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fschmidt
05-25-2018, 09:50 PM
This thread is for people who believe in evolution. If you don't believe in evolution, please ignore this thread. This isn't a debate thread.

http://www.mikraite.org/Human-Evolution-tp17.html

This is an old post of mine explaining the relationship between God and evolution. I wrote it before I learned about Islam, so it was written based on the Old Testament. But I believe that it will make sense to Muslims who believe in evolution. I would like to know what you think.
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Ümit
05-26-2018, 07:23 AM
İn general...İ definitelly agree with you.
İ came to the same conclusion:
İf İslam is the true religion and Allah created the universe, Earth, all living creatures and every law of nature....then science can NEVER contradict with İslam. That is impossible.

You made some errors in your post though. One example:
You are saying that we should not take the Bible too literally so the statement of "God created us from clay and dust" is false.
The same statement can also be found in the Quran...so it cannot be false.
But think of it like this:
What happens to our bodies when we die?
İt decomposes and becomes a part of the Earth again right?
So when you think about it...it may be true after all...right?

Now the next step:
What happens to the body of animals when they die?

You see the connection now?
So animals are then also made from clay and dust.

Therefore...both statements are still valid:
Allah has created us from clay and dust...and he used evolution as a tool for the creation of all living creatures on Earth.

- - - Updated - - -

İn general...İ definitelly agree with you.
İ came to the same conclusion:
İf İslam is the true religion and Allah created the universe, Earth, all living creatures and every law of nature....then science can NEVER contradict with İslam. That is impossible.

You made some errors in your post though. One example:
You are saying that we should not take the Bible too literally so the statement of "God created us from clay and dust" is false.
The same statement can also be found in the Quran...so it cannot be false.
But think of it like this:
What happens to our bodies when we die?
İt decomposes and becomes a part of the Earth again right?
So when you think about it...it may be true after all...right?

Now the next step:
What happens to the body of animals when they die?

You see the connection now?
So animals are then also made from clay and dust.

Therefore...both statements are still valid:
Allah has created us from clay and dust...and he used evolution as a tool for the creation of all living creatures on Earth.
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anatolian
05-26-2018, 08:24 AM
We simply came from a piece of a clay according to the evolution theory too. Clay is made of dust and water. Dust is made of carbon and its derivations. This is how science explains the life came on earth. A reaction of carbon (C) and water (H2O) lead to Hydrocarbons and these became the first organic molecules which became the fundementals of life. The first living cells, minerals, plants, animals and therefore the man. So the definition of Quran for how Allah created Adam from "clay" can be a shortage of this proccess which in reality took millions of years. So it is possible that Adam had a biolgical father and mother but Allah did not regard them "humans". This is how I regard it.

Also in the Sufi interpretation the above procces means a lot of things. It tells us where we came from and what we are. Our "nafs/self" simply comes from our animal nature. Our "'iidrak/perception" is the tool to know the divine. The reason why Allah did not consider the biological father and mother of Adam as humans was their lack of perception of Allah and their purpose.
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Abz2000
05-26-2018, 02:32 PM
Grass eats clay, and cattle eat grass, then we get loads of meat and fat and milk from cattle.

Not a very far removed process - single step actually.

Although it is true that the essential building block clay has to evolve a bit - just like Jesus who's made of clay - but is born of woman.

----

I intend to read your post later on inshaAllah @fschmidt - wish it was more bite sized lol.
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hinabutt
05-31-2018, 12:05 PM
Theory of evolution raises many questions... Quran is the best guide in the universe :)

- - - Updated - - -

MashaAllah
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Ümit
05-31-2018, 04:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hinabutt
Theory of evolution raises many questions... Quran is the best guide in the universe :)

- - - Updated - - -

MashaAllah
Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.

- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by hinabutt
Theory of evolution raises many questions... Quran is the best guide in the universe :)

- - - Updated - - -

MashaAllah
Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.
Reply

hinabutt
05-31-2018, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.
I completely agree with you Umie.. Well, in my opinion there is answer to every question in Quran.. Allah Almighty has sent us to this place to learn and learn more.

May Allah guide us all.

- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.
I completely agree with you Umie.. Well, in my opinion there is answer to every question in Quran.. Allah Almighty has sent us to this place to learn and learn more.

May Allah guide us all.
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rafhelp
06-04-2018, 07:50 PM
How can you be a muslim AND believe in evolution...
Because beleiving in evolution simply means god did not create man
but if you believe that you cant be muslim
Reply

Ümit
06-04-2018, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rafhelp
How can you be a muslim AND believe in evolution...
Because beleiving in evolution simply means god did not create man
but if you believe that you cant be muslim
Evolution does not mean God did not create man at all. Some people want to promote that...yes...but pure from scientific point of view...the evolution theory describes (or at least an attempt to describe) the proces behind the development of species. The presence of God is left open here.
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Good brother
06-04-2018, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Evolution does not mean God did not create man at all. Some people want to promote that...yes...but pure from scientific point of view...the evolution theory describes (or at least an attempt to describe) the proces behind the development of species. The presence of God is left open here.
It means that there was no "plan of creation", according to Darwin.

But according to Quran 20:50:


Shakir
He said: Our Lord is He Who gave to everything its creation, then guided it (to its goal).
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Scimitar
06-05-2018, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Evolution does not mean God did not create man at all. Some people want to promote that...yes...but pure from scientific point of view...the evolution theory describes (or at least an attempt to describe) the proces behind the development of species. The presence of God is left open here.
How about humans? do you believe we "evolved"??? or do you believe, that humans are succinctly exempted from evolution??? I'm wondering if you have lumped our species together with the animal kingdoms... or not.
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Eric H
06-05-2018, 08:19 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Bushwackk;

How about humans? do you believe we "evolved"???
Evolution could not happen without Allah, and it says that man was made from the earth. so I just trust in scripture and not science.

May your journey through Ramadan be blessed,

Eric
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Ümit
06-05-2018, 09:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
How about humans? do you believe we "evolved"??? or do you believe, that humans are succinctly exempted from evolution??? I'm wondering if you have lumped our species together with the animal kingdoms... or not.
I elaborated this already several times in this thread, but I will shortly elaborate it now too:

I believe in Creation. Allah created us from dust and clay. I do not believe in evolution....but...
I support evolution...lets face the facts:
  • When we die, our bodies decompose and become dust and clay again...back to being a part of Earth again.
  • when animals die, happens the same.


Does this mean that animals are also created from dust and clay? Islam does not say anything about it, but it seems like that to me.
I do not say that I am 100% sure that Evolution must have been happened, because science is never absolute. It is just a tool for us to try to explain the different phenomenon around us. It is an approximation of reality and as we develop, science get adjusted and fine tuned all the time.

But still, Allah may have used evolution as a tool to create all living creatures. Nothing in the Quran contradicts with this.

About the question whether we evolved from apes:
I think so, but not in the meaning of Adam as having ape parents.

one example I also gave before:
For the human reproduction process we require a male and a female to have sexual intercourse with each other. this was so in the past, this was so before and after Jesus as, and this will not change in the future.

The fact that Jesus as was born without a father did not change this process of human reproduction.
Jesus as got his Y-chromosomes from an unknown source...
What I am saying is that Allah is perfectly capable of making miracles happen...and these miracles do not have to change anything about the original process.

So, did we evolve from apes? yes, I think so untill almost the moment that apes became human...and then Allah created Adam as, but without parents...just like he created Jesus as
Where Adam as got his chromosomes krom is unknown....but this does not change anything about the natural evolution process before, nor after Adam as.

Like said, nothing happens on its own...evolution does not happen on its own. Behind the scenes, Allah is still behind the steering wheel...

but if you ask me, science and Islam are perfectly in sync here.
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anatolian
06-05-2018, 09:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
How about humans? do you believe we "evolved"??? or do you believe, that humans are succinctly exempted from evolution??? I'm wondering if you have lumped our species together with the animal kingdoms... or not.
I believe we too evolved. We are not an exemption. We are just to quick to blame evolution with atheism because of its historical development. In fact Ibn Khaldun as a Muslim scientist thought it long years before Darwin. It is quite possible that Allah used the process of evolution to create us. Nothing happened by chance. Also Quran has a lot of metaphores. We cannot deny that. I refered to this metephor in my above post if you are interested. There are some ayats which I find interpretable by this way. The most prominent one is Insaan 1

The Man:1 “There surely came over man a period of time when he was a thing not worth mentioning.”
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Good brother
06-05-2018, 11:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
In fact Ibn Khaldun as a Muslim scientist thought it long years before Darwin.
The Great Chain of Being has nothing to do with Darwinism. It's a greek philosophical idea of an order to creation.

https://www.islamicboard.com/health-...ml#post2985201

Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory
Salam. Since the subject is heated frequently here and everywhere I thought it is a good idea to discuss its Islamic roots if there is any. I personall...
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Abz2000
06-05-2018, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rafhelp
How can you be a muslim AND believe in evolution...
Because beleiving in evolution simply means god did not create man
but if you believe that you cant be muslim
One would along a similar thread wonder how Arabic was to be the concentrate language chosen by God before the Quran was revealed, yet it evolved and continued to evolve long after Haajar :as: and Ismail :saws: settled in Makkah.
Or are there some of us who believe that the Arabic language - as it is in the Quran - was downloaded to man in one sitting?


Click to enlarge:

Attachment 6428

Attachment 6429

Attachment 6430
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keiv
06-05-2018, 10:48 PM
Then, as before, the question of, what happened to the 'apes who almost evolved to humans' once Adam (AS) was created, comes up. Did they disappear? Did they live side by side? Did they eventually evolve to humans and blend in? If so, are some of us offsprings of the evolved apes and some of us offsprings of Adam (AS)? If some people believe Adam (AS) had non human biological parents, where were they when Allah (SWT) created Adam (AS)? Were they as tall as Adam (AS)? If apes evolved to the point of almost being human like, would Allah (SWT) have needed to intervene or would the apes have eventually evolved to what we are today without Allah (SWT)?
Reply

Ümit
06-06-2018, 11:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Then, as before, the question of,
as before, the answer to your question:
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
what happened to the 'apes who almost evolved to humans' once Adam (AS) was created, comes up.
As you can see there are no apes around which are almost human, we can conclude these apes got extinct.
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Did they disappear?
maybe not directly, but eventually, yes
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Did they live side by side?
I do not have information about this, but they might have lived side by side for a while.
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Did they eventually evolve to humans and blend in?
No. that is for sure. All humanity comes from Adam as.
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
If so,
No.
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
are some of us offsprings of the evolved apes and some of us offsprings of Adam (AS)?
No.
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
If some people believe Adam (AS) had non human biological parents, where were they when Allah (SWT) created Adam (AS)?
Where did you read I said anything about Adam as having non human biological parents? I explicitly said in my post that Adam was created without parents, so, shere are you getting the non human biological parents from?
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Were they as tall as Adam (AS)?
...
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
If apes evolved to the point of almost being human like, would Allah (SWT) have needed to intervene or would the apes have eventually evolved to what we are today without Allah (SWT)?
You still think evolution is an automatic phonomenon and Allah has to intervene sometimes...there is no intervening...Allah is in full controll...all the time...every step, every second in evolution is with Allahs permission.
so without Allah, nothing happens...not even evolution.

Look friend, I do not have all the questions about this, but if I may summarize, it boils down to this:
  • All humans come from Adam as
  • Adam was created from dust and clay...but so are animals...so there is a possibility that Allah uses evolution to create
  • Quran is absolute...science however is NOT absolute...it gets adjusted and fine tuned as we develop ourselfes...so it might not be fully correct


It looks like you are trying to push me in the corner by asking such silly questions, but All I am saying is that evolution is a possibility and it does not contradict Islam.
Reply

keiv
06-06-2018, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
as before, the answer to your question:
As you can see there are no apes around which are almost human, we can conclude these apes got extinct.
maybe not directly, but eventually, yes
I do not have information about this, but they might have lived side by side for a while.
No. that is for sure. All humanity comes from Adam as.
No.
No.
So, they were extint at the time of Adam (as) but could have lived side by side for a while? Ok..

format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Where did you read I said anything about Adam as having non human biological parents? I explicitly said in my post that Adam was created without parents, so, shere are you getting the non human biological parents from?
I didn't quote you but, either way, you did say in another thread Adam and Eve could be descendants of apes but with a miracle, then try to somehow make a connection between Adam (as) and Isa (as), where Islamically, one was birthed and the other was not. Outside of both being miracles, I don't see the connection.. The only way you can make a connection between the two is if you believe both Adam (as) and Isa (as) were birthed, which is not the case here. Anyways:

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
So it is possible that Adam had a biolgical father and mother but Allah did not regard them "humans". This is how I regard it.

Also in the Sufi interpretation the above procces means a lot of things. It tells us where we came from and what we are. Our "nafs/self" simply comes from our animal nature. Our "'iidrak/perception" is the tool to know the divine. The reason why Allah did not consider the biological father and mother of Adam as humans was their lack of perception of Allah and their purpose.
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
You still think evolution is an automatic phonomenon and Allah has to intervene sometimes...there is no intervening...Allah is in full controll...all the time...every step, every second in evolution is with Allahs permission.
so without Allah, nothing happens...not even evolution.
No I don't think that. You believe that evolution could have happened. My question was, if apes have evolved for however thousands or millions of years up to the point of Adam's (as) creation, what's to stop them from continuing to evolve and eventually becoming humuans? (now we're getting into atheist territory)

format_quote Originally Posted by umie
It looks like you are trying to push me in the corner by asking such silly questions, but All I am saying is that evolution is a possibility and it does not contradict Islam.
Apparently, there are others here who believe in this hybrid evolution theory which is why I didn't quote any one person. As far as what's silly, I'll just leave that alone...
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Ümit
06-07-2018, 06:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
So, they were extint at the time of Adam (as) but could have lived side by side for a while? Ok..

I didn't quote you but, either way, you did say in another thread Adam and Eve could be descendants of apes but with a miracle, then try to somehow make a connection between Adam (as) and Isa (as), where Islamically, one was birthed and the other was not. Outside of both being miracles, I don't see the connection.. The only way you can make a connection between the two is if you believe both Adam (as) and Isa (as) were birthed, which is not the case here. Anyways:
So you do not see the connection between Adam as and Jesus as?
here is your daily dosis of biology then.

Humans have always a pair of chromosomes. males have XY chromosomes, females have XX chromosomes. egg cells only contain X chromosomes, so females can only pass X chromosomes to their offspring. spermcells however can contain either X, or Y chromosomes.
This means, during furtilization of an egg cell, the gender of the offspring is determined by the spermcell.

Jesus got his X chromosome from his mother...but where did he get the Y chromosome from? who's genes have been passed over to Jesus as? so here is the miracle with genes appearing from unknown source.

The same with Adam, but with the difference that not only Y, but both X and Y chromosomes have an unknown source.

so, birthed or not birthed is just a part of the issue.

You get the connection now?

format_quote Originally Posted by keiv

No I don't think that. You believe that evolution could have happened.
COULD have happened, yes. It is a possibility. I am not ruling that out. Again, Science is not absolute and needs adjustment all the time...perhaps within 10 years the whole world gains new research results on evolution and we decide "this whole theory was just silly, what were we thinking?"
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
My question was, if apes have evolved for however thousands or millions of years up to the point of Adam's (as) creation, what's to stop them from continuing to evolve and eventually becoming humuans? (now we're getting into atheist territory)
The apes somehow got extinct. they did not evolve into humans, that is for sure...but that can be also a part of the miracle...I do not know...again, I do not have all the answers over here.
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Apparently, there are others here who believe in this hybrid evolution theory which is why I didn't quote any one person. As far as what's silly, I'll just leave that alone...
Again, we do not believe in any theory...we believe in Islam...we just support this hybrid evolution theory...we do not say that this is how it happened...we say that this is a possibility how it might have happened...because every verse and hadeeth is still valid so it does not contradict with each other.
Allah is still present...he is still at the steering wheel.
I called your questions silly because you are still thinking about apes completely evolving into humans on their own parallel to Adam...that is not the case.
We just want to understand the process...that is all...stop thinking that we try to have an alternative to Islam...that is not the purpose here.
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keiv
06-07-2018, 09:28 AM
I'll just keep this short and simple, then leave it as is. I only see this going in circles and to go any further than it has would be pointless.

format_quote Originally Posted by umie
So you do not see the connection between Adam as and Jesus as?
here is your daily dosis of biology then.

Humans have always a pair of chromosomes. males have XY chromosomes, females have XX chromosomes. egg cells only contain X chromosomes, so females can only pass X chromosomes to their offspring. spermcells however can contain either X, or Y chromosomes.
This means, during furtilization of an egg cell, the gender of the offspring is determined by the spermcell.

Jesus got his X chromosome from his mother...but where did he get the Y chromosome from? who's genes have been passed over to Jesus as? so here is the miracle with genes appearing from unknown source.

The same with Adam, but with the difference that not only Y, but both X and Y chromosomes have an unknown source.

so, birthed or not birthed is just a part of the issue.

You get the connection now?


COULD have happened, yes. It is a possibility. I am not ruling that out. Again, Science is not absolute and needs adjustment all the time...perhaps within 10 years the whole world gains new research results on evolution and we decide "this whole theory was just silly, what were we thinking?"

The apes somehow got extinct. they did not evolve into humans, that is for sure...but that can be also a part of the miracle...I do not know...again, I do not have all the answers over here.

Again, we do not believe in any theory...we believe in Islam...we just support this hybrid evolution theory...we do not say that this is how it happened...we say that this is a possibility how it might have happened...because every verse and hadeeth is still valid so it does not contradict with each other.
Allah is still present...he is still at the steering wheel.
I called your questions silly because you are still thinking about apes completely evolving into humans on their own parallel to Adam...that is not the case.
We just want to understand the process...that is all...stop thinking that we try to have an alternative to Islam...that is not the purpose here.
No. The confusion isn't with biology here. The confusion is how you are comparing the two in an attempt to explain your theory of evolution. Another example is how you state they were extinct and then in a line below that say they could have lived together. Actually, the confusion goes beyong that in many ways. Also, you can't say that you don't believe in any theory while at the same time saying you believe we evolved from apes up to the point of Adam (as). That is a theory. For those that believe Adam (as) had non human biological parents, that too is a theory. Then if you go to say that its possible, expect people to question you on it. So again, if you feel my questions (which are based on the theories you guys are posting about) are silly, I'll let that statement speak for itself.
Reply

Ümit
06-07-2018, 11:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
I'll just keep this short and simple, then leave it as is. I only see this going in circles and to go any further than it has would be pointless.

No. The confusion isn't with biology here. The confusion is how you are comparing the two in an attempt to explain your theory of evolution.
You did not see the connection between Adam as and Jesus as and I showed you that connection...and it is a biological one...and according to me pretty clear connection.
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Another example is how you state they were extinct and then in a line below that say they could have lived together.
you are pulling everything I said out of context. how is that not possible?
The first thing I said is that I do not have all the questions...you acting like me being the person who knows everything is ridiculous...
second, why do you think that "they were extinct and then in a line below that say they could have lived together" exactly contradict with each other?
If you paid attention this was our conversation:
You: what happened to the 'apes who almost evolved to humans' once Adam (AS) was created, comes up.
Me: As you can see there are no apes around which are almost human, we can conclude these apes got extinct.
You: Did they disappear?
Me: maybe not directly, but eventually, yes
You: Did they live side by side?
Me: I do not have information about this, but they might have lived side by side for a while.


So summarized: whether they already were extinct at the point Adam as got created or not, I do not know. They might have existed at that moment and then slowly got extinct (which means they have been living side by side for xxx years, or they might have been wiped out instantly at the moment of Adams as creation. So, where is the contradiction in this answer? I do not get it.
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Actually, the confusion goes beyong that in many ways. Also, you can't say that you don't believe in any theory while at the same time saying you believe we evolved from apes up to the point of Adam (as). That is a theory. For those that believe Adam (as) had non human biological parents, that too is a theory.
No you still did not get it.
You see an unknown phenomenon, you investigate this phenomenon and tries to find an explanation for the cause of it, and how it works…so you develop a theory…this does not mean that this theory you thought out, is the absolute truth…but it might contain the answer, or at least point to a certain direction.
So no, I do not believe that the theory of evolution is the absolute truth…but it may be the answer…at least it sounds logical….of course we might be totally wrong with this one…but until now, it does not contradict Islam if you ask me.
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Then if you go to say that its possible, expect people to question you on it. So again, if you feel my questions (which are based on the theories you guys are posting about) are silly, I'll let that statement speak for itself.
Of course people can ask questions about it, and I will happily answer those and I won’t back off.
It’s just that your attacking manner and how you are trying to twist and turn my words in the way that suits you is bothering me a little.
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Eric H
06-07-2018, 12:45 PM
Greetings and peace be with you umie;

You did not see the connection between Adam as and Jesus as and I showed you that connection...and it is a biological one.
Jesus had a biological mother, but Adam did not have a biological mother or father, similar but different.

The following are just my beliefs, so no proof offered. I believe God created all the species separately, once they were created then evolution happened. I do not believe you can use evolution to extrapolate back 4 billion years to single cell life, then use it to explain the complexity of the life we see today.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric
Reply

Ümit
06-07-2018, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you umie;

Jesus had a biological mother, but Adam did not have a biological mother or father, similar but different.

The following are just my beliefs, so no proof offered. I believe God created all the species separately, once they were created then evolution happened. I do not believe you can use evolution to extrapolate back 4 billion years to single cell life, then use it to explain the complexity of the life we see today.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric
So, you are talking about micro evolution as it's called. species being able to change theirselves in a minor way over generations according to the changes in nature...but not changing in such a way that you get a complete new species...not from fish to reptile or something.

I do not rule that out either. I am just keeping all options open....but still...I do not see that macro evolution contradicts Islam...that is what I am saying.
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Eric H
06-07-2018, 02:43 PM
Greetings and peace be with you umie;

So, you are talking about micro evolution as it's called. species being able to change theirselves in a minor way over generations according to the changes in nature...but not changing in such a way that you get a complete new species...not from fish to reptile or something.
That pretty much sums up my thoughts on Evolution. Having said that, evolution has no real meaning to me, it does not inspire me to do anything. I even find myself agreeing with Richard Dawkins when he said; we should not live our lives based on evolutionary principles.

Faith in God has a real meaning to me, and it does inspire my outlook on life.

Wishing you every blessing through Ramadan.

Eric
Reply

ZeeshanParvez
06-09-2018, 05:53 PM
A Muslim who believes in evolution has committed kufr. This does not make him a kaafir but he has committed kufr.

The Fatwaa is here. I recommend Muslims not to commit kufr.
Reply

Ümit
06-10-2018, 10:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez
A Muslim who believes in evolution has committed kufr. This does not make him a kaafir but he has committed kufr.

The Fatwaa is here. I recommend Muslims not to commit kufr.
Sorry to say but this fatwa failed to convince me that the giver of this fatwa has made a well-informed conclusion. First of all...the fatwa giver never elaborates why believing in evolution is a kufr...he just claims that and continues to explain when someone can be called kafir. Second, evolution is more than only darwinism...the theory has gone through some development after Darwin.
For what İ know, this guy just heard that evolution contradicted İslam...never took the effort to investigate...and just followed blindly what he heard.
Someone with more convincing fatwas? Please share.
Reply

Abz2000
06-10-2018, 04:49 PM
45Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and the Pharisees, who asked them, “Why didn’t you bring him in?”

46“No one ever spoke the way this man does,” the guards replied.

47“You mean he has deceived you also?” the Pharisees retorted. 48“Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? 49No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them.”

50Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, 51“Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing?”

52They replied, “Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee.”

[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]


53Then they all went home,

From John 7

Reply

azc
06-10-2018, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Sorry to say but this fatwa failed to convince me that the giver of this fatwa has made a well-informed conclusion. First of all...the fatwa giver never elaborates why believing in evolution is a kufr...he just claims that and continues to explain when someone can be called kafir. Second, evolution is more than only darwinism...the theory has gone through some development after Darwin.
For what İ know, this guy just heard that evolution contradicted İslam...never took the effort to investigate...and just followed blindly what he heard.
Someone with more convincing fatwas? Please share.
What do you say about it?
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm
Reply

Abz2000
06-10-2018, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you umie;

Jesus had a biological mother, but Adam did not have a biological mother or father, similar but different.

The following are just my beliefs, so no proof offered. I believe God created all the species separately, once they were created then evolution happened. I do not believe you can use evolution to extrapolate back 4 billion years to single cell life, then use it to explain the complexity of the life we see today.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric

Do you not believe that the axolotl contains mysterious signs in terms of fish with limbs and rapid cell regeneration?



The critter looks like something stuck in fetal mode.
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Ümit
06-10-2018, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Pff this is a very difficult text...i understood only the half of it...the part İ understood...İ could agree with...i will take my time and read this article again. Maybe İ have to reconsider my claim after all.
Thanks for sharing...İ will come back to this later on.

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fschmidt
06-11-2018, 01:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Pff this is a very difficult text...i understood only the half of it...the part İ understood...İ could agree with...i will take my time and read this article again. Maybe İ have to reconsider my claim after all.
Thanks for sharing...İ will come back to this later on.

Actually this article is nonsense. Regarding coherence, what is said here is philosophical nonsense. Of course our observations aren't perfectly objective as optical illusions demonstrate. Regarding logicality, evolution is not hard science, it is what I would call soft science. It is a working hypothesis that has proven to be very useful. Regarding applicability, he complains that evolution isn't smooth over time. But of course successful mutations are rare and the mutation rate may vary of time. So this is hardly an argument against evolution. Regarding Man, the author seems to be telling God how God should behave. The idea that God cannot create Man from clay through evolution is using religious ideology to limit God, which seems contrary to the spirit of the Quran.

When I created this thread, I had assumed that Islam would tolerate both views, both pro-evolution and anti-evolution. But now I see that some Muslims are as closed minded as atheists, believing that only their view is acceptable. This is sad.
Reply

Desert
06-11-2018, 05:18 PM
God is not a monkey.
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2018, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Desert
God is not a monkey.
Tawbah astagfurullah...where does that come from?
Reply

keiv
06-12-2018, 12:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
Actually this article is nonsense. Regarding coherence, what is said here is philosophical nonsense. Of course our observations aren't perfectly objective as optical illusions demonstrate. Regarding logicality, evolution is not hard science, it is what I would call soft science. It is a working hypothesis that has proven to be very useful. Regarding applicability, he complains that evolution isn't smooth over time. But of course successful mutations are rare and the mutation rate may vary of time. So this is hardly an argument against evolution. Regarding Man, the author seems to be telling God how God should behave. The idea that God cannot create Man from clay through evolution is using religious ideology to limit God, which seems contrary to the spirit of the Quran.

When I created this thread, I had assumed that Islam would tolerate both views, both pro-evolution and anti-evolution. But now I see that some Muslims are as closed minded as atheists, believing that only their view is acceptable. This is sad.
The Quran's view on man's beginning is pretty clear. What is there to discuss?
Reply

Ümit
06-12-2018, 07:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
The Quran's view on man's beginning is pretty clear. What is there to discuss?
define "pretty clear". That Allah created us from dust and clay and we all come from Adam as, might be pretty clear to you. however, it is not that very detailed...so the process behind it is not so pretty clear unfortunately...so there is pretty much to discuss...

format_quote Originally Posted by azc
I am going to be honost here:
My English is actually pretty good if I may say that about myself, but this article is a level too difficult for me.
like said, I did not understand everything. But for as good as I can, here is my reaction:
part about coherence: I could not follow.
logicality: evolution is not science but more like an interpretation. The evidence for evolution is not that hard because there are still may gaps of intermediate species, so I can understand that the author sees this more like an interpretation than a science...but then again, aren't all theories then more or less interpretations up to a certain degree?
The Rutherford-model and the Bohrmodel are models in an attempt to explain how the electrons behave around a nucleos...but until today, no one has a magnifying device so powerfull to see how an atom exactly looks like. but still the model is usefull and explains occuring phenomenon very well.

applicability: an example of continuous fossil findings where one species slowly transforms into another is the case with moluscs. however, this was in a short period of 3 mln years.
the record shows that transformation is not constant in time...that animals stay much the same for a long period and then rapidly change. within 5000 to 30.000 years.
This sounds pretty logical to me. why would animals change when they do not need to?

Man: The author claims that evolution contradicts Islam regarding humans because Adam as was created in Janna and not on Earth. However, we do not know anything about Janna's location...it can be totally in another dimension and still be on earth on the same time. the law of physics as we know here does not apply on Janna...so it is wrong to say that Janna is in a different place than Earth...and just as wrong to say that Jannah is on Earth...the whole concept of "place" relies on the laws of physics as we know...so, we can not say anything about this.
The part with the "created with his own two hands" I did not understand completely.
The ruh of man is special, a sacred substance...not a part of Allah. this indicates that the creation of man was something special...not to compare with other species...
I can agree with this, but this still does not contradict with what I was saying...apes evolving untill a certain points...then a miracle happens and Adam is being created with slightly different features and with a ruh...so the old "model" can still be used to form Adam as as the new model (without parents) and included a ruh.

Most of the scientists are atheists that believe that God was a creation of man. That might be. But still the theory must be based on objective observations and facts...we can disregard personal statements and claims.

the part that evolutionists believe in that causes bring about effects in and of themselves is also not the case. cause can bring about effects because Allah is allowing that...in no way of themselves.
the example that the bullet gave the president death instead of Allah is not a case that evolution is therefore wrong...it is just an issue that we muslims should be aware of.

Again...cut away the crap like personal statements, claims and preferences...leave the part that can be used.

adequasy:

bits and parts I understood, but not completely.

conclusion:
Again, most of what I understood, I could agree on...some details not, because the given examples still does not contradict with my own view

The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Reply

Abz2000
06-12-2018, 08:12 AM
I too felt that the author was attempting to sound over-sophisticated to the verge of incoherence, it's good to use meaningful words if the clarity outweighs the complication, but that is NOT the result in my opinion. Prob'ly struggled to fit the words himself.



Regarding the fossil transition gap - we have living examples :

Is human evolution compatible with the quran?

Is human evolution compatible with the quran? - Page 8
Ok, I'm done beating around the bush and just going to be honest now. Can human evolution be reconciled? I mean, there is so much evidence for it, and...
Reply

ZeeshanParvez
06-13-2018, 11:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
I seriously dislike that website. But that article is nothing short of brilliant.

A scientific theory has to be falsifiable for it to to be scientific.

Evolution isn't. Thus, it is not even scientific. :statisfie

Reply

Abz2000
06-13-2018, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez
I seriously dislike that website. But that article is nothing short of brilliant.

A scientific theory has to be falsifiable for it to to be scientific.

Evolution isn't. Thus, it is not even scientific. :statisfie

With all due respect, what do you mean when you say that it must be falsifiable?
Is it not a conclusion based on observation of what is obviously apparent?
Eg. "This is a white swan" - in contrast to the falsifiable previously held theory "all swans are white".
Or "this is a liger/tigon" in contrast to the theory "it may be a fact that life developed in stages".
Reply

fschmidt
06-13-2018, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez
I seriously dislike that website. But that article is nothing short of brilliant.

A scientific theory has to be falsifiable for it to to be scientific.

Evolution isn't. Thus, it is not even scientific.

Evolution and Islam
...
Evolution is falsifiable. Just google "evolution falsifiable" and find numerous examples of how evolution could be falsified. The only reason that evolution doesn't qualified as hard science is because it is not EXPERIMENTALLY falsifiable. But evolution is science because it is falsifiable by discovered evidence.
Reply

Good brother
06-13-2018, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
Evolution is falsifiable. Just google "evolution falsifiable" and find numerous examples of how evolution could be falsified. The only reason that evolution doesn't qualified as hard science is because it is not EXPERIMENTALLY falsifiable. But evolution is science because it is falsifiable by discovered evidence.
The scientific evolution:

'change over time', 'descent with modification', or 'the change of allele frequencies of a population over time'.

This is well established, testable, falsifiable and provable.


"Evolution" according to neo-darwinian scenario:

'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information'.

This is a speculation; not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.

Fallacy of equivocation:

Atheists & Darwinists use undeniable examples of 'change over time' (variation) to prove 'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information' (microbe-like-to-man evolution).

This inexcusable logic is called equivocation or the bait-and-switch fallacy, and occurs when someone changes the definition of a word halfway through an argument.
The supposed Evidence for Evolution is full of examples of 'change over time' as evidence for microbes-to-man evolution.

http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-quran-scientific-errors-on-evolution.html

Reply

fschmidt
06-13-2018, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Good brother
The scientific evolution:

'change over time', 'descent with modification', or 'the change of allele frequencies of a population over time'.

This is well established, testable, falsifiable and provable.


"Evolution" according to neo-darwinian scenario:

'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information'.

This is a speculation; not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.

Fallacy of equivocation:


Atheists & Darwinists use undeniable examples of 'change over time' (variation) to prove 'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information' (microbe-like-to-man evolution).

This inexcusable logic is called equivocation or the bait-and-switch fallacy, and occurs when someone changes the definition of a word halfway through an argument.
The supposed Evidence for Evolution is full of examples of 'change over time' as evidence for microbes-to-man evolution.

http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-quran-scientific-errors-on-evolution.html

No. If you falsify the first (The scientific evolution) then you have falsified the second ("Evolution" according to neo-darwinian scenario). Therefore the second is falsifiable.
Reply

Good brother
06-13-2018, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
No. If you falsify the first (The scientific evolution) then you have falsified the second ("Evolution" according to neo-darwinian scenario). Therefore the second is falsifiable.
No scientist ever claimed what you say: "'the change of allele frequencies of a population over time'" is a fact while the claim of evolution of a microbe(starting point A)-to man (End point B) has never been -and will never be-falsifiable.



Attachment 6435



No human can bring the first microbe on earth and test its progeny by follow-up and observation.
Reply

Abz2000
06-13-2018, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Good brother
the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information.
Atheists & Darwinists use undeniable examples of 'change over time' (variation) to prove 'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information' (microbe-like-to-man evolution).
Isn't this also observable in the fact that the diverse human race is descended from Adam :as: ?

Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky? With it We then bring out produce of various colours. And in the mountains are tracts white and red, of various shades of colour, and black intense in hue. (Surah Fatir, 27)

And so amongst people and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving. (Surah Fatir, 28)

And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know. (Surah Ar-Rum, 22)

And the things on this earth which He has multiplied in varying colours (and qualities): verily in this is a sign for people who celebrate the praises of Allah (in gratitude). (Surah An-Nahl, 13)

And how do we falsify a plain and undeniable fact once it has been accepted by those concerned? - such as the liger and tigon and the liliger etc?

I know that Allah also uses falsification when instructing us to think in the Quran, but this is for the sake of argument for the benefit those who may still be in doubt, but once an absolute truth is accepted without doubt, He discards falsification:

Eg:

لَوْ كَانَ فِيهِمَا آلِهَةٌ إِلَّا اللَّهُ لَفَسَدَتَا فَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ


If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been disorder and confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!

Quran 21:22



قُل لَّوْ كَانَ مَعَهُ آلِهَةٌ كَمَا يَقُولُونَ إِذًا لَّابْتَغَوْا إِلَىٰ ذِي الْعَرْشِ سَبِيلًا

Muhammad Asad
Say: "If there were-as some people assert [other] deities side by side with Him, surely [even] they would have to strive to find a way unto Him who is enthroned on His almightiness?"

M. M. Pickthall
Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): If there were other gods along with Him, as they say, then had they sought a way against the Lord of the Throne.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
Say: If there had been (other) gods with Him, as they say,- behold, they would certainly have sought out a way to the Lord of the Throne!

Quran 17:42


مَا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ مِن وَلَدٍ وَمَا كَانَ مَعَهُ مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ إِذًا لَّذَهَبَ كُلُّ إِلَٰهٍ بِمَا خَلَقَ وَلَعَلَا بَعْضُهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ


M. M. Pickthall
Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!

Quran 23:91




This sounds like an invitation to consider with falsification, but then when theoretical arguments are put forth after the acceptance of the solid fact, He treats such arguments with simple logical argument - and absolute contempt when frivolous arguments are put forth forth primarily for contention and denial:


فَذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبُّكُمُ الْحَقُّ فَمَاذَا بَعْدَ الْحَقِّ إِلَّا الضَّلَالُ فَأَنَّىٰ تُصْرَفُونَ

M. M. Pickthall
Such then is Allah, your rightful Lord. After the Truth what is there saving error? How then are ye turned away!

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
Such is Allah, your real Cherisher and Sustainer: apart from truth, what (remains) but error? How then are ye turned away?

Quran 10:32




وَالَّذِينَ يُحَاجُّونَ فِي اللَّهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا اسْتُجِيبَ لَهُ حُجَّتُهُمْ دَاحِضَةٌ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَعَلَيْهِمْ غَضَبٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ

Muhammad Asad
And as for those who would [still] argue about God after He has been acknowledged [by them] all their arguments are null and void in their Sustainer’s sight, and upon them will fall [His] condemnation, and for them is suffering severe in store.

M. M. Pickthall
And those who argue concerning Allah after He hath been acknowledged, their argument hath no weight with their Lord, and wrath is upon them and theirs will be an awful doom.

Quran 42:16



كَذَّبَتْ قَبْلَهُمْ قَوْمُ نُوحٍ وَالْأَحْزَابُ مِن بَعْدِهِمْ وَهَمَّتْ كُلُّ أُمَّةٍ بِرَسُولِهِمْ لِيَأْخُذُوهُ وَجَادَلُوا بِالْبَاطِلِ لِيُدْحِضُوا بِهِ الْحَقَّ فَأَخَذْتُهُمْ فَكَيْفَ كَانَ عِقَابِ



Muhammad Asad
to the truth gave the lie, before their time, the people of Noah and, after them, all those [others] who were leagued together [against God’s message-bearers]; and each of those communities schemed against the apostle sent unto them, aiming to lay hands on him; and they contended [against his message] with fallacious arguments, so as to render void the truth thereby: but then I took them to task - and how awesome was My retribution!

M. M. Pickthall
The folk of Noah and the factions after them denied (their messengers) before these, and every nation purposed to seize their messenger and argued falsely, (thinking) thereby to refute the Truth. Then I seized them, and how (awful) was My punishment.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
But (there were people) before them, who denied (the Signs),- the People of Noah, and the Confederates (of Evil) after them; and every People plotted against their prophet, to seize him, and disputed by means of vanities, therewith to condemn the Truth; but it was I that seized them! and how (terrible) was My Requital!

Quran 40:5




--------------



For example, He has Moses invite Pharaoh, and Pharaoh requests an opportunity to compete at an equally agreeable venue:


فَلَنَأْتِيَنَّكَ بِسِحْرٍ مِّثْلِهِ فَاجْعَلْ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكَ مَوْعِدًا لَّا نُخْلِفُهُ نَحْنُ وَلَا أَنتَ مَكَانًا سُوًى



But we surely can bring you magic like it; so appoint a agreement between us and you, which shall not be broken, neither by us, nor by you, at a place/position equal (convenient).

Quran 20:58



Moses accepts by Allah's leave:



قَالَ مَوْعِدُكُمْ يَوْمُ الزِّينَةِ وَأَن يُحْشَرَ النَّاسُ ضُحًى


(Moses) said: "Your agreement is the Day of the celebration, and let the people be assembled when the sun is well up."

Quran 20:59



They are however warned to refrain from inventing unjust falsehood:


قَالَ لَهُم مُّوسَىٰ وَيْلَكُمْ لَا تَفْتَرُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا فَيُسْحِتَكُم بِعَذَابٍ وَقَدْ خَابَ مَنِ افْتَرَىٰ

Muhammad Asad
Said Moses to them: "Woe unto you! Do not invent lies against God, lest He afflict you with most grievous suffering: for He who contrives [such] a lie is already undone!"

M. M. Pickthall
Moses said unto them: Woe unto you! Invent not a lie against Allah, lest He extirpate you by some punishment. He who lieth faileth miserably.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
Moses said to him: Woe to you! Forge not ye a lie against Allah, lest He destroy you (at once) utterly by chastisement: the forger must suffer frustration!"

Quran 20:61


Then the unjust Pharaoh inevitably loses, his scientists accept the truth, blind rage, false accusations, and injustice ensue with a well displayed power struggle before the masses, then comes a totally cheeky and illogical challenge where he has a tower built to overshadow the God of Moses - despite his denial of the existence of such God.


وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَٰهٍ غَيْرِي فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَىٰ إِلَٰهِ مُوسَىٰ وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ



And Pharaoh said: "O you Chiefs! no god do I know for you other than myself: therefore, kindle for me O haman (to bake bricks) on clay, and make for me a SARH (castle, palace, imposing structure) that I may mount up to the god of Moses: and as far as I am concerned, I think he's (Moses) a liar!"



Then Pharaoh gets intoxicated with his riches and power, and becomes Lucifer:


فَقَالَ أَنَا رَبُّكُمُ الْأَعْلَىٰ

Then said: "I AM your Lord, Most High

Quran 79:24




Then once Pharaoh's illogical falsehood, injustice, and arrogance have peaked, he gets discarded with contempt:


فَأَخَذَهُ اللَّهُ نَكَالَ الْآخِرَةِ وَالْأُولَىٰ

Muhammad Asad
And thereupon God took him to task, [and made him] a warning example in the life to come as well as in this world.

M. M. Pickthall
So Allah seized him (and made him) an example for the after (life) and for the former.



So Allah siezed him/took him to task an exemplary corrective punishment for the last and the first.

Quran 79:25



إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَعِبْرَةً لِّمَن يَخْشَىٰ

Muhammad Asad
In this, behold, there is a lesson indeed for all who stand in awe [of God].

M. M. Pickthall
Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for him who feareth.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
Verily in this is an instructive warning for whosoever feareth (Allah).

Quran 79:26




See also Quran Chapter 43:46-64 for other invalid falsification methods.




- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by Good brother
No scientist ever claimed what you say: "'the change of allele frequencies of a population over time'" is a fact while the claim of evolution of a microbe(starting point A)-to man (End point B) has never been -and will never be-falsifiable.



Attachment 6435



No human can bring the first microbe on earth and test its progeny by follow-up and observation.
But we can observe the journey of the sperm (which is again a base fluid identical in appearance to that of most developed creatures) from initiation to birth as (khalq an aakhar), then it's journey and trials onward until producing new sperm with code slightly different to itself at every inception - and insemination into a female with slightly different genetic makeup and make conclusions based on that in order to ponder on how such a proposition is possible.



And we can also prove with logic beyond reasonable doubt that an eternal being whom we call Allah exists.without seeing Him - to the extent of Yaqeen.


A falsifiable hypothesis:
There has always been contention over scientific methodology and the way it has sometimes been used by those with a monopoly on public voice to reject truth via a rigid talmudic method in contrast to a more honest and open-minded method - we can observe these limitations for example in the rejection by resourceful Harvard of Carl Sagan and his resulting constrainment to smaller and less resourceful universities.


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In 1968, Sagan was denied tenure at Harvard. He later indicated the decision was very much unexpected.[25] The tenure denial has been blamed on several factors, including that he focused his interests too broadly across a number of areas (while the norm in academia is to become a renowned expert in a narrow specialty), and perhaps because of his well-publicized scientific advocacy, which some scientists perceived as borrowing the ideas of others for little more than self-promotion.[21] An advisor from his years as an undergraduate student, Harold Urey, wrote a letter to the tenure committee recommending strongly against tenure for Sagan.

Sagan was among[clarification needed] the first to hypothesize that Saturn's moon Titan might possess oceans of liquid compounds on its surface and that Jupiter's moon Europa might possess subsurface oceans of water. This would make Europa potentially habitable.[31] Europa's subsurface ocean of water was later indirectly confirmed by the spacecraft Galileo. The mystery of Titan's reddish haze was also solved with Sagan's help. The reddish haze was revealed to be due to complex organic molecules constantly raining down onto Titan's surface.

Sagan is best known, however, for his research on the possibilities of extraterrestrial life, including experimental demonstration of the production of amino acids from basic chemicals by radiation.

As of 2017, Sagan is the most cited SETI scientist and one of the most cited planetary scientists.

Former student David Morrison describes Sagan as "an 'idea person' and a master of intuitive physical arguments and 'back of the envelope' calculations,"[21] and Gerard Kuiper said that "Some persons work best in specializing on a major program in the laboratory; others are best in liaison between sciences. Dr. Sagan belongs in the latter group."

Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time – when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.
Carl Sagan, from Demon-Haunted World (1995)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan
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anatolian
06-14-2018, 01:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Good brother
The Great Chain of Being has nothing to do with Darwinism. It's a greek philosophical idea of an order to creation.

https://www.islamicboard.com/health-...ml#post2985201

Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory
Salam. Since the subject is heated frequently here and everywhere I thought it is a good idea to discuss its Islamic roots if there is any. I personall...
And Ibn Khaldun's evolution theory has nothing to do with Darwinism too. Probably Lamarck, who influenced Darwin, was influenced by Ibn Khaldun's opinions. And its quite possible that he was influenced by the greeks however it doesn have to be same. Scientific theories are like human beings. They are born, grow and die but give birth to some other scientific theories. Thats the very nature of science. Darwin's E.T. has already been falsified by the modern biology but it gave birth to a newer version of an E.T. The issue here is the general "theory of evolution". Does the evolution exist or not? For me it does and it does not contradict with Islam.
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