Why is the Koran True?

[Podo]

Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I'm hoping to stick around and have good discussions.

My purpose for this thread is to ask you all, in your own words, why you consider the narrative in the Koran to be the accurate and unaltered word of god.

I realize this may seem like a silly question, so I'll provide context for my curiosity. I'm an apatheist, someone who doesn't think that the existence or nonexistence of deities is an important question. Whether one exists or not, to me, is neither here nor there; I care about how a person acts and what they do for the people around them, and less about why they do the things they do. I have read a lot of religious texts in my life, however, because I find religion both fascinating and nonetheless a decent source of philosophy.

This philosophical view is what brought me to this forum. I have read the Koran twice now, once in English and once in German, unfortunately I do not speak Arabic or I'd have read it in that, too. For the most part, I like the philosophical message of the Koran, very much. I think it's undeniably more comprehensive/tolerant than any other Abrahamic text, and is also much clearer and less allegorical than most other religious texts. I don't think it's perfect, of course, but the philosophical and moral framework that one can construct from its pages are, at worst, decent, and at best they're conducive to a rather functional society. I like it enough, in fact, that I've found myself idly considering the idea of joining a muslim community.

My hang-up, however, is the belief aspect. I can (and do) respect the Koran as a philosophical text, a historical text, and even as a moral treatise. My issue is the last leap to actual belief in a deity. I understand that the pillars of Islam require the belief that there is no god but god, and that Muhammad was his last messenger, but the idea of believing in something that can't be established as observably true is difficult for me, especially since I have never put much thought or care into the existence of deities one way or another.

So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Good brother]

http://www.mediafire.com/file/husk7u...le+Version.pdf

Befreie-dich-von-deinem-Atheismus 2018_aktuelle Version Befreie-dich-von-deinem-Atheismus 2018_aktuelle Version.pdf...

[Podo]

Hah, guter Idee, aber ich weiss nicht wie! Es ist warum ich fragen dich :statisfie

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, Ich sehe dein Dokument! Danke schon :)

[Good brother]

You can have a look here too

https://issuu.com/cpsglobal/docs/godarises

You are welcome !

Issuu Issuu is a digital publishing platform that makes it simple to publish magazines, catalogs, newspapers, books, and more online. Easily share your publications and get them in front of Issuu’s millions of monthly readers. Title: God Arises, Author: CPS Global, Name: God Arises, Length: 473 pages, Page: 1, Published: 2011-03-10...

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[Alamgir]

Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I'm hoping to stick around and have good discussions.

My purpose for this thread is to ask you all, in your own words, why you consider the narrative in the Koran to be the accurate and unaltered word of god.

I realize this may seem like a silly question, so I'll provide context for my curiosity. I'm an apatheist, someone who doesn't think that the existence or nonexistence of deities is an important question. Whether one exists or not, to me, is neither here nor there; I care about how a person acts and what they do for the people around them, and less about why they do the things they do. I have read a lot of religious texts in my life, however, because I find religion both fascinating and nonetheless a decent source of philosophy.

This philosophical view is what brought me to this forum. I have read the Koran twice now, once in English and once in German, unfortunately I do not speak Arabic or I'd have read it in that, too. For the most part, I like the philosophical message of the Koran, very much. I think it's undeniably more comprehensive/tolerant than any other Abrahamic text, and is also much clearer and less allegorical than most other religious texts. I don't think it's perfect, of course, but the philosophical and moral framework that one can construct from its pages are, at worst, decent, and at best they're conducive to a rather functional society. I like it enough, in fact, that I've found myself idly considering the idea of joining a muslim community.

My hang-up, however, is the belief aspect. I can (and do) respect the Koran as a philosophical text, a historical text, and even as a moral treatise. My issue is the last leap to actual belief in a deity. I understand that the pillars of Islam require the belief that there is no god but god, and that Muhammad was his last messenger, but the idea of believing in something that can't be established as observably true is difficult for me, especially since I have never put much thought or care into the existence of deities one way or another.

So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Oh boy, this is going to be a long conversation. I'll try to summarise, but if you express further interest I and other members will expand upon these initial remarks:

1. The concept of God

The universe had a start, this is scientifically accepted. God is simply what caused the universe to be, it's important to stress this since many like to equate belief in God with believing in unicorns or other mythical creatures of that sort. The concept of God is perfectly logical, and it has been rigorously proven that the universe forming by chance is so mindbogglingly low you might as well make it zero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjGPHF5A6Po
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T_P14JjMcM

2. Claims it is God's word

Pretty basic start. The Quran claims it is God's word, therefore, we should at the very least consider its claims. Funnily enough, other religious texts from faiths such as Hinduism or Christianity don't really directly make this claim (the Bible calls itself the inspired word of God, and the Rigveda can be interpreted in an atheistic manner).

3. No contradictions/errors

The Quran further solidifies its claims by lacking any contradictions/errors. Many may claim it has contradictions/errors, but these have been debunked by many before me, and will be debunked by many after me. A simple google search will find you many intelligent Islamic apologists who prove very well how the Quran has no contradictions/errors, and even provide their own evidences for the truth of Islam. Here are just a few:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqY...zM4hA3w/videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx4...YjIemzw/videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnZ...Hk1nEOA/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheDawowProject/channels
https://www.youtube.com/user/DawahFilms/videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHD...DIc8efQ/videos
https://www.letmeturnthetables.com/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/
https://alfinlandi.wordpress.com/author/alfinlandi/

What's more, the Quran actually challenges its readers to try and find contradictions within it, a falsification test if you will. Speaking of which:

4. Produce something like it challenge

Other than the challenge to try to find contradictions, the Quran also has other falsification tests. The most famous one is the challenge to try and produce a single chapter (i.e just 3 verses) like it. In order to qualify as like the Quran, this chapter must be coherent and in the same literary style in the Quran. This has never been done throughout history (as per the consensus of literary scholars), and is regarded as being impossible in its entirety as the Quran's literary style is quite literally unique, not a single piece in history has been written in the same literary style. It's also the only literary piece in history to achieve this (have a unique literary style that nobody can replicate). Here are some links explaining the subject in more detail, and debunking those who claim the challenge has been beaten:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/
https://suralikeitrefuted.wordpress.com/

5. Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Peace Be Upon Him)

If we are to suppose that the Quran was invented by Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Peace Be Upon Him), then why would he do so? For power/wealth? He already belonged to the most powerful tribe in in Mecca (the Quraysh). Not only that, but when he was preaching, wealth was offered to him in spades if he just stopped preaching, yet he still preached despite experiencing horrible persecution. He also spent most of his life (even when he managed to take power) living a very humble lifestyle. For women? He was married to the wealthiest woman in Mecca, for most of his life lived in a monogamous relationship, and again, was offered such lucrative rewards if he just stopped preaching. Not to mention if we wanted material gains, why not preach a faith more palatable to the Meccans? The only other option is that he's crazy, which he isn't. He has no symptoms of any mental illness, in fact, he has quite the opposite. Here are some links explaining this in more detail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Yv-uXwihI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOJgeNJeFgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9cF31bUf70

Also, nobody else could have made Islam, since Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Peace Be Upon Him) was certainly not a made up historical figure (there is far too much proof of his existence), if he borrowed from previous sources literally everyone would call him out for it (we'd also be able to discover it pretty quickly), and if he was simply preaching on someone else's behalf, why is it he is central to Islam's message? What kind of person would accept someone else taking their idea and using it for their own gains, whilst sidelining them into the background? It also could not have been a group effort since again, only Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Peace Be Upon Him) holds such a high status in Islam, none of his contemporaries hold such a high position.

6. Other claims

There are numerous other pieces of proof people have, and of course it is impossible to go over all of them. The previous links in point number 3 will be a great guide in order to find these other pieces of proof, but I will also recommend Abdur Raheem Green's series on why Islam is the truth, which of course I will provide a link for:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...4B62A190046A64

Feel free to also ask me and other members on this forum anything.

[Podo]

That's a lot of information, thanks very much for taking the time to collect it all. I've actually seen some of it before, part of why I posted in this board is because there's also a lot of garbage material floating about the interwebs and sifting through the trash to find the gold is a herculean task. I'm going to start with the Abdur Raheem Green series and then more or less go down the list in order. I appreciate the effort :)

[Alamgir]

That's a lot of information, thanks very much for taking the time to collect it all. I've actually seen some of it before, part of why I posted in this board is because there's also a lot of garbage material floating about the interwebs and sifting through the trash to find the gold is a herculean task. I'm going to start with the Abdur Raheem Green series and then more or less go down the list in order. I appreciate the effort :)

I know it's long, sorry.

Green's series is probably the best place to start, you can make your way from there.

Make sure you do not keep any questions kept up inside you, always ask them so we can answer them.

[Podo]

I shall do, thanks very much :)

[Zafran]

So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?

God explains why we are here and why the universe exists in the first place, there are many things Humans do like ethics, aesthetics, finding meaning, politics and History that cannot be just reduced to materialism. I would even argue that human freewill and consciousness can not be reduced to a materialistic view. - all other answers IMO are weak or non answers. There are other religions like Hinduism and Buddhisms but they lack urgency unlike the Monotheistic religions, specifically Islam and Christianity but I disagree with Jesus pbuh being divine or the trinity.

Islam seems to be the best explanation and is holistic view of the universe and how we know God through revelation, prophets and the universe itself. It also links all of humanity to a monotheistic God and gives a solid Purpose and meaning to life, which I believe any materialistic philosophy from The Greeks to the logical positivist does not provide.

You might want to check out Al Ghazzali, Hamza Yusuf and Abdal hakim murad - the reading of the Quran and some Muslim scholars past and present played a critical role on my journey in Islam.

edit - I like to add that God is not an Object that can be empirically verifiable - God is a metaphysical like free will, causality, being. God grounds all of reality including Time and space which is needed in the first place for empiricism.

peace

[Podo]

There are other religions like Hinduism and Buddhisms but they lack urgency unlike the Monotheistic religions, specifically Islam and Christianity but I disagree with Jesus pbuh being divine or the trinity.

I'm interested in the above quoted section. What makes you say that? I've read a lot of Buddhist and Hindu texts, and I'm not sure I follow you. Are you referring to the cycle of Samsara and the fulfillment of dharma? Hinduism, moreso than Buddhism, in my opinion, offers a strikingly unified theory for the oneness and purpose for the universe, including a form of soft monotheism with all the Hindu deities being aspects of Krishna, the single unifying aspect. Furthermore, the concept of dharma itself provides an inherent purpose for each living being (assuming you're an adherent, anyway).

To be clear, I'm not trying to argue as much as I'm interested in why you think that Islam's message is more complete than that of the bulk of Hindu scripture, or the Buddhist texts.

[Ümit]

My hang-up, however, is the belief aspect. I can (and do) respect the Koran as a philosophical text, a historical text, and even as a moral treatise. My issue is the last leap to actual belief in a deity. I understand that the pillars of Islam require the belief that there is no god but god, and that Muhammad was his last messenger, but the idea of believing in something that can't be established as observably true is difficult for me, especially since I have never put much thought or care into the existence of deities one way or another.

So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

The question is, how can YOU get past this point? How can you possibly believe that everything you see around you with such perfection can exist on its own without an intelligent designer behind it?
I know it sounds logical to say that if there is a chance that something will happen, then no matter how small that chance is, that will happen if you wait long enough.
but please consider this example:
certain atoms must mix with each in certain way under certain conditions to form a DNA molecule. These molecules should find each other to form a Gen, Gens must form a chromosome. only then cells can be formed...still the environment must be just right. after then a body can be formed...then still you would have a body with no life in it. so the first thing is, is the 14 billion years of time enough to form a body on its own by just coincidence? I do not think so.
the second thing is, even if the 14 billion years was long enough, this would still not explain how those cells and bodies came to life.
There has to be something intelligent behind this all. Believing that everything evolved on its own just does not make sense.
I am not against evolution, do not get me wrong, But evolution without God is just not possible.

So to me, there is no other logical answer than to believe in God.

About why we believe that the Quran is accurate and unaltered, you should learn more about the history of Islam, how the procedure was how the quran was revealed and under which conditions.
We could give you information about this if you are interested.

[Ümit]

Update:
I am also a person who is driven by logic. I love science and for me, everything must be good explainable. But believing in God does not mean rejecting science and logic.
I still support the Big bang theory. I still support evolution. they are perfectly in sync with my religion. behind the scenes of this Big Bang and evolution God is still present. Evolution, if it is really true, is a tool God uses to create different lifeforms.
It would make no sense to believe in a religion that is the opposite to science. God would not create a world and teach something opposite to it in his Holy Books.
So first rule: believing in a God does not mean you should stop using your own mind.
Second part of your question why is it important to believe in God:
many people ask themselves the question, what is the purpose of life?
a little background information about this.
God does not need any helpers or whatsoever. He created out of compassion and loving-kindness. He is perfectly capable of creating perfect and powerfull creatures like angels, and he did.
But he also chose to create humans who can be lazy and stubborn and disobediant. we are not so fast, strong or powerfull as the angels.
But still we could have a higher rank than the angels. This, because we have one feature that the angels do not have: a free will.
We can choose to obey God on our own or not to. Angels do not have that option. they cannot say they do not want to obey, they are not programmed to do so
so, despite our weaknesses and other shortcomings, we choose to believe and obey God...out of free will...and that exactly gives us a higher rank than the angels.

So the purpose of life is actualy: finding out on your own that there is a God and to believe and obey him.
That is our test on this world, that is our task. I say "test", but it is not really a test. God already knows the outcome of it. he does not need to test us. This "test" is meant for ourselves...to make us witnesses of our very own choices and decisions.
an example: if we never lived in this world, and God would just create us and threw us directly in Hell, we would complain something like "why God? what did we do to deserve such punishment?" and Gods reply would be something like "because I know you better than you know yourself". But that answer would never satisfy us. By coming to this world first, we will be witnesses of our own acts, choices and decisions. and then we will understand why we are granted to Heaven or thrown in Hell.

That is why believing in God is important.

Sorry for the long post, but the answer is just not so easy.

[Zafran]

I'm interested in the above quoted section. What makes you say that? I've read a lot of Buddhist and Hindu texts, and I'm not sure I follow you. Are you referring to the cycle of Samsara and the fulfillment of dharma? Hinduism, moreso than Buddhism, in my opinion, offers a strikingly unified theory for the oneness and purpose for the universe, including a form of soft monotheism with all the Hindu deities being aspects of Krishna, the single unifying aspect. Furthermore, the concept of dharma itself provides an inherent purpose for each living being (assuming you're an adherent, anyway).

To be clear, I'm not trying to argue as much as I'm interested in why you think that Islam's message is more complete than that of the bulk of Hindu scripture, or the Buddhist texts.

Very simple If I'm coming back here again and have endless chances I have no reason to believe in it. It lacks Urgency. Especially in the life I'm living.

[Podo]

Very simple If I'm coming back here again and have endless chances I have no reason to believe in it. It lacks Urgency. Especially in the life I'm living.

Then I guess my next question is, why is it important to you that your ethos have a sense of urgency? If a system has one try or many, why does that matter? In the Buddhist/Hindu systems, the progression of the soul is not tied to a single lifetime, unlike most religions, so they are only "less urgent" when looked at from an outside perspective. I would imagine other paths would look very rushed to a Buddhist or a Hindu.

Update:
I am also a person who is driven by logic. I love science and for me, everything must be good explainable. But believing in God does not mean rejecting science and logic.
I still support the Big bang theory. I still support evolution. they are perfectly in sync with my religion. behind the scenes of this Big Bang and evolution God is still present. Evolution, if it is really true, is a tool God uses to create different lifeforms.
It would make no sense to believe in a religion that is the opposite to science. God would not create a world and teach something opposite to it in his Holy Books.
So first rule: believing in a God does not mean you should stop using your own mind.
Second part of your question why is it important to believe in God:
many people ask themselves the question, what is the purpose of life?
a little background information about this.
God does not need any helpers or whatsoever. He created out of compassion and loving-kindness. He is perfectly capable of creating perfect and powerfull creatures like angels, and he did.
But he also chose to create humans who can be lazy and stubborn and disobediant. we are not so fast, strong or powerfull as the angels.
But still we could have a higher rank than the angels. This, because we have one feature that the angels do not have: a free will.
We can choose to obey God on our own or not to. Angels do not have that option. they cannot say they do not want to obey, they are not programmed to do so
so, despite our weaknesses and other shortcomings, we choose to believe and obey God...out of free will...and that exactly gives us a higher rank than the angels.

So the purpose of life is actualy: finding out on your own that there is a God and to believe and obey him.
That is our test on this world, that is our task. I say "test", but it is not really a test. God already knows the outcome of it. he does not need to test us. This "test" is meant for ourselves...to make us witnesses of our very own choices and decisions.
an example: if we never lived in this world, and God would just create us and threw us directly in Hell, we would complain something like "why God? what did we do to deserve such punishment?" and Gods reply would be something like "because I know you better than you know yourself". But that answer would never satisfy us. By coming to this world first, we will be witnesses of our own acts, choices and decisions. and then we will understand why we are granted to Heaven or thrown in Hell.

That is why believing in God is important.

Sorry for the long post, but the answer is just not so easy.

If I understand you correctly, and please correct me if I do not, would be it be fair to say that you can reconcile modern science and your religion by placing god as the originator of the scientific processes that we can observe in the modern day, such as gravity, evolution, the big bang, etc? You don't deny our current understanding of the universe, you just attribute the existence of the universe as well as the principle laws (thermodynamics, physics, etc) to your god?
If so, I suppose I can understand this approach. I don't know that I agree that life being spontaneously created without the help of a deity is impossible, but it is very statistically unlikely, and I can definitely see your logic and understand how you have reached your conclusion.

Regarding the second part of your post, I appreciate your taking the time to answer thoughtfully. With that in mind, what would your opinion be towards someone who, for argument's sake, wasn't sure of the existence of a god, but who nevertheless based their philosophy on the Koran and otherwise lived according to its teachings? Is the final belief in god required, in your opinion, or is an honest attempt in the face of doubt acceptable?

[Ümit]

If I understand you correctly, and please correct me if I do not, would be it be fair to say that you can reconcile modern science and your religion by placing god as the originator of the scientific processes that we can observe in the modern day, such as gravity, evolution, the big bang, etc? You don't deny our current understanding of the universe, you just attribute the existence of the universe as well as the principle laws (thermodynamics, physics, etc) to your god?

Yes, you summarized it correctly. The originator, the designer and the initiator of every law of nature and every event happening is God, nothing happens without His will. I do not deny our current understanding of the scientific processes, (if its pure scientific, not like Darwin to promote his atheism)
So, I do support evolution.

If so, I suppose I can understand this approach. I don't know that I agree that life being spontaneously created without the help of a deity is impossible, but it is very statistically unlikely, and I can definitely see your logic and understand how you have reached your conclusion.

If you agree that it is very statistically unlikely that life is being created without God, then what other logical answer can there be? and what exactly is keeping you from believing in God? I do not find that logical.

Regarding the second part of your post, I appreciate your taking the time to answer thoughtfully. With that in mind, what would your opinion be towards someone who, for argument's sake, wasn't sure of the existence of a god, but who nevertheless based their philosophy on the Koran and otherwise lived according to its teachings? Is the final belief in god required, in your opinion, or is an honest attempt in the face of doubt acceptable?

No it is not acceptable.
if it was the other way around:
someone who was sure of the existence of God, who believed that the Quran was His word, but did not understand the logic behind it, but still trusts that the teaching is correct and lives accordingly, that would be acceptable. Because he might not understand everything but he trusts that he is walking on Gods path.

Someone who still doubts in the existence of God, but lives accordingly to the teachings of God, would fail the test. you remember what our purpose of life is? to find God, to believe in him.

So, this person would be rewarded greatly for his good deeds, but in the end he will not be granted into heaven.

Of course, i am not the one who decides this persons faith in the end, but with such doubt in one's heart, it is very risky.

I do not know whether you mean yourself with "this person", but if it is you, then I would recommend you to remove this doubt and start truely believing in God. as you can see it is very logical and you do not have to give up logic, reason and science for it.

Your well being is very dependant on this.

[Ümit]

Update:

Let me please elaborate this a little:
(The description I give in this post is as far as I think how it would be. to my fellow muslims: If I am wrong, I am sorry, so please correct me.)
After your death you will be going through some stages:
first the Barzaq, this is the time between your death and the Day of Judgement. The time in Barzaq is relative. It is different for every individual. Some will experience it as a few seconds, or hours...other will experience it as centuries.
After the Day of Judgement there is eternal Heaven or eternal Hell. This is an absulute day for every individual. Everyone will be awakened from the death and walk into Heaven or fall in Hell on this day.

So during the Barzaq you will have these options:
if you have died with faith in God in your heart, but you have sins, this would be weight against your good deeds and compensated, if you still have sins left over, you will be punished for these greatly. For those people, Barzaq can be one of the pits of Hell.

if you have died with no faith in God, but you have done a lot of good deeds, this would be weight against your sins and compensated, if you still have good deeds left over, you will be rewarded greatly for this. For those people, Barzaq can be one of the gardens of Heaven.

Eventually, on the Judgement day, when we all awake at the same time...Believers will be totally sin free as for the disbelievers will be totally good-deeds-free. We all will see the Heaven on the other side of a deep canyon. the bottom of this canyon is Hell.
the Heaven is only reachable by crossing a bridge, the Siraat bridge. this Brigde is a wide bridge for believers, but it will become very narrow for disbelievers. people who manage to get to the other side (with Gods mercy) will enter Heaven for eternity. others will fall off the bridge into Hell for eternity.


So, again, it all boils down to believing or not believing in God.


I have to nuance this a little bit.

God is mercyfull. if you have faith in God in your heart with the weight of a mustard seed, you will be considered as a believer.
Eventually, God is the one who will judge over you.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

If you agree that it is very statistically unlikely that life is being created without God, then what other logical answer can there be? and what exactly is keeping you from believing in God? I do not find that logical.

Lots of things are statistically unlikely. It doesn't mean they don't happen. People win lotteries, meet friends by chance or survive serious accidents against astronomical odds, but we don't automatically assign a supernatural explanation to these outcomes. In other words, supernatural agency is not the only remaining logical answer.

Peace

[Ümit]

Greetings,
Lots of things are statistically unlikely. It doesn't mean they don't happen. People win lotteries, meet friends by chance or survive serious accidents against astronomical odds, but we don't automatically assign a supernatural explanation to these outcomes. In other words, supernatural agency is not the only remaining logical answer.
Peace

İ do respect you czgibson, but İ think you've got not idea how big the difference between these odds is.
Having a serious accident after being struck by lightning...and then survive against astronomical odds...and in the hospital meeting a friend who has survived a similar accident...and then winning the main prize in the lottery every month for the rest of your life...would still be a much much bigger chance then the universe as we know it being created on its own.
You cannot even compare these chances.

- - - Updated - - -

Ow and consider this...the Earth is 14 billion years old...it took the earth 14 billion years to get to the state we live in...if in these 14 billion years the earth got struck by a big meteor...everything would be destroyed totally...yet somehow miraculously this did not happen...

[czgibson]

Greetings,

İ do respect you czgibson, but İ think you've got not idea how big the difference between these odds is.
Having a serious accident after being struck by lightning...and then survive against astronomical odds...and in the hospital meeting a friend who has survived a similar accident...and then winning the main prize in the lottery every month for the rest of your life...would still be a much much bigger chance then the universe as we know it being created on its own.

I respect you too, and I think on the whole you have a rather reasonable approach to thinking about these things.

My point here is that if something is said to be statistically unlikely, that is not equivalent to saying it can't happen. Therefore it cannot be ruled out by logic alone.

I've given you some examples of unlikely things, and you say that you have a much more unlikely example, but it really doesn't alter the point.

And that's even if you could safely assign a probability to the formation of the universe. It's only happened once, as far as we know, so in a sense the probability of the universe forming is 1, because it has.

I know people have attempted to speculate as rigorously as possible on what the probability might be, but any figures you come across are riven with doubts and wide margins of error due to our total ignorance on what happened before the Big Bang.

Ow and consider this...the Earth is 14 billion years old...it took the earth 14 billion years to get to the state we live in...if in these 14 billion years the earth got struck by a big meteor...everything would be destroyed totally...yet somehow miraculously this did not happen...

Telling us about things that have not happened may or may not get us very far with figuring out what may have caused things to happen first. However, the universe has a vast amount of space in it, so the odds against such a cataclysm can be estimated more reliably (i. e. we can safely describe their minimum bounds).

Peace

[Zafran]

Then I guess my next question is, why is it important to you that your ethos have a sense of urgency? If a system has one try or many, why does that matter? In the Buddhist/Hindu systems, the progression of the soul is not tied to a single lifetime, unlike most religions, so they are only "less urgent" when looked at from an outside perspective. I would imagine other paths would look very rushed to a Buddhist or a Hindu.

Urgency is everything - we do most things because they stare us right in the face - death. Saying we are going to come back a lot of times (like a video game) the tension and the seriousness is sort of lost in the process. pascal wager on the thing your going to take much more time on the one life and one shot. If your going to get loads of chances you might as well take your time.........but that is a huge risk especially if you are not coming back.

Looking at life it doesn't seem to be made for us to stay for long anyway - too many things kill you and test you.

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for argument's sake, wasn't sure of the existence of a god, but who nevertheless based their philosophy on the Koran and otherwise lived according to its teachings? Is the final belief in god required, in your opinion, or is an honest attempt in the face of doubt acceptable?

Then one would conclude that the person hasn't read or studied the Quran as one of the central claims of the Quran is that is from God. It underpins the whole moral, existential, eschatological message.

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Greetings,



Lots of things are statistically unlikely. It doesn't mean they don't happen. People win lotteries, meet friends by chance or survive serious accidents against astronomical odds, but we don't automatically assign a supernatural explanation to these outcomes. In other words, supernatural agency is not the only remaining logical answer.

Peace

Like miracles also:p - on a serious note Muslims regard the Laws and regularities of nature as an act/habit of God - so if low probability things happen then they have occurred for a reason and not out of some random chance - there isnt demarcation between the supernatural and natural in Islam - Instead we have the seen and unseen. They are all creation's of God.

[Podo]

If you agree that it is very statistically unlikely that life is being created without God, then what other logical answer can there be? and what exactly is keeping you from believing in God? I do not find that logical.

While again, I understand your thought process, just because something is supremely unlikely doesn't mean that god is the inevitable alternative. I'm not necessarily ruling it out, but a lack of proof for something doesn't necessitate that a god is responsible. Furthermore, let's say that one does believe that the universe needed, at the very least, an original push from some kind of creator deity. Why would it be the god of Islam? That's more what I'm here to find out from all of you; why, out of all the religions of the world, should/would someone choose this god over the millions of others? Everyone is an atheist when it comes to all religions other than one's own, after all.

So, this person would be rewarded greatly for his good deeds, but in the end he will not be granted into heaven.

What rewards exist other than heaven? I do not remember a part of the Koran that mentions this, but it was a while ago that I last read it. I'd be grateful if you could point me in the right direction, in terms of the Suras that mention this particular part.

I do not know whether you mean yourself with "this person", but if it is you, then I would recommend you to remove this doubt and start truely believing in God. as you can see it is very logical and you do not have to give up logic, reason and science for it.

Your well being is very dependant on this.

It's 50% me and 50% hypothetical :D

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Update:

Let me please elaborate this a little:
(The description I give in this post is as far as I think how it would be. to my fellow muslims: If I am wrong, I am sorry, so please correct me.)
After your death you will be going through some stages:
first the Barzaq, this is the time between your death and the Day of Judgement. The time in Barzaq is relative. It is different for every individual. Some will experience it as a few seconds, or hours...other will experience it as centuries.
After the Day of Judgement there is eternal Heaven or eternal Hell. This is an absulute day for every individual. Everyone will be awakened from the death and walk into Heaven or fall in Hell on this day.

So during the Barzaq you will have these options:
if you have died with faith in God in your heart, but you have sins, this would be weight against your good deeds and compensated, if you still have sins left over, you will be punished for these greatly. For those people, Barzaq can be one of the pits of Hell.

if you have died with no faith in God, but you have done a lot of good deeds, this would be weight against your sins and compensated, if you still have good deeds left over, you will be rewarded greatly for this. For those people, Barzaq can be one of the gardens of Heaven.

Eventually, on the Judgement day, when we all awake at the same time...Believers will be totally sin free as for the disbelievers will be totally good-deeds-free. We all will see the Heaven on the other side of a deep canyon. the bottom of this canyon is Hell.
the Heaven is only reachable by crossing a bridge, the Siraat bridge. this Brigde is a wide bridge for believers, but it will become very narrow for disbelievers. people who manage to get to the other side (with Gods mercy) will enter Heaven for eternity. others will fall off the bridge into Hell for eternity.


So, again, it all boils down to believing or not believing in God.


I have to nuance this a little bit.

God is mercyfull. if you have faith in God in your heart with the weight of a mustard seed, you will be considered as a believer.
Eventually, God is the one who will judge over you.

See, this is more what I was looking for! Thanks for elaborating. The "believe or burn forever" idea has always made me pause, and it's something that is relatively unique to Abrahamic religions. But this actually seems to reflect the constant claims of muslims and the Koran that their god is one of mercy, since those who live righteous lives still sound like they will have that taken into consideration.

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Then one would conclude that the person hasn't read or studied the Quran as one of the central claims of the Quran is that is from God. It underpins the whole moral, existential, eschatological message.

True! However, I'm curious as to the general opinion of someone who, for whatever reason, didn't believe that the Koran was created by a god but who nevertheless supported the philosophical and moral framework it provided.

[Ümit]

While again, I understand your thought process, just because something is supremely unlikely doesn't mean that god is the inevitable alternative. I'm not necessarily ruling it out, but a lack of proof for something doesn't necessitate that a god is responsible. Furthermore, let's say that one does believe that the universe needed, at the very least, an original push from some kind of creator deity. Why would it be the god of Islam? That's more what I'm here to find out from all of you; why, out of all the religions of the world, should/would someone choose this god over the millions of others? Everyone is an atheist when it comes to all religions other than one's own, after all.

Fair point.
just because something is supremely unlikely doesn't mean that god is the inevitable alternative. if you have a theory and after examining it the theory tuns out to be false then you have to think out another theory. That is how science works. In this case however you have already an alternative. God proved his existence time after time with his miracles. with mozes splitting the seas, with noah and his ark, with Jesus healing the sick and bringing the dead back to life, with Mohammed with the revelation of the Quran. People just had to acknowledge his existence.

If you look at how the Quran is revealed. Mohammed pbuh was illiterate...he could not have written the Quran on his own. Yet the Quran is revealed part by part in 20 years time with his help. It's style is poetic all over and the style does not change, that means, no indication that there was a second author.
If you analyse the Quran you would see it is flawless. The verses do not contradict with each other (you have to read the Tafsir also to fully understand what the verses are about) and nothing in the Quran contradicts with science.
(This is a challenge to find a mistake in the Quran)

In short, the revelation of the Quran is miraculous. You just have to see and acknowledge that.

Why God of Islam? There is no God of Islam. There is only one God...our God...it is the God of the Jews, Christians, Hindu, Budhists and all other religions. God created first Adam pbuh. After Adam people started to add innovations to their faith. there was no one to correct them, so slowly they started to wander of the right path and a new religion was born. God send a new prophet to guide the people to the right path out of mercy. History repeated himself over and over again...every time creating a new religion and every time a prophet was send to them to guide people back to the one universal religion. So every prophet, Jesus pbuh, Mozes pbuh, Abraham pbuh, Adam pbuh, Noah pbuh, Solomon pbuh, David pbuh, Muhammed pbuh and many many others...all share the same universal religion. Islam is not the name of the religion...It is just Arabic for "submission to God". It contains every other religion.

Do you think it is coincidence that the basic message of every religion is the same? the basic morals and teachings are the same...well that is why.
You can find flaws in every other religion. just investigate and you will find out. You will never find flaws in Islam.

So, summarized...God can never be proven using pure science. God already ruled that out, because if that could be proven...then we did not have to believe Him...our test here on earth would be useless.
So Existence of God cannot be proven.
You have to see the miracles around you and the miracles in the past and trust that he is there. God provided miracles all over..you just have to see it.
Islam is the universal religion and is flawless. all other religions contain flaws.

What rewards exist other than heaven? I do not remember a part of the Koran that mentions this, but it was a while ago that I last read it. I'd be grateful if you could point me in the right direction, in terms of the Suras that mention this particular part.

There are many other rewards. Going to heaven is not the only reward. two people in Heaven would experience Heaven totally different. Eating the same fruit would cause a much greater pleasure for the one than for the other...but since they cannot feel each others experiences...ther will not be jealousy between them.
As said, Barzaq can be one of the gardens of Heaven for a limited period of time. this is also a reward.
The ultimate reward is to be in front of God
Then you have many many suras who speak about rewards when you do this or do that.

It's 50% me and 50% hypothetical :D

See, this is more what I was looking for! Thanks for elaborating. The "believe or burn forever" idea has always made me pause, and it's something that is relatively unique to Abrahamic religions. But this actually seems to reflect the constant claims of muslims and the Koran that their god is one of mercy, since those who live righteous lives still sound like they will have that taken into consideration.

The punishment of Hell for eternity is needed to give us the true freedom of will. you have to be able to choose consiously between good and evil otherwise it has no use. you have to have a choice between good and bad to be able to choose...without the bad, you cannot choose for the good...God can not pretend to have an eternal hell...that would be lying...Then God would be an imposter...So eternal Hell is actually an option.

But again...God is mercyfull. you would have to do a lot wrong to deserve eternal Hell. If you would repent at the last second of your lifetime...or if you have faith in God with the weight of a mustard grain...your final destination will be Heaven.

True! However, I'm curious as to the general opinion of someone who, for whatever reason, didn't believe that the Koran was created by a god but who nevertheless supported the philosophical and moral framework it provided.

Again...that is not enough. if you absolutely ruled God out of your heart...then you can support the philosophical framework of the Quran all you want...but that will not benefit you much...You may experience Heaven in Barzaq for a very long time...but eventually on judgement day...your destination would be hell after all.

[beleiver]

I suppose i was attracted to Islam from finding God first, then Islam..Which i think is the opposite to the OP..

The only way to truly beleive in God in my experience is open your heart and mind to Him, take a good honest look at yourself and ask Him to forgive your sins..Ask Him for guidnace and mercy and see what happens..Look for a sign.

I dont think its possible to truly believe in God unless you open your heart and mind to Him first.

I believe the Quran is the Truth as it describes what i experinced and observed on my spiritual journey..

[Scimitar]

https://iera.org/product/the-eternal-challenge-2/

Best part is, it's free to order the book! All the answers are in this book, in sh'Allah

The Eternal Challenge | iERA - Conveying The Call ...

[talibilm]

Plain and Easy

Its from the Creator of the everything it exists and all major religions have Prophesied its coming with the last messenger of the Creator Lord and so its true a holy book with no discrepancies , see these threads how other religions Prophesied this last Testament with the last Messenger of God, The Creator.

https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/mi...ot-be-mohammed

https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/mi...-muhammad-pbuh

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Plain and Easy

Its from the Creator of the everything it exists and all major religions have Prophesied its coming with the last messenger of the Creator Lord and so its true, see these threads how other religions Prophesied this last Testament with the last Messenger of God, The Creator.

https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/mi...ot-be-mohammed

https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/mi...-muhammad-pbuh

[Podo]

God proved his existence time after time with his miracles. with mozes splitting the seas, with noah and his ark, with Jesus healing the sick and bringing the dead back to life, with Mohammed with the revelation of the Quran. People just had to acknowledge his existence.

Other religions have their stories of miracles too, though.

If you look at how the Quran is revealed. Mohammed pbuh was illiterate...he could not have written the Quran on his own. Yet the Quran is revealed part by part in 20 years time with his help. It's style is poetic all over and the style does not change, that means, no indication that there was a second author.
If you analyse the Quran you would see it is flawless. The verses do not contradict with each other (you have to read the Tafsir also to fully understand what the verses are about) and nothing in the Quran contradicts with science.
(This is a challenge to find a mistake in the Quran)

This is actually something I find intriguing, and a large part of why I decided to post on this forum in the first place. Granted, I've only read the Koran in translation, but the idea that a (supposedly) illiterate trader with no real knowledge of anything other than trading matters could write something such as the Koran is unlikely at best and worth investigating at worst. I'm an amateur linguist (I speak English, German, Mandarin, my Russian and Spanish is alright, and in university I studied Old English, Old Norse, and Middle Egyptian) and my interest in the Koran partially stems from my interest, via Middle Egyptian, of Classical Arabic. From the small parts I've been able to learn enough to understand, the poetry is very advanced. Does this mean it HAS to be divine? No. But, it doesn't rule divinity out, I suppose.

Something I find troubling, though, is that to "fully understand" the Koran, I've heard from many sources that you need to read this, and read that, and talk to so-and-so, and etc etc. It seems like one needs a degree in Koranic studies to "fully understand" the text. This seems to contradict sure 16:89, though, which is and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything (16:89). Wouldn't a book that is designed to be the clear word of a creator deity logically be easy to understand? Why would the revelations not be clear, with easy to understand examples? Some of the Koran is very straightforward, absolutely, but some isn't. This seems counterintuitive.

Do you think it is coincidence that the basic message of every religion is the same? the basic morals and teachings are the same...well that is why.
You can find flaws in every other religion. just investigate and you will find out. You will never find flaws in Islam.

I think that depends on how you determine flaws. Logical contradictions? Maybe not. I can't say that I'm very pleased with the treatment of women, however. Is that a logical flaw? No, but it's still not something that I would consider a positive thing. I think its issues are fewer than many other spiritual paths, for sure, but it isn't flawless.

So, summarized...God can never be proven using pure science. God already ruled that out, because if that could be proven...then we did not have to believe Him...our test here on earth would be useless.
So Existence of God cannot be proven.

This is a common thread for most religions, unfortunately. It's also the part that I struggle with.

Again...that is not enough. if you absolutely ruled God out of your heart...then you can support the philosophical framework of the Quran all you want...but that will not benefit you much...You may experience Heaven in Barzaq for a very long time...but eventually on judgement day...your destination would be hell after all.

What happens to those who don't have the option to convert to Islam? For argument's sake, what happens to the people who live in remote areas and never are exposed to this religion?

Thank you for your continued engagement! I appreciate you taking the time to engage with all my inquiry.

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I suppose i was attracted to Islam from finding God first, then Islam..Which i think is the opposite to the OP..

The only way to truly beleive in God in my experience is open your heart and mind to Him, take a good honest look at yourself and ask Him to forgive your sins..Ask Him for guidnace and mercy and see what happens..Look for a sign.

I dont think its possible to truly believe in God unless you open your heart and mind to Him first.

I believe the Quran is the Truth as it describes what i experinced and observed on my spiritual journey..

How did you find a god before having a religion to base it on? Or are you meaning that you were a different religion before converting to Islam?

[Abz2000]

Best thing to do is get off mass media including news for a week if possible so that you become more aware of yourself and the reality of your surroundings without anyone else putting a slant on it for you, get into focus mode with a few algebra exercises, then read it without illogical prejudice like a baby takes in knowledge, and then compare it with every other way of life you know about, then come to a conclusion being honest with yourself. The next step if uncertain would be to read a respectable biography of the Prophet (pbuh) from a follower of his way.
One of the most important things to do is to try and focus on what's being explained as if taking it from a very high ranking teacher and whilst trying to avoid the stimulus generalizations and comparisons from movies, secular news pieces, soaps and commercials that flash before the mind and bewitch the victim because a book never is the same when you've already watched the movie, your own projections are stifled and the first gif file your brain finds and flashes and compares with as reference points are from algorithms which are the most familiar feeling or frequently occuring.

Hence the goodly word negates falsehood then confirms truth upon truth.

[Podo]

Best thing to do is get off mass media including news for a week if possible so that you become more aware of yourself and the reality of your surroundings without anyone else putting a slant on it for you, get into focus mode with a few algebra exercises, then read it without illogical prejudice like a baby takes in knowledge, and then compare it with every other way of life you know about, then come to a conclusion being honest with yourself. The next step if uncertain would be to read a respectable biography of the Prophet (pbuh) from a follower of his way.
One of the most important things to do is to try and focus on what's being explained as if taking it from a very high ranking teacher and whilst trying to avoid the stimulus generalizations and comparisons from movies, secular news pieces, soaps and commercials that flash before the mind and bewitch the victim because a book never is the same when you've already watched the movie, your own projections are stifled and the first gif file your brain finds and flashes and compares with as reference points are from algorithms which are the most familiar feeling or frequently occuring.

Hence the goodly word negates falsehood then confirms truth upon truth.

I work as a software developer so getting off of the internet for extended periods of time is difficult, if not impossible. However, I do go camping/hiking often, so I'll bring the Koran with me next time I do that. I usually bring a book of some kind, so it won't change the routine very much.

As for biographies, while I haven't read a full biography of Muhammad, I have read After the Prophet by Lesely Hazelton, as well as The Complete History of Islam, by Karen Armstrong, so I'm not entirely ignorant of the history and events surrounding that time period. Do you have recommendations for a good biography?

[Abz2000]

The sealed nectar

And

Abridged biography of prophet muhammad by abdul wahhab at-tamimi

[beleiver]

How did you find a god before having a religion to base it on? Or are you meaning that you were a different religion before converting to Islam?

To cut a long story short, it was when i was at a low point in my life and one day i tried meditatation..
I reflected on my problems and contemplated Truthfully how i got where i was, I had this realisation that most my woes were my own doing as much as the people i blamed (my ex and her new spouse) i decided to let go and forgive, but who would forgive me? And then i remembered God..
While i was in this moment of clarity i simply asked Him to forgive my sins (which were many) and kind of made a pact to try and be a better more positive person and not think anymore negative thoughts, It felt such a weight was lifted from my soul i literally felt like i was floating..
The following weeks and years my luck changed and i had many coincidences and such which confimed i was on to something, and it went from there..

[Podo]

The sealed nectar

And

Abridged biography of prophet muhammad by abdul wahhab at-tamimi

That's great, thanks! :)

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To cut a long story short, it was when i was at a low point in my life and one day i tried meditatation..
I reflected on my problems and contemplated Truthfully how i got where i was, I had this realisation that most my woes were my own doing as much as the people i blamed (my ex and her new spouse) i decided to let go and forgive, but who would forgive me? And then i remembered God..
While i was in this moment of clarity i simply asked Him to forgive my sins (which were many) and kind of made a pact to try and be a better more positive person and not think anymore negative thoughts, It felt such a weight was lifted from my soul i literally felt like i was floating..
The following weeks and years my luck changed and i had many coincidences and such which confimed i was on to something, and it went from there..

Interesting. So you began meditating and felt a presence? That's intriguing. Were you muslim before, or were you of a different abrahamic denomination? What lead you to this particular religion? How many years have you been practicing?

[Ümit]

Other religions have their stories of miracles too, though.

of course. the origin is the same. God sends his prophets to those people, provides them miracles, they are being guided to the correct path...but after some generations people start to add innovations to it and a new religion is created, complete with its own God, prophet and even miracles.

This is actually something I find intriguing, and a large part of why I decided to post on this forum in the first place. Granted, I've only read the Koran in translation, but the idea that a (supposedly) illiterate trader with no real knowledge of anything other than trading matters could write something such as the Koran is unlikely at best and worth investigating at worst. I'm an amateur linguist (I speak English, German, Mandarin, my Russian and Spanish is alright, and in university I studied Old English, Old Norse, and Middle Egyptian) and my interest in the Koran partially stems from my interest, via Middle Egyptian, of Classical Arabic. From the small parts I've been able to learn enough to understand, the poetry is very advanced. Does this mean it HAS to be divine? No. But, it doesn't rule divinity out, I suppose.

If notice, this is the second issue you mention that is does not HAS to be divine...but very like it is...but you have no alternative.

1st the creation of life that it is very unlikely that it happened on its own...
2nd an illiterate person to reveal a complicated book like the Quren...

Are you waiting for more indications to finally see the miracle?

Something I find troubling, though, is that to "fully understand" the Koran, I've heard from many sources that you need to read this, and read that, and talk to so-and-so, and etc etc. It seems like one needs a degree in Koranic studies to "fully understand" the text. This seems to contradict sure 16:89, though, which is and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything (16:89). Wouldn't a book that is designed to be the clear word of a creator deity logically be easy to understand? Why would the revelations not be clear, with easy to understand examples? Some of the Koran is very straightforward, absolutely, but some isn't. This seems counterintuitive.

I am not asking you to read anything. I do not like that at all. But the Tafsir is something different. It is a guide, a reference book which systematically gives background information on every surah and verse in what period it was revealed, what was happening in the world at that moment, what the verse is referring to and the translation of it.
You see, the Quran can be too direct sometimes. For example it speaks about disobedient people in the past who were turned into apes as a punishment to set an example. (Al-Baqara/ The Cow 2/65-66)
To understand this verse, you need to know who these people were and what they have done wrong. The Tafsir provides you this kind of information.
THe Tafsir does not have a high status for us muslims. it is just a book like every other book. But we use it to gain that little bit of extra information on the sura's we are interested in.
I would recommend the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir...that is commonly accepted among most muslims.

I think that depends on how you determine flaws. Logical contradictions? Maybe not. I can't say that I'm very pleased with the treatment of women, however. Is that a logical flaw? No, but it's still not something that I would consider a positive thing. I think its issues are fewer than many other spiritual paths, for sure, but it isn't flawless.

No, I mean ANY kind of flaw. Of course there are logical flaws (the easiest kind of flaws to prove it's wrong) in other religions..like verses who literally contradict each other.

what you mention as flaws (the treatment of women, I do not think you understand it as good as you think you do.
I do not know what exactly you are referring, but let me give you a few examples:
The thing that a women inherits half of the share that her brother gets. This looks like injustice. Why would men inherit twice as much as women.
This, because of another rule withing the Islam: Men are obligated to take of women. Everything a man owns, he has to share with his wife. His wife owns 50% of the mans posessions.
But the women does not have to share a thing. Everything the wife owns, is 100% hers and she can not be forced to share it with her husband.

another example:
The testimony of the women is worth half of the testimony of the man.
This is because of the characteristics of men and women...We can say that men and women are equal all we want, but physically, we are really not equal.
Divine wisdom has granted women, in general, very sensitive emotions, tender feelings, and a predisposition towards care and love of other members of the family. This makes a woman capable of her natural task of childbearing, nursing, taking care of all the needs of the young child, etc. Based on these emotional characteristics of the woman, she might very well follow her emotional inclinations and swerve from harsh realities due to an emotional involvement in a case. A woman's loving and kind feelings might overcome what she has witnessed, and thus she may distort the story of her witness and testimony. At the same time the biological changes that occur in her body due to menses, pregnancy, child-birth and post-natal conditions reduce the sharpness of her memory and may make her forget the details of the issue.

I can mention a few other examples but please give me your version of the story what you think that is not correct in the treatment of women in Islam.

One more thing on this issue. Muslim men mistreating their wives is not a fault of the religion but more personal or cultural. women walking several feet behind her husband on the street, beating up women just because she forgot something, circumcision of women, are not things that are rules in Islam, but things that grew crooked in a culture. Has nothing to do with religion.

This is a common thread for most religions, unfortunately. It's also the part that I struggle with.

What exactly is it that makes you struggle with this so much? can you please explain?

What happens to those who don't have the option to convert to Islam? For argument's sake, what happens to the people who live in remote areas and never are exposed to this religion?

That is also the part I struggle with at the moment. My personal opinion about those people: (not all muslims agree with me on this)
Children, people with the syndrome of down, and all other people who have not the ability to distinguish between good and wrong, go directly to heaven.
these people did not have a chance in the world to prove themselves so, they have no sins and they go directly to heaven.

People who live in distinct areas, who have no access to true information about Islam, who can not do their own investigation, where the only available information about Islam is on the news on TV or on newspapers (bad manipulated information)...but who still believe in a God...chooses to do good...avoids the bad should also come in the same category of people like children and mentally incapable people.
They never had the chance to learn about Islam...but they still believe in a God and they choose to be good people.

Again, not all Muslims agree with me on this.

Thank you for your continued engagement! I appreciate you taking the time to engage with all my inquiry.

No, I have to thank you for being interested and asking the right questions. I enjoy these kind of discussions with people because this enables me to look at my own religion from a different view. As a born Muslim, you take some things as granted automatically, never really giving a thought about it, but these kind of discussions make you aware of this, and you start to think about things.
Untill so far, these kind of discussions only made my faith grow stronger...the more I investigated, learned and discussed, the more I started to truely understand and love my religion.

I really wanted to write this responce earlier, but I had a long weekend and really wanted to spend some time with my family...which is also very important.

Sorry about that.

[Podo]

f course. the origin is the same. God sends his prophets to those people, provides them miracles, they are being guided to the correct path...but after some generations people start to add innovations to it and a new religion is created, complete with its own God, prophet and even miracles.

So you see all religion as having a single origin, interesting. How do you think about other people who have different religions? Do you think they're bad, or just misguided?

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If notice, this is the second issue you mention that is does not HAS to be divine...but very like it is...but you have no alternative.

1st the creation of life that it is very unlikely that it happened on its own...
2nd an illiterate person to reveal a complicated book like the Quren...

Are you waiting for more indications to finally see the miracle?

Well it's not entirely true that there is no alternative. It's true that the genesis of life on Earth is unlikely on its own, as it is true that an illiterate person could have composed one of the greatest works of poetry that humanity has ever seen. However, as another poster has said, that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. It is entirely possible that life began on its own, as it is possible that the revelations were fabricated and/or the history about Muhammad being illiterate is false. We just don't know, and we don't know one way or another. I'm not discounting the possibility of a divine source for either thing, but "I don't know, therefore god did it" is a pretty weak argument. The "I don't know" aspect is what I find particularly difficult, and why I'm here having this discussion in the first place, and why I find this dialogue so helpful and enlightening.

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I am not asking you to read anything. I do not like that at all. But the Tafsir is something different. It is a guide, a reference book which systematically gives background information on every surah and verse in what period it was revealed, what was happening in the world at that moment, what the verse is referring to and the translation of it.
You see, the Quran can be too direct sometimes. For example it speaks about disobedient people in the past who were turned into apes as a punishment to set an example. (Al-Baqara/ The Cow 2/65-66)
To understand this verse, you need to know who these people were and what they have done wrong. The Tafsir provides you this kind of information.
THe Tafsir does not have a high status for us muslims. it is just a book like every other book. But we use it to gain that little bit of extra information on the sura's we are interested in.
I would recommend the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir...that is commonly accepted among most muslims.

Thank you for your clarification, I'll look into getting one of these books :)

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what you mention as flaws (the treatment of women, I do not think you understand it as good as you think you do.
I do not know what exactly you are referring, but let me give you a few examples:
The thing that a women inherits half of the share that her brother gets. This looks like injustice. Why would men inherit twice as much as women.
This, because of another rule withing the Islam: Men are obligated to take of women. Everything a man owns, he has to share with his wife. His wife owns 50% of the mans posessions.
But the women does not have to share a thing. Everything the wife owns, is 100% hers and she can not be forced to share it with her husband.

another example:
The testimony of the women is worth half of the testimony of the man.
This is because of the characteristics of men and women...We can say that men and women are equal all we want, but physically, we are really not equal.
Divine wisdom has granted women, in general, very sensitive emotions, tender feelings, and a predisposition towards care and love of other members of the family. This makes a woman capable of her natural task of childbearing, nursing, taking care of all the needs of the young child, etc. Based on these emotional characteristics of the woman, she might very well follow her emotional inclinations and swerve from harsh realities due to an emotional involvement in a case. A woman's loving and kind feelings might overcome what she has witnessed, and thus she may distort the story of her witness and testimony. At the same time the biological changes that occur in her body due to menses, pregnancy, child-birth and post-natal conditions reduce the sharpness of her memory and may make her forget the details of the issue.

I can mention a few other examples but please give me your version of the story what you think that is not correct in the treatment of women in Islam.

One more thing on this issue. Muslim men mistreating their wives is not a fault of the religion but more personal or cultural. women walking several feet behind her husband on the street, beating up women just because she forgot something, circumcision of women, are not things that are rules in Islam, but things that grew crooked in a culture. Has nothing to do with religion.

First Example:
That is interesting, I hadn't thought of that before. However, I have a followup question. If a muslim person put in their will that their daughter and son inherited 50% each of his possessions, would you see that as a negative thing?

Second Example:
I had read (In the contextual notes in my Koran) that this was because in the prophet's time, women were largely illiterate, and that the second woman was designed to stop the first from being mislead or confused. I have seen nothing about women being too emotional to stand testimony, though. What sources can you direct me to that reinforces your explanation?

The biggest issue I see with world muslims mistreating their wives is the seeming lack of backlash from the muslim community. Now, I will point out that I only have access to English-language and German-language news sources on the matter, since I don't speak Arabic. But, it seems like there is a widespread lack of condemnation against those who mistreat their wives, daughters, and female work colleagues. I understand that this is more a cultural thing than a religious thing, but I still don't see nearly as much outcry of support for women that I would expect or want from the population in general.

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What exactly is it that makes you struggle with this so much? can you please explain?

Because I'm a scientist. Like an actual scientist, I get paid to do science. Materialism is king; things that cannot be estimated, tested, and proven are not how I've spent my life thinking. I would like to be able to see past the materialistic bent that I have adopted, but it is difficult. I like learning, I like experiencing new things, but religion has been this shadowy box of mystery for me for most of my life. I'm interested in it, but I can't seem to make myself actually believe. Which, as I've mentioned, is why I'm here. I want to talk to others, see what they think, and get ideas for different ways to look at things and process information.

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That is also the part I struggle with at the moment. My personal opinion about those people: (not all muslims agree with me on this)
Children, people with the syndrome of down, and all other people who have not the ability to distinguish between good and wrong, go directly to heaven.
these people did not have a chance in the world to prove themselves so, they have no sins and they go directly to heaven.

People who live in distinct areas, who have no access to true information about Islam, who can not do their own investigation, where the only available information about Islam is on the news on TV or on newspapers (bad manipulated information)...but who still believe in a God...chooses to do good...avoids the bad should also come in the same category of people like children and mentally incapable people.
They never had the chance to learn about Islam...but they still believe in a God and they choose to be good people.

Again, not all Muslims agree with me on this.

Thank you for sharing :)

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I really wanted to write this responce earlier, but I had a long weekend and really wanted to spend some time with my family...which is also very important.

Sorry about that.

I understand! The last weekend was Mother's Day here in Canada, so I totally get it. Thanks again for entertaining my questions and having a discussion, I really appreciate it :)

[azc]

@Podo :

The last weekend was Mother's Day here in Canada

We don't believe in formality, rather, Islam injuncts us to be obedient to our parents literally.

Abu Hurairah (R.A.) narrates that a person asked the Prophet Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam "Who has the greatest claim on me with regard to service and kind treatment?" The Prophet replied, "Your mother, and again your mother, and once again your mother. After her, is the claim of your father, then that of your near relations, and then of the relations next to them."

religion has been this shadowy box of mystery for me for most of my life. I'm interested in it, but I can't seem to make myself actually believe.

“…Are you pleased with the life of this world rather than the hereafter ? But little is the enjoyment of the life of this world as compared with the Hereafter” (Quran, Al-Tawbah: 38)


“Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire – of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.” [Quran, 3: 14]

The biggest issue I see with world muslims mistreating their wives is the seeming lack of backlash from the muslim community.

No, this is a false propaganda.

Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“The most perfect of the believers in faith is the one who is best in attitude, and the best of you is the one who is best in attitude towards his womenfolk.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1162)

If a muslim person put in their will that their daughter and son inherited 50% each of his possessions, would you see that as a negative thing?

Islam gives laws of inheritance. All other religions are lacking in it.

Plz see this link:

http://inheritance.ilmsummit.org/pro...nce/rules.aspx

So you see all religion as having a single origin, interesting. How do you think about other people who have different religions? Do you think they're bad, or just misguided?

Allah the All-Mighty Says (what means): "This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”[Quran 5:3]

The Quran says (what means):"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers.”[Quran 3:85]

[Ümit]

So you see all religion as having a single origin, interesting. How do you think about other people who have different religions? Do you think they're bad, or just misguided?

yes, all religion have the same origin...which makes sense...Every prophet came to guide us to the one and the same God...everytime people wandered off the right path and created a new religion.
about people of different religions:
If they have no knowledge about islam and they never had the opportunity or possibility to study it...but they still somehow believe in a God, then they can be considered muslims.
If they have knowledge about Islam but they just reject it, then they are misguided.
If they reject Islam and they see Muslims as their enemy, they are misguided and bad.

Well it's not entirely true that there is no alternative. It's true that the genesis of life on Earth is unlikely on its own, as it is true that an illiterate person could have composed one of the greatest works of poetry that humanity has ever seen. However, as another poster has said, that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. It is entirely possible that life began on its own, as it is possible that the revelations were fabricated and/or the history about Muhammad being illiterate is false. We just don't know, and we don't know one way or another. I'm not discounting the possibility of a divine source for either thing, but "I don't know, therefore god did it" is a pretty weak argument. The "I don't know" aspect is what I find particularly difficult, and why I'm here having this discussion in the first place, and why I find this dialogue so helpful and enlightening.

we discussed in our former posts that the chance of forming a body on its own is astronomically small...the time of 14 billion years might not even be long enough for such an event...and that the chance of getting struck by a giant meteor and start all over in that timeframe is much higher.

then we had the issue that a body forming on its own, how small the chance is, still no explanation how that body somehow can be alive.

So, how can you see this as a valid alternative?

you are making one big mistake: I never use the argument "I don't know, therefore god did it"
because it is not the one or the other. "I don't know, therefore God did it" is a weak argument...it can be used as an answer to any question...but that does not mean it is a useful answer...just like the answer to the question "2 + 3 = ?" can be "a number".
Of course it is a number...but which number?

Of course God did it, but how did he do that?

Remember, sciense and religion do not contradict each other.

Thank you for your clarification, I'll look into getting one of these books :)

you can also find them as a free pdf online or as an application. perhaps easier because you can use the search function which makes it easier.

First Example:
That is interesting, I hadn't thought of that before. However, I have a followup question. If a muslim person put in their will that their daughter and son inherited 50% each of his possessions, would you see that as a negative thing?

It depends. If they live in the western world, then that would be OK.
If they live in a country with sharia laws, that would be a negative thing...because the brother has to share his property with his wife if he is married. this means that the sister got a much bigger share then her brother.

Second Example:
I had read (In the contextual notes in my Koran) that this was because in the prophet's time, women were largely illiterate, and that the second woman was designed to stop the first from being mislead or confused. I have seen nothing about women being too emotional to stand testimony, though. What sources can you direct me to that reinforces your explanation?

Islam is an universal religion. Islam never forbade women to have an education or to work...keeping women illiterate was always a cultural issue. wouldn't it be injustice to say that women need each other in testimonies because they are illiterate? so, this answer makes no sense.

If you are looking for verses in the quran saying that women are emotional...you will not find anything...The quran is not a science book.
It just states that women need each other for testimony, period....and if you want to know the wisdom behind it, then you have to investigate.
sometimes this question is already asked to our prophet and he gave an answer...if so, you can find it in the hadeeth...if not, then the reason is unknown and needs to be investigated.

And indeed, we all know that women are different then men. they are more emotional...they are more sensitive to hormone changes...they have more massive hormone changes then men.

The biggest issue I see with world muslims mistreating their wives is the seeming lack of backlash from the muslim community. Now, I will point out that I only have access to English-language and German-language news sources on the matter, since I don't speak Arabic. But, it seems like there is a widespread lack of condemnation against those who mistreat their wives, daughters, and female work colleagues. I understand that this is more a cultural thing than a religious thing, but I still don't see nearly as much outcry of support for women that I would expect or want from the population in general.

that might be true unfortunately...but still it is not a religious issue. it is cultural. Islam commands to treat your wife in your best way...
again, I agree with you that you see that kind of things a lot in the muslim world...but it is wrong to attribute that to Islam.

Because I'm a scientist. Like an actual scientist, I get paid to do science. Materialism is king; things that cannot be estimated, tested, and proven are not how I've spent my life thinking. I would like to be able to see past the materialistic bent that I have adopted, but it is difficult. I like learning, I like experiencing new things, but religion has been this shadowy box of mystery for me for most of my life. I'm interested in it, but I can't seem to make myself actually believe. Which, as I've mentioned, is why I'm here. I want to talk to others, see what they think, and get ideas for different ways to look at things and process information.

I am a scientist too. maybe not that much like you, because I only have a Bachelor of Science degree...(right now I am work as the Lead Engineer Radiography) So, I am also a technical person. I also always searched for logical explanations ans was not satisfied with answers like "because God has ordered that"...but that shadowy box you are describing stays unreachable for science...so for science it is a black box...and scientist know how to handle black boxes...we cannot look into it...but we can define the input, observe the output and try to describe it's characteristics.

[Abz2000]

I had read (In the contextual notes in my Koran) that this was because in the prophet's time, women were largely illiterate, and that the second woman was designed to stop the first from being mislead or confused. I have seen nothing about women being too emotional to stand testimony, though. What sources can you direct me to that reinforces your explanation?

As a scientist, you are probably aware that the brains of men and women are mapped and networked in different ways - the fact that men and women often find it difficult to understand each other's reasonings and point of view, and why sacrifice of personal opinions is sometimes the norm simply for the sake of cohesion. This is evidenced by the fact that iq tests have had to be revised to include what women are better at in order to ensure women don't keep appearing to fall short.

Women are fitted with a natural emotional bias that often puts what they consider as their "own" above all other things - even if it means being selfish - and this is an important trait in child rearing. However - when it comes to social and international dealings and interactions this trait can cause a lot of resentment since society works a little more on the basis of mutual advancement in that many millions of families are involved.

The fact that a man loses face and honour when lying as it indicates weakness and or criminality - whereas a woman can usually lie and then just weep and curse when caught out, and then even be seen as a victim due to emotional leniency is also something to consider.

None of this necessarily means that women are evil (although they are usually more easily convinced by breakable logic than men are, and are less likely to think too far into the future when the present is a mess and needs to be at least presentable - and we are informed that more of them will be seduced by dajjal's deceptions and material splendour than will men), but it does show that a trusted male guardian and ultimate decision maker (who evaluates and judges by truth and justice) keeps humanity advancing. A nation divided cannot stand for long - since he/she who doesn't gather with truth and justice - scatters abroad.
The deceptions and guardianship role that criminal governments and institutions have been projecting onto women recently are an indicator that the secular machine knows the weak spot and is targeting that as it's method of attempting to break down society and gaining total control over it. This is done by using easily collapsible short term false logic and making deception and treachery appear like david's stone against men

Men are usually more blunt in showing hate or dislike and willing to fight and die in a non-ideal or unacceptable situation than women who are (needfully) more short term survival geared and very easily adapt to the new boss even when violated or abused - both evaluate on a different level - an intimate wink or a sharp stare during testimony usually works easier on women who see the need to appease than on men since a woman does not need to wield tools like a man in order to get to the next stage but needs to wield men like tools - this is a recipe for biased decision-making.

Being the physically weaker and more dependent half also plays a part in this, therefore blame is to naturally be measured with a little leniency.
I don't know if some people are hating on me for my piece of mind but thats what i sincerely believe as being true regardless of what the usurious banker controlled mass media drills into the brains of the masses - i know why they do it, obviously, the physical tasks usually required of men are being borne by machines - hence economical equations of criminals tend to lean towards the easier to control and subdue part - even though humanity dies in the process.

[Podo]

that might be true unfortunately...but still it is not a religious issue. it is cultural. Islam commands to treat your wife in your best way...
again, I agree with you that you see that kind of things a lot in the muslim world...but it is wrong to attribute that to Islam.

This is actually very refreshing to hear, to be honest. I agree fully that it is more of a cultural thing, but far too often muslims (the ones that I've encountered, anyway) deny that mistreatment happens at all. The simple fact that you acknowledge it and condemn it is very reassuring.

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I am a scientist too. maybe not that much like you, because I only have a Bachelor of Science degree...(right now I am work as the Lead Engineer Radiography) So, I am also a technical person. I also always searched for logical explanations ans was not satisfied with answers like "because God has ordered that"...but that shadowy box you are describing stays unreachable for science...so for science it is a black box...and scientist know how to handle black boxes...we cannot look into it...but we can define the input, observe the output and try to describe it's characteristics.

This is the single most compelling thought I have read on the whole of these boards so far. So you see the black box of religion as something that you can isolate the input to, and therefore observe the output? Input in this case being prayers and submission, and the output being improvement of life? Do I understand you correctly?

[Ümit]

This is the single most compelling thought I have read on the whole of these boards so far. So you see the black box of religion as something that you can isolate the input to, and therefore observe the output? Input in this case being prayers and submission, and the output being improvement of life? Do I understand you correctly?

Not completely isolate of course but yes...something like that.

Input can be:
prayers, submission to God, Going with the idea that you are never alone, that everything has a purpose and happens for a reason, knowing everything you experience is a part of you undergoing a test, etc.

Output can be:
improvement of life like: (of course your ultimate goal is not the improvement of life, but the improvement of life in thehereafter)
suddenly having an important purpose in your life...you are not a goalless being anymore.
never feeling alone
always having a witness
much more calm in life...because if injustice has been done to you, and you can not change that...you know in thehereafter you will get justice after all.
you do not get upset as quickly because of this...you know people will eventually will get what they deserve.
you are much more aware with your actions...you respect others much more and you put effort in not to harm anyone.
increased patience and being friendly and helpfull.
You trust God that every rule in the Quran is logical...so you start investigating it and every confirmation strengthens your faith.
Having your knowledge improved not only by science, but also with wisdom from the Quran.
etc.
etc.

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I would advise you...just try it...you will have nothing to lose...you do not have to change your lifestyle...you do not have to give up anything...
but you can gain so much more in life. if it does not work, you can just forget about it.

you won't regret it. trust me. Let God enter your heart.

[Ümit]

This is actually very refreshing to hear, to be honest. I agree fully that it is more of a cultural thing, but far too often muslims (the ones that I've encountered, anyway) deny that mistreatment happens at all. The simple fact that you acknowledge it and condemn it is very reassuring.

Sorry, I totally forgot about this part of your post. The mistreatment of women is common among muslims...because too many muslims do not truely understand their religion. Quran says you can beat up your wife...so they beat up their wife for every fart she makes...they do not understand that this is absolutely the last measure you can take as a husband if all other methods have failed. you see women walking several feet behind their husbands for some crooked reason...I never understand why, but it might be some misinterpretement of a rule in the Quran.

[azc]

Sorry, I totally forgot about this part of your post. The mistreatment of women is common among muslims ...because too many muslims do not truely understand their religion. Quran says you can beat up your wife ...so they beat up their wife for every fart she makes...they do not understand that this is absolutely the last measure you can take as a husband if all other methods have failed. you see women walking several feet behind their husbands for some crooked reason...I never understand why, but it might be some misinterpretement of a rule in the Quran.

Will you prove the 'bold parts' of your post...

[Ümit]

Will you prove the 'bold parts' of your post...

The famous verse about beating your wife is 4:34.
The mistreatment of women is observable on the streets.

[greenhill]

Greetings.

How civil and interesting this post has been. Fairly diverse range and thought process.

The Creator, God exists in the mind as it cannot be proven scientifically. So it needs a thought process.

The pill (in my humblest opinion) that is hardest to swallow is to humble oneself and surrender to His Will. On top of that, one also needs to be patient. What? We're insignificant slaves? Essentially, it's our pride that gets in the way.

So, the first message of the Quran to come down, a message proclaimed to be for all of mankind is 'iqra!' and it was said 3 times before the verse was completed with the sentences. Recite or Read, the Quran was revealed with the Word from the Creator telling mankind to 'read!'.

At the same time it can be said to it was to introduce Himself to our prophet for him to recite in His name.

The Quran also goes on asking us many occasions to use our reason, to ponder, consider and other suggestions for us think about the message.

But, Satan has a very prominent role to play to mislead people from the true path. Hence, the same message from the Single source, repeatedly sent via prophets and messengers eventually became corrupted and over generations becoming splinter or modified religions as it was his (Satan's) solemn oath to deviate people from finding the truth. He has done an excellent job. Misleading vast majority and as a result, there are Muslims who do not necessarily reflect Islam. Unfortunately, that what is highlighted by the media has probably had an effect as I often hear people studying all other Books and if they ever get to the Quran, it would literally be because they have run out of other Books. So well have the controlling society 'isolated' the Quran from being a choice.


There's much I want to say but time does not permit.

But before I go, id like to suggest you to take a look at Jeffrey Lang 'the purpose of life' on YouTube.


:peace:

[azc]

The famous verse about beating your wife is 4:34.
The mistreatment of women is observable on the streets.

@Podo

Let us take a look at Surah An-Nisa, Ayah 34:

Men are “qawwamuna” over women, because God has given some more than others, and because they support them from their means, and the righteous women are the truly devout ones [ God fearing ] , who guard in their husbands absence the intimacy which God has ordained to be guarded.
And as for those women whose “nushuz” you have reason to fear, remind them [ of God and His teachings ] ;

then leave them alone in bed;

then [ as a last resort ] “hit” them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great ! [ Surah 4:34 ]

The hadith in Muslim’s Sahih states that the Prophet s.a.w. in his Farewell Pilgrimage said:

Lo ! My last recommendation to you is that you should treat women well. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that – except if they commit a manifest indecency [fahisha mubina = ranging from immorality to adultery]. If they do, then refuse to share their beds and hit them without indecent violence [fadribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrih]. Then, if they desist, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over you is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision. you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over you is that you treat them excellently in their garbhh
Our Prophet s.a.w uses the expression “fahisa mubina” as the equivalent of “nushuz” . The word “nushuz” in this verse [ Surah 4:34 ] therefor refers to “ fahisa mubina”, which refers to manifest obscenity. The word “nushuz” used in reference to the wife therefor doesn’t mean disobedience or a case of simple disagreement. It means lewd acts, immoral behaviour that could lead to adultery.

Prophet himself defined the permissible form of hitting in the Farewell

My last recommendation to you is that you should treat women well. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that – “except if they commit a manifest indecency” [ fahisha mubina ]. If they do, then refuse to share their beds and hit them “without indecent violence”[ fadribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrih ].

Qatada said as narrated by al-Tabari in his tafsir: “Ghayr mubarrih” means ghayr sha’in = not disgraceful/ outrageous/ obscene/ indecent [hitting].” `

Ata’ said: “I asked Ibn `Abbas ra: ‘What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih?’ He replied: ‘[With] the siwak [toothbrush] and the like”.
http://www.nour-dv.org.uk/tafseer-su...-wife-beating/

[Aaqib]

Sorry, I totally forgot about this part of your post. The mistreatment of women is common among muslims...because too many muslims do not truely understand their religion. Quran says you can beat up your wife...so they beat up their wife for every fart she makes...they do not understand that this is absolutely the last measure you can take as a husband if all other methods have failed. you see women walking several feet behind their husbands for some crooked reason...I never understand why, but it might be some misinterpretement of a rule in the Quran.

Sister, don't make ridiculous claims such as the Quran saying that a husband can beat up their wife. How could a sound, logical person make a claim like this??

[Ümit]

Sister, don't make ridiculous claims such as the Quran saying that a husband can beat up their wife. How could a sound, logical person make a claim like this??

İ think you did not follow this thread at all...because if you did, you would not be reacting like that.

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@Podo
You see podo...verse 3:34 is also a perfect example of a verse which can be easily interpreted without further investigation. This is a verse where people have been asking quetions about it to our prophet during his life...so you can find hadeeth about this issue.
İn the Quran it looks like İslam gives men permission to beat up their wives...but if you look into the tafsir or hadeeth...you will find out what is really meant with this verse.

[Good brother]

From the small parts I've been able to learn enough to understand, the poetry is very advanced. Does this mean it HAS to be divine? No. But, it doesn't rule divinity out, I suppose.

The people of Quraish endorsed a proposal and requested Abu Talib to talk to the Prophet very softly and he begged him to abandon his affair. To this suggestion the Prophet firmly replied:

"0 my uncle, if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand to cause me to renounce my task, verily I would not desist therefrom until Allah made manifest His cause or I perished in the attempt."​

Then they chose Utbah, the old and wise aristocrat of the Quraysh, to undertake that task. ‘He came closer to Muhammad [pbuh] and addressed him in the following words:

We have seen no other man of Arabia, who has brought so great a calamity to a nation, as you have done. You have outraged our gods and religion and taxed our forefathers and wise men with impiety and error and created strife amongst us. You have left no stone unturned to estrange the relations with us. If you are doing all this with a view to getting wealth, we will join together to give you greater riches than any Quraishite has possessed. If ambition moves you, we will make you our chief. If you desire kingship we will readily offer you that. If you are under the power of an evil spirit which seems to haunt and dominate you so that you cannot shake off its yoke, then we shall call in skilful physicians to cure you.​

"Have you said all?" asked Muhammad [pbuh]; and then hearing that all had been said, he spoke forth, and started to recite the first 5 ayat of this surah:




The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] went on reciting the surah while ‘Utbah sitting and listening attentively with his hand behind his back to support him. When the Messenger reached the verse that required prostration, he immediately prostrated himself. After that, he turned to ‘Utbah saying:
"Well Abu Al-Waleed! You have heard my reply, you are now free to do whatever you please." ‘Utbah then retired to his company to apprise them of the Prophet’s attitude. When his compatriots saw him, they swore that he had returned to them with a countenance unlike the one he had before meeting the Prophet [pbuh] . He immediately communicated to them the details of the talk he gave and the reply he received, and appended saying:
"I have never heard words similar to those ones he recited. They definitely relate neither to poetry nor to witchcraft nor do they derive from soothsaying. O people of Quraish! I request you to heed my advice and grant the man full freedom to pursue his goals, in which case you could safely detach yourselves from him. I swear that his words bear a supreme Message. Should the other Arabs rid you of him, they will then spare you the trouble, on the other hand if he accedes to power over the Arabs, then you will bask in his kingship and share him his might." These words of course fell on deaf ears, and did not appeal to the infidels, who jeered at ‘Utbah and claimed that the Prophet [pbuh] had bewitched him. (Arraheeq Almakhtoom)

The point is: Quran isn't just another piece of poetry; even top elite of Meccan polytheists acknowledged that.

[ChosenTCO]

Allow me to drop my two cents in here. I will try to be brief ... "try"

Firstly: Im sorry to burst your bubble, but if your looking for definitive, indisputable, and quantifiable proof of God, then im sorry but you most probably wont find anything like that here (at least non that i know of).

Thing is ... you have to understand that this dunya's (world) sole purpose is to test the majority of us in our faith which is based on lack of absolute knowledge. What i mean by this is that there is no way to know for certain whether or not God exists except after death (that is somewhat hinted at even in the Quran where god refers to death as Yakeen which translates to certainty). Because, if you think about it, if there was definitive proof, say a miracle where no one can deny that this can only be from God, then what element of faith is there to test when it is superseded with absolute knowledge?

Note: there are few people who where tested in other things such as patience or arrogance.

1. Prophet was tested for his patience since he had absolute certainty of God (meaning he actually was able to establish God's presence not only through his belief).
   
2. Iblis (the father/leader of all current devils) was tested in his pride .

Secondly: I wanted to talk about why i personally believe islam to be the one true religion, but before i do, id like to ask you a question first.

What would it take for you to believe in a supernatural deity or a God? What would it take for you to actually jump and take that leap of faith and admit that the idea of a God being the creator of the universe is more reassuring to you than it being out of coincidence? What would it take for you to make that leap of faith?

[Ümit]

Allow me to drop my two cents in here. I will try to be brief ... "try"

Firstly: Im sorry to burst your bubble, but if your looking for definitive, indisputable, and quantifiable proof of God, then im sorry but you most probably wont find anything like that here (at least non that i know of).

Thing is ... you have to understand that this dunya's (world) sole purpose is to test the majority of us in our faith which is based on lack of absolute knowledge. What i mean by this is that there is no way to know for certain whether or not God exists except after death (that is somewhat hinted at even in the Quran where god refers to death as Yakeen which translates to certainty). Because, if you think about it, if there was definitive proof, say a miracle where no one can deny that this can only be from God, then what element of faith is there to test when it is superseded with absolute knowledge?

Note: there are few people who where tested in other things such as patience or arrogance.

1. Prophet was tested for his patience since he had absolute certainty of God (meaning he actually was able to establish God's presence not only through his belief).
   
2. Iblis (the father/leader of all current devils) was tested in his pride .

Secondly: I wanted to talk about why i personally believe islam to be the one true religion, but before i do, id like to ask you a question first.

What would it take for you to believe in a supernatural deity or a God? What would it take for you to actually jump and take that leap of faith and admit that the idea of a God being the creator of the universe is more reassuring to you than it being out of coincidence? What would it take for you to make that leap of faith?

in podo's defence:
There is no bubble to burst. Podo legitimally askes how we can be sure that God exists and why out of all other religions would Islam be the true one...other religions also claim they are the true religion.
This is a normal reaction from someone who is foreign to faith and who used to look for logical answers.
at least he tries to learn our viewpoint by asking.

For him the logical world is solid ground, and he does not know yet that Islam is also solid...so he is not ready for his leap yet.
Our job is to provide him our viewpoint in a way he can understand so that the doubts in his way to God can be wiped away.
He needs to know that Islam is also solid, and he needs to know that he can gain a lot by believing in God.

[ZeeshanParvez]

The Qur'aan is true because it is from Allaah.

That is the answer to the question.

However, I think the question the OP meant to ask was how do we know the Qur'aan is true.

The Qur'aan consists of over 6000 Verses. When you live your life as a Muslim, you get to see all the Verses which apply to this life come true before your very eyes.

There are Verses which provide you solutions to problems you face in this world. When you apply those Verses you see the promised conclusions.

The same is the case with the Sunnah.

When you see time after time, again and again, how the Verses of the Qur'aan come true before your eyes and what is promised if you follow the guidance therein, you come to realize that everything it tells you about the next world will also come true.

Finally, for a non-Muslim looking into Islam, if you are sincere, I would recommend that you make dua (supplication).

Ask God to guide you. Ask Him to show you if Islaam is true or not. If you are an atheist then sincerely supplicate by saying if You truly exist guide me towards You, O God.

Your prayer, without a doubt, will be answered if you honestly want the truth.

If, however, you have already convinced yourself that the truth is that God does not exist and Islam is not a true Religion, then you are just wasting time. If you are not open to the truthfulness of Islam, then you cannot expect much. You might get lucky and have good destiny in your favor and convert at a later point in life, but other than that you are not about to accept Islam.

Finally, as with anything in life, you cannot draw conclusions. As a matter of fact, it is a the scientific process to conduct an experiment and then induce and deduce the results.

You cannot have answers to you questions about Islam until you live it, follow what the Qur'aan and Sunnah say, and then see if they are truthful or not.

I can tell you they are but that does not mean much to you because you have not felt and lived it like I have.

[Abz2000]

Would like to add what i believe will help in clarification to this enlightening post - may Allah reward those who sincerely strive to make the true and just way of life prevalent

The Qur'aan is true because it is from Allaah.

And is the most pristine and recent instruction and guide from Him.

That is the answer to the question.

However, I think the question the OP meant to ask was how do we know the Qur'aan is true.

"Why do we believe with certainty that the Quran is true" is probably more scientifically palatable.

The Qur'aan consists of over 6000 Verses. When you live your life as a Muslim, you get to see all the Verses which apply to this life come true before your very eyes.

There are Verses which provide you solutions to problems you face in this world. When you apply those Verses you see the promised conclusions.

The same is the case with the Sunnah.

When you see time after time, again and again, how the Verses of the Qur'aan come true before your eyes and what is promised if you follow the guidance therein, you come to realize that everything it tells you about the next world will also come true.

Finally, for a non-Muslim looking into Islam, if you are sincere, I would recommend that you make dua (supplication).

Ask God to guide you. Ask Him to show you if Islaam is true or not. If you are an atheist then sincerely supplicate by saying if You truly exist guide me towards You, O God.

Your prayer, without a doubt, will be answered if you honestly want the truth.

....

Your prayer, without a doubt, will be answered if you honestly want and sincerely seek the truth.

If, however, you have already convinced yourself that the truth is that God does not exist and Islam is not a true Religion, then you are just wasting time.

If, however, you have already convinced yourself that the truth is that God does not exist and Islam is not a true Religion, then you are making a grave mistake, you will inevitably err from the straight path and commit injustice to yourself and to others, and will land yourself in unbearable punishment after God's Promised Just Judgement.
If you seek and follow the truth with sincerity, you will inevitably come to the logical conclusion that Islam is the most true and just path, and if you sincerely follow the most true and just path available to you, you will certainly have an easy judgement and be rewarded with a reward that will make you happier and richer than the happiest and richest person on planet earth.

If you are not open to the truthfulness of Islam, then you cannot expect much. You might get lucky and have good destiny in your favor and convert at a later point in life, but other than that you are not about to accept Islam.

Finally, as with anything in life, you cannot draw conclusions. As a matter of fact, it is a the scientific process to conduct an experiment and then induce and deduce the results.

You can and sometimes must accept a notion or claim in order to move forward with a basis in life, and you can also come to believe with certainty in a claim or notion, but i personallly believe that some things are certain beyond doubt such as - the fact that i have a brain in my head even though i can't directly see it - and the existence and oneness of a law setting creator of the universe - and this is logically demonstrable through elimination of fallacies.

You cannot have answers to your questions about Islam until you live it, follow what the Qur'aan and Sunnah say, and then see if they are truthful or not. I can tell you they are but that does not mean much to you because you have not felt and lived it like I have

You cannot have complete answers to many of your questions about Islam until you live it, follow what the Qur'aan and Sunnah say, and then see if they are truthful or not just as you can't have a complete answer as to how Vimto tastes until you taste it, or what passing or failing an exam feels like until you pass or fail it, or what absolute zero feels like uness you feel it (but you will refuse to feel it because you believe/believe with certainty that it will harm you) or as to how death or ressurection feel until you experience them - you can however use your intellect and empathetic and sympathetic brain feelies to get a basic idea of what it's most likely like so that you force yourself to sacrifice the unlawful drugs and debaucheries and some lawful entertainment in order to study so as to not fail the final exam and so as not to end up -not simply wiping the supermarket floor- but landing in eternal damnation.
I assure you, i inform you with certainty beyond doubt that you will die even if you don't think or don't want to believe that it's true. Your logical brain tells you certain things are certain, but i'm also telling you that there will be no conclusion of your eternal story - even after death.
It would be wise of you to sit down (or walk or pace about if you prefer) and have a long and deep think about it.

Much of this advice is to myself also since the human's nature pulls him/her to err at least sometimes - and teaching is re-study and revision.

[Periwinkle18]

I find the Quran to be true because what is says is the truth the scientific facts how a child is born etc all of this told 1400 years ago and science discovered things later on. When you read the Quran and understand it every single thing written is just beneficial for us it acts like a guide I duno its just so very powerful. Every single time you read there's something new that you learn. I don't really know how to explain but it certainly is the truth every single thing written just turns out to be true..

[AbuAsiyah]

My purpose for this thread is to ask you all, in your own words, why you consider the narrative in the Koran to be the accurate and unaltered word of god,,,My hang-up, however, is the belief aspect. I can (and do) respect the Koran as a philosophical text, a historical text, and even as a moral treatise. My issue is the last leap to actual belief in a deity. I understand that the pillars of Islam require the belief that there is no god but god, and that Muhammad was his last messenger, but the idea of believing in something that can't be established as observably true is difficult for me, especially since I have never put much thought or care into the existence of deities one way or another.

3 things:

1. Allah's existence
2. The Prophet Muhammed's (Peace Be Upon Him) legitimacy as a Prophet of God
3. The Quran's unalterability (as if that's a word)


1. The existence of the Creator is proven by the existence of the creation: This is easily observable in the meticulous, extreme precision and detail that is apparent in all that exists. This level of organization, precision, and symmetry that we can observe in every facet of science and cannot be replicated in even the most advanced of man-made technology is clear indisputable proof of the One who Fashioned the Universe and gave it its grandeur. Nothing man-made can come about haphazardly or by chance. Human beings and the rest of "creation" are far more advanced than even the most sophisticated man-made technology.

I do not agree with my brothers and sisters here who say that there is no proof of Allah's existence and that you just have to believe. Iman (Faith) in Islam is believing with conviction in the clear signs that are right in front of your face and there is nothing that is clearer in this Universe than the existence of Allah. Two of the Names of Allah are ath-Thahir (The Apparent) and al-Batin (The Hidden). Of course, none of us can see Allah outright but His existence, power, might, wisdom, and greatness are evident in everything that we can observe all around us.

2. Proof of Muhammed's Prophethood (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) is established by his character. If he were not a Prophet, there are only 3 other possibilities that could exist, none of which stand to reason:

a)--And said, "Is it one human being among us that we should follow? Indeed, we would then be in error and madness. Has the message been sent down upon him from among us? Rather, he is an insolent liar." They will know tomorrow who is the insolent liar. (al-Qamar: 25-26)

The innumerable examples of his sincerity and truthfulness disprove any thought or statement that Muhammed :saws1: was untruthful or a liar. For 40 years in Makkah, he had a reputable standing in society. He was known as being trustworthy. He was married to a very wealthy businesswoman. He had daughters and a good life. He put all of this on the line for the sake of his message and after 13 years of preaching he left Makkah as a fugitive. To keep things brief I will list a number of points which proves that he was one of the most truthful and sincere of people:

*As I said, his reputation was trustworthiness from the leaders of Makkah for 40 years before he became a Prophet. And then, after 40 years he :saws1: is going to come with the greatest hoax of human history? I don't think so.
*The story of the dispute of the leaders of Quraish as to who would put the black stone into the Kabbah. The matter almost led to bloodshed. The leaders agreed to let Muhammed (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) arbitrate the matter which he did brilliantly.
*The story of Abu Sufyan when he went to talk to Heraculius about Muhammed (May Allah's Peace and Blessings be Upon him). Even though he was an enemy to Muhammed :saws1: he was forced to say nothing but good things about him.
*The complete sacrifice that he made for his message. This proves his sincerity. "Good brother" gave an excellent example of this when the leaders offered him a position of authority, wealth, and women if he gave up his call and he refused.
*When he died, he left almost nothing behind in terms of wealth. Why would he lie when there was nothing for him to gain from it in the worldly sense?

And many more examples besides these which I have not included due to brevity. All of these things (and more) prove that he (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) was no liar.

b)--"Say, "I only advise you of one [thing] - that you stand for Allah , [seeking truth] in pairs and individually, and then give thought." There is not in your companion any madness. He is only a warner to you before a severe punishment." (Saba: 46)

The exceptional intelligence, forsight, wisdom and understanding of the Prophet (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) are all proof against any defects in the mental clarity and coherence of this wise and noble man :saws1:. He :saws1: was an extremely successful father, statesman, teacher, leader, judge, arbiter, friend, husband, strategist, businessman/trader, and more.
The Prophet :saws1: united the war-mongering tribes of Arabia under one banner, established a charity/welfare system, set up educational institutions for learning, pragmatically abolished slavery gradually, basically established an empire from scratch. None of these things could have been accomplished except by a man with a sound mind.

c)--And indeed, for you is a reward uninterrupted. And indeed, you are of a great moral character. So you will see and they will see which of you is the afflicted [by a devil]. (al-Qalam: 4-6)

"And the devils have not brought the revelation down. It is not allowable for them, nor would they be able. Indeed they, from [its] hearing, are removed. So do not invoke with Allah another deity and [thus] be among the punished." (Ash-Shuara: 210-213)

And this is actually an accusation that is made by some of the Jews and Christians. So what I want to know is: what's the devil's grand master plan here? Before Muhammed (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) Arabia was steeped in darkness. Drinking, gambling, fornication and adultery were all widespread norms in the society. It was a custom for the Arabs to bury their daughters alive out of fear of poverty. Tribal warfare was ongoing and normal and could easily arise out of some kind of stupid dispute. Highway robbery and gangs who would steal, kill and plunder were all normal threats that one would have to beware of. Swindling and cheating in business were also problems. Arabia was in Shaitan's (may Allah Curse him) back pocket.

Why, then, would he go out of his way to inspire a man to abolish all of the above-mentioned vices, to put an end to idol-worship, the killing of baby daughters, fornication and adultery, the killing and blood shedding of the tribes, to establish prayer and the giving of charity, to teach that one should give proper respect to one's parents as well as all the other moral teachings?

This is not the work of the devil (may Allah Curse Him) this is not something that befits him. None of these things that Muhammed (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) accomplished are things that would please the devil but on the contrary would grieve him.

If you can think of a forth possibility let me know.

What also proves his prophethood (Salalahu 'Alaihi wa Salaam) is the challenge. This was also well-mentioned by "Good brother". Allah in the beginning challenged the Arabs to bring a Quran like it if they think that Muhammed wasn't truthful. They couldn't do it. Then Allah made the challenge easier and told them just to bring 10 surahs (chapters) like it. They still couldn't do it. Then Allah made it even easier and said to bring just one surah like it and they can organize whomever they want for the task. The smallest surah in the Quran is just 3 verses long. 3 verses long and they still were unable to do it. The Arabs were masters of Arabic. If the Prophet :saws1: were making this up, then the Arabs could have easily made one up like it, but they didn't because they couldn't.

3. The Preservation of the Quran
The Prophet :saws1: taught his companions the Quran. Many of them memorized it by heart and taught it to others successfully throughout the centuries until today where we still have thousands if not millions of Muslims who have the entire Quran memorized by heart. There are even many children in the Muslim world who have the entire Quran memorized and could pick out a chapter if you asked them to.

A Muslim who has memorized the entire Quran is called a "Hafidth" which means "preserver". The one who has memorized the Quran is literally one who preserves it. This is the main method of how the Quran was and is preserved. If you were to go to a masjid (and any one of the brothers or even sisters can testify to this) and observe the Muslims when they pray: if the Imam (the one leading the prayer) were to make an unintentional mistake and change so much as a letter from the Book of Allah (again unintentionally) you will find one of the common Muslims would immediately correct him in the prayer. If someone were to try and change anything from the Quran, they would be found out immediately. In fact, if every single copy, both printed and digital, of the Quran were to be destroyed (which of course is impossible) we the Muslims could easily compile the Quran again word-for-word and letter-for-letter within a matter of hours. And it could be done independently from different parts of the Muslim world (meaning one from Saudi Arabia, one from Egypt, one from Malaysia, and so on). This is proof that the Quran we have toady is the same exact Quran that Muhammed :saws1: taught to his noble companions (RadiaAllahu 'Anhum).

These are just some quick points that I hope can be of use in answering your queries. I tried to keep it brief on purpose. If you wish for me to elaborate on any one of the points (including the point of the existence of the Creator), then I would be more than happy to do so.

Again, I do not agree with my Brothers and Sisters who are saying that there is no proof for our beliefs, you just have to believe. This is a Christian concept. Allah says that He Sent Messengers with signs so that people could reflect on those signs and then believe and follow the Truth with certainty. These signs are not only the specific miracles that the Prophets (May Allah Peace and Blessings Be upon them all) showed to their respective peoples but also the clear signs that are all around us to this day (if only we would reflect) and that the vast majority of mankind is taking for granted.

"And We have made the night and day two signs, and We erased the sign of the night and made the sign of the day visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and may know the number of years and the account [of time]. And everything We have set out in detail." (al-Isra: 12)

"...And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless." (Yunus: 92)

"We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences" (al-Hadid: 25)
Wa Allahu 'Alim