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Raymann
09-20-2018, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
We have all the instructions we need, I am not sure what another prophet could do.
Muslims claim similarly that Islam provides all the rules necessary for the perfect justice system as well as for every day life in general. Many times I heard that the Islamic scriptures provide the solutions for all modern problems.
That's a huge claim to make, now, can you back it up and prove it ?
The answer is "No".
There has never been a perfect or close to perfect Islamic State.
I tried to address that claim on one of my "Closed" threads with no convincing answers.None of the more than 50 countries with Muslim majority implements 100% sharia.
How is that possible ? So perfect that not even Muslims dare to adopt it.
My personal opinion is that Muslims know deep inside that those regulations would never work in this modern world.They need to be updated, but how ?
You cannot update and change God's rules with man made ones.
I would love to see an 100% sharia country.
Imaging walking thru the streets and noticing people with missing hands, others missing feet and limbs.
Approaching the park you can witness an adultery stoning.
Further up the street there is a public execution of a gay person, you cover your eyes from the sun because they're going to drop him from a tall building.
Just another day in a perfect world.
How much longer do we have to wait for it ?

Disclaimer: The previous imaginary scenario is based purely on my own research. No disrespect intended.
Reply

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Zafran
09-21-2018, 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Muslims claim similarly that Islam provides all the rules necessary for the perfect justice system as well as for every day life in general. Many times I heard that the Islamic scriptures provide the solutions for all modern problems.
Nope Utopia is not an Islamic Idea its a post enlightenment one generally led by Marxist or right wingers. Possible roots in Platos republic. Islam Is a holistic religion that has metaphysical, epistemological and ethical commitments which lead straight to to eschatological life. Life is a test and is bound to have testing experiences at hand.

Originally Posted by Raymann
That's a huge claim to make, now, can you back it up and prove it ?
The answer is "No".
You made a claim which no one claimed.


Originally Posted by Raymann
There has never been a perfect or close to perfect Islamic State.
what Islamic state exactly? - are you talking about pre nation state empires like Abbasid, Ummayads, mamaluks, Ottomans, Or post colonial nation states like Pakistan, Turkey, Malaysia, Nigeria etc etc.


Originally Posted by Raymann
I tried to address that claim on one of my "Closed" threads with no convincing answers.None of the more than 50 countries with Muslim majority implements 100% sharia
Sharia is divine law that is not state law - its to do with, belief, action, morality how to wash yourself all the way to rulership, crime and punishment and war and peace. Its a discursive and the application of it is called Fiqh.

Originally Posted by Raymann
How is that possible ? So perfect that not even Muslims dare to adopt it.
we do all around the world - I live in the UK and try to live by sharia.


Originally Posted by Raymann
My personal opinion is that Muslims know deep inside that those regulations would never work in this modern world.They need to be updated, but how ?
You cannot update and change God's rules with man made ones.
They work alright we practice it every day.

Originally Posted by Raymann
You cannot update and change God's rules with man made ones.
update to what exactly?
Originally Posted by Raymann
I would love to see an 100% sharia country.
what is a 100% sharia country?

Originally Posted by Raymann
Imaging walking thru the streets and noticing people with missing hands, others missing feet and limbs.
sounds like the second world war


Originally Posted by Raymann
Approaching the park you can witness an adultery stoning.
or Abu Gharib


Originally Posted by Raymann
Further up the street there is a public execution of a gay person, you cover your eyes from the sun because they're going to drop him from a tall building.
Just another day in a perfect world.
Like the US and Gutanamo.


Originally Posted by Raymann
How much longer do we have to wait for it ?
To meet God when you die


Originally Posted by Raymann
Disclaimer: The previous imaginary scenario is based purely on my own research. No disrespect intended.
wont call it research mostly a giant conjured straw man, That has no bearing on reality.
Reply

Raymann
09-21-2018, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Originally Posted by Raymann
That's a huge claim to make, now, can you back it up and prove it ?
The answer is "No".
You made a claim which no one claimed.
Nop, I didn't make the claim, Muslims made the claim. I don't know enough Islam to do so.

Sharia: A perfect lifestyle
http://www.muslim-sharia.com/muslim-...ect-lifestyle/

SHARIAH - BARBARIC OR PERFECT? | LECTURE | DR ZAKIR NAIK


This Is What Life Is Like Under Sharia Law


As you can see I didn't invent the information posted. The claim that Sharia is the perfect system is very popular where I live (New York City), I heard it many times from Muslims. You can read it on the Internet.
Are you saying that as a Muslim you don't believe is the best system ? Many Muslims would disagree with you.

All I say and post is based on Internet research and very little from Muslims themselves.
I've never been in a Muslim country so Youtube is my best research tool.
You're welcome to prove me wrong, preferably with some good links from reliable sources.
Reply

eesa the kiwi
09-21-2018, 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Nop, I didn't make the claim, Muslims made the claim. I don't know enough Islam to do so.

Sharia: A perfect lifestyle
http://www.muslim-sharia.com/muslim-...ect-lifestyle/

SHARIAH - BARBARIC OR PERFECT? | LECTURE | DR ZAKIR NAIK


This Is What Life Is Like Under Sharia Law


As you can see I didn't invent the information posted. The claim that Sharia is the perfect system is very popular where I live (New York City), I heard it many times from Muslims. You can read it on the Internet.
Are you saying that as a Muslim you don't believe is the best system ? Many Muslims would disagree with you.

All I say and post is based on Internet research and very little from Muslims themselves.
I've never been in a Muslim country so Youtube is my best research tool.
You're welcome to prove me wrong, preferably with some good links from reliable sources.
Way to ignore like 90% of his post dude
Reply

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Abz2000
09-21-2018, 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Muslims claim similarly that Islam provides all the rules necessary for the perfect justice system as well as for every day life in general. Many times I heard that the Islamic scriptures provide the solutions for all modern problems.
That's a huge claim to make, now, can you back it up and prove it ?
The answer is "No".

You wont fool anybody with those hasbara lines - they're so mechanical it's like you're working on an assembly line and your hand movements have a synthetic flare of gusto to them as if you're stamping piles of paperwork at a bank.

There's no point in pretending to ask a question to so many people who can respond and then attempting to declare the results as if you've counted the ballot, it's called insecure psychological manipulation.

The "huge claim " (an oft-repeated hasbara line you yourself have used before - the purpose is to put any possible responder under pressure by making them feel as if in the dock, to the unsuspecting audience it appears to be an abnormal fantasy which an imaginary claimant is trying too desparately to convince them of like an annoying salesman- a refusal to respond is thereby portrayed as if a claim was made with the exact wording of the hasbara shill) can be backed up once we've turned the tables and dealt with your conniving and deceitful israeli embassy types who thrive off falsehood, sabotage, and subversion.


Originally Posted by Raymann
There has never been a perfect or close to perfect Islamic State.
You despicable anti-christ liar - the Prophet set up the Islamic state in ten years, and one quarter of the population of the globe are his followers - they got lax somewhere down the line and are suffering the consequences as a result, they are now stirring awake as they realise how they've been had.
That's why so many corrupt Godless liars show fear and feign indignance when they see people rising up and establishing islamic rule.
The recent events that took place in egypt are a perfect example of how afraid the usurers puppets are of the people's resolve in re-establishing Islam.


Originally Posted by Raymann
I tried to address that claim on one of my "Closed" threads with no convincing answers.
you didn't try to address anything with any faithful objectivity - liar, you simply avoided the correct answers and continued pushing false narratives and heavily propagandised misconceptions like the shill that you are.


Originally Posted by Raymann
None of the more than 50 countries with Muslim majority implements 100% sharia.
they will, once they declare war on the usurious banks like God has instructed people to.




Originally Posted by Raymann
How is that possible ? So perfect that not even Muslims dare to adopt it.
It's possible because most of them are concerned about the state of their economies and debt situation, the illegal invasion of libya and the rothschild run "bank of de la rue" notes in iraq are a nice example of how such sabotage is perpetrated, once the global fiat money system implodes, they'll have nothing to lose anyway and the people who weren't thinking before will get a chance to think clearly,
Don't complain once we do.
Also watch how that puppet trump's "making greater anti-christ israel" backfires, God has promised to send judgements against those tossers 'til the day of judgement.


Originally Posted by Raymann
My personal opinion is that Muslims know deep inside that those regulations would never work in this modern world.They need to be updated, but how ?
Again - the signature hasbara method of putting out an opinion, not awaiting views, then talking as if everybody is on a concensus of your fake opinion.

Muslims know deep inside that they do work, they have studied how rltheir forefathers went wrong and laxed, and are working to establish islam like never before.
There are an overwhelming number of surveys which clearly demonstrate that adherence to Islam is increasing on a very personal level - to the extent that some usurer puppet governments such as france are seeking ways to prevent it from taking over in a very fluid and natural fashion.

Originally Posted by Raymann
You cannot update and change God's rules with man made ones.
Please provide an example of which rule - because as far as i know, the requirement is to serve God in truth and with sincerity whilst doing one's best to obey Him. The treacherous jews who had broken the treaty pretended to be shocked when the Prophet :saws: started cutting down the trees, Allah :swt: confirmed that it was a righteous action in service to Him so that He might disgrace the transgressors.



Originally Posted by Raymann
I would love to see an 100% sharia country.
Coming soon inshaAllah :swt: If you live to see it that is.




Originally Posted by Raymann
Imaging walking thru the streets and noticing people with missing hands, others missing feet and limbs.
Are you talking about your friends who are thieves and corrupt politicians? They tend to disappear into the minority and then into obscurity as the justice of Islam which includes just re-distribution of wealth prevails. It all happens in stages, then you won't have any excuse to steal or hand over precious contracts to crooks for a pittance.



Originally Posted by Raymann
Approaching the park you can witness an adultery stoning.
you'll have to ask the people who claim to uphold the torah and use it as an excuse to steal land and deceive unsuspecting goy on that one, the Prophet initially used it as a ruling after foing to a jewish school and asking the people of the torah, the islamic rulings on the lashing and exiling of unfaithful adulterers still work in preventing the crime and pacifying the victims.


Originally Posted by Raymann
Further up the street there is a public execution of a gay person
It appears your primary target audience is thieves, corrupt politicians, unfaithful adulterers, and sodomites, i'd probably have a vote whether to apply the prescribed punishment, or to throw you all on a remote island with basic necessities which you'd likely repent on or turn into hell on earth yourselves.

Originally Posted by Raymann
, you cover your eyes from the sun because they're going to drop him from a tall building.

It appears that you are talking about the actions of people other than the Prophet :saws: who were not applying the judgement of the Quran and sunnah, and the recent ones who were sensationalist black bloc provocateurs attempting to cover the crimes of their puppet paramilitary forces who had thrown respected islamic leaders from rooftops - we can leave those sodomites on that island instead so that it's a habitation for every unclean spirit.




Originally Posted by Raymann
Just another day in a perfect world.
Your sarcasm appears aimed at obscuring your own insecurities - given the fact that your usurious and deceitful reign of the past century has caused more poverty and bloodshed than ever witnessed in the history of planet earth.


Originally Posted by Raymann
How much longer do we have to wait for it ?
For the end of your Godless usurious decadent reign and the establishment of a genuine Islamic state that will do away with the corruption you attempted to falsely attribute to Islam?
Not long inshaAllah.



Originally Posted by Raymann
Disclaimer: The previous imaginary scenario is based purely on my own research. No disrespect intended.

I don't think you're an imaginary troll, i think you're real, that you've just trolled the forum like a hasbara shill, and that it is clear from the final "disclaimer" that you believe that none of what you stated was actually real or aimed at advancing to learn anything positive and was rather a false slander aimed at subverting people and wasting their energies.
I think you should be banned for that and that we need a genuine open vote on it so that the moderators are not overburdened.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
09-21-2018, 04:12 AM
@Raymann, Sharia law or the outcomes of implementing Sharia law are not as what you have imagined or posted from vice. Muslims had a caliphate until the last century, Sharia was implemented and yet, you do not see any records of "stoning in a park", people missing their limbs and getting thrown from buildings. You have only been watching anti-sharia propaganda.


Watch these if you really want to understand.















Read also:


Islamic Law for 'Primitive' Societies? - Islam21c
One argument frequently touted against Islām and Muslims is the assertion that Islamic Law was conceived for a primitive era and applying it to our...

Doubt in Islamic Law - a history of avoiding punishment - Islam21c
Book Review --Doubt in Islamic Law: A History of Legal Maxims, Interpretation, and Islamic Criminal Law "Avoid imposing criminal sanctions in cases of...
Reply

Raymann
09-21-2018, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
@Raymann, Sharia law or the outcomes of implementing Sharia law are not as what you have imagined or posted from vice. Muslims had a caliphate until the last century, Sharia was implemented and yet, you do not see any records of "stoning in a park", people missing their limbs and getting thrown from buildings. You have only been watching anti-sharia propaganda.
Thank you so much for the links, I'm watching the videos right now.
Reply

Abrahamic_seek
09-21-2018, 06:08 PM
This was a very ignorant post. Yes there would be people wothout hands, very fiew. there would sometimes be an adultery stoning. Remember that to stone a person the person has to admitt doing it. In correct sharia, stoning of a person that has been witnessed having sex with a peron of the same gender is very uncommon. Imagine how little crime it would be, how people would be aware of Allah and what peace people would live in. Our society in the west is so dead inside. I'd rather offer the hands of some of the real thieves than to live in a society where people have dead souls. the beauty of lives does not lay in doing whatever you want and having lame punishments. The beauty is in sharia, justice and the rememberence of Allah, the merciful.
Reply

eesa the kiwi
09-21-2018, 07:31 PM
This is from @Eric H he messaged me saying he was unable to post this

A 100% sharia country would be where everyone obeyed the law, and there would be no need for any punishment. There would be no need to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family, because in a kind society people would look after each other; especially the poor.

Only Allah can bring about justice in a greater good life after death. If there is no god, then all the injustice we witness here on earth can never truthfully be put right. Who else can restore the life of a murdered child?

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric
Reply

keiv
09-21-2018, 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Nop, I didn't make the claim, Muslims made the claim. I don't know enough Islam to do so.

Sharia: A perfect lifestyle
http://www.muslim-sharia.com/muslim-...ect-lifestyle/

SHARIAH - BARBARIC OR PERFECT? | LECTURE | DR ZAKIR NAIK


This Is What Life Is Like Under Sharia Law


As you can see I didn't invent the information posted. The claim that Sharia is the perfect system is very popular where I live (New York City), I heard it many times from Muslims. You can read it on the Internet.
Are you saying that as a Muslim you don't believe is the best system ? Many Muslims would disagree with you.

All I say and post is based on Internet research and very little from Muslims themselves.
I've never been in a Muslim country so Youtube is my best research tool.
You're welcome to prove me wrong, preferably with some good links from reliable sources.
In regards to the vimeo video, what about it do you disagree with? Just curious
Reply

Raymann
09-21-2018, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by Abrahamic_seek
there would sometimes be an adultery stoning. Remember that to stone a person the person has to admit doing it. In correct sharia, stoning of a person that has been witnessed having sex with a person of the same gender is very uncommon.
There is one dilema, every Muslim woman that is raped, would not even bother pressing charges against the rapist.
Why ? As you mention, to prove adultery 4 witnesses are needed (very unlikely possibility) but pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery. So I don't see how justice is accomplished here. Men know very well the rules and I'm pretty sure they're taking full advantage of the flaws.
Another problem are foreign women who don't dress appropriately to Islamic standards, they get raped all the time and by not knowing the rules they press charges and get charged with adultery.
Lucky for them 100% sharia is not implemented so they pay with a few years in jail. Totally unfair.
Bottom line, the statistics might say there is very low crime rate but reality is a total different thing.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
09-22-2018, 12:42 AM
First of all please don't put on zakir naik. Also, sharia actually has many interpretations, its not as clear cut as you'd think. Thirdly i recommend checking out a tumblr blog called partytilfajr. He studied sharia and actually talks about how it would work etc.
Reply

Zafran
09-22-2018, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
but pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery
what the?????
Reply

Raymann
09-22-2018, 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Originally Posted by Raymann
but pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery

what the?????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7nuhxnv_8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgzknXWmAoM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OKbitMPMqw

Did that answered it?
Reply

AabiruSabeel
09-22-2018, 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
There is one dilema, every Muslim woman that is raped, would not even bother pressing charges against the rapist.
Why ? As you mention, to prove adultery 4 witnesses are needed (very unlikely possibility) but pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery. So I don't see how justice is accomplished here. Men know very well the rules and I'm pretty sure they're taking full advantage of the flaws.
Another problem are foreign women who don't dress appropriately to Islamic standards, they get raped all the time and by not knowing the rules they press charges and get charged with adultery.
Lucky for them 100% sharia is not implemented so they pay with a few years in jail. Totally unfair.
Bottom line, the statistics might say there is very low crime rate but reality is a total different thing.
Wasn't this already answered in your previous thread? Rape and adultery are two different crimes in Islamic law.

If you are willing to read more, then here are some more explanations for you:

Rape and fornication are totally different categories in Islamic law - Islam web - English Rape and fornication are totally different categories in Islamic law In another fatwa you have basically put the act of rape under the category of zin.....



Your specific examples from Dubai and Qatar are also explained there.
Reply

Raymann
09-22-2018, 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
Wasn't this already answered in your previous thread? Rape and adultery are two different crimes in Islamic law.
I was responding to someone who maybe didn't read my post about rape. I don't have a problem repeating over and over the same thing to different people who didn't participated in other threads.
Rape can be address as a particular topic and also as part of Sharia Law. Rape, adultery, fornication are topics very much in our daily lives right now so I don't see why we should restrain ourselves from talking about what we want to talk.
Is there a certain limit to what we can say if we are not being offensive nor disrespectful to anybody ?
By the way that thread was not very satisfying to me in terms of getting answers. People kept avoiding giving straight answers by asking me to find statistics and asking me a million questions in order to deflect having to answer very simple questions.
I abandoned that thread when my posts stopped being approved with no explanation.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by keiv
In regards to the vimeo video, what about it do you disagree with? Just curious
Which one is the vimeo video ?
Reply

Raymann
09-22-2018, 08:32 AM
Something just popped in my head and since we're dealing with sharia law I'll ask.
What happens if two policeman find an unmarried couple having sex hidden in a park?
The couple would immediately denied having sex.
Adultery requires four witnesses but these witnesses are policeman.
Are four witnesses still required for an adultery accusation in this case.

I just realized my mistake, an unmarried couple having unlawful sex is not adultery but fornication.
So in that case four witnesses are not needed and the two policemen are enough.

Interesting.
Reply

anatolian
09-22-2018, 05:36 PM
Sharia is not just to punish the sexual crimes. It is a form of regime which was prescribed by our Creator and His Messenger. So it is ofcourse perfect but just because we humans are not it is not 100% correctly applied today. It is easy logic. When Mahdi comes he will 100% correctly apply it. If you live long enough you can see.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-22-2018, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
You wont fool anybody with those hasbara lines - they're so mechanical it's like you're working on an assembly line and your hand movements have a synthetic flare of gusto to them as if you're stamping piles of paperwork at a bank.

There's no point in pretending to ask a question to so many people who can respond and then attempting to declare the results as if you've counted the ballot, it's called insecure psychological manipulation.

The "huge claim " (an oft-repeated hasbara line you yourself have used before - the purpose is to put any possible responder under pressure by making them feel as if in the dock, to the unsuspecting audience it appears to be an abnormal fantasy which an imaginary claimant is trying too desparately to convince them of like an annoying salesman- a refusal to respond is thereby portrayed as if a claim was made with the exact wording of the hasbara shill) can be backed up once we've turned the tables and dealt with your conniving and deceitful israeli embassy types who thrive off falsehood, sabotage, and subversion.




You despicable anti-christ liar - the Prophet set up the Islamic state in ten years, and one quarter of the population of the globe are his followers - they got lax somewhere down the line and are suffering the consequences as a result, they are now stirring awake as they realise how they've been had.
That's why so many corrupt Godless liars show fear and feign indignance when they see people rising up and establishing islamic rule.
The recent events that took place in egypt are a perfect example of how afraid the usurers puppets are of the people's resolve in re-establishing Islam.




you didn't try to address anything with any faithful objectivity - liar, you simply avoided the correct answers and continued pushing false narratives and heavily propagandised misconceptions like the shill that you are.




they will, once they declare war on the usurious banks like God has instructed people to.






It's possible because most of them are concerned about the state of their economies and debt situation, the illegal invasion of libya and the rothschild run "bank of de la rue" notes in iraq are a nice example of how such sabotage is perpetrated, once the global fiat money system implodes, they'll have nothing to lose anyway and the people who weren't thinking before will get a chance to think clearly,
Don't complain once we do.
Also watch how that puppet trump's "making greater anti-christ israel" backfires, God has promised to send judgements against those tossers 'til the day of judgement.




Again - the signature hasbara method of putting out an opinion, not awaiting views, then talking as if everybody is on a concensus of your fake opinion.

Muslims know deep inside that they do work, they have studied how rltheir forefathers went wrong and laxed, and are working to establish islam like never before.
There are an overwhelming number of surveys which clearly demonstrate that adherence to Islam is increasing on a very personal level - to the extent that some usurer puppet governments such as france are seeking ways to prevent it from taking over in a very fluid and natural fashion.



Please provide an example of which rule - because as far as i know, the requirement is to serve God in truth and with sincerity whilst doing one's best to obey Him. The treacherous jews who had broken the treaty pretended to be shocked when the Prophet :saws: started cutting down the trees, Allah :swt: confirmed that it was a righteous action in service to Him so that He might disgrace the transgressors.





Coming soon inshaAllah :swt: If you live to see it that is.






Are you talking about your friends who are thieves and corrupt politicians? They tend to disappear into the minority and then into obscurity as the justice of Islam which includes just re-distribution of wealth prevails. It all happens in stages, then you won't have any excuse to steal or hand over precious contracts to crooks for a pittance.





you'll have to ask the people who claim to uphold the torah and use it as an excuse to steal land and deceive unsuspecting goy on that one, the Prophet initially used it as a ruling after foing to a jewish school and asking the people of the torah, the islamic rulings on the lashing and exiling of unfaithful adulterers still work in preventing the crime and pacifying the victims.




It appears your primary target audience is thieves, corrupt politicians, unfaithful adulterers, and sodomites, i'd probably have a vote whether to apply the prescribed punishment, or to throw you all on a remote island with basic necessities which you'd likely repent on or turn into hell on earth yourselves.




It appears that you are talking about the actions of people other than the Prophet :saws: who were not applying the judgement of the Quran and sunnah, and the recent ones who were sensationalist black bloc provocateurs attempting to cover the crimes of their puppet paramilitary forces who had thrown respected islamic leaders from rooftops - we can leave those sodomites on that island instead so that it's a habitation for every unclean spirit.






Your sarcasm appears aimed at obscuring your own insecurities - given the fact that your usurious and deceitful reign of the past century has caused more poverty and bloodshed than ever witnessed in the history of planet earth.




For the end of your Godless usurious decadent reign and the establishment of a genuine Islamic state that will do away with the corruption you attempted to falsely attribute to Islam?
Not long inshaAllah.






I don't think you're an imaginary troll, i think you're real, that you've just trolled the forum like a hasbara shill, and that it is clear from the final "disclaimer" that you believe that none of what you stated was actually real or aimed at advancing to learn anything positive and was rather a false slander aimed at subverting people and wasting their energies.
I think you should be banned for that and that we need a genuine open vote on it so that the moderators are not overburdened.
I like you brother ;D ;D ;D

I WISH I could have met you in real life and we could have been friends in real life!! Such strength and common sense and not afraid to speak your mind!! ;D :D :D ;D :D
Reply

eesa the kiwi
09-22-2018, 07:24 PM
Another post from @Eric H

Greetings and peace be with you Raymann,

The law of Allah is a profound subject; it should deter people from breaking the law, if you don’t want to get stoned to death, then don’t commit adultery. A real believer would fear Allah and not break any of the laws; we should fear Allah more than we fear getting caught by any law enforcement.

I think law and justice are very different subjects, the person who has been murdered or raped can never get justice, they cannot be un – killed or un - raped. The most that can happen is if the perpetrator is caught, they can be punished.

Punishment just means one more person suffers; it is not the same as justice. Only Allah can grant true justice in a greater good life after death.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric
Reply

Abz2000
09-22-2018, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Something just popped in my head and since we're dealing with sharia law I'll ask.
What happens if two policeman find an unmarried couple having sex hidden in a park?
The couple would immediately denied having sex.
Adultery requires four witnesses but these witnesses are policeman.
Are four witnesses still required for an adultery accusation in this case.

I just realized my mistake, an unmarried couple having unlawful sex is not adultery but fornication.
So in that case four witnesses are not needed and the two policemen are enough.

Interesting.

The duty of the state is not to nose into every minuscule event where God has constrained it by setting laws such as the four witnesses law.
The duty of the state is to ensure social justice in Allah's sight, and to foster an atmosphere of taqwa by enjoining and encouraging good, detering and discouraging from evil, and policing public wrongdoings including brazen filthy acts in public.
in this way, a person gets to go out and about without filthy thoughts being cast into his/her mind and the minds of their children.
Before long - filthiness is generally shunned, and righteous and kind acts in Allah's sight are applauded.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I like you brother ;D ;D ;D

I WISH I could have met you in real life and we could have been friends in real life!! Such strength and common sense and not afraid to speak your mind!! ;D :D :D ;D :D
Please make dua for me,
If you want to meet up for Allah's sake and in submission and obedience to Him, i have a small jekyll island like resort (where money grows on trees in the form of fruits - unlike the "federal" reserve bank where money grows on trees, then gets printed on, then added to the already diluted soup) where we can smoke shisha, do woodwork, and go fishing on.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-22-2018, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The duty of the state is not to nose into every minuscule event where God has constrained it by setting laws such as the four witnesses law.
The duty of the state is to ensure social justice in Allah's sight, and to foster an atmosphere of taqwa by enjoining and encouraging good, detering and discouraging from evil, and policing public wrongdoings including brazen filthy acts in public.
in this way, a person gets to go out and about without filthy thoughts being cast into his/her mind and the minds of their children.
Before long - filthiness is generally shunned, and righteous and kind acts in Allah's sight are applauded.

- - - Updated - - -



Please make dua for me,
If you want to meet up for Allah's sake and in submission and obedience to Him, i have a small jekyll island like resort that we can smoke shisha, do woodwork, and go fishing on.
I would love that brother :cry::cry::cry: I would! I would! I would! When I hear there will be 50 women to 1 man in the end of time I feel like...I lost all potential friends (Alhamdolillah I am not there yet) :cry::cry: I will miss on having a brotherly hug :cry::cry: I WANT TO GO FISHING WITH YOU BROTHER! I WOULD LIKE THAT!!!!!! Brother I am soon may permenantly move away from this Western world forever Insha'Allah and move to Islamic country...turkey! I hope we meet there one day and become friends in real life!
Reply

Abz2000
09-22-2018, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
Another post from @Eric H

Greetings and peace be with you Raymann,

The law of Allah is a profound subject; it should deter people from breaking the law, if you don’t want to get stoned to death, then don’t commit adultery. A real believer would fear Allah and not break any of the laws; we should fear Allah more than we fear getting caught by any law enforcement.

I think law and justice are very different subjects, the person who has been murdered or raped can never get justice, they cannot be un – killed or un - raped. The most that can happen is if the perpetrator is caught, they can be punished.

Punishment just means one more person suffers; it is not the same as justice. Only Allah can grant true justice in a greater good life after death.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric


The law of just retaliation is a check and balance which can be waved if there is the understanding that it is better to forgive, or accept a fine and forgive.

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Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I would love that brother :cry::cry::cry: I would! I would! I would! When I hear there will be 50 women to 1 man in the end of time I feel like...I lost all potential friends (Alhamdolillah I am not there yet) :cry::cry: I will miss on having a brotherly hug :cry::cry: I WANT TO GO FISHING WITH YOU BROTHER! I WOULD LIKE THAT!!!!!! Brother I am soon may permenantly move away from this Western world forever Insha'Allah and move to Islamic country...turkey! I hope we meet there one day and become friends in real life!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVht9XHddfA#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGi6RH3nZEk#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHnu4jdr24k#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_IpxdM_F1I#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8lP6IAW1c#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okB8WfLBL3I

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I've got a deal for you where there's no unwanted cutting hands, electrocuting people to death, lashing, etc,

we'll send all the unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites -to america; and you send all the people who seek to obey God to the middle east and surroundings, then we all live happily ever after.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-22-2018, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The law of just retaliation is a check and balance which can be waved if there is the understanding that it is better to forgive, or accept a fine and forgive.

- - - Updated - - -





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVht9XHddfA#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGi6RH3nZEk#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHnu4jdr24k#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_IpxdM_F1I#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8lP6IAW1c#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okB8WfLBL3I
That is beautiful :'(.....that is beautiful....I want that....such simple life...I would give away all the material in the world to have that :'( to have a son of my own to live in Muslim country to say Asallaam...to hear athan...to live in rural area and feeding the chicken was so calming and relaxing....- wipes my eyes -.....I would give everything I have to live in a place like yours......I feeel I live in a country SURROUNDED BY ZOMBIES.....Western world is a zombie world!!! ZOMBIE WORLD!

I do not care for education.....as long as my knowledge in islam and know about the prophets and know the proper aqeeda and fiqh...that is the most important education on Earth. MATH, BIOLOGY, LITERATURE, PHYSICS, CHEMISTRY is nice...but if it i snot for sake of Allah and say Allah Akbar after learning them it is waste of time and worthless and to be honest...it is worldly thing and all it breeds is arrogance and...such knowledge is destructive not helpful. If I learning all of these is not for the proper intention to help Muslims and to bring people more closer to Allah...YOU HAVE SERIOUSLY WASTED YOUR CHILDREN'S TIME and your TIME for all these degrees and you bring children into depression mode if they fail in these courses you make them feel useless and stupid...why? Why do that? We human beings are living like the mass chickens in factories who are asked to lay eggs over and over and over until we die. Unnatural. Instead of free range chicken and roosters where they mate naturally and have their own babies and we take from there eggs...we abuse the chickens...guess what...we are the chickens. Everything here is mathematical and scripted...everything here is scientific and research and statistic ...everything is done by measurement and science....WE NO LONGER HUMANS. Everything is unnatural and we become an automated machines following a scripted routine like that you watch in TVs. Nothing human. Those videos you posted...have opened my heart and mind and made me feel human since a very long time....


PEOPLE ZOMBIE IS REAL! IT IS NOT FICTIONAL! ZOMBIES ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE:

A) Atheists
B) Mushrikeens
C) Hypocrites
D) Kuffars

Those are real zombies...they are TRULY THE WALKING UNDEAD
Reply

AabiruSabeel
09-22-2018, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
I was responding to someone who maybe didn't read my post about rape. I don't have a problem repeating over and over the same thing to different people who didn't participated in other threads.
You were not just repeating a problem to someone, rather you were making a repeated false claim after it was clearly debunked. Read the previous thread once again, and you will find that it was explained to you that adultery and rape are not the same under Islamic law.

When you lie against Islam or Muslims out of ignorance, and then you are presented with the correct information, you are not supposed to keep re-posting the same lies.

The incidents of Dubai or Qatar posted in those videos are just one side of the story. Every court has a procedure for crime investigation. Sharia law has its own procedure. Dubai courts or Qatar courts have their own procedure. If their investigations have found that the crime was not an actual rape, rather it was adultery, then you don't have a right to interfere in their ruling. Unless you are a member of the investigating team who can study all the presented evidences, record witness statements etc, you do not have a right to pass a judgement on their ruling.
Reply

Abz2000
09-22-2018, 10:09 PM
26. And those who reject/cover the just truth say: "Listen not to this Qur'an, but talk at random in the midst of its (reading), that ye may gain the upper hand!"

27. But We will certainly give those who reject/cover the just truth a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds.

28. Such is the requital of the enemies of Allah,- the Fire: therein will be for them the Eternal Home: a (fit) requital, for that they were wont to reject Our Signs.

29. And those who reject/cover the just truth will say: "Our Lord! Show us those, among Jinns and men, who misled us: We shall crush them beneath our feet, so that they become the vilest (before all)."

30. In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah., and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them: "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!

31. "We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter: therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!-

32. "A hospitable gift from one Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful!"

33. Who is better in speech than one who calls towards Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"?

34. Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!

35. And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,- none but persons of the greatest good fortune.

36. And if (at any time) an incitement to discord is made to thee by the Satan, seek refuge in Allah. He is the One Who hears and knows all things.

37. Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve.

38. But if they are arrogant, (no matter): for in the presence of thy Lord are those who celebrate His praises by night and by day. And they never flag (nor feel themselves above it).

39. And among His Signs in this: thou seest the earth barren and desolate; but when We send down rain to it, it is stirred to life and yields increase. Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth can surely give life to those who are dead. For He has power over all things.

40. Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better?- he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgment? Do what ye will: verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do.

41. Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power.

42. No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.

43. Nothing is said to thee that was not said to the messengers before thee: that thy lord has at his Command (all) forgiveness as well as a most Grievous Penalty.


From Quran, Chapter 41
Reply

Raymann
09-22-2018, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
Read the previous thread once again, and you will find that it was explained to you that adultery and rape are not the same under Islamic law.
You are barking at the wrong tree.
I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED THAT ADULTERY AND RAPE ARE THE SAME CRIME.
Maybe you should pay close attention to what is being said and ask questions when something is not clear to you.
It could be that I communicated in a way you couldn't comprehend, I'm an excellent writer as you should have noticed.
Let me explained again the point I have been trying to bring up:
It has been said that it is almost impossible to convict someone of adultery (4 witnesses).
Most adultery convictions happen when women (foreigners for the most part) accuse their rapist and by doing so the Islamic Justice system assumes the victim is admitting having sex with the rapist. If the rapist denies the accusation and by virtue that his word is worth double the woman's, then the rape charge is dismissed but adultery is now the charge (if she is married).
So you see, I don't believe rape and adultery are the same but one can easily bring the other.
By the way what I depicted above has been taken from real cases readily available in the internet.
I don't know if justice was done according to correct Islamic principle or not.
I only know this keeps happening in some Islamic countries using the same kind of thinking.
I hope this clears your confusion about what I meant.
Reply

Abz2000
09-23-2018, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
You are barking at the wrong tree.
I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED THAT ADULTERY AND RAPE ARE THE SAME CRIME.
Maybe you should pay close attention to what is being said and ask questions when something is not clear to you.
It could be that I communicated in a way you couldn't comprehend, I'm an excellent writer as you should have noticed.
Let me explained again the point I have been trying to bring up:
It has been said that it is almost impossible to convict someone of adultery (4 witnesses).
Most adultery convictions happen when women (foreigners for the most part) accuse their rapist and by doing so the Islamic Justice system assumes the victim is admitting having sex with the rapist. If the rapist denies the accusation and by virtue that his word is worth double the woman's, then the rape charge is dismissed but adultery is now the charge (if she is married).
So you see, I don't believe rape and adultery are the same but one can easily bring the other.
By the way what I depicted above has been taken from real cases readily available in the internet.
I don't know if justice was done according to correct Islamic principle or not.
I only know this keeps happening in some Islamic countries using the same kind of thinking.
I hope this clears your confusion about what I meant.


False accusation of rape is no small issue in Islam as it risks being manipulated into "execution by cop/judge" and therefore conspiracy and murder.
The Prophet :saws: did his best to get it right but it wasn't always perfect as will be demonstrated in the hadith below, and the legislation on the issue continued to develop as the state progressed.





FORT WORTH, Texas — An indictment has been issued in a fatal shooting that allegedly stemmed from a romantic tryst — not against the angry husband who fired the gun, but against his wife, who prosecutors say falsely claimed she was being raped.

Tracy Roberson was indicted on a manslaughter count Thursday in the death of Devin LaSalle. Legal experts said the argument for charging her and not her husband was unusual, but seemed reasonable.

"It certainly is different," George E. Dix, a law professor at the University of Texas at Austin, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "But the theory sounds perfectly acceptable to me."


http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17874088/n...ts-lover-dead/






Arlington mom who cried rape gets five years in slaying


https://www.star-telegram.com/latest...le3822650.html





The 19-year-old Long Island woman who filed a bogus rape complaint against two Sacred Heart University football players was sentenced Thursday to a year behind bars — and got a tongue lashing from the judge.

Nikki Yovino first told cops in October 2016 that the two players from the Fairfield, Connecticut, college forced her to have sex in a bathroom at a booze-filled party.

She later admitted that she made the charges up so her evident promiscuity wouldn’t alienate a potential boyfriend.


https://nypost.com/2018/08/23/woman-...ced-to-prison/




We see here that an innocent man almost lost his life based on the understanding that the woman was accurate in her statement and identification, but that she was absolved of the false accusation due to the fact that it was admitted by the perpetrator that she had indeed been violated against her will, and that her initial accusation was a case of mistaken identity:





Chapter: Regarding one deserving of the punishment coming to confess
(7)
باب فِي صَاحِبِ الْحَدِّ يَجِيءُ فَيُقِرُّ

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (ﷺ) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.

She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ).

When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Messenger of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.

Abu Dawud said: Asbat bin Nasr has also transmitted it from Simak.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى بْنِ فَارِسٍ، حَدَّثَنَا الْفِرْيَابِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا إِسْرَائِيلُ، حَدَّثَنَا سِمَاكُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، عَنْ عَلْقَمَةَ بْنِ وَائِلٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، أَنَّ امْرَأَةً، خَرَجَتْ عَلَى عَهْدِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم تُرِيدُ الصَّلاَةَ فَتَلَقَّاهَا رَجُلٌ فَتَجَلَّلَهَا فَقَضَى حَاجَتَهُ مِنْهَا فَصَاحَتْ وَانْطَلَقَ فَمَرَّ عَلَيْهَا رَجُلٌ فَقَالَتْ إِنَّ ذَاكَ فَعَلَ بِي كَذَا وَكَذَا وَمَرَّتْ عِصَابَةٌ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ فَقَالَتْ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ الرَّجُلَ فَعَلَ بِي كَذَا وَكَذَا ‏.‏ فَانْطَلَقُوا فَأَخَذُوا الرَّجُلَ الَّذِي ظَنَّتْ أَنَّهُ وَقَعَ عَلَيْهَا فَأَتَوْهَا بِهِ فَقَالَتْ نَعَمْ هُوَ هَذَا ‏.‏ فَأَتَوْا بِهِ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَلَمَّا أَمَرَ بِهِ قَامَ صَاحِبُهَا الَّذِي وَقَعَ عَلَيْهَا فَقَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَنَا صَاحِبُهَا ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ اذْهَبِي فَقَدْ غَفَرَ اللَّهُ لَكِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ لِلرَّجُلِ قَوْلاً حَسَنًا ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ يَعْنِي الرَّجُلَ الْمَأْخُوذَ وَقَالَ لِلرَّجُلِ الَّذِي وَقَعَ عَلَيْهَا ‏"‏ ارْجُمُوهُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ لَقَدْ تَابَ تَوْبَةً لَوْ تَابَهَا أَهْلُ الْمَدِينَةِ لَقُبِلَ مِنْهُمْ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ رَوَاهُ أَسْبَاطُ بْنُ نَصْرٍ أَيْضًا عَنْ سِمَاكٍ ‏.‏
حسن دون قوله ارجموه والأرجح أنه لم يرجم (الألباني) حكم :

Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4379
In-book reference : Book 40, Hadith 29
English translation : Book 39, Hadith 4366
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https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/29




We see here that even after the passing of the Prophet :saws: there was no certain law on the issue and that the governments were doing their best to do what was right by Allah :swt: whilst continually evaluating the specific circumstances and amending legislation.




Malik said, "The position with us about a woman who is found to be pregnant and has no husband and she says, 'I was forced,' or she says, 'I was married,' is that it is not accepted from her and the hadd is inflicted on her unless she has a clear proof of what she claims about the marriage or that she was forced or she comes bleeding if she was a virgin or she calls out for help so that someone comes to her and she is in that state or what resembles it of the situation in which the violation occurred." He said, "If she does not produce any of those, the hadd is inflicted on her and what she claims of that is not accepted from her."

Malik said, "A raped woman cannot marry until she has restored herself by three menstrual periods."

He said, "If she doubts her periods, she does not marry until she has freed herself of that doubt."

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 41, Hadith 16
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https://sunnah.com/urn/415900




مَعْتُوهَةُ - idiot

Idiot was formerly a legal and psychiatric category of profound intellectual disability, where a person's mental age is two years or less, and he or she cannot guard himself or herself against common physical dangers. Along with terms like moron, imbecile, and cretin, the term is now archaic and offensive,[1] and was replaced by the term profound mental retardation (which has itself since been replaced by other terms).

Nowadays, "idiot" is a derogatory term for a stupid or foolish person.




كتاب الحدود
40
Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
(16)
Chapter: If an insane person steals or commits a crime that is subject to a had
(16)
باب فِي الْمَجْنُونِ يَسْرِقُ أَوْ يُصِيبُ حَدًّا

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

AbuZubyan said: A woman who had committed adultery was brought to Umar. He gave orders that she should be stoned.

Ali passed by just then. He seized her and let her go. Umar was informed of it. He said: Ask Ali to come to me. Ali came to him and said: Commander of the Faithful, you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: There are three (people) whose actions are not recorded: A boy till he reaches puberty, a sleeper till he awakes, a lunatic till he is restored to reason. This is an idiot (mad) woman belonging to the family of so and so. Someone might have done this action with her when she suffered the fit of lunacy.

Umar said: I do not know. Ali said: I do not know.

حَدَّثَنَا هَنَّادٌ، عَنْ أَبِي الأَحْوَصِ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا عُثْمَانُ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا جَرِيرٌ، - الْمَعْنَى - عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ السَّائِبِ، عَنْ أَبِي ظَبْيَانَ، - قَالَ هَنَّادٌ - الْجَنْبِيِّ قَالَ أُتِيَ عُمَرُ بِامْرَأَةٍ قَدْ فَجَرَتْ فَأَمَرَ بِرَجْمِهَا فَمَرَّ عَلِيٌّ رضى الله عنه فَأَخَذَهَا فَخَلَّى سَبِيلَهَا فَأُخْبِرَ عُمَرُ قَالَ ادْعُوا لِي عَلِيًّا ‏.‏ فَجَاءَ عَلِيٌّ رضى الله عنه فَقَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ لَقَدْ عَلِمْتَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ رُفِعَ الْقَلَمُ عَنْ ثَلاَثَةٍ عَنِ الصَّبِيِّ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ وَعَنِ النَّائِمِ حَتَّى يَسْتَيْقِظَ وَعَنِ الْمَعْتُوهِ حَتَّى يَبْرَأَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَإِنَّ هَذِهِ مَعْتُوهَةُ بَنِي فُلاَنٍ لَعَلَّ الَّذِي أَتَاهَا أَتَاهَا وَهِيَ فِي بَلاَئِهَا ‏.‏ قَالَ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ لاَ أَدْرِي ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عَلِيٌّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ وَأَنَا لاَ أَدْرِي ‏.‏
صحيح دون قوله لعل الذي (الألباني) حكم :

Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4402
In-book reference : Book 40, Hadith 52
English translation : Book 39, Hadith 4388
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Limits and Punishments set by Allah (Hudood)
(37)
Chapter: The legal regulation for non-Muslims under the protection of a Muslim state
(37)
باب أَحْكَامِ أَهْلِ الذِّمَّةِ وَإِحْصَانِهِمْ إِذَا زَنَوْا وَرُفِعُوا إِلَى الإِمَامِ

Narrated Ash-Shaibani:

I asked `Abdullah bin Abi `Aufa about the Rajam (stoning somebody to death for committing illegal sexual intercourse). He replied, "The Prophet (ﷺ) carried out the penalty of Rajam," I asked, "Was that before or after the revelation of Surat-an-Nur?" He replied, "I do not know."

حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَاحِدِ، حَدَّثَنَا الشَّيْبَانِيُّ، سَأَلْتُ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ أَبِي أَوْفَى عَنِ الرَّجْمِ، فَقَالَ رَجَمَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏ فَقُلْتُ أَقَبْلَ النُّورِ أَمْ بَعْدَهُ قَالَ لاَ أَدْرِي‏.‏ تَابَعَهُ عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُسْهِرٍ وَخَالِدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ وَالْمُحَارِبِيُّ وَعَبِيدَةُ بْنُ حُمَيْدٍ عَنِ الشَّيْبَانِيِّ‏.‏ وَقَالَ بَعْضُهُمُ الْمَائِدَةُ‏.‏ وَالأَوَّلُ أَصَحُّ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6840
In-book reference : Book 86, Hadith 64
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 8, Book 82, Hadith 824
(deprecated numbering scheme)




Chapter: If a woman is compelled to commit illegal sexual intercourse against her will
(6)
باب إِذَا اسْتُكْرِهَتِ الْمَرْأَةُ عَلَى الزِّنَا، فَلاَ حَدَّ عَلَيْهَا
فِي قَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى: {وَمَنْ يُكْرِهْهُنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مِنْ بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ}.
And Safiyya bint 'Ubaid said:
"A governmental male-slave tried to seduce a slave-girl from the Khumus of the war booty till he deflowered her by force against her will; therefore 'Umar flogged him according to the law, and exiled him, but he did not flog the female slave because the male-slave had committed illegal sexual intercourse by force, against her will." Az-Zuhri said regarding a virgin slave-girl raped by a free man: The judge has to fine the adulterer as much money as is equal to the price of the female slave and the adulterer has to be flogged (according to the Islamic Law); but if the slave woman is a matron, then, according to the verdict of the Imam, the adulterer is not fined but he has to receive the legal punishment (according to the Islamic Law).

وَقَالَ اللَّيْثُ حَدَّثَنِي نَافِعٌ، أَنَّ صَفِيَّةَ ابْنَةَ أَبِي عُبَيْدٍ، أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ عَبْدًا مِنْ رَقِيقِ الإِمَارَةِ وَقَعَ عَلَى وَلِيدَةٍ مِنَ الْخُمُسِ، فَاسْتَكْرَهَهَا حَتَّى افْتَضَّهَا، فَجَلَدَهُ عُمَرُ الْحَدَّ وَنَفَاهُ، وَلَمْ يَجْلِدِ الْوَلِيدَةَ مِنْ أَجْلِ أَنَّهُ اسْتَكْرَهَهَا‏.‏ قَالَ الزُّهْرِيُّ فِي الأَمَةِ الْبِكْرِ، يَفْتَرِعُهَا الْحُرُّ، يُقِيمُ ذَلِكَ الْحَكَمُ مِنَ الأَمَةِ الْعَذْرَاءِ بِقَدْرِ قِيمَتِهَا، وَيُجْلَدُ، وَلَيْسَ فِي الأَمَةِ الثَّيِّبِ فِي قَضَاءِ الأَئِمَّةِ غُرْمٌ، وَلَكِنْ عَلَيْهِ الْحَدُّ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6949
In-book reference : Book 89, Hadith 10
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 85, Hadith 81
(deprecated numbering scheme)




22. When Joseph attained His full manhood, We gave him hukm (wisdom, discernment, judgement) and knowledge: thus do We reward those who do right.

23. But she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him from his (true) self: she fastened the doors, and said: "Now come, thou (dear one)!" He said: "(Allah) forbid! truly (thy husband) is my lord! he made my sojourn agreeable! truly to no good come those who do wrong!"

24. And (with passion) did she desire him, and he would have desired her, but that he saw the evidence of his Lord: thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and shameful deeds: for he was one of Our servants, sincere and purified.

25. So they both raced each other to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back: they both found her lord near the door. She said: "What is the (fitting) punishment for one who formed an evil design against thy wife, but prison or a grievous chastisement?"

26. He said: "It was she that sought to seduce me - from my (true) self." And one of her household saw (this) and bore witness, (thus):- "If it be that his shirt is rent from the front, then is her tale true, and he is a liar!

27. "But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth!"

28. So when he saw his shirt,- that it was torn at the back,- (her husband) said: "Behold! It is a snare of you women! truly, mighty is your snare!

29. "O Joseph, pass this over! (O wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin, for truly thou hast been at fault!"

30. Ladies said in the City: "The wife of the (great) 'Aziz is seeking to seduce her slave from his (true) self: Truly hath he inspired her with violent love: we see she is evidently going astray."

31. When she heard of their malicious talk, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them: she gave each of them a knife: and she said (to Joseph), "Come out before them." When they saw him, they did extol him, and (in their amazement) cut their hands: they said, "(Allah) preserve us! no mortal is this! this is none other than a noble angel!"

32. She said: "There before you is the man about whom ye did blame me! I did seek to seduce him from his (true) self but he did firmly save himself guiltless!....and now, if he doth not my bidding, he shall certainly be cast into prison, and (what is more) be of the company of the vilest!"

33. He said: "O my Lord! the prison is more to my liking than that to which they invite me: Unless Thou turn away their snare from me, I should (in my youthful folly) feel inclined towards them and join the ranks of the ignorant."

34. So his Lord hearkened to him (in his prayer), and turned away from him their snare: Verily He heareth and knoweth (all things).

35. Then it occurred to the men, after they had seen the signs, (that it was best) to imprison him for a time.

36. Now with him there came into the prison two young men. Said one of them: "I see myself (in a dream) pressing wine." said the other: "I see myself (in a dream) carrying bread on my head, and birds are eating, thereof." "Tell us" (they said) "The truth and meaning thereof: for we see thou art one that doth good (to all)."

37. He said: "Before any food comes (in due course) to feed either of you, I will surely reveal to you the truth and meaning of this ere it befall you: that is part of the (duty) which my Lord hath taught me. I have (I assure you) abandoned the ways of a people that believe not in Allah and that (even) deny the Hereafter.

38. "And I follow the ways of my fathers,- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and never could we attribute any partners whatever to Allah. that (comes) of the grace of Allah to us and to mankind: yet most men are not grateful.

39. "O my two companions of the prison! (I ask you): are many lords differing among themselves better, or the One Allah, Supreme and Irresistible?

40. "If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah. He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not...

41. "O my two companions of the prison! As to one of you, he will pour out the wine for his lord to drink: as for the other, he will hang from the cross, and the birds will eat from off his head. (so) hath been decreed that matter whereof ye twain do enquire"...

42. And of the two, to that one whom he consider about to be saved, he said: "Mention me to thy lord." But Satan made him forget to mention him to his lord: and (Joseph) lingered in prison a few (more) years.

43. The king (of Egypt) said: "I do see (in a vision) seven fat kine, whom seven lean ones devour, and seven green ears of corn, and seven (others) withered. O ye chiefs! Expound to me my vision if it be that ye can interpret visions."

44. They said: "A confused medley of dreams: and we are not skilled in the interpretation of dreams."

45. But the man who had been released, one of the two (who had been in prison) and who now bethought him after (so long) a space of time, said: "I will tell you the truth of its interpretation: send ye me (therefore)."

46. "O Joseph!" (he said) "O man of truth! Expound to us (the dream) of seven fat kine whom seven lean ones devour, and of seven green ears of corn and (seven) others withered: that I may return to the people, and that they may understand."

47. (Joseph) said: "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont: and the harvests that ye reap, ye shall leave them in the ear,- except a little, of which ye shall eat.

48. "Then will come after that (period) seven dreadful (years), which will devour what ye shall have laid by in advance for them,- (all) except a little which ye shall have (specially) guarded.

49. "Then will come after that (period) a year in which the people will have abundant water, and in which they will press (wine and oil)."

50. So the king said: "Bring ye him unto me." But when the messenger came to him, (Joseph) said: "Go thou back to thy lord, and ask him, 'What is the state of mind of the ladies who cut their hands'? For my Lord is certainly well aware of their snare."

51. (The king) said (to the ladies): "What was your affair when ye did seek to seduce Joseph from his (true) self?" The ladies said: "(Allah) preserve us! no evil know we against him!" Said the 'Aziz's wife: "Now is the truth manifest (to all): it was I who sought to seduce him from his (true) self: He is indeed of those who are (ever) true (and virtuous).

52. "This (say I), in order that He may know that I have never been false to him in his absence, and that Allah will never guide the snare of the false ones.

53. "Nor do I absolve my own self (of blame): the (human) soul is certainly prone to evil, unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy: but surely my Lord is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful."

54. So the king said: "Bring him unto me; I will take him specially to serve about my own person." Therefore when he had spoken to him, he said: "Be assured this day, thou art, before our own presence, with rank firmly established, and fidelity fully proved!

55. (Joseph) said: "Set me over the store-houses of the land: I will indeed guard them, as one that knows (their importance)."

56. Thus did We give established power to Joseph in the land, to take possession therein as, when, or where he pleased. We bestow of our Mercy on whom We please, and We suffer not, to be lost, the reward of those who do good.

57. But verily the reward of the Hereafter is the best, for those who believe, and are constant in righteousness.

58. Then came Joseph's brethren: they entered his presence, and he knew them, but they knew him not.



From Quran, Chapter 12




14. When he reached full age, and was firmly established (in life), We bestowed on him hukm (wisdom, discernment, judgement) and knowledge: for thus do We reward those who do good.

15. And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: "This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"

16. He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So ((Allah)) forgave him: for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

17. He said: "O my Lord! For that Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace on me, never shall I be a help to those who sin!"

18. So he saw the morning in the city, looking about, in a state of fear, when behold, the man who had, the day before, sought his help called aloud for his help (again). Moses said to him: "Thou art truly, it is clear, a quarrelsome fellow!"

19. Then, when he decided to lay hold of the man who was an enemy to both of them, that man said: "O Moses! Is it thy intention to slay me as thou slewest a man yesterday? Thy intention is none other than to become a powerful violent man in the land, and not to be one who sets things right!"

20. And there came a man, running, from the furthest end of the City. He said: "O Moses! the Chiefs are taking counsel together about thee, to slay thee: so get thee away, for I do give thee sincere advice."

21. He therefore got away therefrom, looking about, in a state of fear. He prayed "O my Lord! save me from people given to wrong-doing."

22. Then, when he turned his face towards (the land of) Madyan, he said: "I do hope that my Lord will show me the smooth and straight Path."

23. And when he arrived at the watering (place) in Madyan, he found there a group of men watering (their flocks), and besides them he found two women who were keeping back (their flocks). He said: "What is the matter with you?" They said: "We cannot water (our flocks) until the shepherds take back (their flocks): And our father is a very old man."

24. So he watered (their flocks) for them; then he turned back to the shade, and said:"O my Lord! truly am I in (desperate) need of any good that Thou dost send me!"

25. Afterwards one of the (damsels) came (back) to him, walking bashfully. She said: "My father invites thee that he may reward thee for having watered (our flocks) for us." So when he came to him and narrated the story, he said: "Fear thou not: (well) hast thou escaped from unjust people."

26. Said one of the (damsels): "O my (dear) father! engage him on wages: truly the best of men for thee to employ is the (man) who is strong and trusty"....

27. He said: "I intend to wed one of these my daughters to thee, on condition that thou serve me for eight years; but if thou complete ten years, it will be (grace) from thee. But I intend not to place thee under a difficulty: thou wilt find me, indeed, if Allah wills, one of the righteous."

28. He said: "Be that (the agreement) between me and thee: whichever of the two terms I fulfil, let there be no ill-will to me. Be Allah a witness to what we say."


From Quran, Chapter 28
Reply

Zafran
09-23-2018, 12:50 AM

1 - where is the case file - it seems she didn't have any evidence for rape, what happen to the men?

2 - alleged rape couldn't prove it in Court it seems.

3 - he says she says case with zero evidence.

Due process and presumption of innocence is corner stone of Justice - these all seem to be sensationalized media coverage without any evidence of case files. The same would be needed in any court, furthermore false rape accusation should also be taken inconsideration here. This sort of media coverage happens every where.

Famous one in the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/football...-of-in-retrial

Jimmy savile

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...aedophile.html

Of course there is Cosby, Trump, weinstein, Rolf Harris, Max Cliifford, Polanski (still not convicted) countless men that have been hard to put behind bars because of lack of evidence or fear of powerful retribution.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Raymann
t has been said that it is almost impossible to convict someone of adultery (4 witnesses).
Most adultery convictions happen when women (foreigners for the most part) accuse their rapist and by doing so the Islamic Justice system assumes the victim is admitting having sex with the rapist.
The presumption of innocence happens in any court - the burden of proof is on the person claiming the crime, Name me one justice system that does or even can function otherwise. What would be interesting is to see where the cases actually broke and why the lawyers pleaded for sex outside marriage rather then take the false accusation hit. Or why the proof wasn't strong enough to convict the alleged rapist. Or of miscarriage of Justice actually did take place.

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Originally Posted by Raymann
If the rapist denies the accusation and by virtue that his word is worth double the woman's, then the rape charge is dismissed but adultery is now the charge (if she is married)
Presumption of innocence - if a women claimed you raped her the burden lies with her to prove it - or do we just lock you up?

Its not adultery its false rape accusation which is serious in any place on earth.
Reply

Raymann
09-23-2018, 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
I've got a deal for you where there's no unwanted cutting hands, electrocuting people to death, lashing, etc,

we'll send all the unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites -to america; and you send all the people who seek to obey God to the middle east and surroundings, then we all live happily ever after.
Is that an admission that the middle east is full of "unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites" ???

What gave you the impression that the believers (all denominations, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc) would accept such a proposal???
Especially the non-Muslims, they would beg in their knees not to be sent. The Middle East and Hell Fire don't look too different from here.
Reply

Raymann
09-23-2018, 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Presumption of innocence - if a women claimed you raped her the burden lies with her to prove it - or do we just lock you up?
I understand your point, let's try another one:

As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery.

Do you risk your daughter's life by trusting Islamic Justice???
or go the safe rout and forget this ever happened???
Reply

xboxisdead
09-23-2018, 04:00 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
1 - where is the case file - it seems she didn't have any evidence for rape, what happen to the men?


Presumption of innocence - if a women claimed you raped her the burden lies with her to prove it - or do we just lock you up?

Its not adultery its false rape accusation which is serious in any place on earth.

By the way that is exactly what is happening in USA and any Western world. In USA..the woman's word is the law, in USA and Canada her law is even above Allah's law (athubillah). She can do any false allegation of rape anytime she wants to despise her husband, boyfriend any male human she encounters and the man is immediately locked up and goes to prison and he becomes a felon, loses custody or rights of his children, loses his job, and he loses his reputation!

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Raymann
Is that an admission that the middle east is full of "unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites" ???

What gave you the impression that the believers (all denominations, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc) would accept such a proposal???
Especially the non-Muslims, they would beg in their knees not to be sent. The Middle East and Hell Fire don't look too different from here.
You are already a disbeliever so whatever you say that is not shahada will not make you a believer. You have not seen Hell Fire. The second...and millisecond you enter it...you will find everything on this Earth a paradise to you...including Middle East.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Raymann
I understand your point, let's try another one:

As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery.

Do you risk your daughter's life by trusting Islamic Justice???
or go the safe rout and forget this ever happened???
You are a full blown troll. You use hot topics like rape, child molestation, etc to be ultra-dramatic and to look like you are the white knight or win a case. Well let me tell you that...we will play your game and will use this as means of educational to new generation and the uneducated and we will win, Insha'Allah, and you WILL LOSE Insha'Allah. Ok? - pats raymann on the head - Good boy!
Reply

AabiruSabeel
09-23-2018, 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
You are barking at the wrong tree.
I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED THAT ADULTERY AND RAPE ARE THE SAME CRIME.
Maybe you should pay close attention to what is being said and ask questions when something is not clear to you.
It could be that I communicated in a way you couldn't comprehend, I'm an excellent writer as you should have noticed.
Let me explained again the point I have been trying to bring up:
It has been said that it is almost impossible to convict someone of adultery (4 witnesses).
*Let me explain the point I have been trying to bring up once again. Or let me re-explain the point I have been trying to bring up. An excellent writer does not forget his grammar in the next sentence.

Who says you believed adultery and rape are the same? You said rape victims would not bother pressing charges because "pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery". So you are implying here that in Islamic law, a rapist as well as the rape victim could be tried with adultery if the rapist is not convicted of rape. Is that not clear your statements? Read it again:
Originally Posted by Raymann
There is one dilema, every Muslim woman that is raped, would not even bother pressing charges against the rapist.
Why ? As you mention, to prove adultery 4 witnesses are needed (very unlikely possibility) but pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery.
And this was already explained to you that rape and adultery are two separate crimes with different requirements for proving them in a court. Adultery requires 4 witnesses, whereas rape does not.

So I don't see how justice is accomplished here.
Maybe you are blind?

Men know very well the rules and I'm pretty sure they're taking full advantage of the flaws.
A baseless assumption.

Another problem are foreign women who don't dress appropriately to Islamic standards, they get raped all the time
another baseless assumption. A handful of isolated cases are not statistically sufficient to call it "all the time".

Bottom line, the statistics might say there is very low crime rate but reality is a total different thing.
another claim based on false assumptions.

If the rapist denies the accusation and by virtue that his word is worth double the woman's, then the rape charge is dismissed but adultery is now the charge (if she is married).
Double worth does not apply here. It applies for testimony, not for denial of an accusation. Claim and denial has different procedures for establishing them in a court (in absence of evidence).


Originally Posted by Raymann
Rape, adultery, fornication are topics very much in our daily lives right now so I don't see why we should restrain ourselves from talking about what we want to talk.
Maybe in your lives, but not in Muslims lives for sure.


Originally Posted by Raymann
Especially the non-Muslims, they would beg in their knees not to be sent. The Middle East and Hell Fire don't look too different from here.
You would be surprised at the number of non-Muslims living in Dubai, or anywhere else in the Middle-East. They enjoy tax-free high ranging income and are looting Muslims' resources.

Originally Posted by Raymann
I understand your point, let's try another one:
Answer the question first, before trying another.

As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery.

Do you risk your daughter's life by trusting Islamic Justice???
or go the safe rout and forget this ever happened???
Under Islamic law, a rape victim can kill the rapist on the spot, without any repercussions.
Reply

Raymann
09-23-2018, 04:59 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
You are a full blown troll. You use hot topics like rape, child molestation, etc to be ultra-dramatic and to look like you are the white knight or win a case. Well let me tell you that...we will play your game and will use this as means of educational to new generation and the uneducated and we will win, Insha'Allah, and you WILL LOSE Insha'Allah. Ok? - pats raymann on the head - Good boy!
I don't know why you're getting all bent out of shape.
I do ask a lot of questions because I'm curious. I left Catholicism when nobody could no longer answer my questions.
Is that scenario that I asked about so difficult to answer.
Are you saying that Muslims themselves don't ask these kind of questions.
How is that possible?
How would they figure out what to do in all these possible scenarios???
That could easily be a real situation.

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Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
So you are implying here that in Islamic law, a rapist as well as the rape victim could be tried with adultery if the rapist is not convicted of rape.
No, I'm not implying it, I am absolutely and positively affirming that has happened over and over in Islamic Countries and the videos I provided are proof of what I'm saying. So yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Did you finally get it???

Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
Another problem are foreign women who don't dress appropriately to Islamic standards, they get raped all the time
another baseless assumption. A handful of isolated cases are not statistically sufficient to call it "all the time".
Are you in denial ??? I showed you a few videos and in some of them they specifically say that "this happens all the time".
I am not that creative to invent things on the fly. I research, study and ask questions.

Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
Double worth does not apply here. It applies for testimony, not for denial of an accusation. Claim and denial has different procedures for establishing them in a court (in absence of evidence).
Thanks for the information but apparently it didn't matter, the rape charge was dismissed and adultery was charged to the foreign woman.
So what is your expert explanation???
She went to the police to claim she had been raped and end up being charged instead with adultery.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-23-2018, 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
I don't know why you're getting all bent out of shape.
I do ask a lot of questions because I'm curious. I left Catholicism when nobody could no longer answer my questions.
Is that scenario that I asked about so difficult to answer.
Are you saying that Muslims themselves don't ask these kind of questions.
How is that possible?
How would they figure out what to do in all these possible scenarios???
That could easily be a real situation.

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No, I'm not implying it, I am absolutely and positively affirming that has happened over and over in Islamic Countries and the videos I provided are proof of what I'm saying. So yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Did you finally get it???



Are you in denial ??? I showed you a few videos and in some of them they specifically say that "this happens all the time".
I am not that creative to invent things on the fly. I research, study and ask questions.



Thanks for the information but apparently it didn't matter, the rape charge was dismissed and adultery was charged to the foreign woman.
So what is your expert explanation???
She went to the police to claim she had been raped and end up being charged instead with adultery.
If you are asking these questions to learn and find the truth so that if it satisfied you that you will actually go ahead and become a believing Muslim...please go ahead and keep answering. But if you are asking for just asking and you find that our questions does not reach your satisfactory level then you will find that the highest level aleem and shiekh will not linger in forums. Best bet is to go ahead and seek the most intellectual and knowledgeable person out there who will help you. I am hoping however...that such time consumed to have obtained all that knowledge will not be wasted and that one day someone else ask you about how Islam deals with such and such case and you tell them what you learned and then THAT person will be so satisfied that he or she will run to the nearest mosque to know how to become a Muslim.

THEN TO ME all of this...from page 1 up until now would been worth it. But if AFTER ALL OF THAT you just throw it into the trash bin...then my advice: stop wasting our time!

HOWEVER...I will retract my word and say this is a public forum...other people will be reading this and learn from it! I will take whatever negative energy emanating from here and turn it into a positive one. I hope the youth will learn from reading all of this...but let me finalize it with this: we are not as knowledgeable as the scholars and as such...we...will...not....be...able to answer ALL your questions. So at that point...seek your knowledge by going out and finding a Muslim scholar who can answer them all.
Reply

eesa the kiwi
09-23-2018, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
I don't know why you're getting all bent out of shape.
I do ask a lot of questions because I'm curious. I left Catholicism when nobody could no longer answer my questions.
Is that scenario that I asked about so difficult to answer.
Are you saying that Muslims themselves don't ask these kind of questions.
How is that possible?
How would they figure out what to do in all these possible scenarios???
That could easily be a real situation.

- - - Updated - - -



No, I'm not implying it, I am absolutely and positively affirming that has happened over and over in Islamic Countries and the videos I provided are proof of what I'm saying. So yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Did you finally get it???



Are you in denial ??? I showed you a few videos and in some of them they specifically say that "this happens all the time".
I am not that creative to invent things on the fly. I research, study and ask questions.



Thanks for the information but apparently it didn't matter, the rape charge was dismissed and adultery was charged to the foreign woman.
So what is your expert explanation???
She went to the police to claim she had been raped and end up being charged instead with adultery.
OK there is a simple concept that you are missing. Pretty sure it's been said multiple times

I'm going to say it slowly, are you ready?

Stop

Confusing

Islam

And

Muslims


You are blaming Islam for what happens in Muslim countries when the leadership and regime can from the most corrupt on the planet. A good example of this is Iran or syria

Under Islamic law the rapist would be executed. Nothing would happen to the woman

For a guy who thinks he's clever you're a terrible listener actually SubhanAllah you remind me of the verses in the Qurān where Allah talks about setting a seal on the disbelievers hearts
Reply

Raymann
09-23-2018, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
You are blaming Islam for what happens in Muslim countries
No, I'm not, not intentionally, sometimes it might look like that but let me assure you that I don't think the misjudgments done by the Islamic Justice system are Islam's fault but from the people who are supposed to interpret and implement the regulations.
In the example we've been using, a woman goes to the police to report she's been raped. The police takes her report and from it assumes she is admitting having sex with the rapist. At the end they're charged with adultery and the rape accusation is dismissed.
I don't know enough details about the case and cannot blame Islam but I do know something is wrong.
Justice was not served.
As Muslims I'd like you to tell me what went wrong ???
You know better than me the rules and Islamic procedures.
The possibility that women can be charged with "Adultery or Fornication" after they report being raped makes no sense to me.
A Muslim on another site responded this way:
"Muslim women know better and would never bother pressing charges against the rapist"
That is so wrong, meaning, rape victims have no chance of getting justice.
Who's to blame, I'm not going to make accusations.
You as a Muslim, who do you blame ???
Reply

Abz2000
09-23-2018, 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
A Muslim on another site responded this way:
"Muslim women know better and would never bother pressing charges against the rapist"
That is so wrong, meaning, rape victims have no chance of getting justice.
Who's to blame, I'm not going to make accusations.
You as a Muslim, who do you blame ???
Would you care to provide us the name of the site and your username?
That way we can get an idea of the questions you've been asking there, doc always prefers a medical history to get a better idea of the patients disease - because his time is precious.





123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

124. Whenever there cometh down a sura, some of them say: "Which of you has had His faith increased by it?" Yea, those who believe,- their faith is increased and they do rejoice.

125. But those in whose hearts is a disease,- it will add doubt to their doubt, and they will die in a state of Unbelief.

126. See they not that they are tried every year once or twice? Yet they turn not in repentance, and they take no heed.

127. Whenever there cometh down a Sura, they look at each other, (saying), "Doth anyone see you?" Then they turn aside: Allah hath turned their hearts (from the light); for they are a people that understand not.

128. Now hath come unto you an Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.

129. But if they turn away, Say: "(Allah) sufficeth me: there is no god but He: On Him is my trust,- He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!"
Reply

Abz2000
09-23-2018, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Is that an admission that the middle east is full of "unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites" ???
There are some who are under the influence of corruption - though they are in the minority, and there are many people in America who seek to obey and serve God, and wouldn't take long to migrate once the distinction is clear.

Originally Posted by Raymann
What gave you the impression that the believers (all denominations, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc) would accept such a proposal???
People who seek to obey God will choose their place, and people who seek to commit crimes will choose their place.

Originally Posted by Raymann
Especially the non-Muslims, they would beg in their knees not to be sent.
They would be able choose, and the states would be able to exile to the appropriate place.

Originally Posted by Raymann
The Middle East and Hell Fire don't look too different from here.

That is because the dajjal has confused and blinded you as to the reality of eternity with a wink and an annuit.


https://en.www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah

Reply

Alamgir
09-23-2018, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
There has never been a perfect or close to perfect Islamic State.
Yes there has, one example of an exemplary Islamic nation is the Rashidun Khilafah.

I can easily name numerous other empires that got pretty close to being of the same standard, e.g the Shah Mir Sultanate, the Almohad Khilafah and the Mughals under Aurangzeb Alamgir.
Reply

Abz2000
09-23-2018, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
Yes there has, one example of a perfect Islamic nation is the Rashidun Khilafah.

I can easily name numerous other empires that got pretty close to being a perfect Islamic nation, e.g the Shah Mir Sultanate, the Almohad Khilafah and the Mughals under Aurangzeb Alamgir.

i wouldn't say that any of them - including those of the Prophets :saws: were perfect - since perfection is an attribute unique to Allah :swt: - and since perfection would mean that nobody makes any mistakes - and the reasoning behind the laws become obsolete.
What is aimed at is a sincere will to do what is best in Allah :swt: 's sight -whilst continually learning and improving.
The requirement is to come down heavily on corrupters who lie and seek to thereby misguide others.
An example of a corrupt and criminal system is one which hires internet trolls and spies to hide their allegiances and to confuse people as they are continually bombarded with undeniable falsehood, such as the israeli state - if it was sincere and LEGITIMATE, it's representatives would have stated their allegiances and the fact that they are paid to work p.r , but instead they demonstrate their despicability by continually lying to the people of the planet whilst setting up an empire for rothschild domination.


https://www.islamicboard.com/world-a...ml#post1542364

Bulls**t is used as a catchall term for information that is untrue, unreliable, or will otherwise let you down when push comes to shove.
Bulls**t isn't exactly the same as willful deception, misinformation, or propaganda, although it can and does include those things. Bulls**t is about a narrative operating independently of any*concern for truth.........


Anti Islamic propaganda!Thousands of Youtube videos willifies people to believe Lies.
Reply

Raymann
09-23-2018, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
There has never been a perfect or close to perfect Islamic State.

Yes there has, one example of an exemplary Islamic nation is the Rashidun Khilafah.
The Rashidun Caliphate is characterized by a twenty-five year period of rapid military expansion, followed by a five-year period of internal strife.
That doesn't sound like a very harmonious and peaceful place, doesn't it?

Shah Mir SultanateCouldn't find telling information

Aurangzeb cancelled eighty taxes and reimposed jizya on non-Muslims which was cancelled by his ancestors.Aurangzeb acted boldly upon the Islamic commandments and therefore eliminated the idolatrous festivals, such as Nowruz celebrations. He banned lengthy eulogies at the time of attendance at court and allowed only the Islamic greeting of salam. Likewise he banned the import of liquor and drove out musicians and singers from the court.
Following 1725 the empire declined rapidly, weakened by wars of succession, agrarian crises fueling local revolts, the growth of religious intolerance, the rise of Maratha Empire as well as Durrani Empire and Sikh Empire, and finally British colonialism. The last king, Bahadur Zafar Shah II, whose rule was restricted to the city of Delhi, was imprisoned and exiled by the British after the Indian Rebellion of 1857.

Not very impressed, I must say.Any western country today might be a better place to live than any of those but that is just me saying it.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-23-2018, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
The Rashidun Caliphate is characterized by a twenty-five year period of rapid military expansion, followed by a five-year period of internal strife.
That doesn't sound like a very harmonious and peaceful place, doesn't it?

Shah Mir SultanateCouldn't find telling information

Aurangzeb cancelled eighty taxes and reimposed jizya on non-Muslims which was cancelled by his ancestors.Aurangzeb acted boldly upon the Islamic commandments and therefore eliminated the idolatrous festivals, such as Nowruz celebrations. He banned lengthy eulogies at the time of attendance at court and allowed only the Islamic greeting of salam. Likewise he banned the import of liquor and drove out musicians and singers from the court.
Following 1725 the empire declined rapidly, weakened by wars of succession, agrarian crises fueling local revolts, the growth of religious intolerance, the rise of Maratha Empire as well as Durrani Empire and Sikh Empire, and finally British colonialism. The last king, Bahadur Zafar Shah II, whose rule was restricted to the city of Delhi, was imprisoned and exiled by the British after the Indian Rebellion of 1857.

Not very impressed, I must say.Any western country today might be a better place to live than any of those but that is just me saying it.
Your Western world is no better than any place out there on Earth. You have this great illusion that for some apparent reason a utopia on Earth is possible and there will be a real paradise on Earth. Impossible. There can never be true perfection on Earth. There can never be paradise on Earth..just impossible. Even if such task where feasible that is for the disbelievers only...paradise on Earth...pure utopia is for the disbelievers only and not for Muslims. For us Muslims this world is a prison..jail cell....behind bars with shackles on our legs. We the Muslim are striving to have the highest level of paradise Insha'Allah in the afterlife...we are not suppose to build here and leave the other life..that role of building here only is the job of the disbelievers and hypocrites...that is what they are here to do. Camp their life here and be happy here in this world...you can have your Western utopia world Raymann I am leaving to the imperfect world you are talking about soon..Insha'Allah.

I don't want nothing to do with this utopia world for me thanks...I am intending to strive to build for the afterlife...and not this world.

Another thing:



As long as you paying your taxes to your master Raymann you can be the cow that can herd on the field and be productive to your master...you can go mooooo and poop and piss and eat the grass and sit on your large field and jump up and down happily in your delusional world and go moooo all you want for your master, who own you and will benefit from your productivity...as for me......I am out of this world.
Reply

Futuwwa
09-23-2018, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
There is one dilema, every Muslim woman that is raped, would not even bother pressing charges against the rapist.
Why ? As you mention, to prove adultery 4 witnesses are needed (very unlikely possibility) but pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery. So I don't see how justice is accomplished here. Men know very well the rules and I'm pretty sure they're taking full advantage of the flaws.
Another problem are foreign women who don't dress appropriately to Islamic standards, they get raped all the time and by not knowing the rules they press charges and get charged with adultery.
Lucky for them 100% sharia is not implemented so they pay with a few years in jail. Totally unfair.
Bottom line, the statistics might say there is very low crime rate but reality is a total different thing.
I already answered this on the very first thread you started here, the one about "rape culture", yet here you keep saying exactly the same thing as then.

Not sure why anyone should engage you if you will just keep pushing the same predetermined propaganda talking points, and ignore any answers that don't create a rhetorical opening for you to advance whatever agenda you might have.
Reply

Zafran
09-24-2018, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery.
On what grounds would the women be charged with adultery and why would the man admit to adultery when the punishment is so harsh? what other proofs are there breaking and entering? messages of a continues relationship, DNA past crimes etc. Like any court of law there has to be evidence to convict someone.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Raymann
Do you risk your daughter's life by trusting Islamic Justice???
On what grounds?


Originally Posted by Raymann
or go the safe rout and forget this ever happened???
how is that safe? the rapist would probably go on like it does in India and powerful men like Savile in the UK.
Reply

Raymann
09-24-2018, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Raymann "As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery".
Let's try again. When a woman reports rape has been committed against her the police is going to assume she is confessing having unlawful sex with the rapist. No need to prove adultery when she has already confessed. Get it ??
The case continues as usual. In most cases rape is not going to be proved. (statistics show is very difficult to prove rape)
Here's the problem.
The woman has already confessed having unlawful sex with the rapist. There's no need for witnesses nor proof.
This is what's been happening to foreign women while in islamic countries.
So what would you do as a Muslim?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
I already answered this on the very first thread you started here, the one about "rape culture", yet here you keep saying exactly the same thing as then.
And I salute you for your response in that thread. Yours was the best answer I had so far, but this is part of what you said:

but a not-guilty verdict for rape doesn't result in an automatic guilty verdict for adultery.
That is partially true, the fact is that a woman reporting rape is automatically admitting unlawful sex with the rapist.
It's up to the prosecutors if they want to charge the woman with adultery or fornication, they already have her confession so no need for witnesses nor proof, easy case.
That's the huge flaw nobody seems to like talking about.
I guess all I want is to hear someone admitting there's a problem here and foreign women are the ones paying for it.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-24-2018, 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Let's try again. When a woman reports rape has been committed against her the police is going to assume she is confessing having unlawful sex with the rapist. No need to prove adultery when she has already confessed. Get it ??
The case continues as usual. In most cases rape is not going to be proved. (statistics show is very difficult to prove rape)
Here's the problem.
The woman has already confessed having unlawful sex with the rapist. There's no need for witnesses nor proof.
This is what's been happening to foreign women while in islamic countries.
So what would you do as a Muslim?

- - - Updated - - -



And I salute you for your response in that thread. Yours was the best answer I had so far, but this is part of what you said:



That is partially true, the fact is that a woman reporting rape is automatically admitting unlawful sex with the rapist.
It's up to the prosecutors if they want to charge the woman with adultery or fornication, they already have her confession so no need for witnesses nor proof, easy case.
That's the huge flaw nobody seems to like talking about.
I guess all I want is to hear someone admitting there's a problem here and foreign women are the ones paying for it.
Well anyone who is leaving their country and going to foreign place must be ready for what they receive in that place. They need to study the laws and regulations and obey them correctly without objection much like Western world require strangers who come to their place to obey their laws, don't you agree? So a foreign women who want to avoid any problem observe the dress code of the native women in there and wear them themselves. If anything...it is a form of respect to the country you are entering in. Whether YOU believe that is women oppression or not...that is irrelevant what you believe....you come to a foreign country and you don't respect the laws, religion and culture of that country and then when something wrong happens you come back and attack the country and say it is defective and Western world is the way to go only shows how arrogant you are.

Let us say for example...in your county a person breaking into someone's home will result for you to be shot and killed and that is the law in your country...so I go ahead and break into your home in your country and I got shot and killed and then do a stink about how this is unfair and how there is issue for people who go ahead and break into people's homes and how they got shot instead of going to court and be trailed that way....I mean...:facepalm::facepalm:...

Foreign women coming to Islamic country wearing in bikini and expect to walk in the street as if she is walking in new york and the native people of their own country must give away just because she is western and not expect her to get harmed in anyway and we are suppose to what...say there is something wrong with Islamic law and we have to fight for foreign women's right and issues in Islamic country and the Islamic countries my kowtow to her lager for her to do whatever she wants just because she is foreign women? She comes to Muslim country she covers her body...please. Cover her hair...please. Don't be dancing on the street and pretend she is a man so she can do whatever her heart desires as if she is in USA. She wants to be a man and rip her shirt open and pound fist on her chest and go Aaaaawwwww like tarzan she can do that in USA, not in Islamic country please.
Reply

Abz2000
09-24-2018, 05:25 AM
I see xbox is still dead.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-24-2018, 05:28 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
I see xbox is still dead.
hehehhe!!

I am glad it is dead too - grin -
Reply

Abz2000
09-24-2018, 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
hehehhe!!

I am glad it is dead too - grin -
I wish it doesn't come to life until it sees its just dues - sooner rather than later ....unless it repents quickly and follows Allah's way.
Reply

Raymann
09-24-2018, 07:25 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
Foreign women coming to Islamic country wearing in bikini and expect to walk in the street as if she is walking in new york and the native people of their own country must give away just because she is western and not expect her to get harmed in anyway
Keep avoiding my main point, It's ok, I'll get you one way or another.
First of all, you're assuming foreign women are getting raped because they're not complying with Islamic dress code.
Yes, that might be truth, they have that crazy idea that Islamic Countries are not jungles and that people are not animals.
What were they thinking???

To my main point:
The fact is that women run the risk of being charged with adultery every time they press charges against a rapist.
A RAPE CHARGE CAN EASILY TURN INTO AN ADULTERY CONVICTION.
As I explained this is because the police assumes they have admitted unlawful sex when they reported the rape case.
THIS IS THE CASE FOR FOREIGNERS AS WELL AS FOR MUSLIM WOMEN.
The dress code is not and excuse here.
One more time:
Don't you think is unfair that women risk being charged with adultery when reporting rape???
Is that something the Muslim community cares about???
I've been talking about it and even today I noticed some Muslims don't know what I'm talking about.
Many Muslims get mad I keep talking about it and want me to shut up, why???
Reply

Futuwwa
09-24-2018, 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
That is partially true, the fact is that a woman reporting rape is automatically admitting unlawful sex with the rapist.
No, she isn't. She is "admitting" to having been raped, which is not unlawful for her, just for him. If the trial ends up inconclusively and neither rape nor consensual sex is proven, she should not be convicted. Why don't you conduct a little poll to find out that pretty much every Muslim would agree that that's how it's supposed to work?

Originally Posted by Raymann
I guess all I want is to hear someone admitting there's a problem here and foreign women are the ones paying for it.
Dude, pretty much everyone here recognizes that such miscarriages of justice do happen. What pretty much everyone is saying is that they are due to judicial corruption, not due to sharia working like it's supposed to, but you just won't take that for an answer.
Reply

urkahnkhan
09-24-2018, 08:35 AM
I can tell you 100s of different reasons why but the bottom-line of all is that the Universe and whatever is between them the Galaxies, Multiple universes etc etc and everything belongs to the one who legislates the Sharia-Law itself hence why it's a divine law not a man made law or something someone came with from his own pocket. There is not a single creature alive that he has not created and breathe soul into.

Are we saying we know better then the one who creates everything and also ourselves? The answer is no and anyone who says otherwise is nothing but being unjust and foolish towards himself.

That's basically the bottom-line. We are placed here by a higher authority and we didn't come here by ourselves and that higher power has a legislation to mankind.

The best help I can give you first is since you don't believe in one god then I suggest you leave all empty disscussions and go seek this creator and if you put your heart to finding him you may find him and the truth and that is if you are sincere he will guide you towards the truth insha-allah.

We are talking about an inter-galatic lord and the one who provides all energy to the universe and stars. I could go one days describing him in glorification but I won't reach it with him nor being able to even round little about the amount of praise his worth
Reply

Abz2000
09-24-2018, 09:34 AM
This troll is attempting to claim something along the lines of: 'if you claim you got injected by a drug dealer, and you can't prove it, then you risk being arrested for being under the influence'.
Or if you voluntarily go to the police with a pack of drugs and claim that it belongs to a drug dealer, you might be charged with posession if they can't prove that the person is a dealer.
Well, the merits of the case would need to be looked into and judged justly in God's sight.
Reply

keiv
09-25-2018, 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann

Which one is the vimeo video ?
*Vice video
Reply

Alamgir
09-25-2018, 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
The Rashidun Caliphate is characterized by a twenty-five year period of rapid military expansion, followed by a five-year period of internal strife.
That doesn't sound like a very harmonious and peaceful place, doesn't it?
The first 25 years sounds pretty good for us. For our enemies, not so much but I couldn't care less about the barbaric Sassanids or Byzantines.

Originally Posted by Raymann
Aurangzeb cancelled eighty taxes and reimposed jizya on non-Muslims which was cancelled by his ancestors.Aurangzeb acted boldly upon the Islamic commandments and therefore eliminated the idolatrous festivals, such as Nowruz celebrations. He banned lengthy eulogies at the time of attendance at court and allowed only the Islamic greeting of salam. Likewise he banned the import of liquor and drove out musicians and singers from the court.
Exactly, he was an excellent Islamic leader.

Originally Posted by Raymann
Following 1725 the empire declined rapidly, weakened by wars of succession, agrarian crises fueling local revolts, the growth of religious intolerance, the rise of Maratha Empire as well as Durrani Empire and Sikh Empire, and finally British colonialism. The last king, Bahadur Zafar Shah II, whose rule was restricted to the city of Delhi, was imprisoned and exiled by the British after the Indian Rebellion of 1857.
Aurangzeb Alamgir died in 1707, which was a significant amount of time before 1725. The empire declined because of his incompetent successors, not because of him.

Originally Posted by Raymann
Not very impressed, I must say.Any western country today might be a better place to live than any of those but that is just me saying it.
Your opinion is subjective, and you didn't ask for a country following Western principles, you asked for one following Islamic principles. I gave you several examples. Therefore, your original post has been proven incorrect.
Reply

Zafran
09-25-2018, 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Let's try again. When a woman reports rape has been committed against her the police is going to assume she is confessing having unlawful sex with the rapist. No need to prove adultery when she has already confessed. Get it ??
No you need to learn the difference between rape, adultery - assumption is made that she has been raped and the courts decide on evidence if its rape.

Originally Posted by Raymann
The case continues as usual. In most cases rape is not going to be proved. (statistics show is very difficult to prove rape)
true


Originally Posted by Raymann
The woman has already confessed having unlawful sex with the rapist. There's no need for witnesses nor proof.
How can you have consensual sex with a rapist?


Originally Posted by Raymann
This is what's been happening to foreign women while in Islamic countries.
3 strange cases in very different countries not exactly a big pool of evidence.
Reply

Raymann
09-25-2018, 04:46 AM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
The first 25 years sounds pretty good for us. For our enemies, not so much but I couldn't care less about the barbaric Sassanids or Byzantines.
Oh, so that's what you understood when I asked, where is the perfect Islamic country ??
You thought I was looking for a perfect country ONLY FOR MUSLIMS, the rest don't matter, you couldn't care less.
In that case you don't need to wait long, there are already some groups that can accomodate you.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Zafran
How can you have consensual sex with a rapist?
EXACTLY, why don't you explain that to the Islamic Police who over and over and over fail to understand it.

Reply

xboxisdead
09-25-2018, 04:55 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Oh, so that's what you understood when I asked, where is the perfect Islamic country ??
You thought I was looking for a perfect country ONLY FOR MUSLIMS, the rest don't matter, you couldn't care less.
In that case you don't need to wait long, there are already some groups that can accomodate you.

- - - Updated - - -



EXACTLY, why don't you explain that to the Islamic Police who over and over and over fail to understand it.

putting a video of a roman woman will not shed me tears..when your soldiers have raped our women, children and boys . Before you make us feel sympathetic for an atheist women, christian women or jewish women...why don't you go ahead and stop your country from raping our women, girls and boys? Hmmm...

Better yet...go ahead and use your media to stop usa and other non-Muslim countries from killing us and taking our resources.....show us you really care for humanity regardless of their religion...start there. Coming to here and making us feel guilty about rape of your womenfolk....ARE YOU SERIOUS?? Rape is haraam...regardless of religion...I am not denying that...but I don't see you stopping our people from suffering....discuss that first....do that first..
Reply

Raymann
09-25-2018, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
putting a video of a roman woman will not shed me tears..when your soldiers have raped our women, children and boys . Before you make us feel sympathetic for an atheist women, christian women or jewish women...why don't you go ahead and stop your country from raping our women, girls and boys? Hmmm...
So let me understand you:
Since westerners have raped Muslim women in the past we will not care nor feel sorry for western women been raped by Muslims.


Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I don't see you stopping our people from suffering....discuss that first....do that first..
You ungrateful piece of ----. Europe and America have been taking millions of Muslims who in some cases swim their way to the west asking for the help Muslims Countries in many cases denies them. Are you aware that many Muslim Countries won't take any Muslim refugees no matter how desperate the situation. Europe give them homes, social benefits and money every month.
That doesn't count as "stopping our people from suffering"?
So you're not going to thank us for that??
What are you doing for the Christian communities that are being attacked in Egypt and many other Muslim countries??
People like you give a bad name to the rest of Muslims.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-25-2018, 06:44 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
So let me understand you:
Since westerners have raped Muslim women in the past we will not care nor feel sorry for western women been raped by Muslims.




You ungrateful piece of ----. Europe and America have been taking millions of Muslims who in some cases swim their way to the west asking for the help Muslims Countries in many cases denies them. Are you aware that many Muslim Countries won't take any Muslim refugees no matter how desperate the situation. Europe give them homes, social benefits and money every month.
That doesn't count as "stopping our people from suffering"?
So you're not going to thank us for that??
What are you doing for the Christian communities that are being attacked in Egypt and many other Muslim countries??
People like you give a bad name to the rest of Muslims.
Whatever...you think by mass murdering people and removing them from their homes and then welcoming refugees all of a sudden make you some sort of what..saint? Please. I am not thanking you for <censor>. I swear if it wasn't for the disbelievers who placed their hands on affairs that did not matter with them and did not go ahead and put corrupted leaders to oppress us to take our resources, kill us, murder us, rape our women and children..then say come here we are you savior...we would not even come to the Western world period. Every sentence above shows HOW ARROGANT the lots you are. Please leave this forum...you WILL NOT BE MISSED. The biggest indication of your arrogance and I have never seen more arrogant than the atheists. The mere fact you disbelieve in existence of God period shows how bald and arrogant you are, where in fact you should cower at the corner and piss your pant
Reply

Alamgir
09-25-2018, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Oh, so that's what you understood when I asked, where is the perfect Islamic country ??
You thought I was looking for a perfect country ONLY FOR MUSLIMS, the rest don't matter, you couldn't care less.
The 'perfect Islamic country' is one that rules a region (efficiently) using Sharia to make legislation.

I gave an example of several empire's managing to do so or becoming pretty close to doing so, whether or not you like them or think you'd be oppressed when living in said empires is irrelevant.

I also fail to see how any oppression took place in any of those empires.
Reply

Scimitar
09-25-2018, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I like you brother ;D ;D ;D

I WISH I could have met you in real life and we could have been friends in real life!! Such strength and common sense and not afraid to speak your mind!! ;D :D :D ;D :D
I've had the honour to meet brother Abz2000 when he used to live in London... quite a few years ago now.

Abz bro, you are missed!
Reply

xboxisdead
09-25-2018, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Bushwackk
I've had the honour to meet brother Abz2000 when he used to live in London... quite a few years ago now.

Abz bro, you are missed!
I am jealous! :heated::heated::heated:
Reply

Zafran
09-25-2018, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
EXACTLY, why don't you explain that to the Islamic Police who over and over and over fail to understand it.
why dont you do that.
Reply

Abz2000
09-26-2018, 02:18 AM
On the facade of the Ministry of Justice in Paris, just below a ground-floor window, is a marble shelf engraved with a horizontal line and the word ‘MÈTRE’. It is hardly noticeable in the grand Place Vendôme: in fact, out of all the tourists in the square, I was the only person to stop and consider it. But this shelf is one of the last remaining ‘mètre étalons’ (standard metre bars) that were placed all over the city more than 200 years ago in an attempt to introduce a new, universal system of measurement. And it is just one of many sites in Paris that point to the long and fascinating history of the metric system.
“Measurement is one of the most banal and ordinary things, but it’s actually the things we take for granted that are the most interesting and have such contentious histories,” said Dr Ken Alder, history professor at Northwestern University and author of The Measure of All Things, a book about the creation of the metre.

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/2018...-metric-system



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doll...United_States)


It is also one of only two denominations (the other being the cent) minted in every year from its inception during the first decade of mint operation. However, the order was given by President Thomas Jefferson to halt silver dollar production due to the continued exportation of U.S. dollars. The Spanish 8 Reales, which was slightly heavier than the U.S. dollar, nonetheless traded at a 1-to-1 77ratio. So U.S. dollars went to the Caribbean, were traded for heavier 8 Reales, and those were then brought back to the U.S., where they would be recoined for free into more U.S. dollars; the difference in silver, then, was kept by the exporter. This ensured that no dollars would circulate in the U.S., but would instead be exported for their heavier counterparts overseas, leaving little but old, foreign money to circulate in the United States in a process known as Gresham's Law.

The 1804 silver dollar was actually produced in 1834, when the U.S. Department of State decided to produce a set of U.S. coins to be used as gifts to rulers in Asia in exchange for trade advantages. Since 1804 was the last recorded year of mintage for both the dollar and $10 Eagle, it was decided that the set would contain examples of those coins dated 1804, as well as the other denominations currently being produced. Mint officials, not realizing that the 19,000+ dollars recorded as being produced in 1804 were all dated 1803, proceeded to make new dies dated 1804.


With the Mint Act of 1853, all U.S. silver coins, except for the U.S. silver dollar and new 3 cent coin, were reduced by 22.9% as of weight with arrows on the date to denote reduction. The U.S. silver dollar was continued to be minted in very small numbers mainly as a foreign trade to the Orient.

The international trading partners did not like the fact that U.S. coins were reduced in weight.
The use of much more common half dollars became problematic since merchants would have to separate higher value pre-1853 coins from the newer reduced ones. From 1853 onwards, trade with Asia was typically done with Mexican coins that kept their weight and purity in the 19th Century.


Each coin is composed of 0.77344 troy oz of silver. They were minted at Philadelphia, New Orleans, Carson City, and San Francisco. A Silver dollar is worth $1 in silver at $1.31 per troy ounce. The current silver price (March 10, 2017) is $17.01 per troy ounce so a silver dollar is worth, in melt value of about $13.15 US.

Muslim: A pound of apples please mate

Atheist: 'ere ya......

Muslim: ...... that's just one apple and it weighs two ounces.

Atheist: you're trying to impose sharaya on me! as if i can't decide what's what! My family still like me even though i decide what a pound is every morning! it's called progressive rather than stagnant! you're backwards! you simply obey your god! i'm free!

Muslim: mate, keep your apples, and i'm going to find a place where shariah is justly imposed; but if i find i get unjustly harassed by you and your scamming ilk over there - you will suffer the just consequences.




https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...int-money.html




The Story of Prophet Shu'aib :saws:

http://www.archive.org/download/Anwa...uaib_Yusuf.mp3
Reply

Raymann
09-28-2018, 10:08 PM
Questions are still unanswered and my curiosity unsatisfied.

https://www.emirates247.com/crime/lo...09-04-1.474035

The study listed the top 10 reasons for women not reporting crimes in the UAE based on its research and ground evidence.

These were:
Honour
Fear of contempt of society
Shame stemming from women's own vulnerability to attack
Fear of retaliation
Pressure from parents and family
Love and jealousy
No community acceptance, especially in cases involving a male friend
Nomadic and tribal traditions
Fear of further violence
Privacy, customs and traditions for Gulf women

The study also listed the most common forms of violence experienced by women.

My point all along is that it has been proven over and over that there's a lot of crimes committed against women (rape is just one of them), that are not reported and therefore all statistics coming from Muslims Countries in this regard are totally useless.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is Islam's fault necessarily but .....

Would a Muslim father report her daughter has been raped ???
Is that too shameful for him?
Has his daughter dis-honor him and his family by being raped?
I read in India the raped woman would commit suicide so save the family honor.

I just wanted to hear it directly from Muslims themselves.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
09-28-2018, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Questions are still unanswered and my curiosity unsatisfied.

https://www.emirates247.com/crime/lo...09-04-1.474035

The study listed the top 10 reasons for women not reporting crimes in the UAE based on its research and ground evidence.

These were:
Honour
Fear of contempt of society
Shame stemming from women's own vulnerability to attack
Fear of retaliation
Pressure from parents and family
Love and jealousy
No community acceptance, especially in cases involving a male friend
Nomadic and tribal traditions
Fear of further violence
Privacy, customs and traditions for Gulf women

The study also listed the most common forms of violence experienced by women.

My point all along is that it has been proven over and over that there's a lot of crimes committed against women (rape is just one of them), that are not reported and therefore all statistics coming from Muslims Countries in this regard are totally useless.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is Islam's fault necessarily but .....

Would a Muslim father report her daughter has been raped ???
Is that too shameful for him?
Has his daughter dis-honor him and his family by being raped?
I read in India the raped woman would commit suicide so save the family honor.

I just wanted to hear it directly from Muslims themselves.
Dude its culture. The fact that you make assumptions about whether our fathers would report if rape etc happened is disturbing. "Just wanted to hear it from Muslims themselves" that's such a condescending thing to say. If you have any more sharia questions check out this blog on tumblr: partytilfajr. Dude who runs it studied islam and sharia in Egypt and knows his stuff.
Reply

Abz2000
09-28-2018, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Questions are still unanswered and my curiosity unsatisfied.

https://www.emirates247.com/crime/lo...09-04-1.474035

The study listed the top 10 reasons for women not reporting crimes in the UAE based on its research and ground evidence.

These were:
Honour
Fear of contempt of society
Shame stemming from women's own vulnerability to attack
Fear of retaliation
Pressure from parents and family
Love and jealousy
No community acceptance, especially in cases involving a male friend
Nomadic and tribal traditions
Fear of further violence
Privacy, customs and traditions for Gulf women

The study also listed the most common forms of violence experienced by women.

My point all along is that it has been proven over and over that there's a lot of crimes committed against women (rape is just one of them), that are not reported and therefore all statistics coming from Muslims Countries in this regard are totally useless.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is Islam's fault necessarily but .....

Would a Muslim father report her daughter has been raped ???
Is that too shameful for him?
Has his daughter dis-honor him and his family by being raped?
I read in India the raped woman would commit suicide so save the family honor.

I just wanted to hear it directly from Muslims themselves.
@Raymann you are one of the lousiest trolls i have come across, you have now resorted to why some people do and don''t report crimes based on the obscure opinions of some people -in order to continue your campaign of false propaganda despite having been provided with clear examples of how such incidents were reported in the time of the Prophet :saws: when he was establishing pure shariah.
Worse still, you are using the uae as an exampłe despite it having invited atheist tourism and become one of the most sexually corrupt regions in the Arab world where alcohol is openly sold and consumed, and where prostitution and drug and extacy consumption is hyped, and where the leader is a uk sandhurst military trained individual....

If you raped your mom and then your sister, would your dad report it or would he join you in screwing both? I just want to see what atheists who are comfortable with prostitution, alcoholìsm, strip clubs where "ladies" dance for "gentlemen" (as if they even know what a lady or a gentleman is) , and exploiting people through usury - think.
Is your mother a pornographic actress?
Does she take it up the @r$e?
If so, how much money does she make?
Aren't you worried she might get aids?
And then end up in hell?
Reply

xboxisdead
09-28-2018, 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
@Raymann you are one of the lousiest trolls i have come across, you have now resorted to why some people do and don''t report crimes based on the obscure opinions of some people -in order to continue your campaign of false propaganda despite having been provided with clear examples of how such incidents were reported in the time of the Prophet :saws: when he was establishing pure shariah.
Worse still, you are using the uae as an exampłe despite it having invited atheist tourism and become one of the most sexually corrupt regions in the Arab world where alcohol is openly sold and consumed, and where prostitution and drug and extacy consumption is hyped, and where the leader is a uk sandhurst military trained individual....

If you raped your mom and then your sister, would your dad report it or would he join you in screwing both? I just want to see what atheists who are comfortable with prostitution, alcoholìsm, strip clubs where "ladies" dance for "gentlemen" (as if they even know what a lady or a gentleman is) , and exploiting people through usury - think.
Is your mother a pornographic actress?
Does she take it up the @r$e?
If so, how much money does she make?
Aren't you worried she might get aids?
And then end up in hell?
:D:D:giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling::lol: He should be more worried that he himself will go to hell. It is not like he can have a conversation with his mother in hell, he will be focused exclusively on the pain he is suffering forever in hellfire and literally you feel alone in hell as each of the person in there is screaming in pain and suffering and having their bottom lips dragged on the floor from the fire. They will make sounds like donkeys and will be forced to eat from that fruit from the tree that will cut them from the inside over and over and over....I think he better wake up
Reply

Raymann
09-29-2018, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
you have now resorted to why some people do and don''t report crimes based on the obscure opinions of some people
I would have preferred to hear the reasons from you Muslims in the forum but you are too busy attacking my questions and hidden intentions instead of honestly admitting the problems your society faces and answer my questions straight up.

Notice how the questions I posted were not answered.
I don't asked for anything too difficult just your honest personal position.
What would you have done in the situations I proposed??? and why???

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Dude its culture. The fact that you make assumptions about whether our fathers would report if rape etc happened is disturbing.
Sorry if you misunderstood, maybe I didn't communicate clearly enough.
Based on the study I posted, crimes against women are not reported, that is a fact.
I didn't assume anything, I just asked if you were the father of a woman that has been raped and (you) as a Muslim:
Would you go to the police and report the crime???
Is it true that cultural reasons (shame, honor, etc) would prevent you from doing it???
Is it true that this is common in Muslim Counties???
Reply

Abz2000
09-29-2018, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
I would have preferred to hear the reasons from you Muslims in the forum but you are too busy attacking my questions and hidden intentions instead of honestly admitting the problems your society faces and answer my questions straight up.



I've been through so many jewish hasbara trolls like yourself posing as curious atheists and seeking blind contention through vain argument despite having been shown the truth of the matter that i refuse to be led along like a moron. I used to be a credit card scammer who has even got out of police stations by hoodwinking cops so i have an idea of how manipulation works.



Originally Posted by Raymann
Notice how the questions I posted were not answered.

I don't asked for anything too difficult just your honest personal position.
What would you have done in the situations I proposed??? and why???

If you had tried pulling one of those vague questions in a court an objection of leading woukd have been raised by any practitioner of law worth their salt, and any judge worth his salt would have upheld such an exception.




Also go back through my perfectly valid questions to you on both your threads before the current contempt and notice how you chose to be selectively blind to them and chose to answer anything that could keep a stupid argument going.

Islam has a solid foundation and basis, and it also has ijtihaad based on those foundations.
Baseless hypothetical questions only hilight the negative results of lack of implementation of Islamic shariah in any land.



38. Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs! no god do I know for you but myself: therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!"
39. And he was arrogant and insolent in the land, beyond reason,- He and his hosts: they thought that they would not have to return to Us!
40. So We seized him and his hosts, and We flung them into the sea: Now behold what was the end of those who did wrong!
41. And we made them (but) leaders inviting to the Fire; and on the Day of Judgment no help shall they find.
42. in this world We made a curse to follow them and on the Day of Judgment they will be among the loathed (and despised).
43. We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations, (to give) Insight to men, and guidance and Mercy, that they might receive admonition.
44. Thou wast not on the Western side when We decreed the Commission to Moses, nor wast thou a witness (of those events).
45. But We raised up (new) generations, and long were the ages that passed over them; but thou wast not a dweller among the people of Madyan, rehearsing Our Signs to them; but it is We Who send apostles (with inspiration).
46. Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) Tur when we called (to Moses). Yet (art thou sent) as Mercy from thy Lord, to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee: in order that they may receive admonition.
47. If (We had) not (sent thee to the Quraish),- in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they might say: "Our Lord! why didst Thou not sent us an apostle? We should then have followed Thy Signs and been amongst those who believe!"
48. But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!"
49. Say: "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"
50. But if they hearken not to thee, know that they only follow their own lusts: and who is more astray than one who follow his own lusts, devoid of guidance from Allah. for Allah guides not people given to wrong-doing.
51. Now have We caused the Word to reach them themselves, in order that they may receive admonition.
52. Those to whom We sent the Book before this,- they do believe in this (revelation):
53. And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord: indeed we have been Muslims (bowing to Allah.s Will) from before this.
54. Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert Evil with Good, and that they spend (in charity) out of what We have given them.
55. And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant."

56. It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
57. They say: "If we were to follow the guidance with thee, we should be snatched away from our land." Have We not established for them a secure sanctuary, to which are brought as tribute fruits of all kinds,- a provision from Ourselves? but most of them understand not.
58. And how many populations We destroyed, which exulted in their life (of ease and plenty)! now those habitations of theirs, after them, are deserted,- All but a (miserable) few! and We are their heirs!
59. Nor was thy Lord the one to destroy a population until He had sent to its centre an apostle, rehearsing to them Our Signs; nor are We going to destroy a population except when its members practise iniquity.

From Quran, Chapter 28
Reply

keiv
09-29-2018, 10:13 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Which one is the vimeo video ?
Originally Posted by keiv
*Vice video
Bump
Reply

Raymann
09-29-2018, 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
I've been through so many jewish hasbara trolls like yourself posing as curious atheists
That's called a prejudist assumption.


Originally Posted by Abz2000
seeking blind contention through vain argument despite having been shown the truth
Again, no answers under the fear of being manipulated into a taboo topic, but still claiming the truth has been shown.
I came for your personal opinions not to be shown a link which I could have found myself
Why are you guys so defensive ?
What are you so afraid of ?
It's only a discussion.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
09-29-2018, 10:53 AM
Im so confused man... What even are your questions?
Reply

Raymann
09-29-2018, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Im so confused man... What even are your questions?
Thanks for asking.
Based on my research in many Muslim countries a woman who accuses a man of rape automatically is admitting having sex with the rapist (that's how some police interpret it).
In most cases (according to statistics) the rape case is going to be dismissed.
But now she can be accused of adultery or fornication as many real cases have shown.

My question:

Do Muslims trust the justice system and report rape cases?

The risks are:
Being charged with adultery or fornication.
Social shame.
Family honor.
Even getting killed by her own family.

Thanks for you reply
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
09-29-2018, 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Thanks for asking.
Based on my research in many Muslim countries a woman who accuses a man of rape automatically is admitting having sex with the rapist (that's how some police interpret it).
In most cases (according to statistics) the rape case is going to be dismissed.
But now she can be accused of adultery or fornication as many real cases have shown.

My question:

Do Muslims trust the justice system and report rape cases?

The risks are:
Being charged with adultery or fornication.
Social shame.
Family honor.
Even getting killed by her own family.

Thanks for you reply
Well "Muslims" are not just one huge giant group with the same opinions and fixation on honour etc. Some may be backwards and close minded and rather have an injustice happen than risk their reputation. And a lot may want to report it to police as what is it is: forced non consensual intercourse. There is no way islamically rape is considered adultery. Adultery is consensual premaritial sex or cheating on your spouse.
I'm gonna finish with this verse from the Quran (4:135)
"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted."
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
09-29-2018, 11:26 AM
I think just like with anything, there is a mix of opinions. I would say most Muslims would trust the justice system. Speaking for myself personally i would say i don't trust justice systems all the time. I mean Sudan was recently protested against heavily for wantkng to execute a girl who killed her rapist in self defense. So, sorry to be biased, but i do not trust Sudan's justice system.
Reply

Raymann
09-29-2018, 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Speaking for myself personally i would say i don't trust justice systems all the time.
Thanks for your honest answer.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
09-29-2018, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Thanks for your honest answer.
I feel like i wasn't clear enough. I trust justice systems basically all the time. Sometimes not though. As was the case i previously spoke about in sudan
Reply

Mandy
09-29-2018, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Thanks for asking.
Based on my research in many Muslim countries a woman who accuses a man of rape automatically is admitting having sex with the rapist (that's how some police interpret it).
In most cases (according to statistics) the rape case is going to be dismissed.
But now she can be accused of adultery or fornication as many real cases have shown.

My question:

Do Muslims trust the justice system and report rape cases?

The risks are:
Being charged with adultery or fornication.
Social shame.
Family honor.
Even getting killed by her own family.

Thanks for you reply
I feel as if your questions was already answered a while back when you first asked about it. Why do you keep asking a question based on something that has already been proven to you is false?? I did not read all the replies, but just by reading a few, there were plenty of links proving to you that rape and adultery are not the same. So why do you seem to push for the same question? Are you hoping someone will finally admit that Islam is against women? Are you attempting to validate your own misconceptions?

If that is the case, all I can say is, please let us women judge for ourselves. cinnamonrolls1, myself and many other sisters have already confirmed to you that we don't share your views. What else would you want? (and let me reassure you, I do not have a man forcing me to write this!)
Reply

Abz2000
09-29-2018, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
That's called a prejudist assumption.
when it's relating to a perpetual unrepentant liar -It's called prudence.



Originally Posted by Raymann
Again, no answers under the fear of being manipulated into a taboo topic, but still claiming the truth has been shown.


I came for your personal opinions not to be shown a link which I could have found myself


you already posted a list of obscure and baseless personal opinions despite being shown how the Prophet :saws: did NOT accuse her of adultery or fornication and almost ended up punishing an innocent man, this must have taught him to be cautious in judgement too - and it is no wonder there are no direct Quranic instructions on the issue - since it requires context.


what's the benefit of getting another list?



Originally Posted by Raymann
Why are you guys so defensive ?
No more defensive than if we saw a snake slithering around.



Originally Posted by Raymann
What are you so afraid of ?
It's only a discussion.

Again - a prejudiCED accusation repackaged as a question.



You'll get a good idea of how it works when khilafah on the method of prophethood is established, other than that you'll get around three billion opinions.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
09-29-2018, 02:26 PM
Raymann, we're frustrated, because you are buying into the media and into stereotypes. Your're making Muslims out to be some sort of "foreign" group who dont think the same way as others. Im sure most muslim fathers are just like any other fathers and would be horrified if any thing halpened to their kids and would report it. Oh yeah, and its not just Muslims who are supposedly fixated on honour etc. India's hindu population( and i am in no way generalising Hindus here, or anything, i will never blame one whole group for the actions of some idiots) have also commited honour killings etc. Y'all just see an Arab person, or a brown person and think theyre muslim.
Egypt is partly coptic, to say that every single crime against women etc or killings etc is commited by Muslims in Egypt is wrong. Do you understand my point? Its not just Muslims who have these cultures etc. China also has had a strong association with honor and dishonour etc- iv heard stories online abt chinese/japanese folk hating their kids cos they married someone who was Chinese/japanese.
Reply

Abz2000
09-29-2018, 04:36 PM
It's probably more a method of some Godless people to take the spotlight off themselves by attempting to project their own indiscretions onto others without proper context.

Poor lady di.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-29-2018, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
It's probably more a method of some Godless people to take the spotlight off themselves by attempting to project their own indiscretions onto others without proper context.

Poor lady di.
Funny how Raymann thinks that his law is Justice and Islamic law is injustice....when the biggest SEXIST ever are the kufar and mushrikeen and atheist and Western law. They are so fixated into women's right that a grown up married teacher who have sex with a 14 year old boy at school, she literally fiddles with him...does <censor> to his private parts and she only gets probation but reverse the order and the man is hanged by his private part and sentence for life in prison.

Are you kidding me? You'r kidding me...your laws are full of wormholes, injustice, discrimination, double standard, unfairness, and then scream in the media that somehow on this other side the side of jahanam, the side of hellfire is somehow greener than where you are which is the side of paradise and justice. No thank you raymann, no thank you. You can keep your false God that you worship that is called the state and you can keep your feminism and women empowerment and your Western ideologies and laws to yourself thank you so muuuch! I do not need it. Do not want it. Do not want to have anything to do with it. While your soo fixated toward's women getting raped..I do not see you fixated towards boys getting raped by men or women or their own MOTHERS. Do I? No. no no no..that is not important alone. Who cares about welfare's of boys been raped. Oh no. Who cares if boys are dressed like girls and starts dancing for men out there...I do not see you talking about. Nope. Nu uh. What about all these men who got raped in your country. Do I see you talking about them? Nope. Nothing. Nada. You are aware in USA the largest group on Earth who are raped are men, not women, but men? Do I see you talk about that? Why is there no rally of men in USA who are fighting against injustice towards them? No one in USA takes men seriously...I do not blame them. Why should they? If they have men like you raymann.

How come I do not see you mentioning how your men and boys are failing at school in your country raymann? How come I do not see you coming here asking for help in how to fix the issue? How come raymann I do not see you rallying at public areas against injustice towards false allegation, eh raymann? How come? How come you are not taking a political step towards the injustice raymann? Hey raymann - knocks on his forehead - Do you have any brain matter in there raymann? Do you think raymann? Or are you just a blind zombie posting the same <censor> statement over and over? Hey raymann how come you are not fighting against family court, raymann? Hey raymann how come you agree that a woman can take your kids and make them be your open enemy? Do you not care for your connection with your children raymann? Where is your initiative raymann? If I throw you a beautiful woman...in your country it is legal at 18 you will be content and obey her and do nothing towards injustice, isn't it right raymann? That is the magical number right raymann? That makes you not a pedophile right raymann? Because if you marry any less you are a pedophile, right raymann? Is that so raymann? You make something legal to illegal raymann because some old white-fart at the top tells you, right raymann? You worship him or her, right raymann? Why don't you go to your false God raymann and prostrate to him or her and glorify your false God, raymann. Your false God who have a beginning and have an end, your false God who is made of flesh and bones and who looks like you, your false God who urinate and defecate and who farts and eats and drinks and who makes babies, that is your false God raymann, why don't you worship that false God Raymann because you believe that false God is justice right Raymann? The false God makes total sense to you, right Raymann?


-------------------

Married Teacher, 30, Sentenced To Probation After Pleading Guilty To Giving Head To 14 Year Old Student

Yet Not One Feminist Complained!

Dori Myers, a New York teacher and wife of a law enforcement officer, is accused of performing oral sex on a 14-year-old boy.

At one point, the teen allegedly posted a Snapchat video captioned “Me and my sexy a*s wife.”

According to The New York Post, the Bronx public school teacher now stands “charged with criminal sexual act in the second degree and endangering the welfare of a child.” Initially, Myers adamantly denied the accusations, the Post reported.

However, on September 12, 2018, Myers was sentenced for the crime by Judge Michael Obus. Although prosecutors asked for prison, he gave Myers 10 years of probation and found her to be a Level 1 sex offender, according to The New York Daily News. That’s outraging some people who think Myers received disparate treatment.

Here’s what you need to know:

1. The Teenage Boy Allegedly Told a Classmate About the Accusations, Leading to Myers’ Arrest

One aspect of the sentencing that is upsetting some people: Myers could be allowed to teach again someday even though she eventually admitted to the accusations.

Authorities arrested the teacher after the teen boy allegedly told a classmate about the accusations. The classmate then informed the school principal about what he had learned, according to The New York Daily News.

Myers “was arrested…at the site of the alleged attack on 168th St. and Broadway in Washington Heights,” Daily News reported. The newspaper reported that Myers was accused of performing oral sex on the boy and has pleaded not guilty to a criminal charge.

According to the New York Post, authorities allege that “a fellow teacher witnessed Myers massaging the victim.”

Judge Obus has been on the bench since 1993. According to Ballotpedia, he also serves as an “acting justice for the New York County Supreme Court, Criminal Term in the 1st Judicial District of New York” a position to which he was appointed. Before he was a judge, Obus, whose legal career dates to the 1970s, served as a lawyer for The Legal Aid Society of Nassau County, NY, Ballotpedia reports.

He’s handled major cases before, previously dismissing rape charges against Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the former head of the International Monetary Fund. However, in that instance, prosecutors had said they couldn’t prove their case, ABA Journal reported.

2. Myers Was Working as a Social Studies Teacher & Started a Track Team

Myers was a teacher at the New School for Leadership and the Arts in Kingsbridge, New York. According to The New York Post, her attorney, Andrew Stoll, says that Myers lives in Rockland County.

Stoll “noted the teacher had started a track team at the Bronx school, where she had worked since 2014,” The Post reported, adding that the attorney maintained that the teacher was innocent early on in the case.

“It just takes one person’s accusation to make an arrest in this town and she’s a model citizen who looks forward to clearing her name,” Stoll told The New York Post.

3. Myers Posted References to Alcohol on Her Social Media Pages

The social media accounts, including on Facebook and Twitter, for the teacher have now been deleted, but they allegedly contained references to alcohol.

“The brunette wrote about her students and partying on social media, where she posted a since-deleted picture of herself beaming in a dark blue, low cut tank top that read ‘Champagne All Day’, while holding a bottle in one hand and a glass of bubbly in the other,” reported The Sun.

“In another now-deleted image, Myers is wearing a white top with the bawdy phrase: ‘Whiskey Makes Me Frisky,’” The Sun noted. According to The New York Post, a 2015 tweet by Myers stated that a student had commented on the appearance of the teacher: “Ms. You’re like, real pretty, but, no offense, you got a big forehead.”

Added UK Daily Mail: “The teacher’s Facebook page showed a series of smiling photos in which she laughed with friends and drank straight out of champagne bottles before it was deleted.”

4. Myers Is Married to a Sheriff’s Deputy, Reports Say

Myers is married. According to the Daily Mail, she “lives in Rockland County where her husband is sheriff’s deputy.” Daily Mail reports that the “criminal complaint claims the assault took place somewhere in Upper Manhattan on November 1.”



The New York Post also reported of Myers: “Her husband is a sheriff’s deputy.”



In court, prosecutors alleged that Dori Myers “abused her position as a trusted authority figure,” reported the New York Post. According to Daily Mail, “The Department of Education has called the allegations ‘deeply troubling,’ but said Myers has no prior disciplinary history.”

Her husband did not attend her sentencing hearing.

5. The Judge Allowed Myers to Stay Free & Keep Her Teaching Certificate

Some people are furious with the judge’s handling of the case, accusing Myers of not getting a stiffer sentence because of “white privilege” (such as the Twitter user who made the post above.) Judge Obus ruled that Myers could keep her teaching certificate. That action came as part of a plea deal, LoHud.com reports.

After the accusations came to light, the school district reassigned her so she wouldn’t have contact with students but eventually fired her, according to the newspaper.

Over the past two years, many female teachers have been accused of having sex or an inappropriate relationship with a high school student. Cassandra White, an English teacher in Oklahoma, is even accused of taking out a marriage license with a teenage boy. Hunter Day, an Oklahoma teacher, was accused of sending nude photos to a student. Among other recent cases: Loryn Barclay, a former substitute teacher at a Missouri High School, was accused of having sexual contact multiple times with a 17-year-old boy. Shawnetta Reece, a gym teacher from Georgia, was accused of having an inappropriate relationship with a 15-year-old boy.

Tracy Miller, a West Virginia teacher, was accused of sending nude photos to students. Nataly Lopez, a 27-year-old former substitute teacher at a middle school in New Jersey, was accused of having sexual contact with a student. Lindsey Jarvis, a 27-year-old middle school teacher’s aide, was accused of the rape and sodomy of a student who was under the age of 16. Jarvis was arrested in Fayette County, Kentucky, on June 16. Then there’s Laura Ramos. She is a 31-year-old Connecticut high school teacher who is accused of having sex with a special education student. And there’s Tiffany Geliga.

KINGSBRIDGE, New York, September 14, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – A 30-year-old teacher who performed oral sex on a 14-year-old student multiple times in 2016 will not only avoid prison time but could potentially teach again, under the terms of her plea agreement.

Formerly a social studies teacher at New School for Leadership and the Arts, a public school in the Bronx’s Kingsbridge neighborhood, Dori Myers was accused in January of performing oral sex on a male student, who told a classmate who in turn notified the school’s principal. Another teacher reportedly witnessed her “massaging” the boy, as well.

Prosecutors charged Myers with “criminal sexual act in the second degree and endangering the welfare of a child,” which she denied. The Department of Education called the accusation “deeply troubling,” but initially reassigned her “away from students” rather than firing her.

Myers pled guilty on August 1, and the Rockland/Westchester Journal News reports this week that she has entered into a plea agreement consisting of ten years’ probation and registration as a Level 1 sex offender. According to New York’s Sex Offender Registry, Level 1 offenders are considered a “low risk” for repeat offenses, need not be given an official designation such as “predator,” can be de-registered after 20 years, and aren’t listed on the public directory.

Prosecutors had asked for two years in prison and revocation of Myers’ teaching certificate. But while she was fired after her guilty plea and Education Department spokesman Doug Cohen says she is “not eligible to work in New York City schools again,” the light sentence leaves open the possibility of her becoming a teacher again elsewhere.

Myers’ attorney characterized her as a model teacher whose career was destroyed by spurious allegations, but Vibe reports that the victim posted a Snapchat video of himself with Myers captioned, “Me and my sexy a** wife.”

While the ongoing scandal over sex abuse in the Catholic Church is currently dominating national headlines, some have long argued that a similar crisis in public education is at least as extensive, if not more so. Last month, Chicago Public Schools (CPS) released a preliminary report finding 500 cases of alleged sexual assault and abuse in CPS schools over the last ten years, and that CPS failed to perform adequate background checks or abuse tracking.

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Raymann
09-29-2018, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Mandy
I feel as if your questions was already answered a while back when you first asked about it. Why do you keep asking a question based on something that has already been proven to you is false?? I did not read all the replies, but just by reading a few, there were plenty of links proving to you that rape and adultery are not the same.
If you read my posts carefully you would have noticed that I was more interested on Muslims personal opinions and not so much on links I could have gotten myself. You would have also noticed that I never said rape and adultery are the same thing.
I said that rape accusations often end up turning into adultery or fornication accusations.
Cinnamonrolls1 was the first one to answer the question posted and that was yesterday so apparently you and other posters are more interested on me quitting the topic rather than providing the answers for the questions asked.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-29-2018, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
If you read my posts carefully you would have noticed that I was more interested on Muslims personal opinions and not so much on links I could have gotten myself. You would have also noticed that I never said rape and adultery are the same thing.
I said that rape accusations often end up turning into adultery or fornication accusations.
Cinnamonrolls1 was the first one to answer the question posted and that was yesterday so apparently you and other posters are more interested on me quitting the topic rather than providing the answers for the questions asked.
So now that you have gotten your question answered, I do hope you are satisfied. Now we can move on, I hope.

Now it is my turn. Now you are asking about Sharia's law...my turn to ask about man-made law. What are you input toward sexism and racism and injustice in your laws?

What are you going to do about how a female teacher can rape a student according to your laws...mind you..this is your laws...your laws decrees that any adult having sexual relationship with any person who is below age of 18 is criminal offence and considered a pedophile and will have their lives ruined and placed in prison. Isn't that the law you guys estated? In fact...it is such a crime that if a person goes to prison with that in theri head they will be executed by the inmates in prison..isn't that so? OK. So we established that a man who have sex with an underage person (according to your laws) which is below age 18 (am I correct?) they are considered a sexual predator they will be put in the media and considered a criminal and required ot be executed. That is the law in your state. The prisoners will have a field day on this guy who went to prison for having sexual relationship with an underage person...am I correct?

Why then may I ask the same offence is not decreed when a female teacher have a sexual relationnship with a 14 year old "boy" according to your laws? Why is it she either get a slap on her hand, she either get probation, she does not get the same sentence as the man who is in prison and in additional to that she goes free and live her life and and she still have relationship with people? May I ask..what are you going to do about that?

May I ask also why is your man-made law oppressing children by allowing them to be conceived by single mothers and nothing is done about it? Why is your laws allowing gender mixing where risk of sexual relationship is high? Babies raised out of marriage is the norm now? Why is your western (man-made) law allowing this and nothing is done about it? It is becoming normalized...isn't it?

May I ask why is the family court and government is working hard to seperate families instead of enforcing it? May I ask, why nothing is done about it?

May I ask why is homosexuality and lesbianisim is not only condone but appraised and glorified and there is a rally and parade for them?

May I ask why Western world is working hard to remove gender difference and make them the same when that itself is the most oppressive thing you can do for both the sexes, might I add and not provide justice to either of their nature by giving them their true roles?

What are you going to do with all these men who are committing suicide at the highest rate possible and no one cares and they put it in TV and media to make it a nice drama show for entertainment? We all know boys do better with their fathers around..EVEN MORE SO than with girls to be honest..in fact..if there are no fathers around...girls do better at school and mature faster but the reverse is for boys..yet nothing is done about it. Why are there no way to fix this remedy?

It is amazing how you are pointing at one topic yet I can list endless and endless and endless of topics that is nothing been done about it.
Reply

Futuwwa
09-30-2018, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
If you read my posts carefully you would have noticed that I was more interested on Muslims personal opinions and not so much on links I could have gotten myself. You would have also noticed that I never said rape and adultery are the same thing.
I said that rape accusations often end up turning into adultery or fornication accusations.
Cinnamonrolls1 was the first one to answer the question posted and that was yesterday so apparently you and other posters are more interested on me quitting the topic rather than providing the answers for the questions asked.
No, you said that there is one true authentic sharia, and that when it's implemented like it's supposed to, it leads to many rape accusations turning into adultery or fornication accusations.

Also, not sure why anyone should go along and consider what we'd do in a hypothetical scenario you've concocted to be as self-serving to your argument as possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Also,

Originally Posted by Raymann
*snip*
Further up the street there is a public execution of a gay person, you cover your eyes from the sun because they're going to drop him from a tall building.
*snip*
Disclaimer: The previous imaginary scenario is based purely on my own research. No disrespect intended.
What research might that be? Just curious. Which classical Islamic scholars advocated execution of sodomites by dropping them from buildings, and how did they make the case for it?
Reply

Raymann
10-01-2018, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
No, you said that there is one true authentic sharia, and that when it's implemented like it's supposed to, it leads to many rape accusations turning into adultery or fornication accusations.
That is not even close to what I think.
The "rape accusations turning into adultery or fornication accusations" is happening today under not so strict Sharia.
My question was:
Is that misinterpretation of Islamic law? or
Why it keeps happening?
You are the Muslim, can you explain it?

In regards to the public executions there are tons of examples on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxA0e0mcnA

Dropping homosexuals from buildings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr7d1sTDNts

I'm not saying they applied strict Sharia Law, but they did.
The Taliban, ISIS, Saudi Arabia, they always claim they're using Sharia Law.
I cannot explain it, but maybe you can.
Reply

xboxisdead
10-01-2018, 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
That is not even close to what I think.
The "rape accusations turning into adultery or fornication accusations" is happening today under not so strict Sharia.
My question was:
Is that misinterpretation of Islamic law? or
Why it keeps happening?
You are the Muslim, can you explain it?

In regards to the public executions there are tons of examples on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxA0e0mcnA

Dropping homosexuals from buildings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr7d1sTDNts

I'm not saying they applied strict Sharia Law, but they did.
The Taliban, ISIS, Saudi Arabia, they always claim they're using Sharia Law.
I cannot explain it, but maybe you can.
What is your intake toward's homosexuality and lesbianism?

What is your intake toward's single mothers?

What is your intake toward's spousal cheating?

What is your intake toward's the injustice divorce system implemented by man-made law?

What is your intake toward's custodial rights in your juridical system?

What is your intake toward's false rape allegations?

How come you are failing to answer my questions? I mean it is only fair. We are answering your questions why you are not answering the questions I am pointing out to you? Raymann you are not playing fair.
Reply

Raymann
10-01-2018, 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
What is your intake toward's homosexuality and lesbianism?
I don't know the nature of it (natural, sexual preference or sickness?).
In terms of the legal part of it.
Same sex marriage: Yes, it should be legal.

Originally Posted by xboxisdead
What is your intake toward's single mothers?
If they are single mothers by choice, I don't have a problem with it.


Originally Posted by xboxisdead
What is your intake toward's spousal cheating?
Adultery and fornication laws in the west are not welcome but of course I would prefer people to behave in a decent manner.

Originally Posted by xboxisdead
What is your intake toward's the injustice divorce system implemented by man-made law?
It seems much less injusticed than the God's made one.
By the way is it true a man can divorce a woman just by repeating three time "I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you"?
Is that justice to you?
Why can't she do the same thing?

Originally Posted by xboxisdead
What is your intake toward's custodial rights in your juridical system?
I don't know enough about it to give you an opinion.

Originally Posted by xboxisdead
What is your intake toward's false rape allegations?
Against it. Bear in mind that becoming a victim of a false rape accusation is a million times less possible than becoming a rape victim where the charges against the rapist end up being dismissed.

Happy now?
Reply

xboxisdead
10-01-2018, 04:08 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
I don't know the nature of it (natural, sexual preference or sickness?).
In terms of the legal part of it.
Same sex marriage: Yes, it should be legal.
graphicslaughing590695 1 -

Originally Posted by Raymann
If they are single mothers by choice, I don't have a problem with it.
Proof my point exactly! You allow oppression to children. No one in your system cares about the rights of child and your system does not protect lineage (every child have a right to a mother and a father, NOT ONE MOTHER, OR TWO MOTHER OR TWO FATHER). It is all about what the woman wants and feels and ones it fails it is up to us to pick up the slack for her evil choice. You can take your system and put in the shredder where it belongs.

Originally Posted by Raymann
Adultery and fornication laws in the west are not welcome but of course I would prefer people to behave in a decent manner.
it.
Yeah...like we expect people to have manners not to lie or cheat or steal, right? Uh hu. We rely on the good nature of human beings to be civil beeeecaaauuuseeee some other human being said so? Rrrriiight.

Originally Posted by Raymann
It seems much less injusticed than the God's made one.
By the way is it true a man can divorce a woman just by repeating three time "I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you"?
Is that justice to you?
Why can't she do the same thing?
Theeeerreee we go! That is what I wanted to be shown here...perfect. Thank you sooooo much! Full of arrogance and God complex right there...projected into the wall with all open. A human being who thinks he is better than Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) because his inferior limited mind cannot comprehend the reasoning behind the laws of Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) and you believe Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) is sexist or is injustice but YOU...A HUMAN BEING who couldn't even formulate two words together when you where a baby..you...yooou...are more just and more knowledgeable than Allah (Subahanhu Wa Talaa), you are more just towards women than Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa)? You deserve what comes to you in the afterlife.


Originally Posted by Raymann
I don't know enough about it to give you an opinion.


Against it. Bear in mind that becoming a victim of a false rape accusation is a million times less possible than becoming a rape victim where the charges against the rapist end up being dismissed.

Happy now?
You have concluded you are completely talking from your <censor>.
Reply

azc
10-01-2018, 04:15 AM
@Raymann :

First of all, it should be known that there are three types of divorce: (1) Ahsan (most preferred), (2) Sunnah (preferred) and (3) Bid’a (sinful & unlawful innovation).

The Ahsan (most preferred) divorce is to make one pronouncement of divorce to the wife, in an interval between menstruations (Tuhr), in which no sexual intercourse with the wife has taken place. After which she is left until her waiting period (Iddah) is over.

The Sunnah (preferred) divorce is to pronounce three divorces in three separate intervals of Tuhr, in which no sexual intercourse with the wife has taken place.

The Bid’a (sinful and unlawful innovation) divorce consists of either making a pronouncement of divorce during the woman’s menstruation period (Haid) or to pronounce two or three divorces at once or to issue a divorce in a Tuhr (purity) in which sexual intercourse with the wife took place.

From the above we can see that, if a man pronounces three divorces at once, either by saying: “I give you three divorces” or by saying: “I divorce you” three times, it is considered an unlawful act and innovation. One will be sinful by divorcing the wife in such a way.

However, in case of ''adultery'' it's allowed

Imam Bukhari (RA) reports of Uwaymir (RA) who did Lian (sworn allegation of adultery) against his wife in the presence of the Prophet (SAW). Following that he said: “I shall be telling a lie if I retained her”. Then he gave her three talaqs before the Prophet (SAW) could give his verdict. (Bukhari P8 v2)
Reply

Futuwwa
10-01-2018, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
That is not even close to what I think.
The "rape accusations turning into adultery or fornication accusations" is happening today under not so strict Sharia.
My question was:
Is that misinterpretation of Islamic law? or
Why it keeps happening?
You are the Muslim, can you explain it?

In regards to the public executions there are tons of examples on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxA0e0mcnA

Dropping homosexuals from buildings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr7d1sTDNts

I'm not saying they applied strict Sharia Law, but they did.
The Taliban, ISIS, Saudi Arabia, they always claim they're using Sharia Law.
I cannot explain it, but maybe you can.
No, that's not what you said. You said that there is one, true sharia that not even Muslims dare to actually use 100%, as if to imply that we say one thing about sharia being the answer to everything but deep down don't believe it. You think you've come upon a rhetorical gotcha and set out to push that point and a preconceived narrative.

If you've actually come to understand how the premises of your original position are incorrect, that's great. If you want us to believe you're here for honest, serious discussion, it would benefit you to admit as much and accept having been corrected. But no, you're now denying that you ever said what you said, as if to discretely move the goalposts so you can keep the discussion going on at your terms.

Throwing gays off buildings, eh. That's something literally nobody anywhere had ever heard about until one much-publicized incident where ISIS did it. And yet, certain people have since been been talking about that as if it was a well-established staple of sharia in practice. That someone who does that is a pretty certain indicator of someone being an Islamophobic propagandist, or someone who uncritically chooses to believe in Islamophobic propaganda for whatever reason.
Reply

Raymann
10-01-2018, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
You said that there is one, true sharia that not even Muslims dare to actually use 100%, as if to imply that we say one thing about sharia being the answer to everything but deep down don't believe it.
Yes, that's exactly what I said, and I stand by it.

quote icon - Originally Posted by Futuwwa viewpost right -
No, you said that there is one true authentic sharia, and that when it's implemented like it's supposed to, it leads to many rape accusations turning into adultery or fornication accusations.

You need to be honest if we are going to be in a discussion. When I said "That's not what I said"
I was correcting Futuwwa (see the quote above).
Notice that at the end he added "it leads to many rape accusations turning into adultery or fornication accusations."
That was not part of my original statement.


Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Throwing gays off buildings, eh. That's something literally nobody anywhere had ever heard
That's true, it was the first time I heard it too and yes some of us could easily assume it is part of Sharia Law because that's the explanation they gave.
That's why I'm here to hear the other side of the story.
Reply

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