format_quote Originally Posted by
Podo
Other religions have their stories of miracles too, though.
of course. the origin is the same. God sends his prophets to those people, provides them miracles, they are being guided to the correct path...but after some generations people start to add innovations to it and a new religion is created, complete with its own God, prophet and even miracles.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Podo
This is actually something I find intriguing, and a large part of why I decided to post on this forum in the first place. Granted, I've only read the Koran in translation, but the idea that a (supposedly) illiterate trader with no real knowledge of anything other than trading matters could write something such as the Koran is unlikely at best and worth investigating at worst. I'm an amateur linguist (I speak English, German, Mandarin, my Russian and Spanish is alright, and in university I studied Old English, Old Norse, and Middle Egyptian) and my interest in the Koran partially stems from my interest, via Middle Egyptian, of Classical Arabic. From the small parts I've been able to learn enough to understand, the poetry is very advanced. Does this mean it HAS to be divine? No. But, it doesn't rule divinity out, I suppose.
If notice, this is the second issue you mention that is does not HAS to be divine...but very like it is...but you have no alternative.
1st the creation of life that it is very unlikely that it happened on its own...
2nd an illiterate person to reveal a complicated book like the Quren...
Are you waiting for more indications to finally see the miracle?
format_quote Originally Posted by
Podo
Something I find troubling, though, is that to "fully understand" the Koran, I've heard from many sources that you need to read this, and read that, and talk to so-and-so, and etc etc. It seems like one needs a degree in Koranic studies to "fully understand" the text. This seems to contradict sure 16:89, though, which is and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything (16:89). Wouldn't a book that is designed to be the clear word of a creator deity logically be easy to understand? Why would the revelations not be clear, with easy to understand examples? Some of the Koran is very straightforward, absolutely, but some isn't. This seems counterintuitive.
I am not asking you to read anything. I do not like that at all. But the Tafsir is something different. It is a guide, a reference book which systematically gives background information on every surah and verse in what period it was revealed, what was happening in the world at that moment, what the verse is referring to and the translation of it.
You see, the Quran can be too direct sometimes. For example it speaks about disobedient people in the past who were turned into apes as a punishment to set an example. (Al-Baqara/ The Cow 2/65-66)
To understand this verse, you need to know who these people were and what they have done wrong. The Tafsir provides you this kind of information.
THe Tafsir does not have a high status for us muslims. it is just a book like every other book. But we use it to gain that little bit of extra information on the sura's we are interested in.
I would recommend the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir...that is commonly accepted among most muslims.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Podo
I think that depends on how you determine flaws. Logical contradictions? Maybe not. I can't say that I'm very pleased with the treatment of women, however. Is that a logical flaw? No, but it's still not something that I would consider a positive thing. I think its issues are fewer than many other spiritual paths, for sure, but it isn't flawless.
No, I mean ANY kind of flaw. Of course there are logical flaws (the easiest kind of flaws to prove it's wrong) in other religions..like verses who literally contradict each other.
what you mention as flaws (the treatment of women, I do not think you understand it as good as you think you do.
I do not know what exactly you are referring, but let me give you a few examples:
The thing that a women inherits half of the share that her brother gets. This looks like injustice. Why would men inherit twice as much as women.
This, because of another rule withing the Islam: Men are obligated to take of women. Everything a man owns, he has to share with his wife. His wife owns 50% of the mans posessions.
But the women does not have to share a thing. Everything the wife owns, is 100% hers and she can not be forced to share it with her husband.
another example:
The testimony of the women is worth half of the testimony of the man.
This is because of the characteristics of men and women...We can say that men and women are equal all we want, but physically, we are really not equal.
Divine wisdom has granted women, in general, very sensitive emotions, tender feelings, and a predisposition towards care and love of other members of the family. This makes a woman capable of her natural task of childbearing, nursing, taking care of all the needs of the young child, etc. Based on these emotional characteristics of the woman, she might very well follow her emotional inclinations and swerve from harsh realities due to an emotional involvement in a case. A woman's loving and kind feelings might overcome what she has witnessed, and thus she may distort the story of her witness and testimony. At the same time the biological changes that occur in her body due to menses, pregnancy, child-birth and post-natal conditions reduce the sharpness of her memory and may make her forget the details of the issue.
I can mention a few other examples but please give me your version of the story what you think that is not correct in the treatment of women in Islam.
One more thing on this issue. Muslim men mistreating their wives is not a fault of the religion but more personal or cultural. women walking several feet behind her husband on the street, beating up women just because she forgot something, circumcision of women, are not things that are rules in Islam, but things that grew crooked in a culture. Has nothing to do with religion.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Podo
This is a common thread for most religions, unfortunately. It's also the part that I struggle with.
What exactly is it that makes you struggle with this so much? can you please explain?
format_quote Originally Posted by
Podo
What happens to those who don't have the option to convert to Islam? For argument's sake, what happens to the people who live in remote areas and never are exposed to this religion?
That is also the part I struggle with at the moment. My personal opinion about those people: (not all muslims agree with me on this)
Children, people with the syndrome of down, and all other people who have not the ability to distinguish between good and wrong, go directly to heaven.
these people did not have a chance in the world to prove themselves so, they have no sins and they go directly to heaven.
People who live in distinct areas, who have no access to true information about Islam, who can not do their own investigation, where the only available information about Islam is on the news on TV or on newspapers (bad manipulated information)...but who still believe in a God...chooses to do good...avoids the bad should also come in the same category of people like children and mentally incapable people.
They never had the chance to learn about Islam...but they still believe in a God and they choose to be good people.
Again, not all Muslims agree with me on this.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Podo
Thank you for your continued engagement! I appreciate you taking the time to engage with all my inquiry.
No, I have to thank you for being interested and asking the right questions. I enjoy these kind of discussions with people because this enables me to look at my own religion from a different view. As a born Muslim, you take some things as granted automatically, never really giving a thought about it, but these kind of discussions make you aware of this, and you start to think about things.
Untill so far, these kind of discussions only made my faith grow stronger...the more I investigated, learned and discussed, the more I started to truely understand and love my religion.
I really wanted to write this responce earlier, but I had a long weekend and really wanted to spend some time with my family...which is also very important.
Sorry about that.