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kososhahab
02-10-2006, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove
To my knowledge, there are no Scriptures that clearly address the matter of Mary’s age, so saying that she was 12-14 will only be speculations.

Regards
REPLY TO CHRISTIAN DOVE

According to Christian resources, Mary was 12-14 when she got pregnant. You will also see proofs from the Jews' Holiest Book, the Talmud, that girls were married off before at the age of 3, meaning that the Bible's Old Testament has no age limit on when girls can marry, and certainly the Jews had awfully abused it in the past. You will also that Prophets of the Bible who married hundreds of wives and some had even slept with their neighbor's wives and some had exposed their wives in the most disgusting PORNOGRAPHIC way to the entire world in the Bible.

Every time the Muslims talk about Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to the anti-Islamic, the anti-Islamic use Muhammad's marriage with a girl named Aisha as a point against Islam. They claim that since Muhammad was in his 50's and Aisha was only 9 years old, then its ok to call
him a "Child Molester":

Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand
and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in
the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"

Notice here that Aisha's mother and the Muslim women back then were ok with her marriage. It was part of the Arab custom and still is in many of the Muslim and non-Muslim countries today for girls to marry at a very young age. When a girl's body starts showing up (her breasts and her height and physical size), then she would be ready for marriage. This is further elaborated on in the "The Middle Eastern and other Cultures" and "What about Aisha's parents (mon and dad), are they too "Child Molesters"?" and "The life span 1400 years ago was very short"

The Middle Eastern and other Cultures:

If you take the time to study a little bit about the history of the tribes in South America, Middle East, Africa, India and the far eastern Oriental countries 1400 years ago, you would find that many tribes even until today allow the marriage of females at a very young age. Do you think it is fair for you to come today and attack Muhammad and call him a child molester when nobody 1400 years ago from his
tribe had objected to his marriage? Not even the Pagans of Mecca, nor the Jews and Christians of Medina ever objected to it or used it as a point against Islam as anti-Islamic do today.

We all need to understand the culture that we are talking about. Life in the Middle East is a very simple one. It is a lot simpler than what our brain
can imagine, because the simplest to us here in America may be a very difficult or complicated thing to them in the Middle East especially for those folks who live in tribes in the rural areas where they don't have TV, electricity, or any electrical equipment. They live on natural water and survive on what they have available from fruits, vegetables and animals as food.

Parents look at the girl's physical appearance when they prepare her for marriage. They don't care about her age. She could be 9 or 13, it doesn't
matter.

What about Mary, Jesus' Mother peace be upon both of them? How old was she when she
got pregnant?

Not only was it a custom in the Arab society to Engage/Marry a young girl it was also common in the Jewish society. the case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus. Mary had already been "BETHROED" to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man. therefore Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age when she as "BETHROED" to Joseph. we Muslims would never call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer".

According to the Priest of Saint Mary's Catholic Church: "Mary was approximately 14 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus. Joseph, Mary's Husband
is believed to be around 36. Mary was only 13 when she married Joseph. When she first was arranged with Joseph she was between 7 to 9 years old."

According to the "Oxford Dictionary Bible" commentary, Mary (peace be upon her) was was 12 years old when she became impregnated.

The age of sexual consent is still quite low in many places. In Japan, people can legally have sex at age 13, and in Spain they can legally have sex at age 12. (This data comes from the Age of Consent chart, which you can see at: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm)

The Prophet's contemporaries (both enemies and friends) clearly accepted the Prophet's marriage to `Aisha without any problem. We see the evidence for this by the lack of criticism against the marriage until modern times. However, a change in culture caused the change in our times today.

A 40-year-old man having sex with a 14-year-old woman may be a "pedophile" in the USA today, but not in China today (where the age of consent is 14), nor in the USA last century. Biology is a much better standard by which to determine these things in my view, not the arbitrariness of human culture.

In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too. (Source:
http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm)

To those who brought the craps about Muhammad was a child molester read and think before you post anything against him. As you not only against him but all other people in this planet and the worse thing is Mary’s husband, Joseph was a child molester too.

Nashid’s response:

I really don't see what is the big deal. If some people have a puritan outlook on sex and marriage we should not discount Allah and try to satisfy them. As you so nicely said in your post "Biology is a much better standard by which to determine these things in my view, not the arbitrariness of human culture."

Simply:

1. Who created the human body and it's biological functions?
2. Who put within the woman's body the ability to bear children?
3. Who is it that determines when it is ripe for a young girl to make the transition to bear children?

If the answer to all these questions is Allah or God then who are we to question or to judge Allah's doings? Did God put that ability to bear children in a woman's body for it not to be used? Whatever age a woman is when she is ready to bear children has nothing to do with us and everything to do with Allah. We don't know that even married when exactly did Prophet Muhammad consumate his marriage with Aisha. Our social norms of today and our puritanical thinking may say she is not ready but Allah in developing this ability in the woman to bear children said she was.

I will ignore the silliness of people who try to make issues of things for which there are none.


:w:
Reply

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Christian_dove
02-10-2006, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by kososhahab
REPLY TO CHRISTIAN DOVE

According to Christian resources, Mary was 12-14 when she got pregnant.
Again, there are no references to my knowing regarding Mary's age in the New Testament. What the jews has to say about it is not of my concern, most of them don't believe in the New Testament anyway.

You will also see proofs from the Jews' Holiest Book, the Talmud, that girls were married off before at the age of 3, meaning that the Bible's Old Testament has no age limit on when girls can marry, and certainly the Jews had awfully abused it in the past.
I am sorry, but the Talmud has nothing to do with the New Testament (with the stories of Mary). The jews have many books, they even have books on Kaballah (though not all jews believe in it). That doesn't mean those books tells us the truth.


You will also that Prophets of the Bible who married hundreds of wives and some had even slept with their neighbor's wives and some had exposed their wives in the most disgusting PORNOGRAPHIC way to the entire world in the Bible.
Show me where I can read about these prophets.
Every time the Muslims talk about Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to the anti-Islamic, the anti-Islamic use Muhammad's marriage with a girl named Aisha as a point against Islam. They claim that since Muhammad was in his 50's and Aisha was only 9 years old, then its ok to call
him a "Child Molester":
You are generalizing, not all christians are concerned with this.
Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand
and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in
the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"
Yeah, well to me that is sickening. But it is your right to believe that it (at that time) was okay, and it is my right to be disgusted. We will never agree on this matter, so why continue to nag about it?

Notice here that Aisha's mother and the Muslim women back then were ok with her marriage. It was part of the Arab custom and still is in many of the Muslim and non-Muslim countries today for girls to marry at a very young age. When a girl's body starts showing up (her breasts and her height and physical size), then she would be ready for marriage. This is further elaborated on in the "The Middle Eastern and other Cultures" and "What about Aisha's parents (mon and dad), are they too "Child Molesters"?" and "The life span 1400 years ago was very short"
One of the things westerners have always reacted to is the supression of women in Islam. Of course it was allright by Aishas mother, if she said no she would probably be flogged. It was a very strict society and totally dominated by men, as it continues to be.. Now, I am not saying that women had such great privilegies in jewish or christian cultures at that time either, they were probably supressed to, but not anymore, it is 2006 now.
The Middle Eastern and other Cultures:

If you take the time to study a little bit about the history of the tribes in South America, Middle East, Africa, India and the far eastern Oriental countries 1400 years ago, you would find that many tribes even until today allow the marriage of females at a very young age. Do you think it is fair for you to come today and attack Muhammad and call him a child molester when nobody 1400 years ago from his
tribe had objected to his marriage? Not even the Pagans of Mecca, nor the Jews and Christians of Medina ever objected to it or used it as a point against Islam as anti-Islamic do today.
We don't know much about those cultures, but today we know that a woman has the right to decide over her own body, it was given her by Allah and all men and women are equal and should have equal rights. When a girl who is not fully mentally developed (even if she has had her first period) has to mary someone at young age, she clearly doesn't get these rights. She is put in a role that someone else has chosen for her. Now, in your culture that may sound fine, but not for me. I have seen the same thing in Africa when spending time there, however they are progressing and women of some african tribe cultures now goes to court in order to cancel such marriages claiming their parents had no right forcing them to get married. And in court, they actually are winning these cases. We have the same problem here amongst those from the muslim pakistani culture. Some girls are allowed to get their education and get to chose their own husbands, which is good because they have muslim parents who understand that in a western society, a marriage should not and cannot be forced upon someone, not even their own children. And after all, most parents want their children to be happy, right? However, some do still practise these forced marriages, and we have plenty of girls who had to change their names and flee from their families to other cities to avoid these marriages and even avoid being killed by their own family for bringing "shame" on them. Authorities give these girls/women protection and a safe place to live.
We all need to understand the culture that we are talking about. Life in the Middle East is a very simple one. It is a lot simpler than what our brain
can imagine, because the simplest to us here in America may be a very difficult or complicated thing to them in the Middle East especially for those folks who live in tribes in the rural areas where they don't have TV, electricity, or any electrical equipment. They live on natural water and survive on what they have available from fruits, vegetables and animals as food.
Yes, but everyone has to develope. We cannot continue to live in the middle ages, the world is evolving and it is evolving according to the plans of Allah. Now we are able to find medicines and cures for most deseases (thank God for that) and we can use our natural resurces because we have developed technology. If we where to stay the same we did several hundred years ago, the average age of a human would still be 40, not 80 as it is here.
Parents look at the girl's physical appearance when they prepare her for marriage. They don't care about her age. She could be 9 or 13, it doesn't
matter.
The bonding between families was a lot more important in the old ages and there were also several other reason as to why one would prefer to get rid of ones children at an early age. Maybe food was scarce and in that case it would be easier for a family having one less mouth to feed, hence leaving their daughters to other families was an easy way out. Today we can allow our children to grow up without facing the same risks and consequenses as before. A girl at the age of 9 (or 13) may look older , but mentally there is no doubt she has a long way to go before she is an adult. I am not saying that you should dump your faith in Islam, I am just saying that a little progress wouldn't hurt. We (meaning christians) have done it, so should you. Take into consideration that christianity is a far older religion than islam.
What about Mary, Jesus' Mother peace be upon both of them? How old was she when she
got pregnant?
Noone knows.
Not only was it a custom in the Arab society to Engage/Marry a young girl it was also common in the Jewish society. the case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus. Mary had already been "BETHROED" to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man. therefore Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age when she as "BETHROED" to Joseph. we Muslims would never call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer".
I don't believe in non-biblical sources when it comes to these things. It is like asking you to stop your friday prayers because the hindus don't do it. It wouldn't matter to you what the hindus believe, right?

According to the Priest of Saint Mary's Catholic Church: "Mary was approximately 14 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus. Joseph, Mary's Husband
is believed to be around 36. Mary was only 13 when she married Joseph. When she first was arranged with Joseph she was between 7 to 9 years old."
The catholics have corrupted christianity from day one. They have even fouled christians to change the holy day from saturday to sunday, they worship and pray to idols and dead people. The only way i could use catholic faith as a source for information is when I need to find out what NOT to believe. The catholics even killed people who believed that this planet was round, stating it was flat like a pancake... Not to mention the enourmous amount of catholic priests who have been accused of homosexuality and child abuse. Brrrr.. They give me the creeps...
According to the "Oxford Dictionary Bible" commentary, Mary (peace be upon her) was was 12 years old when she became impregnated.
Not so. As I said, I have never seen any reference to her age in the Bible.
The age of sexual consent is still quite low in many places. In Japan, people can legally have sex at age 13, and in Spain they can legally have sex at age 12. (This data comes from the Age of Consent chart, which you can see at: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm)
That may be so, but you cannot mary anyone in Spain at the age of 13. When it comes to sex, these are matters that parents has to talk to their children about. Not all are religious, and not all consider that marriage is needed before one can have sex. They have to define what is good behaviour and what is not. Some parents are not good parents, and from time to time, problems occure.

The Prophet's contemporaries (both enemies and friends) clearly accepted the Prophet's marriage to `Aisha without any problem. We see the evidence for this by the lack of criticism against the marriage until modern times. However, a change in culture caused the change in our times today.

A 40-year-old man having sex with a 14-year-old woman may be a "pedophile" in the USA today, but not in China today (where the age of consent is 14), nor in the USA last century. Biology is a much better standard by which to determine these things in my view, not the arbitrariness of human culture.
A 14 year old is not a woman, she is a child. China is perhaps the most anti-religious of all countries today. They have been communists for a long time and religion has been forbidden there for years.. Mao was a psychopat who enjoyed seeing people suffer, some say it even gave him sexual pleasure. So their "standards" shouldn't be taken very seriously.
When you use biology as a standard, there will ALWAYS be horny men who will use this for their advantage. Hence, no doubt, it is much better to have a law about it, in which noone will be confused.
In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too. (Source:
http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm)
Yes, but we have moved on and so has USA.
To those who brought the craps about Muhammad was a child molester read and think before you post anything against him. As you not only against him but all other people in this planet and the worse thing is Mary’s husband, Joseph was a child molester too.
No, he was not as there is no biblical evidence of this.

Nashid’s response:

I really don't see what is the big deal. If some people have a puritan outlook on sex and marriage we should not discount Allah and try to satisfy them. As you so nicely said in your post "Biology is a much better standard by which to determine these things in my view, not the arbitrariness of human culture."

Simply:

1. Who created the human body and it's biological functions?
2. Who put within the woman's body the ability to bear children?
3. Who is it that determines when it is ripe for a young girl to make the transition to bear children?

If the answer to all these questions is Allah or God then who are we to question or to judge Allah's doings? Did God put that ability to bear children in a woman's body for it not to be used? Whatever age a woman is when she is ready to bear children has nothing to do with us and everything to do with Allah. We don't know that even married when exactly did Prophet Muhammad consumate his marriage with Aisha. Our social norms of today and our puritanical thinking may say she is not ready but Allah in developing this ability in the woman to bear children said she was.

I will ignore the silliness of people who try to make issues of things for which there are none.

1. Who created the human body and it's biological functions?

If you are religious, you would have to say God. But there is no evidence as to wheter there actually is a God or not. I do believe, but others don't. Many people believe that we are a result of evolution, or crevolution.

2. Who put within the woman's body the ability to bear children?

If you are religious, you would have to say God. But there is no evidence as to wheter there is a God or not. I do believe, but others don't. Many people believe that we are a result of evolution, or crevolution.

3. Who is it that determines when it is ripe for a young girl to make the transition to bear children?

At least not someone in a book written hundreds of years ago. There are things in the Bible that we do not follow today as we consider it relevant only to those who lived at that time.

My personal view is that one should wait until the girl is old enough to understand the consequense of having sex and/or getting married, and then let her decide herself. Women are the creations of Allah, and they should be respected as such, not forced into something they do not comprehend/understand.

Kind regards.
Reply

HeiGou
02-10-2006, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by kososhahab
REPLY TO CHRISTIAN DOVE
Well I am not Christian Dove, but I am passing....

According to Christian resources, Mary was 12-14 when she got pregnant. You will also see proofs from the Jews' Holiest Book, the Talmud, that girls were married off before at the age of 3, meaning that the Bible's Old Testament has no age limit on when girls can marry, and certainly the Jews had awfully abused it in the past. You will also that Prophets of the Bible who married hundreds of wives and some had even slept with their neighbor's wives and some had exposed their wives in the most disgusting PORNOGRAPHIC way to the entire world in the Bible.
1. Which Christian resources?

2. Where in the Talmud are girls married off befire the age of three? There are very few mentions of the age that which people got married in the OT, but even I know the story of Rachel and Leah. Do you?

3. Which Prophets of the Bible slept with their neighbor's wives?

4. Which Prophets of the Bible exposed their wives in "the most disgusting PORNOGRAPHIC way to the entire world"?

5. Are you happy defaming these Prophets?

Notice here that Aisha's mother and the Muslim women back then were ok with her marriage.
Muhammed was their Prophet. Muhammed was the perfect man to them. Why wouldn't they be happy? Would they have been happy in other circumstances? Who knows?

It was part of the Arab custom and still is in many of the Muslim and non-Muslim countries today for girls to marry at a very young age.
Where is the evidence that this was an Arab custom? Girls marry this young after Islam. But did they before it? What is the evidence that Arabs did this before Muhammed?

Not only was it a custom in the Arab society to Engage/Marry a young girl it was also common in the Jewish society. the case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus.
In non-Biblical sources? Which would these be?

we Muslims would never call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer".
I don't know, you've been pretty rude about some prophets above. Sure you wouldn't?

According to the Priest of Saint Mary's Catholic Church: "Mary was approximately 14 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus. Joseph, Mary's Husband
is believed to be around 36. Mary was only 13 when she married Joseph. When she first was arranged with Joseph she was between 7 to 9 years old."

According to the "Oxford Dictionary Bible" commentary, Mary (peace be upon her) was was 12 years old when she became impregnated.
Which priest? What Oxford Dictionary Bible? Care to provide evidence for these claims?

A 40-year-old man having sex with a 14-year-old woman may be a "pedophile" in the USA today, but not in China today (where the age of consent is 14),
No it isn't as it happens. You may not marry until you are 20 in China and a woman. Pre-marital sex is punishable by jail terms in re-education camps.

(The law is not widely observed)
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-10-2006, 04:57 PM
I grow tired of getting sidetracked, so I have once again moved posts from the Aisha thread to a seperate thread for discussion.
Reply

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