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chalks75
07-17-2019, 02:18 PM
Hi , my name is chalky
I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.
Reply

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Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 02:58 PM
Hi chalky and welcome! :)

The Quran is full of miracles which proves that it's from God so that's why we believe

Check out it's miracles:

http://www.miracles-of-quran.com/

Also see:

https://youtu.be/zh0Sc9Dz7Ks

Miracles of Quran
Miracles of Quran...

Miracles of Quran
Miracles of Quran...
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Hi chalky and welcome! :)

The Quran is full of miracles which proves that it's from God so that's why we believe

Check out it's miracles:

http://www.miracles-of-quran.com/

Also see:

https://youtu.be/zh0Sc9Dz7Ks

Miracles of Quran
Miracles of Quran...

Miracles of Quran
Miracles of Quran...

Muslims are not the only people of faith that claim “ miracles “,
Christians , jews, Buddhists , as a matter of fact , every religion that has ever existed has claimed miracles .

Is it possible that you .... like them ... are wrong ?
Reply

'Abdullah
07-17-2019, 05:23 PM
Since you are an atheist, I think first thing we probably need to establish if the God really exists?

Let me start with a simple example.

Imagine attending an event where everything, from the carpets, to the drapery, to the furniture, dish-ware, cutlery, floral arrangements, to the lighting, color coordination and menu are no less than picture-perfect!

Besides enjoying the perfect environs, what else are you sure the guests would do?

They will undoubtedly inquire about who or which company arranged and managed the event so impeccably. The more high-class and sophisticated the cuisine, decor and ambiance, the greater the received praise for the organizers and event managers who brought it all together.

The same can be said for any perfectly made, exotic culinary dish or dessert; a classy and visually appealing dress or outfit, or any other product of human ingenuity and creativity: the more valuable and finished the end-product, the greater the praise it will get, and the higher esteem, demand, and value will its ‘creator’ garner and enjoy.

It is no wonder then that the “designers” who make it big in their respective industries regardless of what they design or create - be it clothing, home interiors, civic infrastructure, furniture, jewelry, food, hairstyles, technological gadgetry, or scientific inventions - are recognized and respected through and because of their created products. The more fault-free, visually appealing, smoothly functional and beneficial for general use the latter are, the more value, money, respect, demand and awe will its designer be able to demand and receive.

Now imagine if when the guests at the beautifully decorated event inquire which company or individual created the idea behind it and then succeeded in practically executing it so perfectly, they are told that no one did anything; rather, everything just automatically fell into place on its own, without anyone calling the shots.

Would you expect anyone with a sane mind to believe this story?

Any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him.
Analogically, God has created whatever is in the heavens and the earth, and He has done an awe-inspiring perfect job of creation that takes one’s breath away, even if one ponders upon only the most microscopic, minuscule aspect of one of His creations, such as the structure of a single human cell, or the intricate way the wing of a mosquito is made.

The Creator has spread all of the signs of His powers around us, which point clearly to His omnipotence and omnipresence, beholding which, any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him, without even seeing Him.

Let's agree on this first and then we can discuss why Muslims believe that Allah is the true Creator and the only true Divine guidance is Quran. Sounds reasonable?
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Physicist
07-17-2019, 05:35 PM
People have various backgrounds, various things convincing for them.
I'm also from the atheist background and I didn't have to give up on my own believes.

As you call yourself a Truth seeker, honestly putting your cards on a table, it means that you value Truth, you are seeking in a right place bro :)

The central point of Islam is Tawheed, first part of the Shahada which differs muslim from non-muslim.

AshhaduallailaahaillAllah
Literal translation is: I declare that there is no god other than God.

But the meaning of it is that no one or nothing is to be worshipped other than God.

You are seeking for Truth - that effectively meaning that you are seeking for God, or by other words that you worships Allah alone, not some authorities which says you what is truth and what you should believe.

God is not some extra entity you are demanded to believe. No, rather you just need to discover your own fate in yourself.
Consider the Universe (Multiverse) in all its entirety of space, time and whatever else.
Call this Creation. God is beyond Creation.

You may consider religion as a phylosophy, language, way of life and thinking.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Muslims are not the only people of faith that claim “ miracles “,
Christians , jews, Buddhists , as a matter of fact , every religion that has ever existed has claimed miracles .

Is it possible that you .... like them ... are wrong ?
Bhudists do not have any miracles... They do have some spiritual feats that their monks can do but just about any 'spiritualist' can achieve the same (such as astral projection etc)

Jews and Christians can have miracles but that's because their books were originally divine so they could have some revealed miracles intact in their books, however their religions have been superseded by Gods latest religion of Islam now that's been sent to all mankind

Just see them links posted above, the Quranic miracles are too many and too overwhelming to be anything other than from a divine source
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Bhudists do not have any miracles... They do have some spiritual feats that their monks can do but just about any 'spiritualist' can achieve the same (such as astral projection etc)

Jews and Christians can have miracles but that's because their books were originally divine so they could have some revealed miracles intact in their books, however their religions have been superseded by Gods latest religion of Islam now that's been sent to all mankind

Just see them links posted above, the Quranic miracles are too many and too overwhelming to be anything other than from a divine source

That’s the entire point ...how do you know what the source is.

As for Buddhists not having miracles ... read about the death of Buddha
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
That’s the entire point ...how do you know what the source is.

As for Buddhists not having miracles ... read about the death of Buddha
The source is proven my the miraculous nature of the revelations and the miracles the Prophets performed as these can only happen from God
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Since you are an atheist, I think first thing we probably need to establish if the God really exists?

Let me start with a simple example.

Imagine attending an event where everything, from the carpets, to the drapery, to the furniture, dish-ware, cutlery, floral arrangements, to the lighting, color coordination and menu are no less than picture-perfect!

Besides enjoying the perfect environs, what else are you sure the guests would do?

They will undoubtedly inquire about who or which company arranged and managed the event so impeccably. The more high-class and sophisticated the cuisine, decor and ambiance, the greater the received praise for the organizers and event managers who brought it all together.

The same can be said for any perfectly made, exotic culinary dish or dessert; a classy and visually appealing dress or outfit, or any other product of human ingenuity and creativity: the more valuable and finished the end-product, the greater the praise it will get, and the higher esteem, demand, and value will its ‘creator’ garner and enjoy.

It is no wonder then that the “designers” who make it big in their respective industries regardless of what they design or create - be it clothing, home interiors, civic infrastructure, furniture, jewelry, food, hairstyles, technological gadgetry, or scientific inventions - are recognized and respected through and because of their created products. The more fault-free, visually appealing, smoothly functional and beneficial for general use the latter are, the more value, money, respect, demand and awe will its designer be able to demand and receive.

Now imagine if when the guests at the beautifully decorated event inquire which company or individual created the idea behind it and then succeeded in practically executing it so perfectly, they are told that no one did anything; rather, everything just automatically fell into place on its own, without anyone calling the shots.

Would you expect anyone with a sane mind to believe this story?

Any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him.
Analogically, God has created whatever is in the heavens and the earth, and He has done an awe-inspiring perfect job of creation that takes one’s breath away, even if one ponders upon only the most microscopic, minuscule aspect of one of His creations, such as the structure of a single human cell, or the intricate way the wing of a mosquito is made.

The Creator has spread all of the signs of His powers around us, which point clearly to His omnipotence and omnipresence, beholding which, any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him, without even seeing Him.

Let's agree on this first and then we can discuss why Muslims believe that Allah is the true Creator and the only true Divine guidance is Quran. Sounds reasonable?

Beauty is subjective , perfection is also subjective

And I don’t believe that anything came from nothing , if that’s what you are getting at.

All the things you mentioned can be demonstrate to be a result of design , the same cannot he said of the universe.
Your making an equivocation fallacy.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
That’s the entire point ...how do you know what the source is.

As for Buddhists not having miracles ... read about the death of Buddha
That bhudda 'miracle' is only claimed by the bhudists so there is no proof it happened, unlike Islamic miracles that are still in the Quran to see and the Prophet Muhammad's (saw) miracles having been witnessed by many and documented and verifiable preserved to this day
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
The source is proven my the miraculous nature of the revelations and the miracles the Prophets performed as these can only happen from God

How do you know they can only happen by a god?
Which god are you talking about ?
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
That bhudda 'miracle' is only claimed by the bhudists so there is no proof it happened, unlike Islamic miracles that are still in the Quran to see and the Prophet Muhammad's (saw) miracles having been witnessed by many and documented and verifiable preserved to this day
All miracles are claimed by people , the world is chock full of religious people of all faith the believe that their miracles are real.

It’s a common belief among religious people
Reply

Ahmed.
07-17-2019, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
How do you know they can only happen by a god?
Which god are you talking about ?
Brother rather than be sceptical and argue on and on, why don't you see the Islamic evidences for yourself?

I invite you to read an online English translation of the Holy Quran, read a biography (seerah) of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and check out our Prophets' miracles here :

https://www.whyislam.org/muhammad/mi...phet-muhammad/

Keep your heart open to the Truth and ask God for help (you can say 'God if you exist, then please guide me to your truth') and maybe you'll be blessed with that light I've been talking about too:)
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Brother rather than be sceptical and argue on and on, why don't you see the Islamic evidences for yourself?

I invite you to read an online English translation of the Holy Quran, read a biography (seerah) of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and check out our Prophets' miracles here :

https://www.whyislam.org/muhammad/mi...phet-muhammad/

Keep your heart open to the Truth and ask God for help (you can say 'God if you exist, then please guide me to your truth') and maybe you'll be blessed with that light I've been talking about too:)
I’ve read bits of the Quran , it reads pretty much like all the other “ holy books “
I underpays you believe it’s special , just like Christians think the bible is special , or the Jews think the Torah is special , or Hindus believe their holy book is special .

The world is littered with “ holy” books people think is special ... yours is no different
Reply

'Abdullah
07-17-2019, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Beauty is subjective , perfection is also subjective

And I don’t believe that anything came from nothing , if that’s what you are getting at.

All the things you mentioned can be demonstrate to be a result of design , the same cannot he said of the universe.
Your making an equivocation fallacy.
The point I made above was using "Design argument or Teleological argument." Let me give another example, perhaps my last example was not good enough or may be it was too long.
Suppose I find a watch in a desert and upon opening it, I marvel at the intricate wiring and design. There is never a suggestion of the watch coming into existence by ‘accident,’ therefore how could this intricate and complicated world be brought into existence by an ‘accident?’ A lot of care and attention would be required. Therefore, nothing, including the universe, is brought into existence by accident.

Several Examples used as Evidence:

Humans constantly try to change their appearance, whether it is through contact lenses, makeup, fake eyelashes or face lifts, the fact remains that underneath all of that, they still look the same. No one can change their appearance, even through surgery, as the individual cells and DNA of a human being cannot be altered to switch to another specific job. For example, humans can dye their hair another color, such as blonde to brown, but the actual DNA cannot be altered to naturally create brown hair.

A plant cannot grow on its’ own. People give it food and water, but where does the food and water come from? They are both made on Earth but what makes them grow? Where do the nutrients and minerals required come from? Again and again, the source can be questioned. What makes the leaves green? Chlorophyll and sunlight. But where does the sunlight come from? The Sun. How did the Sun come into existence? The Big Bang Theory? What triggered the explosion?

Similarly, the Sun and Moon are kept at the correct distance from the Earth to let humans survive. What keeps them at that distance? Gravity? Who created Gravity? What causes the combustions on the surface of the Sun? Muslims believe that the Designer of everything is Allah, who is the creator and controller of the Universe.

Human beings are another example. We grow from just a blood clot into full adults with various characteristics. Proteins make us grow, but where do the proteins come from? What is the First Cause? Muslims believe this to be Allah. Also, humans breathe mechanically and automatically. If, even for a minute, we concentrated our breathing and tried to breathe, it would become difficult. Muslims believe Allah has made us this way.

Other than the Design Argument, we can also take into account the argument of moral values (good and bad). Many times in our life, we think that ‘I ought to do this’ or ‘this is wrong.’ This is because of our conscience. Most of the time, we know what is right, yet we don’t do it. Muslims believe that all rights and wrongs come from one source: Allah. If we don’t follow those rights or wrongs, it is our choice and free will kicking in. Therefore, the presence of good and bad and of our conscience suggests that there is a higher power. It works like an alarm system to give us a warning and many times we don't listen to this warning. Instead we take refuge in drugs, alcohol and other things to kill our conscious. Our conscious is the reason why people with all the fame and money are still looking for happiness. Depression and suicidal thoughts are highest in individuals who try to find pleasure in anything other than remembering God. When we hear fire alarm we should run away from source of fire but we do the opposite in case of our conscious. We shut off the alarm and run towards the source of fire and as a result can never find true peace and happiness. Anyways the existence of conscience proves there is a higher being.

Last point I am mention shortly and this is about death. Death is a reality which ever one accepts and find no escape from it. This also suggests that there is a higher power over which we have no control.
Reply

Eric H
07-17-2019, 09:30 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

And I don’t believe that anything came from nothing
If you believe that something did not come from anything, then how did all the matter in the universe come into being?

And just as a matter of interest, how can you be absolutely sure there is no God the creator of all that is seen and unseen?

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



If you believe that something did not come from anything, then how did all the matter in the universe come into being?

And just as a matter of interest, how can you be absolutely sure there is no God the creator of all that is seen and unseen?

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
I have no idea how the universe came to be.

I understand you have your religious views to the origins , just like other cultures have their religious views on the matter
Reply

Eric H
07-17-2019, 10:23 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;
Originally Posted by chalks75
I have no idea how the universe came to be.
Either something had to have no beginning, or something did not come from anything. Both these options seem to defy a logical scientific explanation. God seems to be the best answer.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-17-2019, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;


Either something had to have no beginning, or something did not come from anything. Both these options seem to defy a logical scientific explanation. God seems to be the best answer.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

Gods are not explanations , gods are what people make up when they do not know .
Gods are how we define or ignorance.

You are right ,
Either the universe had a beginning or it didn’t .
I don’t know , no one does.

I know you have certain religious beliefs about it .... but that’s just things you believe are true, just like people with other religions brides
Reply

Eric H
07-18-2019, 12:59 AM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

Originally Posted by chalks75
Gods are not explanations , gods are what people make up when they do not know .
Gods are how we define or ignorance.
The creation of the universe is history, either there is a God who created the universe, or there is no god. Regardless as to what you or I may think, we can't change the past.

I watched a programme by Stephen Hawkins recently, he tried to explain how the the matter of the universe always existed in both positive matter and negative matter. He demonstrated this by a man digging a hole and making a mountain. The mountain of earth was the positive matter, and the hole it came from was the negative matter, so they balanced each other out. This seemed a really stupid explanation, the mountain of earth already existed, he just shifted it from one place to another.

Atheism is equally a position of ignorance, you have ruled out the possibility of God with no proof.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

manofIslam
07-18-2019, 02:48 AM
Dear Chalky,

What then, do you think will happen to you when you die? You see: I'm too scared to not believe in Allah (God) because I believe that He will punish me for my sins: especially if I don't believe in his existence!!

I've studied all the religions, and 5 years ago I converted from Christianity to Islam, because once I read The Holy Qur'an I realised that Islam is the ONLY TRUE Religion!!!

So I suggest that you go and have a really good read of the Holy Qur'an, sonny!
Reply

Physicist
07-18-2019, 06:14 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Beauty is subjective , perfection is also subjective

And I don’t believe that anything came from nothing , if that’s what you are getting at.

All the things you mentioned can be demonstrate to be a result of design , the same cannot he said of the universe.
Your making an equivocation fallacy.
Beauty is objective and measurable by mathematical means.
Although often is mistaken for attractiveness, which is of course subjective.

If you consider design as an effort to increase the beauty of outcome, by whatever means available, then you can apply this to the universe as well.
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



The creation of the universe is history, either there is a God who created the universe, or there is no god. Regardless as to what you or I may think, we can't change the past.

I watched a programme by Stephen Hawkins recently, he tried to explain how the the matter of the universe always existed in both positive matter and negative matter. He demonstrated this by a man digging a hole and making a mountain. The mountain of earth was the positive matter, and the hole it came from was the negative matter, so they balanced each other out. This seemed a really stupid explanation, the mountain of earth already existed, he just shifted it from one place to another.

Atheism is equally a position of ignorance, you have ruled out the possibility of God with no proof.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

You are correct
Either there is a god or gods , or there is not.

In my opinion there is not , gods are things people invented in an attempt to explain things that we did not understand.

I’m not a cosmologist , I don’t pretend to know enough about it to decide if something makes sense or not.

The problem with using a god as an explanation is that it falls to you to define what a god is.

Like I said , no one knows how the universe came to be , not you ,not me, not Stephen hawking .
You have beliefs about it , you believe a particular version of a particular god is responsible .
While Stephen hawking would believe there is a natural explanation.

The point is , neither of us know , I don’t claim to know , but you do, it’s a religious claim not a scientific one
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 09:06 AM
Originally Posted by manofIslam
Dear Chalky,

What then, do you think will happen to you when you die? You see: I'm too scared to not believe in Allah (God) because I believe that He will punish me for my sins: especially if I don't believe in his existence!!

I've studied all the religions, and 5 years ago I converted from Christianity to Islam, because once I read The Holy Qur'an I realised that Islam is the ONLY TRUE Religion!!!

So I suggest that you go and have a really good read of the Holy Qur'an, sonny!
What will happen to me when I die ?
My heart will stop beating , the activity in my brain will cease, my organ will stop functioning .... I will be dead , I will cease to be aware of anything ( imagine how things were before you were born )

I will be placed in a hole in the ground , my body will rot , and the universe will repurpose the atoms that I consist of.

Death is the end , which is why life is precious
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by Physicist
Beauty is objective and measurable by mathematical means.
Although often is mistaken for attractiveness, which is of course subjective.

If you consider design as an effort to increase the beauty of outcome, by whatever means available, then you can apply this to the universe as well.
Beauty is certainly not objective
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Design does not always increase beauty, things can be designed to be ugly .

But since beauty and ugly are both subjective ... the argument is mute
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



The creation of the universe is history, either there is a God who created the universe, or there is no god. Regardless as to what you or I may think, we can't change the past.

I watched a programme by Stephen Hawkins recently, he tried to explain how the the matter of the universe always existed in both positive matter and negative matter. He demonstrated this by a man digging a hole and making a mountain. The mountain of earth was the positive matter, and the hole it came from was the negative matter, so they balanced each other out. This seemed a really stupid explanation, the mountain of earth already existed, he just shifted it from one place to another.

Atheism is equally a position of ignorance, you have ruled out the possibility of God with no proof.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

Atheism is not a position of ignorance.

I am not convinced that your god , or any god is real, therefore I am atheist.

I have not ruled out the possibility of a god , but I see no reason to include it as a possibility.
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by manofIslam
Dear Chalky,

What then, do you think will happen to you when you die? You see: I'm too scared to not believe in Allah (God) because I believe that He will punish me for my sins: especially if I don't believe in his existence!!

I've studied all the religions, and 5 years ago I converted from Christianity to Islam, because once I read The Holy Qur'an I realised that Islam is the ONLY TRUE Religion!!!

So I suggest that you go and have a really good read of the Holy Qur'an, sonny!
“ one true religion “
That changes dependant on who you ask.

You have swapped one man made theology for another one .
Reply

Eric H
07-18-2019, 05:46 PM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75

Originally Posted by chalks75
Atheism is not a position of ignorance.
Atheism is most definitely a position of ignorance. You have admitted that you do not know how the universe came to be, you are ignoring the possibility of God. This makes you just as ignorant as your claims against theism, your previous claim seems to condemn you by your own standards.

Gods are not explanations , gods are what people make up when they do not know .
Gods are how we define or ignorance.
In the spirit of searching for God,
Eric
Reply

'Abdullah
07-18-2019, 05:58 PM
How do you determine what is right and what is wrong for you? I have also posted another reply yesterday (link below) and seems like you did not get a chance to respond to my post.

Truth seeker

Truth seeker
Hi , my name is chalky I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the thing...
Reply

manofIslam
07-18-2019, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
what will happen to me when i die ?
My heart will stop beating , the activity in my brain will cease, my organ will stop functioning .... I will be dead , i will cease to be aware of anything ( imagine how things were before you were born )

i will be placed in a hole in the ground , my body will rot , and the universe will repurpose the atoms that i consist of.

Death is the end , which is why life is precious

chalky! Oh, dear!!!!
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by manofIslam
chalky! Oh, dear!!!!
Reality may be harsh .... but at least it’s real.

I would rather face the truth , than believe that after I die I will “ go to the sky to be with my ancestors”, or Valhalla , or heaven , or paradise ... or whatever you believe happens after you die
Reply

'Abdullah
07-18-2019, 07:25 PM
With that thinking we are all in trouble. Hitler killed million and he is done when he is dead. Someone did many wonderful and good things in this world and when died also became dust. What's the point? Does it make sense?
I would also like to know how do you define what is good and what is bad? I mean stealing for example is considered bad but can you prove why it is bad without the concept of life in hereafter?
Reply

Physicist
07-18-2019, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Reality may be harsh .... but at least it’s real.

I would rather face the truth , than believe that after I die I will “ go to the sky to be with my ancestors”, or Valhalla , or heaven , or paradise ... or whatever you believe happens after you die
But by what criterias do you considers what is truth or not?

From just a few hundred years ago perspective, things which are common for you now, would be considered as impossible miracles.

Are you sure that people of the future will be unable to scan the past and make exact copies on molecular level of people before their death?
Reply

manofIslam
07-18-2019, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Reality may be harsh .... but at least it’s real.

I would rather face the truth , than believe that after I die I will “ go to the sky to be with my ancestors”, or Valhalla , or heaven , or paradise ... or whatever you believe happens after you die
Dearest Chalky; But wouldn't you rather believe that Heaven exists, and that you could go there after you die; and be in Paradise forever?!!!
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Physicist
But by what criterias do you considers what is truth or not?

From just a few hundred years ago perspective, things which are common for you now, would be considered as impossible miracles.

Are you sure that people of the future will be unable to scan the past and make exact copies on molecular level of people before their death?
Truth is what the evidence shows is true.

If you can’t show it , you don’t know it .

If you cannot demonstrate a claim is true , you should not claim it is true.

It’s ok to say you believe it’s true.
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
With that thinking we are all in trouble. Hitler killed million and he is done when he is dead. Someone did many wonderful and good things in this world and when died also became dust. What's the point? Does it make sense?
I would also like to know how do you define what is good and what is bad? I mean stealing for example is considered bad but can you prove why it is bad without the concept of life in hereafter?
Unfortunately there is no cosmic justice,
Which is why we should do whatever we can to make sure people get justice in this life .
I do t believe there is an after life.

As for how I determine good and bad , rational thought , people well being is important to me , the society I live in is important to me, it’s the society my kids and grandkids will true up in , so I try to do as little harm and as much good as I can.
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by manofIslam
Dearest Chalky; But wouldn't you rather believe that Heaven exists, and that you could go there after you die; and be in Paradise forever?!!!
It’s a wonderful thought , it would be fantastic if it were true .,. I don’t believe it is.

I think the thoughts of an after life was burn out of mankind’s fear of death , of the unknown.

Death is just a natural part of life , the fact life is so short is what makes it truly special.
Reply

chalks75
07-18-2019, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
The point I made above was using "Design argument or Teleological argument." Let me give another example, perhaps my last example was not good enough or may be it was too long.
Suppose I find a watch in a desert and upon opening it, I marvel at the intricate wiring and design. There is never a suggestion of the watch coming into existence by ‘accident,’ therefore how could this intricate and complicated world be brought into existence by an ‘accident?’ A lot of care and attention would be required. Therefore, nothing, including the universe, is brought into existence by accident.

Several Examples used as Evidence:

Humans constantly try to change their appearance, whether it is through contact lenses, makeup, fake eyelashes or face lifts, the fact remains that underneath all of that, they still look the same. No one can change their appearance, even through surgery, as the individual cells and DNA of a human being cannot be altered to switch to another specific job. For example, humans can dye their hair another color, such as blonde to brown, but the actual DNA cannot be altered to naturally create brown hair.

A plant cannot grow on its’ own. People give it food and water, but where does the food and water come from? They are both made on Earth but what makes them grow? Where do the nutrients and minerals required come from? Again and again, the source can be questioned. What makes the leaves green? Chlorophyll and sunlight. But where does the sunlight come from? The Sun. How did the Sun come into existence? The Big Bang Theory? What triggered the explosion?

Similarly, the Sun and Moon are kept at the correct distance from the Earth to let humans survive. What keeps them at that distance? Gravity? Who created Gravity? What causes the combustions on the surface of the Sun? Muslims believe that the Designer of everything is Allah, who is the creator and controller of the Universe.

Human beings are another example. We grow from just a blood clot into full adults with various characteristics. Proteins make us grow, but where do the proteins come from? What is the First Cause? Muslims believe this to be Allah. Also, humans breathe mechanically and automatically. If, even for a minute, we concentrated our breathing and tried to breathe, it would become difficult. Muslims believe Allah has made us this way.

Other than the Design Argument, we can also take into account the argument of moral values (good and bad). Many times in our life, we think that ‘I ought to do this’ or ‘this is wrong.’ This is because of our conscience. Most of the time, we know what is right, yet we don’t do it. Muslims believe that all rights and wrongs come from one source: Allah. If we don’t follow those rights or wrongs, it is our choice and free will kicking in. Therefore, the presence of good and bad and of our conscience suggests that there is a higher power. It works like an alarm system to give us a warning and many times we don't listen to this warning. Instead we take refuge in drugs, alcohol and other things to kill our conscious. Our conscious is the reason why people with all the fame and money are still looking for happiness. Depression and suicidal thoughts are highest in individuals who try to find pleasure in anything other than remembering God. When we hear fire alarm we should run away from source of fire but we do the opposite in case of our conscious. We shut off the alarm and run towards the source of fire and as a result can never find true peace and happiness. Anyways the existence of conscience proves there is a higher being.

Last point I am mention shortly and this is about death. Death is a reality which ever one accepts and find no escape from it. This also suggests that there is a higher power over which we have no control.

I agree that if I found a watch I would say it is designed ... but how would I know what design is ?
I compare it to the things that I know are not designed !

What in the universe is not designed ?

My morality comes from rational thought , and the recognition that I share this world with others and my actions have consequences that affect others.
Reply

manofIslam
07-19-2019, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
It’s a wonderful thought , it would be fantastic if it were true .,. I don’t believe it is.

I think the thoughts of an after life was burn out of mankind’s fear of death , of the unknown.

Death is just a natural part of life , the fact life is so short is what makes it truly special.


Dear Chalky,

Well, who do you think created the Universe? Because we believe that God created the Universe.

So why don't you believe in God?
Reply

chalks75
07-19-2019, 07:13 AM
Originally Posted by manofIslam
Dear Chalky,

Well, who do you think created the Universe? Because we believe that God created the Universe.

So why don't you believe in God?

I don’t know how the universe came to be , I’ve not seen any evidence that a god is responsible( by the way calling it a creation assumes a creator)

I don’t believe in gods , because I’ve not seen evidence enough to convince me gods are real.

What I do see, is 1000s of man made gods and religions all making the same sorts of claims , all based on the same way of thinking.

We don’t know how the universe came to be ... there must be a god
We don’t know how life began ... it must be a god
We are afraid of death ... there’s a god that stops you from truly dying.

This kind of thinking is seen throughout cultures all over the world
People invent gods , they build religions around them.

I think ,
If you don’t know something , just say you don’t know.

Admitting you do not know , is the foundation of knowledge
Reply

'Abdullah
07-19-2019, 07:57 AM
Hi Chalky,

Let’s approach this in yet another way. Do you agree that the things we see around us are ‘contingent’ or merely ‘possible’. A contingent thing is something that may either exist or not exist; its nature does not guarantee that it exists. Although all the things we experience directly are indeed contingent, there is also something else that exists necessarily, in other words, whose very nature guarantees that it exists.



Since a contingent thing on its own merit could either exist or not exist, it must have some external cause that made it exist - like ‘tipping the scales’ in favor of its existence rather than its non-existence.

Take me, for instance. I am contingent, meaning that I am the sort of thing that could easily have failed to exist. In fact, at one time I didn’t yet exist, and in the future I will cease existing, that proves I’m not necessary.


So there must have been a cause, maybe my parents, who brought me into existence.

Now the aggregate whole of all contingent things – in other words the physical universe – is also contingent. After all, everything in the universe is contingent, so taken all together as one thing, it too must be contingent. Thus it also needs an external cause, just like I do. Since that external cause has to be outside the whole aggregate of contingent things, it cannot itself be contingent. So it is necessary. Hey my friend, we’ve proven that there is a necessary existent which causes all other things! And this, of course, is God.


To summarize, I am trying to show that when you look around and think, ‘All of this could have failed to exist; why is there something, rather than nothing?’ The answer to the question is that not everything can be contingent; that is, not everything could have failed to exist. There must be something that just has to exist, to explain why everything else has wound up existing. I hope it makes sense.


Reply

Eric H
07-19-2019, 08:11 AM
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

I agree that if I found a watch I would say it is designed ... but how would I know what design is ?
The bones in our bodies are just a bunch of levers that can create movement, we have the blueprint as to how our bodies move, so we should be able to mechanically replicate them. Teams of incredibly clever engineers have been trying to make robotic versions of a man, if you see one of these robots, then you will know it is designed. But the best robotic engineers with the most powerful computers can only make a primitive working model of our bodies, the range of movement is poor by comparison.

There is no way blind evolution could do this by random mutation and natural selection, the odds are beyond astronomical. We can send people into space, build huge cruise ships, bridges, buildings, but the human body is more complex than all of these, not to mention our brain. The only answer that makes sense is that God the creator of all that is seen and unseen made us.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-19-2019, 08:28 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



The bones in our bodies are just a bunch of levers that can create movement, we have the blueprint as to how our bodies move, so we should be able to mechanically replicate them. Teams of incredibly clever engineers have been trying to make robotic versions of a man, if you see one of these robots, then you will know it is designed. But the best robotic engineers with the most powerful computers can only make a primitive working model of our bodies, the range of movement is poor by comparison.

There is no way blind evolution could do this by random mutation and natural selection, the odds are beyond astronomical. We can send people into space, build huge cruise ships, bridges, buildings, but the human body is more complex than all of these, not to mention our brain. The only answer that makes sense is that God the creator of all that is seen and unseen made us.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric
You should not conflate atheism with evolution.

You do not have to accept evolution to be atheist.

All the things you mention , bridges , cruise ships , spaceship etc ... all those things , I know are designed because we designed them , I can meet the designers and watch them design something , then see it built.

Can you offer that kind of confirmation for you designer ... no.
What do all those designers have ?
Parents
Does you designer have parents ?

Complexity is not the hallmark of design , simplicity is .

If we were designed by a god , he could have made a better job of it .
Reply

chalks75
07-19-2019, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Hi Chalky,

Let’s approach this in yet another way. Do you agree that the things we see around us are ‘contingent’ or merely ‘possible’. A contingent thing is something that may either exist or not exist; its nature does not guarantee that it exists. Although all the things we experience directly are indeed contingent, there is also something else that exists necessarily, in other words, whose very nature guarantees that it exists.



Since a contingent thing on its own merit could either exist or not exist, it must have some external cause that made it exist - like ‘tipping the scales’ in favor of its existence rather than its non-existence.

Take me, for instance. I am contingent, meaning that I am the sort of thing that could easily have failed to exist. In fact, at one time I didn’t yet exist, and in the future I will cease existing, that proves I’m not necessary.


So there must have been a cause, maybe my parents, who brought me into existence.

Now the aggregate whole of all contingent things – in other words the physical universe – is also contingent. After all, everything in the universe is contingent, so taken all together as one thing, it too must be contingent. Thus it also needs an external cause, just like I do. Since that external cause has to be outside the whole aggregate of contingent things, it cannot itself be contingent. So it is necessary. Hey my friend, we’ve proven that there is a necessary existent which causes all other things! And this, of course, is God.


To summarize, I am trying to show that when you look around and think, ‘All of this could have failed to exist; why is there something, rather than nothing?’ The answer to the question is that not everything can be contingent; that is, not everything could have failed to exist. There must be something that just has to exist, to explain why everything else has wound up existing. I hope it makes sense.

I understand .
The problem I have is that you want to determine when the chain of contingent things stop.

As far as I am aware , everything is contingent on the universe.

But you are saying, then the universe itself must be contingent on something.

I don’t know

Maybe the universe has a cause , maybe it does not
Maybe the cause is a god , maybe it’s not.

If you can present some evidence that the universe has a cause , I will believe the universe has a cause ... I still don’t know what that cause is.

Which brings me to another problem I have

Not only do you claim to know that the universe has a cause , you claim to know what that cause is , not only that , you claim that the cause of the universe dictated a book to an illiterate desert dwelling Arab , 1400 years ago.

How did you make the jump from

The universe may have a cause, to Islam ?

I don’t believe your claims , not just yours , I don’t believe the claims of Christians , Jews,Hindus , Buddhists , or any of the 1000s of other religions man invented.

People invent gods ... it’s a fact .
There have always been people convinced these invented gods are real
IMHO
There are no real gods
There are only people that believe gods are real .
Reply

Ümit
07-19-2019, 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
You should not conflate atheism with evolution.

You do not have to accept evolution to be atheist.

All the things you mention , bridges , cruise ships , spaceship etc ... all those things , I know are designed because we designed them , I can meet the designers and watch them design something , then see it built.

Can you offer that kind of confirmation for you designer ... no.
What do all those designers have ?
Parents
Does you designer have parents ?

Complexity is not the hallmark of design , simplicity is .

If we were designed by a god , he could have made a better job of it .
yes he could...and he did. Angels....much faster than humans...much powerfull...dont need to feed or rest...always obedient...
but God did not create us out of need...we have another purpose...we do not need to be fast or powerfull.
we only need to use our freedom of will and choose for the good over evil.
Reply

Eric H
07-19-2019, 10:30 AM
Greetings and peace be with you

Originally Posted by chalks75
You should not conflate atheism with evolution.

You do not have to accept evolution to be atheist.
Fair enough, so you also like to deny current scientific theory as well as God. If you choose to deny evolution, then give an explanation for how the skeletal system came to be please.

Originally Posted by chalks75
What do all those designers have ?
Parents
Please extrapolate back to a beginning and tell me how the first parents came to be.

Complexity is not the hallmark of design , simplicity is .
There is little simplicity in cruise ships, they have to be designed in detail.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

chalks75
07-19-2019, 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you



Fair enough, so you also like to deny current scientific theory as well as God. If you choose to deny evolution, then give an explanation for how the skeletal system came to be please.



Please extrapolate back to a beginning and tell me how the first parents came to be.



There is little simplicity in cruise ships, they have to be designed in detail.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
I do not deny evolution , I accept evolution
But, my atheism is not dependent on it.
Even if I didn’t accept evolution , I can still be an atheist.

If I cannot offer a explanation for something , that does not make your explanation correct by default.

Cruise ships are as complex as they need to be.
Good design is as simple as it can be and still serve its function.
Reply

Physicist
07-19-2019, 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
If I cannot offer a explanation for something , that does not make your explanation correct by default.

Cruise ships are as complex as they need to be.
Good design is as simple as it can be and still serve its function.
Indeed.
The same principle you can extrapolate to entire universe as well.
The principle of minimal absolute complexity.

Absolute complexity is the minimal amount ot information needed to describe closed system.
For example, number pi in decimal form contains infinite number of digits, but can be described as a simple algorithm.
Reply

chalks75
07-19-2019, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Physicist
Indeed.
The same principle you can extrapolate to entire universe as well.
The principle of minimal absolute complexity.

Absolute complexity is the minimal amount ot information needed to describe closed system.
For example, number pi in decimal form contains infinite number of digits, but can be described as a simple algorithm.

So would you agree that simplicity, not complexity is a hall mark of design ?

You are making a logical fallacy ,
Claiming that because everything we know of is contingent , then everything is contingent.
“ I’ve only seen black swans , therefore all swans are black “
It does not follow.

Let’s be honest

Neither you nor I know how the universe came to be ,
You have a religious viewpoint
You believe it was a particular version of a particular god.
I do not know , but I do not believe it was a god.
I think gods are a concept created by humans in an attempt to answer these fundamental questions.

Let me ask you this

If you believe there is something in an empty box ... can you make logical deductions about it ?
Reply

'Abdullah
07-19-2019, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I agree that if I found a watch I would say it is designed ... but how would I know what design is ?
I compare it to the things that I know are not designed !

What in the universe is not designed ?

My morality comes from rational thought , and the recognition that I share this world with others and my actions have consequences that affect others.
Another good question and I appreciate that you are constantly thinking. Critical thinking is the key to Islam.

Human beings are intelligent enough to recognize the design features because we design several things on daily basis. What we can do is compare the design in mad made thing to Divine design and see if we can unearth the truth?

Let's start with an example of design of a house. Engineers from several disciplines( Civil, structural, architect, mechanical, plumbing, fire protection etc.) will get together to provide design which should meet local City/County codes. I takes years of education and experience for someone to be able to design and stamp these drawings. This way we understand and appreciate the value of design in our daily lives. No is it possible to built this house without any purpose? Will it make sense to design anything without purpose? Answer is NO. Ask yourself another question, is it possible to built this house without any material? Answer is NO again. Is it possible for this house to come into existence by itself. Answer is NO.

Let's move to the Divine design and take myself for example. Is my design in any way and shape even close to the design of the house? No, it is too complex. Just think every human being have different finger prints. If all human get together, they can't produce a single hair. We came into being from mixing of male and female sperms. From those sperms Allah created me and brought me up to be a 6 feet tall man today. Where did this material came from? Allah unlike us creates things from nothing. If the house we created will have a purpose and designer, it will be silly to think that human beings came into existence without a designer and have no purpose.

Allah is unseen but He is the most obvious truth. Are you only denying Allah because you can't see Him? Are there things in like you have not seen and you still believe? Microwaves, radio waves, electricity etc.?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
I understand .
The problem I have is that you want to determine when the chain of contingent things stop.

As far as I am aware , everything is contingent on the universe.

But you are saying, then the universe itself must be contingent on something.

I don’t know

Maybe the universe has a cause , maybe it does not
Maybe the cause is a god , maybe it’s not.

If you can present some evidence that the universe has a cause , I will believe the universe has a cause ... I still don’t know what that cause is.

Which brings me to another problem I have

Not only do you claim to know that the universe has a cause , you claim to know what that cause is , not only that , you claim that the cause of the universe dictated a book to an illiterate desert dwelling Arab , 1400 years ago.

How did you make the jump from

The universe may have a cause, to Islam ?

I don’t believe your claims , not just yours , I don’t believe the claims of Christians , Jews,Hindus , Buddhists , or any of the 1000s of other religions man invented.

People invent gods ... it’s a fact .
There have always been people convinced these invented gods are real
IMHO
There are no real gods
There are only people that believe gods are real .
The key to this is to realize we have a purpose in this life. every designed thing has a purpose and we are not an exception. What is our purpose, is to find God and live life based on the principles He told us in Quran. Why Quran? I have mentioned in my reply to your posts somewhere else that Quran is a living miracle. It is preserves by memory and in text form even since it is revealed. No one can make a change of even a single letter in Quran because we have millions of memorizers who will catch the change. This is very easy to test and verify without getting into textual preservation of Quran. I believe Prophet Muhammad PBUH was illiterate because Quran says so. First thing in this regard is to witness the miracle of Quran and believe it is a miracle and if it is then it has to be from God and everything in it has to be true.

Do We Need to ‘See’ to ‘Know’?

I have heard the phrase “I’ll believe it when I see it” so many times and it makes absolute no sense. There are countless things that are around even if we can’t hear or see them we know they’re there. You turn on the radio and know you can tune into a variety of stations. You can’t see the radio waves as they are invisible. It’s the same with the law of vibration. You can’t see energy but it’s there. Having absolute faith that you can achieve goals you set your mind to knowing it’s possible will attract positive energy towards you.

It is an everyday experience that when you do not know a thing, you look for somebody who knows it and you repose faith in his word and follow him. If you get ill and you cannot treat and cure yourself, you look for the doctor and accept and follow his instructions without question. Why? Because he is properly qualified to give medical advice, possesses experience, and has treated and cured a number of patients. You, therefore, stick to his advice, do whatever he asks you to do, and avoid whatever he forbids.
Similarly, in matters of law you believe in whatever your legal advisers say and act accordingly. In educational matters you have faith in your teacher or instructor and you accept his instructions as true. When you want to go to some place and do not happen to know the way to it, you ask somebody who knows it and follow the way he points out.

In short, the reasonable course that you adopt in the whole of your life about matters which you do not or cannot know is that you approach one who knows them, accept his advice, and act accordingly. As your own knowledge of that matter or problem is inadequate, you carefully search for one who knows that and then silently accept his word. You take every pain to select the proper person. But after selecting the right man, you accept his advice unquestioningly. This kind of belief is called “belief in the unknown.” For here you have relied upon one who knows, in matters you do not know.
As you probably already know, to manifest something you want, you must first believe that you will have it!

Now the only one who has true knowledge of all unseen in God and He has revealed this knowledge in the guidance He has given to humanity in the form of Quran. If you don't believe it then do your honest research. Read religious book of all religions including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. Truth is not hard to be recognized as long as you are sincere to yourself and once you find this truth then the answer to all these unknown should be very clear because it is from God who knows what we don't know.

We don’t need to ‘see’ in order to believe. Faith is to believe in unseen. Believing in something you can see is called evidence not faith.
Reply

matthewjg81
07-19-2019, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed.
Bhudists do not have any miracles... They do have some spiritual feats that their monks can do but just about any 'spiritualist' can achieve the same (such as astral projection etc)

Jews and Christians can have miracles but that's because their books were originally divine so they could have some revealed miracles intact in their books, however their religions have been superseded by Gods latest religion of Islam now that's been sent to all mankind

Just see them links posted above, the Quranic miracles are too many and too overwhelming to be anything other than from a divine source

Hi Ahmed, I hope you're doing well today. :) I'm a new member, and a Christian. There are a LOT of articles on the website you provided, and it would take a long time to look at each. Do you have a top 4 you would recommend a curious person should examine first?
Reply

'Abdullah
07-19-2019, 06:08 PM
Hi Fellow American :happy:

Welcome to your search for Islam. Let me know if I can be of any help?
Reply

Physicist
07-19-2019, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
So would you agree that simplicity, not complexity is a hall mark of design ?

You are making a logical fallacy ,
Claiming that because everything we know of is contingent , then everything is contingent.
“ I’ve only seen black swans , therefore all swans are black “
It does not follow.

Let’s be honest

Neither you nor I know how the universe came to be ,
You have a religious viewpoint
You believe it was a particular version of a particular god.
I do not know , but I do not believe it was a god.
I think gods are a concept created by humans in an attempt to answer these fundamental questions.
There is rather a linguistic fallacy in definition of the word "God".
Sentence "Versions of God" has no sense, because to God we assign everything we don't know.

Ancient people had no idea about nature of lightning strikes for example, it was natural for them to assign that to God.

Then, due to people's fantasy, they were imaging irrelevant things, like some man-like creature is sitting on the cloud, gave him name Zeus, for other unknowns they invented another creature and so on. That is wrong indeed and by the way is the most condemned in Islam as Shirk.

All unknowns must be assigned to one God.
Upon discovering more about nature, we are shifting the boundary of unknown and those wrong images come into conflict with new knowledge.
Upon discovering nature of lightnings, some people getting furious and reject knowledge in defending image of the Zeus. Others, abandoning not only Zeus fairytale, but the concept of God at all.

While driving on some road, to answer the question "Who did create this road", you can simply say "This road was created by God",
or you may go into details, that it was made by such and such people working for that company, using such and such equipment produced by another company, which in turn payd royalties for such and such patents, etc. But however detailed is your explanation, you will have to terminate it somewhere.

Let me ask you this

If you believe there is something in an empty box ... can you make logical deductions about it ?
Yes, you can invent infinite number of versions about what is inside but that has no sense, until you have some interaction with that box.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-19-2019, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
As for how I determine good and bad , rational thought , people well being is important to me , the society I live in is important to me, it’s the society my kids and grandkids will true up in , so I try to do as little harm and as much good as I can.
If we are to leave this issue of determining good and bad to an individual level, we would see that each person has their individual perception of good and evil, whether this perception is based upon religion, law, culture, or individual contemplation. One might believe that it is perfectly acceptable to commit adultery while another might think it to be wrong. One might believe that it is permissible for them to indulge in narcotics since it is their own body, and others might believe it to be a crime. None would be able to say that anything is right or wrong, and all people would be left to their own devices to believe and practice what they perceive as “correct.”


If we were to implement this belief in society, we would have a community based upon anarchy, where no laws could be legislated nor executed, for law is based upon the principle that certain things are to be good and others are evil. If one were to say that there are certain truths agreed to by all humans which can be used to legislate laws, this statement is true to a certain limit, as we stated that all humans do naturally have a trait to know right from wrong in a limited sense. But as seen, this trait many times becomes perverted through environmental, psychological, or religious factors, in that certain acts which were at one time seen as evil and immoral are later seen as sound and acceptable, and some things which do not accord to human nature are seen to be the keys to salvation. This can be clearly observed in democratic societies which base their laws on the majority. We see that many things which were considered to be outright absurd or immoral are now socially acceptable, to the extent that if one holds a different opinion in regards to the issue, they are seen as outcasts.


For this reason, humans cannot be left to their own accords to legislate what is correct and incorrect. Even in societies of the same religion which have instituted the separation of religion and state, although they are in agreement to those things which they maintained from their religion, they differ greatly in regards to what is deemed correct and incorrect in their societies. What is considered as the legal age of consent to sex in France is considered rape in America. While abortion is legal in one country, it is a crime in another, and when homosexuality is seen as a valid way of life in one society, it is seen as a grave sin in another.


So if we now say that the truth is absolute and one and is not relative to each individual and society, then the next question is what are the morals which make truth manifest and who is to decide them? What are the laws which should be implemented in society? Should they be decided by lawyers and judges who have reached a level of “legal enlightenment”, politicians who usually make decisions for their own benefit or the benefit of their own countries, or philosophers which have come to know the universal truths through their own contemplation? As seen earlier, humans cannot be left to decide these issues, lest there be catastrophic results, as seen today in many societies ridden with numerous ills. The only One who has the right to legislate right and wrong is the One who created us and knows what is best for us, and that is God Almighty. It is God who created the world and it is God who set the scales of justice. It is God who is perfect and it is God who has no faults whatsoever.
Reply

manofIslam
07-20-2019, 03:40 AM
quote icon - Originally Posted by manofIslam viewpost right -
Dear Chalky,

Well, who do you think created the Universe? Because we believe that God created the Universe.

So why don't you believe in God?




I don’t know how the universe came to be , I’ve not seen any evidence that a god is responsible( by the way calling it a creation assumes a creator)

I don’t believe in gods , because I’ve not seen evidence enough to convince me gods are real.

What I do see, is 1000s of man made gods and religions all making the same sorts of claims , all based on the same way of thinking.

We don’t know how the universe came to be ... there must be a god
We don’t know how life began ... it must be a god
We are afraid of death ... there’s a god that stops you from truly dying.

This kind of thinking is seen throughout cultures all over the world
People invent gods , they build religions around them.

I think ,
If you don’t know something , just say you don’t know.

Admitting you do not know , is the foundation of knowledge




Oh, Chalky! Are you really an Atheist?! Do you really and truly believe that there is no God?!!
Reply

Ahmed.
07-20-2019, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by matthewjg81
Hi Ahmed, I hope you're doing well today. :) I'm a new member, and a Christian. There are a LOT of articles on the website you provided, and it would take a long time to look at each. Do you have a top 4 you would recommend a curious person should examine first?
Them links I provided, 1 has many scientific miracles of Islam in there, you don't have to go through all of them but you can check out a few if you have the time

The second link is a video about a Scholar talking about in what other ways Quran is a miracle. It is an amalgamation of a few videos put together however you can listen to it as much as you prefer . Even a half hour listen will give you some example of those miracles

For shorter and more concise videos, here's a couple of good ones:

https://youtu.be/1eBCa-vw6Ss

https://youtu.be/vOYpjZywUPA
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by manofIslam
quote icon - Originally Posted by manofIslam viewpost right -
Dear Chalky,

Well, who do you think created the Universe? Because we believe that God created the Universe.

So why don't you believe in God?




I don’t know how the universe came to be , I’ve not seen any evidence that a god is responsible( by the way calling it a creation assumes a creator)

I don’t believe in gods , because I’ve not seen evidence enough to convince me gods are real.

What I do see, is 1000s of man made gods and religions all making the same sorts of claims , all based on the same way of thinking.

We don’t know how the universe came to be ... there must be a god
We don’t know how life began ... it must be a god
We are afraid of death ... there’s a god that stops you from truly dying.

This kind of thinking is seen throughout cultures all over the world
People invent gods , they build religions around them.

I think ,
If you don’t know something , just say you don’t know.

Admitting you do not know , is the foundation of knowledge




Oh, Chalky! Are you really an Atheist?! Do you really and truly believe that there is no God?!!
No.
There is a subtle difference that you are not grasping.

I do not believe there are gods
Is different from
I believe there is no gods.

I do not believe gods are real
I’ve not seen any evidence that would compel me to believe gods are real.
I’ve not heard any argument that has convinced me that gods are real.

The arguments used by Muslims are the exact same arguments used by Christians , slightly altered to suit their particular version of the god .
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 10:34 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Another good question and I appreciate that you are constantly thinking. Critical thinking is the key to Islam.

Human beings are intelligent enough to recognize the design features because we design several things on daily basis. What we can do is compare the design in mad made thing to Divine design and see if we can unearth the truth?

Let's start with an example of design of a house. Engineers from several disciplines( Civil, structural, architect, mechanical, plumbing, fire protection etc.) will get together to provide design which should meet local City/County codes. I takes years of education and experience for someone to be able to design and stamp these drawings. This way we understand and appreciate the value of design in our daily lives. No is it possible to built this house without any purpose? Will it make sense to design anything without purpose? Answer is NO. Ask yourself another question, is it possible to built this house without any material? Answer is NO again. Is it possible for this house to come into existence by itself. Answer is NO.

Let's move to the Divine design and take myself for example. Is my design in any way and shape even close to the design of the house? No, it is too complex. Just think every human being have different finger prints. If all human get together, they can't produce a single hair. We came into being from mixing of male and female sperms. From those sperms Allah created me and brought me up to be a 6 feet tall man today. Where did this material came from? Allah unlike us creates things from nothing. If the house we created will have a purpose and designer, it will be silly to think that human beings came into existence without a designer and have no purpose.

Allah is unseen but He is the most obvious truth. Are you only denying Allah because you can't see Him? Are there things in like you have not seen and you still believe? Microwaves, radio waves, electricity etc.?

- - - Updated - - -



The key to this is to realize we have a purpose in this life. every designed thing has a purpose and we are not an exception. What is our purpose, is to find God and live life based on the principles He told us in Quran. Why Quran? I have mentioned in my reply to your posts somewhere else that Quran is a living miracle. It is preserves by memory and in text form even since it is revealed. No one can make a change of even a single letter in Quran because we have millions of memorizers who will catch the change. This is very easy to test and verify without getting into textual preservation of Quran. I believe Prophet Muhammad PBUH was illiterate because Quran says so. First thing in this regard is to witness the miracle of Quran and believe it is a miracle and if it is then it has to be from God and everything in it has to be true.

Do We Need to ‘See’ to ‘Know’?

I have heard the phrase “I’ll believe it when I see it” so many times and it makes absolute no sense. There are countless things that are around even if we can’t hear or see them we know they’re there. You turn on the radio and know you can tune into a variety of stations. You can’t see the radio waves as they are invisible. It’s the same with the law of vibration. You can’t see energy but it’s there. Having absolute faith that you can achieve goals you set your mind to knowing it’s possible will attract positive energy towards you.

It is an everyday experience that when you do not know a thing, you look for somebody who knows it and you repose faith in his word and follow him. If you get ill and you cannot treat and cure yourself, you look for the doctor and accept and follow his instructions without question. Why? Because he is properly qualified to give medical advice, possesses experience, and has treated and cured a number of patients. You, therefore, stick to his advice, do whatever he asks you to do, and avoid whatever he forbids.
Similarly, in matters of law you believe in whatever your legal advisers say and act accordingly. In educational matters you have faith in your teacher or instructor and you accept his instructions as true. When you want to go to some place and do not happen to know the way to it, you ask somebody who knows it and follow the way he points out.

In short, the reasonable course that you adopt in the whole of your life about matters which you do not or cannot know is that you approach one who knows them, accept his advice, and act accordingly. As your own knowledge of that matter or problem is inadequate, you carefully search for one who knows that and then silently accept his word. You take every pain to select the proper person. But after selecting the right man, you accept his advice unquestioningly. This kind of belief is called “belief in the unknown.” For here you have relied upon one who knows, in matters you do not know.
As you probably already know, to manifest something you want, you must first believe that you will have it!

Now the only one who has true knowledge of all unseen in God and He has revealed this knowledge in the guidance He has given to humanity in the form of Quran. If you don't believe it then do your honest research. Read religious book of all religions including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. Truth is not hard to be recognized as long as you are sincere to yourself and once you find this truth then the answer to all these unknown should be very clear because it is from God who knows what we don't know.

We don’t need to ‘see’ in order to believe. Faith is to believe in unseen. Believing in something you can see is called evidence not faith.
I agree
We do not need to see to believe
I accept gravitational theory , even through I cannot see gravity
I assume you accept the theory of gravity ?

The Quran is just a book , that a small fraction of people attribute special meaning to, it would not matter if every single person on earth memorised it .... that does not make it true , it would not matter if the book wasn’t changed from then to now , that does not make it true.

I do agree that if you do not know something then you should seek the people that have studied these things .... which is why
If I want to know about the universe I will seek out a cosmologist
If I want to know about medicine I will seek out a doctor
If I want to know about life , I will seek out a biologist
If I want to know about mechanics , I will seek out an engineer
If I want to know about forces and movement, I will see out a physicist
If I want to know about gods and religions I will seek out a theologian.

I understand you have religious beliefs , I see no reason to believe yours are any more true that the 1000s of others that people invented over the past 10,000 years .

I see no reason to believe that people living 4000-2000- 1400 years ago, know more that we do now.

Claims of revealed knowledge is a common trait among religions , that , and promises of eternal life
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by Physicist
There is rather a linguistic fallacy in definition of the word "God".
Sentence "Versions of God" has no sense, because to God we assign everything we don't know.

Ancient people had no idea about nature of lightning strikes for example, it was natural for them to assign that to God.

Then, due to people's fantasy, they were imaging irrelevant things, like some man-like creature is sitting on the cloud, gave him name Zeus, for other unknowns they invented another creature and so on. That is wrong indeed and by the way is the most condemned in Islam as Shirk.

All unknowns must be assigned to one God.
Upon discovering more about nature, we are shifting the boundary of unknown and those wrong images come into conflict with new knowledge.
Upon discovering nature of lightnings, some people getting furious and reject knowledge in defending image of the Zeus. Others, abandoning not only Zeus fairytale, but the concept of God at all.

While driving on some road, to answer the question "Who did create this road", you can simply say "This road was created by God",
or you may go into details, that it was made by such and such people working for that company, using such and such equipment produced by another company, which in turn payd royalties for such and such patents, etc. But however detailed is your explanation, you will have to terminate it somewhere.



Yes, you can invent infinite number of versions about what is inside but that has no sense, until you have some interaction with that box.
You assign everything you don’t know to “ a god”
Why don’t you just say you don’t know , instead of offering a supernatural explanation.
The term “ a god” becomes meaningless if it just means “ the things we do not know “
But
That’s not all “ a god” means , there has been multiple theologies built around the concept.
Which god is responsible for what ... that depends on who you ask ,and when you ask them.
Gods are a concept that we use to try and explain the things we do not know , you have pretty much confined what I believed.

As for the box ,I agree you can make logical deductions about what’s in the box ...even though it is empty.
The true answer is “ I do not know what, if anything is in the box”
( agnostic)

The same principle can be used in regards to the universe , you don’t know how the universe came to be ,nor do I .
( agnostic)

You assume there is something outside the universe ,so like the empty box ,you can make logical deductions about what you think is there.

If we were to be honest , and leave our beliefs to one side for a moment

We don’t know how the universe came to be.
Reply

'Abdullah
07-21-2019, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I agree
We do not need to see to believe
I accept gravitational theory , even through I cannot see gravity
I assume you accept the theory of gravity ?

The Quran is just a book , that a small fraction of people attribute special meaning to, it would not matter if every single person on earth memorised it .... that does not make it true , it would not matter if the book wasn’t changed from then to now , that does not make it true.

I do agree that if you do not know something then you should seek the people that have studied these things .... which is why
If I want to know about the universe I will seek out a cosmologist
If I want to know about medicine I will seek out a doctor
If I want to know about life , I will seek out a biologist
If I want to know about mechanics , I will seek out an engineer
If I want to know about forces and movement, I will see out a physicist
If I want to know about gods and religions I will seek out a theologian.

I understand you have religious beliefs , I see no reason to believe yours are any more true that the 1000s of others that people invented over the past 10,000 years .

I see no reason to believe that people living 4000-2000- 1400 years ago, know more that we do now.

Claims of revealed knowledge is a common trait among religions , that , and promises of eternal life
You said that if you need to know about religion and gods you will seek out a theologian. I know that's why you are here and I appreciate your sincere search to find the truth. You also said that there are more than 1000 other religions and many of those are invented by man. That is true as well. And this all helps to find our the true religion. For example, let's take Christianity for example. How many versions of Bible they have? Which version of Bible is true? Is there any contradiction is Bible? There are countless if you ask me but you better ask that question to a Christian and I am sure they will agree with what I said. Now compare that to Quran:
1. Quran's is preserved ever since it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad PBUH. In my last post I mentioned how it is memorized through our generations. You probably don't see any value in it but it is one way of preserving the Divine message in the chests if believers. Human beings can change text as we have seen what they did with Bible, but there is nothing one can do when Divine message in preserved in text form as well as in the human memory.
2. There is no version of Quran. Every Muslim, Arabic or non-Arabic reads Quran in Arabic. Translation of Quran is not considered equivalent to Quran but you will see that even translation have great power to convince the people who are searching for truth.
3. There are no contradictions in Quran.
4. Quran agree 100% with all scientific facts (not theories).

These are some of the points which separates Quran and Islam from any other religion. I have two separate threads which you may have seen. One is true religion and other is Logical Proof that Islam is the true religion. I have discussed these in more depth in those threads. Next week I am hoping to start working on few other threads which will be logical arguments to prove God exists and second probably about proofs that Islam is the only true religion. I really hope those threads will help you and many others on this form.
Reply

chalks75
07-21-2019, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
You said that if you need to know about religion and gods you will seek out a theologian. I know that's why you are here and I appreciate your sincere search to find the truth. You also said that there are more than 1000 other religions and many of those are invented by man. That is true as well. And this all helps to find our the true religion. For example, let's take Christianity for example. How many versions of Bible they have? Which version of Bible is true? Is there any contradiction is Bible? There are countless if you ask me but you better ask that question to a Christian and I am sure they will agree with what I said. Now compare that to Quran:
1. Quran's is preserved ever since it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad PBUH. In my last post I mentioned how it is memorized through our generations. You probably don't see any value in it but it is one way of preserving the Divine message in the chests if believers. Human beings can change text as we have seen what they did with Bible, but there is nothing one can do when Divine message in preserved in text form as well as in the human memory.
2. There is no version of Quran. Every Muslim, Arabic or non-Arabic reads Quran in Arabic. Translation of Quran is not considered equivalent to Quran but you will see that even translation have great power to convince the people who are searching for truth.
3. There are no contradictions in Quran.
4. Quran agree 100% with all scientific facts (not theories).

These are some of the points which separates Quran and Islam from any other religion. I have two separate threads which you may have seen. One is true religion and other is Logical Proof that Islam is the true religion. I have discussed these in more depth in those threads. Next week I am hoping to start working on few other threads which will be logical arguments to prove God exists and second probably about proofs that Islam is the only true religion. I really hope those threads will help you and many others on this form.
It does not matter how many people memorise the Quran ... that has no bearing on its truth.
It makes no difference if the Quran has been unaltered since it was written down ... that has no bearing on its truth.

If lots of people memorise something that is untrue... does it make it true ? No

I have spoke to many Christians , quite a few , if not most , would say that there are no contradictions in the bible ... I think they are afraid to admit that there are , because they feel if they admit one fault it undermines it all.

Even if the bible or Quran were perfectly internally consistent .... that does not mean the claims are true.

I struggle to see how your god claims differ from any others now or historic.

Does the Quran make any “ scientific “ claims ?

(Science is a method of thinking that was formalised around 200 years ago ,so strictly speaking there can be no scientific claims in the Quran ,but for the sake of argument , does the Quran make any claims about the universe or anything in it that could be tested scientifically)

For instance the bible claims the world is flat and has a dome over it,
Reply

Physicist
07-21-2019, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
If lots of people memorise something that is untrue... does it make it true ? No
Are you sure? :)
If someone will convince people that some particular bank will bankrupt soon,
doesn't matter how healthy was that bank before, people will hurry to withdraw their funds from and it will go bankrupt.

One may analize Qur'an for inconsistencies to criticize it, deducing psychological portrait of the Prophet, even there are institutions which doing so to support atheistic point of view. Sure they are seing what they want to see.
It's like analizing a key to the door.
Reply

Physicist
07-21-2019, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
You assign everything you don’t know to “ a god”
Why don’t you just say you don’t know , instead of offering a supernatural explanation.
The term “ a god” becomes meaningless if it just means “ the things we do not know “
But
That’s not all “ a god” means , there has been multiple theologies built around the concept.
Which god is responsible for what ... that depends on who you ask ,and when you ask them.
Gods are a concept that we use to try and explain the things we do not know , you have pretty much confined what I believed.

As for the box ,I agree you can make logical deductions about what’s in the box ...even though it is empty.
The true answer is “ I do not know what, if anything is in the box”
( agnostic)

The same principle can be used in regards to the universe , you don’t know how the universe came to be ,nor do I .
( agnostic)

You assume there is something outside the universe ,so like the empty box ,you can make logical deductions about what you think is there.

If we were to be honest , and leave our beliefs to one side for a moment

We don’t know how the universe came to be.
However it seems useless, it's necessary to say "InshaAllah" or "Due to the God's will" instead of "I don't know" to grasp religious viewpoint.

That's good for agnostic level, when you are able to speak both to atheists and believers.


Atheistic point of view confined to the cause-effect sequence, confined to the time flow.
This may seems enough for local effects, if one operate probabilities of random events in classical sense.
Like in newtonian mechanics, one may add velocities without caring about relativistic effects.
Or, like euclidian relativistic physics which don't care about curvature of the universe hypershere.

Because for the global picture, one has take into account an extra, kind of "divine force of unseen", which doesn't confined with time but is rather "orthogonal", affecting probabilities of events in order to decrease absolute complexity of the system.
No one knows how does unseen work but simply considering multitude of rare random events which brought us into existence as observers, makes such theory more probable than a mere sequence of random events.

That's for agnostictheism or Tawheed.
Reply

manofIslam
07-22-2019, 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
No.
There is a subtle difference that you are not grasping.

I do not believe there are gods
Is different from
I believe there is no gods.

I do not believe gods are real
I’ve not seen any evidence that would compel me to believe gods are real.
I’ve not heard any argument that has convinced me that gods are real.

The arguments used by Muslims are the exact same arguments used by Christians , slightly altered to suit their particular version of the god .

Dear Chalky,

Well, you sound like a very intelligent man; and all I can do now, is to invite you to Islam! So Chalky: I Invite you to Islam; and I invite you to read and study our Holy Qur'an: My reading of The Holy Qur'an was what made me realise that Islam is indeed, the only true religion; and so I converted to Islam; and Allah (God) wants all of us to be Muslims!
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by manofIslam
Dear Chalky,

Well, you sound like a very intelligent man; and all I can do now, is to invite you to Islam! So Chalky: I Invite you to Islam; and I invite you to read and study our Holy Qur'an: My reading of The Holy Qur'an was what made me realise that Islam is indeed, the only true religion; and so I converted to Islam; and Allah (God) wants all of us to be Muslims!
Thank you for the invitation
Ive read parts of the Quran , all of the bible a couple of times.
From what I’ve read of both books , I find them uninspiring , full of Bronze Age superstitions.
In the spirt of reciprocity,
I invite you to open your eyes [emoji3]
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Physicist
However it seems useless, it's necessary to say "InshaAllah" or "Due to the God's will" instead of "I don't know" to grasp religious viewpoint.

That's good for agnostic level, when you are able to speak both to atheists and believers.


Atheistic point of view confined to the cause-effect sequence, confined to the time flow.
This may seems enough for local effects, if one operate probabilities of random events in classical sense.
Like in newtonian mechanics, one may add velocities without caring about relativistic effects.
Or, like euclidian relativistic physics which don't care about curvature of the universe hypershere.

Because for the global picture, one has take into account an extra, kind of "divine force of unseen", which doesn't confined with time but is rather "orthogonal", affecting probabilities of events in order to decrease absolute complexity of the system.
No one knows how does unseen work but simply considering multitude of rare random events which brought us into existence as observers, makes such theory more probable than a mere sequence of random events.

That's for agnostictheism or Tawheed.
“ rare , random events that brought us into existence “

It does not matter if you are talking about life or the universe , no one knows how either began
So how do you know that it was rare or random

This is another case of saying “ a god did it”
Rather than saying” I don’t know”

It must be comforting to believe you know all the answers, not just of puzzling questions today , but of any question that could be posed in the future,

Have you ever wondered why so many different cultures all came to different conclusions about fundamental questions like our origin or the origin of life .... it’s because nobody knows , we didn’t then , we don’t now .... so what do people do , they invent an explanation as best they can... we call those explanations gods.

It’s an indisputable fact , people invent gods.
It’s an indisputable fact , people become convinced those gods are real.
It’s an indisputable fact , they convince other people those gods are real.
It’s an indisputable fact, parents convince their children , the gods are real.

No matter which religious person you ask , they are always convinced that their “ god” is real , and all the other gods are false.

I’m not sure what you make of this

It demonstrates to me , it’s possible for billions of people to believe something is real, when it has no basis in reality
This is especially true in relation to gods and religions .
Reply

manofIslam
07-22-2019, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Thank you for the invitation
Ive read parts of the Quran , all of the bible a couple of times.
From what I’ve read of both books , I find them uninspiring , full of Bronze Age superstitions.
In the spirt of reciprocity,
I invite you to open your eyes [emoji3]
Thank you!

But Chalky: what if we are right?!! What if you face God when you die, and He asks you why you have been an Atheist?!!
Reply

chalks75
07-22-2019, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by manofIslam
Thank you!

But Chalky: what if we are right?!! What if you face God when you die, and He asks you why you have been an Atheist?!!
In all honestly I do t not believe in gods or a god
So if a god judges me harshly for my honestly .. there is nothing I can do.

What if I’m right , you will have spend your life worshiping a idea , or what if the Christians are right , you will go to hell , or if the Hindus are right ... what if the Mormons are right , or Scientologist ,, what if the Buddhists are right?
Reply

Physicist
07-22-2019, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
“ rare , random events that brought us into existence “

It does not matter if you are talking about life or the universe , no one knows how either began
So how do you know that it was rare or random

This is another case of saying “ a god did it”
Rather than saying” I don’t know”

It must be comforting to believe you know all the answers, not just of puzzling questions today , but of any question that could be posed in the future,

Have you ever wondered why so many different cultures all came to different conclusions about fundamental questions like our origin or the origin of life .... it’s because nobody knows , we didn’t then , we don’t now .... so what do people do , they invent an explanation as best they can... we call those explanations gods.

It’s an indisputable fact , people invent gods.
It’s an indisputable fact , people become convinced those gods are real.
It’s an indisputable fact , they convince other people those gods are real.
It’s an indisputable fact, parents convince their children , the gods are real.

No matter which religious person you ask , they are always convinced that their “ god” is real , and all the other gods are false.

I’m not sure what you make of this

It demonstrates to me , it’s possible for billions of people to believe something is real, when it has no basis in reality
This is especially true in relation to gods and religions .
I don't suggest you to just believe something, as a fellow scientific minded person, only inviting you to consider as a theory.

For me, from accepting that agnostictheism theory I described above until embracing Islam, it took 12 years of pondering and I didn't read much from Qur'an before.
And I never give up on scientific approach, so, neither am expecting you to do so.

Of course, if you are trying to evaluate religion as a science you are seing too many fallacies. Like if you would try to evaluate neural network as an imperative language program.
However, you can try to consider as a phenomenon, to see it's role in mankind's development.

Try to consider human brain in it's entirety, including subconscious data processing.
Our conscious thinking is only a top of an iceberg, relatively new and confined with language.
During day time mammals are simply reacting to environment, they are processing data at night, during REM phase of the sleeping.
Reply

manofIslam
07-22-2019, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
In all honestly I do t not believe in gods or a god
So if a god judges me harshly for my honestly .. there is nothing I can do.

What if I’m right , you will have spend your life worshiping a idea , or what if the Christians are right , you will go to hell , or if the Hindus are right ... what if the Mormons are right , or Scientologist ,, what if the Buddhists are right?


Ah, Chalky: you're a hard man to convince!! But I admire your tenacity!!!

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Physicist
I don't suggest you to just believe something, as a fellow scientific minded person, only inviting you to consider as a theory.

For me, from accepting that agnostictheism theory I described above until embracing Islam, it took 12 years of pondering and I didn't read much from Qur'an before.
And I never give up on scientific approach, so, neither am expecting you to do so.

Of course, if you are trying to evaluate religion as a science you are seing too many fallacies. Like if you would try to evaluate neural network as an imperative language program.
However, you can try to consider as a phenomenon, to see it's role in mankind's development.

Try to consider human brain in it's entirety, including subconscious data processing.
Our conscious thinking is only a top of an iceberg, relatively new and confined with language.
During day time mammals are simply reacting to environment, they are processing data at night, during REM phase of the sleeping.


Well said, Bro!!
Reply

SintoDinto
07-23-2019, 05:33 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
In all honestly I do t not believe in gods or a god
So if a god judges me harshly for my honestly .. there is nothing I can do.

What if I’m right , you will have spend your life worshiping a idea , or what if the Christians are right , you will go to hell , or if the Hindus are right ... what if the Mormons are right , or Scientologist ,, what if the Buddhists are right?
Consider what I have learned from the Risale-i-Nur (in my own words, i may sound cheesy).
But first, I'll start off with a modern favorite not known in the time of bediuzzaman said nursi (rh) What created the big bang?
2nd: naturalistic atheism is irrational because it supposes that rather than the causer of causes unifying all things together under his most effective command, all of nature in perfect harmony, (when humans are not around, an argument in favor of the idea that humans were not meant for this world because when humans are not around the ecosystem works just fine, regardless of competition, universally it is given that since the dawn of agriculture we are an invasive species), and the whole universe and cosmos in perfect harmony in all its wonders, in one single unity, rather than one entity creating all that there is, from nothing and evolving it, you would have to have as many typewriters as there are letters to produce a single letter in a single book, a single atom becomes as difficult as the creation of a single planet, the creation of a single cell becomes as difficult as the creation of a single species. how can they come together? and nature shows us that the weakest of creatures always gets the easiest nourishment, so how else can it be that the islamic principle of helplessness before your Lord and submission is not exemplified? and why is it that the inner parts of the creatures are many many times more creatively made than the outer parts? and if nature were left to blind, material causes, it would be meaningless and almost make no sense and be cold to watch many things in nature. a mammal breastfeeding her pups, chewing food and then emitting it, mating and then getting pregnant simply for the joy of having children. who else teaches the animals and the humans these things these things? why do human beings get so obsessed with 8 minutes of pleasure that it consumes and destroys their lives? to the point that it no longer becomes about mating and reproducing? and if you think deeply, these are all rather odd physical activities. all of us crave a sort of immortality. every pleasure has a sort of longing for immortality in it. everything good is creative, and everything contrary to religion is destructive and can even be counted as non existence. this points to an afterlife. and attrivuting partners to creation is dangerous because on a religious level, if there was more than one god, they would compete for the throne. it is the nature of being. all creatures of an intellectual capacity. this is in the quran. that rules out polytheism. and if creation were to be their own creators (space time, carbon, etc.) something has to control the limits because everything is contingent meaning there are unlimited possibilities and there has to be one creator to judge the limits of expanding elements such as air water, fire, space time, etc. as it says in the quran that the universe will contract, and one has to say what exists and doesn't exist. furthermore, further expounding on the argument that humans destroy the ecosystem, iin the words of another scholar, no other creature has done destruction on this scale. between 1980 and 2045 we will have lost more plant and animal species than have been lost in the past 65 million years . clearly human beings don't belong. it is clear that we are the stewarts to this planet, and we need to take care of it. we are exiles from the garden of eden, and jannah is our true home. because belief is our fitrah, our innate disposition. our innate disposition is to do good, but our environment corrupts us and soon we acquire bad traits. there is no such thing as original evil in islam. tawheed is the idea that God is worthy of worship without partners,and that the duty of life is to serve God. through this we will find peace, whether in this world, this life and the next, or the next.
Reply

SintoDinto
07-23-2019, 05:42 AM
also, according to many people, the quran itself is a miracle. many people at the time were hypnotized by its recitation, and some even thought it was black magic. just as every language has its golden era, and english's golden era is the victorian era, arabic's golden era was the classical era, at a time when everyone around the world was obsessed with poetry. and this is still the case, we are still obsessed with convincing arguments (poetry, essentially) and artistic statements of sorts like movies and novels. every era had its fixation and its prophet who brought its proof. moses (as) brought proof with magic, Jesus (as) brought proof with medicine, and muhammad (PBUH) brought proof with poetry, as well as other miracles.
Reply

SintoDinto
07-23-2019, 05:56 AM
furthermore, life becomes much easier with belief. also, a philosopher can not become an expert on religion just as a religious scholar not trained in medicine can not operate open heart surgery. someone with no knowledge of fiqh, theology, etc. can not disprove something without proper context. atheism is not a belief, it is merely a negation of belief. also, to quote the risale i nur. "if everything is attributed to "natural causes" not to the All -Powerful One of Majesty, the One and Unique, this means that many of the physical elements and causes should be present and working in the body of every living being however, that so many different conflicting causes and elements come together of their own accord in perfect order and extremely precise measurements in the body of even the smallest of creatures, even a tiny fly, this is inconceivable.
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by manofIslam
Ah, Chalky: you're a hard man to convince!! But I admire your tenacity!!!

- - - Updated - - -





Well said, Bro!!
Actually , provide me with good solid evidence and you will find I’m more easily convinced.

I’ve had quite a few conversations with Christians, they use the exact same arguments as you ,along with personal testimony.
Argument from design
Cosmological argument
Moral argument etc
They make appeals to their holy book , appeals to faith then some try pascal wager.

As much as I cannot disprove the existence of a god , you cannot prove the existence of god.

The arguments provided aren’t good arguments, they haven’t convinced you to become Christian ... if they are not persuasive to you ( Muslims in general) they don’t persuade me.

If you assume there is something in an empty box, you can make all sorts of philosophical argument about it .

I do not assume there is something in the box , I’m honest enough to say I don’t know
Doubt is a foundation stone knowledge

Faith is a foundation stone of false beliefs
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by Physicist
I don't suggest you to just believe something, as a fellow scientific minded person, only inviting you to consider as a theory.

For me, from accepting that agnostictheism theory I described above until embracing Islam, it took 12 years of pondering and I didn't read much from Qur'an before.
And I never give up on scientific approach, so, neither am expecting you to do so.

Of course, if you are trying to evaluate religion as a science you are seing too many fallacies. Like if you would try to evaluate neural network as an imperative language program.
However, you can try to consider as a phenomenon, to see it's role in mankind's development.

Try to consider human brain in it's entirety, including subconscious data processing.
Our conscious thinking is only a top of an iceberg, relatively new and confined with language.
During day time mammals are simply reacting to environment, they are processing data at night, during REM phase of the sleeping.
It does not matter if you accepted Islam in a week or 40 years .... that has no bearing on its truth.

I agree the human brain is very complex, but still makes mistakes all the time, it’s filled with biases , false beliefs .

Science is the only method of thought that tried to tackle these inherit failures in our brains , science is designed to weed out and correct these failures.

So I agree with you science is very important , I would say science is the best method we have for investigating the universe and our place in it , it’s not perfect by any means, but it has proven itself time and again to be a reliable path to truth.

There is a lot to be learned and understood about the subconscious, even consciousness itself .... but to say , because we dream there must be a god ... is a leap of logic I wouldn’t make , and quite frankly I’m surprised you have[emoji846].
Reply

'Abdullah
07-23-2019, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Actually , provide me with good solid evidence and you will find I’m more easily convinced.

I’ve had quite a few conversations with Christians, they use the exact same arguments as you ,along with personal testimony.
Argument from design
Cosmological argument
Moral argument etc
They make appeals to their holy book , appeals to faith then some try pascal wager.

As much as I cannot disprove the existence of a god , you cannot prove the existence of god.

The arguments provided aren’t good arguments, they haven’t convinced you to become Christian ... if they are not persuasive to you ( Muslims in general) they don’t persuade me.

If you assume there is something in an empty box, you can make all sorts of philosophical argument about it .

I do not assume there is something in the box , I’m honest enough to say I don’t know
Doubt is a foundation stone knowledge

Faith is a foundation stone of false beliefs
Arguments used by theists (Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.) are mostly the same but they all focus on creation and logical reasoning to prove God. These arguments would make sense to few and would not make sense to many. Why? Because you are asking us to prove God but perhaps you never asked God to show you the path?

Anyways, good thing is that God does not expect a belief right away for no reason. This is blind Faith and it is not required.
But if you at least even have the DESIRE to believe, then that is like a seed. Plant that seed. Humble yourself and be willing to experiment even though you don't yet "know" that anything will happen.


Pull out Quran and read. Read the principles that are taught. Find the characteristics of God. Then ponder them. Be humble and open minded. Don't preface each thought with atheistic bias. Be honest with yourself and check your humility and openness. Begin to develop specific thoughts and questions. Try even writing them down to help gather them clearly. Then find a quiet spot to be alone, and kneel down and pray. Speak with God Don't say which God, here you are praying to an unknown God you are trying to find. Talk to Him about your thoughts and feelings. Then ask Him a specific question that is truly important to you. Then pause. Wait.
Pay attention to thoughts and feelings that come to your mind. I find that writing these down helps me clarify them. An answer may or may not come right away, but it is good to be ready.
Last of all, go about your day as you might normally do. Be patient. Understand that God will have the ability to answer, but also the capacity to say no to a request.
Reply

chalks75
07-23-2019, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Arguments used by theists (Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.) are mostly the same but they all focus on creation and logical reasoning to prove God. These arguments would make sense to few and would not make sense to many. Why? Because you are asking us to prove God but perhaps you never asked God to show you the path?

Anyways, good thing is that God does not expect a belief right away for no reason. This is blind Faith and it is not required.
But if you at least even have the DESIRE to believe, then that is like a seed. Plant that seed. Humble yourself and be willing to experiment even though you don't yet "know" that anything will happen.


Pull out Quran and read. Read the principles that are taught. Find the characteristics of God. Then ponder them. Be humble and open minded. Don't preface each thought with atheistic bias. Be honest with yourself and check your humility and openness. Begin to develop specific thoughts and questions. Try even writing them down to help gather them clearly. Then find a quiet spot to be alone, and kneel down and pray. Speak with God Don't say which God, here you are praying to an unknown God you are trying to find. Talk to Him about your thoughts and feelings. Then ask Him a specific question that is truly important to you. Then pause. Wait.
Pay attention to thoughts and feelings that come to your mind. I find that writing these down helps me clarify them. An answer may or may not come right away, but it is good to be ready.
Last of all, go about your day as you might normally do. Be patient. Understand that God will have the ability to answer, but also the capacity to say no to a request.
What are the characteristics of god?
Reply

'Abdullah
07-23-2019, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
What are the characteristics of god?
Attributes is probably the better word. There are several attributes of God which help us understand who He is.

For example:

God absolute One. He isunique, nothing is like Him (He is not a man as some people might wronglyimagine), He is The Creator and Lord of everything (every, human, animal,plant, organism, star, galaxy; in fact the entire universe), and everythingelse other than Him is His creation. Everything in the universe belongs to Him.
God is The First andThe Last. Cosmologists and scientists who stillwonder how this universe all started can be briefed that the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God beupon him, said,:

"First of all, there was nothing but God (then He created His throne). His throne wasover the water, and He …. created the heavens and the earth."
The Big Bang theory on how the universeoriginated fits the description of the creation of the universe in the Quran.GodAlmighty is The First and nothing was before Him and is The Last and nothingwill come after Him. God created space, matter, time, light and darkness; allis under His plan.
God is above all. God Almighty is physically above the universe raisedabove His Throne in a way that suits His Majesty. He is above all. Everythingis below Him. No man can imagine or comprehend how God looks like; it is beyondour ability to do so. No man has ever seen God and only in Paradise will thebelievers be granted the greatest bliss which is when God Almighty will revealHis Face and the believers will be able to see Him.
God does not sleep,rest or eat. Unlike humans the Almighty is praised fromany weakness or imperfection, such as the need to sleep, rest or eat. Instead,He grants the blessing of sleep and feeds mankind in the hope that they will bethankful and acknowledge their need for Him.
God knows, sees andhears everything. Consider how far anyhuman can see with his/her eyes at a given time; and now consider (Praise be toGod) that God Almighty sees all what 7 billion people can see; and He sees,hears and knows every large and tiny event that occurs in the universe.Furthermore, God, and only God knows, the future. Is there anyone like God? Isthere any one worthy of worship other than Him?
God is TheAll-Strong, The All-Powerful and is capable of everything. When Prophet Moses asked God that he wanted to see TheAlmighty, God told Moses to look at a mountain and if the mountain stayed inplace he would see Him; and when The Almighty revealed Himself to the mountainit got totally obliterated and Moses was knocked out unconscious.
Natural occurrences such as hurricanes,volcanoes, earthquakes, supernovas in outer space are all signs of how strong,powerful and magnificent God is. An intriguing fact is that the known universe(to man) is approximately 93 billion light years in diameter, i.e. is adistance of 550 billion trillion miles. Which means a spaceship, travelling at20,000 mph, would take approximately 3139 trillion years to travel thediameter of the "known" universe.
Now read what God says:

"They made not a just estimate of God such as is due toHim. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped byHis Hand and the heavens will be rolled upin His Right Hand. Glorified be He, and High be He above all that theyassociate as partners with Him." (Quran 39:67)
On the Day of Judgment the entire knownuniverse will be held in the Right Hand of God Almighty. Is there anyone like God? Is there any one worthy ofworship other than Him?
God is The MostMerciful. The Most Merciful is One of God’sNames. Some of His other Names are TheAll-Compassionate, The Creator, The Only One, The Light, The Magnificent, TheGenerous, The Glorious, The Most Sacred, The Sustainer, The Majestic One, TheSource of Peace, The Giver of Life, The Taker of Life, The Loving One, TheForgiving, The Ever-Acceptor of repentance, The Wise One, The Just, and TheAvenger. It is of extreme benefit when asking God for anything to call Him byHis Beautiful Names. When asking for wealth one can say "Oh God, TheGenerous" and when asking for forgiveness one can say "Oh God, TheForgiving, The Ever-Acceptor ofrepentance".
From the Lord’s Mercy is that:
"He restrains the sky from falling upon the earth,unless by His permission. Indeed God, to the people, is Kind andMerciful." (Quran 22:65)
TheProphet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, once saw a nursing mother desperatelylooking for her lost infant, and when she found her child the Prophet said: "Do you think that this lady can throw her son in the fire?" Wereplied, "No, if she has the power not to throw it (in the fire)."The Prophet then said, "God is more merciful to His slaves than this lady to her son."

God is The EternallyLiving One, The Self-Existing One. Theseare another two of God’s Beautiful Names. Everything that exists needs God forsurvival and God need’s no one. Every human will perish, while The Lord ofMajesty and Honor (also one of His Beautiful Names) is ever-living;immortal.
"Indeed, yourLord is God, Who… covers the night with the day, [another night] chasing itrapidly; and [He created] the sun, the moon, and the stars, subjected by Hiscommand. Unquestionably, His is the creation and the command; blessed is God,Lord of the worlds." (Quran7:54)
Everything that happens in this world is not by itself or bycoincidence, but it is The Almighty who is controlling everything. Dayand night, summer and winter, rainfall and drought, every cell function in thebody (of which there are trillions of), the germination of seeds into plants,cell multiplications that form an embryo then a child, and people dying; alloccur by the command of God.

These are just a few attributes I tried to describe briefly. Quran has described 99 attributes of Allah so that we can understand who Allah is. See link below for the attributes of Allah mentioned in Quran:

https://www.whyislam.org/allah/god/n...utes-of-allah/
Reply

Zafran
07-23-2019, 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
As much as I cannot disprove the existence of a god , you cannot prove the existence of god.
we disagree - the Universe being contingent requires a necessary a being that has will and power to bring it from non existence to existence.

Then this necessary being (thanks to his will) has been sending prophets from Adam, to Abhrham to Moses to Jesus to Muhmmad pbuh etc. These prophets have transformed human history - A very good case can be made for the prophet Muhmmad pbuh who changed humans from worshiping Idols to worshiping the necessary being - from being tribal to a transcendental morality - A similar case can be made of other prophets.


Originally Posted by chalks75
I do not assume there is something in the box , I’m honest enough to say I don’t know
Doubt is a foundation stone knowledge
Doubt is not the foundation of Knowledge on the contrary its a lost position. Im sure you would have hard time getting out the matrix or the dream that you may be in.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
What are the characteristics of god?
A contingent thing (what we "know" of the universe) requires something necessary to bring it into existence - the necessary being must have had power to bring into existence - will to choose it from non existence to existence - Knowledge because the contingent universe is complex and would need to know the difference from non existence to existence - oneness so the power and will can be actualized - this Necessary being with power, Knowledge and will has been sending prophets throughout time and those prophets teach us that God (Necessary being) is merciful, forgiving, Kind ect.
Reply

chalks75
07-24-2019, 06:14 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
we disagree - the Universe being contingent requires a necessary a being that has will and power to bring it from non existence to existence.

Then this necessary being (thanks to his will) has been sending prophets from Adam, to Abhrham to Moses to Jesus to Muhmmad pbuh etc. These prophets have transformed human history - A very good case can be made for the prophet Muhmmad pbuh who changed humans from worshiping Idols to worshiping the necessary being - from being tribal to a transcendental morality - A similar case can be made of other prophets.




Doubt is not the foundation of Knowledge on the contrary its a lost position. Im sure you would have hard time getting out the matrix or the dream that you may be in.

- - - Updated - - -



A contingent thing (what we "know" of the universe) requires something necessary to bring it into existence - the necessary being must have had power to bring into existence - will to choose it from non existence to existence - Knowledge because the contingent universe is complex and would need to know the difference from non existence to existence - oneness so the power and will can be actualized - this Necessary being with power, Knowledge and will has been sending prophets throughout time and those prophets teach us that God (Necessary being) is merciful, forgiving, Kind ect.
Can you prove the universe is contingent ?
“ this necessary being “
Prove it’s a “ being”
If you assume it’s a being, then you can begin to make logical deductions about this being .... but why would you make that assumption.

Even if you could do those things , at best these are arguments for a deist god , it’s quite a leap from that to a deist god.

The Beatles changed the world, so did the NASA space program, so did Alexander Fleming.

Doubt is not a foundation stone of knowledge ?? Really
If you already believe you know the answer , that your right , you can’t be wrong ... what would motivate you to investigate anything to gain knowledge.

To know how little you know , is the biggest motivator ,I know to learn.
Reply

chalks75
07-24-2019, 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Attributes is probably the better word. There are several attributes of God which help us understand who He is.

For example:

God absolute One. He isunique, nothing is like Him (He is not a man as some people might wronglyimagine), He is The Creator and Lord of everything (every, human, animal,plant, organism, star, galaxy; in fact the entire universe), and everythingelse other than Him is His creation. Everything in the universe belongs to Him.
God is The First andThe Last. Cosmologists and scientists who stillwonder how this universe all started can be briefed that the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God beupon him, said,:


The Big Bang theory on how the universeoriginated fits the description of the creation of the universe in the Quran.GodAlmighty is The First and nothing was before Him and is The Last and nothingwill come after Him. God created space, matter, time, light and darkness; allis under His plan.
God is above all. God Almighty is physically above the universe raisedabove His Throne in a way that suits His Majesty. He is above all. Everythingis below Him. No man can imagine or comprehend how God looks like; it is beyondour ability to do so. No man has ever seen God and only in Paradise will thebelievers be granted the greatest bliss which is when God Almighty will revealHis Face and the believers will be able to see Him.
God does not sleep,rest or eat. Unlike humans the Almighty is praised fromany weakness or imperfection, such as the need to sleep, rest or eat. Instead,He grants the blessing of sleep and feeds mankind in the hope that they will bethankful and acknowledge their need for Him.
God knows, sees andhears everything. Consider how far anyhuman can see with his/her eyes at a given time; and now consider (Praise be toGod) that God Almighty sees all what 7 billion people can see; and He sees,hears and knows every large and tiny event that occurs in the universe.Furthermore, God, and only God knows, the future. Is there anyone like God? Isthere any one worthy of worship other than Him?
God is TheAll-Strong, The All-Powerful and is capable of everything. When Prophet Moses asked God that he wanted to see TheAlmighty, God told Moses to look at a mountain and if the mountain stayed inplace he would see Him; and when The Almighty revealed Himself to the mountainit got totally obliterated and Moses was knocked out unconscious.
Natural occurrences such as hurricanes,volcanoes, earthquakes, supernovas in outer space are all signs of how strong,powerful and magnificent God is. An intriguing fact is that the known universe(to man) is approximately 93 billion light years in diameter, i.e. is adistance of 550 billion trillion miles. Which means a spaceship, travelling at20,000 mph, would take approximately 3139 trillion years to travel thediameter of the "known" universe.
Now read what God says:


On the Day of Judgment the entire knownuniverse will be held in the Right Hand of God Almighty. Is there anyone like God? Is there any one worthy ofworship other than Him?
God is The MostMerciful. The Most Merciful is One of God’sNames. Some of His other Names are TheAll-Compassionate, The Creator, The Only One, The Light, The Magnificent, TheGenerous, The Glorious, The Most Sacred, The Sustainer, The Majestic One, TheSource of Peace, The Giver of Life, The Taker of Life, The Loving One, TheForgiving, The Ever-Acceptor of repentance, The Wise One, The Just, and TheAvenger. It is of extreme benefit when asking God for anything to call Him byHis Beautiful Names. When asking for wealth one can say "Oh God, TheGenerous" and when asking for forgiveness one can say "Oh God, TheForgiving, The Ever-Acceptor ofrepentance".
From the Lord’s Mercy is that:


TheProphet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, once saw a nursing mother desperatelylooking for her lost infant, and when she found her child the Prophet said: "Do you think that this lady can throw her son in the fire?" Wereplied, "No, if she has the power not to throw it (in the fire)."The Prophet then said, "God is more merciful to His slaves than this lady to her son."

God is The EternallyLiving One, The Self-Existing One. Theseare another two of God’s Beautiful Names. Everything that exists needs God forsurvival and God need’s no one. Every human will perish, while The Lord ofMajesty and Honor (also one of His Beautiful Names) is ever-living;immortal.


Everything that happens in this world is not by itself or bycoincidence, but it is The Almighty who is controlling everything. Dayand night, summer and winter, rainfall and drought, every cell function in thebody (of which there are trillions of), the germination of seeds into plants,cell multiplications that form an embryo then a child, and people dying; alloccur by the command of God.

These are just a few attributes I tried to describe briefly. Quran has described 99 attributes of Allah so that we can understand who Allah is. See link below for the attributes of Allah mentioned in Quran:

https://www.whyislam.org/allah/god/n...utes-of-allah/
The Big Bang does not describe the beginning of the universe , it describes the universe changing from one state to another.

How would god know that he , knows, sees, and hears everything ?
That’s illogical
If something happened that god was unaware of ... would he know ?


It seems to me , and this is a major problem ,
Is that you( other people) define what a god is ,
So a god is nothing more that what you define a god to be.

I believe people invent gods in a primitive attempt to explain the universe and our place in it , gods are what we use when we don’t have a proper explanation.

I have no doubt that people living 4000 years ago knew less than we know now.
With that in mind , faced with the questions

Where did the universe come from ( the universe was not nearly as big for them as it is for us )
Where did life come from ?

Faced with these questions , and without the tools or technology to answer them , they invented answers, they invented gods , this is why different cultures all invented different gods.

The concept of these gods would change and evolve over time as the attributes they have were discussed , and debated.

Gods are a concept, used to fill in gaps in our knowledge.
IMHO
Reply

'Abdullah
07-24-2019, 06:44 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
The Big Bang does not describe the beginning of the universe , it describes the universe changing from one state to another.

How would god know that he , knows, sees, and hears everything ?
That’s illogical
If something happened that god was unaware of ... would he know ?


It seems to me , and this is a major problem ,
Is that you( other people) define what a god is ,
So a god is nothing more that what you define a god to be.

I believe people invent gods in a primitive attempt to explain the universe and our place in it , gods are what we use when we don’t have a proper explanation.

I have no doubt that people living 4000 years ago knew less than we know now.
With that in mind , faced with the questions

Where did the universe come from ( the universe was not nearly as big for them as it is for us )
Where did life come from ?

Faced with these questions , and without the tools or technology to answer them , they invented answers, they invented gods , this is why different cultures all invented different gods.

The concept of these gods would change and evolve over time as the attributes they have were discussed , and debated.

Gods are a concept, used to fill in gaps in our knowledge.
IMHO
Is not it funny that many facts you are talking about we know now are mentioned in Quran with accuracy. Remember again Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. How do you justify that someone living is a desert of Arabia 1490 years ago will know these facts. Read Quran and look into the mathematical, scientific, numerical and linguistic miracles in Quran. Denying something without even testing only shows you are not sincerely looking for the answers to your questions.
Reply

chalks75
07-24-2019, 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Is not it funny that many facts you are talking about we know now are mentioned in Quran with accuracy. Remember again Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. How do you justify that someone living is a desert of Arabia 1490 years ago will know these facts. Read Quran and look into the mathematical, scientific, numerical and linguistic miracles in Quran. Denying something without even testing only shows you are not sincerely looking for the answers to your questions.
I’m not sure what a mathematical or linguistic miracle is ... a scientific miracle ??
If it’s scientific can it be a miracle.

Can you give me a scientific fact from the Quran?

The Old Testament was written 4000 years ago and people claim that there are scientific claims in that.

I just want to point out , even if there is a fact in the Quran , that does not mean the entire book is true.
It does not tell you how or even if they knew it was a fact.
Reply

chalks75
07-24-2019, 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I’m not sure what a mathematical or linguistic miracle is ... a scientific miracle ??
If it’s scientific can it be a miracle.

Can you give me a scientific fact from the Quran?

The Old Testament was written 4000 years ago and people claim that there are scientific claims in that.

I just want to point out , even if there is a fact in the Quran , that does not mean the entire book is true.
It does not tell you how or even if they knew it was a fact.
I have already pointed out that the Quran is not in agreement with science regarding the Big Bang , the Big Bang does not say anywhere that there was “ nothing”

You assert natural disasters are a sign of god .... can you prove that they are ?

Does the Quran claim the moon was split in two ,?

Is this a physical splitting of the moon ?
If so , what is the evidence that supports a this claim ... I assume you believe it is true .

( please do not point to a passage in a book that claims the moon was split in two )
A claim cannot be evidence of itself.
Reply

MazharShafiq
07-24-2019, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
Since you are an atheist, I think first thing we probably need to establish if the God really exists?

Let me start with a simple example.

Imagine attending an event where everything, from the carpets, to the drapery, to the furniture, dish-ware, cutlery, floral arrangements, to the lighting, color coordination and menu are no less than picture-perfect!

Besides enjoying the perfect environs, what else are you sure the guests would do?

They will undoubtedly inquire about who or which company arranged and managed the event so impeccably. The more high-class and sophisticated the cuisine, decor and ambiance, the greater the received praise for the organizers and event managers who brought it all together.

The same can be said for any perfectly made, exotic culinary dish or dessert; a classy and visually appealing dress or outfit, or any other product of human ingenuity and creativity: the more valuable and finished the end-product, the greater the praise it will get, and the higher esteem, demand, and value will its ‘creator’ garner and enjoy.

It is no wonder then that the “designers” who make it big in their respective industries regardless of what they design or create - be it clothing, home interiors, civic infrastructure, furniture, jewelry, food, hairstyles, technological gadgetry, or scientific inventions - are recognized and respected through and because of their created products. The more fault-free, visually appealing, smoothly functional and beneficial for general use the latter are, the more value, money, respect, demand and awe will its designer be able to demand and receive.

Now imagine if when the guests at the beautifully decorated event inquire which company or individual created the idea behind it and then succeeded in practically executing it so perfectly, they are told that no one did anything; rather, everything just automatically fell into place on its own, without anyone calling the shots.

Would you expect anyone with a sane mind to believe this story?

Any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him.
Analogically, God has created whatever is in the heavens and the earth, and He has done an awe-inspiring perfect job of creation that takes one’s breath away, even if one ponders upon only the most microscopic, minuscule aspect of one of His creations, such as the structure of a single human cell, or the intricate way the wing of a mosquito is made.

The Creator has spread all of the signs of His powers around us, which point clearly to His omnipotence and omnipresence, beholding which, any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him, without even seeing Him.

Let's agree on this first and then we can discuss why Muslims believe that Allah is the true Creator and the only true Divine guidance is Quran. Sounds reasonable?
yes absolutely right I agreed with you.
Reply

chalks75
07-24-2019, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by MazharShafiq
yes absolutely right I agreed with you.

What do all designers have in common , from watches to airplanes , to culinary delights .... they all have parents.

Who is your designer parents?
Reply

Junon
07-24-2019, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Hi , my name is chalky
I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.
Oh dear, this is what this forum REALLY needs, another Internet atheist trying to 'deconvert' us, it may be exciting for other members but for me, to quote Jeremy Irons "Well forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back you know"

Word of advice, we know the game your playing, keep it civilised or the

ca1d6a1c09062c480ea4ae7365060566 1 -

awaits you.
Reply

Zafran
07-24-2019, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Can you prove the universe is contingent ?
“ this necessary being “
Prove it’s a “ being”
If you assume it’s a being, then you can begin to make logical deductions about this being .... but why would you make that assumption.
All the evidence proves that the universe is contingent unless you have evidence its Necessary? - A universe requires will, Knowledge and power to come from non existence to existence only a necessary being can have such attributes unless you have evidence for the contrary?
Reply

chalks75
07-24-2019, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Junon
Oh dear, this is what this forum REALLY needs, another Internet atheist trying to 'deconvert' us, it may be exciting for other members but for me, to quote Jeremy Irons "Well forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back you know"

Word of advice, we know the game your playing, keep it civilised or the

ca1d6a1c09062c480ea4ae7365060566 1 -

awaits you.
Nobody is asking you to talk to me, post to me, reply to me, or read what I write.
Feel free to ignore everything I say [emoji3]
Reply

Zafran
07-24-2019, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Even if you could do those things , at best these are arguments for a deist god , it’s quite a leap from that to a deist god.
No they are not because power, Knowledge and will are required for the Contingent Universe to come into existence - what do you mean by "deist God" what proofs do you speak of here?


Originally Posted by chalks75
The Beatles changed the world, so did the NASA space program, so did Alexander Fleming.
didn't know they claimed to be prophets from God..

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Originally Posted by chalks75
Doubt is not a foundation stone of knowledge ?? Really
If you already believe you know the answer , that your right , you can’t be wrong ... what would motivate you to investigate anything to gain knowledge.

To know how little you know , is the biggest motivator ,I know to learn.
Yes doubt is is not good for you - how do you know your not living in a dream or matrix?

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Originally Posted by chalks75
The Big Bang does not describe the beginning of the universe , it describes the universe changing from one state to another.
can you give any evidence for this?

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Originally Posted by chalks75
I believe people invent gods in a primitive attempt to explain the universe and our place in it , gods are what we use when we don’t have a proper explanation.
what is a proper explanation? what do you mean by invent?

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Originally Posted by Junon
Oh dear, this is what this forum REALLY needs, another Internet atheist trying to 'deconvert' us, it may be exciting for other members but for me, to quote Jeremy Irons "Well forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back you know"

Word of advice, we know the game your playing, keep it civilised or the
Its just a bit of fun we all know how this ends lol.

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Originally Posted by chalks75
Nobody is asking you to talk to me, post to me, reply to me, or read what I write.
Feel free to ignore everything I say
Your the millionth atheist with the same game, but your right lets entertain the idea that your actually a true seeker.
Reply

Iceee
07-25-2019, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Hi , my name is chalky
I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.

Originally Posted by chalks75
Nobody is asking you to talk to me, post to me, reply to me, or read what I write.
Feel free to ignore everything I say
Salaam/Peace Be Upon You Brother chalks75.

In general, Religion is very appealing. It gives us answers to many questions; as you've seen from the many sources in this thread.

Islam / religion allows us to maintain peace of mind; gives us something to put our faith in and is a source of comfort for many of us. The Qur’aan is the word of Allaah which came from Him in the form of speech, without any need for us to know how. He sent it down to His Messenger by Revelation, the believers believe that it is true and they are certain that it is indeed the word of Allaah and that it is not created like the words of human beings.
There's no benefit to being an atheist. We think that you will agree with us that all humans are free to believe in and to love or hate any idea or belief. This is one of the freedoms that are guaranteed by modern constitutions. But no human being has the right to mistreat those who differ from him in belief by wronging them, annoying them or betraying them, or trying to cause them harm, just because of the differences in belief between them.

We do not hate you personally nor do we want to ignore you, just remember that YOU are posting on this forum and we put in our input. How could we hate you when we do not know you and have never met you; we could never despise you for your colour, your race or your family. All of that is forbidden to us, to love or hate people because of their colour, lineage or forebears. Rather our hatred and enmity is directed towards the disbelief and atheism that you carry in your heart and will soon destroy you and lead you to the eternal punishment of Allah, and that will bring upon you misery in this world and in the hereafter. We feel very sorry for you because of this misery and we are striving to save you from it; we wish that we could do that!

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah has taken away your pride of Jaahiliyyah (ignorance) and your boasting about your forefathers. One is only a righteous believer or a doomed evildoer. You are the sons of Adam and Adam was created from dust. Men should stop boasting about their forefathers, who are no more than the coal of Hell, or they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose.”
A saheeh (sound) hadeeth, narrated by Abu Dawood (5116) et al.
Reply

chalks75
07-25-2019, 08:13 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
No they are not because power, Knowledge and will are required for the Contingent Universe to come into existence - what do you mean by "deist God" what proofs do you speak of here?




didn't know they claimed to be prophets from God..

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Yes doubt is is not good for you - how do you know your not living in a dream or matrix?

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can you give any evidence for this?

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what is a proper explanation? what do you mean by invent?

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Its just a bit of fun we all know how this ends lol.

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Your the millionth atheist with the same game, but your right lets entertain the idea that your actually a true seeker.
Why don’t you look up what a deist god is , quite frankly I’m surprised you don’t know.
Just in case you don’t look it up , a deist god is a god that created the universe set everything in motion , then takes no more part in proceedings , and quite a few of the arguments offered by theists argue only for s deist god not a theist god.

They did not claim to be prophets from god , but something can change the world without having divine nature, so Islam changing the world ( or a small fraction of it) is not evidence in itself the island is either true or divine , Hinduism has changed the world ( or a small part of it)

The Big Bang theory states that “ the universe was a small dense mass ( singularity) then that singularity began to expand ( expanding universe)
At no place in the Big Bang theory does it say there was no universe, or that there was nothing.

Can there even be nothing ?
To be , is to be in a state of existence ... can nothing be in a state of existence .

Can I prove I’m not in the matrix , no .
Nor can you , so how could it be proved there was a god , since it’s possible we are in a matrix( I do not believe this , but I cannot prove it is not true )

What do I mean by invent.
What I mean by invent is , when faced with questions like “ how the universe came to be”
They make logical inferences based on the assumption that there is something to make logical inferences about

Whatever created the universe must have been incredibly powerful.

This assumes the universe is a creation , and it takes a lot of power to create it ( according to the latest science the total energy of the universe is zero)

If you assume there is something in an empty box , you can make logical deductions about it .... even through there is nothing there .
Reply

chalks75
07-25-2019, 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by Iceee
Salaam/Peace Be Upon You Brother chalks75.

In general, Religion is very appealing. It gives us answers to many questions; as you've seen from the many sources in this thread.

Islam / religion allows us to maintain peace of mind; gives us something to put our faith in and is a source of comfort for many of us. The Qur’aan is the word of Allaah which came from Him in the form of speech, without any need for us to know how. He sent it down to His Messenger by Revelation, the believers believe that it is true and they are certain that it is indeed the word of Allaah and that it is not created like the words of human beings.
There's no benefit to being an atheist. We think that you will agree with us that all humans are free to believe in and to love or hate any idea or belief. This is one of the freedoms that are guaranteed by modern constitutions. But no human being has the right to mistreat those who differ from him in belief by wronging them, annoying them or betraying them, or trying to cause them harm, just because of the differences in belief between them.

We do not hate you personally nor do we want to ignore you, just remember that YOU are posting on this forum and we put in our input. How could we hate you when we do not know you and have never met you; we could never despise you for your colour, your race or your family. All of that is forbidden to us, to love or hate people because of their colour, lineage or forebears. Rather our hatred and enmity is directed towards the disbelief and atheism that you carry in your heart and will soon destroy you and lead you to the eternal punishment of Allah, and that will bring upon you misery in this world and in the hereafter. We feel very sorry for you because of this misery and we are striving to save you from it; we wish that we could do that!

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah has taken away your pride of Jaahiliyyah (ignorance) and your boasting about your forefathers. One is only a righteous believer or a doomed evildoer. You are the sons of Adam and Adam was created from dust. Men should stop boasting about their forefathers, who are no more than the coal of Hell, or they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose.”
A saheeh (sound) hadeeth, narrated by Abu Dawood (5116) et al.
I’m not convinced your right , you may be but I’m not convinced.
I think gods are a concept that we invented to try and help us explain our place in the universe, they are a concept they do not exist in reality.

Religions historically have always tried to stop people from questioning its “truth” , so I’m not surprised your religion teaches you to hate doubters , doubters are bad for business.

I fully understand I am posting on your forum , that I am a guest here , so I will endeavour to conduct myself with manners and respect , which I try to do in my every day life.

If you are not comfortable having your beliefs questioned, just say so , there are lots of forums , lots of people who are willing to have honest conversations.


The very first post I posted , I said I understood the social benefits of religions , Islam included , that does not concern me , what concerns me is wether or not it’s true , or wether or not you can even know it’s true.

Beliefs are important , beliefs inspire actions
How we arrive at those beliefs are as equally important , it’s important to me that the things I believe are true , are in fact true.
I do not want to believe something because , it’s socially beneficial , my parents and peers believe it , it’s a cultural belief , or that I just haven’t questioned it, or that I’ve been convinced it’s true but for bad reasons.

So, if you would rather I find another forum to post on , just say no , harm done [emoji846]
Reply

chalks75
07-25-2019, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
All the evidence proves that the universe is contingent unless you have evidence its Necessary? - A universe requires will, Knowledge and power to come from non existence to existence only a necessary being can have such attributes unless you have evidence for the contrary?
There is absolute no evidence whatsoever ever about the origin of the universe or how it came to be , you can assert the universe required will, knowledge, etc ... but you can’t prove it.

Non existence to existence ?
When was it proved that there was a time when there was nothing in existence.

You are confusing religious beliefs with science.
Reply

Zafran
07-26-2019, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Why don’t you look up what a deist god is , quite frankly I’m surprised you don’t know.
Just in case you don’t look it up , a deist god is a god that created the universe set everything in motion , then takes no more part in proceedings , and quite a few of the arguments offered by theists argue only for s deist god not a theist god.
Im surprised you don't know Kalam which is not an argument for deism its actually an argument against it. There is a robust tradition in Islam like in other religions against this - you should check it out.


Originally Posted by chalks75
They did not claim to be prophets from god , but something can change the world without having divine nature, so Islam changing the world ( or a small fraction of it) is not evidence in itself the island is either true or divine , Hinduism has changed the world ( or a small part of it)
Islam is the fasting growing religion on the planet which has shaped countless civilizations from the Arabs to the Africans, to the people of sub continent right around the world - its shaped ethical, aesthetic,social, political culture. Its transformation based on the claim that there is a God and the prophet Muhammad pbuh was a true prophet in a line of many prophets. Hinduism may have had true prophets like Christianity and Judaism.

Originally Posted by chalks75
The Big Bang theory states that “ the universe was a small dense mass ( singularity) then that singularity began to expand ( expanding universe)
At no place in the Big Bang theory does it say there was no universe, or that there was nothing.
so you have no proof for your previous claim - ok......

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Originally Posted by chalks75
Can there even be nothing ?
To be , is to be in a state of existence ... can nothing be in a state of existence .
Indeed before the Contingent Universe there was a Necessary being that had to will the universe into existence when it didn't exist - a bit like you being born - you didn't exist and then you did. Unless you think the Universe is necessary.

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Originally Posted by chalks75
Can I prove I’m not in the matrix , no .
Nor can you , so how could it be proved there was a god , since it’s possible we are in a matrix( I do not believe this , but I cannot prove it is not true )
Here is a better explanation then the matrix and dream simulation - Islam. Much more real and trans formative.

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Originally Posted by chalks75
What do I mean by invent.
What I mean by invent is , when faced with questions like “ how the universe came to be”
They make logical inferences based on the assumption that there is something to make logical inferences about
why make logical inferences? we make them because we believe the Universe is made by a wise God, so logic is one way we try to understand God's creation and some attributes one can deduce form creation and others from Revelation.
You keep saying that people "invent" but we and everyone else dont "invent anything- we didn't invent the contingent Universe - we didn't invent our bodies, Nature, and pretty much most things we can conceive - instead we are finding out why we are here - a lot of people are convinced about God and the prophets including the prophet Muhammad for various reasons of course.

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Originally Posted by chalks75
Whatever created the universe must have been incredibly powerful.
Good we are making progress - Not only that but there could have only been one power source which actualized the existence of the universe.

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Originally Posted by chalks75
This assumes the universe is a creation , and it takes a lot of power to create it ( according to the latest science the total energy of the universe is zero)
No it assumes the Universe is contingent (because of the evidence so far) - if its contingent then creation is the only logical explanation for it. Of course unless you want to go against the evidence and argue its necessary.

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Originally Posted by chalks75
If you assume there is something in an empty box , you can make logical deductions about it .... even through there is nothing there .
The empty Box is contingent - regardless of whats inside it. Follow the logic and don't go all Wittgenstein just yet we haven't arrived there yet.

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Originally Posted by chalks75
There is absolute no evidence whatsoever ever about the origin of the universe or how it came to be , you can assert the universe required will, knowledge, etc ... but you can’t prove it.
The evidence proves the Universe is contingent unless you have evidence to the contrary?

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Originally Posted by chalks75
Non existence to existence ?
When was it proved that there was a time when there was nothing in existence.
Like yourself for example.

Originally Posted by chalks75
You are confusing religious beliefs with science.
we are doing Logic not science - science relies on Logic you do know that right? Its one of the assumptions it makes about the world like mechanistic causality, Uniformity of nature etc.

Here a pro tip - make your strongest argument for atheism then this conversation will be fruitful otherwise you'll just being going in circles which it seems we are going as you dont follow what is stated before - like Contingency of the Universe which is the crux of my rational argument. You haven't provided a single one yet. Expect you claimed some vague changes before the Big bang where there is no evidence for rationally, logically or historically.
Reply

Saira Khan
07-26-2019, 12:31 AM
Talking and reasoning with an atheist is forbidden in Islam.

It was narrated from ‘Aishah that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Shaytan comes to one of you and says, ‘Who created you?’ And he says ‘Allah.’ Then the Shaytan says, ‘Who created Allah?’ If that happens to any one of you, let him say, Amantu Billahi wa Rusulihi (I believe in Allah and His messengers). Then that will go away from him.”(Narrated by Ahmad, 25671; classed as hasan (sound) by al-Albani in al-Saheehah, 116).

@chalks75 in your previous post, your answers to my very simple questions were ridiculous, meaning that your so called rational thoughts are very irrational, which are misleading you. You are a victim of falsity due to your irrational limited brain. Don't mind it but at least try to be a free person.
Stay blessed.
Reply

chalks75
07-26-2019, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Im surprised you don't know Kalam which is not an argument for deism its actually an argument against it. There is a robust tradition in Islam like in other religions against this - you should check it out.




Islam is the fasting growing religion on the planet which has shaped countless civilizations from the Arabs to the Africans, to the people of sub continent right around the world - its shaped ethical, aesthetic,social, political culture. Its transformation based on the claim that there is a God and the prophet Muhammad pbuh was a true prophet in a line of many prophets. Hinduism may have had true prophets like Christianity and Judaism.



so you have no proof for your previous claim - ok......

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Indeed before the Contingent Universe there was a Necessary being that had to will the universe into existence when it didn't exist - a bit like you being born - you didn't exist and then you did. Unless you think the Universe is necessary.

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Here is a better explanation then the matrix and dream simulation - Islam. Much more real and trans formative.

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why make logical inferences? we make them because we believe the Universe is made by a wise God, so logic is one way we try to understand God's creation and some attributes one can deduce form creation and others from Revelation.
You keep saying that people "invent" but we and everyone else dont "invent anything- we didn't invent the contingent Universe - we didn't invent our bodies, Nature, and pretty much most things we can conceive - instead we are finding out why we are here - a lot of people are convinced about God and the prophets including the prophet Muhammad for various reasons of course.

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Good we are making progress - Not only that but there could have only been one power source which actualized the existence of the universe.

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No it assumes the Universe is contingent (because of the evidence so far) - if its contingent then creation is the only logical explanation for it. Of course unless you want to go against the evidence and argue its necessary.

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The empty Box is contingent - regardless of whats inside it. Follow the logic and don't go all Wittgenstein just yet we haven't arrived there yet.

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The evidence proves the Universe is contingent unless you have evidence to the contrary?

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Like yourself for example.



we are doing Logic not science - science relies on Logic you do know that right? Its one of the assumptions it makes about the world like mechanistic causality, Uniformity of nature etc.

Here a pro tip - make your strongest argument for atheism then this conversation will be fruitful otherwise you'll just being going in circles which it seems we are going as you dont follow what is stated before - like Contingency of the Universe which is the crux of my rational argument. You haven't provided a single one yet. Expect you claimed some vague changes before the Big bang where there is no evidence for rationally, logically or historically.
I’m not convinced gods or a god is real , I’ve seen no evidence nor heard any argument that would compel me to believe the claim
“ some god exists” therefore I am not convinced some god (gods) exists ...
Therefore the only rational position I can take is that of A-theism.
That is why I am an atheist.
I may be wrong , but there you have it.

A-theism , is a perfectly rational and logical position to hold.
Reply

chalks75
07-26-2019, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Im surprised you don't know Kalam which is not an argument for deism its actually an argument against it. There is a robust tradition in Islam like in other religions against this - you should check it out.




Islam is the fasting growing religion on the planet which has shaped countless civilizations from the Arabs to the Africans, to the people of sub continent right around the world - its shaped ethical, aesthetic,social, political culture. Its transformation based on the claim that there is a God and the prophet Muhammad pbuh was a true prophet in a line of many prophets. Hinduism may have had true prophets like Christianity and Judaism.



so you have no proof for your previous claim - ok......

- - - Updated - - -



Indeed before the Contingent Universe there was a Necessary being that had to will the universe into existence when it didn't exist - a bit like you being born - you didn't exist and then you did. Unless you think the Universe is necessary.

- - - Updated - - -



Here is a better explanation then the matrix and dream simulation - Islam. Much more real and trans formative.

- - - Updated - - -



why make logical inferences? we make them because we believe the Universe is made by a wise God, so logic is one way we try to understand God's creation and some attributes one can deduce form creation and others from Revelation.
You keep saying that people "invent" but we and everyone else dont "invent anything- we didn't invent the contingent Universe - we didn't invent our bodies, Nature, and pretty much most things we can conceive - instead we are finding out why we are here - a lot of people are convinced about God and the prophets including the prophet Muhammad for various reasons of course.

- - - Updated - - -



Good we are making progress - Not only that but there could have only been one power source which actualized the existence of the universe.

- - - Updated - - -



No it assumes the Universe is contingent (because of the evidence so far) - if its contingent then creation is the only logical explanation for it. Of course unless you want to go against the evidence and argue its necessary.

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The empty Box is contingent - regardless of whats inside it. Follow the logic and don't go all Wittgenstein just yet we haven't arrived there yet.

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The evidence proves the Universe is contingent unless you have evidence to the contrary?

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Like yourself for example.



we are doing Logic not science - science relies on Logic you do know that right? Its one of the assumptions it makes about the world like mechanistic causality, Uniformity of nature etc.

Here a pro tip - make your strongest argument for atheism then this conversation will be fruitful otherwise you'll just being going in circles which it seems we are going as you dont follow what is stated before - like Contingency of the Universe which is the crux of my rational argument. You haven't provided a single one yet. Expect you claimed some vague changes before the Big bang where there is no evidence for rationally, logically or historically.
The Kalam cosmological argument.
Originated in Islam
“ everything that begins to exist has a cause
The universe began to exist
The universe has a cause “
That is the kalam cosmological argument

It’s conclusion “ the universe has a cause “

It makes not argument for what that cause is, wether it’s a conscious being , wether it has will etc ... it just stays there is a cause.
So at best it’s an argument for a deist god , and not a very good one.
For you to argue that the cause has a will or a mind , you must leave the kalam and provide a different argument.

How fast a religion grows or how many people believe it ... has zero bearing on its truth.
At one time Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the planet , it shaped countries , changed entire continents
Do this make Christianity true ... is Jesus a god?

The Big Bang theory states the universe was a singularity that expanded, it does not state a universe came from nothing .

Do you want evidence that this is what the Big Bang theory states ?
Or
Are you asking for evidence that this is what happened ?

You claim there was a time the universe did not exist ... what evidence have you that this is true ,
No one knows when or if the universe began (I understand your religious beliefs tell you it did )

You make logical inferences because YOU BELIVE there is a god
Just like the empty box , you can come to logical conclusions that are wrong, if you believe there is something in the box.
Reply

chalks75
07-26-2019, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
The Kalam cosmological argument.
Originated in Islam
“ everything that begins to exist has a cause
The universe began to exist
The universe has a cause “
That is the kalam cosmological argument

It’s conclusion “ the universe has a cause “

It makes not argument for what that cause is, wether it’s a conscious being , wether it has will etc ... it just stays there is a cause.
So at best it’s an argument for a deist god , and not a very good one.
For you to argue that the cause has a will or a mind , you must leave the kalam and provide a different argument.

How fast a religion grows or how many people believe it ... has zero bearing on its truth.
At one time Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the planet , it shaped countries , changed entire continents
Do this make Christianity true ... is Jesus a god?

The Big Bang theory states the universe was a singularity that expanded, it does not state a universe came from nothing .

Do you want evidence that this is what the Big Bang theory states ?
Or
Are you asking for evidence that this is what happened ?
You claim there was a time the universe did not exist ... what evidence have you that this is true ,
No one knows when or if the universe began (I understand your religious beliefs tell you it did )
Reply

Studentofdeed
07-26-2019, 12:55 PM
Hello Chalks75...I'm going to explain why I am a muslim. Maybe it may give insight and better understanding?

The quran hasnt been changed...ever. You acknowledge this right? Yet notice many things that are discovered in the quran that are true...such as two seas of salt water and fresh water not mixing...such as the development of the embryo...prediction of the Bzystantie empire defeating the fire worshiping persians. All life comes from water...everything in space has an orbit...sun is like a lamp glowing and burning energy while the The Arabic word for moon is 'qamar' and the light described there is 'muneer' which is borrowed light, or 'noor' which is a reflection of light." There is many more scientific facts...of course Christian's and other religions will claim their book is true but they know it has been changed. When I was debating with a christian...he asked me who wrote the quran...I told him it came from god...no man wrote it. The bible is man made because it was been translated and combined from torah (old testament) and the gospels and psalms. All combined into one big book. The christian couldn't belive me...let's argue what he thinks...muhammad SAW wrote the quran...even so all these facts that correlate with science are true...also Muhammad did not write the quran...it was delivered as an oral message from God. Memorized and recited in our prayer. People than wrote it down AFTER his death to make it easier for those who cant memorize and to persecre it. They checked the autencity with those who did memorize it.

Science is a human concept which is why I avoid saying science. Science is ever changing and some theory can be proven and disproved. But the things I mentioned are FACTS. Science is the measurement of our surronding and theories from what humans can understand. EVERYTHING Muhammad SAW came true and predicted.

Not just that even the things the Prophet SAW said are true such as seeing of many types colors in paradise...meaning color is a limited wavelength only we humans can see...however animals can see things we cant. THIS is proven. Such as infrared color. In paradise we can see colors that cant be imagined....there so many more things...but honestly you have to put in work and cant expect us to feed you everything. You have to try yourself and actually STUDY the quran and the life of Muhammad. Even if you say what if your wrong..then if I'm wrong I'm stil happy i lived a life beautiful religion that gave everyone civil rights INCLUDING women and blacks. I'm proud to be a good person and helped others...but think of this way...what if you are wrong? What will you do then? Are you not scared of what might happen if you are? Isnt it better to die as a good person belive on the best cause?

My scholar or spiritual leader in the mosque said when a muslim became an atheist...he asked him how he is feeling about life...the atheist said BY GOD I am even more confused with life.

God gives purpose with life and tells us what to do and not to do FOR OUR BENEFIT. Think of the celebrities who have everything but still are depressed because they feel as they have no purpose on life.

So honestly chalks it depends on you in the end...my brothers and sisters can only inform you of our religion. There is no compulsion in ours.
Reply

chalks75
07-26-2019, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Studentofdeed
Hello Chalks75...I'm going to explain why I am a muslim. Maybe it may give insight and better understanding?

The quran hasnt been changed...ever. You acknowledge this right? Yet notice many things that are discovered in the quran that are true...such as two seas of salt water and fresh water not mixing...such as the development of the embryo...prediction of the Bzystantie empire defeating the fire worshiping persians. All life comes from water...everything in space has an orbit...sun is like a lamp glowing and burning energy while the The Arabic word for moon is 'qamar' and the light described there is 'muneer' which is borrowed light, or 'noor' which is a reflection of light." There is many more scientific facts...of course Christian's and other religions will claim their book is true but they know it has been changed. When I was debating with a christian...he asked me who wrote the quran...I told him it came from god...no man wrote it. The bible is man made because it was been translated and combined from torah (old testament) and the gospels and psalms. All combined into one big book. The christian couldn't belive me...let's argue what he thinks...muhammad SAW wrote the quran...even so all these facts that correlate with science are true...also Muhammad did not write the quran...it was delivered as an oral message from God. Memorized and recited in our prayer. People than wrote it down AFTER his death to make it easier for those who cant memorize and to persecre it. They checked the autencity with those who did memorize it.

Science is a human concept which is why I avoid saying science. Science is ever changing and some theory can be proven and disproved. But the things I mentioned are FACTS. Science is the measurement of our surronding and theories from what humans can understand. EVERYTHING Muhammad SAW came true and predicted.

Not just that even the things the Prophet SAW said are true such as seeing of many types colors in paradise...meaning color is a limited wavelength only we humans can see...however animals can see things we cant. THIS is proven. Such as infrared color. In paradise we can see colors that cant be imagined....there so many more things...but honestly you have to put in work and cant expect us to feed you everything. You have to try yourself and actually STUDY the quran and the life of Muhammad. Even if you say what if your wrong..then if I'm wrong I'm stil happy i lived a life beautiful religion that gave everyone civil rights INCLUDING women and blacks. I'm proud to be a good person and helped others...but think of this way...what if you are wrong? What will you do then? Are you not scared of what might happen if you are? Isnt it better to die as a good person belive on the best cause?

My scholar or spiritual leader in the mosque said when a muslim became an atheist...he asked him how he is feeling about life...the atheist said BY GOD I am even more confused with life.

God gives purpose with life and tells us what to do and not to do FOR OUR BENEFIT. Think of the celebrities who have everything but still are depressed because they feel as they have no purpose on life.

So honestly chalks it depends on you in the end...my brothers and sisters can only inform you of our religion. There is no compulsion in ours.
The fact that the Quran has not changed , is in no way evidence that it’s true ... it is only evidence that it hasn’t change.

If you can find verses in the Quran that if you interpret them in a certain way , you can make them seem they conform to scientific discoveries.
Christians do this with the bible as well
“ this must mean that”

Even if there are claims in the Quran that are confined by science , that does not mean the entire book is true.

Each claim falls or stands on its own merit.

Can I ask you .

I’ve heard lots of arguments for the existence of a god , from some Muslims , but mostly from Christians.
( As it happens, both use the same arguments)

From what I’ve heard , and from my understanding ... I am not convinced.

So would you say that until I am convinced then im right to be A-theist.
Reply

Studentofdeed
07-26-2019, 10:30 PM
What do you mean by " this mean that"...I just told you so many things that science has just RECENTLY discovered...again and again we tell you to read the Quran and the life of Muhammad SAW. The prophecies he said which ALL are coming true...how would he know? He was illiterate and in the middle of nowhere. For example the most strongest one is the prediction of the state of arabs. Arabs back then were nomad and desert herders...they had no shoes and were so poor. He said one day they will compete with each other building tall lofty towers...if you take an look a Dubai the tallest building is there and they are building more towers. Saudi arabia is now building a tower even taller than that. Honestly man as I said it really depends on you...but you have analyze your self. Even after giving these things that are true. I still do not understand why deny? You honestly have to do your research. You cant expect everyone to give you all they know on an online forum.
Reply

Zafran
07-27-2019, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
The Kalam cosmological argument.
Originated in Islam
“ everything that begins to exist has a cause
The universe began to exist
The universe has a cause “
That is the kalam cosmological argument

It’s conclusion “ the universe has a cause “
Its not the Kalam cosmological argument - although that is one in the tradition - Its actually called Burhan al Hudth which is also aided by Burhan al Huduth Ajsam and argument for prophets etc. Not to be confused with William Lane Graig's popularizing of one Kalam argument - there are a few. People like Al Ghazzali, Razi, Taftazani, Ibn Sina etc etc

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
How fast a religion grows or how many people believe it ... has zero bearing on its truth.
At one time Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the planet , it shaped countries , changed entire continents
Do this make Christianity true ... is Jesus a god?
Thats because it has truth in it. It shows that Jesus pbuh is a prophet.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
The Big Bang theory states the universe was a singularity that expanded, it does not state a universe came from nothing .
spece time began with the big bang showing the Universe is contingent - do you have any proof to the contrary? so far you haven't provided a single one. You have not provided a deductive, Inductive, abductive or reasoning by analogy argument. so your position is irrational so far.

Originally Posted by chalks75
You make logical inferences because YOU BELIVE there is a god
Just like the empty box , you can come to logical conclusions that are wrong, if you believe there is something in the box.
I make logical inferences with the evidence we have. It shows the the Universe is contingent (had a beginning, has bodies, Changes etc). You haven't provided any contrary proof showing you have no rational argument to engage with.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
I’m not convinced gods or a god is real , I’ve seen no evidence nor heard any argument that would compel me to believe the claim
“ some god exists” therefore I am not convinced some god (gods) exists ...
This is not a rational argument - you have to prove the universe isnt contingent - if you cannot do that then the argument for the existence of God and prophets stands rationally.

Originally Posted by chalks75
Therefore the only rational position I can take is that of A-theism.
No it isn't because no rational argument has been provided.

Originally Posted by chalks75
A-theism , is a perfectly rational and logical position to hold.
You haven't provided a single rational argument for your atheism - which of course makes it irrational. You shouldn't be ashamed of this Nietzsche, Jean Paul Sartre, Albert Camus thought it was Irrational as well. We might have a better and a more fulfilling conversation that way otherwise we can carry on the logic game......

So the argument can you prove the universe isn't contingent?
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 06:20 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Its not the Kalam cosmological argument - although that is one in the tradition - Its actually called Burhan al Hudth which is also aided by Burhan al Huduth Ajsam and argument for prophets etc. Not to be confused with William Lane Graig's popularizing of one Kalam argument - there are a few. People like Al Ghazzali, Razi, Taftazani, Ibn Sina etc etc

- - - Updated - - -



Thats because it has truth in it. It shows that Jesus pbuh is a prophet.

- - - Updated - - -



spece time began with the big bang showing the Universe is contingent - do you have any proof to the contrary? so far you haven't provided a single one. You have not provided a deductive, Inductive, abductive or reasoning by analogy argument. so your position is irrational so far.



I make logical inferences with the evidence we have. It shows the the Universe is contingent (had a beginning, has bodies, Changes etc). You haven't provided any contrary proof showing you have no rational argument to engage with.

- - - Updated - - -



This is not a rational argument - you have to prove the universe isnt contingent - if you cannot do that then the argument for the existence of God and prophets stands rationally.



No it isn't because no rational argument has been provided.



You haven't provided a single rational argument for your atheism - which of course makes it irrational. You shouldn't be ashamed of this Nietzsche, Jean Paul Sartre, Albert Camus thought it was Irrational as well. We might have a better and a more fulfilling conversation that way otherwise we can carry on the logic game......

So the argument can you prove the universe isn't contingent?

A rational argument for atheism
Do you think it’s rational to believe something , that you are not convinced is true ?
Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, it’s a rejection of your claim that “ some god exists”
You have the burden of proof to prove your claim is true , I do not have to disprove it.

Until you prove it to my satisfaction .... am I not right to disbelieve it.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 06:22 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
A rational argument for atheism
Do you think it’s rational to believe something , that you are not convinced is true ?
Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, it’s a rejection of your claim that “ some god exists”
You have the burden of proof to prove your claim is true , I do not have to disprove it.

Until you prove it to my satisfaction .... am I not right to disbelieve it.

Did I say the universe is not contingent ... no
I said , no one knows if the Big Bang was the beginning.

https://www.sciencealert.com/mind-be...e-the-big-bang

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com...-the-big-bang/

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

Please read ALL this lecture by Stephen hawking carefully... pay particular attention to.

“Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them”.

“At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity. At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang. The universe will evolve from the Big Bang, completely independently of what it was like before. Even the amount of matter in the universe, can be different to what it was before the Big Bang, as the Law of Conservation of Matter, will break down at the Big Bang”.
********************************************


No one knows if the Big Bang was the beginning, we can make no observations to gain information about it.

At no stage in the scientific understanding or in the theory of expansion ... is there a “nothing “

There can’t “be” a nothing
To be , is to be in a state of existence , nothing cannot be in a state of existence.

If you like , I could provide more quotes from cosmologists saying they do not know if the Big Bang was the beginning.

https://dailygalaxy.com/2017/12/befo...7-most-viewed/
Reply

Physicist
07-27-2019, 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
A rational argument for atheism
Do you think it’s rational to believe something , that you are not convinced is true ?
Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, it’s a rejection of your claim that “ some god exists”
You have the burden of proof to prove your claim is true , I do not have to disprove it.

Until you prove it to my satisfaction .... am I not right to disbelieve it.
I haven't find that argument convincing at all, simply because I agree with it :)

Rather, I would say that atheism is a kind of ignorance, when one don't really bothers to look deep into peer's point of view.

When a new scientific theory is being published, majority of scientists swiftly rejecting it because it goes against their established beliefs.
One don't need to be convinced in theory, to try it. That's what science is based on, not mere sophisticated logical theoretization, but every little step being supported by experimental confirmation to sort out sometime beautifull but invalid theories.

Like with the curvatute of universe's hypersphere, you can't setup local experiment about divine matters.
Best you can do is to consider entire picture available.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Physicist
I haven't find that argument convincing at all, simply because I agree with it :)

Rather, I would say that atheism is a kind of ignorance, when one don't really bothers to look deep into peer's point of view.

When a new scientific theory is being published, majority of scientists swiftly rejecting it because it goes against their established beliefs.
One don't need to be convinced in theory, to try it. That's what science is based on, not mere sophisticated logical theoretization, but every little step being supported by experimental confirmation to sort out sometime beautifull but invalid theories.

Like with the curvatute of universe's hypersphere, you can't setup local experiment about divine matters.
Best you can do is to consider entire picture available.
You could be an atheist because of ignorance .

If no one ever taught you about allah and Islam , if you had never heard of it , or had ever been told about the concept of a god or gods , then chances are you would be an atheist.

Atheism is the position of not being convinced.
For example , you are not convinced the Hindu gods are real , or the Norse or Greek gods ... so in relation to them you are A-theist.

I am not convinced your god is real(I’m not convinced any gods are real)
Therefore I am an atheist.

Am I an atheist because of ignorance , it’s possible , but I have been talking to religious people (like yourself ) , I’ve been reading books , watching debates , listening to lectures , and from what I’ve come to understand.... I’m not convinced , since I’m unconvinced ... I have no choice but to be an atheist.

I’m sure you would agree that if you are not convinced something is true .... then it’s only rational to not believe it’s true.

( please note , this is entirely separate from wether it is actually true or not)

Atheism is only concerned with belief or lack of to be more precise , nothing else.
I’m not saying you god does not exist ,or can not exist , only that I’m not convinced it exists.
Reply

Physicist
07-27-2019, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
You could be an atheist because of ignorance .

If no one ever taught you about allah and Islam , if you had never heard of it , or had ever been told about the concept of a god or gods , then chances are you would be an atheist.

Atheism is the position of not being convinced.
For example , you are not convinced the Hindu gods are real , or the Norse or Greek gods ... so in relation to them you are A-theist.

I am not convinced your god is real(I’m not convinced any gods are real)
Therefore I am an atheist.

Am I an atheist because of ignorance , it’s possible , but I have been talking to religious people (like yourself ) , I’ve been reading books , watching debates , listening to lectures , and from what I’ve come to understand.... I’m not convinced , since I’m unconvinced ... I have no choice but to be an atheist.

I’m sure you would agree that if you are not convinced something is true .... then it’s only rational to not believe it’s true.

( please note , this is entirely separate from wether it is actually true or not)

Atheism is only concerned with belief or lack of to be more precise , nothing else.
I’m not saying you god does not exist ,or can not exist , only that I’m not convinced it exists.
Not being convinced is an agnosticism.
Atheism, like any other fanaticism, is avoiding even to consider what is against your established beliefs.

Yes, you are kind of talking to people here.
But do you really seek for truth or just playing around to entertain yourself?
Did you get anything for yourself from this thread other than a feeling of superiority?
Did any post make you to think?

As what I see in this conversation, you are answering everyone but doing this swiftly, for a simpliest part of the post, more like for a sport of argument rather than considering seriously to ponder ideas you were introduced to.

I admit, this can be overwhelming, I myself don't even read fully other posts.
But bro, this is kind of your thread, if you have not enough time to go through everything thoroughly, take your time, discuss in details if found anything interesting.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Physicist
Not being convinced is an agnosticism.
Atheism, like any other fanaticism, is avoiding even to consider what is against your established beliefs.

Yes, you are kind of talking to people here.
But do you really seek for truth or just playing around to entertain yourself?
Did you get anything for yourself from this thread other than a feeling of superiority?
Did any post make you to think?

As what I see in this conversation, you are answering everyone but doing this swiftly, for a simpliest part of the post, more like for a sport of argument rather than considering seriously to ponder ideas you were introduced to.

I admit, this can be overwhelming, I myself don't even read fully other posts.
But bro, this is kind of your thread, if you have not enough time to go through everything thoroughly, take your time, discuss in details if found anything interesting.
Agnosticism is not knowing
Atheism is not believing .

The reason I can answer these posts quickly , is because I’ve spend the better part of 7-8 years thinking about these things , debating with Christians , jews and a few Hindus ,
All the arguments you use , are used by other faiths to argue for the truth of their gods , nearly verbatim.

Even the appeals to read the holy book
“ if you just read the book with an open mind , and an open heart “
I’ve hears from Christians, jews, and Hindus.

They all claim the book is special , that it has been revealed by a god.

I was hoping when I came on here that I would see some new argument or angle , but so far nothing.

I’ve been thinking about this stuff , and investigating it , which is why I know about the laws of logic, the Big Bang theory, solipsism, it’s why I know about the kalam cosmological argument, argument from design , argument for contingency, morality etc .... I’ve been considering the “evidence “
So far I’m not convinced ... so I’m an atheist
Reply

Physicist
07-27-2019, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Agnosticism is not knowing
Atheism is not believing .

The reason I can answer these posts quickly , is because I’ve spend the better part of 7-8 years thinking about these things , debating with Christians , jews and a few Hindus ,
All the arguments you use , are used by other faiths to argue for the truth of their gods , nearly verbatim.

Even the appeals to read the holy book
“ if you just read the book with an open mind , and an open heart “
I’ve hears from Christians, jews, and Hindus.

They all claim the book is special , that it has been revealed by a god.

I was hoping when I came on here that I would see some new argument or angle , but so far nothing.

I’ve been thinking about this stuff , and investigating it , which is why I know about the laws of logic, the Big Bang theory, solipsism, it’s why I know about the kalam cosmological argument, argument from design , argument for contingency, morality etc .... I’ve been considering the “evidence “
So far I’m not convinced ... so I’m an atheist
Indeed, you have a great experience of debating, perhaps you did some research before.
But what is it now about? Don't you feel like you've tired of research and rather aiming to convince others in atheism?

I was hoping when I came on here that I would see some new argument or angle , but so far nothing.
Then you didn't look properly.
I can't say about others, but what I was posting is from my own theory which I posted nowhere but in this forum.
If you have seen it elsewhere, I will really appreciate a link for.

You simply have ignored math/physics staff, which I planted as a hook for a would be lengthy conversation. At least you have reacted about REM-thinking, admitting having no knowledge about.

So, do you admit that you don't really understand all arguments you are introduced to? That perhaps there are some theories behind your ability to grasp?

The best you can do is to estimate validity of such theories based on the authority of the sources.
Well, you will be right to dismiss my theory as from some unknown guy bearing no authority other than a nickname :)
But for authority, consider that, majority of greatest scientists, nobel-prize winners do believe in God.
What differs great scientist from ordinary one is the strong intuition, ability to use their unconscious thinking.

If you are looking for a simple logical proof of religion to be truth, there is none so far, all beliefs are rooted in unconscious more or less.
May be in the future we will have simple logical explanation available for high school alumni. Perhaps that would be too late to benefit from it, In Islam such times referred as the Day of Judgement.
How sorry many of us for not considering BitCoin seriously at it's early appearance.
Reply

chalks75
07-27-2019, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by Physicist
Indeed, you have a great experience of debating, perhaps you did some research before.
But what is it now about? Don't you feel like you've tired of research and rather aiming to convince others in atheism?



Then you didn't look properly.
I can't say about others, but what I was posting is from my own theory which I posted nowhere but in this forum.
If you have seen it elsewhere, I will really appreciate a link for.

You simply have ignored math/physics staff, which I planted as a hook for a would be lengthy conversation. At least you have reacted about REM-thinking, admitting having no knowledge about.

So, do you admit that you don't really understand all arguments you are introduced to? That perhaps there are some theories behind your ability to grasp?

The best you can do is to estimate validity of such theories based on the authority of the sources.
Well, you will be right to dismiss my theory as from some unknown guy bearing no authority other than a nickname :)
But for authority, consider that, majority of greatest scientists, nobel-prize winners do believe in God.
What differs great scientist from ordinary one is the strong intuition, ability to use their unconscious thinking.

If you are looking for a simple logical proof of religion to be truth, there is none so far, all beliefs are rooted in unconscious more or less.
May be in the future we will have simple logical explanation available for high school alumni. Perhaps that would be too late to benefit from it, In Islam such times referred as the Day of Judgement.
How sorry many of us for not considering BitCoin seriously at it's early appearance.
I’ve been thinking and looking into this stuff for years ...
There is no way , I would believe so something just because a person of “ authority” said it’s true , that is s logical fallacy ( argument from ignorance)

If you feel I have ignored any points you have raised , i do apologise , I try my best to address points raised, if I’ve missed something feel free to remind me.

You said there is no logical proof for religion

If this is the case , then I have no reason to believe it’s true.

I’m not trying to convince you to be an atheist , I’m trying to understand why you believe the things you do.
And maybe , encourage you to ask yourself , why you believe the things you do .

It’s healthy to take stock every now and then , to examine your thinking .
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Zafran
07-28-2019, 12:29 AM
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Zafran
07-28-2019, 01:13 AM
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Ümit
07-29-2019, 06:51 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I’ve been thinking and looking into this stuff for years ...
There is no way , I would believe so something just because a person of “ authority” said it’s true , that is s logical fallacy ( argument from ignorance)

If you feel I have ignored any points you have raised , i do apologise , I try my best to address points raised, if I’ve missed something feel free to remind me.

You said there is no logical proof for religion

If this is the case , then I have no reason to believe it’s true.
yes you have. There is no proof that God exists. if there was proof, then our entire existence on earth would be useless. Our phase on Earth is just a test. It is all about believing. If we could logically proof that God exists, then we wouldn't need to believe anymore, faith would not be needed.

So it is only logical that there is no proof for religion.

But you have something else to believe it's true...which are miracles.
Definition of miracle: an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
in other words, the chance of happening is impossible, and yet it happens.
One of these miracles is the revelation of the Quran. I already mentioned that our prophet sas was illiterate...which is a fact.
He dictated the whole Quraan to us which is also a fact.
Not one character in the Quraan can be proven faulty by science...which is also a fact.

It is a miracle that an illiterate person can dictate an entire book with over 600 pages flawlessly...1400 years ago and in such a way that science nowadays cannot find any contradictions in it.

You cannot ignore this. you can only believe in it.

Originally Posted by chalks75

I’m not trying to convince you to be an atheist , I’m trying to understand why you believe the things you do.
And maybe , encourage you to ask yourself , why you believe the things you do .

It’s healthy to take stock every now and then , to examine your thinking .
you have nothing to prove that God exists. you have nothing to prove how the universe came into existence...But...
You have some information GIVEN to you...which are said revelations from God.
This information has been obtained miaculously and the content is flawless.

The least you should do examine the given information and to test whether there are contradictions in it or not.
Anything less than flawless means the information is NOT divine.

What you cannot do, is just ignore it as a scientist...

So you have the burden of proof that the Quraan is anything less than flawless.

You cannot expect from us to prove that something is perfect. How do you do that? you look for errors...The Quraan has no errors...
If you can find any, you have a right to disbelieve...untill then, you have a job to do as an atheist.
Reply

chalks75
07-29-2019, 08:32 AM
Originally Posted by Ümit
yes you have. There is no proof that God exists. if there was proof, then our entire existence on earth would be useless. Our phase on Earth is just a test. It is all about believing. If we could logically proof that God exists, then we wouldn't need to believe anymore, faith would not be needed.

So it is only logical that there is no proof for religion.

But you have something else to believe it's true...which are miracles.
Definition of miracle: an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
in other words, the chance of happening is impossible, and yet it happens.
One of these miracles is the revelation of the Quran. I already mentioned that our prophet sas was illiterate...which is a fact.
He dictated the whole Quraan to us which is also a fact.
Not one character in the Quraan can be proven faulty by science...which is also a fact.

It is a miracle that an illiterate person can dictate an entire book with over 600 pages flawlessly...1400 years ago and in such a way that science nowadays cannot find any contradictions in it.

You cannot ignore this. you can only believe in it.


you have nothing to prove that God exists. you have nothing to prove how the universe came into existence...But...
You have some information GIVEN to you...which are said revelations from God.
This information has been obtained miaculously and the content is flawless.

The least you should do examine the given information and to test whether there are contradictions in it or not.
Anything less than flawless means the information is NOT divine.

What you cannot do, is just ignore it as a scientist...

So you have the burden of proof that the Quraan is anything less than flawless.

You cannot expect from us to prove that something is perfect. How do you do that? you look for errors...The Quraan has no errors...
If you can find any, you have a right to disbelieve...untill then, you have a job to do as an atheist.
You said
“ there is no proof a god exists , it’s all about believing “

If that is the case, if there is no proof
Then I have no reason to believe .

Yeas you claim Muhammad was illiterate
And , I will believe that as soon as you can prove it.
Claims are not evidence.
The Quran is evidence , it’s the claim.

The Quran says the sun is stationary ... it is not ,not only does it spin on its axis, it is part of a spinning spiral galaxy, which in itself is moving through space ... but people didn’t know that in the Bronze Age.

If something is internally consistent , that does not make it true .

How do you know it’s flawless , how do you know it says what it’s meant to say.

You make quite a few assertions , and you have no way to Demonstrate they are true.

If you cannot demonstrate they are true ... I have no reason to believe they are true.
Reply

Ümit
07-29-2019, 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
You said
“ there is no proof a god exists , it’s all about believing “

If that is the case, if there is no proof
Then I have no reason to believe .
Your decision, your loss. nobody is forcing you to believe...arguments and evidences have been presented to you, miracles have been pointed out.
up to you whether to ignore and reject all that or not.

Originally Posted by chalks75

Yeas you claim Muhammad was illiterate
And , I will believe that as soon as you can prove it.
again, investigate that and you will find out. there is very little disagreement about this. even non-muslim scholars who neccessarily publish good things about our prophet do not question that he was illiterate. So I really do not have the urge to find legio of publications for you just to show you that he was. if you really were interested in the truth, you would already investigate this on your own. so...you got this.

Originally Posted by chalks75

Claims are not evidence.
The Quran is evidence , it’s the claim.
Claim is that the Quraan is divine. the whole miracle how it came into existence in such circumstances and its flawless content support that, and is therefore evidence.
Originally Posted by chalks75

The Quran says the sun is stationary ... it is not ,not only does it spin on its axis, it is part of a spinning spiral galaxy, which in itself is moving through space ... but people didn’t know that in the Bronze Age.
First of all, Where did you get this from? please provide verse number.
Secondly, have you checked the verse about translation errors?
Thirldly, motion is relative. one could say the moon is stationary and everything else revolves in some complex pattern around the moon....that would make one complex model but technically it would still be correct....so what are you talking about?

Originally Posted by chalks75

If something is internally consistent , that does not make it true .

How do you know it’s flawless , how do you know it says what it’s meant to say.

You make quite a few assertions , and you have no way to Demonstrate they are true.

If you cannot demonstrate they are true ... I have no reason to believe they are true.
It is flawless because it is in harmony with science. It is flawles because modern science untill today cannot prove one single flaw in the Quraan.
If there are, please present. if you cannot find any flaws in it, then it is flawless, as easy as that...
Problemm with you is that you just want to argue...you have no interest in the truth...and therefore too lazy to investigate the truth...you would if you were interested enough.
So, I do not feel obligated to search things for you...sorry about that.
Reply

chalks75
07-29-2019, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ümit
Your decision, your loss. nobody is forcing you to believe...arguments and evidences have been presented to you, miracles have been pointed out.
up to you whether to ignore and reject all that or not.



again, investigate that and you will find out. there is very little disagreement about this. even non-muslim scholars who neccessarily publish good things about our prophet do not question that he was illiterate. So I really do not have the urge to find legio of publications for you just to show you that he was. if you really were interested in the truth, you would already investigate this on your own. so...you got this.


Claim is that the Quraan is divine. the whole miracle how it came into existence in such circumstances and its flawless content support that, and is therefore evidence.

First of all, Where did you get this from? please provide verse number.
Secondly, have you checked the verse about translation errors?
Thirldly, motion is relative. one could say the moon is stationary and everything else revolves in some complex pattern around the moon....that would make one complex model but technically it would still be correct....so what are you talking about?


It is flawless because it is in harmony with science. It is flawles because modern science untill today cannot prove one single flaw in the Quraan.
If there are, please present. if you cannot find any flaws in it, then it is flawless, as easy as that...
Problemm with you is that you just want to argue...you have no interest in the truth...and therefore too lazy to investigate the truth...you would if you were interested enough.
So, I do not feel obligated to search things for you...sorry about that.
You could say the moon is stationary ... but you would be wrong.

I’m not sure of the quote from the Quran.
It was presented by another poster on the forum as “ evidence” of the Quran being in harmony with science.

I think he was trying to say that the Quran predicted the heliocentric model of the universe .
The quote said something like the sun was stationary , which is completely untrue
The sun has 3 different ranges of motion.
https://youtu.be/C4V-ooITrws

What you claim to be miracles have been pointed out , I don’t agree they are miracles, and they haven’t been demonstrated.

Does the Quran day that we evolved , that we have s common ancestor with apes ?
If not, then it’s not in harmony with science.
Reply

chalks75
07-29-2019, 12:39 PM
I think I’ve heard enough.

I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
I came on here hoping to hear something different.

The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
The way of thinking , the same
The false confidence , the same.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
That was never my intention.

I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

Good luck for the future
All the best .
Reply

Ümit
07-29-2019, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
You could say the moon is stationary ... but you would be wrong.
Do you understand what "relative" even means? It means in order to detect motion, you first have to choose a reference point. the object then moves compaired to the reference point.
you could theoretically choose your reference point somewhere on the moon and then you would see that everything revolves around the moon.
Originally Posted by chalks75
I’m not sure of the quote from the Quran.
It was presented by another poster on the forum as “ evidence” of the Quran being in harmony with science.

I think he was trying to say that the Quran predicted the heliocentric model of the universe .
The quote said something like the sun was stationary , which is completely untrue
The sun has 3 different ranges of motion.
https://youtu.be/C4V-ooITrws
You do not have to try to present me sources for the movement of the sun...I am familiar with that.

Originally Posted by chalks75
What you claim to be miracles have been pointed out , I don’t agree they are miracles, and they haven’t been demonstrated.

Does the Quran day that we evolved , that we have s common ancestor with apes ?
If not, then it’s not in harmony with science.
We do not even know whether evolution theory is true or not...so science itself can be wrong about that. However, we support that evolution could be a tool God used to create living flora and fauna on earth.

clues for that? we believe that God created Adam as from clay, dirt...basically the building material from earth. when we die, our bodies rot away and become a part of earth again.
So do animals and plants when they die. so, they are also made from the same material as humans.

Evolution does not neccessarily mean animals have been developing on their own. God was always in the background...every single mutation.
So highly possible...but not on its own.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by chalks75
I think I’ve heard enough.

I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
I came on here hoping to hear something different.

The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
The way of thinking , the same
The false confidence , the same.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
That was never my intention.

I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

Good luck for the future
All the best .
No, you never considered a single thing we said...you just came here to argue....and yet we still trying to answer your questions patiently.
But you are not doing your homework.
Reply

Ahmed.
07-29-2019, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
I think I’ve heard enough.

I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
I came on here hoping to hear something different.

The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
The way of thinking , the same
The false confidence , the same.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
That was never my intention.

I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

Good luck for the future
All the best .
The same??? Lol! As I suspected, you have ignored all the differences I elucidated between other faiths and ours to show you how they are NOT the same and we really have convincing and overwhelming proof for our religion unlike the others'

1. Islam is the only rational and according to science religion
2. Muslims are the only people who believe in their faith without doubt
3. We are the only religion with countless miracles in our scriptures not least the scientific one's

Etc etc

But as predicted, you have ignored all of this so you can carry on your 'excuses' to remain an athiest! :rollseyes

You are another proof of Islam:

002.006 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
002.007 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.


Just a quick explanation of that last verse, this basically means the desbeliever himself seals his heart ears and mind from Truth (by ignoring evidences and being insincere like you have) and the part Allah plays in it is that he enables it all as nothing can happen without His will
Reply

'Abdullah
07-29-2019, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by chalks75
The Quran says the sun is stationary ... it is not ,not only does it spin on its axis, it is part of a spinning spiral galaxy, which in itself is moving through space ... but people didn’t know that in the Bronze Age.
He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? ( Quran 39, 5)
And the Sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. And We have decreed set phases for the Moon, until it ends up looking like an old palm spathe. It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Quran 36, 38-40)
I gave two quotes from Quran both indicating that Sun is not stationary. Do you find any other conflict in Quran?
Reply

keiv
07-30-2019, 10:37 AM
Here is some insight on the concept of tawaf:

https://www.muftisays.com/forums/62-...f-and-why.html
https://archive.islamonline.net/?p=14976

Reply

universecloud
08-25-2019, 06:23 AM
Brother I would advise you to look into this person "Zakir Naik" he has alot of videos you might find interesting, why don't you take a look there.

Every religion has their own book.

The Christians have 1 but with so many different translations, why is that ? They all believe in that 1 god, so why don't they unite those books into one ?

In India it's the same thing with multiple religions with many sub categories.

Now to your point, as I see that you are a true seeker, I hope Allah will prove to you his existence some day.

Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators.[23:14]

Now I want to ask you, as you deny the existence, could you tell me who created it ? Tell me what is your logic here so I can understand you better.

Allah has given us 4 books which he scattered across the world for different tribes. As Muslims we all believe in all those books, tawrat(Torah, for the jews, Enjeel(bible, for the Christians), zabur(book of dawud, pre-islamic Christians), Quran(Muslims, for all man kind).

We Muslims believe in all 4 and those who don't believe that aren't true Muslims but now the problem here is that the Bible, Torah, zabur (not too sure about zabur, I don't know much about it) have all been altered, changing the words of God (again, I understand that you still need proof of him).

To our knowledge a god is a perfect, absolute being.

And then when you look at the Bible you'd see people categorizing themselves with different groups even thought they all follow the same god, now how can this be, if god is perfect, how come he allowed such a thing to happen ? When you say Jesus powers were through god, so who is god ? Mind that also, if you go read about it, Jesus was never killed and crossed! But he was raised into the heavens (another topic).

Many other religions are similar.

I'm not too sure but there is the possiblility of religions other than (Islam which possesses the same one book, no different translations, the exact point of view anywhere you go (whether the people speak English, Urdu, Bengali, arabic they all translate to the same thing) ), other religions probably have the same thing but I don't know, the Buddha's have their own unified believe but I can't give you an explanation there (my knowledge is limited), I'd seek Dr. Zakir Naik! He is the one you need to answer your questions, he is a logical, scientific man and loves to debate! I'd really look him up if you are interested.
Reply

peaceandlove
02-26-2020, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by chalks75
Hi , my name is chalky
I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.
Well, I just have a question for you

Did you believe , if somebody same , there are some plastic parts in a garbage truck and suddenly i see they all mix up itself and then suddenly a computer is formed and its start running ? or you can take any such example

the define answer is NO, you will say it wont a happen unless someone is going to do it.

So if not even a simple thing can be created by itself how can such a big universe (we already know only about a dot in univers, our universe is so vast that we can noot even think on it) is running so accurately.

Our life is the best example if we exist then ALLAH (GOD) our creator exist is the best proof for us.

Its not something complex just think on it,

and yes, some time you had to listen what your heart is saying and not whats your mind is, your heart will guide you right. so before sleeping in quiet place ask these question with your own heart and your heart will give you asnwer.
Reply

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