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seeker
02-09-2006, 08:07 PM
My concerns about the reaction of many Muslims worldwide is that it seems unrelated to what I believe were the problems Muslims had with the west in general.

My understanding was that our meddling in ME countries and our support of Israel was the root of problem. And that by withdrawing from these endeavors we could hope for a peaceful relationship with the Muslim world.

That made sense to me. I could accept that because I know I wouldn't want some foreigners coming to my country and meddling in our affairs. I can relate to that 100%.

But this issue is quite different. This seems as if Muslims not only want to restrict speech within the muslim world, but they want to restrict it for everyone all over the world or else.

I can't accept this. I was strongly against the war, and I'm against our sworn alliance with Israel. I can understand why so many would be upset over these things to the extent that they are.

So it appears that you not only want to get us to leave you alone, you want to tell us how to live. And in doing so, restrict our freedoms.

I can honestly tell you that this won't go over well in the west. Some people here will fight for money, some for power, and some for revenge. But if there is anything that we will all unite together and fight for, it's our freedoms.

So I have to ask, is it the general sentiment in the Muslim world that we should not have free speech.
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Ghazi
02-09-2006, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by seeker
My concerns about the reaction of many Muslims worldwide is that it seems unrelated to what I believe were the problems Muslims had with the west in general.

My understanding was that our meddling in ME countries and our support of Israel was the root of problem. And that by withdrawing from these endeavors we could hope for a peaceful relationship with the Muslim world.

That made sense to me. I could accept that because I know I wouldn't want some foreigners coming to my country and meddling in our affairs. I can relate to that 100%.

But this issue is quite different. This seems as if Muslims not only want to restrict speech within the muslim world, but they want to restrict it for everyone all over the world or else.

I can't accept this. I was strongly against the war, and I'm against our sworn alliance with Israel. I can understand why so many would be upset over these things to the extent that they are.

So it appears that you not only want to get us to leave you alone, you want to tell us how to live. And in doing so, restrict our freedoms.

I can honestly tell you that this won't go over well in the west. Some people here will fight for money, some for power, and some for revenge. But if there is anything that we will all unite together and fight for, it's our freedoms.

So I have to ask, is it the general sentiment in the Muslim world that we should not have free speech.
Salaam

Muslims believe in freedom of speech, as a british citizen I respect the cultures of this country and the people, but what I wont tolerate is people insulting, so the answer is we believe in freedom of speech as long as it's not insulting us.
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seeker
02-09-2006, 08:26 PM
Really????

That's not free speech then.

What do you suppose should happen to someone that insults you? Should they go to jail?
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Halima
02-09-2006, 08:36 PM
:sl:

Common sense tell us what freedom of speech is and what it isn't. We don't necessarily have to abide by the Quran or fatwa just to make sure that we aren't insulting anyone. There are boundaries to freedom of speech. No one can just go to a nun and tell her that she is being oppressed by wearing her hair covering. Common sense tells us how to approach someone even if we are enabled to use freedom of speech. The prime typical example-the cartoons. Muslims worldwide are protesting everywhere. Is this not freedom of speech? If we were secluded from freedom of speech we wouldn't have defended ourselves if the danish newspapers have published those cartoons. Yes, it made us enraged all over the world. I can certainly say at the point we didn't care if we can have freedom of speech or not. It was our Prophet they had ridiculed. The first thing that jumped in our minds was defense. We were offended by those cartoons, now we defend.



:w:
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Ghazi
02-09-2006, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by seeker
Really????

That's not free speech then.

What do you suppose should happen to someone that insults you? Should they go to jail?
Salaam

There should be laws put in place, and yes I think if someone says something insulting to a perticular religion, then the law should deal with them.
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Smok
02-09-2006, 08:45 PM
Salaam.

I believe in free speech. But I will not insult other religions because it hasn't any sense. I'm agains any censorship but I don't want to insult anyone.

Maa salama.
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seeker
02-09-2006, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

There should be laws put in place, and yes I think if someone says something insulting to a perticular religion, then the law should deal with them.
This is quite disturbing.

Having your own cultures guidelines to live by is one thing. But what you are saying is that you require everyone else to live by it.

I applaud peaceful protests and boycots. Those are the proper chanels to respond in. And I especially like the respons in Iran to solicit people to make Jewish cartoons. That's how it works. Tit for tat.

But to think that you have the right to hurt or lock someone up becaues they merely offended you with words is something that will never work in the western culture. Such an attack on our dearly held freedoms will unite the west in a way that hasn't been seen since WWII.
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Anette
02-09-2006, 09:33 PM
With every freedom come responsibilities. I think the debate in western country today about this fact is a good thing. Mass media has gone far beyond any given limits many times not only in this issue.

I do also believe that western countries are very found of the freedom to speech; they have fought for it a long time. To be able to say and express their thoughts. And as I see it is nothing wrong with this freedom as long as you use it with responsibility coming with this freedom.

I think if the Muslim world had gone out united in peace and demonstrated they soon had found sympathy around western countries for their sake among people in general. But the violence has made it very difficult. Because if you go out in sympathy against the lack of responsibility you at the same time would have to stand up for the violence coming from the demonstrations. That is the real shame about this issue.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-09-2006, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by seeker
But this issue is quite different. This seems as if Muslims not only want to restrict speech within the muslim world, but they want to restrict it for everyone all over the world or else.
Muslims don't want to restrict anyone. We protest against the blatant attack on a religious minority in europe because we believe that freedom of speech should be excericsed responsible and without inciting hatred towards others. All freedoms in the west are already restricted by law, by what is considered 'reasonable limits'.

Regards
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Caliphate
02-09-2006, 10:11 PM
First of all muslims are not those who kill, torture, oppress and steal from ther people in the world. The west is the mother of all crimes against muslims in the muslim world in particular. The west oppress our people, steal our ressources and occupy our lands. The west has done these crimes ever since they destroyed the islamic state of muslims. They occupied the islamic land of Palestine, the heart of muslims and they rape , kill, torture, oppress and even insult our great prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa salam) in the name of freedom of speech. This is something we never can accept, call it a freedom you love or worship we will destroy it oh disbelievers. Your freedoms are only corrupt and it only brings you to misery. Now you are doomed to destroy as you insult the best man in the world. Muhammed sallallahu alayhi wa salam. Muslims never occupy, terrorize or insult you in any matter. Muslims are those who are in fight all the time as they are attacked by your foolish weapons, political and military terrorism and oppression. Muslims suffer from the oppressions your corrupt goverments and leaders of the west make in the middle east and all over the muslim world. Oh disbelievers, now your time has come, either you choose to debate in a mature way instead of insulting our holy things in Islam.

Therefor I call to all western countries to be mature and intellectual, yes we accept you debate and critizise islam and muslims but we dont accept that you insult and attack us.

Be an adult and responsible to your acts. Do not hoild fast on some joke freedoms that not even children cant mention since its fake anyway.

Ma'salaama
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-09-2006, 10:17 PM
:sl: Caliphate,
I think its a little inappropriate to generalize in the way you did about the west and its freedoms; and Muslims do not intend to destroy anything either.

Nevertheless, I agree with your comment on being mature, especially in excericisng freedom of speech.

:w:
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czgibson
02-09-2006, 10:24 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Caliphate
This is something we never can accept, call it a freedom you love or worship we will destroy it oh disbelievers. Your freedoms are only corrupt and it only brings you to misery. Now you are doomed to destroy as you insult the best man in the world.
In partial answer to the question in the title of this thread, here's one Muslim who wants freedom of speech destroyed!

Muslims never occupy, terrorize or insult you in any matter.
You're right about occupation. I'm confused about the terrorism part. I think your whole post is an insult really, isn't it? Combined with aspects of a threat?

Oh disbelievers, now your time has come, either you choose to debate in a mature way instead of insulting our holy things in Islam.
Or....?

Therefor I call to all western countries to be mature and intellectual, yes we accept you debate and critizise islam and muslims but we dont accept that you insult and attack us.
Good. I quite agree.

There's no reason why we shouldn't all be able to live together on this planet in:

Peace
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Ken Nielsen
02-09-2006, 11:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

There should be laws put in place, and yes I think if someone says something insulting to a perticular religion, then the law should deal with them.

Man, the Jails are gonna be full.
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fredbear
02-09-2006, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Caliphate
Your freedoms are only corrupt and it only brings you to misery. Now you are doomed to destroy as you insult the best man in the world. Muhammed sallallahu alayhi wa salam. Muslims never occupy, terrorize or insult you in any matter.
And yet you just did. My freedoms are dear to me, as dear as your prophet is to you. Note, however, that I do not feel you must now die for insulting me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Caliphate
Oh disbelievers, now your time has come, either you choose to debate in a mature way instead of insulting our holy things in Islam.
This is what you call mature debate? Interesting.

format_quote Originally Posted by Caliphate
Therefor I call to all western countries to be mature and intellectual, yes we accept you debate and critizise islam and muslims but we dont accept that you insult and attack us.
The attitude of some Muslims is sometimes quite perplexing to us western infidels. We sometimes have no idea why you react the way you do. Most of us find something as small and insignificant as a cartoon to be fairly innocuous. We find it surprising that it engenders so much anger. Riots and embassy burnings seem to me, and to others like me, to be a disproportionate response. What I am trying to say is that I have no idea what will send some Muslims into a muderous rage. How am I to know beforehand? If a cartoon is justification for embassy burning (an act of war, by the way), maybe I've already said something that warrants my death.



format_quote Originally Posted by Caliphate
Be an adult and responsible to your acts. Do not hoild fast on some joke freedoms that not even children cant mention since its fake anyway.

Ma'salaama
I'd like for you to understand that it appears to be child-like to respond violently to percieved injustices or insults. If you tell a child something he doesn't want to hear, he will often become uncontrollably violent. But as the child matures, he becomes better at self-restraint, and learns to deal with criticims in ways other than temper tantrums. That is how rioting Muslims appear to many western observers. Grown adults behaving like children, in violent temper tantrums.

Wasalaam
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-09-2006, 11:27 PM
Hi fredbear and welcome to Load-Islam forums!

Please see my previous posts for comments on the Muslim reaction and the cartoons.
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north_malaysian
02-10-2006, 01:51 AM
Free speech aimed for justice is ok.
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abdul Majid
02-10-2006, 03:11 AM
Uhh Mr Speeker (get It Lol)

There Is Only One God, And There Is Proof....you Can Say What You Want, But Your Toungue Will Testify Against You..allah(swt) Knows Everything In The Heavens And Earth And In Between...we As A Religion , Not Race, Donot Portray Any Prophet Or Say Anything Wrong About Them, It Is Wrong, But Then Again Look Whos Telling Us Its Ok, People Who Think Nudity, Drinking, Gambling, Sex, Murdering, Raping, Killing And More, Is Ok!! We Disagree With These People Becuase This Is The Right Way
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fredbear
02-10-2006, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
There Is Only One God, And There Is Proof
If this were true, there's be a lot less disagreement about the nature of God. In reality, there is no proof. That's why you have 'faith'. Faith takes the place of proof.

format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
....you Can Say What You Want, But Your Toungue Will Testify Against You..
If I said evereything I wanted to here, people would want to kill me. Literally.

format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
allah(swt) Knows Everything In The Heavens And Earth And In Between...
And presumably you have proof for this also.

format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
we As A Religion , Not Race, Donot Portray Any Prophet Or Say Anything Wrong About Them, It Is Wrong,
Why? Is your faith so fragile that it cannot withstand some mild criticism?

format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
But Then Again Look Whos Telling Us Its Ok, People Who Think Nudity, Drinking, Gambling, Sex, Murdering, Raping, Killing And More, Is Ok!! We Disagree With These People Becuase This Is The Right Way
Nudity is ok, it is how God made us, right? Why is it so wrong if it is natural?

Gambling doesn't turn my crank personally, but who am I to judge how some idiot chooses to throw their money away?

Sex is, again, a perfectly natural part of being human. To deny your sexuality is to deny a large part of your humanity. Why would God make such a fundamental aspect of our nature wrong?

Murdering? Here's a little litmus test I like to use. If an action infringes on someone else's person or property, it is probably not a wise thing to do. Murder definately falls under that category. Mass murder is particularly appauling. Think London and Madrid bombings.

Rape? See above.

Killing? See above. Killing anyone, for any reason, at any time, is wrong, in my book. Some Muslims seem to disagree. I wouldn't want to be Salman Rushdie. Or one of his translators.

Have I offended anyone?
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abdul Majid
02-10-2006, 03:54 AM
I Not Gonna Have A Debate With You Fred, But If You Think Nudity And Sex Are Ok Openly..then Let Your Kids Watch You Do It....you See...

Now About God... Lemme Ask You Something Did You Create Your Self, Or Do You Beleive In The Biggg Bbbaaannngggg.....then Poof Everything Came In To Play Tell Me Fred..
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-10-2006, 04:27 AM
Please - we are not having a discussion about the existence of God in this thread. There are already discussions on that topic in the comparative religion section.

Nudity is ok, it is how God made us, right? Why is it so wrong if it is natural?
I hope you are aware that in most western countries it is a criminal offence to appear nude in public. Freedom of expression has reasonable limits in all societies.
Why? Is your faith so fragile that it cannot withstand some mild criticism?
The offence that such caricatures cause has nothing to do with criticising the religion. I welcome criticism and intellectual debate. This, however, is about insulting and inciting hatred towards a visible minority - something that is unacceptable.

Regards
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abdul Majid
02-10-2006, 04:29 AM
Thank You Brother... Obviously Nudity And Sex Openly Is Haram...
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fredbear
02-10-2006, 06:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I hope you are aware that in most western countries it is a criminal offence to appear nude in public. Freedom of expression has reasonable limits in all societies.
I'll respond to you on this point as I value your opinion and feel that unfortunately some other contributors to this thread have a somewhat less than adequate grasp of the concept of rational discourse.

Public nudity is a societal taboo, this is true. I can see no good, rational arguments to support such attitudes, but I appear to be in a minority. I grew up in a country where public nudity, particularly at the beach, was not seen as particularly offensive. If people found such things offensive, they didn't go to those particular beaches. Nobody, that I could see, was harmed in any way.

What could be argued is that real harm is done to children by indoctrination in the belief that the human body is something shameful. But that is another discussion. My point is that, while I don't agree with everything that my society expects, I am willing to come to some compromise. And hopefully attitudes that don't serve any real purpose but to infringe on personal liberties will be challenged and eventually changed. That is the mark of a dynamic, progressive society. I do not see the same coming from Islamic cultures. Centuries ago, it was the Islamic world that was bringing fresh new ideas to the rest of the planet. Sadly this does not seem to be the case, and reactionary and repressive societies are a result.

Understand that what I say might seem startlingly absolute, but that is not the intent. I enjoy having my views challenged. I have no hope of changing anyone's point of view, just the hope that some kind of mutual understanding can take place, for I am troubled by my lack of understanding of the Muslim world view.
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seeker
02-10-2006, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdul Majid
Now About God... Lemme Ask You Something Did You Create Your Self, Or Do You Beleive In The Biggg Bbbaaannngggg.....then Poof Everything Came In To Play Tell Me Fred..
Well, if I may answer.

I don't know. But I do know one thing, it would be a betrayal of God for me to blindly accept what you, another human being, says about Him.

You must understand, that if I'm rejecting your beliefs, it isn't God I'm rejecting....it's you I'm rejecting. This goes for Jews, Christians, and Muslims and whoever else is so proud of themselves that they think they can speak for and about God.

My relationship with God is my own business. I won't betray God by following what some other human beings say about him.

Because what it comes right down to it, when you are professing your faith in Islam, it isn't Allah Himself you're professing your faith in, it's the people that have told you about Allah that you are trusting to be right.

I don't trust anyone that much.
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Z
02-10-2006, 04:38 PM
Salaam.

It's about how the freedom is used that matters. Not whether we believe in it or not.

Example. Your wife/girlfriend/gay-buddy asks you does their behind look big in a certain outfit. Evidently it does. But what would you do? Exercise your freedom of speech and tell them it does, and hurt their feelings? Or say it doesn't? Common sense tells me you wouldn't.

It was an attack on the Muslims, using the freedom of speech bull**** line to say it wasn't.
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mizan_aliashraf
02-10-2006, 04:41 PM
Hang on a minute.
I thought this thread was about free speech?
About free speech. Muslims, and everyone else for that matter, have been created by God. He gave them free will in that they can follow what they want, do what they want and live how they want. There have been revelations sent down by God via the prophets and these tell us how to live our lives in a way that God is pleased with. We have the right to have freedom of speech so long as it does not insult other religions. Even i as a muslim cannot insult someone who follows another religion. Even though may not agree with the views of that religion i cannot insult and ridicule it. That is what the danish newspapers did, and that is why they got such a violent reaction
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-10-2006, 04:43 PM
Hi fredbear,
Thanks for your post.
format_quote Originally Posted by fredbear
Understand that what I say might seem startlingly absolute, but that is not the intent. I enjoy having my views challenged. I have no hope of changing anyone's point of view, just the hope that some kind of mutual understanding can take place, for I am troubled by my lack of understanding of the Muslim world view.
I agree that we need to build understanding, and I look forward to having more discussions with you in the future. :)
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Ghazi
02-10-2006, 04:44 PM
Salaam

Freedom of Speech= " I CAN SAY WHAT I WANT" this is the attitude people have taken, so when you offend someone by your words don't be suprised if they react.
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mizan_aliashraf
02-10-2006, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

Freedom of Speech= " I CAN SAY WHAT I WANT" this is the attitude people have taken, so when you offend someone by your words don't be suprised if they react.

Very true, these days the laws of freedom of speech have meant that people use it whenever they say something harmful or insulting
Wassalam
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czgibson
02-10-2006, 05:03 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
Even i as a muslim cannot insult someone who follows another religion. Even though may not agree with the views of that religion i cannot insult and ridicule it.
But you appear to have given yourself the right to insult those of all religions other than Islam, as well as those of none with many of your comments on other threads about "dirty filthy kuffars" and "filthy scum".

Peace
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mizan_aliashraf
02-10-2006, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


But you appear to have given yourself the right to insult those of all religions other than Islam, as well as those of none with many of your comments on other threads about "dirty filthy kuffars" and "filthy scum".

Peace

Peace to you
This is not how i really am and it was done out of anger
I do apologise if i have offended anyone, but understand that i am still very deeply offended.
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czgibson
02-10-2006, 05:14 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
Peace to you
This is not how i really am and it was done out of anger
I do apologise if i have offended anyone, but understand that i am still very deeply offended.
You have every right to feel offended.

Much respect for your apology. :thumbs_up

Peace
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fredbear
02-10-2006, 05:31 PM
I too applaud the aplology, yet remain concerned that this festering hate underpins much of what is done in the name if Islam. Non-violent muslims should, in my opinion, be much more vocal in their condemnation of violence and incitement to violence that seems to be so prevalent amongst people of Islamic faith.
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Sis786
02-10-2006, 05:32 PM
Freedom of Speech is something that has to be used carefully! Some might debate that if it is Ok to say anything about anyone can i stand in the street and say

"I LOVE TERROISM AND I THINK ITS CORRECT AND ALL THE NON-MUSLIMS SHOULD DIE AND THEN BURN IN HELL"

Huh!:?

Obviously NOT!

Now Freedom of Speech SHOULD be a given right to those that will exercie it correctly! What i mean is that THESE pictures werent printed by some back street firm that sent a couple of leaflets out. NO it was a National paper! Surely the Danes have something better to write about! :?
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Smok
02-10-2006, 06:51 PM
These wrds will be "crying for violence" forbiden by law in Europe.
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fredbear
02-10-2006, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sis786
Freedom of Speech is something that has to be used carefully! Some might debate that if it is Ok to say anything about anyone can i stand in the street and say

"I LOVE TERROISM AND I THINK ITS CORRECT AND ALL THE NON-MUSLIMS SHOULD DIE AND THEN BURN IN HELL"

Huh!:?

Obviously NOT!
Not so 'obviously not'. Freedom of speach means exactly that. The freedom to say whatever is on your mind. You are not free to cause physical harm to another person or their property. If I want to proclaim the nature of your faith on the streetcorner, even if it advocates violence, I should be free to do so. And that's precicely what I see going on in this forum. There are countless justifications for acts of violence here. It is as it should be.

That being said, if I am calling for acts of violence to be comitted, I should expect some form of law enforcement surveilance. Not because of what I said, but because what I said is an indication of what I might do.

In general, Muslims don't appear to understand the concept of free speech. It's not free if it has to be adjusted to comply with the mores of a specific group. I recommend you read Voltaire: "I may not like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
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seeker
02-10-2006, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mizan_aliashraf
Peace to you
This is not how i really am and it was done out of anger
I do apologise if i have offended anyone, but understand that i am still very deeply offended.
Understandably.

And I support your right to call anyone kufar or scum all you like. Many people probably deserve it. I may be offended, but I don't have the right to not be.

Perhaps you can start a Danish Defamation Websight.

The only think I take issue with is a violent response to speech.
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Sis786
02-13-2006, 09:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fredbear
Not so 'obviously not'. Freedom of speach means exactly that. The freedom to say whatever is on your mind. You are not free to cause physical harm to another person or their property. If I want to proclaim the nature of your faith on the streetcorner, even if it advocates violence, I should be free to do so. And that's precicely what I see going on in this forum. There are countless justifications for acts of violence here. It is as it should be.

That being said, if I am calling for acts of violence to be comitted, I should expect some form of law enforcement surveilance. Not because of what I said, but because what I said is an indication of what I might do.

In general, Muslims don't appear to understand the concept of free speech. It's not free if it has to be adjusted to comply with the mores of a specific group. I recommend you read Voltaire: "I may not like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
I suppose if this is the case then what we will see happening is MORE RACISM, MORE HATE, INCITING VIOLENCE AND A LACK OF RESPECT!!! Brill World Cant Wait!!!:offended:
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Muezzin
02-13-2006, 09:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Smok
Salaam.

I believe in free speech. But I will not insult other religions because it hasn't any sense. I'm agains any censorship but I don't want to insult anyone.

Maa salama.
I agree.

I think freedom of speech should be used responsibly, because like it or not, there are certain people who will react violently. While I do not condone the violence, I feel it can be easily avoided by using freedom of speech in a responsible manner.

Like Spidey's Uncle Ben said: 'With great power comes great responsibility' ;)
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HeiGou
02-13-2006, 10:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sis786
I suppose if this is the case then what we will see happening is MORE RACISM, MORE HATE, INCITING VIOLENCE AND A LACK OF RESPECT!!! Brill World Cant Wait!!!:offended:
Except the more that people accept the freedom of speech, the less racism, hate, violence and lack of respect there is. It is an irony. But once everyone accepts the principle that we can all say what we like, we move beyond the world of prejudice and bigotry. When the government lays down laws that tell people what they can or cannot say, they create a link between believers (of whatever sort) and power. Basically, if the government persecutes people for their beliefs, then it is important that every Belief seizes power and keeps it. This embitters the power struggle. It means that people murder to get into, and stay, in power. It means that dissenters are persecuted as are critics. Once there is no need for Believers to hold power (because they are tolerated) and they come to accept that the proper way to prove Truth is peacefully, the bitterness and hatred disappears.

You can see this anywhere you like. When was the last time anyone was murdered for their beliefs in the West? Theo van Gogh perhaps - but that is the exception that proves the rule. Someone did not accept his right to speak his mind. Find me a country that has and enforces blasphemy laws and I will show you a country full of persecution and injustice.
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HeiGou
02-13-2006, 10:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I agree.

I think freedom of speech should be used responsibly, because like it or not, there are certain people who will react violently. While I do not condone the violence, I feel it can be easily avoided by using freedom of speech in a responsible manner.

Like Spidey's Uncle Ben said: 'With great power comes great responsibility' ;)
I believe that freedom of speech should be used responsibly because it can hurt people's deeply held feelings. But it must not be "not used" because of threats of violence. People who kill must not be appeased but arrested. People who makes threats to kill should be in jail. They must not be allowed to win. If you go down the path of restricting what you say because of threats of violence, there is an incentive to use threats of violence to get your ends. Anyone can threaten to kill someone. If you let one group do it, another will want to as well. Then everyone will be doing it and there will be no freedom left. You have to draw the line somewhere.
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Muezzin
02-13-2006, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I believe that freedom of speech should be used responsibly because it can hurt people's deeply held feelings. But it must not be "not used" because of threats of violence. People who kill must not be appeased but arrested. People who makes threats to kill should be in jail. They must not be allowed to win. If you go down the path of restricting what you say because of threats of violence, there is an incentive to use threats of violence to get your ends. Anyone can threaten to kill someone. If you let one group do it, another will want to as well. Then everyone will be doing it and there will be no freedom left. You have to draw the line somewhere.
True.

It should still be used responsibly in a way which does not offend people's deeply held beliefs, since any such offence, while being morally wrong, may also give rise to violence.

I don't mean people should cave in to threats of violence, but it is obviously worth bearing in mind.
Reply

Ibrar
02-13-2006, 03:49 PM
does Free speech mean you can do anything?
No there is a limit for everything.
you cannot insult some one.
Reply

HeiGou
02-13-2006, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ibrar
does Free speech mean you can do anything?
No there is a limit for everything.
you cannot insult some one.
I think you should not insult someone. It is rude. But why can't you?

I think a lot of things ought to be in the domain of morality and good character. Not in the realm of the law. Tolerance means trying to get along with people. We should all try to do that.
Reply

Sis786
02-13-2006, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I think you should not insult someone. It is rude. But why can't you?

I think a lot of things ought to be in the domain of morality and good character. Not in the realm of the law. Tolerance means trying to get along with people. We should all try to do that.
Agreed, Free speech shouldnt be used as a tool that allows people to attack religious groups or people and spread PURE racism!
Reply

knuckles
02-13-2006, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sis786
Agreed, Free speech shouldnt be used as a tool that allows people to attack religious groups or people and spread PURE racism!
You mean like Ahmadinejad calling for Death to America, Death to Israel? Or how about the Iranian newspaper having the contest for the Holocaust cartoons? It shouldn't be used for those purposes right?
Reply

Sis786
02-13-2006, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by knuckles
You mean like Ahmadinejad calling for Death to America, Death to Israel? Or how about the Iranian newspaper having the contest for the Holocaust cartoons? It shouldn't be used for those purposes right?
Yeah exactly! DOnt get me wrong those that do evil deserve it back But i dont agree with those comments!!
Reply

knuckles
02-13-2006, 05:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sis786
Yeah exactly! DOnt get me wrong those that do evil deserve it back But i dont agree with those comments!!
But everything can be considered an attack on people. My lifestyle as a heterosexual male could be considered an attack on homosexuals and vice versa. A Christian disregarding the prophet Muhammed as a false prophet could be an attack against you so as a Muslim's views on Jesus being the son of God and not just a prophet an attack. Where do you draw the line? The minute any of us open our mouth we offend someone.
Reply

simply4allah
04-26-2006, 12:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by knuckles
But everything can be considered an attack on people. My lifestyle as a heterosexual male could be considered an attack on homosexuals and vice versa. A Christian disregarding the prophet Muhammed as a false prophet could be an attack against you so as a Muslim's views on Jesus being the son of God and not just a prophet an attack. Where do you draw the line? The minute any of us open our mouth we offend someone.
thats why we need to live the way we choose and let others do the same:)
Reply

hanifi
04-26-2006, 01:08 AM
Peace to all Believers and Dis-believers.

The line is drawn when people start lying and putting false alligations on each other. Islamic Shari'a forbids to lie or to offend the kuffar in a way that will take away them from approaching Islam with an open mind. Every one has their free will to do what ever they want. Believers have chosen a path and the dis-believers have chosen their path.
Free speech is allowed as long as it does'nt become a nusance or a means of mocking or propogating lies against Islam.
Free speech is tolerated in Islam NOT lies or falsehhod or mockery.
Reply

mirage41
04-26-2006, 01:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by hanifi
Peace to all Believers and Dis-believers.

The line is drawn when people start lying and putting false alligations on each other. Islamic Shari'a forbids to lie or to offend the kuffar in a way that will take away them from approaching Islam with an open mind. Every one has their free will to do what ever they want. Believers have chosen a path and the dis-believers have chosen their path.
Free speech is allowed as long as it does'nt become a nusance or a means of mocking or propogating lies against Islam.
Free speech is tolerated in Islam NOT lies or falsehhod or mockery.

So who is the judge of lies and mockery? Christians might think that Islam is "lies and mockery", so will you stop being muslim now?
Reply

F.Y.
04-26-2006, 01:37 AM
Hi

Have you heard the saying "Your right to hit me stops right where your hand touches my skin" - its something like that anyway. A similar thing could be considered for free speech. Meaning that if what you are about to say would cause considerable grief - and if you dont have a kind way to tell someone something - dont say it at all.

Thats what i think. Peace to all.
Reply

hanifi
04-26-2006, 01:51 AM
:sl:

"Ad-dunya sijnul mu'mini wa jannatul kaafiri."

"The world is prison for the believers and paradise for the disbelievers."

Reporter: Hadhrat Abu Hurairah (r)

Source: Sahih Muslim, Vol. 4, #7058

Note: Prison is not a place where people want to live or end up at. The mere existence of prison has a significant deterrent value. Also once a person is a priosoner, it is a human tendency to try to become free. Prisoners want to be free, to return to their homes and to the society where they originally belonged. This sense of belonging is important for a believer. To be a believer in Islam means understanding that one's destination is Paradise; that is where everyone belongs. Paradise is designed and prepared for successful human beings; it is awaiting them. When a person develops that awareness and conviction, then this ephemeral worldly life to him appears as nothing short of a prison from which he seeks freedom and wants to reach his destination. If he has to spend some time in this prison, he hardly enjoys it; the urge of reaching his ultimate destination overshadows his other desires. The opposite is true about people who do not believe. They treat this world as their paradise. To them, nothing awaits them beyond this life. Therefore, they indulge themselves to the extent that they become entrapped.

This is where a Muslim's view point is on "Freedom"
SubhanAllah, Beautiful, is'nt it?
We are proud that we are not free in this world - Not free in the sense that every action and thought has moral constraints. We are slaves to Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'laa. This is our Theology and Ideology. If you have a problem with it then you are responsible for what you believe. Remember a painful punishment is waiting those who disbelieve. The warning has already been sent out and the word has spread. So use your "Free Will" to choose the path you want.
Good Luck InshaAllah. :thumbs_up
Reply

simply4allah
04-26-2006, 01:52 AM
There is freedom of speech in the Quran.

7:180
And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.

28:55
And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say: "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."

25:63
And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the Earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they Say: "Peace."

33:48
And do not obey the rejecters and the hypocrites, and ignore their insults, and put your trust in God; God suffices as an advocate.

10:65
And do not be saddened by their speech, for all glory is to God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.

If you believe that someone is insulting you, your religion, our your God: Ignore them and wish for peace with them. And don't be saddened by their insults. These are the advices that the Quran gives.

The question is: All the these people burning buildings and flags, threatning to kill and beating others up etc. Are they following the quran, our (ab)using it for their desires?

The answer should be obvious.
:)
Reply

cool_jannah
04-26-2006, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by simply4allah
There is freedom of speech in the Quran.

7:180
And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.

28:55
And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say: "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."

25:63
And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the Earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they Say: "Peace."

33:48
And do not obey the rejecters and the hypocrites, and ignore their insults, and put your trust in God; God suffices as an advocate.

10:65
And do not be saddened by their speech, for all glory is to God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.

If you believe that someone is insulting you, your religion, our your God: Ignore them and wish for peace with them. And don't be saddened by their insults. These are the advices that the Quran gives.

The question is: All the these people burning buildings and flags, threatning to kill and beating others up etc. Are they following the quran, our (ab)using it for their desires?

The answer should be obvious.:)
MashaAllah!
Yea only if the Muslims followed the true Shari'a!
Reply

simply4allah
04-26-2006, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah
MashaAllah!
Yea only if the Muslims followed the true Shari'a!
I agree.
Reply

x Maz x
04-26-2006, 03:15 PM
Everyone is entitled to 'freedom of speach' ...with limits WalaykumAsalaam x
Reply

Islamic_Always
04-26-2006, 03:21 PM
Assalaam o alikum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakathu
Look at denmarks free spech! ande how they deal with it (subhaan allah)

I live in Denmark! and the hole thing about our beloved prophet Muhammad Salla Allahu Alayhl wa Sallam is far from over! every singel day one can read in danish news paper there war on islam & Muslim below i urge you to read whats been said about us as muslims and about Rasul Allah salla allahu Alayhl wa sallam

Some Truth on the danish political party DPP Danish people party and a
support team to prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen of Denmark

Let me start by saying i am a muslim converted to islam (Alhamdulillah)
trew out the years islam and the muslim have been victims of hate from
the vest and beyond!" many anti muslim haters, aswell anti muslim writers
like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji, & Salman Rushdie, as well so called
islamic expert Like a man such as Daniel Pipes, and Theo Van Gogh, who
all have gone out of there way to lie false on Islam and the muslim trew
out the world.Now danish Jyllands posten newspaper in the name of free
press tell us we danish ppl and ppl outside of denmark have to get youse
to funny pictures according to them of driffent religions.But in this
case, and only in this case, it have to do with the muslim..Nore do we
see cartoons hatefull pictures made of the christians ore the jews
because of respect towords there feelings.I now youse my VOICE to let you
know of some info about in this case The party in denmark called DPP..Not
every danish man/woman support the drawings on Rasul allah saws.But the
hate towords the muslim for the last 10 years have been out of order..and
like i say Enough is Enough..How come a muslim is fanatic according to
others when they express themeself i am here letting you all know the
TRUTH..To all my muslim friends let the world know what you fell express
yourself according to The Quran & the sunnah and ackt likewise

1.Mogens Camre form the party DPP.Who many times have express his
anti-islamic rhetoric thougts like.Muslim only talk nice to people in
order to make us trust them,for in the end the muslim will kill us.
Mogens Camre E-mail at the Eu Parlamentet is mcamre@europarl.eu.int

2.Kristian Thulsen Dahl from this party DPP. Says that islam is the
biggest threat to the world and a threat to the western world.It eats us
up from inside and the struktur of ours.
Kristian Thulsen Dahl E-mail is dfkrtd@ft.dk

3.Kenneth Kristensen is mamber of the danish party DPP.He have express
that in his eys danish convert to islam is a BIG threat.More then a born
muslim.So he would much like to could kick born danish people out of
denmark because of there choice to islam.Also one can read on his parivat
hompage that he is against a muslim graveyard
Kenneth Kristensen E-mail is kenneth.k@dfu-nettet.dk

4.Louise Frevert who is a member of the danish party DPP and is a x-porno
star her in denmark have said about muslim on her web-page.Muslim is like
cancer it has to be removed.And muslim have been brain wash for over a
1000 years now.Its is said in the danish press that it was not her own
words but the words of her web-master..all tho the same day danish news
got hold of the story she had those strong feelings towords muslim in
denmark and first not deny her hard feelings like islam and muslim was
like cancer.On her privat home page she had a link called artikel now one
had the nerve to print.Her she write her thouhts on muslim.Also we read
in the news her in denmark as well heard in the news Miss Louise Frevert
send sms around to boycot muslim shops..because the islamic world have
done the same with stuff from denmark Miss Louise frevert E-mail is
louise.frevert@ft.dk

Jesper langballe from the party DPP.Says on islam we have to fight islam
and the Hijab like we fight against Hitler..This man is a priest and a
political man.He have express his hard feelings on muslim in denmark for
many years now he also said once that peopels rights is somthing the
devil have made up Jesper langballe E-mail is dfjela@ft.dk

Pia Kjærsgaard The founder of (DPP) have express daily har hate towords
muslims in denmark..he week news edition normily have some kind of
anti-islamic thoughts.She once said in denmark there is no room for Allah
Ore Muhammad.She have also many times espress her hate towards the Hijab
of the muslim women to ban it..She have also express to ban the group
Hizb ut Tahrir for some years now.Everything that have to do with islam
Pia kjærsgaard calls absurd

Alex Ahrendtsen from the party (DPP) Says abput the Quran that every
danish man/women should have it on thre night tabel like the book (mein
kampf) (My Fight) because Alex says it is his finest job as a tru
christian to tell the truth on islam.This man is very redikal anti-muslim
fanatic like the rest of the party (Dpp) many lies have been writte about
the Quran from Mr Alex himself.Some things said to driffent danisk news
paper from Mr Alex (muslim have put out holy war on the west,and the get
to many children) (the muhammadan quran says to be violent) (the quran
teach to kill all jews & Christian) (one cant say a mosque is a house of
peace like a church) (Only peopel born in denmark danes should get
help,not the muslims) (if denmark gives the right to build a mosque in
denmark its like a war on every christians) (the fight on islam is a
christian fight as well as a political one) the list goes on and one
E.mail to Mr Alex Ahrendtsen is alex@ahrendtsen.dk & aahr@odense.dk

Niels Erik søndergård member of the party (DPP) he have written alot
about the quran like his fellow friend Alex Ahrendtsen many lies on
muslim..Even he writes in the news paper that it is really bad for
denmark and the west muslim get more children then what defind normal.
His E-mail is n.e.s@mail.tele.dk

Martin Henriksen form the party (DPP) say on muslims
Martin Henriksen, however, has also
been criticised for having a website that is equally
anti-Muslim.

'From its beginning, Islam has been a terrorist
movement,' Henriksen stated on his website, warning
against letting Muslims run for office in parliament
and municipal councils.

'It's well known that Islam is lying low, well-knowing
that no Islamic group or state has the military power
it takes to conquer us. The goal we know, the method
is to quietly take over and infiltrate our democratic
institutions,' Henriksen said on his website.

Danish converts to Islam get their share of the blame
as 'moral criminals'.

'These young Danes, who turn their backs on their
heritage and thereby all of us, are committing an
indescribable moral crime,' the website stated.

The website was discussed in a DF parliamentary group
meeting last Thursday, where Henriksen said he had
received full backing from his fellow party members.

'It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that an MP
from the Danish People's Party is critical of Islam.
It's a part of the party's policy, so I'm not removing
anything from my website,' Henriksen told national
broadcaster DR.
His E-mail is martin.henriksen@ft.dk

The new Children book written in danish by Kåre Bluitgen about The Nobel
Prophet Muhammad Ibn Abdullah saws) is selling good at the moment in
denmark.In the book there are pictures of rasul allah saws not good once
but very bad,and they try and make muhammad saws look like a evil
man..some danish imams says about the book that this writter Kåre
Bluitgen made on muhammad saws is like the devil would describe
himself...
In denmark there are book shops with good books on Rasul Allah saws and
even last year a new good book on muhammad saws came out written by a
danish muslim..But peopel overlook that.But now in the holy name of free
press when a book comes out in order to provoke muslim and islam its a
bestseller.

Some Danish politcian like the Party called Free Denmark who is a team that
only have a agenda to spred lies about islam to every dane!

her are some words of this party called (free Denmark)

Words of the head master of the party Michael Ellegaard (Boycot every shop
in denmark like some islamic contrys boycot us.Dondt by the pizza muslims
make nore shop in there shops everywhere in denmark.Boycot oil from islamic
contrys and dondt travel to muhammadan contrys boycot air planes to islamic
contrys.Go in the street and tell what islam is really about.Give islams
prophet the finger aswell as the muslim her..)

in a respond to me..i had a dialog with this man here is what he wrote to
me.

(where the smells of pig there must be a muslim & islam)

to abdallah Andersen i dondt whant to her from your stupid mother father
sister ore brother because you all smell like ****.so you and your family
can go elswere and get the hell out of denmark i hate you muslim so
much.you all smell like ****.

This man dondt know i converted to islam years back..so denmark is my home
aswell contry..This is not the first time muslim her get these letters
telling us to get the hell out of denmark..some imams at the moment get
threat letteres send to them and the local news papers in denmark write all
kind of stuff about them

This party called free denmark i call almost a nazi org also have statement
on ther web-site where on member says about the Holy Quran its like toilet
paper

this past sunday the 12/2 this man Michael Ellegaard march forth with a man
called Moses Hansen who have his own aganda against muslim called (muhammad
is dead,jesus lives) he calls the prophet muhammad the worst thing like the
most evil man ever........a pædofile.. a woman beater....a killer...islam
is the religion of satan..and so forth

the web-site www.fritdk.dk is written in danish.....

This man Michael Ellegaard have yoused himself violent mesure once, as he> cut a young mans face with a knife in a public garden her in denmark..he
lies alomst everyday about islam muslim & muhammad saws.

This past week we saw in denmark a muslim grave yeard was destroy, stones
and wood was broken..who left some muslim heart broken..ofcause


Now the danish news papers write that the danes her in a pool they
made..says that they dondt really enymore have respect for muslims..so the
tone is hard everyday in the media...

Muslims a threat to Danish Religion





Minister of Social Affairs Karen Jespersen: "We should have listened to Per Madsen…"


An opinion poll conducted by Sonar shows that Danes are becoming increasingly opposed to Islam. 56% of Danes consider the roughly 130,000 Muslims in Denmark as "a threat to the Danish religion and culture" (Source: Jyllands-Posten, 26.9.) A similar Sonar-Poll conducted in 1997 put the figure at 46%. The greatest resistance to Islam is to be found among the voters of the Danish People's Party (Dansk Folkeparti), where the figure is a predictable 94%.


Another Sonar-inquiry shows, that 48% would "react negatively" if a Muslim woman, wearing a headscarf, were to work the checkout at the supermarket (source: Jyllands-Posten, 30.9.).


A third Sonar-inquiry shows, that 41% of Danes want refugee- and immigration policy put to the people in a referendum (source: Jyllands-Posten, 3.10.). Among Danish People's Party voters, 88% are in favour of a referendum.


Jørgen Bæk Simonsen , leader of the Carsten Niebuhr Institute at Copenhagen University, sees a growing cultural racism in Denmark: "For more than ten years I have been travelling the length and breadth of the country, holding talks on Muslims and Islam and for the most part I have never experienced any actual racist attitude in Denmark. On the other hand, I do experience a form of cultural racism, where the negative attitude to Muslims is "packed in" in politically correct attitudes, e.g. the position of women in society. And this attitude is obviously, that Islamic culture is inferior to Danish culture. But this is caused to a large degree by the fact that the Danes cannot or will not hear what Muslims are saying." (Jyllands-Posten, 26.9.)


Minister of social affairs Karen Jespersen is probably a perfect example of this "not actually racist", but "culturally racist" attitude, draped in the mantle of politically correct opinions and beliefs: "It is a big mistake to view the cultural differences as something symbolic, on a par with our "roast pork" and "Christmas Day". For many immigrants, it's a question of completely different norms, not least in attitudes towards women. It simply won't do: If immigrants want to remain in this country, then they have to be part of Danish society. This does not mean that they have to cast aside all of their culture, but basically they have to learn to function under the terms of the Danish society." (B.T., 22,10.) Karen Jespersen continues: "We must likewise go on the offensive against the extremely intolerant attitude some immigrants display towards Danes. For example, hassling girls that wear oversized trousers, or boys that dress differently than they do themselves. In a worst-case scenario, it could end with gangs of young immigrants terrorising a local community. I have unfortunately myself experienced a very prejudicial attitude towards Danes. This could result in very dangerous and heavy-handed conflicts, because of course; Danes will not accept this in the long run (…) It was a major betrayal of young immigrants, that the Danish society quietly accepted such reprehensible practices as arranged marriages and forced marriages. From the Danish point of view, many saw it as a "cultural peculiarity" which immigrants should be allowed to practice. Instead of going on the offensive against these misogynist attitudes."


In the same interview, the minister of social affairs maintains that "We should have listened to Per Madsen" Ishøj's Social Democratic Lord Mayor (Ishøj is a satellite town to Copenhagen). "He drew attention to these problems at a very early stage -- and was very unpopular. But he was proved to be more right than we were prepared to give him credit for at the time."


This Per Madsen, who Karin Jespersen is now bringing in from the cold, is the same individual who in The Danish Society's (Danske Forenings) member's journal, amongst other things, expressed the view that "Muslims are still living in the middle ages, with an oppression of women and female culture which is unheard of in this country. Women are bought and sold as if they were cattle, and women are beaten and mistreated" (Danskeren [The Dane] no.1, 1989, p.3).


The Social Democratic leadership have certainly shifted position in the course of the last ten years. Right into the arms of The Danish Society's stereotypical image of foreigners as the enemy -- even though the Social Minister still makes a mild effort to make it seem more palatable.





Glistrup's resurrection


At the Progress Party's (Fremskridtspartiets) annual convention in 1997, 80% voted no to the re-admission of Mogens Glistrup to the party from which he was excluded in 1991, but to the shock of the party's parliamentary members, he was once again voted into the party he founded during the convention of 1999. 236 delegates voted for, while 131 delegates, together with the four parliamentary members, voted against.


He was not many minutes returned to the party before he wreaked havoc at the annual convention, when as a newly admitted member, he found himself ineligible as a candidate to the central committee and loudly accused the party leadership of being corrupt and rotten and threatened with a court case.


Glistrup demanded to be the party's campaign leader and made it clear that there was a need for a completely new party manifesto -- and concerning what had just been adopted: "It is only fit for the bin." (Jyllands-Posten, 27.9.) During the following days, Glistrup made the headlines with statements about selling Muslim girls to Paraguay and deporting all Muslims out of the country, and the Progress Party's four members of Parliament collectively resigned from the party in protest and founded the movement "Freedom 2000" (Frihed 2000).


According to Glistrup, his tactic was to intentionally cause havoc: "Hopefully I have trod on so many toes, that just like my other comments, it will be remembered for many years to come. The Progress Party's only chance is to wake those who have been lulled to sleep. We shouldn't try to enamour ourselves to the old politicians." (Jyllands-Posten, 30.9.) "The goal was to get in and cause havoc. That, in essence, is what the Progress Party thrives on." (Jyllands-Posten, 1.10.)


It was "a capital blunder to say yes to Glistrup again", wrote Jyllands-Posten in it's editorial the 1.10; "He's mad" was written on the first page of Ekstra Bladet the 13.10. None of the daily newspapers supported Glistrup's comments; nevertheless, the Progress Party's electoral support rose with the resurrection of Glistrup, from 1.5% to 3.4% in the space of a few days, according to a "Gallup Poll" in Politiken.


And on the background of a political message, the more supercilious of which, we undoubtedly would have to return to Nazi Germany to find:


"We just can't import Mohammedans and more Mohammedans, and it's only to annihilate and kill Danes that they come here." (Denmark's TV2-News, 27.9)


"They get three months to leave the country. And if they don't leave, then they will be rounded up and put in camps, like we had the refugees in at one time, and invite people to submit tenders, those who will pay the most, they get them. For example, Paraguay says: 'We would like 6,000 Mohammedan girls between the ages of 12 and 20, and we would like to pay five million for them,' yea, and these five millions, they end up in the Danish state coffers, don't they." (DR-P3's radio program "U-land", 28.9.)


"I suggest an extra 8,000 officers. Such a force would be necessary to round up the Mohammedans when the law is adopted, and in the meantime they can be used against the bikers, junkies and burglars." (Jyllands-Posten, 1.10.)


"Of course I'm a racist -- all good Danes are. Either you're a racist, or else you're a traitor." (Berlingske Tidende, 11.10.)


"Have you never heard, the way subjects like Barsebäck (Swedish nuclear power plant in the vicinity of Copenhagen) or pesticides in farm produce and so on, are discussed? Any and every doubt, should be to the detriment of the malign, and that is why it doesn't matter if we happen to deport 100,000 too many. We are already too many on the Danish soil, so if we happen to deport 3-4-500,000 too many, than that's OK. It would be worse if we deported too few." (Ekstra Bladet, 13.10.)


At a meeting in November, the Progress Party's representative committee, decided yet again to distance themselves sharply from Glistrup's comments, but nevertheless, decided to keep him on as a member and parliamentary candidate. So in that way the party plays it safe -- who knows, he might even attract (yet) more voters…





Ekstra Bladet's new campaign against immigrants


On the 24th Oct. Ekstra Bladet launches its third campaign directed against immigrants within the space of the last few years: "The New Denmark".


In a full-page advertisement in bold print, it states: "In Denmark I was not born, but here I make my home." The advertisement proclaims, that there now are "413.873 people with foreign backgrounds" living in Denmark -- of course this includes everybody, whether they be American and Australian or African and Asian. Not withstanding, it is the Muslims who for the most part, are the exclusive focus of the campaign, as for example, the Muslim who wishes to " Islamise the whole world", while no Christian, with for instance, an American pedigree, clutters up the headlines. Apparently, it is neither unusual, nor sensational and suspect to find for example, an ex- American who wishes to "Americanise the whole world" or Christianise.


In the campaign's introduction article, Ekstra Bladet's chief editor, Sven Ove Gade writes, that for sure there can be "no doubt" that "gross discrimination of foreigners is an everyday occurrence" after which deep-felt expression for "objectively" to part the sun and the wind the following observation is upheld: "One of the major stumbling-blocks is religion, more precisely Islam which is a political religion, where the goal, at least as far as the Islamic fundamentalists are concerned, is the introduction of a religious state, and where Islamic Sharia law takes precedence over the civil, earthly law. Islamic law is God's law, and God can hardly be accommodated [under] the democratic decisions of the Danish democracy."


That "fundamentalists" are to be found in every religion -- and every political trend -- is apparently of little or no relevance, and Gade's characterization of "the Islamic fundamentalists" is led neatly and gracefully to an identification of these "fundamentalists" and that which he terms "a reality" which also is presented as a depiction of Denmark: "It is a reality which has to be considered -- Danes and Muslim immigrants -- for if we allow Islamic law to take precedence over Danish law, then it will not be long before Danish society is transformed."


The next step is for this "a reality" just as neatly and gracefully to become "the reality" and after that to become "this brutal reality": "Brutal maybe, but that's reality. And it is this reality which every Muslim must consider, if he or she wishes to become an equal member of the Danish society."


Brutal manipulation and propaganda, maybe, but that is the scope of Sven Ove Gade's reality.





No Muslims for us please, we are Danes





A wave of xenophobia is sweeping Denmark, but its nice Nordic people reject any charges of racism - arguing, without any trace of irony, that as 'nationalists and Christians' they merely object to having 'Muslims and Arabs' in their midst. And since the country has a tiny immigrant population and, unlike States in southern Europe, does not fear an influx of Muslim job- or asylum-seekers, especially given its high rates of employment, the Islamophobia gripping the land must have been long-standing as well as deep-seated.


Most Danes will resent a charge of racism, arguing that the current xenophobia is temporary and stems from the perception of many Danish people that refugees and immigrants - mostly from the Middle East and Africa - are doing better under the country's generous welfare system than they are.


Even those who admit that there is a growing tide of racism tend to draw a distinction between racism and antipathy to a religion, which is alien to the country's western and Christian civilisation. Hans Jorgen Nielsen, professor of political science at Copenhagen University, said in a recent newspaper interview that while that perception is responsible for the rising xenophobia, the brunt of the resentment is directed against Muslims and Arabs - adding that the Vietnamese are popular.


'What seems to be out there is the feeling about immigrants that we get too little, and they get too much,' he told the International Herald Tribune. 'There are real racists out there, but they are a few. It is not a cosmopolitan society here. Some surveys show that the first and foremost opposition is the Muslim groups and the Arabs. The Vietnamese are absolutely popular.'


Nielsen implied that the real reason why Muslims were detested and the Vietnamese refugees lionised was the formers' greater resistance to assimilation. 'The negative feelings relate to how difficult it is to integrate people,' he said.


The anti-Islamic feeling is being whipped up by the rhetoric of a new and tiny political party that wants all immigrants to be deported and immigration laws to be tightened. Founded in 1995, the Danish Peoples Party (DPP) is led by Mrs Pia Kjaersgaard, a '50-year-old middle-class housewife and mother of two grown children,' as she describes herself.


Kjaersgaard, whose party is Denmark's answer to France's National Front, does not like Jean-Marie Le Pen, who leads the Front - dismissing him as a racist, and racism as a crime. But while calling racism a crime, this mother of two describes her own brand of xenophobia as 'nationalism', complaining that the word 'racism' is too readily applied to mere 'nationalists' like her. And she feels no qualms about calling for the expulsion of Muslims, calling them a problem, but Jews who are doing a 'good job.'


'It is a crime to be a racist, awful, and I don't like what I read about Le Pen of France,' Kjaersgaard said in a recent newspaper interview. 'I think the Muslims are a problem,' she added without any hint of irony. 'They are quite as good people as you or me. But it is a problem in a Christian country to have too many Muslims. We have had Jews for many years and they do a very good job.'


Her problem with Muslims, as distinct from Jews, is that they are not prepared to be assimilated, and that they simply do not like her - a rare frankness in a litany of fudge designed to camouflage her fierce racism.


'You must not show a negative attitude toward our traditions and that is the case, I think, for the Muslims,' she explained. 'They don't like me.'


Racists like this 'Christian' and 'Liberal Nordic' Lady do not care whether Muslims like them or not. Kjaersgaard's aim is to put her fledgling party on the map on the strength of her anti-Muslim rhetoric.


The first electoral test for the success of her rhetoric came on November 19, when the results of the first local elections (or national for that matter) held since the establishment of her party in 1995 were published. As her tiny and unknown party captured 7 per cent of the votes, she clearly had no complaint about the effectiveness of her anti-Muslim campaign. The DPP fielded candidates in 142 of Denmark's 275 districts, according to figures from the interior ministry.


Kjaersgaard saw the results as 'this fantastic breakthrough', describing them only as 'a beginning', and predicting that the party would 'go far' in the parliamentary elections that must be held by next September.


She had no doubt - and was frank enough to announce - that her party's electoral success was due to the voters' concern about immigration. 'These results showed that voters have had enough of the government's passive policy on immigration and said clearly that enough is enough,' she said during a television debate on November 19.


As foreign nationals account only for 4.5 percent of Denmark's population of 5.5 million, they are not that visible. Kjaersgaard's success in whipping up so much Islamophobia in such a short time in an environment lacking an immigration crisis must be due to the wider antipathy latent in the west's crusader psyche.


Well i know that some Imam from denmark have all said! that they think the Boycot should stop against Denmark! i must say (me) i am for it,I DONDT accept that they talk this way on Muhammad Salla Allahy alayhl wa sallam! Islam and so forth BELIVE me it hasent STOP her in littel Denmark...

fi aman allah
Abdallah
Reply

Herostratos
04-26-2006, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hanifi
We are proud that we are not free in this world - Not free in the sense that every action and thought has moral constraints. We are slaves to Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'laa. This is our Theology and Ideology. If you have a problem with it then you are responsible for what you believe.
The problem is when you are using your theology and ieology to constrain others...
Reply

blunderbus
04-27-2006, 11:52 PM
"I recommend you read Voltaire: 'I may not like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.'"

That's actually a quote by the writer, Evelyn Beatrice Hall aka S.G. Tallentyre. But that's a common misquote :)
Reply

blunderbus
04-28-2006, 12:47 AM
Since I'm doing quotes, here's some more. I know it's a waste of time but here goes anyway.

"If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

"If you're in favor of free speech, then you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise. Otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech." Noam Chomsky

"The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish." Robert H. Jackson

"The principle of free thought is not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought we hate." US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

To answer the question "Do Muslims believe in free speech?" (with some exceptions) the answer is "No"
Reply

NJUSA
04-28-2006, 12:59 AM
I think the juristic tradition of restricting free speech where it does genuine harm has been distorted to create a belief that any sort of offensive speech is unlawful, or should be. I have mixed feelings about banning offensive speech, as I've benefitted from the practice as an African American, but how do other people feel about this? Would you refrain from saying anything potentially offensive to someone else in exchange for enjoying that same comfort?
Reply

blunderbus
04-28-2006, 01:03 AM
"Would you refrain from saying anything potentially offensive to someone else in exchange for enjoying that same comfort?"

As a matter of civil courtesy, Yes.
As a matter of law, No
Reply

Wahid
04-28-2006, 01:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mirage41
So who is the judge of lies and mockery? Christians might think that Islam is "lies and mockery", so will you stop being muslim now?

thats for lawyers to decide, mind u thats the boring stuff they do best :giggling:
common sense should be to be respectfull and if u critisize back it up by facts not some cheap shot cartoons or verbal insults
Reply

cleo
04-29-2006, 01:05 AM
Free speech...I love you all.....
Reply

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