Understanding the Reformation

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Theres much talk about 'reformation' and how Islam 'needs' a reformation. Heres two books that will give you an unusual perspectives about what the reformation was about and its impact on world history.

Be careful what you wish for.

A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland

Blurb

Written between 1824 and 1827 by an English Protestant, A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland has been reprinted many times by Catholic publishers because it gives the true and usually untold story of the Protestant Revolt in England during the 16th century, revealing its disastrous consequence in the lives of people.

William Cobbett, the author of this book, is unabashedly pro-Catholic in this writing, showing that England was far better off before the Protestant 'Reformation' of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I than she was afterwards. For example, during Catholic times there was greater prosperity, no penury, no poor laws, almost no crime, no income tax, and a greater national military strength. Whereas, with the 'Reformation' came the destruction of the monasteries, the driving of countless thousands of tenant farmers from the lands they had formerly rented (virtually in perpetuity and at cheap rents) from Catholic monasteries, the creation of a vast number of homeless poor, the subsequent poor laws, income tax, a diminished military capacity, and despotism on the part of the monarchs - all this, followed by the Puritan Revolt, the dictatorship of Oliver Cromwell, the 'Glorious Revolution' in 1688 (that brought William and Mary to power and overthrew the legitimate king because he was a Catholic), an increase of taxation, the rise of national debt, and finally the American revolution.

The author shows how these dire results flowed directly from Englands casting flowed directly from Englands casting of the ancient Catholic Faith, brought to the Island by St Augustine of Canterbury in the 6th century and adhered to faithfully by the great majority of Englishmen for a thousand years. Cobbett shows how the revolutionaries were not only successful in eradicating the True Faith from their land, but he spells out the woeful consequences that befell the country as a result.

Picking up, as he does, the history of England with the reign of Henry VIII (1509-1547), he carries through the reigns of the Protestant Edward VI (1547-1553), the Catholic Mary Tudor (1553-15558), the Protestant Elizabeth I (1558-1603), the Protestant James I (1603-1625), the Protestant Charles I (1625-1649), the Puritan Oliver Cromwell (1653-1658), the tacit Catholic Charles II (1660-1685), the Catholic James II (1685-1688), and the Protestants William and Mary (1689-1702), all the way to George III (1760-1820)

In the process, the author not only relates many fascinating and important facts, he also gives an enlightening running commentary on the meaning and significance of the events of this period of history. For example, he describes and explains the cuel and tragic imprisonment and execution under Elizabeth I of the Catholic Mary Queen of Scots, Elizabeth cousin - who was the rightful heir to the English throne, rather than Elizabeth. He tells of the famous Gunpowder Plot (1604-05) and what provoked it, the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (1572) in France and what provoked that. And he finishes by giving a detailed financial comparison between the relative income of the people before and after the reformation in England.

The Stripping of the Altars: Traditional Religion in England,1400-1580

Blurb

This profoundly influential book re-examines events leading up to the Reformation in England and illuminates our understanding of the period. A prize-winning account, it recreates lay people's experience of the religion of the pre-Reformation church showing that late-medieval Catholicism was neither decadent nor decayed, but was a strong and vigorous tradition, and that the Reformation represented a violent rupture from a popular and theologically respectable religious system. For this edition, Duffy has written a substantial new introduction, including a discussion of the Lollards and reflecting on recent developments in Reformation studies. 'A mighty and momentous book ...which reorders one's thinking about much of England's religious past.' Jack Scarisbrick, The Tablet 'Duffy wants to show the vitality and appeal of late medieval Catholicism and to prove that it exerted a diverse and vigorous hold over the imagination and loyalty of the people up to the very moment of the Reformation. He succeeds triumphantly.'Susan Bridgen, London Review of Books 'A magnificent scholarly achievement, a compelling read, and not a page too long.' Patricia Morrison, Financial Times 'A landmark book in the history of the Reformation.' Ann Eljenholm Nichols, Sixteenth Century Journal 'This book will afford enjoyment and enlightenment to layman and specialist alike. Duffy sweeps the reader along ...by his lively and absorbing detail, his piercing insights, patient analysis, and his vigour in debates.' Peter Heath, Times Literary Supplement 'Sensitively written and beautifully produced, this book represents a major contribution to the Reformation debate.' Norman Tanner, The Times 'Deeply imaginative, movingly written, and splendidly illustrated.' Maurice Keen, The New York Review of Books

The Unintended Reformation: How a Religious Revolution Secularized Society

Blurb

In a work that is as much about the present as the past, Brad Gregory identifies the unintended consequences of the Protestant Reformation and traces the way it shaped the modern condition over the course of the following five centuries.

A hyperpluralism of religious and secular beliefs, an absence of any substantive common good, the triumph of capitalism and its driver, consumerism--all these, Gregory argues, were long-term effects of a movement that marked the end of more than a millennium during which Christianity provided a framework for shared intellectual, social, and moral life in the West. Before the Protestant Reformation, Western Christianity was an institutionalized worldview laden with expectations of security for earthly societies and hopes of eternal salvation for individuals.

The Reformation's protagonists sought to advance the realization of this vision, not disrupt it. But a complex web of rejections, retention's, and transformations of medieval Christianity gradually replaced the religious fabric that bound societies together in the West. Today, what we are left with are fragments: intellectual disagreements that splinter into ever finer fractals of specialized discourse; a notion that modern science--as the source of all truth--necessarily undermines religious belief; a pervasive resort to a therapeutic vision of religion; a set of smuggled moral values with which we try to fertilize a sterile liberalism; and the institutionalized assumption that only secular universities can pursue knowledge.

The Unintended Reformation asks what propelled the West into this trajectory of pluralism and polarization, and finds answers deep in our medieval Christian past.

[Zafran]

the reformation was a disaster for christian Europe - the violence and death and the split was so severe that Christendom would never recover - this would ultimately lead to the enlightenment and secularizing of society - the reason why Catholics couldn't solve the problem with the Protestants was because Christendom had a hard time of tolerating any other religion or culture. - unlike the Indians, Chinese, the mid east and Africa lets not forget the Romans.

There is also the rigid structure of Catholicism.

[BurningHeart]

That's the thing!

But if we dig in a bit more, the main target is to alter the Quran somehow (ilyazubillah min zalik). It is perplexing for the people who are observing Islam from outside. Sadly, it brings rage instead a moment of reflection. And for some, it is such an intense desire to go on whatever means to achieve this. The level is up to the point that any person with muslim name can become an instant celebrity by declaring that 'Quran needs to be updated' or 'Shariah needs to be rethought.'

But they do not realise, Muslims do not do in Rome as the Romans do, because they will have Islam no more. They rise above above their surroundings by submitting to the Word of Allah rabul 'izza and invite the whole world to the same. Those who accept it do it for their own good; those who reject do it at their own peril.

So why there is no 'reform' movement in Islam just like Christianity or Judaism? Because the latter lost their scriptures, Islam did not. Words of men replaced the words of God in their scriptures making the whole thing fallible. One can find hundreds of statements in the Bible that can be tested and found untrue. Or statements that contradicts each other. There is not a single such instance in the Quran, and there will never be.

Islam was never deformed that it should need reformation. It is not dated that it should need to be updated. Its message is true today as it was yesterday. All of its commands are as life giving today as they were yesterday, and they will be tomorrow. It remains as the eternal beacon of light as humanity jumps from one extreme to the other in its ignorance.

Right and wrong are eternal. Definitions of good and evil have to be constant. Otherwise, they will lose all meaning. In a world shifting standards of good, there is no good. It is a blessing for humanity that Islam provides that constant.

If the entire world agrees that homos... is ok, Islam will still call it a great abomination. If the entire world agrees to destroy the institution of family, Islam will still be there to uphold it. If the entire world agrees that sickness is health and health is sickness, Islam will still be there to remove the confusion and safeguard the health. You cannot ban light, and legislate darkness. Better, try to see the light yourself.

[beleiver]

One thing though the Catholics side of the Argument will probarbly not tell is the localy educated common man was prohibited from actually reading the bible, translating it from Latin in many cases was punishable by execution, the catholic followers pledged their allegience to the roman Catholic state not God as Jesus advised in his word, and of course the lie of the trinity was exposed.
There was also positives to come from the reformation that included mere pesants from reading what was left of the message of Jesus for them selves.
The persecutions and executions of healers diminished and advances in medical science were finally realised, and discoveries in this science confirmed what Islamic sholars had published around a 1000 years previously.

It was the pesants of Europe reading the bible for them selves that caused the reformation, prehaps, is that theory in this book?

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[Misbah-Abd]

The reason why the Catholic Church didn't want the people reading the Bible and also why they refused to translate it from Latin into other European languages is because they wanted to keep them ignorant and controlled. This Deen already has those who come from time to time to reform as the hadith mentions. But these men do not reform the religion because the religion is already perfected as Allah says in the Quran, "This day I have perfected your Deen for you..." but they reform the people and bring them back to the Quran and Sunnah. And Allah Knows Best.

- - - Updated - - -

That's the thing!

But if we dig in a bit more, the main target is to alter the Quran somehow (ilyazubillah min zalik). It is perplexing for the people who are observing Islam from outside. Sadly, it brings rage instead a moment of reflection. And for some, it is such an intense desire to go on whatever means to achieve this. The level is up to the point that any person with muslim name can become an instant celebrity by declaring that 'Quran needs to be updated' or 'Shariah needs to be rethought.'

You can alter the Quran not by changing it or taking out verses, but by reinterpreting it outside the rules of tafseer like the Modernist Deviants are doing and how many deviant sects came about by their flawed understanding of it.

[azc]

Tampering the Islamic classical text is often reported but problem is that some of us instead of accepting this reality begin to condemn them who tried highlighting this act of tampering.

E.g.

Riyad al-Salihin,Tafsir Ruh al-Ma`ani, al adhkar etc have been tampered.

following link highlights this aspect of some scholars.
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/masudq3.htm

RE-FORMING CLASSICAL TEXTS ...

[BurningHeart]

@Misbah-Abd

It would be a mistake in our part if we give in to the interpretation of the Quran of a person with a twisting intention.

[azc]

@Misbah-Abd

It would be a mistake in our part if we give in to the interpretation of the Quran of a person with a twisting intention.

Agree, but several progressive Muslims and wrong sufis have done wrong interpretation of Quranic verses.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Just one more, this is related to what we are discussing.

The Myth of Religious Violence: Secular Ideology and the Roots of Modern Conflict

Blurb

The idea that religion has a dangerous tendency to promote violence is part of the conventional wisdom of Western societies, and it underlies many of our institutions and policies, from limits on the public role of religion to efforts to promote liberal democracy in the Middle East. William T. Cavanaugh challenges this conventional wisdom by examining how the twin categories of religion and the secular are constructed. A growing body of scholarly work explores how the category 'religion' has been constructed in the modern West and in colonial contexts according to specific configurations of political power. Cavanaugh draws on this scholarship to examine how timeless and transcultural categories of 'religion and 'the secular' are used in arguments that religion causes violence. He argues three points: 1) There is no transhistorical and transcultural essence of religion. What counts as religious or secular in any given context is a function of political configurations of power; 2) Such a transhistorical and transcultural concept of religion as non-rational and prone to violence is one of the foundational legitimating myths of Western society; 3) This myth can be and is used to legitimate neo-colonial violence against non-Western others, particularly the Muslim world.

[azc]

Kufr is united as a nation..

[fschmidt]

The Reformation was the best thing that ever happened to Christianity, and Islam needs a reformation now. To understand the Reformation, go to original sources, not to Catholic lies or modern liberal lies. I recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Reformation-R...dp/0800663101/

The Reformation was not liberalizing at all. It was the opposite, a return to basic Christianity. The Catholic Church had become very corrupt.

William Cobbett, the author of this book, is unabashedly pro-Catholic in this writing, showing that England was far better off before the Protestant 'Reformation' of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I than she was afterwards. For example, during Catholic times there was greater prosperity, no penury, no poor laws, almost no crime, no income tax, and a greater national military strength.

This is completely absurd. To argue this is like arguing against someone who says that the sky is green, it is hopeless because it is so obviously false.

That Islam needs a Reformation should be obvious by comparing Islam today to early Islam. Early Islam was so much more moral and (therefore) powerful than Islam is today. A reformation would simply mean going back to the morals of early Islam. Such a reformtion would allow Islam to dominate the world, just as the Christian reformation resulted in Christianity dominating the world.

[Karl]

How can anyone reform perfection? That would only really mean corruption. People have free will so if they can't live by the Quran they don't have to. So to corrupt the Quran is to make heretics of the followers of that corrupt text. What would be the point? Allah may be more forgiving to atheists than those that follow a false Quran. Politically correct modern Muslims would be easier to control like bulls with their testicles cut off (steers). And we all know who is trying to reform Islam the most, the Western Zionists and cultural Marxists of course.
Original Christianity died with Jesus, only a cult of war and death remains. Heathen kings converted to "Christianity" because it guaranteed "divine rule" of the hereditary line. Heathen kings in the East converted to Islam because it was a total package of administration and law. So the great civilisations of Christianity and Islam was all down to convenience rather than faith.
Martin Luther had his heart in the right place but how would he know the disasters that followed? Religions are not the problem, the people are.

[azc]

The Reformation was the best thing that ever happened to Christianity, and Islam needs a reformation now. To understand the Reformation, go to original sources, not to Catholic lies or modern liberal lies. I recommend this book:https://www.amazon.com/Reformation-R...dp/0800663101/The Reformation was not liberalizing at all. It was the opposite, a return to basic Christianity. The Catholic Church had become very corrupt.This is completely absurd. To argue this is like arguing against someone who says that the sky is green, it is hopeless because it is so obviously false.That Islam needs a Reformation should be obvious by comparing Islam today to early Islam. Early Islam was so much more moral and (therefore) powerful than Islam is today. A reformation would simply mean going back to the morals of early Islam. Such a reformtion would allow Islam to dominate the world, just as the Christian reformation resulted in Christianity dominating the world.

Islam is the only perfect religion. It doesn't need any reformation like Christianity or any other religion. It's 'most of the Muslims' who need reformation

[anatolian]

How can anyone reform perfection? That would only really mean corruption. People have free will so if they can't live by the Quran they don't have to. So to corrupt the Quran is to make heretics of the followers of that corrupt text. What would be the point? Allah may be more forgiving to atheists than those that follow a false Quran. Politically correct modern Muslims would be easier to control like bulls with their testicles cut off (steers). And we all know who is trying to reform Islam the most, the Western Zionists and cultural Marxists of course.
Original Christianity died with Jesus, only a cult of war and death remains. Heathen kings converted to "Christianity" because it guaranteed "divine rule" of the hereditary line. Heathen kings in the East converted to Islam because it was a total package of administration and law. So the great civilisations of Christianity and Islam was all down to convenience rather than faith.
Martin Luther had his heart in the right place but how would he know the disasters that followed? Religions are not the problem, the people are.

I agree with your post but that "package of administration and law" is also a part of Islam. So those heaten kings cannot blamed for desiring it since it is one of purposes of the true religion.

- - - Updated - - -

The Reformation was the best thing that ever happened to Christianity, and Islam needs a reformation now. To understand the Reformation, go to original sources, not to Catholic lies or modern liberal lies. I recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Reformation-R...dp/0800663101/

The Reformation was not liberalizing at all. It was the opposite, a return to basic Christianity. The Catholic Church had become very corrupt.



This is completely absurd. To argue this is like arguing against someone who says that the sky is green, it is hopeless because it is so obviously false.

That Islam needs a Reformation should be obvious by comparing Islam today to early Islam. Early Islam was so much more moral and (therefore) powerful than Islam is today. A reformation would simply mean going back to the morals of early Islam. Such a reformtion would allow Islam to dominate the world, just as the Christian reformation resulted in Christianity dominating the world.

So you are talking about a "return" not "reform" and I and most probably majority of Muslims also agree with that. A reform is required when you believe in the basics of an old system but still have problems with some details and want to convert it to a new system. If we try to do it with Islam we corrupt it.

On the other hand, there is already an "adaptation" in Islam according to the needs of the new era. There would come a mujaddid every century who would adapt Islam and Muslims to the needs of the new era as the hadith says.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

The Reformation was the best thing that ever happened to Christianity, and Islam needs a reformation now. To understand the Reformation, go to original sources, not to Catholic lies or modern liberal lies. I recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Reformation-R...dp/0800663101/

The Reformation was not liberalizing at all. It was the opposite, a return to basic Christianity. The Catholic Church had become very corrupt.



This is completely absurd. To argue this is like arguing against someone who says that the sky is green, it is hopeless because it is so obviously false.

That Islam needs a Reformation should be obvious by comparing Islam today to early Islam. Early Islam was so much more moral and (therefore) powerful than Islam is today. A reformation would simply mean going back to the morals of early Islam. Such a reformtion would allow Islam to dominate the world, just as the Christian reformation resulted in Christianity dominating the world.

Ah the Catholic vs Protestant debate on the legacy of the reformation, to this day 500 years later still arouses strong emotions, understandably so.



The protesters' pamphlet stated in French

Our Cathedral of St Michael and St Gudula is a Catholic building built by our fathers to be a House of God for the celebration of the holy Mass, for the praise of God and the saints.

The occupation of our cathedral by Protestants to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation is therefore a profanation.

In fact, the supposed Reformation was really a revolt: under the pretext of combatting abuses, Luther rebelled against the divine authority of the Catholic Church, denied numerous truths of the Faith, abolished the Sacrifice of the Mass and the sacraments, rejected the necessity of good works and the practice of Christian virtues. Finally, he attacked the veneration of the Virgin Mary and the saints, the religious life and monastic vows.

This terrible revolution was a great tragedy for Christian society and for the salvation of souls. And the Lutheran errors are still heresies today because the Truth is eternal.

I'm no expert on this subject but Ill give my take on it.

I don't deny (and I'm sure many Catholics) the Catholic Church had serous internal problems and corruption, in response they did try to reform themselves. Also we have to factor in the rise of nationalism, rise of reading, decline of feudalism, the rise of centralised state power and a new oligarchy (Usury, bankers, lawyers, capitalist classes) among many other causes.

but overall (whether it was intended or not) led to the breakdown, fragmentation and eventual collapse of the whole notion Christendom, (Protestants splitting into 40000+ different sects) and paved the way for the rise of secularism, modernity, materialism and the slow decline of Christianity as a force in society (in Europe at least).

Christianity has had its problems before (the schism between Eastern Orthodox and Catholics during medieval times) but there was something about this split that was catastrophic. From a Muslim perspective we have to study this period carefully and learn the lessons.

Some more books

Blurb

This work offers a unique perspective on the rise of capitalism and socialism and the effect of the Reformation. Specific topics include consequences of belief in the private judgment of scriptures; separation of spiritual and secular life; difference between Lutheran and Calvinist teachings on economics; the Calvinist concept of vocation; its perception of material success as a sign of divine election; its praise of frugality and disdain for beauty. Also covered is socialism as a reaction to excesses of capitalism; the manner in which Protestantism had strengthened secular authority; diminution of charity toward the poor following Reformation; materialism underlying socialism abetted by Protestant emphasis on earthly prosperity; egalitarian ideas traceable to Protestantism; and the ease with which socialism blended into Protestant thought. This is a unique work of economic philosophy in that it examines the ideological causes of the economic changes of the period, thus offering a refreshing philosophical perspective rather than merely the mathematical or statistical sides of the question.

Blurb

In the department of human affairs concerned with the economic activities of man, the old universally accepted code of justice fell into disregard, if not into ridicule; and its place was taken, on the one hand, by the theory that only safe guide for man to follow in these affairs is his own personal interest, and, on the other hand, and partly as a reaction against this repulsive theory, that the individual has no right of initiative at all, but that his whole being must be subordinated to the welfare of the community. Both these theories would be equally disapproved by the old, despised ethical authority of the Middle Ages, under whose regime they could not have flourished and developed; but at the time when they arose, the old authrority was no longer universally accepted, and there was no power in Europe strong enough to withstand the march of these two dangerous doctrines. the path of both Capitalism and Socialism had been opened by the Reformation.

A review from amazon (UK)

Gabriel Jones
5.0 out of 5 starsExcellent Book!

What this book is not:

For anyone looking for hard data, graphs, numbers, and definitive economic information, this book does not contain anything of the sort. It is not a collection of boring charts, graphs, and models. As such, it does not conform to the prevailing modern interpretation of "economics." Neither is it a ardent defense of capitalism.

What this book is:

Far from boring, this book/essay is an excellent treatise on how the Protestant mindset stemming from the Reformation changed society's worldview of the economy and its operation. The content is closely aligned with the Austrian school's preference for philosophy, ethics, and the motivations behind human action. At times it is more of a Catholic moral theology text than an economics book - although the two are not mutually exclusive (which is more-or-less the point of the essay). At times it also becomes a sharp critique of Protestantism, especially the "Protestant Ethic" so often heralded in our modern world. As a contrast, it presents Catholic ethical teaching as the model from which economics should be considered. That being said, it posits both capitalism and communism as stemming from the same erroneous genesis (i.e., a focus on the material world), and in doing so offers profound and thought-provoking ideas for how the shallow paradigm of the modern world of business and economics might be changed for the better. Additionally, although it can be slightly heady, this book (when read with patience and some basic understanding of philosophy, theology, and economics) makes sense of basic economic theories without resorting to confusing graphs and charts.

Thank you for your book recommendation Fschmidt, Ill try and get it.