Worship if Muhammud?

[Malsidabym]

I will assume that in Islam it is wrong to worship any other than Allah, God himself and none other. If this is wrong then please correct me, but I believe it is right. Sometimes in listening to muslims talk about the prophet Muhhamud, it seems like it has crossed the line from great respect, to worship, or idolizing. I hear love for muhhamud greater than ones own children, etc , all kinds of wonderous praises for muhhamud, but much less frequently is this kind of praise directed at Allah. Do muslims ever think of this and is it something that concerns any of you? Is it another trick by satan himself?

[Malaikah]

Hello Malsidab.

Well as Muslims we are taught to love the Prophet Muhammad pbuh more than any other person, but not more than Allah swt. Sorry i dont have the exact reference, but its true that we are meant to love the prophet pbuh more than our children, our parents or even our selves.

This is NOT worship of him, but he is simply a perfect person who suffered greatly for us and we love him.

[Malsidabym]

Who instructed you to love him more than yourself or your family? Are you sure that it isn't the trick I asked about earlier?

[Malaikah]

nahh mate its not, the prophet hmself said so, i will try to find the hadith for you (do you know what a hadith is? if you dont, its a narration of the prophet)

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[alitheislamian]

:sl:
Muslims love Muhammad (SAW) bec He is the habib Of Allah.(ALLAH loves Muhammad (SAW) more than any body else)
As Muslims love Allah very much therefore they Also Love Allah's love (habib) Hazrat Muhammad (SAW).
:w:

[PAPA LAZAROU]

Hi there,
What about the people he had murdered for saying disrespectful things about him?
I cant see how the most perfect person who ever lived could do that to another human being, could somebody explain how?

Respectfully,
Papa.

[Malaikah]

I think you have a misunderstanding, the prophet did NOT murder, i will try to find you a reference too.

is there a particular incident you are refering too?

[Malaikah]

Evidence:

When Sayiduna 'Umar heard him say,"None of you believes until he loves me more than he loves his children, his parents, and all people," he said, "O Messenger of God, you are indeed dearer to me than all else except my own self."

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "No, by He in whose hand my soul is, not until I am dearer to you than your own self."

At which Sayiduna 'Umar said, "Now, by God, you are dearer to me than my own self!" At which he was told, "Now, 'Umar!" (Meaning now, your faith is complete).

[Bukhari]

[Malsidabym]

Please take this question without offense because none is intended, it is a true question for me, but, The prophet says "I am the most perfect human being to ever live, you all must love me more than your family or yourself." Um, hmm... please.. really... no offense intended.. but are you sure that this is not the trick I was asking about earlier? It does seem, well, a little bit self serving , or at least convenient for muhammud. I could say that to people too (but I am sure that they would throw assorted rotten food items at me, but then I am not a real smooth talker).

[Malaikah]

I understand what you mean, it seems a little strange but youhave no understand that vanity or 'self love' (cant think of the proper word, sorry) was just not part of the prophets character.

I would first like to point out that, prophet Muhammad is the MESSENGER OF GOD. Dont we, the followers, need to know the prophet was the best person out there? God cant give his message to just any one.

It is possibe that when you read that you imagined a very arrogant person, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Here is a little comething about the modesty of the Prophet that might help you understand (from http://islamtoday.com/show_prophet_s...ub_cat_id=77):

Modesty

Muhammed (peace be upon him) was very modest and shy; in fact, he was a perfect model of modesty. It is narrated by many of his companions that he was more modest and bashful than a maiden. He never spoke loudly or in an unseeming manner. When he went shopping in the market, he always passed by the people quietly with a smile. When he heard anything undesirable in the assembly; he did not say anything out of respect for the people, but the colour of his face showed his feelings and the companions would become cautious. A'isha said that she never saw Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) laughing so immoderately that she could see the inside of his mouth, for he only used to smile.

Ibn Umar reported that a man from the Ansaar was giving his brother a warning against shyness> Then the Noble Prophet (peace be upon him) came along and said, "Leave him alone, shyness is a part of faith."

Zaid ibn Talya reported Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) as saying, "Every religion has a character trait and the character of Islam is modesty."

Abu Hurairah reported, "Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) never criticised any food (presented to him) but would eat it if he liked it; otherwise, he would leave it (without expressing dislike).

Ibn Masud reported Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) as saying, "None of my companions must tell me anything about anyone, for I like to come out to you with no ill feelings."

Abdullah ibn Musalam reported Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) as saying, "Modesty is a part of the teachings of the previous Prophets and anyone who lacks it may do whatever he likes."

He lived a simple and modest life both in Makkah, as a trader and a Messenger, and in Medinah, as the head of the state and Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). The change in his social status from that of a trader in Makkah to the head of the state of Medinah did not bring any change in his modest living. Umar reported the Prophet (peace be upon him) as saying, "Do not exalt me as the Christians have exalted Jesus son of Mary. I am just His servant, so call me Allah's servant and Messenger."

'Abdullah b. Abi Aufa' reports: "The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) never disdained to go with a slave or a widow to accomplish their tasks." Anas says that any slave-girl or maidservant of Medinah could hold the Prophet (peace be upon him) by hand and say whatever she liked or take him to the place she desired. When 'Adiy b. Hatim came to see the Prophet (peace be upon him), he called him inside his house. A maidservant brought a cushion to rest on but the Prophet (peace be upon him) placed it between him and 'Adiy and sat down on the floor. 'Adiy later said that he had then immediately realised that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was not a king.

Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) used to visit the sick, attend funerals, ride on a donkey and accept a slave's invitation for a meal. Jabir states that the Prophet (peace be upon him) used to slow down his pace for the sake of the weak and also prayed for them. Anas said: The Prophet (peace be upon him) accepted an invitation even if he was presented a barley bread and soup whose taste had changed. " He also reports the Prophet (peace be upon him) as saying, "I am Allah's servant, I eat like a servant and sit like a servant.''

'Abdullah b. 'Amr b. al-'As says: "Once when the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) came to my house, I gave him a cushion filled with bark, but he sat down on the floor placing the cushion between me and him."

The Prophet (peace be upon him) used to tidy up his house, tether the camels, feed animals, take food with his servants, and help them in kneading flour and bringing provisions from the market.

[Malaikah]

Also, to prove that he was not selfserving, as you indicated before:
Source: http://islamtoday.com/show_prophet_s...&sub_cat_id=62

It was a settled principle with the Prophet (peace be upon him) that he always kept to the fore his own kith and kin and those who were nearer to him in facing a risk or hazard but allotted them the last place in distributing favours and rewards and spoils of war. When the three well-known swordsmen of Quraysh, 'Utba b. Rabi’a, Shayba b. Rabi'a and Walid b. 'Utba, challenged the Muslims to a single combat at Badr, the Prophetsent forward Hamza, 'All and 'Ubayda although he knew about the valour of enemy combatants and also had a number of veterans among the Muhaajiroon and the Ansar who could have successfully tilted with the Quray****e battlers. All the three, Hamza, 'Ali and 'Ubayda, belonged to the Prophet's (peace be upon him) own clan, Banu Hashim, and were his nearest relatives. They were also held dear to him but the Prophet (peace be upon him) disliked to imperil others for the sake of keeping his kindreds out of danger. God helped the three to emerge successful in the combat; Hamza and 'Ali came back safe and triumphant while 'Ubayda was brought back mortally wounded.

Again, when the Prophet (peace be upon him) disallowed usury and abolished blood vengeance belonging to the pre-Islamic period on the occasion of Farewell Pilgrimage he declared, "The usury of the pre-Islamic period is abolished, and the first of our usury I abolish is that of 'Abbas b. 'Abdul Muttalib. Claims of blood vengeance belonging- to the pagan past have been abolished and the first of those murdered among us whose blood vengeance I remit is that of the son of Rabi’a b. al Harith."

Unlike the kings, rulers and political leaders, the Prophet of God (peace be upon him) always kept his kin and kindred in the background, giving preference to others in giving out gifts and rewards. 'Ali relates that Fatima had to work hard in grinding corn. So, when she got the news that some slave girls had been brought to the Prophet (peace be upon him), she went to him but did not find him. Aisha was present there to whom she told (of her desire for a servant). When the Prophet (peace be upon him) came, Aisha informed him about Fâtima's visit. Relating this incident 'Ali says: "The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) visited us when we had gone to bed. We were about to get up but he told us to stay where we were. He then sat down near me and I felt the coldness of his feet on my chest. He then said, 'Let me guide you to something better than what you have asked. When you go to bed, say Subhan Allah (Glory be to God) thirty-three times, Alham-du lilaah (Praise be to God) thirty-three times, and Allah-o-Akbar (God is most great) thirty-four times. This will be better for you than a servant."

In another report of the same incident handed down through another source, the Prophet (peace be upon him) is also reported to have said, "By God, I cannot give you anything at the time when the bellies of my companions of Suffa have been hollowed by hunger. I have nothing to meet their expenses and I will sell these to provide for them."

And, aslo, about his sacrifices (http://islamtoday.com/show_prophet_s...ub_cat_id=74):

The most conspicuous quality of Muhammed (peace be upon him) was his unselfish struggle for the cause of Islam and sacrifice of his personal comforts for other people. He sacrificed all, even the love and comfort of his most dear ones, for Islam and for the convenience of other people. He loved his daughter, Fatima (may Allah be pleased with her), so much that he used to stand up with an abundance of love for her and kissed her forehead whenever she came to see him. She lived in extreme poverty and herself worked on a wheel to grind flour and brought water from the well. The palms of her hands were worn out through the grinding of flour and her chest was beaten black and blue with the load of the water-bag. She came to her father and asked him for a maid-servant. Muhammed (peace be upon him) replied, "I have not been able to do anything for the As'hab Suffah; until this problem is resolved satisfactorily I cannot attend to other matters."

He never cared for his own interests or the interests of his most dear ones, when he was considering the interest and welfare of the people. Once a woman offered him a sheet of cloth which he needed at that time and he took it from her. A man praised the beauty of the sheet of the cloth and asked the Prophet (peace be upon him) to give it to him; the Prophet (peace be upon him) took it off and gave it to him. When he left the assembly, the people cursed the man saying, "You knew that God's Messenger (peace be upon him) needed this and also knew that he never turns down anyone's request." He agreed with them but said that he wanted the cloth as blessing and that it would be kept for his coffin.

Muhammed (peace be upon him) spent all his life in poverty but still never refused anyone's request. After the Muslim victories, many lands and orchards came into their possession but he distributed them all.. Muhammed (peace be upon him) himself set an example of self-sacrifice by his own deeds for others, and his companions followed in his footsteps:

"But those who, before them, had homes (in Medinah) and had adopted the faith, show their affection to such as came to them for refuge, and entertain no desire in their hearts for things given to the (latter), but give them preference over themselves, even though poverty was their (own lot). And those saved from the covetousness of their own soul, they are the ones who achieve prosperity." [Qur'aan 59:9]

There are hundreds of such instances in the life of Muhammed (peace be upon him) which bear witness to his unselfishness and to his sacrifice for other people.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

Hi there,
Heres one of the murders he called for:

From the Sirat Rasul Allah page 675, 676.



`UMAYR B. `ADIYY'S JOURNEY TO KILL `ASMA' D. MARWAN She was of B. Umayyya b. Zayd. When Abu `Afak had been killed she displayed disaffection. `Abdullah b. al-Harith b. Al-Fudayl from his father said that she was married to a man of B. Khatma called Yazid b. Zayd. Blaming Islam and its followers she said:

I despise B. Malik and al-Nabit
and `Auf and B. al-Khazraj.
You obey a stranger who is none of yours,
One not of Murad or Madhhij. {1}
Do you expect good from him after the killing of your chiefs
Like a hungry man waiting for a cook's broth?
Is there no man of pride who would attack him by surprise
And cut off the hopes of those who expect aught from him?
Hassan b. Thabit answered her:


Banu Wa'il and B. Waqif and Khatma
Are inferior to B. al-Khazrahj.
When she called for folly woe to her in her weeping,
For death is coming.
She stirred up a man of glorious origin,
Noble in his going out and in his coming in.
Before midnight he dyed her in her blood
And incurred no guilt thereby.
When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O `Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so `Umayr went back to his people.

Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [daughter of] Marwan. She had five sons, and when `Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting." That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was `Umayr b. `Adiy who was called the "Reader", and `Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam.

{1} The note reads "Two tribes of Yamani origin."

Respectfully,
Papa.

[Malaikah]

umm.. do you have a link for this?? reference? anything?

id first like to clarify that this is real, before we continue

[Malaikah]

Ive done some research and it seems that the story you have posted is actually FALSE.

Please follow the following link: http://www.answering-christianity.co...ut_killing.htm

If you have any other stories please let us know so we can clarify them for you.

I also strongly recommend that you do not rely on the site answering islam to get your information, becuase almost everything on that site has already been refuted.

[Malaikah]

Also, the story youmentioned involves some one insulting the prophet and then the prophet praising his friend for killing this person.

Here is a REAL accoutn of what happens when some one insults the prophet (and it is a real story):

Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewish woman brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of God’s Apostle. (Sahih al-Bukhârî, Vol. 3, Bk. 47, No. 786)

And:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Messenger of God (peace be upon him) saw the corpse of a woman who had been slain in one of the raids, and he disapproved of it and forbade the killing of women and children. (Sahih al-Bukhârî, Vol. 4, Bk. 52, No. 257 & 258)

[PAPA LAZAROU]

Hi there heres a link,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan

I suggest you purchase a copy of Islams greatest chronicle of Mohammads life.

I read the link to the anti-christian website you supplied, but it really doesnt say much, apart from you can pick and choose which bits you like to hear, the ones that show Mohammed are obviously falsified(!), and the good bits are holy.
How sad that individuals have to decieve themselves beacause they dont like what is in their own books. At least the violent supporters of Islam have the decency to not do so.
There are plenty of other references, do you want me to go through them with you? Or will you just post back links to childish reasoning again.

Respectfully,
Papa.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

i meant to say!!!!

Hi there heres a link,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan

I suggest you purchase a copy of Islams greatest chronicle of Mohammads life.

I read the link to the anti-christian website you supplied, but it really doesnt say much, apart from: you can pick and choose which bits you like to hear, the ones that show Mohammed in a bad light are obviously falsified(!), and the good bits only are holy.
How sad that individuals have to decieve themselves beacause they dont like what is in their own books. At least the violent supporters of Islam have the decency to not do so.
There are plenty of other references, do you want me to go through them with you? Or will you just post back links to childish reasoning again.

Respectfully,
Papa.

[Malsidabym]

Hi Cheese, thank you for your efforts in answering, and also thank you to Papa for adding to the discussion. The problem of course is there is no way to offer concrete evidence of what cheese says. Just like thier is no way for christians to offer concrete evidence that Jesus is the son of God and is God. Both of these views are supported by historical writings, each respective holy book, and interpretations by (what some may say "biased") the followers of each religion. And then, each can equally be challenged by others as demonstrated by the two websites mentioned already, 'answering islam' and 'answering-christianity'. Each debater offer 'evidence', 'proof', and 'facts', and then claim 'victory' in the debate. When sadly, there is no proof, only the 'belief' of the debater that they think is proof. But this is the problem, the faith of the believer, causes them to see it as proof, while the skeptic sees only an opinion, or a story that has been passed from one to another. Stories as we all know can be true, but can also be fabricated, they cannot qualify as proof. I am not saying what cheese says is wrong or right, only there is no way to prove one way or the other. What is necessary to convince someone of these things is for that person to have faith to begin with, or to be willing to make a leap of faith. I would like to add though, for you Cheese, even if your faith is wrong, if it truly in your mind and heart (and I only mean truly) gives you peace and joy and a sense of worth, then it does not matter if it's wrong.

[Malaikah]

Papa.
i do not understand your rejection. I quote from the link i gave you:

...this isnâd (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.[4]

It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in Al-'Ilal[5] and is listed among other flawed reports.

So according to its isnâd, the report is forged - because one of its reporters is notorious for fabricating hadîth. Hence, such a story is rejected and is better off being put into the trash can.

Do you understand what this means? The story that you posted is fasle, it did not happen. A guy made it up. There is no childish reasoning involved!!

By the way, it was not an anti-christian site i gave you, its a website that was set up to defend islam against an anti-islam website (answering-islam). Sorry, i thought you got your story from that site becuase it was in the same formatting as you posted it.

I wish you would post more references so that i could explain them to you and you can see that i am not blindly defending my religion and that the prophet was not a murderer, and that refutations are not childish.

Malsidab.

Thank you. and please understand that i do not have knowledge of the whole religion, im only 17 years old. So im sorry if my replies are not good enough.

I am not saying what cheese says is wrong or right, only there is no way to prove one way or the other.

umm.. the stuff i showed you are not based only on the Quran, but on the narrations of the prophet. The methods of recording the narrations is sound, we can be VERY of certain hadiths, some are called strong hadith, we can be confident about there authenticity, others are weak hadiths, which we arent too sure about. If you dont want to take my word for it then i recommend you research a little about it.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

Hi there malsidab,
Thats quite a fair comment you have made, though perhaps there is a qualifier. I am not linking to sites of an anti islamic nature, I only quote from the books of Islam. Do you agree that to say that the authors of Sirat Rasul Allah were falsifying some material (the bits judged by todays standards as wrong) but not others (the bits that are ok by todays standards) in its defence is a bit beyond reasoning? The book is held in the highest regard among muslims as the best chronicle of Mohammed, written even before hadith.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

Hi cheese,
Thankyou for your post.
If you dont like that author, theres more you know, are we to assume theyre all wanton forgers?
Also, i would like to commend you for attitude and your posts, it is a good thing to see in one of your years.

Respectfully, Papa.

[Malsidabym]

Cheese, sorry if it seemed as if I respected your responses less than any other. To the contrary, my entire statement was to say that despite the overwhelming argument that you present, in it's well presented and thought out manner, I cannot accept it or any other persons opinion as proof. I would like to comment that the knowledge that you presented, and the respectful way that you treat others would have lead me to believe you were someone much older.

[Abu Zakariya]

As for our love of Muhammad (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), this is not idolozing and/or worshiping him. The sole purpose of our love to him is because he is God's messenger. We love him because he is someone that God sent as a mercy to humankind to explain God and God's revealed way. So the reason we love him is because we love God and God's message.
And of course we don't praise him more than we praise God Himself. For instance, we say, after mentioning his name, "may God's peace and blessing be upon him." We never go beyond that and pray to him or something similar to that.
But we praise God as often as we can and say things like: "Glory be to my Lord, the Most High." These two things can't even be compared, let alone be equal (not to mention that the "worship" of Muhammed would be greater than the worship of God by Muslims).
So we love him only for the sake of God.
However, there are some Muslims that do go beyond that, but they can't be considered as Muslims (in general, however some people do this because of ignorance and we can't say all of them are non-Muslims). For instance, some people go to his grave and pray to him (there are guards at the grave who's job is to prevent this) and some people even claim that when Muhammed (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was created, God took some of His light and created him from it. This is wrong and very dangerous. He was a normal human being, sent by God and the reason we love him is for the sake of God. We love everything about God and we love His messengers. This isn't idolizing or worshiping.

As for PAPA LAZAROU's question:

Thats quite a fair comment you have made, though perhaps there is a qualifier. I am not linking to sites of an anti islamic nature, I only quote from the books of Islam. Do you agree that to say that the authors of Sirat Rasul Allah were falsifying some material (the bits judged by todays standards as wrong) but not others (the bits that are ok by todays standards) in its defence is a bit beyond reasoning? The book is held in the highest regard among muslims as the best chronicle of Mohammed, written even before hadith.

You have to understand the nature of the book by ibn Ishaq. Nobody has ever claimed that it is 100% authentic. There are some authentic narrations and some week ones. There are even some made up ones. He only collected a lot of narrations and nobody ever claimed that all of them are authentic and should be relied on. There are even some scholars of the past (like Malik ibn Anas I believe) that severely criticized the authenticity of the book.

[Malaikah]

Papa.

But critics may have an objection: if these stories are false, then why they are mentioned in Islamic references in the first place? In response, we have earlier shown the position of learned Muslim scholars toward these references in the biographies, whose authors used to relate hundreds of reports without checking them or relying on serious criticism. These particular stories even proved their unscientific methodology because they are reported without isnâd at all. This is extremely irregular of any respectable scholar. Ibn Jarîr At-Tabârî (224-310 A.H.) in his encyclopedic book of history Tarikh Al-Umam wa Al-Mulûk did not give mention of these stories at all despite the fact that he had mentioned far less significant reports in his work.

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.co...ut_killing.htm

sorry, i tried to follow the link on the site that had a more detailed expaintaion but the link didnt work. but i guess this could be taken as a summary?

[Malaikah]

Papa, i would really appreciate it if you posted more of the stories you have heard, so we can discuss them. i can assure you that you need not assume that any thing that sounds bad is NOT immediatly thought of as fake story.

I am waiting for your posts. :)

malsidab:

I cannot accept it or any other persons opinion as proof.

Sorry, i am confused, i dont think what i gave you was opinion, it was based on historical records...

[PAPA LAZAROU]

Hi there cheese,
Thankyou for your willingness to discuss issues openly.

heres another one, a hadith, this time I'm sure you will agree from an undeniably reputable source.

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."

So in this one you will see that that the prophet also condones deceit as well as murder.

Respectfully,
Papa.

[Malsidabym]

cheese, The problem from my perspective is I have little faith in the ability of men to properly record history. This is what I meant about fabricating stories. Many parts of history throughout the world have been incorrectly recorded for various reasons. Biased accounts of events, sheltered views, propaganda, opinions, etc. I question everything though, please do not feel as if it is only Islam that I question. I even question science until I see the experiment data, proof, etc for myself. Just a natural skeptic.

[Malaikah]

cheese, The problem from my perspective is I have little faith in the ability of men to properly record history. This is what I meant about fabricating stories. Many parts of history throughout the world have been incorrectly recorded for various reasons. Biased accounts of events, sheltered views, propaganda, opinions, etc. I question everything though, please do not feel as if it is only Islam that I question. I even question science until I see the experiment data, proof, etc for myself. Just a natural skeptic.

i totally understand, agree and think that way too! but perhaps not to your extent, and ive read about the method of how the narrations of the prophet were recorded and they seem pretty good.. maybe (if you are interested) you might look them up, beucase i dont see how you can learn/believe anything if you dont beleive that the hadith are accurate/true.

[Abu Zakariya]

PAPA LAZAROU

This is undenialbly off-topic, but here's a response:

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/kba.htm

[Malaikah]

Papa, you have posted exactly the story that i thought and hoped you might, and i would liek to present you with a discussion of this hadith.

here is the article: http://www.answering-christianity.co...to_silas_2.htm

i know it is very long, you can skip about half of it (you will know what to skip when you get there).

I will summaries it here for you:
1. This occured during a time of war.
2. The two paragraphs that summarise the page best:

Just like Ka’b incited people to fight the prophet Muhammad, telling them to kill him and so on. The prophet returned the favor, just like Ka’b told people to fight Muhammad and kill him, the prophet Muhammad told the Muslims who would go fight and kill Ka’b. Had Ka’b directly went and tried to kill the prophet, the prophet would then directly go and kill Ka’b. However so, Ka’b told others to go kill Muhammad and to fight him, after the prophet Muhammad found out, he told the Muslims who would go fight and kill Ka’b.

So as we see, Ka’b the hypocrite was the one who started all the problems, for himself, and for the Muslims. The prophet Muhammad did not have Ka’b killed because he insulted the prophet or the Muslims, the prophet had Ka’b killed because Ka’b was instigating others to kill Muhammad. He was rightly punished for that crime; Ka’b was not an innocent man by any means. Once you go instigate violence, hatred, and murder against God’s prophet, you are bound to get punished. Ka’b the hypocrite brought this upon himself.

i think the most imprtant part to read would be that part with the heading: THE KILLING OF KA’B B. AL-SHRAF, THE JEW

I hope that helps you understand the issue more.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

Hi Abu Zakariya,
So we can only discuss this in arabic. no disrespect, but thats the lamest excuse ive heard! surely it can be read, and be made sense of! does the arabic say he ordered a murder, or not?! This is just a bizzarre get out clause that makes no sense.

Respectfully,
Papa.

[Malaikah]

PAPA LAZAROU

This is undenialbly off-topic, but here's a response:

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/kba.htm

:sl: bro this site that you gave is so confusing!!

malsidab, im so sorry that such off topic post have taken over your thread, would you prefer that we creat a new thread and continue the off-topic discussion there?

[PAPA LAZAROU]

thats a good idea cheese, i wouldnt like to disuade from this topic.
Could you start it, as i have limited status.
thanks, papa.

[Malaikah]

i made the thread here: http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post179845

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi malsidab,
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh also warned us of exaggerating in praise for him and repeatedly emphasized that he was a human being. Nevertheless, out of all human beings it is true that we love the Prophet Muhammad pbuh the most as he is the greatest example for us of the highest standard of moral conduct.

[Malaikah]

malsibad,
To add to what bro Ansar said above, given that the prophet pbuh is an example for us, so naturally he would need to the best human being and we could not have doubts of this becuase if our example was not the most perfect human then how can we have faith in appling his sunnah (example)?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

malsibad,
To add to what bro Ansar said above, given that the prophet pbuh is an example for us, so naturally he would need to the best human being and we could not have doubts of this becuase if our example was not the most perfect human then how can we have faith in appling his sunnah (example)?

Precisely!

It sounds like you have doubts...

Peace

[Malaikah]

Greetings,


Precisely!

It sounds like you have doubts...

Peace

WHAT?? are you saying I have doubts?? me??:? :rollseyes

what makes you think that? i have no doubt at all that the prophet pbuh was the perfect example for man kind, and the perfect person with whom God swt could place his message.

Please explain why you think i have these doubts..

and if you were not refering to me... my bad :D

[czgibson]

Greetings cheese,

Please explain why you think i have these doubts..

and if you were not refering to me... my bad :D

I was referring to you. :)

It seems to me that your logic is back to front on this question. You don't say "Muhammad (pbuh) was the most perfect human being, therefore we should follow his example", but "We follow his example, therefore he must have been the most perfect human being." Can you see the difference?

It seems from your words that following Islam is something that's been imposed on you, rather than something you've adopted because you find it reasonable.

Peace

[gr8man]

hi Czgibson

Muhammad (PBUH) is actually the messenger of Allah (God) so thats why we follow HIM HE (PBUH) is a perfect human bcoz our LORD said to us through HIM

[mustafajadeed]

Salam Alay Koom:

My Sister, you have hit the nail on the head!

The Ayat in the Qur'an (For Cheese's Index ) you are looking for, is Q: 33:6 "The Prophet is closer to the believer than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers..."

But how many times did Allah Tell His Messenger to tell the people "I am only a Man"? (Q:41:6/18:110/17:93) and that he was "only a Messenger"? (Q:3:144) and to tell the people of the Book "No extremes in your Religion"(Q:4:171) and that the Book(Qur'an) "Teaches you should Worship Allah" (Q:11:2). That should be all you need to Know!

But people have a tendency to "Slip the Pedestal" up under men that they like. Did the Companions call the Prophet(saw)"Holy", no. They called him "Messenger of Allah" "Allah's Messenger" etc. the "Holy" is in the English parenthesis not in the Arabic.

Allah has an Attribute called "Al Quddus" "The Holy One"-Only One that is "Holy". So how can anything or anyone else be "Holy" when Allah Him/Itself IS the Holy One?

Do not get me wrong, I Love my Prophet(saw), The Qur'an(They put "Holy" in English but if you at the Arabic on it, it is usually "Al Kareem (Noble/Generous) and Majid(Honorable) on the cover , The Kaaba( in the Qur'an in Arabic as Al Beyt(The House) or Al Masjid Al Haram(The Forbidden Masjid), and all else in Islam. I just can not Worship those things, and Seperated Muhammed from the Other Prophets(saw)(Q: 2:136/2:285/3:84/4:150-152).

If I listen to Qur'an, then I must listen to Qur'an and not what has become "Popular" is many cases.

Only Allah is Holy so says Himself...I have the choice to obey that Order or not.
How can I say the Christians have worshipping Their Prophet(who is also one of my Prophets(saw) is wrong, when I am just a wrong about doing it to My Own? Ma Salam

[*charisma*]

Greetings,

It seems to me that your logic is back to front on this question. You don't say "Muhammad (pbuh) was the most perfect human being, therefore we should follow his example", but "We follow his example, therefore he must have been the most perfect human being." Can you see the difference?

lol i was going to reply to cheese's thread yesterday to correct her on that cuz i felt it was said in a weird way, cudnt agree with it, so thanks for pointing that out..

Muhammed (saaws) was a perfect human being before we were able to follow his examples, so what ur first statement says is very correct in our beliefs , although all the prophets were made to be perfect, but it doesnt mean that we were supposed to follow all their examples. Reason being Muhammed was the one that carried out Islam and his practices were preserved in original form through the years by strong followers unlike with the past prophets (peace be upon them). So therefore Muhammed was created perfectly before Islam was brought to us.

"We follow his example, therefore he must have been the most perfect human being."

Cheese's statment didnt work out because if we followed his example for him to have been a perfect human being, then we would have been perfect, and we are not.

regards

[Malaikah]

:sl: and Greetings.

oh.. hmm um.. good point! i know what you mean, and i knew it sounded weird when i said it, but the reason i said it that way was becuase i was talking to a non-muslim. i thought that if i had just said "the prophet is perfect thats why we follow his example", well why would a non-muslim beleive me that the prophet is perfect in the first place?

So the reason why i said it the other way around was not because i had my doubts, but rather to present my argument is such a way as to highlight that if God had allocated a man for humanity to follow as an example, then naturally this man would have to be perfect. i thought that this approach would acheive the best effect.

Anyone understand my point? Naturally, if i were talking to a muslim, i would have said that the prophet was perfect that is why we follow him, since the muslim would already believe that Muhammad pbuh is perfect.

Peace.

p.s. nice comment bro musatafajadeed

[mustafajadeed]

Salam Alay Koom:

Actually, Qur'an Does say to follow their example: Q:4:90 "Those were the (Prophets) who recieved Allah's guidance: copy the guidance they recieved" This is after Q:4:84, where the list of Prophets(saw) started and ending with the Qur'anic Order (Fard- see Q:28:85 "Inna iladthee farada a'layka alQuraana") to copy them. When I say something, please look it up for yourself(I notice some do- alHamdu-lillahi- I am not perfect, and I am not a Hafizth, but I do try to keep track of what is and what is not in Qur'an.)

Plus as I mentioned earlier, there are the multiple "No Separation of Prophets" Order- the Qur'an also mentions those who separate (Q:4:150-152), I cannot make that mistake.

[abdul Majid]

we MUST obey the PROPHET(pbh),



The Companions of the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) used to take the ruling on different matters in their lives from the Qur

[abdul Majid]

The Companions of the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) used to take the ruling on different matters in their lives from the Qur

[abdul Majid]

ahhh its not loading........ so here ...


A very strong indicator of the obligation upon us to follow the Sunnah can be found in this aayah:

"...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam)) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is severe in punishment." [Qur

[abdul Majid]

A very strong indicator of the obligation upon us to follow the Sunnah can be found in this aayah:

"...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam)) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is severe in punishment." [Qur’aan 59:7] Allah has also made the obedience of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) in conjunction with the obedience to Him:

"And obey Allah and the Messenger, that ye may obtain mercy." [Qur’aan 3:132]

We are asked by Allah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) to answer any order by Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam):

"O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life." [Qur’aan 8:24]

Allah made the obedience of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) an obedience to Him, and following Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) an indication of the love of Allah subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa:

"He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah." [Qur’aan 4:80]

"Say: If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you sins." [Qur’aan 3:31]

And Allah subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa warrned us from not following the instructions of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam):

"Then let those beware who withstand the Messenger’s order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them." [Qur’aan 24:63]

Not only that, but Allah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) told us that disobeying Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) is Kufr (disbelief):

"Say: Obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith." [Qur’aan 3:32]

It was never allowed by Allah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) that a believer disobey Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) order:

"It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." [Qur’aan 33:36]

To show that not following the ruling of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) when a dispute occurs is a sign of hypocrisy, Allah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) says:

"They say, We believe in Allah and in the apostle, and we obey; but even after that, some of them turn away; they are not (really) Believers. When they are summoned to Allah and His apostle, in order that He may judge between them, behold some of them decline (to come)....The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey"; it is such as these that will attain felicity." [Qur’aan 24:47-51]

[mustafajadeed]

Salam Alay Koom:

Of Course we must obey the Prophet(saw) Specifically:Obey Allah, Obey the Messenger, and those charged with Authority over you (Q:4:59) but Allah also wanted you to learn from the Prophets(saw) before him in this One Religion that he had established, so you can see where mankind had changed the Deen(way of Faith)- and not repeat the mistakes people(Not the Prophets(saw)) made-Did Isa Ibn Maryam/The Man Called Jesus tell people to worship him? No, the qur'an confirms that(Q:5:119-120). If you do not research and find out about the prior Prophets(saw), who Allah himself guided, how do you know where man went wrong? Muhammed(saw) said he was the Last Brick in a wall (that is in Hadith, I cannot "Quote" and give the number for it, but I simply "remember" it- Take it with a grain of salt until YOU run across it too :) ) So you cannot just see the one "Brick" and forget the rest of the bricks in the wall.

[abdul Majid]

i agree brother

[shorouk]

we love allah very very much as he is our one and only god but the reason that u may b noticing that we muslims refer more to he prophet is because he is our role model ... he wa s aperfect man and You can follow the beloved prophet Isa (AS) “Jesus” as a poor abstinent, a patient citizen, or a pious young man. However, you cannot follow his model as a grandfather, father, or husband, simply because he did not get married. You can follow the model of Solaiman (AS) “Solomon” as a just ruler or a thankful wealthy man, but you cannot follow him as a weak citizen or as an oppressed poor man, simply because he did not lead such a life. The only human who has gone through all experiences is our beloved prophet (SAWS). He led a poor and a rich life, he was strong and weak, he lived as a citizen and as a ruler, he strived for peace, yet he was a great conquest leader. If you are rich, you can follow his example when he received money and treasures that would fill the space between two mountains. If you are poor, you can follow him when he tied a stone to his stomach to lessen his sufferings because of starvation. If you are a teacher, you can follow his way of treating his companions, and if you are a student you can follow his example when he received the Revelation from Jibril (AS) “Gabriel” etc. He is the only one who was a husband of one woman and of many women, he had children and he witnessed the death of some of them. Everything is there; you can follow him in every respect of your life.

[shorouk]

also wen u are reading about islam and the prophet peace b upon him make sure that the book or site is trusted... some ppl write rong contradicting thinsg about islam which are NOT TRUE!

like the part about the prophet murdering he did far from murder
there were his enemies that would throw garbage in front of his house and yet he was patient and ever so tolerant....and so much more ...

i think to get a clear understanding u should go to mosque and ask ... or simply a sk a muslim :D

[M H Kahn]

Please take this question without offense because none is intended, it is a true question for me, but, The prophet says "I am the most perfect human being to ever live, you all must love me more than your family or yourself." Um, hmm... please.. really... no offense intended.. but are you sure that this is not the trick I was asking about earlier? It does seem, well, a little bit self serving , or at least convenient for muhammud. I could say that to people too (but I am sure that they would throw assorted rotten food items at me, but then I am not a real smooth talker).

:hiding:
Hi Malsidab !
Hadiths, in the sense they are used today, are sayings of Muhammed (pbuh) during his life-time; but collected around two centuries after his death by different individuals through personal efforts. They have, in their collections of the sayings of Allah's Messengers (pbuh), included both his public religious sermons as well as private talks with different indiviuals. Only Allah knows the best how far the records of the private sayings of Muhammed (pbuh) are true! None can say for sure whether any said saying was really said by Muhammed (pbuh), as it is quite unlikely that a saying may pass exactly as it was originally said to later generations of nearly 200 years . Secondly, it is inconceivable why private talks other than public addresses on religious matters of the Prophet(pbuh) should form part of religion? These questions have remained unanswered and perhaps will never be answered.

Despite this, we cannot deny the importance of Hadith in Islam. Most of the Hadiths are in essence explanations or clarifications of the Quranic ordainments; but there are a lot of stories, quite conflicting with the Quran, recorded as private stories told by the Prophet(pbuh) to diffrerent individuals. Here comes the devil who has far succeeded in making many people worship the Prophet(pbuh), self-declared saints ( I do not know how a man or woman becomes a saint while no criteria or definition has been available in the Quran or Hadith), and graves etc.

As regards the Hadith on love for Prophet(pbuh), I do not doubt its genuineness, while Allah knows the real truth. But I think the love might be expressed in guarding the Prophet(pbuh) in the warfield from enemies, dying in wars for the cause of Islam at his order, sacrificing properties in the cause of Islam in his life-time and, above all, following his ideals till the Day of Destruction. But now-a-days we find a lot of so-called scholars and their blind followers worshipping Prophet(pbuh) and when they are reminded that they should worship none but Allah, they point out that it is their love for Prophet(pbuh). In other words, in worshipping Prophet(pbuh), they explain, they follow the Hadith. They also quote various other stories, quite conflicting with the Quran, as Hadiths in support of their worshipping the Prophet(pbuh) and graves of good people. They even worship so many live people who iimply that they have talking connection with Allah, meaning they have attained sainthood. But the teachings of the Prophet(pbuh) was to worship Allah alone in the way he worshipped Him. This is all the Islamic or divine code of conduct.
Obviously the misguided are the friends of the devils.

[Ibrar]

read the story about the prophet Muhammad (saw) then you will know every thing about his life!!

[M H Kahn]

:sl:
Muslims love Muhammad (SAW) bec He is the habib Of Allah.(ALLAH loves Muhammad (SAW) more than any body else)
As Muslims love Allah very much therefore they Also Love Allah's love (habib) Hazrat Muhammad (SAW).
:w:

:sl:
I think what you have stated above are mere hearsays not backed by any documents. It is quite natural that Allah will love his appostles and the believing people. But is it necessary to know the extent of Allah's love for His apostle? Or invent stories without any evidence ?

What is the basis of your saying that Muhammad (SAW) is the habib (friend)of Allah? In the Quran, the fully detailed scripture, we are told that he was one of the apostles of Allah and the last of them ? Could you or any one else come forward to give the truth to light?

[M H Kahn]

Evidence:

When Sayiduna 'Umar heard him say,"None of you believes until he loves me more than he loves his children, his parents, and all people," he said, "O Messenger of God, you are indeed dearer to me than all else except my own self."

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "No, by He in whose hand my soul is, not until I am dearer to you than your own self."

At which Sayiduna 'Umar said, "Now, by God, you are dearer to me than my own self!" At which he was told, "Now, 'Umar!" (Meaning now, your faith is complete).

:sl:
What does 'Sayiduna' mean?
Does it mean 'leader' ?
Could you or anyone else explain why many people use the term 'Sayiduna' before the prophet, his companions and other good people?

:hiding: