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morrissey
04-12-2005, 05:36 AM
Ishaq: 243 I have heard the apostle say: [ Whoever wants to see SATAN should Look at Nabtal ]. He was a sturdy black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks. He used to come and talk with the prophet and listen to him. He would carry what he had said to the hypocrites.[ Nabtal said, Muhammad is all Ears ]. If anyone tells him something he [ Muhammad ],believes it. Allah sent down concerning him: to those who annoy the apostle there is a painful punishment. Quran said, Verse 9: 61 Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, if a Black man comes to you, his heart is more gross than a Donkey's.
What is your interpretation of this?
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kadafi
04-12-2005, 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by morrissey
What is your interpretation of this?
My interpretation is that you copied it from an Anti-Islamic site and that the above quote is utterly fabricated. Perhaps, if you didn't browse through these anti-islamic sites, but authentic islamic sites, you also might have rejected it.

But then again, it's the norm of many non-Muslims to get their information from many anti-islamic websites that are riddled with lies and distortions before they even actually touch a authentic Islamic website.

How did Islam approach the problem of racism?

Racism is one of the severest diseases of human society in this age. Everyone remembers how black Africans were transported across the oceans, packed in specially designed ships, thought of and treated exactly like livestock. They were all made slaves, forced to change their names and religion and language, were never entitled to hope for true freedom, and were refused the least of human rights. Because among Western peoples the attitude to non-Westerners has changed very little in modern times, the political and social condition of the black people remains, even where they live amid the native Westerners – Americans or Europeans – as theoretically equal fellow-citizens, that of despised inferiors.

When God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, was raised as a Prophet, the same kind of racism, under the name of tribalism, was prevalent in Makka. The Quraysh considered themselves in particular, and Arabs in general, superior to all the other peoples of the world. God’s Messenger came with the Divine Message and proclaimed that no Arab is superior over a non-Arab, and no white is superior over black,24 and superiority is by righteousness and God-fearing alone (sura al-Hujurat, 49.13). He also declared that even if an Abyssinian black Muslim were to rule over Muslims, he should be obeyed.25

God’s Messenger eradicated the problem of racial or colour discrimination so successfully that, for example, ‘Umar once said of Bilal: ‘Bilal is our master, and was emancipated by our master Abu Bakr.’26 Zayd ibn Haritha was a black slave. God’s Messenger emancipated him and, before the banning of adoption by the Qur’an, adopted him. He married him to Zaynab bint Jahsh, one of the noblest women of the Muslim community. After all these honors he conferred on him, he also appointed him as a commander over the Muslim army he sent against the Byzantine Empire and which included the leading figures of the Companions such as Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and others.27 The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, appointed Zayd’s son, Usama, to command the army he formed just before his passing away.

During his Caliphate, ‘Umar paid a higher salary to Usama than to his own son, ‘Abd Allah, who asked why. ‘Umar answered: ‘My son, I do so, because I know well that God’s Messenger loved Usama’s father more than yours and Usama himself more than you’.28

Zayd ibn Haritha commanded an army in which the noblest of the Quraysh, like Ja’far ibn Abu Talib, the cousin of God’s Messenger, and Khalid ibn Walid, the invincible general of the age, were present. The army commanded by Usama, Zayd’s son, included leading figures among the Companions such as Khalid, Abu ‘Ubayda, Talha, Zubayr and others. This established in the hearts and minds that superiority is not by birth or colour or blood, but by God-fearing and righteousness.

24. I. Hanbal, 5.441.

25. Muslim, “ ‘Imara,” 37.

26. I. Hajar, al-Isaba, 1.165.

27. Muslim, “Fada’il al-Sahaba,” 63.

28. Ibn Sa‘d, 4 :70; Ibn Hajar, 1 :564.


http://www.islamanswers.net/moreAbout/racism.htm


Quite odd that you seem to be accusin' Islam of racism while Islam is the only religion that eradicated this problem. Refer to the Islamic history and the Glorious Qur'an.
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morrissey
04-12-2005, 07:29 AM
I could totally say the same for the anti-Jewish quotes I have borne witness to on this site.

completely unfounded, absolutely no proof, most likely fabrications.

So why are they utilised as the only 'proofs' you can offer me to prove Judaism as corrupt?

You dont like me doing it, but you expect me to bow down and heed the supposed truth when you quote equal rubbish at me when trying to convince me that the Jews corrupted their Torah and that the Talmud is racist towards non-Jews.

I suppose you guys might know how it feels for the Jew now, when you do the same to them.

If you cant take it, dont dish it out to others.
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kadafi
04-12-2005, 07:32 AM
Originally Posted by morrissey
I could totally say the same for the anti-Jewish quotes I have borne witness to on this site.

completely unfounded, absolutely no proof, most likely fabrications.

So why are they utilised as the only 'proofs' you can offer me to prove Judaism as corrupt?

You dont like me doing it, but you expect me to bow down and heed the supposed truth when you quote equal rubbish at me when trying to convince me that the Jews corrupted their Torah and that the Talmud is racist towards non-Jews.

I suppose you guys might know how it feels for the Jew now, when you do the same to them.

If you cant take it, dont dish it out to others.
Greetings morrissey,

I did not quote any anti-Jewish quotes and if you're goin' to accuse me of that, I suggest you provide evidence for this serious accusation. In fact, everything what I've stated regardin' the Torah have been left unanswered.

See:http://www.islamicboard.com/showthre...2&page=7&pp=10
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morrissey
04-12-2005, 07:37 AM
Lets re-write something you said to me:


My interpretation is that you copied it from an Anti-Islamic site and that the above quote is utterly fabricated. Perhaps, if you didn't browse through these anti-islamic sites, but authentic islamic sites, you also might have rejected it.

But then again, it's the norm of many non-Muslims to get their information from many anti-islamic websites that are riddled with lies and distortions before they even actually touch a authentic Islamic website.
My interpretation is that you copied it from an Anti-Jewish site and that the above quote is utterly fabricated. Perhaps, if you didn't browse through these anti-Jewish sites, but authentic Jewish sites, you also might have rejected it.

But then again, it's the norm of many non-Jews to get their information from many anti-Jewish websites that are riddled with lies and distortions before they even actually touch a authentic Jewish website.
I might use this response when people misquote the Talmud and other Jewish texts to me on this site....thanks, you have helped me word my response over in the "can a Jew help me with these verses please?" thread in the comparitive religions section here on this forum

thanks :D
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morrissey
04-12-2005, 07:50 AM
Originally Posted by kadafi
Greetings morrissey,

I did not quote any anti-Jewish quotes and if you're goin' to accuse me of that, I suggest you provide evidence for this serious accusation. In fact, everything what I've stated regardin' the Torah have been left unanswered.

See:http://www.islamicboard.com/showthre...2&page=7&pp=10

Im definately not accusing you personally, I just wanted your response.

It teaches me alot. I've had a few of the equivilant anti-Jewish propaganda chucked at me, now I know how to respond.

See, I am learning something from you guys!
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-12-2005, 10:12 PM
Ibn Ishaq is not held as an authentic source. It contains many unauthentic narrations as well. If you wish to say the Talmud is unauthentic be my guest.
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morrissey
04-12-2005, 10:49 PM
I never said the Talmud was not authentic. You like to imagine things that you think people are thinking dont you, are you psychic?

The Talmud is one of the most misquoted texts in history, and the craziest thing about the mistranslations and misquotes is that those who make them cannot even speak a word of the language the Talmud is written in. Great authorities they are - what a joke!

You all appear assume the Torah and Talmud are corrupt in the identical fashion that we are shown passages from the Quran and other Islamic writings, and assume that the Quran is corrupt.

Put yourselves in our shoes for a minute - can you not see that you have one rule for the way you interpret things, and another rule for how we interpret things?

The sole reason I placed this quote on the forum was because identical slanderous rubbish was being presented to me about the Jews.

You quote this passage and that passage, this scholar and that scholar....but none that I place any worth on, just like you dont credit the quote I used above.

Can you not see how it's the same thing?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-12-2005, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by morrissey
I never said the Talmud was not authentic. You like to imagine things that you think people are thinking dont you, are you psychic?
You made the flawed analogy between your failed responses on the Talmud and our response on such fabricated narrations.

I responded to that analogy.

The Talmud is one of the most misquoted texts in history, and the craziest thing about the mistranslations and misquotes is that those who make them cannot even speak a word of the language the Talmud is written in. Great authorities they are - what a joke!
Please post in the appropriate section. If you wish to prove a mistranslation, then do so, but I haven't seen any evidence given by you, only opinion.

You quote this passage and that passage, this scholar and that scholar....but none that I place any worth on, just like you dont credit the quote I used above.

Can you not see how it's the same thing?
I am sure you can appreciate the difference between quoting the Talmud and quoting scholars.

Please post in the appropriate thread. If you have any further questions relating to this topic, then please post them.

Otherwise, the topic has been settled.

:w:
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morrissey
04-12-2005, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
If you wish to say the Talmud is unauthentic be my guest.
Then comments such as these are also irrelevant to the discussion.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-13-2005, 12:26 AM
You're right, but it was in direct connection with the point you were making in this thread, nevertheless, it was necessary to advise you to discontinue the topic diverging in various threads.
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morrissey
04-13-2005, 12:50 AM
I'm sorry then, Ansar, I have this awful habit of going on tangents when they are provided for me to follow.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-13-2005, 01:24 AM
No problem. Just try to focus a little bit more on the specific points you are making in your post.

Thanks for your cooperation.

:w:
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Silver Pearl
04-13-2005, 05:35 AM
peace Morissey,

I have to say not in a million years did i expect one to stoop so low just to mae an invalid point. Kadafi has beautifully answered your queries....no need to dwell on it seeing as your 'point' has been refuted. May i add your post didn't offend me the slightest bit...one shouldn't get offended if they know what people post is incorrect or inacurate.

regards,

CE
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morrissey
04-13-2005, 09:36 PM
I know, his beautiful answer enabled me to know how to word things when responding the the baseless slanderous claims you make about the Jewish people and their scriptures.

The cup is either half empty or half full. You can choose to take a positive or negative veiw about something.

I actually took a neutral view, as using merely my logic, I can guess that such a claim is rubbish, but it is important to verify it. Like it is important to verify the rubbish interpretations you attribute to the Talmud.

But this is the wrong thread to discuss your cup half empty approach to Talmudic interpretation.

I had absolutely no opinion on the 'quote' I gave, all I did was ask a question. Can you point out any emotion that I put in that question.

This is a refutations thread, I was merely contributing fodder for refutation. Isnt that what this thread's sole function is?
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kadafi
04-14-2005, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Ibn Ishaq is not held as an authentic source. It contains many unauthentic narrations as well. If you wish to say the Talmud is unauthentic be my guest.
:sl: brother,

Ibn Ishaq has many authenthic isnads in his hadiths. The problem is this one is a completely fabricated one. I wouldn't even dare to touch the translated works of of the likes such as Ibn Khaldun, Ishaq, Tabari (who uses the materials of Ishaq). More at:

What you should know about Tabari
http://www.load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Tabari

Conclusion:
While dealing and/or refuting Christian missionaries, Muslims must refuse to accept the so-called Tabarî and Ibn Ishaq’s quotes and/or reference since it is always from the biased English translation done by a non-Muslim (mainly Orientalist or a zealot Christian missionary). Thereafter, Muslims must demand a complete and accurate quote from Tabari’s and/or Ibn Ishaq’s books directly, provided they are in harmony with the teachings of Islaam found in Glorious Qur'an, Sunnah (including authentic Ahadeeth صحيح احاديث. This rule must be used and/or applied on all others quotes and/or references used by anti-Islaam forces as well.

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-14-2005, 11:11 PM
:sl: Yes, I read that before, I was just pointing out that overall, it contains many unauthentic narrations as well.

But JazakAllah khair for the reminder.

:w:
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