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innocent
03-27-2018, 10:08 PM
If someone says the sentence containing the words " Not even Allah can change that". Have they committed kufr?
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Misbah-Abd
03-27-2018, 10:57 PM
That is major kufr. That person has to be explained why that is and for them to repent from that.
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azc
03-28-2018, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by innocent
If someone says the sentence containing the words " Not even Allah can change that". Have they committed kufr?
Immediately, he must do tawba.
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cinnamonrolls1
03-28-2018, 03:29 PM
Well yes. God can change anything. The person would need to repent
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innocent
03-28-2018, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Well yes. God can change anything. The person would need to repent
How exactly would he do this. Just make astaghfar or kaffarah or what? He doesn't pray.
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cinnamonrolls1
03-28-2018, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by innocent
How exactly would he do this. Just make astaghfar or kaffarah or what? He doesn't pray.
Well he should probably start praying.
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Misbah-Abd
03-28-2018, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by innocent
How exactly would he do this. Just make astaghfar or kaffarah or what? He doesn't pray.
Abandoning prayer is itself kufr. He needs to rectify that right away.
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cinnamonrolls1
03-28-2018, 04:45 PM
Tell him to start praying, like now.
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innocent
03-28-2018, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Tell him to start praying, like now.
He is well aware of the obligation if prayer. But chooses not to.
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cinnamonrolls1
03-28-2018, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by innocent
He is well aware of the obligation if prayer. But chooses not to.
Well its his loss at the end of the day. So he feels bad about verbal kufr but not bad abt not praying...?
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Misbah-Abd
03-28-2018, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by innocent
He is well aware of the obligation if prayer. But chooses not to.
Iblis was well aware of his obligation to bow down to Adam but he chose not to. How did that work out for him?
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Grandad
03-28-2018, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by innocent
If someone says the sentence containing the words " Not even Allah can change that". Have they committed kufr?
As-Salāmu ‘alaykum, sister.

It seems to me that this depends on two things: The nature of the statement (and perhaps the context in which it is made); and the motive - or condition - of the person making it.

If I were to say, for example, ‘The Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) through the Archangel Jibrīl (ʿalayhi as-salām), and not even Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) can change that fact’, then in order for my statement to be kufr it would:

Have to be false; either in total, or in part; and

I would have to know that it is false; or that it contains a falsehood; and

I would then have to hide that knowledge by pretending that the statement is entirely true (in order to deceive another, for example).

On the other hand:

If the statement is entirely true, then it cannot be kufr; or

If I sincerely believe (wrongly) that the statement is entirely true, and my intention is to convey my belief to another, then while I may be in error (and in need of correction from a more experienced, or learned Muslim) I am not a kafir; a non-believer.

For the record: I believe that the statement: ‘The Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) through the Archangel Jibrīl (ʿalayhi as-salām), and not even Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) can change that fact' is entirely true.

I stand to be corrected, of course. :embarrass
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Misbah-Abd
03-28-2018, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Grandad
As-Salāmu ‘alaykum, sister.

It seems to me that this depends on two things: The nature of the statement (and perhaps the context in which it is made); and the motive - or condition - of the person making it.

If I were to say, for example, ‘The Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) through the Archangel Jibrīl (ʿalayhi as-salām), and not even Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) can change that’, then in order for my statement to be kufr it would:

Have to be false; either in total, or in part; and

I would have to know that it is false; or that it contains a falsehood; and

I would then have to hide that knowledge by pretending that the statement is entirely true (in order to deceive another, for example).

On the other hand:

If the statement is entirely true, then it cannot be kufr; or

If I sincerely believe (wrongly) that the statement is entirely true, and my intention is to convey my belief to another, then while I may be in error (and in need of correction from a more experienced, or learned Muslim) I am not a kafir; a non-believer.

For the record: I believe that the statement: ‘The Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) through the Archangel Jibrīl (ʿalayhi as-salām), and not even Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) can change that’ is entirely true.

I stand to be corrected, of course. :embarrass
Your example doesn't hold water. There was abrogation in the Quran when it was sent down through Jibreel to the Prophet and then some verses were taken back out. So Allah does change what He wants. This is well known among the scholars.

https://islamqa.info/en/105746

And Allah Knows Best
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Grandad
03-28-2018, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Your example doesn't hold water. There was abrogation in the Quran when it was sent down through Jibreel to the Prophet and then some verses were taken back out. So Allah does change what He wants. This is well known among the scholars.

https://islamqa.info/en/105746

And Allah Knows Best
I was not referring to abrogation. I was referring to the fact that the Qur'an was sent down via Jibrīl (ʿalayhi as-salām).

This is the fact that cannot be changed.

Perhaps I should write more carefully!

With this in mind, the statement now reads:

The Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) through the Archangel Jibrīl (ʿalayhi as-salām), and not even Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) can change that fact'.
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Misbah-Abd
03-28-2018, 07:03 PM
I don't know. Would any heedful Muslim be comfortable even saying such a statement, "Not even Allah can change that fact" with the example that you have given. I don't feel comfortable about it.
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AabiruSabeel
03-28-2018, 07:08 PM
@Grandad , be careful with saying such statements. Allah :swt: spoke directly with Musa :as: and He :swt: does not need anyone to send the revelation. I know you are speaking of an event that occurred in the past, but we still have to be careful with such statements.
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Grandad
03-28-2018, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
@Grandad , be careful with saying such statements. Allah :swt: spoke directly with Musa :as: and He :swt: does not need anyone to send the revelation. I know you are speaking of an event that occurred in the past, but we still have to be careful with such statements.
As-Salāmu ‘alaykum, brother.

Absolutely, and I have no argument with that. Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not depend on anyone, and needs no partners.


My understanding, though, is that the Qur'an was revealed, in whole or in part, through Jibrīl (ʿalayhi as-salām). If my understanding is defective, then please put me on the correct path.


If it is a fact that the Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) through the Archangel Jibrīl (ʿalayhi as-salām), then how can this fact become a fiction?

If it is a fact that the Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) alone, then how can this fact become a fiction?
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AabiruSabeel
03-28-2018, 07:54 PM
:wa:

Of course, it is a fact. But when you say that Allah cannot change that fact, I have to disagree because, if Allah :swt: willed, He could have sent the revelation through any other angel or by directly speaking to the Prophet :saws:. Allah :swt: has the power to change a fact into another different fact. I hope you get what I mean.
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Grandad
03-28-2018, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
I don't know. Would any heedful Muslim be comfortable even saying such a statement, "Not even Allah can change that fact" with the example that you have given. I don't feel comfortable about it.
Just some thoughts:

If it is true that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is Eternal, then how can He wish Himself out of existence?

If it is true that He is Immutable, then how can He become a man (as certain Christians would have us believe)?

If it is true that He is Omnipotent, then how can He be weak?

If He is All-Knowing, then how can He be ignorant?

If He can wish Himself out of existence, then He is not eternal.

If He can become a man, then He is not immutable.

If He can become weak, then He is not omnipotent.

If He can become ignorant, then He is not All-Knowing.

It is my absolute conviction that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is Eternal; is Immutable; is Omnipotent; is All-Knowing. All of these things (and more) are integral to His very nature; that which make Him unlike anything else. In what way can He act against His nature?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
:wa:

Of course, it is a fact. But when you say that Allah cannot change that fact, I have to disagree because, if Allah :swt: willed, He could have sent the revelation through any other angel or by directly speaking to the Prophet :saws:. Allah :swt: has the power to change a fact into another different fact. I hope you get what I mean.

I think I get what you mean (and thank you for taking the time).

I agree, Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) can choose anyway He wishes in order to reveal His truths, His message. But...when it came to the Qur'an He chose one particular way. That is the fact I refer to, and nothing else. It is what it is. It could easily have been done in a different way, but it wasn't.

Some would have us believe that the Qur'an is a fabrication from beginning to end; a lie; a con; the work of Satan (you must have heard this drivel over the years). Muslims believe (you and I believe) that the Qur'an came from, and only from, Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla). Tell me, can it be any other way? Could He make it any other way?

I believe it is not possible for Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) to do this; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because believing so is a nonsense. And nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about the Exalted.

I must go now. Please may I talk with you again, in šāʾ Allāh.

May Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) bless you and all your family, and bring you to Himself.

By the way...I am NOT suggesting that you are talking nonsense!
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