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oceanbreeze
03-20-2019, 08:15 PM
I have been trying to find direction on my spiritual path for some time now. I've been drawn to Islam, but there is one issue that has kept me from taking the Shahadah. It says explicitly in the Quran that people who die as non-believers or who die having attributed partners to Allah without repenting will be sent to hell, and they will be tortured in unimaginable pain for eternity.

Perhaps it's a carryover from my Christian upbringing, but I have always believed that God is pure love. To me, the idea that people who have done terrible things will be punished makes sense, but the idea that God would send most of the world's population to burn in hell forever merely because they chose the wrong religion is not in keeping with a loving God. I have tried to understand this and I simply do not. Yes, it is said that God knows what is truly in our hearts and that He knows best, but then wouldn't He understand why people chose another religion and tried to live a life of goodness and peace? What about people like Gandhi who practiced compassion and nonviolence? What about people who genuinely care for helping the poor? Are they all really doomed?

I don't want to offend anyone. I really am just trying to understand this...
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*charisma*
03-20-2019, 08:59 PM
Welcome to the forum @oceanbreeze

Thanks for your questions. If I may ask, what do you believe is the purpose of life??
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oceanbreeze
03-20-2019, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*
Welcome to the forum @oceanbreeze

Thanks for your questions. If I may ask, what do you believe is the purpose of life??
Thank you for answering :statisfie I honestly am not sure. In the past I thought that we are here to experience life and to learn, and to spread love. I know Islam says our purpose is to worship Allah; I am still trying to understand this concept.
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keiv
03-20-2019, 11:11 PM
I think one problem is that you see God as pure love. A good starting point would be to read about the 99 names that are attributed to Allah.

Another good thing to read about is the lives of the prophets, from Islamic sources. From Adam pbuh all the way up the prophet Muhammad pbuh. It may seem irrelevant to your concern but, I think it’ll help you understand the issue better along with understanding the religion overall.

Also, if you feel Islam is the truth, would it make sense to disbelieve in it because of its view towards disbileivers? That’s more of a rhetorical question.

There is wisdom behind everything Allah does, whether we understand it or not.
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beleiver
03-21-2019, 12:06 AM
I think the problem is the transaltion,
Think covered as in the heart is covered from Truth, if the heart is covered from Truth it can not know love...
He explains how it works and warns us if we dont uncover our hearts to (Allaha) Truth and we will suffer eternal torment...

My personal take is people who open their hearts to Truth, who are kind and compassionate and merciful will be spared eternal torment or hell fire...But prayings reall handy if your a hopless sinner like my self, inshalla...
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Saira Khan
03-21-2019, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
He understand why people chose another religion and tried to live a life of goodness and peace? What about people like Gandhi who practiced compassion and nonviolence? What about people who genuinely care for helping the poor? Are they all really doomed?
Welcome to the forum.

First of all, one must try to know and understand what is the truth, what are the lies, for truth always leads towards the light from darkness.
Let's take the example of an institution (a school, a collage or University for example). Every institution has got its specific curriculum which one has to go through and pass all it's examinations and tests and specific assignments, before getting certified. If one can't pass the exam of that specific curriculum, he or she will have to spend years and years without getting promotion and certification from that specific institution. The attributes which you have mentioned for example in case of Gandhi and other people like him, yes they may have covered some of the chapters in partial of that specific curriculum but not as a whole, hence they cannot be certified.
Now coming back to what I said that truth leads towards light from darkness, Muhammad (PBUH) is mentioned in The Vedas, in The Bible and in the Puranas including both Gita and the Maha Bharat. Well thats another discussion, but what I want to say is that one's has to chose a curriculum for him or her first.
Allah has taught men step by step accordingly. And you can say that all that were brought by all the messengers of Allah were the chapters of the main curriculum. That is why Allah says in the Final book, The Quran:
"This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
So, if one wants to get certified by the institution of Allah SWT, one has to follow His complete curriculum and not only "the few chapters" of it.

Stay Blessed.
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Supernova
03-21-2019, 12:36 AM
Mmmmm

Why you mention Gandi and not Jesus ?
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azc
03-21-2019, 05:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supernova
MmmmmWhy you mention Gandi and not Jesus ?
Wrong question, bro. Your putting a prophet :as: and a non believer on the same level.
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CuriousonTruth
03-21-2019, 06:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
but I have always believed that God is pure love.
Even if Allah were to forgive the "good" disbelievers (and I am saying this in theory) your concept of God is wrong.
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Supernova
03-21-2019, 04:13 PM
Asalaamualaykum:

That wasn't a question of "challenge" - Its a question to understand the mind-set of the OP
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oceanbreeze
03-21-2019, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
Also, if you feel Islam is the truth, would it make sense to disbelieve in it because of its view towards disbileivers? That’s more of a rhetorical question.
I am still trying to find the truth. There are many things I love about Islam, but this is the one issue that I have had trouble comprehending, as it does not seem merciful to me to send good and kind people to burn forever. But I am trying to keep an open mind on the issue.


format_quote Originally Posted by Supernova
Why you mention Gandi and not Jesus ?
I mentioned Gandhi because he is celebrated for being a powerful advocate for peace, love and tolerance. He would have rather died than defend himself with violence and he worked to bring people together. Yet he was primarily Hindu, though he appreciated the tenets of other religions including Islam. I use him as an example to ask how God could send such an amazing person to hell just for not being Muslim. I did not mention Jesus because I understand that Jesus is considered to be a great prophet in Islam and thus would not be sent to hell.


format_quote Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
Even if Allah were to forgive the "good" disbelievers (and I am saying this in theory) your concept of God is wrong.
All right then, please enlighten me. Do you mean to tell me that God doesn't love us all?


format_quote Originally Posted by Saira Kahn
Welcome to the forum.

First of all, one must try to know and understand what is the truth, what are the lies, for truth always leads towards the light from darkness.
Let's take the example of an institution (a school, a collage or University for example). Every institution has got its specific curriculum which one has to go through and pass all it's examinations and tests and specific assignments, before getting certified. If one can't pass the exam of that specific curriculum, he or she will have to spend years and years without getting promotion and certification from that specific institution. The attributes which you have mentioned for example in case of Gandhi and other people like him, yes they may have covered some of the chapters in partial of that specific curriculum but not as a whole, hence they cannot be certified.
Now coming back to what I said that truth leads towards light from darkness, Muhammad (PBUH) is mentioned in The Vedas, in The Bible and in the Puranas including both Gita and the Maha Bharat. Well thats another discussion, but what I want to say is that one's has to chose a curriculum for him or her first.
Allah has taught men step by step accordingly. And you can say that all that were brought by all the messengers of Allah were the chapters of the main curriculum. That is why Allah says in the Final book, The Quran:
"This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
So, if one wants to get certified by the institution of Allah SWT, one has to follow His complete curriculum and not only "the few chapters" of it.

Stay Blessed.
Thank you for this. I'm still not sure how I feel, but your answer is clear to me.
Reply

CuriousonTruth
03-21-2019, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
All right then, please enlighten me. Do you mean to tell me that God doesn't love us all?
The following is the islamic concept of God, believed by most except certain sects, it is quoted from Aqeedah at-Tahawiyah
نَقُولُ في تَوْحيدِ اللَّهِ مُعْتَقِدينَ، بـِتَوْفيقِ
We say about Allah's unity, believing by Allah's help that:
إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَعالى وَاحِدٌ لا شَرِيكَ لَهُ،
1. Allah is One, without any partners.
وَلا شَيْءَ مِثْلُهُ،
2. There is nothing like Him.
وَلا شَيْءَ يُعْجِزُهُ،
3. There is nothing that can overwhelm Him.
وَلا إِلهَ غَيْرُهُ،
4. There is no god other than Him.
قَدِيْمٌ بـِلا ابْتِدَاءٍ، دَائِمٌ بـِلا انْتِهَاءٍ،
5. He is the Eternal without a beginning and enduring without end.
لا يَفْنَى وَلا يَبـِيدُ،
6. He will never perish or come to an end.
وَلا يَكُونُ إِلا مَا يُرِيدُ،
7. Nothing happens except what He wills.
لا تَبْلُغُهُ الأَوْهامُ، وَلا تُدْرِكُهُ الأَفْهامُ،
8. No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can comprehend Him.
وَلا تُشْبـِهُهُ الأَنامُ
9. He is different from any created being.
حَيٌّ لا يَمُوتُ، قَيُّومٌ لا يَنامُ،
10. He is living and never dies and is eternally active and never sleeps.
خَالِقٌ بـِلا حَاجَةٍ، رَازِقٌ لَهُمْ بـِلا مُؤْنَةٍ،
11. He creates without His being in need to do so and provides for His creation without any effort.
مُمِيتٌ بـِلا مَخَافَةٍ، بَاعِثٌ بـِلا مَشَقَّةٍ.
12. He causes death with no fear and restores to life without difficulty.
مَازالَ بـِصِفَاتِهِ قَدِيماً قَبْلَ خَلْقِهِ. لَمْ يَزْدَدْ بـِكَوْنِهِمْ شَيْئاً لَمْ يَكُنْ قَبْلَهُمْ مِنْ صِفَاتِهِ، وَكَما كَانَ بـِصِفَاتِهِ أَزَلِيَّاً كَذلِكَ لا يَزَالُ عَلَيْهَا أَبَدِيَّاً.
13. He has always existed together with His attributes since before creation. Bringing creation into existence did not add anything to His attributes that was not already there. As He was, together with His attributes, in pre-eternity, so He will remain throughout endless time.
لَيْسَ مُنْذُ خَلَقَ الخَلْقَ اسْتَفَادَ اسْمَ الخَالِقِ، وَلا بـِإِحْدَاثِهِ البَرِيَّةَ اسْتَفَادَ اسْمَ البارِي
14. It was not only after the act of creation that He could be described as "the Creator" nor was it only by the act of origination that He could he described as "the Originator."
لَهُ مَعْنى الرُّبوبـِيَّةِ وَلا مَرْبوبٌ، وَمَعْنى الخَالِقِيَّةِ وَلا مَخْلوقٌ،
15. He was always the Lord even when there was nothing to be Lord of, and always the Creator even when there was no creation.
وَكَمَا أَنَّهُ مُحْيِـي المَوْتَى بَعْدَما أَحْيَاهُمْ، اسْتَحَقَّ هَذا الاسْمَ قَبْلَ إِحْيائِهِمْ، كَذلِكَ اسْتَحَقَّ اسْمَ الخَالِقِ قَبْلَ إِنْشَائِهِمْ،
16. In the same way that He is the "Bringer to life of the dead," after He has brought them to life a first time, and deserves this name before bringing them to life, so too He deserves the name of "Creator" before He has created them.
ذلِكَ بـِأَنَّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيْرٌ، وَكُلُّ شَيْءٍ إِلَيْهِ فَقِيرٌ، وَكُلُّ أَمْرٍ عَلَيْهِ يَسيرٌ، لا يَحْتَاجُ إِلَى شَيْءٍلـــَيْسَ كَمِثـــْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ البَصِيرُ
17. This is because He has the power to do everything, everything is dependent on Him, everything is easy for Him, and He does not need anything. "There is nothing like Him and He is the Hearer, the Seer." (al-Shura 42:11)
خَلَقَ الخَلْقَ بـِعِلْمِهِ،
18. He created creation with His knowledge.
وَقَدَّرَ لَهُمْ أَقْداراً،
19. He appointed destinies for those He created.
وَضَرَبَ لَهُمْ آجالاً،
20. He allotted to them fixed life spans.
لَمْ يَخْفَ عَلَيْهِ شَيْءٌ مِنْ أَفْعَالِهِمْ قَبْلَ أَنْ خَلَقَهُمْ، وَعَلِمَ مَا هُمْ عَامِلُونَ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَخْلُقَهُمْ،
21. Nothing about them was hidden from Him before He created them, and He knew everything that they would do before He created them.
وَأَمَرَهُمْ بـِطَاعَتِهِ وَنَهَاهُمْ عَنْ مَعْصِيَتِهِ،
22. He ordered them to obey Him and forbade them to disobey Him.
وَكُلُّ شَيْءٍ يَجْرِي بـِقُدْرَتِهِ وَمَشِيئَتِهِ. وَمَشِيئَتُهُ تَنْفُذُ، وَلا مَشِيئَةَ لِلْعِبَادِ إِلاَّ مَا شَاءَ لَهُمْ، فَمَا شَاءَ لَهُمْ كَانَ وَمَا لَمْ يَشَأْ لَمْ يَكُنْ.
23. Everything happens according to His degree and will, and His will is accomplished. The only will that people have is what He wills for them. What He wills for them occurs and what He does not will, does not occur.
يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَعْصِمُ وَيُعَافِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ فَضْلاً، وَيُضِلُّ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَخْذُلُ وَيَبْتَلِي عَدْلاً
24. He gives guidance to whomever He wills, and protects them, and keeps them safe from harm, out of His generosity; and He leads astray whomever He wills, and abases them, and afflicts them, out of His justice.
وكلهم يتقلبون في مشيئته ، بين فضله وعدله
25. All of them are subject to His will either through His generosity or His justice.
وَهُوَ مُتَعَالٍ عَنِ الأَضْدَّاد وَالأَنْدَاد
26. He is Exalted beyond having opposites or equals.
لا رَادَّ لِقَضَائِهِ، وَلا مُعَقِّبَ لِحُكْمِهِ، وَلا غَالِبَ لأَمْرِهِ،
27. No one can ward off His decree or delay His command or overpower His affairs.
آمَنَّا بِذلِكَ كُلِّهِ، وَأَيْقَنَّا أَنَّ كُلاًّ مِنْ عِنْدِهِ.
28. We believe in all of this and are certain that everything comes from Him.
وَإِنَّ مُحَمَّداً صلى الله عليه وسلم عَبْدُهُ المُصْطَفَى، وَنَبـِيُّهُ المُجْتَبَى، وَرَسُولُهُ المُرْتَضَى،
29. And we are certain that Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) is His chosen Servant and elect Prophet and His Messenger with whom He is well pleased,
خَاتِمُ الأَنْبـِيَاءِ وَإِمَامُ الأَتْقِياءِ، وَسَيِّدُ المُرْسَلِينَ، وَحَبـِيبُ رَبِّ العَالَمِينَ،
30. And that he is the Seal of the Prophets and the Imam of the godfearing and the most honored of all the messengers and the Beloved of the Lord of all the worlds.
وَكُلُّ دَعْوَةِ نُبُوَّةٍ بَعْدَ نُبُوَّتِهِ فَغَيٌّ وَهَوَى؛
31. Every claim to Prophet-hood after Him is falsehood and deceit.
وَهُوَ المَبْعُوثُ إِلى عَامَّةِ الجِنِّ وَكَافَّةِ الوَرَى، المَبْعُوثِ بـِالحَقِّ وَالهُدَى
32. He is the one who has been sent to all the jinn and all mankind with truth and guidance and with light and illumination.
وَإِنَّ القُرْآنَ كَلامُ اللَّهِ تَعَالى، بَدَأَ بـِلا كَيْفِيَّةٍ قَوْلاً، وَأَنْزَلَهُ عَلَى نَبـِيِّهِ وَحْياً، وَصَدَّقَهُ المُؤْمِنُونَ عَلَى ذلِكَ حَقَّــاً، وَأَيْقَنُوا أَنَّهُ كَلامُ اللَّهِ تَعَالَى بـِالحَقِيقَةِ. لَيْسَ بـِمَخْلُوقٍ كَكَلامِ البَرِيَّةِ، فَمَنْ سَمِعَهُ فَزَعَمَ أَنَّهُ كَلامُ البَشَرِ فَقَدْ كَفَرَ، وَقَدْ ذمَّهُ اللَّهُ تَعالَى وَعَابَهُ، وَأَوْعَدَهُ عَذابَهُ، حَيْثُ قَالَ:سَأُصْلِيهِ سَقَرَفَلَمَّا أَوْعَدَ اللَّهُ سَقَرَ لِمَنْ قَالَ:إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا قَوْلُ الْبَشَرِعَلِمْنا أَنَّهُ قَوْلُ خَالِقِ البَشَرِ، وَلا يُشْبـِهُ قَوْلَ البَشَرِ،
33. The Qur'an is the word of Allah. It came from Him as speech without it being possible to say how. He sent it down on His Messenger as revelation. The believers accept it, as absolute truth. They are certain that it is, in truth, the word of Allah. It is not created as is the speech of human beings, and anyone who hears it and claims that it is human speech has become an unbeliever. Allah warns him and censures him and threatens him with Fire when He says, Exalted is He: "I will burn him in the Fire." (al-Muddaththir 74:26) When Allah threatens with the Fire those who say "This is just human speech" (74:25) we know for certain that it is the speech of the Creator of mankind and that it is totally unlike the speech of mankind.
وَمَنْ وَصَفَ اللَّهَ تَعَالَى بـِمَعْنَىً مِنْ مَعَانِي البَشَرِ فَقَدْ كَفَرَ، فَمَنْ أَبْصَرَ هَذا اعْتَبَرَ، وَعَنْ مِثْلِ قَوْلِ الكُفَّارِ انْزَجَرَ، وَعَلِمَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ تَعَالَى بـِصِفَاتِهِ لَيْسَ كَالبَشَرِ.
34. Anyone who describes Allah as being in any way the same as a human being has become an unbeliever. All those who grasp this will take heed and refrain from saying things such as the unbelievers say, and they will know that He, in His attributes, is not like human beings.
Reply

*charisma*
03-21-2019, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
Thank you for answering I honestly am not sure. In the past I thought that we are here to experience life and to learn, and to spread love. I know Islam says our purpose is to worship Allah; I am still trying to understand this concept.
That's correct. In Islam the purpose of life is to worship Allah. My follow-up question is that after you've experienced life, learned, and spread love as you've believed, what are you meeting your lord with and where is it that you expect to go in the afterlife?
Reply

azc
03-21-2019, 05:51 PM
If any non Muslim does any good deeds he is rewarded in this life in form of wealth, fame & popularity etc as no good deed go waste but he has no share of reward in hereafter because despite knowing the truth i.e. Islam, he rejected it. He knows very well the outcome for rejecting the truth.

Don't think too much about other people like Gandhi, mother Teresa, G.B. Shaw and others. They knew what islam is and they knew what'd happen with them for not dying as a Muslim.
E.g. M.K. Gandhi studied Islam. He was an editor of a magazine 'Harijan'

In ‘Harijan’ (issue dated 27-07-1937), Gandhi advised his fellow Congressmen on leading a life of simplicity in this fashion:

“I cannot present before you the examples of Sri Ram Chandr and Sri Krishn as they are not personalities recognized by history. I cannot help but present to you names of Abu Bakar (ra) and Umar (ra). They were leaders of a vast empire, yet they lived a life of austerity".
http://www.ummid.com/news/2015/June/...liph-umar.html

They chose hell fire for themselves. And it's their personal matter, now you think about yourself, Do you want to burn in fire or not...?

Choice is yours.

- - - Updated - - -
@oceanbreeze
Reply

oceanbreeze
03-21-2019, 06:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*
That's correct. In Islam the purpose of life is to worship Allah. My follow-up question is that after you've experienced life, learned, and spread love as you've believed, what are you meeting your lord with and where is it that you expect to go in the afterlife?
Well, I was taught that good people go to heaven/paradise. In recent years I rejected the idea of hell and believed that if you lead a bad life, God will send you back to live again until you make up for your sins. To me, this concept seems more merciful than having people suffer for eternity. But, I don't know what to believe now. What if I've been wrong? Or, what if I choose Islam and that turns out to be wrong? I just want my confusion to go away.

format_quote Originally Posted by axc
f any non Muslim does any good deeds he is rewarded in this life in form of wealth, fame & popularity etc as no good deed go waste but he has no share of reward in hereafter because despite knowing the truth i.e. Islam, he rejected it. He knows very well the outcome for rejecting the truth.

Don't think too much about other people like Gandhi, mother Teresa, G.B. Shaw and others. They knew what islam is and they knew what'd happen with them for not dying as a Muslim.
E.g. M.K. Gandhi studied Islam. He was an editor of a magazine 'Harijan'

In ‘Harijan’ (issue dated 27-07-1937), Gandhi advised his fellow Congressmen on leading a life of simplicity in this fashion:

“I cannot present before you the examples of Sri Ram Chandr and Sri Krishn as they are not personalities recognized by history. I cannot help but present to you names of Abu Bakar (ra) and Umar (ra). They were leaders of a vast empire, yet they lived a life of austerity".
http://www.ummid.com/news/2015/June/...liph-umar.html

They chose hell fire for themselves. And it's their personal matter, now you think about yourself, Do you want to burn in fire or not...?

Choice is yours.
So, would you say that Allah cares more about people acknowledging Him then He does about how we treat others and our planet?
Reply

azc
03-21-2019, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
Well, I was taught that good people go to heaven/paradise. In recent years I rejected the idea of hell and believed that if you lead a bad life, God will send you back to live again until you make up for your sins. To me, this concept seems more merciful than having people suffer for eternity. But, I don't know what to believe now. What if I've been wrong? Or, what if I choose Islam and that turns out to be wrong? I just want my confusion to go away.



So, would you say that Allah cares more about people acknowledging Him then He does about how we treat others and our planet?
I think you are here for trolling.

Anyways, see the answer of your questions
http://islamhelpline.net/answer/1638...uqooq-ul-ibaad

https://islamqa.info/en/categories/t...0%2C2563688070
Reply

oceanbreeze
03-21-2019, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
I think you are here for trolling.

Anyways, see the answer of your questions
http://islamhelpline.net/answer/1638...uqooq-ul-ibaad

https://islamqa.info/en/categories/t...0%2C2563688070
With respect, I am not trolling. I am trying to understand Islam and find God. If I have offended or annoyed you or anyone else on this forum in any way I apologize.

I will review the articles you have linked here. Thank you
Reply

keiv
03-22-2019, 12:17 AM
In order to drive the point home, read the story of Abu Talib.




format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
So, would you say that Allah cares more about people acknowledging Him then He does about how we treat others and our planet?
It's not for any of us to say what Allah thinks. We're given commands and laws to live by. We're given guidance through the Quran and through the prophet pbuh. We also read of the messengers before him, and their people, to reflect on their stories. Ironically, history tends to repeat itself and there are many similarities of the pre-Islamic age going on today but I digress..
Reply

*charisma*
03-22-2019, 12:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
Well, I was taught that good people go to heaven/paradise. In recent years I rejected the idea of hell and believed that if you lead a bad life, God will send you back to live again until you make up for your sins. To me, this concept seems more merciful than having people suffer for eternity. But, I don't know what to believe now. What if I've been wrong? Or, what if I choose Islam and that turns out to be wrong? I just want my confusion to go away.
Ok I see where you're coming from :)

The connection that you have with your Lord cannot be given to you by anyone else nor can it be taken away. The journey that you make to get to Him is not one that anyone else can do for you. Now if you reflect on every thought you've every had, and every action/choice you've ever taken, and the influence you've had in the lives of others, and the influence you've allowed others to have on you, you would never be able to name them or even remember them all even though you've experienced it all first hand. But everything that makes you who you are is known to Allah even if it is concealed in your heart of hearts.

So in the grand scheme of things, Allah knows you better than you know yourself, and it's the same for every single creature (not just humans) created. So unlike the justice system of this world which is limited to and at the mercy of to fallible human beings judging other human beings, you are getting a fair judgment based by the ONLY one who knows EXACTLY who you are. Allah takes into account everything that you are: your intentions/sincerity, your choices, your deeds, your life, etc. Nothing can be hidden from Him. With that being understood, you have to believe that Allah is the All-knowing and Most Just because of these facts. Infact one of His attributes Al-Hakam (the impartial judge), so there’s absolutely no way that you or anyone will be judged unjustly. If you can feel bad for a person without even knowing everything about him, imagine how much love Allah has for His Creation. It is more than you and I could ever imagine.

Now, what's it mean then to "worship Allah?" You said that you thought the purpose of life is to experience it, learn, and spread love. Well regardless of what you believe, I'd say everyone is doing that, even the most evil of people. We are all experiencing life because well, we are living; We are learning because that is part of our nature; and spreading love, well I don't think there is anyone who is incapable of loving unless they legitimately have a mental disorder. I consider this all to be passive living, or just doing what is in our nature. As Muslims however, we know we will be accountable for every action that we do because nothing can be hidden. Whereas someone who does not believe in God or His punishment believes he can live and die without any divine repercussions. Islam is our way of life. Allah comes before everything else in this world, before our desires, before our families, before everything. You said that you believe that good people will go to paradise, but by which standards are you considering someone to be a good/bad person? You only know a fraction of who they are, and that fraction is only based on a few experiences with that person, you know nothing about who they are in secret, how or what they are thinking, how they feel, their past or their future, etc. Your judgement of them is based on whether or not they make you and others happy or how they serve you, but if they make you happy it also doesn’t mean that what they do around you is right. Therefore we have to look at what Islam defines as good or bad, right or wrong. All of our actions are based on these standards, and everything we do must be done for His sake, not just because we are passively living and doing something good simply because it makes us feel good. Since we will be judged by Him, I think it is only fair to say that we should look at His laws. In Islam if we do something evil or if we sin, we have to rectify based on how Allah tells us to rectify it, seek repentance for it from Allah and those we've harmed the way that Allah says the repentance should be made, and never repeat the action. We don’t wait to die to ask for Allah’s mercy, rather we are constantly aware that we err and sin and we must seek Him and repent before the day of judgement.

A person can be good based solely on society’s standards. People do wrong and I hear them often saying "Well why is it wrong if I'm not hurting anyone else?" we forget that besides our physical makeup, we also have minds and souls that will meet Allah. What we do to ourselves affects our souls and it affects the minds and souls of others even if it is not physically harming us. We don’t ask about what the relationship with our Lord should be like. How do we rectified our image in front of our Lord?? What deeds will we be meeting Him with? When everything you do is done through the intention of pleasing Allah first, then your life starts to change. You become more patient, you are more empathetic, your time is used more wisely, you avoid company and actions that harm you or will displease your Lord, you become more accountable for your actions, etc. The difference between believing in Allah and doing something good and just doing something good without that belief, is how it affects your heart and your soul. You know that this deed does not just stop, it is seen by Allah and it is taken into account and Allah’s love for you increases because you didn’t just do it to make yourself feel good but for a purpose much greater than that. You are preparing your soul to meet Him in the end by how you live your life. If you've prepared nothing except empty apologies, then you're pretty much bankrupt. I've written too much, but I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say :) May Allah guide you to Him without difficulty in a way that is clear and special to you.
Reply

M.I.A.
03-22-2019, 09:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
I have been trying to find direction on my spiritual path for some time now. I've been drawn to Islam, but there is one issue that has kept me from taking the Shahadah. It says explicitly in the Quran that people who die as non-believers or who die having attributed partners to Allah without repenting will be sent to hell, and they will be tortured in unimaginable pain for eternity.

Perhaps it's a carryover from my Christian upbringing, but I have always believed that God is pure love. To me, the idea that people who have done terrible things will be punished makes sense, but the idea that God would send most of the world's population to burn in hell forever merely because they chose the wrong religion is not in keeping with a loving God. I have tried to understand this and I simply do not. Yes, it is said that God knows what is truly in our hearts and that He knows best, but then wouldn't He understand why people chose another religion and tried to live a life of goodness and peace? What about people like Gandhi who practiced compassion and nonviolence? What about people who genuinely care for helping the poor? Are they all really doomed?

I don't want to offend anyone. I really am just trying to understand this...

Well what does christianity say about non believers? You must have some sort of previous insight into it.

Maybe you could share it with us.


Imo most people have a hard time grasping the concept because its creation, method and reasoning are not the same as those things we understand.

How can love overcome violence, bigotry, hypocrisy, inequality and so many other abominable things?

And if it can, is it considered a weapon?

...not so clear cut is it?

Totally nothing to do with your question but rather a personal worry regarding what we do and what we claim to do.
Reply

AbdurRahman.
03-22-2019, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
I am still trying to find the truth. There are many things I love about Islam, but this is the one issue that I have had trouble comprehending, as it does not seem merciful to me to send good and kind people to burn forever. But I am trying to keep an open mind on the issue.




I mentioned Gandhi because he is celebrated for being a powerful advocate for peace, love and tolerance. He would have rather died than defend himself with violence and he worked to bring people together. Yet he was primarily Hindu, though he appreciated the tenets of other religions including Islam. I use him as an example to ask how God could send such an amazing person to hell just for not being Muslim. I did not mention Jesus because I understand that Jesus is considered to be a great prophet in Islam and thus would not be sent to hell.




All right then, please enlighten me. Do you mean to tell me that God doesn't love us all?




Thank you for this. I'm still not sure how I feel, but your answer is clear to me.
The highest evil is to deny one's Creator and sustainer and reject Gods guidance hence this can never be forgiven and for this a desbeliever remains in hell forever

If he's been a good and kind person than he gets his reward for that on earth (He gets for whatever benefits he did it for) but since he didn't do it for God, he doesn't get any hereafter reward from God.
Reply

oceanbreeze
03-24-2019, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Well what does christianity say about non believers? You must have some sort of previous insight into it.

Maybe you could share it with us.


Imo most people have a hard time grasping the concept because its creation, method and reasoning are not the same as those things we understand.

How can love overcome violence, bigotry, hypocrisy, inequality and so many other abominable things?

And if it can, is it considered a weapon?

...not so clear cut is it?

Totally nothing to do with your question but rather a personal worry regarding what we do and what we claim to do.
Well, most sects of Christianity affirm that only those who accept Jesus as their lord and savior will go to heaven, the non-believers going to hell for eternity. My parents however taught me that the notion of non-believers going to hell because they disagree with my traditions is judgmental and not loving. I have met many Christians who believe if you live in a way God/Jesus would approve of, you will go to heaven.

The Christian concept of hellfire clashing with the love of God is what largely kept me from fully embracing that religion. And so I've drifted and now I'm at the point where I'm questioning everything I've believed because what I've done isn't working. I have always believed though that love and kindness do in the end overcome hatred and bigotry, though it's obviously not a quick fix as the world is a mess. I don't think love can be a weapon because then it would not be love...

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*
Ok I see where you're coming from :)

The connection that you have with your Lord cannot be given to you by anyone else nor can it be taken away. The journey that you make to get to Him is not one that anyone else can do for you. Now if you reflect on every thought you've every had, and every action/choice you've ever taken, and the influence you've had in the lives of others, and the influence you've allowed others to have on you, you would never be able to name them or even remember them all even though you've experienced it all first hand. But everything that makes you who you are is known to Allah even if it is concealed in your heart of hearts.

So in the grand scheme of things, Allah knows you better than you know yourself, and it's the same for every single creature (not just humans) created. So unlike the justice system of this world which is limited to and at the mercy of to fallible human beings judging other human beings, you are getting a fair judgment based by the ONLY one who knows EXACTLY who you are. Allah takes into account everything that you are: your intentions/sincerity, your choices, your deeds, your life, etc. Nothing can be hidden from Him. With that being understood, you have to believe that Allah is the All-knowing and Most Just because of these facts. Infact one of His attributes Al-Hakam (the impartial judge), so there’s absolutely no way that you or anyone will be judged unjustly. If you can feel bad for a person without even knowing everything about him, imagine how much love Allah has for His Creation. It is more than you and I could ever imagine.

Now, what's it mean then to "worship Allah?" You said that you thought the purpose of life is to experience it, learn, and spread love. Well regardless of what you believe, I'd say everyone is doing that, even the most evil of people. We are all experiencing life because well, we are living; We are learning because that is part of our nature; and spreading love, well I don't think there is anyone who is incapable of loving unless they legitimately have a mental disorder. I consider this all to be passive living, or just doing what is in our nature. As Muslims however, we know we will be accountable for every action that we do because nothing can be hidden. Whereas someone who does not believe in God or His punishment believes he can live and die without any divine repercussions. Islam is our way of life. Allah comes before everything else in this world, before our desires, before our families, before everything. You said that you believe that good people will go to paradise, but by which standards are you considering someone to be a good/bad person? You only know a fraction of who they are, and that fraction is only based on a few experiences with that person, you know nothing about who they are in secret, how or what they are thinking, how they feel, their past or their future, etc. Your judgement of them is based on whether or not they make you and others happy or how they serve you, but if they make you happy it also doesn’t mean that what they do around you is right. Therefore we have to look at what Islam defines as good or bad, right or wrong. All of our actions are based on these standards, and everything we do must be done for His sake, not just because we are passively living and doing something good simply because it makes us feel good. Since we will be judged by Him, I think it is only fair to say that we should look at His laws. In Islam if we do something evil or if we sin, we have to rectify based on how Allah tells us to rectify it, seek repentance for it from Allah and those we've harmed the way that Allah says the repentance should be made, and never repeat the action. We don’t wait to die to ask for Allah’s mercy, rather we are constantly aware that we err and sin and we must seek Him and repent before the day of judgement.

A person can be good based solely on society’s standards. People do wrong and I hear them often saying "Well why is it wrong if I'm not hurting anyone else?" we forget that besides our physical makeup, we also have minds and souls that will meet Allah. What we do to ourselves affects our souls and it affects the minds and souls of others even if it is not physically harming us. We don’t ask about what the relationship with our Lord should be like. How do we rectified our image in front of our Lord?? What deeds will we be meeting Him with? When everything you do is done through the intention of pleasing Allah first, then your life starts to change. You become more patient, you are more empathetic, your time is used more wisely, you avoid company and actions that harm you or will displease your Lord, you become more accountable for your actions, etc. The difference between believing in Allah and doing something good and just doing something good without that belief, is how it affects your heart and your soul. You know that this deed does not just stop, it is seen by Allah and it is taken into account and Allah’s love for you increases because you didn’t just do it to make yourself feel good but for a purpose much greater than that. You are preparing your soul to meet Him in the end by how you live your life. If you've prepared nothing except empty apologies, then you're pretty much bankrupt. I've written too much, but I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say :) May Allah guide you to Him without difficulty in a way that is clear and special to you.
Thank you for this, I think I understand. It does make sense to me that doing good for a higher purpose like God would change you profoundly.

Reply

M.I.A.
03-25-2019, 01:39 PM
what I've done isn't working.
..I don't know what you mean by that.
Reply

oceanbreeze
03-25-2019, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
..I don't know what you mean by that.
What I mean is the religious practice I’ve been following up until now does not seem to satisfy me spiritually. As in I feel disconnected from God
Reply

M.I.A.
03-25-2019, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
What I mean is the religious practice I’ve been following up until now does not seem to satisfy me spiritually. As in I feel disconnected from God

weeell... maybe thats not too bad.

you know, if hes mad at you all the time it would be insufferable.

like star trek the final frontier or something.

Sorry,

Pray more I suppose.
Reply

oceanbreeze
03-25-2019, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
weeell... maybe thats not too bad.

you know, if hes mad at you all the time it would be insufferable.

like star trek the final frontier or something.

Sorry,

Pray more I suppose.
I don’t feel like God is mad at me...I hope He isn’t

- - - Updated - - -

By the way I appreciate your Star Trek reference haha. I too would not worship a being like in the Final Frontier
Reply

M.I.A.
03-25-2019, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by oceanbreeze
I don’t feel like God is mad at me...I hope He isn’t

- - - Updated - - -

By the way I appreciate your Star Trek reference haha. I too would not worship a being like in the Final Frontier
Yeah, I don't it's about worshipping such an entity..

More about making the right choices and following a path that avoids such a fate.

It's all we can do really..

Although the crew of the enterprise are written with such conviction.

It's not how it is but do you know anything else?


...most people should just settle for being written well.
Reply

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