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nurseken7
02-29-2020, 06:19 PM
Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that genuine religious liberty necessarily includes freedom to change religions no matter which religion you belong too. I have read that Saudi Arabia would not sign on to this document because of Article 18 and other Islamic authorities say this is against Islam. Also no Muslim majority nation officially guarantees Muslims freedom to leave Islam. Is this true? I am not trying to get Muslims to leave Islam, it's not my business, just saying all people, regardless of religion, should have absolute freedom to leave any religion, including Islam. Is that against Islam?
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soheil1
03-06-2020, 11:30 PM
Deleted
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Ümit
03-06-2020, 11:51 PM
let me put it this way...
as long as you're not alone on this planet...you will NEVER EVER have ultimate freedom...because you need to share.
what you claim as your freedom...is automatically a limit for the other....so, forget about your ultimate freedom...that does not exist...except for Allah of course.
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نور الرحمن
03-12-2020, 08:38 PM
Dear questioner do know that in chapter 2 article 256 of the mankind owner's manual by God has mentioned your enquiry and it says as follows: {There shall be no compulsion in religion} so we understand that He allowed freedom of religion way before the universal declaration of the human rights but it is God who defines what rights we can practice freely and the freedom of relegion is one of the most essential rights for mankind and so many more mentioned in his book. May God bless you and guides you to the right path and praise be to Him The Giver Of Human Rights.
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nurseken7
04-19-2020, 08:24 PM
You need to go back and read my post again. I said nothing about "ultimate freedom" whatever that means. I said all people everywhere, including Muslims should have absolute freedom to change which religion they belong to for any reason they see fit. This basic human right is not respected by Muslim majority governments. It should be. Do you think it is against Islam for a government to guarantee all Muslims freedom to leave Islam if they want to?
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soheil1
04-19-2020, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
You need to go back and read my post again. I said nothing about "ultimate freedom" whatever that means. I said all people everywhere, including Muslims should have absolute freedom to change which religion they belong to for any reason they see fit. This basic human right is not respected by Muslim majority governments. It should be. Do you think it is against Islam for a government to guarantee all Muslims freedom to leave Islam if they want to?
Islam is silent about that, as far as I know. it is a personal choice.
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nurseken7
04-19-2020, 08:45 PM
that is not what the scholars of Islam say. The Salafists i have spoken to say point blank "the penalty for leaving Islam is death". The Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights talks about religious liberty but does not mention Muslims freedom to leave Islam Most Islamic scholars I know of say Muslims should not be guaranteed freedom to leave Islam. This disqualifies Islam from being a religion of peace.
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CuriousonTruth
04-19-2020, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
that is not what the scholars of Islam say. The Salafists i have spoken to say point blank "the penalty for leaving Islam is death". The Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights talks about religious liberty but does not mention Muslims freedom to leave Islam Most Islamic scholars I know of say Muslims should not be guaranteed freedom to leave Islam. This disqualifies Islam from being a religion of peace.
Liberal muslims claim "islam is peace" not conservatives or in Western terms "right-wing" muslims would not claim it is.

As for what you've heard there's a lot more nuance to that topic. There has been 1,400 years between now and Islam, if we were going on a witch-hunt like Christians for every apostate those would be documented. Very few of the Caliphs went that far. Even Omar al Khayyam who had agnostic views and criticized organized religion in his poetry wasn't persecuted.

And today, personally, I don't mind people leaving Islam. Islam is not a liberal religion, so if you're a Liberal and don't you belong in the religion and don't accept its ideology, well it's best to go elsewhere, become a Communist and starve to death I don't care.

Infact radical atheist ex-muslims, help to preach islam because their extreme views become our strawman in debates, etc.
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soheil1
04-19-2020, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
that is not what the scholars of Islam say. The Salafists i have spoken to say point blank "the penalty for leaving Islam is death". The Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights talks about religious liberty but does not mention Muslims freedom to leave Islam Most Islamic scholars I know of say Muslims should not be guaranteed freedom to leave Islam. This disqualifies Islam from being a religion of peace.
As far as it is kept personal, no one can prosecute you.
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Ümit
04-19-2020, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
You need to go back and read my post again. I said nothing about "ultimate freedom" whatever that means. I said all people everywhere, including Muslims should have absolute freedom to change which religion they belong to for any reason they see fit. This basic human right is not respected by Muslim majority governments. It should be. Do you think it is against Islam for a government to guarantee all Muslims freedom to leave Islam if they want to?
I am not sure what you are asking here right now...are you saying people who leave Islaam should not be prosecuted?
or are you saying...people who leave Islaam should not be punished in the afterlife?
if you mean the first:
for what I know...a person can leave Islam if he wishes to...but of course there are consequences for that in the afterlife.
however, if you mean the last:
it is like asking your government to have the freedom to steal, rob or kill without being prosecuted....so not very logical.
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nurseken7
04-20-2020, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by Ümit
I am not sure what you are asking here right now...are you saying people who leave Islaam should not be prosecuted?
or are you saying...people who leave Islaam should not be punished in the afterlife?
if you mean the first:
for what I know...a person can leave Islam if he wishes to...but of course there are consequences for that in the afterlife.
however, if you mean the last:
it is like asking your government to have the freedom to steal, rob or kill without being prosecuted....so not very logical.

Your response above is what is not logical. There is no comparison between a person wanting to not be prosecuted for stealing, robbing or killing and someone wanting to exercise his religious freedom rights and not be penalized by government. I am not talking about the afterlife since it hasnt been established that there IS an afterlife. Im glad you support Muslims freedom to leave Islam if they want to without being prosecuted under medieval apostasy laws. Unfortunately most Islamic scholars do not support that right for Muslims. They would reply that forbidding apostasy and death for apostasy are necessary to deter people from leaving Islam. It would be interesting to watch a public debate between a more liberal scholar and a more conservative one about this subject.
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nurseken7
04-20-2020, 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
Liberal muslims claim "islam is peace" not conservatives or in Western terms "right-wing" muslims would not claim it is.

As for what you've heard there's a lot more nuance to that topic. There has been 1,400 years between now and Islam, if we were going on a witch-hunt like Christians for every apostate those would be documented. Very few of the Caliphs went that far. Even Omar al Khayyam who had agnostic views and criticized organized religion in his poetry wasn't persecuted.

And today, personally, I don't mind people leaving Islam. Islam is not a liberal religion, so if you're a Liberal and don't you belong in the religion and don't accept its ideology, well it's best to go elsewhere, become a Communist and starve to death I don't care.

Infact radical atheist ex-muslims, help to preach islam because their extreme views become our strawman in debates, etc.

So for you an ex Muslim can go become a communist and starve to death you don't care. It is that kind of attitude among Muslims which further destroys Islams credibility in its claim to be a good religion.
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CuriousonTruth
04-20-2020, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
So for you an ex Muslim can go become a communist and starve to death you don't care. It is that kind of attitude among Muslims which further destroys Islams credibility in its claim to be a good religion.
You didn't get the joke about communists starving themselves to death? I thought it's a popular joke in the US.

It's from that whenever communist atheists come to power they adopt policies that usually are to the detriment of its own population (Holodomor, Pol Pot, Mao, etc).
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soheil1
04-20-2020, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
So for you an ex Muslim can go become a communist and starve to death you don't care. It is that kind of attitude among Muslims which further destroys Islams credibility in its claim to be a good religion.
He is at worst a selfish person like others - nothing more.
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Junon
04-20-2020, 08:15 AM
Salaam

Originally Posted by nurseken7
Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that genuine religious liberty necessarily includes freedom to change religions no matter which religion you belong too.
So that's your religion. Can we unsubscribe to that?
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nurseken7
04-20-2020, 11:20 PM
as long as u dont violate any Muslim persons right
to leave Islam if he/she wants too.
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nurseken7
04-20-2020, 11:22 PM
See? it's that kind of attitude among Muslims needs to be publicized in the USA to show how wrong American liberal are who say Islam is all about peace and the only problems with Islam is a few fringe radicals
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CuriousonTruth
04-20-2020, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
See? it's that kind of attitude among Muslims needs to be publicized in the USA to show how wrong American liberal are who say Islam is all about peace and the only problems with Islam is a few fringe radicals
Lol ok, I am well aware how angry white people get when muslims think for their own interests and beliefs, instead of toeing the line of liberal agenda. That's why you hate conservative/nationalist leaders in muslim countries, because we don't obey you and we reject your vile culture.

And I don't know about american muslims, but keep using your threats and we'll keep throwing gays out of buildings.
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soheil1
04-20-2020, 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
See? it's that kind of attitude among Muslims needs to be publicized in the USA to show how wrong American liberal are who say Islam is all about peace and the only problems with Islam is a few fringe radicals
I think you are speaking to the radicals
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nurseken7
04-20-2020, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth
Lol ok, I am well aware how angry white people get when muslims think for their own interests and beliefs, instead of toeing the line of liberal agenda. That's why you hate conservative/nationalist leaders in muslim countries, because we don't obey you and we reject your vile culture.

And I don't know about american muslims, but keep using your threats and we'll keep throwing gays out of buildings.

Keep talking. Everything you say proves I'm right in what I say about Islam
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soheil1
04-20-2020, 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
See? it's that kind of attitude among Muslims needs to be publicized in the USA to show how wrong American liberal are who say Islam is all about peace and the only problems with Islam is a few fringe radicals
I think you are speaking to the radicals.
Reality is that most Muslims are not radicals.
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CuriousonTruth
04-21-2020, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
Keep talking. Everything you say proves I'm right in what I say about Islam
and what do you say about it? The Texts are already there, the history is there, nothing laymen can say whether it's libetard muslims, or extreme salafists say will change what's already set in stone.

It's hilarious that you europeans and americans think you can change the religion to your own liking as if it's your personal property. Look up the Crusades, see what our ancestors did to European invaders. Search Sultan Baibars and see what he did to Europeans in Antioch.

We aren't like Native Americans who will just roll over and die when you want it to be.
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soheil1
04-21-2020, 12:15 AM
Nurseken, go ask an scholar instead of debating here.
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greenhill
04-21-2020, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by nurseken7
Keep talking. Everything you say proves I'm right in what I say about Islam
Salaams.

You’ll find what you seek.


1) there is no compulsion in religion.
2) our duty is to invite others, the ‘hidayah’ is from Allah.
3) should one decide to leave islam, they should not incite provocation because ‘to you is your belief, to me is mine’.

But unfortunately, too many people take differing actions.

Case in point. To cut off hands if caught stealing. It is a preventive measure. It is the person residing on the judge’s seat that will make the rule good and fair or draconian.

I see in Malaysia we have a slight predicament. That we do not have facilities for abandoned babies. Officially opening these centres would give impression that the government allows this. But pretending it doesn’t exist also does not make sense.

Also, islam is NOT about democracy. It’s about serving Allah. And we do NOT make the rules. We try understand them and comply. We cannot pick and choose. Islam is perfect but the people are not. The people are the same, world over. It’s their faith that differentiates them.


:peace:
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