that if u tried but nothing came and nothing happened (ur iman didnt improve) then whats the point? Thing is, its not Allah who is suppose to show you that he is there and what not, its you who is suppose to show him that your worthy of his mercy because you would never give up on him! And you should trust in him ... Allah states in The Quran (2:286)

[Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."]

So dont think that when your being tested that means somehow Allah means to hurt you or misguide you because Allah also said in His Book (2:143) " ...And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful."
Nor should you think that Allah has forsaken you or anything like that. (50:16) [And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein]
Also (2:186) [And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.]

I really hope that these verses help you like they helped me during times of great doubt in my previous years ... You have no idea how much i benefited from these trials and others that we much harder. Gave me a whole new perspective on life ... May Allah guide you and guide us Allah to his path! Ameen! :love:
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-14-2018, 03:26 PM
THadith

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ:

لَمَّا قَضَى اللَّهُ الْخَلْقَ، كَتَبَ فِي كِتَابِهِ عَلَى نَفْسِهِ، فَهُوَ مَوْضُوعٌ عِنْدَهُ: إِنَّ رَحْمَتِي تَغْلِبُ غَضَبِي"

رواه مسلم (وكذلك البخاري والنسائي وابن ماجه)

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.

It was related by Muslim (also by al-Bukhari, an-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah).

Sahih
Reply

fschmidt
03-15-2018, 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Jews and Christians are misguided period. All of them today that did not accept the last Messenger, Muhammad s.a.a.w. Allah says:

"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." (3:85)

There are no exceptions unless you live in the Amazon rain forest and the message of Islam didn't reach you but that is not the case with modern day People of the Book.

And now you as a kaffir come in here and try to use your whims and desires to interpret the Quran.

And worst of all, you actually have two naiive Muslim women agreeing with you.
This was discussed here:

https://www.islamicboard.com/-ilm-kn...ml#post2984770

I will respond in that thread.
Reply

CalmPassenger
03-15-2018, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad
When i was a kid. I also think Why my teacher will fail some of my class fellows? Then i realize those who failed. They actually deserve to be failed. Inshort When you will grow and learn... You will start to understand things. The concept of Allah is all about love, The purest form of Love. So research why some people will go to hell? Why is that? This is how we start our journey as a passenger. So Read, research, think, Ask why,when,what,where... Good wishes and enjoy this wonderful life. God show you the right path.
Reply

Umme salma
03-16-2018, 12:28 AM
Allaah speaks off Jew's,Christians,Sumerians and those who do good work...Allaah says they will not grieve... will share the ayat tomorrow ...always check the Quran ..as it has the criteria..and it's good to question openly to gain clarity needed...and remember that Allaah is bringing many towards truth....sometimes it can be an error our perception, so don't define God by that ...I'm a huge believer in observing as often Allaah clarifies our misunderstanding...please do open up up and share what other questions that are creating doubt...and maybe we can use hikma from the Quran to help put them to rest for you...but please do have patience, and understanding from context helps the angle of truth....you are not alone in this battle in times when confusion the biggest tool used...
Reply

Mahir Adnan
03-20-2018, 04:11 PM
, I have come up with an explanation.suppose,you receive your salary from "MICROSOFT ". but, in reality, you are just planning to elevate "APPLE" Company. what would "microsoft do,if they come to know that you are cheating them?
they would bring you before court.the court may fine you or put you in jail for several years.
now think,Allah is feeding you,giving you rijik.and you are planning to destroy this Deen.you are helping other religion, satan & idol to defeat Islam. but,it's Allah who have kept you alive. you don't even give thanks to Him.what would Allah do to you in His court?
He has the right to put you in jail too
Reply

Peacefully
03-20-2018, 04:24 PM
apostacy is a great sin
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-20-2018, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Umme salma
Allaah speaks off Jew's,Christians,Sumerians and those who do good work...Allaah says they will not grieve... will share the ayat tomorrow ...always check the Quran ..as it has the criteria..and it's good to question openly to gain clarity needed...and remember that Allaah is bringing many towards truth....sometimes it can be an error our perception, so don't define God by that ...I'm a huge believer in observing as often Allaah clarifies our misunderstanding...please do open up up and share what other questions that are creating doubt...and maybe we can use hikma from the Quran to help put them to rest for you...but please do have patience, and understanding from context helps the angle of truth....you are not alone in this battle in times when confusion the biggest tool used...
Who are the sumerians?
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-20-2018, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Who are the sumerians?
I think she meant the Samaritans.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-20-2018, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
I think she meant the Samaritans.
Ahh right
Reply

azc
03-20-2018, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Who are the sumerians?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Sumerians.html

Who were the Sumerians?
Who were the Sumerians? Where was Sumeria? What was the origin of the Sumerians? Are the Sumerians mentioned in the Bible?...
Reply

Umme salma
03-20-2018, 09:10 PM
[QUOTE=lost_one;2985919]And that's exactly what's wrong. Doesn't anyone think that something is wrong with this? So many genuinely good people go to hell where as a Muslim who JUST HAPPENED to be born in a Muslim household goes to heaven?
You get to go to heaven since you're born in a Muslim family and not because you made the world a better place? And vice versa Others don't?
And it was God's decision to put you in a Muslim household. How is this fa

Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Quran 7:159)

Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. (Quran 2:62)

correction the sabians, sorry was reading up about the sumerians a day before.. firstly we need to understand who the unbelievers are, as there are ayats which also say that if people truth has not reached people, and they are ignorant of it.. they cant be held responsible for not knowing.. because we dont read other verses where it shows from context, the expansion also of Gods words.. we restrict HIs truth.. because we read just a verse or few about the same thing, but dont ponder on other verses that give a more wide explanation and understanding, that helps to round or balance our thinking... that align our understanding of justice...


"We never punish until we raise a messenger Surah al-Isra` 17:15

we firstly have to understand who the disbelievers are... people who reject truth knowingly, most dont know.. and even as muslims we are getting distorted truths.. so brother please do not get frustrated because someone has given one ayats .. translations have been known to be mistranslated.. so do your own research.. ponder on other ayats where God has said to the muslims to surrendered in war, let them reside for a while so they may here a some of the truth, then release them release them so they may ponder as the are people 'who dont know' ... God is merciful.. It will be HIm who judges, but the ayats of doom are not for mere faults... if we ponder on such verses

“And We let the children of Isrā‘īl cross the sea. So, Pharaoh and his troops chased them in transgression and hostility, until when he was about to drown, he said, I believe that there is no god but the One in whom the children of Isrā‘īl believe, and I am among those who submit to Allah. (Allah said,) is it now (that you have come to believe) while you were rebellious all along, and you were among the mischief-makers? So, today, We shall save your body, so that you may become a sign for those after you. And many of the people are heedless of Our signs.” (Yunus) here if we observe, that pharoh knew all along that God did exist and only when he was about to drown with his pride dare to acknowledge.. and Allaah knew that he was an rejector of truth and rebelling against truth ... while we are searching truth, please be free in seeking Divine truth.. dont let anyone bully you to otherwise... observe,observe and observe Allaah signs, man sadly does complicate and restrict the Divine tuth due to bad interpretations and distorations, no one should think the Quran cant be touched, it may not have been in its origin, but noone said it cant be in its interpretation of it, do we think iblys would not have thought about this.. ? .... irrelevant if anyone tries to put you off, dont be from the people who will complain that you followed so and so whilst the ones in authority were also in error, take charge of your journey, because on that you alone will be accountable for it.. God is giving us time to seek truth, the evidences that we are given in life, is the manifestation pointing us are on the right path, as our intentions are directed towards that sincerity, as life isnt guranteed, create your intention.. about your faith and the ahkhira.. Question openly but also seek openly, dont box yourself in as we have because God gives us permission to seek truth and take from the best speech the truth given.... keep your mind open to truth..and vision will expand.... this method that we have right now, is way wrong.. how else do non muslims come to islam, but by giving themselves the openness to seek substance in truth.. dont blame God for mans misrepresention... and never limit Gods justice or HIs mercy, that is HIs domain..as Allaah knows the internal structure of each person.. we have very poor trust on God, have poor trust on man, because it is he that creates what God further difficulty in the religion that brings harmony with reasoning, comtemplation, meditation, reflection, questioning to clarify, and please observe.. because He truly will respond if we learn to observe.... we are doing very wrong and pushing people away, from a religion that brings expansion and balance in ones heart..




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sorry, lool correction.. i was reading up about the sumerian civilisation hence was in a rush, hadnt realised what i wrote.. *sabians ..
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-20-2018, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
I think she meant the Samaritans.

Correction: Sabians
Reply

Nashita
06-08-2018, 07:41 AM
Originally Posted by lost_one
Hi all. I am or was a Muslim but slowly and slowly feel like losing my faith. Why? How come Allah will send some people to heaven just cause of kalimah but a Jew or a Christian or atheist who spent their entire life in suffering to help others will go to hell?
Doesn't make senseimsad
Hii !

You're sort of losing your faith because you don't find it convincing! I have been through this and trust me it's really a tough time when no answer can convince you . You're definitely someone who is logical and rational and doesn't want to be a Muslim just because he is a born Muslim.

This book has changed my life and I'm sure it will change yours too . It will clear most of your doubts . And it's okay to doubt and question, that's how you make your faith more strong.

https://islamhouse.com/en/books/345803/ Give it a read!


And coming to your question, I have the same question and I see you've replied mentioning that none of the answers are convincing. And I totally agree with you that hell fire is a very harsh punishment for someone who's kind but died a non-Muslim. We just know things and people the way we see or observe but Allah knows beyond everything and anything. He is the best and ultimate decision-maker. We can be unaware but Allah can never be, He is aware of everything . So all you need to have is faith and trust on Him. The book that I have shared will help you in bringing out this faith.
And one thing, no Muslim can ever be a good Muslim without being a good human. You can never enter Jannah if you have an evil heart even though you've been religious throughout.

Alot of questions will arise, I am sure one by one you'll get answers. And some answers will amaze you. I believe that both of us lack knowledge and we have to do alot of research and read great books, there are answers to your each and every question. Even I had many questions, most of my questions have been answered and I am sure that I'll find the answers for the rest as well.
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